Tag: Southdown

Southdown – Leyland Titan PD2 – MUF 456 – 756

MUF 456

Southdown Motor Services Ltd
1953
Leyland Titan PD2/12
Northern Counties H30/26RD

Taken in the summer of 1963 in the Old Steine area of Brighton this photo is of Southdown 756 one of a batch of ten Leyland PD2/12’s with Northern Counties H30/26RD bodies No’s 755-764 delivered in 1953. These always appeared wider and heavier than any of the other four body builders used by Southdown on their PD2/12 fleet No’s 701-812 the others being Leyland (my personal favourites) 701-754, Park Royal 765-776, Beadle (on Park Royal frames) 777-788 and East Lancs 789-812 Southdown’s last half cabs. Prior to these came No 700 the well known coach bodied PD2/12 with Northern Counties FCH28/16RD body which was trialled on London express services from Eastbourne somewhat unsuccessfully due to body roll and a sluggish performance. This was Southdown’s only 4 bay D/D body and also had small extra windows above the lower deck half drops and quarter lights in the roof.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave

19/05/14 – 09:19

What an odd mixture of styles. The panelling and the roof look like a throwback to the 1930s the foremost and rearmost nearside upper deck windows and the half drop windows have a touch of RT about them yet the front upper deck windows are totally NCME.

Phil Blinkhorn

19/05/14 – 15:39

The Southdown PD2s (701-812) were buses I grew up with in Portsmouth, being seen on a daily basis, although not so frequently used due to my school route being along Copnor Road. Southdown did not have a regular service along that road, so I relied on Portsmouth Corporation routes. The NCME members of that series were my “least favourites”, as they all seemed rather “dark” inside. Were the windows smaller? However, they must have been good buses, as Southdown had “discovered” NCME with some of it’s Guy utilities and early post war Arab IIIs, and followed later by 285 Queen Mary’s. When they were new, we didn’t know them as Queen Mary’s, though. I only became familiar with the term many years later (c.1979). Diesel Dave also refers to 700, the PD2/NCME coach. It’s final years were spent at Bognor, and I saw it several times parked in the yard at the back. It didn’t seem well used! Rather a shame when other operators like Ribble and EYMS made good use of a small fleet of double-deck coaches. It’s a puzzle that Southdown didn’t succeed when others could, and did.

Michael Hampton

19/05/14 – 17:59

I also grew up with the Southdown PD2/12’s on Route 22 (Brighton – Midhurst) travelling to school at Steyning, and vesting grandparents in Brighton. NCME bodied ones were my least favourite, and agree with Michael that they always appeared dark inside, probably due to the brown rexine panelling and varnished wood strip below the window line, and also the half glazed doors. Southdown specified half drop windows up to 1955. All 1956 deliveries of PD2’s and Arab IV’s had sliding vents. My favourites were the East Lancs versions. These had fully glazed sliding doors, and the platform areas were finished in green rather than the murky brown previously used.

Roy Nicholson

09/01/15 – 05:52

Like Michael Hampton, I also grew up in Portsmouth riding the PD2/12’s. A big thank you to Diesel Dave for the data on the bodywork. One thing that has been bugging me for years – which of the bodies had the sliding door?

Frank Bulbeck

Southdown – Leyland PD2 – KUF 700 – 700


Copyright Cliff Essex – Flickr

Southdown Motor Services Ltd
1950
Leyland PD2/12
Northern Counties FCH28/16RD

In the post about Southdown’s Leyland Titan PD2 756 (MUF 456), Diesel Dave made mention of Southdown’s one-off 700 and Michael Hampton said he saw it in Bognor Depot’s Yard.
KUF 700 was Southdown’s 700, a 1950 Leyland Titan PD2/12 with Northern Counties FCH28/16RD bodywork and was intended to be the first of a fleet of such vehicles for use on express services from the South Coast to London.
It began work on the Eastbourne to London service, but proved totally unsuitable, suffering excessive body-roll and under-performance, being overweight and therefore under-powered. By 1952, it was relegated to private hire and bus work.
This photo was taken at Bognor Depot in 1959, with the bus still looking remarkably chipper and still possessing its coach seats, although with its roof lights painted over.
In this limbo situation, it somehow survived in service until 1966, when it was taken into Portslade works for conversion to a breakdown tender, but the work remained unfinished and the vehicle languished there for some six years, eventually being scrapped there in 1973. Sixteen years active life for a bus, which was somewhat of an embarrassment, could be considered quite an achievement, as it happens.
The lower front bears a definite resemblance to Southdown’s later Queen Mary’s and the body, as a whole, still has the overall look of NCME’s pre-war models, notably the Leicester AEC Renowns of 1939, a design not destined to last much longer.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Chris Hebbron

15/01/15 – 06:10

KUF 700_2

It is wonderful to see Chris’s colour photo of Southdown 700 as I only have a B/W photo which I bought in 1958 from the late Eric Surfleet of Lancing. This shows 700 on an excursion still in it’s original livery which had green window surrounds and the usual dark green lining on the horizontal beading also the corner bumpers on the front and rear,the bumpers are still on the front at least even after it’s repaint. The top deck coving panels were I believe always translucent and not clear glass. Sad to say despite living in the area at the time, and attending school in Hailsham which was on it’s route, I don’t recall seeing this fine vehicle.

Diesel Dave

15/01/15 – 09:31

Thanks to Chris for the great colour shot of 700, and Diesel Dave for it in it’s earlier more public life. As I said in the earlier posting, my usual sightings of it were c. 1960-62, and it was always in the Bognor yard. But it was always in a different position, so clearly saw some use. It does seem strange that East Yorkshire and Ribble operated a small fleet of such vehicles with (presumably) some success, while Southdown, usually effective in their plans, found they could not make 700 work on the coach work originally envisaged. A fleet of such vehicles on the 31 had to wait until the Queen Mary PD3s arrived, and they didn’t have coach seats!

Michael Hampton

15/01/15 – 10:32

What a wonderful photo – thanks Chris for posting it. As many readers will know, this vehicle has generated interested on the SCT61 website and it is good to see these two further views of this magnificent coach. When it was downgraded to bus duties, did it keep the luggage areas in the lower saloon? If so, a capacity of just 16 must have been a major factor in its demise. A similar fate befell the East Yorkshire and Ribble d/d coaches but at least they managed to get 20 and 22 seats respectively in their lower saloons.

Paul Haywood

15/01/15 – 11:21

Following Michael H’s comments, here’s a photo of a Leyland PD2 49-seat Ribble White Lady. There were 50 of them, in two batches, with bodies (5-bay) by Burlingham and 4-bay East Lancs ones. There seems an irony to put a lowbridge body on a so-called coach, but it did not seem to affect custom!. Ribble – //tinyurl.com/os4f47k  
And here’s a photo of East Yorkshire’s Leyland PD2 with Roe normal height body. East Yorkshire – //www.sct61.org.uk/ey568  
There was something very satisfying about double-deck coach design of this period, even conventional half-cab types. I recall the West Yorkshire version of a Bristol K6B Scarborough Express, way down the OBP page, the upper photo, not the lower abomination! SEE //tinyurl.com/ono24n2

Chris Hebbron

23/02/15 – 14:31

I remember 700 KUF 700 very well as a school boy in Bognor yard where I spent most of my after school time. Bob Mustchin the foreman in the garage took me under his wing and many a time I helped him shunt it around the yard when it been dumped from a private hire or bus relief working. This led to me buying one of the left luggage offices D689 HCD 449 which has been fantastically restored now by Bob Gray. The yard has a vivid memory for me with a flint stone boundary with access only through the bus station rear doors until the retail development created an entrance from Queeensway giving access directly into the yard and changing the in/out pattern for local services and coaches. I remember the transition from TD5’s TS7/8’s with PD2 1’s through to underfloor Leylands and the arrival of PD2/12’s to PD 3’s

Clifford Jones

13/03/15 – 07:12

I have posted my memories of this vehicle already however I would like to add that the B/W photo of it showing an excursion blind in taken in Bognor Regis High Street with 700 heading west as Lloyds bank is in the background. My family banked there with the International store visible to the right including trees in the foreground which were a feature in the High Street of that era. I have a photo of 700 solitarily languishing in the corner of Bognor yard against a corner of the flint wall overshadowing the Queensway development which would shortly see the demise of the wall. My memories of Southdown in Bognor my birth place are being prepared.

