Tag: Southdown

Southdown – Dennis Falcon – FUF 181 – 181

FUF 181

Southdown Motor Services
1939
Dennis Falcon P4
Harrington B30C

In 1938, Dennis replaced its multiplicity of of small buses for lightly trafficked routes – Dart, Pike, Arrow Minor, Ace and Mace – with one model, the Falcon. This was offered with normal or forward control, the engine options being Dennis 3.77 side valve petrol, or Gardner 4LK or Perkins P6 diesel. In 1938 Southdown took over the Worthing Tramocar business and began replacing the original Shelvoke and Drewry Freighters, at first with new Freighters. More about the Tramocar business may be found on OBP here:- //www.old-bus-photos.co.uk/?p=19218 
In April/May 1939 Southdown moved towards conventional buses for the Tramocar services, and purchased FUF 180/1, fleet nos. 80/1, two forward control Dennis Falcon P4s with Harrington B30C bodies offering easy access to the elderly clientele of Worthing. A third similar chassis, JUF 82, no. 82, but with Dennis B30R bodywork, arrived later that year in December after war had broken out, by which time only about 50 Falcons in total had been been produced by Dennis. In 1949 Southdown again turned to the lightweight Falcon P4, buying a further nine with Dennis B30R bodies, JUF 83-91 with matching fleet nos., for its service between Havant and Hayling Island which crossed a frail, elderly wooden bridge over the Langstone Channel built in 1824, on which a toll applied. Even then the bus went over tentatively and unladen, the passengers having to alight and walk across to rejoin it on the far side. The two ex Tramocar Falcons were transferred to the Hayling Island service to complement the ten later arrivals. The Langstone Bridge was replaced by a new structure in 1956, but the crossing toll remained until 1960. None of the Dennis bodied Falcons seems to have survived, but Harrington bodied FUF 181 of 1939 was once extant on the preservation scene. It is seen above at Brighton on the HCVC Rally in May 1970. Currently it is recorded as undergoing further restorative work. The prominent starting handles on all the Southdown Falcons suggests that they were powered by the robust 3.77 litre side valve petrol engine rather than the Gardner 4LK, but confirmation would be welcome.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

13/11/21 – 06:24

Hello Roger, I have just checked in Colin Druce’s excellent book ‘Southdown in Austerity’, and he confirms that these buses were indeed fitted with the Dennis 3.77 litre side valve petrol engine.

Roy Nicholson

01/03/22 – 06:47

I read with interest the notes on the captioned. I had been looking for any information regarding its present state, to date, to no avail. However despite my not being fully computer literate I managed to get the following, it is/was with Seaford & District who I understand have been taken over by 7 Sisters Bus & Coach whatever they might be in 01-2021. On the Seaford web site under Vintage Bus there is a Flickr Photopool, under Group Pool, Paul Goldsmith there is a shot of said bus, headed DCS_0105, dated 08/2017. It looks to be a VERY comprehensive works in progress, to say the least!. I should add that I have several times in the past sent E-mails to S&D regarding this vehicle but on no occasion did I get any reply, customer service?.

John Adrian Pearce

Southdown – Commer Avenger – XUF 55 – 55

Southdown - Commer Avenger - XUF 55 - 55

Southdown Motor Services Ltd
1960
Commer Avenger IV
Harrington C35F

Southdown, ever primarily a Leyland operator (though Guy got a look in from time to time) also had a modest requirement for lighter chassis. Despite having operated the OB model successfully, Southdown then eschewed the Bedford SB when it looked for a lightweight coach chassis in the late 1950s. It is understandable that the Bedford petrol engine did not appeal, and the alternative Perkins R6 was not a very attractive diesel option either. From 1960 Bedford offered the SB with a Leyland engine, but even this did not entice the Southdown company. Instead, whilst still favouring Leyland’s lightweight Tiger Cub, hitherto highly conservative Southdown became surprisingly interested in the unconventional Tilling Stevens TS3 opposed piston, three cylinder, horizontal two stroke engine, and bought 25 Beadle Rochester C41F coaches in 1956-57. In 1959, after further Tiger Cub deliveries, Southdown returned to the TS3 engine with a batch of 15 Commer Avengers with Burlingham C35F bodies, their first from this coachbuilder since the 1930s. Another batch of 15 Avengers followed in 1959-60, but these were given Harrington Crusader Mk1 C35F bodies. The Beadles and the Commers all gave up to 12 years service with Southdown, the last being sold off in 1971. I recall seeing – and hearing – the Avengers quite regularly on the Brighton service along the A23. Their distinctive sound was unmistakeable. Seen here tucked away in a corner of Victoria Coach Station in 1960 is the last of the Harrington batch, No.55, XUF 55.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

10/03/16 – 15:45

I hope the panelling and upholstery had sound deadening qualities of the highest order. Detroit diesels of the period had a reputation for noise but the TS3 was in a league of its own!

Phil Blinkhorn

11/03/16 – 05:56

A further batch followed 41-55 shown in Roger’s picture. There were 15, numbered 56-70 (56-70 AUF) and were also bodied by Harrington. I assume that they were identical to the earlier batch, but my memory of seeing them can no longer recall any detailed differences, if any. I have just looked through the 2-volume history of Southdown by Colin Morris (Venture 1994), and the Vol.2 fleet list only prints the Beadle-Commers 1-25, and has neither list or photo of the Commer Avengers 26-70! Perhaps he had been deafened by the first 25?

Michael Hampton

11/03/16 – 05:56

It may be the angle of the photograph but this vehicle has a rather narrow look about it. Were these coaches 7ft 6ins. or 8ft. wide?

