United Automobile Services 1952 Bristol KSW6B ECW H32/28R
Following all the recent enthusiastic comment regarding the Western National KS5G photo, I thought I would submit this, taken from a recently rediscovered early slide of mine. United’s BH27 (originally BBH27), PHN 809, a KSW6B, is seen operating the 109 Seafront Service around North Marine Drive in Scarborough in 1966, previously the sole preserve of the dedicated ‘Queen Mary’ Bristol LWL’s. New in 1952, this fine machine was withdrawn the following year, and after being stored for a further year or so was sold to North’s, the dealer, who sold it for scrap.
Ah, Scarborough 1966 – my last year at school. We had a week’s geography field course in Scarborough. Stayed at a hotel on Castle Road, not far from the Court House where all the United town services started and terminated. I seem to remember many of them were in the hands of KSWs. We had some free time on the Sunday afternoon and three of us set off on a KSW out to Cloughton, then walked up the closed but still intact Whitby railway line as far as Stainton Dale station. Very picturesque and great fun.
Stephen Ford
29/03/12 – 11:44
As anyone who’s been on this site for long enough will know, I’m an AEC man. If you pay attention, you’ll also know I’m a Bristol/Bristol man. Many happy holidays, as a kid, in Scarborough confirmed this and Bristol engined KSWs like this (along with similar engined Lodekkas) are part of the happy memories. I can remember days like this along the Marine Drive – and also the sea fret which was like a cloak around you!
David Oldfield
29/03/12 – 17:57
I would imagine that the area covered by United must have made them ‘Geographically at least’ one of the biggest operators in the Tilling Group. Their territory included parts of the Scottish Border Region, the whole of Northumberland and Durham, parts of Cumberland and Westmoreland and a huge chunk of North Yorkshire, in addition, they had a lot of what would now be called ‘Inter City Express Routes’ including the legendary twice daily Tyne Tees Thames service. Apart from any vehicles that came into the fleet as a result of takeovers, they were all HN Darlington registrations. I don’t have a clue how many vehicles they had, but they were always immaculate and would put many an operator to shame
Ronnie Hoye
29/03/12 – 17:57
What a nostalgic shot this is, it looks to be a very bracing day on the Scarborough sea front. This one has special meaning for me as well, as I took some of my first bus photographs with the family Agfa at the Corner Cafe while on holiday in Scarborough in the summer of 1961. I ended up with quite a few rear end views, some better than others, simply because I was quite young and shy at the time, and thus a bit reluctant to point the camera at a bus load of passengers staring at me through the windows! Consequently I still have in my collection a rather nice shot of the back end of NHN 149, waiting to depart the North Sands terminus on local service 108 to Holbeck Road. Happy days.
Dave Careless
03/02/13 – 06:58
Brighton in the early 50s had a lot of B H & District Bristol buses and if anyone from Brighton remembers the route 14, on that route was a Bristol bus that seemed to have more power than its contemporise. The 14 served a cross country route from East Brighton to Hove. This particular bus must have been supercharged or something similar. I think the registration began with HAP…
United Automobile Services 1954 Bristol KSW6B ECW H32/28R
In this shot you can certainly see the difference in height between this highbridge KS and the height of the Lodekka both of which had the centre isle seating plan. The KS series succeeded the K series in 1950 when body length was increased from 26ft to 27ft, the extra foot was split equally between the bonnet length and the saloon. The reason for the extra 6in on the bonnet length was so the Gardner 6LW 8.4 litre diesel engine could be fitted without any modification being needed which was the case with the K series. Main production did not last very long as in 1953 the Lodekka went into production but I have read that the last KS was actually delivered in 1957. The “W” in the coding stood for wide meaning the body width was 8ft instead of 7ft 6in, there seems to be two schools of thought what the “S” stood for: (a) “Short” as if Bristol knew that a longer chassis would be allowed a few years later and “L” would be used to differentiate. (b) “Standard” being that the bonnet was of a standard length to allow installation of all engine variants. There is also the belief that all of the KS series were bodied by ECW (Eastern Coach Works).