Clifford Jones

13/03/15 – 16:52

I, for one, will look forward to your jottings of Southdown in Bognor Regis, Clifford.
I lived in Pompey for 20 years, the Western boundary of Southdown. I travelled on its two most Westerly routes (I think), from Portsmouth to Warsash and Portsmouth to the somewhat mundane place name, Meon Hut!
Your mention of International Stores reminds me of all the other grocery stores of the time: Home & Colonial, Pearks, Maypole Dairies, David Greig and, of course, Sainsbury, before it became a supermarket. Other, later stores/supermarkets were MacFisheries (our first local supermarket), Victor Value (bought by Tesco), Bejam, Kwiksave and Somerfield. But I digress!

Chris Hebbron

14/03/15 – 12:50

Chris, you left out Lipton’s, another of the names from our nostalgic past before the present age of bland uniformity.

Roger Cox

14/03/15 – 16:14

Chris, the place you are thinking of west of Portsmouth on a Southdown route is the West Meon Hut. It’s a pub at the junction of the A32 and A272. The actual West Meon village is nearby. A friend of mine once owned an RM stored near here, and it could be a useful venue once we returned from a rally day when the RM had finished it’s day out. I don’t think the Southdown route terminated here, though short workings might have done. It was the 38, and in the 1950’s I remember Guy Arab utilities thundering up Southwick Hill Road out of Cosham heading for Southwick, Wickham and Droxford. At some point a railway closure entered the picture, and the route was extended to Alton. However, the usual buses then were saloons, such as the 1500 series Royal Tigers or 620 series Tiger Cubs. Strangely, I don’t recall these so well, but have seen photos in various Southdown books in my collection. I too will be interested to see Clifford’s Bognor Regis notes – I was always fascinated with the occasional visit to Chichester and Bognor with their own set of routes down to the Witterings, Sidlesham, etc.

Michael Hampton

16/03/15 – 06:43

Roger C – I should have remembered Liptons, but there wasn’t one around my area.
Michael H – It was a 1500 series Royal Tiger around 1964, after they’d been converted to OMO operation. I went with GF and friend with his GF, too. We had lunch at the pub there.
The bus performed well, but was a bit creaky, I recall. Nice-looking vehicles, though.
You mention the austerity Guy Arabs thundering up the hill. Did they have 5 or 6LW engines, or a mixture of both, or did Southdown upgrade them at some time. I only travelled on them to and from the Hayling Ferry, when they were open-toppers and never noticed what they were on dead-flat Hayling Island!

Chris Hebbron

16/03/15 – 11:54

Chris, I don’t recall whether the Guys I remember had 5LW or 6LW engines. I don’t have access to my SEC books at the moment, but I think Southdown had a mixture as new in the war, and they did swap engines around afterwards, too. Will have to investigate later, unless others have more immediate knowledge.

Michael Hampton

17/03/15 – 06:16

Economic, Grandways, Gateway (didn’t they become Somerfield?), Hillards, and perhaps most recently Jacksons. I think Economic, Grandways, and Hillards were local to the Yorkshire area. I wonder if there is an “Old Grocery Photos” website where people are posting “not really to do with grocery shops but County Motors . . .”. Local ITV stations seem to have disappeared. One, very small, thing that seems to have bucked the trend is bus stop flags: the old Department for the Environment standard style of the early 1970s now seems to be in retreat in many places . . . such a shame about the buses stopping at them.

Philip Rushworth

17/03/15 – 16:49

They must be Yorkshire ones, Philip, I’ve only heard of Gateway/Somerfield, the latter of which has become the Co-op. I believe, which we’ve all heard of!
The simple black on white bus stop flags are disappearing fast, in favour of ‘busy’ multi-coloured ones where the bus image is hardly discernable; at least that’s ‘the Stagecoach way’. I thought the original ones were an early attempt at helping those with impaired vision – they certainly don’t help now!

Chris Hebbron

18/03/15 – 06:58

This is only the beginning… Maypole, Meadow Dairy, Gallons, Thrift Stores, Melias, Home & Colonial… then there were the prominent grocers/bakers in every town – Arthur Davy in Sheffield, Hagenbachs, Hodgson & Hepworths in Doncaster, Vaux Bros in Ponty (Chris), Websters in Wakefield, Silvios in Bradford… how do I connect this to Old Bus Photos? Many Doncaster Corporation Buses had a big sunburst tween decks, advertising Dysons Flour, and these seemed always to be on derelict deckers in scrapyards or the “bus” ? canteen at Marshgate in Doncaster which peeped over the North Bridge Wall. How accurate is that bit of nostalgia therapy?

Joe

18/03/15 – 06:59

I’ve found some facts about the utility Guys and here are a few pertinent ones.
Southdown received 100 examples: only the first two were Arab I’s. About 25% in total received 6LW engines, randomly supplied. Many 6LW-engined ones had engine swaps with 5LW engines before disposal. Not all open-topped conversions were fitted with 6LW engines, but those climbing to Beachy Head were.
All the Arabs had gone by 1964. One survives into preservation.

Chris Hebbron

19/03/15 – 07:11

Thanks Chris H for the 5LW/6LW info – I’m away from my resources until the end of the month! The Portsmouth Arabs may have been 5LWs as delivered as Pompey is a flat area (Southwick Hill Road being a minor exception, although all cars bound for Waterlooville and northwards would have had the slog up the main London Road). However by the late 50’s those used on the 38 to Droxford etc may well have been upgraded. Just listening to some of the Guy Arabs in the sounds section of this site is an aural delight, too.

Michael Hampton

19/03/15 – 07:12

Bus stop signs: The bus logo on the stop plate was not for visibility. When introduced it formed part of the TRO (Traffic regulation order) that made parking restrictions enforceable – which is why it has the same outline as the bus on bus lane signs. Whether legislation has changed since I don’t know.

Alan Murray-Rust

12/04/15 – 07:10

Thank you for your comments while waiting for my observations. I was born in Bognor Regis in 1947 when my parents moved down from Croydon. My mother had a dress making shop with a flat above opposite the General Post Office which is how I became a bus enthusiast looking out of the window at the Southdown pre war buses stopping opposite and the occasional appearance of a Green Goddess fire engine when the siren went off. My memories are currently being compiled taking me from an enthusiast to a bus operator in Brighton. Look out for it on Classic Bus web site SCT’6.

Clifford Jones

09/01/16 – 17:46

Hi, just seen this article and comments. I remember this bus being in the Bognor area when I was young and for a while it ran on the 31 Portsmouth to Brighton service, and at the time was common knowledge that it had been exhibited at the Festival of Britain on the South Bank, showing the future of British Transport. Assuming this is correct then it is a pity it came to a disappointing end.

Brian Allsopp

10/01/16 – 05:57

Alan, with regard to your post of March 2015 [which I seem to have missed] in respect of the bus stop poles and signs, they are in the Department For Transport’s (or whatever that outfit is called this week!) Traffic Signs Manual, which prescribes the assorted outlines typefaces and dimensions. The picture of the bus was supposed to be the right sign before I retired, and it was black on a white background. Yes, I know, an increasing number of operators use their own, which makes me wonder if the rules have changed in the not too distant past! Equally, the post ‘shall’ – the manual used to say – be black or silver. So much for the operator’s livery colour!

Pete Davies

10/01/16 – 10:53

I always imagined that bold ‘black bus on white background’ consistency was introduced to help those with sight impairment, entirely logical, but perhaps misguided by the way it’s fast disappearing. Stagecoach are introducing such multi-coloured ones with fancy writing/numbers, that I, who suffer from colour-blindness, has difficulty making out the dedicated route numbers on the various signs. I must look out for the manual you mention, Pete. Maybe I can throw a spanner in the works!

Chris Hebbron

11/01/16 – 09:26

Paul H (15/01/15 – 10:32) implies that, like Southdown’s KUF 700, Ribble’s early post-war double-deck coaches were, in due course, downgraded to buses. In fact, that only happened in respect of the first 30 (2518-47: BRN 261-90 – later renumbered 1201-30), which were actually PD1/3, only the last 20 being PD2/3. From the mid-1950s they were demoted to bus work, with the luggage pens replaced by seats, presumably raising capacity to 53. They were also repainted in bus livery, but I understand that these things (demoting/increasing capacity/repainting) did not necessarily all occur at the same time. After becoming buses, they were particularly associated with Ribble’s Furness operating area. The later PD2/3s (1231-50: DCK 202-21) were never downgraded to buses, they remained on medium distance express services until replaced by Atlanteans 1266-85 (RRN 415-34) in 1962.

David Call

11/01/16 – 13:37

Brian A above says No 700 was at the Festival of Britain in 1951. I’m not sure about that, as I thought it was one of the standard Leyland-bodied PD2/12s on show at that event. In C. Carter’s book “The Heyday of the Bus, the Postwar Years”, there is a picture of No.701 (KUF 701) on a plinth there. This was the first of 24 such vehicles, followed by another 30 (Later ones had bodies by other makers). If 700 visited as well, was it just on an excursion, or was it an additional exhibit?