Chris Barker

11/03/16 – 05:57

I’m not sure, Phil. I’ve been in a TS3-engined bus only twice: once in recent years in a preserved coach at King Alfred Running Day at Winchester, and once fifty years ago driving some folk from Reading to Portchester, Hants, in a coach belonging to Spiers of Henley-on-Thames. As to the noise emanating from the exhaust pipe I agree with you all the way, but inside the vehicles things seemed reasonably quiet. Perhaps I enjoyed the sound so much that I was making undue allowances for it…
Commers raise a question in my mind: are they really a lightweight in the same sense as a Bedford or a Ford is?
We often call the Leyland Tiger Cub a lightweight, but I’d prefer a term like “three-quarterweight” or “quality lightweight”, since the feel of a Tiger Cub is solid and precise, like that of a heavyweight. In the same way a Guy LUF is every bit as solid as the over-heavy UF.
On that basis perhaps the Commer is a “five-eighths-weight”.
Interested to hear fellow OBP-ers’ views.

Ian Thompson

11/03/16 – 12:05

I don’t recall seeing any of these at all – were they based in Portsmouth?
I’ve found a photo of one of each batch side-by-side and they look identical. SEE //tinyurl.com/z49qe6x

Chris Hebbron

11/03/16 – 15:26

That’s a fine image of the two examples from each batch standing together. The only difference I can see is that the XUF driver’s mirrors are attached at the top of the windscreen, whereas the AUF mirrors are attached at the bottom. (And of course the windscreen wipers are facing in opposite directions…). My 1970 fleet list (SEC) shows the Portsmouth allocation as 6 XUF + 3 AUF [9], Eastbourne 4 XUF + 3 AUF [7], Worthing 7 AUF, and Brighton 5 XUF + 2 AUF [7], so they were quite well spread along the coast. The earlier Burlingham bodied batch (26-40) were at Eastbourne (3), Brighton (6), and Chichester (6). This is likely to have been their final allocations as Roger Cox notes that they had all gone by 1971, and the list I’m quoting from is accurate to 1st November 1970.

Michael Hampton

12/03/16 – 05:47

There is one more minor difference between them and that is that the XUF’s sported only a nearside spotlight; the AUF’s, one each side. Thanks, for the allocation details, Michael. You’d have thought that Southdown would have kept them all at one depot for ease of maintenance. Whilst I was looking for a photo of the other batch, I noticed photos of some of these vehicles working for contractors, showing that some had a further life beyond Southdown.

Chris Hebbron

12/03/16 – 05:48

I think all of Southdown Commer coaches and all of the Commer-powered Beadle coaches were eight foot wide. The reason that the Harrington-bodies look narrow is that they are tall compared to similar bodies on Thames or Bedford chassis.

Stephen Allcroft

Roger Cox

Thanks, Michael for reminding me that there was a further batch of the Harringtons. The straight framed Avenger was introduced in 1949, and the overall dimensions of the 109 bhp 4.75 litre six cylinder petrol engined Mk I were 27ft 6ins by 7ft 6ins. In 1952 the Mk II increased the available dimensions to 30 ft by 8ft, but the petrol engine was retained. Then, in 1954, the Mk III appeared offering the TS3 engine as an option, and this became the Mk IV from 1956 when the petrol and smaller chassis alternatives were dropped. The standard rear axle ratio was 4.3 to 1, but the Eaton two speed axle was also offered. Taking up Ian’s point about internal noise, the compact horizontal engine was installed over the front axle where the (no doubt well insulated) floor went over it, and this contributed to the apparent height of the vehicle. The engine was thus some way forward of the main saloon. Externally, of course, it was a different matter, and one could hear TS3 powered coaches and lorries approaching when they were still leagues distant. The TS3 engine developed 105 bhp at 2400 rpm, but as with other large two strokes, the torque curve was very peaky. Torque rose from 245 lb ft at 800 rpm to a maximum of 270 lb ft at 1200 rpm, but then fell away sharply to 225 lb ft at the 2400 rpm governed speed. Theoretically, the 3.26 litre two stroke TS3 equated to a four stroke motor of about 6.5 litres, though some efficiency and power losses inherent in the type, notably the requirement for a Roots blower to aid induction and scavenging of the cylinders, does prejudice a direct comparison. Nevertheless, as an illustration, the Gardner 5LW of 6.974 litres yielded 300 lbs ft of torque across the entire working speed range. At 1700 rpm the TS3 delivered only some 87 bhp against the 94 bhp of the Gardner. Even so, fuel consumption figures of up to 20 mpg were claimed for the TS3. The standard gearbox in the Avenger Mk IV was a four speed synchromesh unit, for which an optional overdrive was available, but a close ratio five speed constant mesh box was also offered. I am not sure which of these the Southdown coaches had, though I suspect the synchromesh. According to my records, the bare chassis weight of the Avenger was 3.125 tons, the maximum permissible gross weight being 9 tons. The maximum gross weight figure for the contemporary Bedford SB was 8.26 tons. The unladen weight of a bodied contemporary Tiger Cub was about 6 tons, which, with the full added weight for passengers, fuel, luggage etc, would raise this to a maximum of around 9 tons. Perhaps, as Ian suggests, the Avenger was in a similar weight category to the Tiger Cub rather than that of the lighter Bedford.