I had been under the impression, that the “S” stood for “stretched” to 27′ Source: “The Pocket Encyclopaedia of Buses & Trolleybuses since 1945”, London, Blandford Press, 1968 p.115
David Cape
I was on a KSW at a rally today and overheard an apparently knowledgeable chap saying that the S indicated short, as opposed to KL which was going to be a 30-foot export model until Bristol’s government lords and masters prevented them from building for export at all. However, the apparently knowledgeable chap thought we were on a KS, not a KSW, so the usual pinch of salt applies.
Peter Williamson
The Bristol KS was introduced following an increase in permitted length for double deckers from 26ft to 27ft in mid-1950. Later that year, the maximum permitted width for all buses was increased from 7ft-6ins to 8ft. and Bristol responded with the KSW. (The ‘S’ apparently stood for ‘Standard’ or ‘Short’ length chassis, with the ‘W’ predictably denoting ‘Wide’). At that time the bus industry had hoped for an increase in length to 30ft for all buses, but in the event this was limited to single deckers. Bristol had envisaged extending the K type to 30ft long (KL/KLW) but this did not materialise as a result. When legislation did allow for 30ft double deckers in 1956, the Lodekka was in its ascendancy and so no KL/KLWs were built. ECW designed a 4-bay body for the KS-series and these could also be identified by the stepped panel below the windscreen. Although ECW bodied most of the KS-series chassis, Rotherham Corporation received six KS6Bs in 1950, fitted with East Lancashire bodies built in Bridlington. Rotherham was the only operator outside the Tilling Group to operate the KS as far as I am aware – these being ordered before the cut-off point following nationalisation of Bristol and ECW. Bristol/ECW were not allowed to supply vehicles to concerns outside the British Transport Commission, following nationalisation by the Labour government in 1948. The ban was to appease the Conservative opposition and private sector manufacturers, and to prevent what they claimed would be unfair competition. (A clause was included to this effect in the 1947 Transport Act as a result). Restrictions on ECW’s output were also imposed, even within the BTC empire itself. Had this not been the case maybe ECW would have bodied some of London’s RTs. The last KS (a KS6G) was delivered to Brighton, Hove and District in 1957, and the last KSW (a KSW6G) was delivered to Bristol Omnibus Company the same year.
Brendan Smith
Some 7ft 6in KS chassis received 8ft wide KSW bodies. Eastern Counties had quite a few, and a former ECOC driver reckoned in conversation that they needed to be driven rather gently when heavily laden, as they tended to lean alarmingly on bends.
Stephen Ford
Fascinating stuff indeed Brendan and I seem to recall that, nearer home, West Yorkshire had a few L and K type chassis with 8ft wide bodies. In my view this is a very dubious practice especially with lowbridge double deckers which are prone to “nearside leaning” at the best of times.
Chris Youhill
I tend to agree with you Chris. Fitting bodies six inches wider than originally intended for the chassis does not sound unreasonable in theory. However, in practice as you say it would lead to increased body roll when cornering. You’re comment about “nearside leaning” with lowbridge buses was interesting, and something I’d not previously given much thought to. To the uninitiated it must have been quite entertaining going around a tight right-hander at times, and things would no doubt liven up even more as the leaf springs became tired with age!
Brendan Smith
The last ‘K’ type Chassis built was indeed delivered in 1957. It was actually a ‘KS6G’ supplied to the ‘Brighton Hove & District Omnibus Company’ fleet number 500 and registered ‘MPM 500’. The reason for the reversion to 7’6″ Bodies was for two way operation in the narrow St. James’s Street in the heart of Kemptown, Brighton. St. James’s Street is nowadays one-way (eastbound). BH & D was one of the last former Tilling companies to take the ‘Lodekka’ which it did so in 1959, taking eight ‘LDS6B’ the fore-runner of the ‘FS’ Chassis with the recently introduced Bristol BVW Engine.