Michael Hampton

15/12/18 – 06:38

I was a regular in Bognor Regis bus garage from 1964 to 1973 and I never saw KUF 700 do any other work than an occasional schools bus service.

Martin Bray

Southdown – Leyland Titan – RUF 189/5 – 783/5

Southdown - Leyland Titan - RUF 189/5 - 783/5
Southdown - Leyland Titan - RUF 189/5 - 783/5

Southdown Motor Services
1956
Leyland Titan PD2/12
Beadle H59RD

There have been comments over the years about the last Beadle double deck bodies to be built delivered to Southdown in Nov/Dec 1956 but few photos. To try and rectify this I attach two photos of this batch No’s 777-788 Reg No’s RUF 177-188, That of 783 was taken outside Pevensey Road bus station, whilst not a very good photo I included it as this bus was later converted into a tree lopper after an accident at I believe Jarvis Brook railway bridge which was near Southdown’s Crowborough garage, I heard that the unfortunate driver was an Maidstone & District man trying to reach the garage. That of 785 was taken in Pool Valley Brighton when being reversed on to the stand for the Brighton local service 38 which later became the regular haunt of the RESL/6L’s the route had a significant amount of hill work. Believed to have been built by Beadle on Park Royal frames, the easy way to tell these near identical batches apart was the Beadle’s had sliding ventilators and the Park Royal’s had half drops.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave

30/01/18 – 16:33

In 1956/7, both NGT and Newcastle Corporation took delivery of batches of very similar Park Royal bodied vehicles.
Those of NCT were all AEC Regent V.
The 1956 NGT group vehicles were GUY Arab IV, and the intake for 1957 were R/D versions on a Leyland PD2/12 chassis.
Although they looked very similar to these, one notable difference was that both NCT & NGT were all four bay construction, whereas these are five.
Was that Southdown spec?

Ronnie Hoye

01/02/18 – 07:10

guy

Further to Ronnie Hoye’s post, Northern took 28 Guy Arabs with Park Royal bodies in 1956, 20 for the main fleet and 8 for Tynemouth. There were 10 PD2s in 1957 for Northern. All were 63 seaters.

regent

Newcastle took 20 high bridge examples in 1956, 137-156 (XVK 137-156) and 20 in 1957, 157-176 (157-176 AVK) ten of which were low bridge. The high bridge vehicles seated 62 and the low bridge vehicles 58.

Living north of the Tyne, I was more familiar with the Tynemouth and Newcastle buses. I thought they were well proportioned buses, but the interior finish on the Newcastle vehicles left a lot to be desired, red painted lining panels, narrow seats and a distinct lack of ventilation. Tynemouth’s vehicles were far better finished in my view.
A couple of photos are attached illustrating a Northern vehicle and one of Newcastle’s 1957 high bridge buses.

R Slater

02/02/18 – 05:37

Your not wrong, the NCT vehicles were positively spartan in comparison to those of the NGT Group.
It was the same story with the Orion bodied Leyland PD’s that followed these. Every expense seems to have been spared on the NCT vehicles, with their painted metal interiors, whereas the NGT were covered.
Those of Tynemouth & Wakefields were finished to an even higher standard with moquette upholstered seats.
Getting back to the Park Royal GUY Arab IV’s. As you say, Tynemouth & District had eight of them, FT 9408/15 208/15 I started as a driver at Percy Main in 1967, so by now they were nearly 11 years old, but they were VERY reliable, and for all their age they were a delight to drive, but how much better would they have been if they ha been fitted with a G6LW rather than a 5?
214 was written off after an accident, and dismantled for spares, and the remainder were transferred to Northern in 1968.
By this time we had quite a number of the superb Alexander bodied CRG6LX Daimler Fleetlines, so I was probably in a minority, but I for one was sorry to see them go.

Ronnie Hoye

08/02/18 – 14:46

I could go on a real nostalgia fest here, Ronnie. Tynemouth was my local fleet. My memories date from the mid 1950s when I can just about remember the ECW rebodied Leyland TD5s and the trio of AEC Regents rebodied by Pickering. Wallsend locals were largely in the hands of successive batches of Guy Arabs. I used these services to go the the Buddle school and later the grammar school. I recall end of school day transport at the Buddle was provided by four vehicles, two for High Farm and two for Sunholme, usually older vehicles but sometimes newly overhauled vehicles doing what I assume were running in turns. The Guys gave way to Leyland PD2s and PD3s, Atlanteans and Fleetlines. I’ll shut up now!

Richard Slater

11/02/18 – 06:23

Like you Richard, our school bus was either one of the Pickering rebodied pre war Regents or, occasionally, one of the Weymann bodied, early post war variety. As the bus came off an earlier “Workmen”s service it was usually late,a source of delight to we pupils, but consternation to the school.
In 1957, I started to attend Tynemouth High School, where it was decided we lived near enough to walk to school. 4X4s were rare and mostly restricted to the farming community in those days!
I remember the ECW rebodied TD5s also largely because they were quite fast and refined mechanically, for a bus of that era.They seemed to spend a lot of their time on the 5 Whitley Bay (St. Mary’s Lighthouse) to Newcastle (Haymarket)until about 1955, when they I think (its all a long time ago now) they were largely replaced on that route by the 1955 Orion bodied Guys.

William Mill

Southdown – Leyland Titan PD1 – GUF 669 – 269

Southdown - Leyland Titan PD1 - GUF 669 - 269

Southdown Motor Services
1946
Leyland Titan PD1
Park Royal H26/26R

Taken with my rather primitive Comet S camera in Brighton in 1960, this picture is not one of my best. There were twenty five of these PD1s delivered between June and September 1946, and 269, GUF 669, arrived with Southdown in July. 269 was withdrawn in 1963 and sold to Mexborough and Swinton who upseated it to H32/26R, but withdrew it for scrap just three years later. The PD1, with its 100 bhp 7.4 litre E181 engine and slow gearchange, was never a lively performer, and would have found some of the hills around Brighton to have been a bit of of a challenge, but several were based at Worthing depot, and in the picture 269 is operating along the relatively easy coastal route 9 from Arundel to Brighton.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

01/05/22 – 07:37

Poor photo you might feel, Roger, but photos of immediate post-war buses are often fascinating. I’m not sure I’ve ever seen a Park Royal bodied one before, still five-bay. Weymann ones are seemingly more common. I agree with the painfully slow gearchanges on these vehicles; you could drink a cup of tea between gears, at least you could with London Transport’s austerity TD4 STDs, which sometimes would appear at Raynes Park, on the 77A route! Why they were given challenging routes in Central London and not allocated to Country services, I don’t know. But that’s London Transport for you!

Chris Hebbron

22/05/22 – 06:47

I went on a family holiday to Worthing in 1959, our first Southern holiday. I remember these PD1s from that holiday and this particular bus from its days with Mexborough and Swinton as I worked as an apprentice at Parkgate at that time just along the road from the M&S depot. I don”t recall ever travelling on it or its sibling. They have a certain rugged attraction to the bodywork and certainly dissimilar to any other buses that I came across. Thanks for the memories!!

Ian Wild

24/05/22 – 05:46

Chris, the utility London Transport STD class of 1941/2 comprised eleven “unfrozen” buses of the Leyland TD7 variety, a type that was introduced in succession to the TD5 in 1939. The TD6 was a special Birmingham only gearless version of the TD7, the model number being changed by Leyland for the wider market. In addition to being higher geared than the TD5, a significant change was the adoption of flexible engine mountings, and, to reduce rock, the engine was equipped with a heavier flywheel than before. This, however, resulted in the engine revs taking a long time to die between upward gear changes, which, added to the high gearing, made the TD7 painfully slow on intensive town services. Perversely, the London TD7s were all allocated to Victoria garage where they were regarded with an attitude bordering on hatred, and STD 101-111 were the very first utility buses to be withdrawn from front line service by London Transport. They all went unlamented for scrap. In practice, several provincial operators found that the flexible engine mountings of the TD7 weakened the chassis frame at the back of the engine and restored their examples to the solid mountings of the TD5, so was it all worth it, one wonders. The wartime bus industry is reported to have been utterly dismayed when the Leyland TD8 utility bus option was cancelled by the Ministry of War Transport, leaving only the suspiciously unknown quantity called the Guy Arab available to operators. Perhaps the heavy flywheel TD8 might not have proved popular in practice, whereas the Arab went on to earn a reputation as a truly dependable workhorse. Despite having a rigidly mounted engine the PD1 also precluded remotely speedy gear changes, and Geoffrey Hilditch declared that this model had the slowest gear change he ever encountered, though it seems that he didn’t come across the equally ponderous TD7. Strangely, the single deck PS1 of identical mechanical specification did not seem to earn a similar reputation. No doubt the lighter vehicle weight permitted better forward progress through the gears.