Roger Cox

13/03/16 – 14:54

Thx for the extra information, Roger. 20mpg was very good fuel consumption and quite possible the prime reason, along with reliability, why this engine was so popular, when two strokes were not highly regarded generally. I don’t know how general is the knowledge that Rootes were well into developing a four-cylinder version of the engine, with several prototypes on the bench. However, this was stymied by the Chrysler takeover and a clash with a similar effort between Chrysler and Cummins. This resulted in a TSR2 scenario, with orders to scrap all traces of this engine’s existence. Suffice to say that the Cummins engine was a complete failure and with the Plan B TS4 scrapped, that was it. There are some stupid people about! The full story can be found here: //tinyurl.com/gvjjutt

Chris Hebbron

14/03/16 – 06:52

I can confirm that my TS3 Rochester regularly achieves 18/20 mpg unless on a hilly route.
My father was development driver for the TS4 and I believe there is a thread somewhere on here about that engine

Roger Burdett

19/03/16 – 17:34

Roger Burdett’s actual consumption of 18-20 mpg for his TS3 Rochester is very impressive. The power saved by having no valvegear to drive must be more than balanced by the energy needed to drive the Roots blower, and all those extra large moving parts look as though they ought to sap power, but evidently not. Since simple crankcase-scavenge 2-stroke engines—whether petrol or diesel—always show poor fuel consumption, it’s easy to assume that all 2-strokes are thirsty by nature, yet the most economical prime mover ever built was the Wärtsilä-Sulzer RT-flex 96C 2-stroke marine engine, which is well worth Googling, until it was recently just overtaken by a 4-stroke engine (model 31) by the same Finnish builder. Both these engines are admittedly a trifle bulky for a coach, but they show what’s possible.
Roger, how does the consumption of your rear-engined Foden coach compare with that of other vehicles of a similar weight?

Ian Thompson

21/03/16 – 09:00

Ian my Foden consumption is around 12mpg but is inherently more unreliable than the Commer. The fuel system is more complex with a hydraulic governor and to be honest has not had the use it deserved. My LS Gardner powered which is comparable weight is c13.5mpg. The Leylands do around 12 and the Midland Reds 10.
As a rule all my Gardners do 13-14mpg whether 5LW; 6LW, or 6HLX except for my Tilling Stevens which with an overdrive 6LW does 17/18. The Commer is 3.1 litre with no overdrive but is incredibly fuel efficient as you say with the direct injection and a fairly low vehicle weight. The Roots blower once it is moving has far fewer parts than a a vehicle with valve gear. I do run the vehicle between 55-65mph on the motorway which always surprises speed limited modern coaches!

Roger Burdett

14/09/16 – 14:05

3190 UN

Here is a picture of my TS3 Avenger IV The Commer stands at 11 foot high so does look narrow but it is in fact the height that creates the illusion.
Yes 20 mpg is returnable without difficulty, as is cruising at 60 mph.

Russell Price

15/09/16 – 06:46

Those consumption figures for the TS3 engine underline the utter folly of Chrysler in abandoning the promising TS4 development. That engine would have surely been a winner, giving up to 200 bhp and 465 lb ft torque at 1800 rpm, all from 4.7 litres. The TS3 also proved to be outstandingly reliable, the weakest part apparently being the drive to the Roots blower. In playing the American card and going for V6/V8 from Cummins, Chrysler bought possibly the worst engine lemons ever to go into volume production. It’s a miracle that Cummins survived that debacle. On that note, there is a picture on the following site of a Black & White Daimler Roadliner fitted with a TS3 engine:- www.flickr.com/photos/  
I gather that it performed quite satisfactorily, and I wonder why others didn’t try this conversion. Today large two stroke engines fall foul of emission regulations, but the TS4 could have had its heyday well before those rules came into force.

Roger Cox

16/09/16 – 06:24

My father was test driver at Rootes for the TS4 and noise would have killed it as the harmonics were much greater than the Cummins. Let us not forget Cummins was part of Chrysler at that time and the V6/V8 production was only a small part of a big world wide conglomerate.
My father drove the V8 everyday in lorry form and units used to go Coventry-Linwood return 6 days per week up days back nights (different driver). That was 3500 miles per week. Reliability was an issue but never as great as in the Buses or the AEC V8 in the lorries

Roger Burdett

16/09/16 – 06:24

I believe it was noise regulations of 1972/3 that finally killed off the TS3 and TS4. I would agree in 30 odd years of owning it is a well engineered reliable machine.

Russell Price

16/09/16 – 13:35

I was working for Chrysler in Truck development at the time of the TS4. As we understood it, the TS4 greatly outperformed the Cummins V6/V8 in all aspects, but Cummins (a major part of Chrysler at the time) had invested a lot of cash in the V6/V8 and they did not intend to lose it! All the tooling for the TS4 had been ordered & delivered to the Whitley plant in Coventry, where it was put into store and eventually sold for scrap…brand new & unused. It was said at the time that caused the collapse and subsequent closure of Herbert Machine Tools. Cummins “Red Engines” had a number of unusual design feature. They were high speed diesels, which was a problem since drivers were not used to revving a diesel to get performance. In fact a special rev counter was fitted to the trucks with a green band (gear shifting range) and a blue band, complete with a sticker that read “Always drive in the blue band”. All fuel lines were drilled into the block, so it was a “clean” engine on the outside, but a problem if you got a blocked fuel line. Originally fitted with rocker operated 3 hole injectors, they suffered a bit of fuel starvation. This was overcome by changing to 5 hole injectors, which were slightly taller than the 3 hole and so necessitated changing the push rods, otherwise, bent push rods and a very unhappy engine! How do we know this? Let’s just say put it down to personal experience and move on!! The V8 was 185hp and the V6 was 160 hp. I think the only production Dodge that had the V6 was the L600, low height chassis, whereas Guy Motors took the V6 for a full size truck (Guy Warrior I think). The failure rate on the Red Engines was huge and we had a large pile of dead engines in the Whitley compound (Chrysler truck development relocated to Coventry from Luton & Dunstable at the end of the 1960’s). I hope this is of interest to you.