John
12/04/14 – 08:12
1 National Travel, Manchester United Driver from Scarborough who had purchased/preserved a 1930’s (?) Bristol half cab which he wanted to be transported in at his funeral! Memory is a bit vague as to whether the bus was rebodied etc. but I think it was a JOG type Bristol. Anyone got any ideas?
The United driver that Pete Bradshaw is thinking of was Charlie Bullock who owned a 1940 K5G, FHN 923, which have been converted to a recovery truck. His final journey to Scarborough crematorium in August 2012 at the age of 97 was indeed made on that vehicle.
Photograph from The late Robert F Mack collection.
Samuel Ledgard 1945 Bristol K6A ECW L27/26R
As featured in “An Arresting Experience” by Chris Youhill on the “articles” page here we have the vehicle in question. This vehicle was ex-United Automobile Services fleet number BAL 8 new to them in 1945 acquired by Samuel Ledgard in 1959 and served a further six years before being withdrawn from service in 1965. The Bristol K series was first produced in 1937 and had the high bonnet line as in the shot above until 1946, when the more familiar lower bonnet line was introduced as in the shot to the right. The above vehicle was one of 251 built after the recommencement of production in 1944 and were the wartime W1 and W2 series all of which had the AEC 7·7 litre six cylinder diesel engine hence the K6A code. As from 1946 the K series was also available with the Gardner 5LW and Bristols first diesel engine the AVW which was a 8·1 litre six cylinder unit. I am not sure what AVW and its successor the BVW stood for, I could guess that the V stood for vertical, if you know please leave a comment. The K series carried on in production until 1950 with over 3000 being built until the one foot longer KS version was introduced.
Photograph contributed by Chris Youhill
Am I right in believing that the difference in bonnet height is the post war “invention” of dropped front axles- and who thought of it first?
Joe
Sorry Joe but, as far as I can glean from publications on the Bristol “K” series, there is no difference at all in the front axles of the low and high radiator “K”s. Dropped front axles were virtually standard on all buses long before WW2. As you say, the apparent dramatic lowering of the radiators and bonnets would suggest some major structural redesign but seemingly not so – the improved appearance must have been achieved by cleverly reducing the clearance above the engine and by a pleasing new radiator design and mountings.
Chris Youhill
As an AEC man, it always struck me that the perfect bonnet line, as aspired to and achieved by London Transport in the RT, was only achieved in the provinces on the post-war Bristols and Guy Arabs.
David Oldfield
And Crossleys, surely?
Peter Williamson
As I signed off the last comment, a Manchester Crossley popped up on a picture and I thought……..and Crossleys!
David Oldfield
There cannot have been any structural difference in the “high” and “low” radiator K chassis, since after the war, many pre-war and wartime utility Bristols were rebodied,and the exercise frequently involved fitting the low radiator to modernize their appearance. Preserved West Yorkshire KDG 26 is a case in point.
David Jones
The ‘low’ radiator is a bit of a trick. The bottom of the working bit of the low radiator is no lower than the high version. If you examine one you will find that the bottom 4 or 5 inches of the low radiator is just decorative. I think I’m right in saying the higher top of the ‘high’ radiator is simply a result of the fact that petrol engines were a lot taller than diesels. When diesels replaced petrol from mid-1930’s there was a lot of fresh air under the bonnet. Hence the line of the bonnet was lowered and with it the top of the radiator.
Bristol’s parts code. The last letter refers to what it is – thus ‘W’ is an engine. The first engine would have been an ‘AW’. In the early 1930’s the ‘JW’ and ‘NW’ were respectively 6-cyl and 4-cyl petrol engines. Once they got to ‘ZW’ then they started again with ‘AAW’ an awful lot of the codes must have been either minor variants or omitted or design studies which were never built. I have no idea how they got as far as ‘AVW’ but that is how the code was arrived at.