Roger Cox

Southdown – Leyland Tiger – AUF 851 – 51 (551 from 1937)


Copyright Jack Turley/Dinnages

Southdown Motors Services
1934
Leyland Tiger TS6T
Short Bros. B40C (B39C from about 1946)

Two of these impressive and handsome vehicles (51 & 52) were purchased in 1934 for the Eastbourne to Beachy Head tourist service. The local authority would only allow the service to operate with single-deckers, so Southdown decided to buy the largest single-deckers available at the time, which, by law, had to be 30 foot long six-wheelers. Long-time Leyland adherents, they settled on the fairly rare TS6T (T standing for Trailing Axle), which enabled them to carry 40 passengers on the profitable route. A further two (53 & 54) were bought in 1935, this time TS7T’s.
Originally fitted with Leyland 8.6 petrol engines, they were all fitted with 8.6 diesel engines in 1940. Despite their luxurious appearance, they were considered to be buses by Southdown, bearing the name in letters rather than “real writing”!
After their hard lives, they were all withdrawn from service in 1952.
The photo shows 551, in about 1950, about to depart from Eastbourne Pier and grind its way up to the top of Beachy Head. Note the driver in his summer uniform.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Chris Hebbron

29/05/11 – 17:46

What truly magnificent vehicles, and even further enhanced by the cream side destination boards. My own experience of the ascent on service 97 to Beachy Head is confined to the delightful open top Guy Arabs in the 1960s – and there’s scarcely any need to go into detail about the delightful acoustics of that journey !!

Chris Youhill

29/05/11 – 19:15

Yes, the austerity Guy Arab II’s were converted to open-top around 1950-51 and some re-engined with 6LW engines for the Devil’s Dyke/Beachy Head services. The service became 197 around that time, too. The open-toppers were used all along the South Coast, even a couple on Hayling Island. They lasted until about 1964.
Unlike the TS6T’s, the basic Guys were regarded as coaches and given ‘Southdown’ side panels in ‘real writing’!
A 1964 film, The Chalk Garden, has Hayley Mills and Deborah Kerr boarding one of them, with it pulling away.
I don’t know how extensive the rebuilding of the bodies was, but they always looked impeccable, right to the end. Southdown were a class act.

Chris Hebbron

30/05/11 – 06:25

So true Chris H, Southdown were exactly as you say – “a class act.” The winning combination of high quality handsome vehicles and impeccable maintenance was perfected even further by perhaps the most dignified of all liveries in such very pleasing colours.

Chris Youhill

31/05/11 – 11:40

…and what about the Harrington Cavalier coaches with only 28 seats for there road cruises.

Roger Broughton

31/05/11 – 11:58

By the late 1960s, the Devil’s Dyke service was operated with convertible ‘Queen Mary’ Leylands. At Southdown, vehicle allocation, (including when the tops were to be removed), was decided by the Engineering Department rather than the Traffic Department, unlike other companies I knew, a practice that didn’t always contribute to efficient traffic management. Their policy on which style of company name to apply to any particular vehicle or type, was inconsistent.
I am well aware of Southdown’s reputation amongst some enthusiasts, and I have no desire either to offend anyone or spoil their image of the company. Certainly Southdown itself thought it was a ‘class act’, a view it didn’t hide from its BET neighbours.
However, at the risk of being thought sour, I remain to be convinced that Southdown was anything out of the ordinary. From an enthusiast’s point of view, its fleet was less interesting and in some ways less operationally imaginative than, for example, neighbour M&D’s fleet. For instance, I always thought M&D’s AEC Reliance coaches with ZF 6-speed gearboxes were decidedly better for both drivers and passengers than Southdown’s Leyland Leopards with Eaton 2-speed axles.
The standard of maintenance and turnout was high, granted, but the same could be said of pretty well all major operators; their livery was attractive, (even though the capital letter version of the name was distinctly old-fashioned), but, again, the same could be said of many other operators.
By coincidence, this posting follows one of Richard Fieldhouse’s lovely postings: – a West Yorkshire K6B. Having been involved at close quarters with the management of both companies, I have little doubt about which of them was operationally the ‘class act’. From a management viewpoint, West Yorkshire would win hands down every time. Sorry if I have upset anyone.

Mr A Non

01/06/11 – 08:21

I don’t have any professional reason to hide my identity but, in confidence, I can pass on similar comments from friends in the industry.
The professional perspective and that of the enthusiast often differ and I have spent hours with professional friends explaining cogently why certain things had to happen which leave enthusiasts in a spin – including the splitting up of that sacred cow, London Transport.
Personally, I couldn’t agree more about the superiority of the ZF Reliance (and M & D). I also include Southdown and Ribble amongst the all time greats – but one of my professional friends pointed out (with proofs and from personal experience) that both were basket cases when sold off by NBC at privatisation. […..and then there was the criminal end of those proud coach operators Yelloway and Sheffield United Tours (aka National Travel East) under the leadership (?) of ATL Group.]

David Oldfield

01/06/11 – 13:30

Mr Non,
You know, you should never speak ill of the dead!

Chris Hebbron

16/01/12 – 17:35

I was born and lived in Southdown territory for over 50 years and drove for them for almost 22 years at their Eastbourne depot from 1969 so worked quite a few trips to Beachy Head but I regret only with the convertible PD3’s, except for a couple of “memorable” trips with a Bristol LD6B borrowed from BH&D for a summer season. The lack of performance was embarrassing so much so that drivers on the local private coach companies complained to the management of their sluggish efforts to climb the steep twisty road up out of Eastbourne. The company was definitely a “class act”, although conservative in it’s choices the vehicles were always solid reliable and very comfortable with well upholstered higher backed seats in an attractive patterned moquette, the same standards were maintained until the end of the PD3 deliveries after that they got pretty much what they were told as did all NBC companies. We felt at Eastbourne that our standards of maintenance and cleaning were higher than any other depot a view borne out when we drove vehicles from other depots (yes we were snobs) but of course all this went downhill as NBC increased it’s stranglehold on the company and things sunk to a low level, a brief respite when it was privatised (so it was a basket case) then came Stagecoach about whom I would rather say nothing. What followed was an extremely sad and messy end to a very proud and respected company but in it’s prime a true CLASS ACT by any ones definition.
R.I.P Southdown

Diesel Dave

17/01/12 – 07:07

To be fair, Dave, it may not be (traditional) Southdown but, by all modern standards, Stagecoach IS a class act. It’s just not enthusiasts’ heaven – no one makes vehicles today that are interesting enough!

David Oldfield

17/01/12 – 15:54

Very belatedly, I’ve just seen A Non’s comments above, which, by chance refer to the three companies I knew well in the 1960’s: Southdown, Maidstone & District and West Yorkshire. I was both surprised and gratified to see that views I’ve always had, but have often kept to myself for fear of offending others, are shared by at least one other person. I think he’s spot on. First, I agree wholeheartedly that M&D’s AEC Reliances, with their 6-speed ZF gearboxes, were decidedly superior to Southdown’s Eaton 2-speed axle Leyland Leopards, both to drive and from a passenger standpoint. A Non is absolutely right, in my view, and I was glad to see David Oldfield’s endorsement of his comments. A Non is also correct, I believe, in describing M&D’s fleet policy as being more imaginative than Southdown’s. M&D didn’t always get it right, (as their sad experience with the Albion Nimbus and the early Atlanteans demonstrates), but they displayed a greater concern for their passengers and staff than their conservative southern neighbours.
I agree with him, too, in his assessment of the management and management style of Southdown. They certainly made no secret, to their BET neighbours at least, of their own superior opinion of themselves. M&D and Southdown operated a number of long joint services with each other – to the point, unusually, of each company’s staff operating the other’s vehicles – but the relationship between the two managements was not especially close or particularly friendly. M&D’s Traffic Department co-operated more closely with East Kent, and both regarded Southdown as stand-offish. M&D was a pleasant company whose staff enjoyed intimate working relationships; Southdown was not.
A Non’s right about the influence of the Engineering Department at Southdown over matters that at other companies were regarded as Traffic Department issues; that policy caused unnecessary operational problems and costs, and made for relations between Traffic and Engineering that were often strained and always distant, as I know from personal experience.
Finally, A Non is totally correct in his judgment that West Yorkshire were a better managed company than Southdown. Southdown had a clumsy and inefficient management structure that may have flattered its own perceived superiority, but it cost more money than it was worth, it made decision-making difficult, and it had seriously demotivating consequences. In their own way, the Traffic Department at West Yorkshire had a high opinion of itself as Southdown’s did, but with one major difference: they were justified in their opinion. As a number of correspondents have pointed out, enthusiasts’ recollections of those days are sometimes coloured by memories of nicely turned out vehicles in smart liveries, perhaps ones they didn’t often come across and which therefore have extra nostalgic value. The managerial realities of the companies involved, however, does not always correspond with those recollections. I’m very sorry if I have offended any Southdown fans, but A Non raised important and valid points that were worth making even if they are often left unsaid.