David Field

16/09/16 – 17:09

Thanks to David Field for the latest comments. The engine Guy used in the Big J was the VIM v-6 & Vine v-8. These were going to be built in the UK at the former Henry Meadows factory in a joint venture with Jaguar which did not go through. To bring things back to buses it was the Cummins VIM v-6 of 9.6 litres and 192bhp that was launched in the Daimler Roadliner.

Stephen Allcroft

17/09/16 – 05:11

A further bit of trivia regarding the TS3. Lord Rootes was a man who was not renowned for great judgement or making the best decisions. For example, after WW2 he was offered a choice of German engineering businesses as reparation for the damage done to Rootes group factories in UK. His options were VW car manufacturing or a rather strange and obscure 2 stroke engine being developed for aeroplanes (Heinkel I think). He chose the latter, apparently on the basis that the VW would never prove to be popular!
Does anyone know if TS3 engine PSV’s used the Maxiload oil bath air cleaner (located under the passenger seat on the truck) and the Cooper’s self cleaning muffler? Why I ask is because when the TS3 was stretched to 135hp in it’s final form (a stretch too far) one of the problems was that the blower shaft would snap. The first sign of this was a drop in power and the second sign was black oily smoke pouring out through the air filter – not good in a PSV. The quick way of replacing the shaft was to remove the radiator to get to the front of the engine. The front part of the broken shaft was easy to get at, but the rear part involved careful use of a couple of welding rods fused together and poked down the hole. The idea was that you would strike an arc onto the steel shaft and not the alloy block! I was wondering how you get to the front of the engine in both the Harrington and Plaxton bodies featured.
The Coopers muffler would probably scare passengers and other road users half to death today. Carbon was allowed to build up in the muffler until a certain back pressure and exhaust gas temperature was reached. There was then a discernible loud pop as the carbon ignited and was sent out through the tail pipe, as a trail of sparks and sometimes even the odd flame. Very impressive at night on the motorway!

David Field

17/09/16 – 11:41

The posts about the fascinating TS3/4 have been very interesting. Your point, David F, about the Coopers muffler spewing forth sparks reminds me of being in a express steam train, in the mid-1950’s, spewing out glowing smuts whilst climbing Shap Fell flat out at night. It was like descending into Dante’s Inferno! Not a time to put one’s head out of the window!

Chris Hebbron

17/09/16 – 18:36

Hmm yes the standard air filter on an Avenger IV is indeed right under the front double seat alongside the driver! It is essential to use silencers on a TS3 with the correct amount of back pressure. I have on several occasions had flames out of the exhaust of UN mainly when running well last time was on the A419 Swindon Cirencester section. The access to the engine is absolutely dire!! wont say more

Russell Price

07/08/17 – 06:41

Having had only fleeting experience of the Commer marque in my early days at SMS – 45 and 60 I think being the two we had at our depot – I really can’t think of a good word to say about them. The potential brake fade and a sound like an Atco powered football rattle were enough to put me off for life.
However, from before my time, am I right in thinking that the first batch (pre-Harrington) were the notorious ones that eventually ended up derelict in Bognor Yard with brambles etc growing through them? There was a story that the design didn’t allow for the removal of the engine which was an integral requirement in an ‘E Dock’, and they were consigned to Bognor as that maintenance time came. Thereafter, anyone saying ‘Bognor Yard’ about something was immediately understood as meaning ‘throw it away’.

Nick Turner

Southdown – Bedford OB – JCD 371 – 71


Photograph by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Southdown Motor Services
1948
Bedford OB
Duple C27F

Another example of the ubiquitous Bedford OB/Duple coach, but bought by an operator who eschewed non-standard, other than for specific purposes. For this purpose, a Leyland/Harrington vehicle would not do!
Hayling Island, to the East of Portsea Island (Portsmouth) led a very quiet existence until the mid “30”s, when the first stirrings emerged and it became popular as a seaside resort, with a holiday camp. However, it suffered from a weak road bridge (and rail bridge, too, but that”s another story!) and Southdown purchased two Dennis half-cab Falcons in 1939, running to and from the island from Havant on the mainland.
However, although they were light enough to traverse the bridge, they were only allowed to do so if the vehicle was empty, thus, all passengers had to alight and proceed across the bridge on foot, re-joining the bus the other side!
They performed this task alone, until the two Bedfords were bought in 1948 with standard 27-seat Duple coach bodies and numbered 70 and 71 (JCD 370 and 371). Like the Dennis Falcons, they were acquired for the Hayling Island services because they were lightweight vehicles. However, being coaches, unlike the Falcons, their duties also included regular runs to London.
All four vehicles were withdrawn when a replacement bridge to the Island was built in the mid 1950s. Both Falcons were withdrawn entirely, but one survives (see HERE)
The Bedford/Duples were then transferred to other duties away from the area (No.70 was used for a while on bus services out of East Grinstead) with both being disposed of by 1960.

“Note that the coach is absolutely impeccable – a trademark of Southdown, who, for a large company, took a pride in their vehicles. Their name was always in “real writing” on their coaches (and open-top austerity Guy Arab II”s) but printed on their buses. The letters were always filled with gold leaf – no expense spared!
Also, note the driver in full Summer regalia, linen jacket, with cap! Those were the days.”