Peter Cook
Bristol AVW. the “V” stands for Vertical, and the “W” stands for Water-cooled. The “A” & “B” were the series. AVW’s had dry liners, by far more reliable, and the BVW’s had wet liners, and known for self-destructing, more so when cooled by the diabolical Cave-Brown-Cave system
EE59051
Thanks to the enigmatic EE59051 for his comments. I have a enormous soft spot for Bristol engined Bristols, but it is interesting to note that they seemed to have similar problems to AEC a propos wet liner and dry liner engines.
David Oldfield
Thanks to EE59051 for that very justified comment on the dreadful Cave-Brown-Cave system. In the first place its ugly radiator apertures completely disfigured the vehicles to which it was fitted. More importantly it was absolutely dangerous to drivers in the event of any leakage, especially at full speed, and even at the tiny WYRCC depot at Ilkley there were instances of scalding in the one year that I worked there.
Chris Youhill
I’ve often wondered why companies persevered with the Cave-Brown-Cave system as long as they did, as it never quite seemed to work as the inventor intended. My grandma (a very forgiving soul) would often complain on her family visits, about the freezing cold journeys she had endured from Bingley to Harrogate. The culprits were usually observed to be CBC ‘heated’ Lodekkas. My brother and I would empathise as we often suffered the same discomfort when we visited her, travelling on the same type of bus. Airlocks seemed to be the main culprit, and could give rise to the strange phenomenon of passengers complaining of how cold their bus was, whilst at the same time said bus was observed boiling away merrily at the front end! As a West Yorkshire Central Works apprentice, I spent three months working at Grove Park depot, and if a Lodekka was taken out of service as a result of boiling, it was just parked up in the depot and allowed to cool down. It was then topped up with water, whilst someone else worked the engine to try and circulate it around the system. All being well, it would then be deemed ready for action again. The Lodekka water filler cap was still in its original position just above where the traditional radiator would have been. However, as the CBC radiators were set several feet higher on the top deck, many of us thought this to be the cause of the water circulation problems. Although the BVW engine had its faults – and with hindsight maybe Bristol might have been better staying with dry liners – later versions were generally viewed by West Yorkshire as being decent workhorses. The bottom-end seemed pretty bullet-proof, with many of our examples covering 300,000 miles or more between overhauls, without any crankshaft or bearing problems.
Brendan Smith
Cave-Brown-Cave heating is within my experience, just, but what type of heating was evidenced by a round chrome’y-grill’y protrusion from the front downstairs bulkhead of some buses and coaches and did the system do upstairs, too?
Chris Hebbron
Ah- Memory Lane again: those funny round “heaters” (Clayton Dewandre?- do I imagine that?) on Yorkshire Traction Leylands. Did they ever give off any heat…? Was there a box too under a seat upstairs? They were presumably like the car heaters of the day- a pipe off the cooling system?
Joe
You’re right about the make, Joe. I don’t think that their output was very inspiring, from my limited experience.
Chris Hebbron
The large round heaters with mesh fronts and a chrome “hood” were indeed made by Clayton Dewandre Limited of Titanic Works, Lincoln. They had an electric expulsion fan to blow out the warm air, and warm it certainly was providing that the water circulation was in order, and that the engine was running at a reasonably high temperature. The “boxes under the seats” were usually the excellent and efficient “KL” models, which also had a powerful electric fan. Wiring in both types was usually arranged so that the fans either stopped or slowed while the engines were ticking over at stops. When Samuel Ledgard acquired second hand buses in the later years of the Company it was the practice to install “KL” boxes in both saloons – normally two downstairs and one at the front of the top deck. All of these “retro fitted” heaters were highly efficient and were much appreciated by passengers and conductors alike. In particular I remember the ex Exeter Daimler CVD6/Brush models, where I’ve known passengers plead for them to be turned off in mid Winter – JFJ 55 being the hottest – courtesy of the hot running Daimler engines.