Roy Burke

17/01/12 – 16:00

I’m assuming, David O, that your comparison is with the other big groups and am genuinely interested in learning in what respects it outshines the others. You’re right about the lack of ‘interesting vehicles around today, although ‘bottom fishing’ around the small independents sometimes produces the odd gem!

Chris Hebbron

17/01/12 – 16:01

Sorry, David. I totally disagree about Stagecoach. I have worked for this operator in the past, and now have to put up with a very poor and unreliable bus service through my village to the neighbouring towns. The Stagecoach maintenance budget is greatly over constrained, with buses suffering from extended silly faults that could be easily fixed with suitable finance. The basic obligation of a bus operator is to run the service(s) safely and reliably with clean, inviting vehicles. This is impossible if maintenance standards do not measure up. Deregulation gives bus operators carte blanche to run what they like and charge well above a reasonable margin in fares. Stagecoach has just handed out £340m to shareholders with Brian Souter and Ann Gloag personally getting £88m between them. A bit more on maintenance would be more appropriate. The present structure of our public road and rail transport industries is a disgrace.

Roger Cox

17/01/12 – 17:57

I am but a humble professional musician/music teacher with a PSV who has spent many (many) years driving buses and coaches (and preserved vehicles) on a part time basis.
I am never “opinionated” because all my comments are considered and based on fact and verifiable material. Different managers, companies and sheds may occasionally fall short of the mark; politicians may ensure that expensive initiatives funnel investment into city areas and away from the rural population but Stagecoach has been vilified, often unjustifiably, for being Stagecoach. [I am talking about the mature company, not the young “pirate”. I am talking about the experience of industry professionals and real passengers alike.] You may not like them – that is your prerogative – but that is not my point. Only Stagecoach and Go-Ahead consistently win awards and plaudits from within and without the industry. It is on material like this – gleaned easily from publications like Route One and Bus and Coach Buyer – that I base my comments. …..so yes, Chris, I am comparing with other groups. And, Roger, it doesn’t mean that I don’t agree with you substantively and everything else. …..oh and, I don’t – and never have – had shares in Stagecoach or any other company.

David Oldfield

18/01/12 – 06:30

A number of interesting comments in this thread about the superiority or otherwise of certain operators but I will just confine myself to pointing out that if you go today to the exact spot where that photo was taken, you will find that the view is unchanged sixty years later (including the lamp post in the background) and that you may still board a bus there for Beachy Head although it may well be a Scania double decker of Brighton & Hove. A visit to Eastbourne is recommended for the annual running day in August which usually includes journeys to the top of Beachy Head in a PD3, a journey I first made some 45 years ago (and have the tickets to prove it).

Nigel Turner

18/01/12 – 06:31

In the area I live in, First Group operate the majority of services, with a few contributed by Stagecoach. These days, I much prefer to travel on a Stagecoach vehicle – their service locally seems generally more efficient, and cleaner. I could almost be attracted to modern buses! That is not say that First are inefficient or grubby, but they are not in the same ball park as Stagecoach in this neck of the woods. In general, the First Group local stock consists of some quite elderly vehicles too, which doesn’t necessarily help the image – but would the man in the street or on the seat notice this? Like some others here, I have no shares in any bus company and have never been employed in the bus industry – just an observer and passenger for many years, and this is just a personal view. Others can disagree, and we will enjoy reading the other comments in due course.

Michael Hampton

18/01/12 – 06:32

Thx, David, for quoting the source of your knowledge about Stagecoach (and Go-Ahead). Roy, it’s not whether ‘fans’ are offended by ‘insider’ comments – I think most of us contributing on this site are old enough to appreciate and welcome measured and informed opinion, rather than be influenced by one livery over another or the smartness of staff uniforms! I, for one, find these discussions useful and I’m sure I’m not alone. One point: for many years, Southdown had a fare-sharing arrangement with Portsmouth Corporation, which involved route-balancing swapping of buses (but not crews) at the year-end, usually with Portsmouth buses on Southdown routes, but I recall one year where the reverse happened. Do you know what the relationship was like between these two organisations?.

Chris Hebbron

18/01/12 – 08:39

A very interesting observation, Nigel, on the unchanged scene after 60 years. almost unheard of in this day and age! And thanks for the heads-up on the annual running day. Where would the actual date be published?

Chris Hebbron

18/01/12 – 10:36

Interesting observation, Chris H. Anyone who’s ever read any of your comments on this site will recognise both your own extensive knowledge of the industry and your commitment to remembering and understanding it in an informed, realistic and unbiased way. On the other hand, there are lots of comments, (you can see some on this page alone), that rate an operator on the basis of well turned out vehicles. Maybe I’m just sour, but I do rather disagree with the often expressed view – it’s clearly your view, and I have no wish to upset you – that Southdown were a ‘class act’. Operationally, they were often inefficient in many regards, certainly in comparison with West Yorkshire. The company seemed to encourage compartmentalisation, which in turn discouraged contact and co-operation both internally and with other operators. I found this to be in stark and unhelpful contrast with everything I had seen at WY and had been taught at Maidstone & District.
I can’t, I’m afraid, throw any light on your question, Chris, about the arrangements at Portsmouth between Southdown and Portsmouth Corporation, since I was based in Brighton. However, illustrative of the point I’m trying to make is that in the year and more that I was there, I never met my ‘oppos’ at Portsmouth – my request to do so being summarily dismissed as unnecessary – and I recall speaking to them by telephone only once. Similarly, although we were of course heavily involved in the Brighton Pool with Brighton Corporation and Brighton, Hove & District, those operators were regarded more as competitors for staff than as partners. No need was seen for contact between us at an operational level, (the idea was variously described to me as ‘dangerous’ and ‘pointless’), and there was none.
This site is not the place for gripes, however, and I repeat my apologies for attacking a reputation that many fans hold dear. I just don’t share their view. I have a high opinion of the operational efficiency of West Yorkshire, and I have the fondest possible regard for Maidstone & District, ramshackle and bumbling though they occasionally were. Both were, in my experience, better, (and definitely happier), operators than Southdown.

Roy Burke

18/01/12 – 13:56

But apologies are not required, Roy. We speak as we find and, as some of us have already intimated, the professional and insider view can be at variance – sometimes wildly – with that of the enthusiast. My conversations with “professional” friends constantly bear this out.
[Personally, I would go for M & D and their Reliances – as well as their later Leopards.]

David Oldfield

18/01/12 – 14:47

I simply have to agree with Roy`s comments on the general points of difference between the likes of “West Yorkshire” and “Southdown”!
The former Tilling group`s whole ethos was based on rugged efficiency with a truly Northern “no nonsense” approach, whereas the more noted BET operators always seemed to have the politicians ideal of putting on a “frontal image”.
Certainly, in the Bradford area, I do not recall any adverse comments about West Yorkshire, it being an organisation which always commanded public respect. Unlike YWD, or Hebble, its vehicles were always well turned out, and the whole operation exuded total efficiency! Other members of the group always gave me the same impression, United coming to mind.
I know I am only an enthusiast, and not an “insider”, but I was well tuned in to public awareness, and this feeling was, I am convinced, well founded.
It is a great pity that this superb bus operator is no longer with us, as, like so many of our industrial organisations of the past, we did not know what we had until we lost it!
As for the present day, I have no interest whatsoever, and suggest we stick to the 1970 (or earlier?) limit for this website!

John Whitaker

19/01/12 – 05:29

Well my comments certainly provoked a varied response from several of my fellow contributors to the site which I suppose is one of it’s aims.
I have to admit my admiration for Southdown came about during my childhood from the early forties so has no basis in administration or engineering just my personal experience of being a passenger and enjoying that. I did drive some of M&D’s Reliances and Panthers on the Heathfield cycle routes and enjoyed the experience very much, if I am honest I must admit that I found the Reliance a far better vehicle to drive whether in bus or 6 speed coach form. If you took the time to master it the Leopard with 2 speed axle was a pleasant vehicle to drive but the engine never pulled as willingly as the AEC motor and the controls were much heavier. So you see my admiration for Southdown is purely a childhood fantasy and I will be forever prejudiced, thank you for indulging me.