Photograph and Copy contributed by Chris Hebbron (with vehicle history assistance from Dick Gilbert – Classic Buses Website).

This photograph evokes fond memories of Southdown coaches regularly seen visiting Harrogate in the late sixties and early seventies. Their usual haunt was The Old Swan Hotel, an attractive and genteel establishment famous for being the one time hideaway of Agatha Christie, and very Southdown. The vehicles were usually Leyland Leopards with either Plaxton or Harrington coachwork, and Southdown used the hotel for overnight stays or as a base for excursions into the Yorkshire Dales and beyond, I seem to think. As with the Bedford Chris, the Leopards were always immaculately turned out. A coach in that rich green livery with gold script fleetname was simply a joy to behold and definitely a case of ‘less is more’ in terms of quality.
Hayling Island is also familiar, as in 1973 two West Yorkshire colleagues and I decided to spend a week at Warner’s Sunshine Holiday Centre – presumably that very same holiday camp mentioned in the text. We booked it as a bit of fun for the week, but also used it as a base to tour the area. I was therefore privileged to see many Southdown buses still in their original green and rich cream livery, with relatively few in the new NBC corporate leaf green and white. Again all were smartly presented. I can also vividly recall seeing the Tilling green buses of neighbouring Hants & Dorset running alongside some similar buses repainted in the new livery of NBC poppy RED – including an early LD Lodekka in Gosport still with its long radiator grille!
On the subject of fleetnames, like Southdown, United was another operator to use gold script on its coaches and block capitals on its buses, if memory serves correctly. In either operator’s case, the liveries were certainly much classier than some of the vinyl-clad ‘circus wagon’ offerings we have seen since from some quarters.

Brendan Smith

The first dedicated vehicles bought by Southdown for the Hayling Island services were 6 TSM B39’s with lightweight Short bodies in 1933. These were followed by 6 Leyland Cub SKPZ2’s with Park Royal B26R bodies in 1936, and 11 Leyland Cheetah LZ3&4 Coaches in 1938/39. The TSMs were commandeered by the War Office 1940. After the war 10 Dennis Falcon P4’s with Dennis 30 seat bus bodies arrived in 1949, and the 2 Bedfords augmented the Cheetahs on the Express Service to London and local excursions.
The 2 prewar Falcons were purchased in 1939 for the Tramocar service on Worthing Sea Front, and moved to Hayling Island in 1950. In addition there was an open top service using Leyland TD1’s along the sea front in summer. Also there was the train from Havant using Stroudley A1x tank engines.
In the late 40s and early 50s it was a wonderful place for a young transport enthusiast.

Pat Jennings

22/01/12 – 06:58

Not quite in the same vein, but when I was a child many many years ago I used to sit in a coach belonging to “Unique Coaches” on Brighton seafront waiting for the “Unique” day trip to commence, while numerous Southdown buses rolled past around the giant roundabout outside the Palace Pier, They had class and style, I remember them well. As a matter of interest does anyone else remember Unique Coaches.

Tony

22/01/12 – 09:16

Hi, Tony. Maybe I’m dyslexic, (or more probably just going senile and getting mixed up), but although I don’t remember ‘Unique’ coaches on Brighton seafront, I have a recollection of ‘Ubique’ coaches. Could we be thinking of the same operator? As for the Southdown buses rolling around the Palace Pier roundabout, there was a wee scam on some local services that Inspectors on regulating duties at Pool Valley needed to look out for. A few crews, (not many), due to be relieved would occasionally try to make an extra, unscheduled trip around Old Steine, thus arriving ‘late’ and so getting covered for the first trip of the later part of their shift.

Roy Burke

22/01/12 – 17:27

What a treat to see this lovely picture. My opinion of the beautiful little Bedford OB/Duple coaches was that they were classically handsome, had a welcoming and “friendly” expression, and could claim a very creditable, honest, and comfortable performance rarely matched by any other vehicle of similar general specification. What I’d give these days to hear that wonderful pure third gear wail diminishing magically into “trolleybus standard” quietness upon engaging top.

Chris Youhill

23/01/12 – 07:29

Try this YouTube clip for size, Chris Y. Start from 3mins, or shut your eyes from the beginning to that point, or you’ll get a headache! It’s ears that matter here! //www.youtube.com/

Chris Hebbron

23/01/12 – 10:13

Thank you Chris for that – my word what wonderful condition for a “utility” – someone has put some professional work into keeping that little gem in such superb condition throughout. I particularly like the “service bus” white bell push midway along the nearside. I shall now enjoy my breakfast garnished with just the mildest whiff of lovely petrol vapour – if I’d known of this bus in 2007 I might have been tempted to travel to Wales for a ride !!

Chris Youhill

24/01/12 – 05:44

Please allow me to thank you too Chris for the YouTube OWB!!
I love to listen to good music, especially a good New Orleans Jazz Band, but this has to be the Number 1 of the Top Twenty Hit Parade of all time!.
What a superbly evocative sound! It brings it all back, and the last 60 years just slip away!
I’m back in Bridlington in 1948, aboard a White Bus Service OWB.
Absolutely wonderful. Any ideas about re-experiencing other such music, say a 5LW in a Bristol “J”, or anything else of equal concert variety?
Thanks again

John Whitaker

24/01/12 – 08:17

Daimler CVD6 with fluid flywheel waiting at a stop….? Anywhere?

Joe

24/01/12 – 08:17

I’m with you there in Queen Street waiting to depart for Flamborough John – Bridlington was my second home from infancy to mid thirties, and White Bus, Williamsons and EYMS were fascinating beyond description. Did you notice the incredible coincidence in the numbers of the two White Bus OWBs ?? – ASD 149 and EWW 149 !!