Diesel Dave

19/01/12 – 05:30

If I could add my two penny worth to the debate. My vote for the class acts in the North East would go to three independents, OK Motor Services of Bishop Auckland, who had a mixed fleet of new and used vehicles and ran a number of services, and two one route operators, Hunter’s of Seaton Delaval and Economic of Whitburn, the last two had very similar livery’s, but all three had beautifully turned out vehicles, and you could almost set your watch by them. As for Tilling and BET, I worked for a BET company, Tynemouth and Wakefields a subsidiary of Northern General, our buses weren’t bad but Tyneside, another Northern subsidiary, were always immaculate, to be fair they had a much smaller fleet than us, but if I’m honest I would have to say that in general, United ‘a Tilling group company’ always seemed to have a slight edge, but nostalgia’s not what it used to be

Ronnie Hoye

19/01/12 – 17:49

The Eastbourne Running Day has its own website www.eastbourne-classicbus.co.uk
This years event is on Sunday July 22nd and already promised are a Leyland Lion, AEC Regent III, Regent V and Leyland PD2 ex Eastbourne Corporation, a Guy Arab and Leyland PD3 ex Southdown and an AEC Reliance ex East Kent. I spent my holidays on the South Coast in the 1960s and 1970s riding on buses like these, well perhaps not the Leyland Lion!

Nigel Turner

27/01/12 – 06:29

As a former West Yorkshire engine fitter from 1969 to 1987, it is heart warming to read comments about the company being a ‘class act’. From an employee’s viewpoint WY was a good company to work for, with generally good facilities and working conditions. Certainly the atmosphere at the Central Works, Body Shop and Head Office complex in Harrogate was that of one big family – with all that that entailed! Despite the loss of our attractive ‘Tilling’ bus and coach liveries under the aegis of the NBC, and the relentless governmental drive towards one-person operation (whether it was needed or not), WY remained a well-run and generally well-respected organisation. Brian Horner was general manager for much of the NBC period, and in many peoples view built on the standards inherited from his predecessor Jack Lawrence. The bus and coach fleet were generally well-presented for what was a fairly large concern, and the tours and holidays side expanded under the steady hand of the late Gordon Dingle. The company had a policy of continued modernisation of its depots, offices and other facilities, and in the 1980’s WY devised a preventive maintenance programme to further improve vehicle reliability, based on its own data relating to component life. West Yorkshire was indeed a ‘class act’ and is sadly missed by many including me. I still have a soft spot for Southdown though……..

Brendan Smith

28/01/12 – 06:34

The Southdown engineering department had a penchant for cutting down the engine output of their Leylands and Guys, ostensibly in the interests of fuel economy, and road performance suffered. I recall particularly a ride in the early 1960s on one of the very fine Park Royal bodied Guy Arab IVs on route 23 between Crawley and Brighton, a service that encountered some pretty stiff gradients across the Weald and over the South Downs. The governor of the bus’s 6LW had been reset to such a low level that the engine died back at a road speed of about 25 mph. I always felt, also, that Southdown Leylands decidedly lacked sparkle on the road.

Roger Cox

17/12/12 – 11:24

I worked twice as a PSV conductor for Southdown Portsmouth depots in the 1960s as a student holiday job and had the fortune to work on PD3s of the time. As for the comment for nowhere for the conductor to stand, it was the custom for them to stand at the front at the base of the staircase and lean through an open window area over the left hand side of the front mounted engine to keep the driver company (obviously when safe to do so). The driver’s job was not so lonely and isolated as it is now on the ‘one-man bands’ that we have all become used to! Some drivers hated the PD3s especially the so-called’one-leggers’ which had a gearing system at the top of a long metal column that was mounted on the floor. I must admit that I considered the introduction of the ‘Queen Marys’ in 1957, when I was still attending school, unusual in the light that most bus companies were looking towards the introduction of Leyland Atlanteans in their fleets. Many PD3s came up to Leicester, where I now live, having being purchased by ‘Confidence’ for use for transporting the then British Shoe Corporation employees.

Bernard Robinson

03/01/13 – 11:23

I used to be a frequent traveller on Southdown route 12 (Brighton/Seaford/Eastbourne) in the late ‘forties and early ‘fifties. But this is about route 126 that went over Hindover Hill. I was assured in my youth that the name “High and Over” was a form of “Hindover” that was invented by the Southdown company in the ‘thirties.
Can anyone shed light on that?

Ron

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

15/04/16 – 07:08

Just another comment about Route 126. It ran from Eastbourne to Seaford, via Polegate and Alfriston. I used to use it as a local holiday treat when resident as a kid in Eastbourne during the late 1940s, early 1950s. My real memories of it were grinding up the long hill of ‘High and Over’ just before entering Seaford on the last lap of the journey, but another memory is that I think there must have been a vehicle size restriction on this service because I do remember how tight the parking was for the bus stop outside the famous old pub in the centre of Alfriston. Also, as an aside, does anyone else remember Drusilla’s on this route – a well known tourist destination on this route for its zoo and miniature railway?

Roger Bristow

Southdown – Leyland Tiger – HCD 449 – 1249

HCD 449

Southdown Motor Services Ltd
1947
Leyland Tiger PS1/1
ECW C31R

HCD 449 is a Leyland Tiger PS1/1 with an ECW C31R bodywork (with door!) and dates from 1947, when it joined Southdown. We see it at an open day at the Brijan Tours depot in Curdridge – just outside Botley – on 22 April 2012. These open days were always well-attended, collecting money for local charities, normally the Hampshire & Isle Of Wight Air Ambulance. Sadly, Brijan closed down in 2015.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

29/04/16 – 06:15

Superb in every way.

Ian Thompson

29/04/16 – 07:56

Is this another post which will spark off the old debate about DP v Coach specification? Southdown classed them as coaches but the body shell is unmistakeably bus with just a little additional brightwork embellishment. That apart it is a superb looking vehicle especially with the chromed radiator surround nicely polished.

Philip Halstead

29/04/16 – 14:29

Thanks for your comment, Ian!

Pete Davies

29/04/16 – 14:29

This particular combination of already handsome ECW body with Leyland PS1 chassis has always been particularly pleasing to me as an ardent admirer of both components.
If ever there was a vehicle where everything looks “just right” this is one. Many operators had examples of these but as far as I know only the Southdown ones had half drop windows (and very tidy louvres??)

Chris Youhill

30/04/16 – 06:28

A very interesting thought, Chris Y. I’ve just had a trawl through the contributions in respect of ECW bodies. Among them, there are plenty of single deckers, but none have the half-drop windows. Is one of the Southdown aficionados able to tell us if that operator was indeed the only one to have this combination?

Pete Davies

30/04/16 – 12:16

I am sure that I have travelled on an ECW-bodied Hants & Dorset Bristol LS B35R with half-drops in the late 1950s.

David Wragg

01/05/16 – 05:55

My favourite Southdown vehicles. As a small child in the late 50’s, I used to travel into Storrington on the service 71 which was usually operated by the 15xx East Lancs bodied Royal Tigers. Occasionally, one of these magnificent machines would turn up much to my delight. (They were downgraded from express duties to bus work after 1955).
Some were fitted with bus seats and full size destination boxes front and rear. Others remained as built. Regarding the half drop windows, there is a story that they were delivered with sliders, but altered at Portslade works before entering service. Not sure if this is truth or folklore, but Southdown had a thing about half drop windows, and all pre 1956 vehicles had them.

Roy Nicholson

01/05/16 – 17:20

Roy, according to MG Doggett & AA Townsin’s lovely book ‘ECW 1946-1965’, it would appear that Southdown had accepted most features of ECW’s ‘express’ design on its batch of Tigers, including the trim along the waistline. Interestingly though the authors go on to state: “However, there seems to have been some unease about the opening windows from early on. Some, at least, entered service with the then new ECW standard sliding vents (there being photographic evidence of body 1644 at Victoria thus), but body 1638 had much deeper sliding vents while 1640 (Southdown 1246) had full-depth sliding windows as built”. An accompanying three-quarter rear view of 1246(GUF746) clearly shows the full-depth sliders, which gave the vehicle something of an ‘export model’ look. The text continues: “All of these options were considered unsatisfactory, and special half-drop windows conforming to ECW outline were fitted within a few months”. The view of 1246 with full-depth sliders shows it without the louvres above the windows, so were these fitted as vehicles received their half-drop windows? Whatever the case, there is no doubt that they were handsome machines, enhanced by the application of Southdown’s distinctive livery. Beautiful.

Brendan Smith

02/05/16 – 06:44

Brendan, thanks for the information confirming the story about the half drop windows. I will keep my eyes open for a copy of said book.

Roy Nicholson

02/05/16 – 06:44

Many thanks for your further comments, folks.

Pete Davies

03/05/16 – 07:09

A real favourite of mine, especially since I once travelled on one, with my mum, back from Southsea to Kingston, in 1953. I never thought of it other than a coach, especially so as it bore the ‘coach’ script on the side. The odd ones were always the utility open-topped Guy Arab II’s who also bore ‘coach’ script, not really deserving it, although I was fond of them!

Chris Hebbron

04/05/16 – 06:21

Chris, your comment confirms my recollection that these ECW bodied PS1s were the ones used on the London – Gosport coach service that I travelled on several times as a kid between 1949 and 1952. I recall the first time I saw one before getting on it in Gosport, and marvelling at its smart appearance. Having been a great fan of the Maidstone and District pre-war Tigers when previously living in Kent, I looked forward to being treated to the glorious musical sounds that the word ‘Leyland’ had come to mean to me. Oh, how the PS1 disappointed – like hearing Stockhausen after Sibelius. The E181 engine had a very harsh rattle, even if it propelled the coach along adequately. Back in the early days of Buses Illustrated, there used to be a regular column called ‘From The Driver’s Seat’ by a certain T.A. Dalton, who, I think, worked for United Automobile. He was consistently disparaging about the E181 engine, but our own OBP expert, Chris Youhill, takes a completely opposite view, and none of us, I’m sure, would challenge Chris’s unparalleled practical knowledge on the subject. Like the Crossley and Daimler engines of the early post war period, the E181 was probably best suited to single deck applications, and the PS1 continued to be the standard Leyland saloon bus offering after the PS2 had appeared.

Roger Cox

05/05/16 – 06:53

Many thanks Roger, and I must say though that my impression of the E181 engines was as unfavourable as anyone else’s when they first appeared in 1945/6. I think initially the stark contrast with the lusty but silky smooth prewar 8.6 litre unit hit us all very forcibly, and secondly, although I have no technical knowledge on the matter, I do think that fitter unfamiliarity and poor quality fuel contributed to that harsh “knock” which they displayed. In my experience they became much more mellow and delightful in later years for whatever reason and had remarkable power when properly “tuned and fed” and driven for their 7.4 litres. No use expecting them to pull with trolleybus like power at ridiculously low road speeds in the higher ratios – that’s where proper use of the very precise gearboxes was essential – oh there now, I’m drooling again. I often think of the occasion when I was just at the start of a very busy late Saturday duty when the AEC Regent V suffered a flat rear tyre and was changed over with JUM 376, one of the original half dozen bought new in 1946. The apologetic but understanding fitter promised to return the Regent within the hour with a new tyre – I said that I’d rather keep 376 for the rest of the duty and he agreed – I had a lovely evening but we were both lucky to get away with it as, if the eagle eyed manager had spotted on Monday morning that we’d un-necessarily sacrificed 65 seats for 58 we’d have been for the high jump. In the event of course we never left anybody all evening – did somebody mutter something about “eight standing” ?? – never heard them !!

Chris Youhill

Southdown – Leyland Tiger Cub – MUF 637 – 637

Southdown - Leyland Tiger Cub - MUF 637 - 637

Southdown Motor Services Ltd
1954
Leyland Tiger Cub PSUC1/1
Duple/Nudd B39F

The recent posting of the Edinburgh Guy Arab re-bodied by Nudd Brothers & Lockyer reminded me of this batch of saloons delivered to Southdown in 1954. This batch of Leyland Tiger Cubs were numbered 620-639 registered MUF 620-639 with B39F seating layout which oddly had a single N/S front seat and 2 pairs at the rear with a central emergency door and a mixture of half drop and sliding ventilators as well as unusual, for Southdown, curved seat top rails. These were new at a time when large numbers of parcels were carried, so behind the cab there was a floor to ceiling compartment about the size of a wardrobe fitted with shelving for carrying the parcels at the rear of which was a sliding door into the saloon, the drivers only other entry was the sliding door to the outside. Five very similar but by no means identical Tiger Cubs were delivered in 1955 numbered 640-644 registered OUF 640-643/PUF 644. They were very light and pleasant to drive and I always thought that the Tiger Cub had the best brakes of any Leyland model of that era.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave

06/02/14 – 08:59

Reminds me of the 1950’s Devon General Weymann Reliances. These are the only other underfloor front loaders I can remember with a separate cab door.

David Oldfield

06/02/14 – 16:06

I thought that some of the early BMMO built S types had a cab door.

Stephen Bloomfield

06/02/14 – 16:49

Huddersfield specified enclosed cabs with an offside hinged cab door on all its UF purchases up to and including the 1963 “A” registered pair of Reliances (23 and 24)

Ian Wild

06/02/14 – 17:37

Bradford also had two AEC Reliances (501 and 502) with offside cab doors.

Stephen Bloomfield

07/02/14 – 06:49

Manchester Corporation’s Leyland Royal Tigers 20 – 23 and “Leyland” Aberdonians 40 – 45 all had the offside cab door, with a fixed partition between the cab and the platform. I think East Yorkshire also had some saloons with this feature.

Don McKeown

07/02/14 – 06:50

Your mention of parcels, D Dave, reminds me of when I lived in Southsea, 1956-76, and the GPO would hire Southdown coaches to deliver Xmas parcels around the streets. With modern traffic parking down the road I lived in, I doubt if a coach could get along it now!

Chris Hebbon

07/02/14 – 18:47

Maidstone & District had a batch of Harrington/Commer integral saloons with an o/s cab door.
Re GPO use, can recall M&D buses and coaches hired for Xmas deliveries many many years ago.

Malcolm Boyland

08/02/14 – 08:23

ey_cab

Here is a photograph of the cab of an East Yorkshire Tiger Cub which had C H Roe bodywork.

Ken Wragg

08/02/14 – 09:49

Interesting that many of the early underfloor saloons had these enclosed cabs.
M&D’s certainly did but they subsequently went over to the near standard practice of just using a low waist high enclosure.
In today’s unpleasant society, the driver sadly needs the security of an assault proof working place but that wouldn’t have been so in the 50’s or 60’s.

Malcolm Boyland

25/03/14 – 15:27

I assume the requirement for the cab to have an emergency exit is still in place. On half cabs the side window over the engine is usually the emergency exit. If you can’t get out if the bus goes on its offside, then there needs to be a second way out. I guess that is the reason for the sliding door at the back of the Roe bodywork in the picture.

Peter Cook

26/03/14 – 06:25

I remember the prosaic message in the cabs of the Routemasters In the event of a fire get out.!!!

Philip Carlton

26/03/14 – 09:30

Frank Muir once remarked that, in all Emergency Instructions, item number two was always more important than number one.
Thus:- In Case of Fire
1. Notify your superior officer
2. Jump out of the window.

Roger Cox

09/08/17 – 06:36

From what Diesel Dave says about this beauty and the 15xx’s I get the impression our formative bus years were pretty much the same (KK 48848?). The later 640-4 were still around when I began driving but, certainly as far as the driver’s compartment went, they looked as though they’d been rescued from a chicken farm. However, for one brief interlude 638 came our way and what a dream. Somewhere along the line it had acquired one of the more modern grey enamel dashboards and could be driven with finger tip control. Is there anything on the road today that modern drivers will look back on with such fondness and respect?

Nick Turner

17/05/21 – 17:04

What a lovely bus I have an amazing picture of MUF 639 in the idyllic backdrop of Poynings circa 1957 possibly, the bus is central to the picture numbered route 128 on its rural route to Henfield Railway Station via Devils Dyke and Small Dole such an amazing picture does this bus still survive.
My dad drove for the Thames Valley from 1949 to 1986.

Mike Robinson

Southdown – Leyland Tiger Cub – UCD 122 – 1122

UCD 122

Southdown Motor Services Ltd
1958
Leyland Tiger Cub PSUC1/2
Beadle C37F

Taken in the mid sixties at the exit of Eastbourne Cavendish Place coach station this photo is of one of the last batch of Southdown’s 130 Tiger Cub/ Beadle coaches.
Delivered in 1958 No 1122 registration UCD 122 was one of the last batch of 15 which were the only ones with front entrances the other 115 having centre entrances, this particular car (to use the correct Southdown term) was to C37F layout the rest were C41F with the exception of 1128/9 which were C32F these two were also painted in pale blue and cream for a contract with Linjebus a Swedish tour company.
As this style of body was I believe peculiar to South down and this front entrance batch small in number I have not seen many photos of them here or elsewhere.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave

22/11/17 – 07:44

It still looks odd for me to see front entrance Southdown coaches, so rare were they! These few do remind me, somewhat, of the 11XX (XUF XXX) Weymann Fanfare-bodied Tiger Cubs of the early 1960’s. I think there was a second batch later. But these vehicles came in penny numbers, too!