Chris Youhill

24/01/12 – 09:26

Thank you Chris H for such a super link which I have listened to with rapture. The Bedford OWB “music” is one you never forget. Many of my postings include a reference to sound so I wonder whether Peter might consider a new section on this site?

Richard Fieldhouse

24/01/12 – 09:27

We have a common heritage Chris! I just loved WBS, but honestly had not noticed the reg. coincidence. Lighthouse, north Landing, Thornwick Bay. What wonderful destination names they had.
I can still see a Halifax Regent at the Lighthouse turn, where some friends from Bradford had a PLSC holiday bungalow, just under the old tower!
Our bungalow was a Bradford tram, on the other side of Brid, at Skipsea, where my love of EYMS originated, with childhood memories of oval rear windows, and 3 window upper deck fronts!
Them wer`t days!

John Whitaker

24/01/12 – 10:37

John…I’ve just loaded my film of Bristol L KLJ 749 ex Hants & Dorset 779 which you might like. I’m sorry the passengers are nattering away with excitement but the bus is still doing a fine job on the way out along the A37 from Whitchurch near Bristol towards Pensford. You can view it at this link.//www.youtube.com/

Richard Leaman

24/01/12 – 10:38

…..but the musical sounds of these veteran and vintage gearboxes is a big part of what it is about for us oldies. They give character to the vehicles which is singularly lacking in the hoards of modern, soul-less sewing machines – no matter how good they may be in a definitive sense. AEC Regents (I – V), Guy Arabs and petrol Bedfords step up to plate (in particular) for post war honours.

David Oldfield

24/01/12 – 15:42

Here is the second video that you may wish to watch and listen to.
This is Bristol L C2736 on Bristol Bus Running Day with some superb gear changing! //www.youtube.com/

Richard Leaman

25/01/12 – 05:08

There was a small independent in Derbyshire who ran two services from his home village, Crich (home of the National Tramway Museum) to Derby, shopping service on Fridays and to Ripley on Saturdays. The rest of the week he was a coal merchant! His fleet was just two Bedford OB’s both bought new and I spent many happy hours as a youth travelling on them. One thing I’ve often wondered is, given that some operators re-bodied OWB’s in the late 40’s with Duple Vista bodies, what exactly was the difference between the two chassis?

Chris Barker

25/01/12 – 06:45

I stand to be corrected but I don’t think there was much, if any, difference. W was the “war” designation – just as the difference between Daimler’s COG/CWG/CVG. There may have been the use of war-time materials – Guy Arabs were heavier as a result.

David Oldfield

25/01/12 – 13:12

Hi Richard, and thanks for the wonderful “Bristolian” sound tracks. A whole new sphere of interest could open up here!
Regarding wartime Bedfords, and other makes for that matter, many alloys, and aluminium were unavailable, and had to be replaced by ferrous metals. or other materials with better availability. This tended to increase overall weight, but otherwise, I am led to believe that, design wise, there was very little difference between, say COG5 and CWG5 Daimlers, and OB and OWB Bedfords.

John Whitaker

26/01/12 – 05:50

On the subject of gearbox music, I must put in a word for the Crossley. Whatever else may have been wrong with them, there was never a sweeter transmission sound than that.

Peter Williamson

I am at the moment working on a new page for the site titled ‘Old Bus Sounds’ which will be a bus sound reference library. Should go live this weekend hopefully.

Peter

26/01/12 – 10:48

I don’t recall any noticeable transmission delights with Portsmouth’s DD42’s, but they had Brockhouse Turbo Converters, presumably with different transmission.
However, when most of them were converted to house Leyland TD engines, the TD gearboxes were fitted with the engines. That gave them a new sound dimension as well as fooling some folk!
Their sole 1931 Crossley (later converted into a breakdown tender, now preserved) has a wealth of interesting noises – //www.youtube.com/

Chris Hebbron

27/01/12 – 06:16

Aluminium was in short supply in the automotive field during World War II, as John points out, due to its increased use in helping the war effort, and as a result many vehicle components had to be made of other materials. Gardner, for example used cast iron for its LW crankcases, endplates, sumps, water pump and fuel injection pump bodies etc, for the duration. From their point of view, as they already offered this option on their marine range of engines this would not have been too much of a problem – provided they could get the cast iron! From an operating point of view the extra weight must have had a somewhat detrimental effect on fuel economy and performance though. For a few years in the 1980’s a cast iron 5LW languished in the bike shed at West Yorkshire Road Car’s Central Repair Works. Where it came from and where it went to remain two of life’s little mysteries unfortunately. (I was informed by a knowledgeable United CRW fitter some years ago that the cast iron wartime Gardners had one piece cylinder blocks fitted instead of the usual pairs).
Thanks to Chris and Richard for passing on the delightful Bedford and Bristol sound effects and film clips. Wonderful stuff. Just as Chris Y was transported back to ‘Brid’ with the Bedford, I was instantly transported back to the 1960’s, riding on a West Yorkshire Bristol L on service 58 between Bradford and Shipley – only this time I didn’t need to pay! I wish you well with the ‘Old Bus Sounds’ Peter. It should prove very popular, and what a brilliant idea. Can’t wait for the first ‘instalment’!

Brendan Smith

27/01/12 – 06:33

Many thanks, Chris H, for the wonderful Condor link: I’d never seen or heard that running before but the video is as good as being there on the spot. Thanks too to Richard L for the Bristol L link: I’m afraid the bloke with the cap and rucksack, blocking the forward view, is me!
The idea of an Old Bus Sounds page is brilliant. Long live the straight-cut geartooth!