Chris Hebbron

24/11/17 – 07:29

Its staggering to realise that one batch of coaches could number 130 and just goes to show how the British holiday scene has changed so much. Southdown also had many more batches of coaches in those days and it would be interesting to know what the total coach fleet strength was. And that was only one of the south coast operators to which could be added East Kent, M & D, Royal Blue and numerous others further west.

Philip Halstead

25/11/17 – 07:58

According to my 1966 7th edition of Ian Allen BBF Vol 1, Southdown had no less than 401 coaches, and a total fleet strength of 946. As Philip says, add to this M & D, East Kent , Royal Blue etc. and the numbers are quite staggering. In relation to Chris’s comment about front entrances, all post 1958 deliveries to Southdown had them, although the position of the door on the Commer Avengers was debatable! Most pre 1958 deliveries were central entrance.

Roy Nicholson

25/11/17 – 07:59

The total of 130 coaches of this type were in fact delivered over four years No’s 1000-1039 Reg OUF 100-139 in 1955, 1040-1074 Reg RUF 40-74 in1956, 1075-1114 Reg SUF 875-914 in 1957 and the last the front entrance batch 1115-1130 Reg UCD 115-129 in 1958. The Weymann Fanfare bodied Tiger Cubs came in two batches 1130-1144 Reg XUF 130-144 in 1960 and 1145-1154 Reg 8145-8154 CD in 1962 after that the Leopard was the chassis of choice.

Diesel Dave

17/01/18 – 06:26

The details about seating capacity for this batch are wrong. There were in fact 5 different as follows, 1115/6/7/8/9 were 41 seats, 1120-5 were 37 seats, 1126/7 were 41 seats, 1128/9 were 32 or 30 (varied depending on the ours they were running at the time. Now for liveries, 1126/7 were new in triumph blue/cream, 1129 was blue/cream (different) and lettered Linjebuss. This was a Swedish operator for whom Southdown operated a Round Britain tour. 1120-5 were used on Southdown Beacon Tours, at least 1125 having a cream roof and window surrounds from mid-58 to /62. 1128 had a continental step fitted below the central offside emergency exit and was used on a 17-day tour to Moscow for a tour operator called L F Moreland. And just to make the batch really interesting, 1116 was fitted with air suspension by -/60 as a ‘test-bed’ for the new Leopards due the next year !!

Paul Statham

09/04/18 – 07:46

I came across a mention in a book about a “Southdown” coach arriving at the newly opened Hotel Ukrania, Moscow in 1958. It carried 30 tourists from the Midlands and had taken a week to get there from Victoria Coach Station.

Gus

Southdown – Leyland Royal Tiger – MCD 515 – 1515

MCD 515

Southdown Motor Services Ltd
1953
Leyland Royal Tiger PSU1/13
East Lancs DP40C

This photo taken in the mid sixties in Pevensey Road Eastbourne shows one of my all time favourites, one of batch of thirty No’s 1510-1539 Reg No’s MCD 510-539 delivered in 1953 it is a Leyland Royal Tiger PSU1/13 with an East Lancs body delivered as DP40C and converted to B39F for OMO use in 1961 then sold in 1968. These followed a batch of ten No’s 1500-1509 Reg No’s LUF 500-509 delivered in 1952 these differed in being delivered as B40R also converted later for OMO work. My best memories of these handsome buses were in the mid fifties on the 126 route from Eastbourne to Seaford by the inland route via Alfriston and a steep climb over the South Down known as High and Over, the pleasure was much greater if I was able to bag the front N/S seat opposite the driver for which I always arrived early, the usual two cars (to use correct Southdown term) were 1528 and 1531. I little thought that about 14 years later I would be driving Leopards on the virtually same route but always wished it was one of those Royal Tigers.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave

21/05/15 – 06:45

Very nice, Dave, but wasn’t B39C a bit difficult for OMO/OPO working?

Pete Davies

21/05/15 – 06:47

Does anyone know what caused Southdown to buy East Lancs bodywork, a very accurate attractive bus but at the time East Lancs customer base was mainly in the north.
Did Southdown really use these as B39C for OMO work?

Chris Hough

21/05/15 – 16:56

There is a typo in Dave’s text. Should read’ and converted to B39F I also remember travelling on these as a child, both before and after conversion, and like Dave used to go for the front seat when they were central entrance. They were replaced in 1968 with a batch of Marshall bodied manual gearbox RE’s, which I seem to remember were not to their drivers liking!

Roy Nicholson

21/05/15 – 16:58

Spot the not so deliberate mistake 1515 was of course converted to B39F for OMO/OPO work part of the conversion entailed the previously recessed N/S windscreen being made upright to accommodate the new doors when open, my apologies for my poor proof reading.

Diesel Dave

23/05/15 – 07:20

Chris Hough asks about Southdown’s use of East Lancs products – I think the first use was in the war-time rebodying of two Leyland TD1s, and eight Leyland TD2’s to utility specification, a job which East Lancs was authorised (with Willowbrook) to do, rather than body new chassis. Southdown must have been satisfied, because East Lancs was included in the re-bodying programme of Leyland TD3s, TD4s and TD5s just after WWII. This exercise included several body-builders, including Park Royal, NCME, Saunders and Beadle. 59 bodies were completed by East Lancs between 1946 and 1950. Then the 40 Royal Tigers followed, and the final 24 PD2/12’s (789-812). However Southdown multi-sourced by also ordering from Park Royal, Beadle and NCME for double-deckers in the 1950s, finally settling on NCME for the 285 Queen Mary PD3s.

Michael Hampton

Southdown – Leyland Leopard – 179 DCD – 1179

Southdown - Leyland Leopard - 179 DCD - 1179
Southdown - Leyland Leopard - 179 DCD - 1179

Southdown Motor Services Ltd
1964
Leyland Leopard PSU3/3RT
Plaxton C49F

These photos taken opposite their Royal Parade garage show one of Southdown’s first ever batch of Plaxton bodies five of which numbered 1175-79 registered 175-79 DCD were delivered in January 1964 on Leopard PSU3/3RT chassis. The bodies were to C49F layout with low backed leather covered seats, a sixth numbered 1180 and registered 480 DUF arrived in March 1964 but was of C35F layout with high backed moquette seats for use on a contract with a Swedish company Linje-Tours, a role it took over from one of the front entrance Tiger Cub/Beadles either 1128 or 1129, when the contract ran out it was reseated to C49F.
I always thought that this style of Panorama body with a straight waist line was a great improvement on the previous model with it’s curved waistline although I have no aversion to curved waistlines as I still consider the Harrington Cavalier/Grenadier one of the all time classics of British coach building design.
Southdown of course went on to buy many more Plaxton bodies over the next 20 years the peak of which I think were the 1820-44 touring coaches to C32F layout delivered in 1971 registered UUF 320-44J on Leopard PSU3B/4RT chassis an absolute dream to drive.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave

28/11/13 – 05:58

Absolute beauty; Plaxtons at their best. [1963-1982 to be more precise.] The Leopard, however, was at its best from the PSU3E to the PSU3G.

David Oldfield

28/11/13 – 09:57

SUT had twenty of these (ten each for 1963/1964) on 2U3RA chassis. They too had low backed “touring” seats with generous leg-room. [44 seaters as well as 48 in a 36’0″ long coach.] I have seen other examples with other operators as well. [SUT continued with low back seats for the 45 seaters on the next style of Panorama but had head-rolls on the 49s.] Was this an on delivery photograph? I see no Southdown transfers on the side. Was 1180 and example of Southdown’s famous 2 + 1 layout super luxury touring coaches?

David Oldfield

29/11/13 – 17:20

The low back coach seats must have been a mid 60s fad.
At PMT, the 1964 Duples had high backs followed in 1965 and 1967 Plaxton bodies on Reliance and Roadliner respectively with low backs then reverting to high backs with the 1968 Duple Roadliners and subsequent Duple Reliances. Or were low backed coach seats a Plaxton speciality?

Ian Wild

29/11/13 – 17:46

Only remember them on Plaxtons, Ian. […..but maybe someone out there knows better…..]

David Oldfield

02/02/14 – 16:01

1180, the Linjebuss Leopard had ‘normal’ 2+2 seating with extra legroom. It is by the way preserved but with 49 seats. The Tiger Cub which 1180 replaced was 1129 which had 32 seats, 1128 had 30 seats and was used on a tour to Moscow operated by Morlands Tours. That contract was so important to Southdown that 1124, also Tiger Cub/Beadle was kept in Brighton to the same configuration as a spare coach.

Mr Anon

13/06/14 – 15:32

Low back seats were also fitted to the Weyman Castillion bodies (1155 to 1174 and to some of the 1700 class Harrington Cavaliers when reseated from C28F to C41F. As Ian Wild says it must have been a 60’s fad.

Richard Clark