Ian Thompson

27/01/12 – 08:40

Gentlemen, thank you for the very kind comments and Ian, you were enhancing the view, not blocking it! In case anyone was wondering, the route on C2736 was from Bristol Temple Meads along the A4 Bath Road, past the former Colthurst and Harding paint works, Arnos Vale Cemetery gates, the imposing stone building with the tall archway is Brislington Tram Depot (still in fine order and use by Bristol Council, then up the hill to finish just as we arrive at the remains of the entrance to the Bristol Commercial Vehicles Ltd.

I thought that it may be of interest to show the two buses in the clips and also a set of Bedford OB/OWB pictures which I took at the Kemble Steam Fair in August 2008. For those of us delighted by the OB gearbox, on that occasion, it was possible to hear eighteen of them all at once as they did a “convoy” lap! They can be seen at this link.

Richard Leaman

27/01/12 – 08:42

Your comment, Brendan, brought back some very evocative memories of East Parade. Jack Lawrence was a most impressive person. I can’t claim to have known a great many Traffic Managers, but of the ones I ever met, he was in a class apart. He was authoritative and clearly had his fingers firmly, (and intelligently), on the pulse of every aspect of the company’s operations. Gordon Dingle – a lovely man, and I was sad to learn that he has passed on – was at that time in charge of the Charting Department which controlled the loadings for the whole Yorkshire Pool and also the hiring of dozens of independent coaches for WY’s summer Saturday coastal stage carriage operations. Efficient, effective and profitable.
Maidstone & District, (and I repeat my great regard for that company), applied a diametrically opposed policy on their London express services, although in practice they were very similar. Sadly, that policy was dreadfully inefficient in its use of vehicles and was expensive in wages. It was actually difficult even to work out the true operating cost of any of those important services, a situation I couldn’t conceive at WY.
It would be diplomatic to avoid another reference to Southdown here, Brendan. I’m glad you still have a soft spot for them.

Roy Burke

27/01/12 – 14:24

Here are some more Bedford OB sounds – Wonderful ! //www.youtube.com

John Stringer

28/01/12 – 09:08

That’s a brilliant clip, John. I’m just old enough to recall the petrol-engine’d London Transport LT’s with open staircases, which sounded much like these vehicles.
Grossly overloaded in the late-forties, they would pull away with juddery clutch biting and more than the shaky wow-wow sound at low revs. I also drove a petrol-engine’d Austin K6 across Scotland once, which was full of character, but the gearbox was quieter than the Bedford’s, though far from quiet! All that double de-clutching was fun!

Chris Hebbron

28/01/12 – 11:07

I had no idea that wartime Gardner engines were themselves subject to wartime material alteration , so thanks Brendan, for that interesting fact.
Its good to hear also that my external feel for the efficiency of WYRC is borne out in fact by those “in the know”!
I am with you Brendan on that L5g between Bradford and Shipley.

John Whitaker

28/01/12 – 16:23

Hello Roy you are quite right about the name Unique Coaches of Brighton and their stand on Marine Drive, they were painted in a very attractive dark green livery. If my aged memory is right I think their garage was close to Brighton station just down the hill leading down to Old Steine it may have been Trafalgar Street but I am far from certain of that. My recollections date back to the late 50’s early 60’s the fleet at that time included at least one Harrington bodied Bedford SB.

Diesel Dave

10/07/12 – 18:31

Found a shot of Unique Harrington bodied SB3 1800CD on Flickr. Just Google Unique Coaches Brighton and click on Images. Southdown had 2 batches of Commers with similar Harrington bodies (Not one of their better efforts!)
Their depot was in Trafalgar St., and the livery was two shades of green. I believe they later sold out to another local operator ‘Campings’

Roy Nicholson

14/09/12 – 07:28

Just read some of the stories above, Southdown always had a good looking fleet with good maintenance. As a 15/16 year old I worked at the Royal Parade depot in Eastbourne until I came to Australia. I remember Arthur Martin and all the other guys saying then that Southdown had some of the best buses/coaches in the country, nice to see it, 50 years in writing

Deryn Cox

06/12/14 – 06:44

What is the unladen weight of 1948 Bedford OB Coach?? Can it be driven on UK Licence, A, B1, B, BE, as it is Vintage and not used for passenger carrying, just for Showing???

Bradley Borland

06/12/14 – 12:41

The unladen weight of a Bedford OB/Duple Vista coach was 3tons 14cwt.

Chris Hebbron

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

07/04/15 – 07:00

Not a technical question much as I enjoyed reading through all the information and comments about the Southdown Bus Company.
I am now aged 78. As a schoolboy in the late forties/early fifties I lived at Felpham, near Bognor Regis. The Southdown buses that then passed through Felpham were the 31, 50, 50A and 69.
As a boy I remember being told that the 31 then running from Brighton to Portsmouth was the longest bus journey in England that would stop at every Request Stop (if required) during the length of its journey.
I should be pleased to hear if any one can confirm that this was indeed correct.

Ross Sarel

08/04/15 – 06:20

I’d say, Ross, that the 31 from South Parade Pier, Southsea, to Brighton (Marine Parade?) via Worthing would be about 66 miles, but stand corrected. Although not in England, in the late 1950’s, during my National Service, Western SMT had a normal double-deck route which ran from Stranraer to Glasgow, via Ayr Depot, for re-fuelling and toilet break. It was about 85 miles long and took four hours. The longest normal bus route I know of was Midland Red’s X91 service, running twice a day between Leicester and Hereford along the following route: Leicester – Hinckley – Nuneaton – Coventry – Kenilworth – Leamington Spa – Warwick – Stratford-on-Avon – Evesham – Pershore – Worcester – Great Malvern – Malvern Wells – Ledbury – Hereford. It was something over 100 miles long and took 4.5 hours. The ‘X’ prefix really meant long-distance rather than express. We are talking of the 1950’s again. It used normal single-deck buses because of low-bridge problems and was busy enough to warrant duplicate vehicles at popular times.

Chris Hebbron

Southdown – Beadle – Leyland – MUF 488 – 649

Southdown - Beadle- Leyland - MUF 488 - 649

Southdown Motor Services Ltd
1953
Beadle – Leyland
Beadle FB31F

MUF 488 is one of those curious vehicles built by Beadles using Bedford or Leyland parts. The Leyland ones came from Tigers or Titans. In this case, the combination was delivered to Southdown in 1953, and has a FB31F body on TD5 running units. We see it outside the Southdown garage at Amberley on 13 September 2009.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

05/03/17 – 16:03

I suppose these days this would be called ‘recycling’. It is quite a nice looking coach although the front end lets it down a bit. Rather plain around the grille area and the joint between the upper windscreen sections and the destination display sits a bit uncomfortably.

Philip Halstead

06/03/17 – 07:08

If my information is correct, the NGT group had 18 of the type. They were all built on refurbished pre war AEC Regal chassis, and although mechanically an AEC down to the last nut and bolt., none of them carried AEC badges or logos. Northern had 10 FC35F versions DCN 83/92 – 1483/92; all similar to the example above, 1483 is currently undergoing restoration in the very capable hands of the NEBPT Ltd, who set themselves very high standards, I look forward to seeing the end result.
The other eight were for Wakefields Motors at Percy Main depot. Six were delivered in 1952, FT 7275/80 – 175/180, and were FC35F, the fronts differed to these, in that they had more bright trim, and an altogether softer look about them. A photo of 178 is posted elsewhere on this site. The other two FT 7791/2, 191/2 arrived in 1953, they were FC39F, as well as a larger seating capacity, they had a similar front to these which had a different destination layout incorporating a number section, to allow them to be used as D/P’s. All the P/M intake were different to those of NGT, in that they had twin cab doors and a full bulkhead separating the cab from the passenger saloon.
191/2 were sold to Garner Bridge of Weir, and 175/80 were exported to Yugoslavia of all places.

Ronnie Hoye

06/03/17 – 07:08

The running units for this coach came from pre-war Leyland Tiger TS8 FCD 368, which was delivered to Southdown in January 1939. The original Harrington B34R body, which had been temporarily converted to B30R perimeter seating (plus up to 30 standing) during the war, was rebuilt (not rebodied) by Portsmouth Aviation in August 1947. This body was removed and sold for scrap in February 1953, and the chassis was then cut to form front and rear running units for attachment to the integral Beadle body structure. The same construction principle was adopted some years later for the London Transport Routemaster. The Beadle body was offered in 30ft or 26ft lengths, and Southdown had examples of both. (Southdown also employed Beadle to fit full fronts of similar appearance to its Duple bodied PS1 coaches of 1947 to 1949 vintage.) Beadle Rebuilds (as the integral conversions became generally known) were introduced also at around the same time (early 1950s) by Maidstone and District and East Kent, again using Leyland running units.

Roger Cox

06/03/17 – 07:09

This vehicle has SOUTHDOWN in capital letters, which would make it a bus rather than a coach.

Chris Hebbron

06/03/17 – 17:12

Thanks for your thoughts, folks. The PSVC listing for this vehicle does not show whether it is TD or TS, but it does say B31F (not FB31F). Jenkinson says TD5 with FC35F. I note that his 1978 descriptions have been out of synch with other sources before! Chris H, yes, the general view is that it is a bus, but study the script on the front. I can understand why some consider it to be a coach. Now, where did we leave the discussion about bus, coach or dual-purpose?

Pete Davies

08/03/17 – 16:35

MUF 488 used the running gear from TS8 1468 (FCD368). It was delivered as a coach (888) but downgraded to bus work and renumbered 649 in 1958. Block lettering was usually, but not exclusively used on Buses. For example, the 15xx East Lancs Royal Tigers were delivered as DP’s with block lettering, but received ‘Mackenzie script’ when converted to OMO buses. The utility Guy open topers and Northern Counties DP Leopards also had ‘Mackenzie script’ and I have seen pictures of Beadle PD2/12’s similarly adorned. The front plaque with ‘Mackenzie script’ was a device used on many vehicles in place of the usual ornate Leyland marque badges. They were also used on ‘Queen Mary’s’. Hope this helps to clear up a few points noted previously.

Roy Nicholson

09/03/17 – 06:52

Thanks, Roy

Pete Davies

01/12/18 – 07:07

I recall this bus on omo operations with Southdown in the 50’s-60-s before sale to a Scout Group where it was painted blue. A friend of mine Ray Oliver from Chichester bought it and ran it for a time before selling it to whoever did the current repaint restoration. Alas we lost contact many years ago.

Keith Styles

03/12/18 – 09:26

I think the current owner has a couple of Southdowns and maybe this one will be out and about soon.

Roger Burdett

10/02/19 – 07:35

Re the Beadle re-bodied Southdown buses. Although they were mainly on the private hire/excursion work, they were used on a trial Service from Worthing to Steyning, I think numbered 66. The service ran from Worthing via North Lancing to the Sussex Pad, then along the narrow road to Bramber and Steyning. I don’t think it was a success.

Paul Kidger