Chris Youhill
Clayton Dewandre indeed, but only for those who sat inside. Sheffield’s first upstairs heating was the horrendously noisy system on 1325 – 1349 (Regent V/Roe).
David Oldfield
I like your ‘inside’ and ‘upstairs’, David. Reminds me when I was young, after the war, there were still a lot of older conductors who shouted at boarding passengers, ‘Plenty of room outside’ even though open-top buses were long gone!
Chris Hebbron
Its an absolute delight reading all these posts about Sammy Ledgard. My memories go back to before Sammy died, and the “exors” were formed. In many ways, this was a more interesting period as the fleet had more “corporate” character, with its “standard” Leylands going way back. This is all in the days before grey came into the livery. Many had Green roofs. It was certainly an enthusiasts paradise after 1953 with the amazing variety of second hand purchases, but I think my most precious Sammy memory is the Butlers scrapyard just below the “Fox and Hounds” near Menston. In 1953/4, and for some time after, this was full of withdrawn Ledgard buses, some going back to the 1920s. They had been stored at Armley for years, Sammy never disposing of “owt” which might come in useful!
John Whitaker
29/03/11 – 07:35
I am pretty sure that the first Sheffield buses delivered with underseat heaters in the top deck were the ECW bodied PD2s of 1957 (1152/3 and 1292-1294). I recall travelling on the 12 to Chesterfield on one when virtually new and being most disappointed that the noise from the heater drowned out the note of the O.600 engine.
Ian Wild
29/03/11 – 13:22
Significant that they were JOC buses. I never remember them on the 12, nor do I remember 1152/3 without doors. Having never travelled on any of these buses, I bow to your superior knowledge.
David Oldfield
29/03/11 – 13:30
I was most interested in John Whitaker’s nostalgia about the Butler scrapyard at Eller Ghyll, Menston where a large number of Ledgard vehicles were dismantled after years of storage. It was a place where mixed feelings were always aroused – revelling in the range of vehicles which languished there, and yet incredibly sad at the same time.
Here is one of my early snapshots (if only digital had been around !!). The larger vehicle is one of the ex B & B Leyland Lion LT1/Burlingham pair, KW 7944/5. No prizes for identifying the other two buses – they are 40% of the fleet of five heroic little Bedford OWBs which served so valiantly at the Yeadon (Moorfield) depot. It is impossible for those unfamiliar with the territory to imagine how much heavy work those little champions handled on two of the most intense and heavily patronised routes – and of necessity overloading was common which made their performance even more remarkable and creditable. I’ve driven OB coaches myself and never failed to marvel at how these tough little classics performed – unashamedly noisily while “getting up to speed” in the first three gears and then with dignified very quiet tones in “top.” I still can’t believe how 28hp petrol engines (many private cars today have greater capacity and technology) could produce such splendid results under heavy pressure. What a crying shame that more souvenirs were not saved from these vehicles as I’m quite sure that Butler’s would have been amenable to the cause. The final sad insult to the little Bedfords was to have to languish there in full view of their successors, as their former lifetime route was less than a hundred yards away on the road above !!
Chris Youhill
30/03/11 – 06:07
1294 and 1295 (the first of the three contemporary Roe bodied PD2/20) were allocated to Leadmill Road Depot hence 1294 turning up frequently on the 12 to Chesterfield. I don’t remember the Roe trio (1295-1297) being delivered with saloon heaters. There was a restricted height bridge at Dronfield on service 12 and not all buses could be used on the Chesterfield service. I suspect the ECW bodies were of slightly lower overall height than the Roe bodies on the similar chassis as I never remember seeing 1295 on the 12 although the standard vehicles for the route at that time were Roe bodied Regent III 1251-1282. Different chassis make, slightly lower build?
Ian Wild
30/03/14 – 12:54
Imagine an engine block in profile and standing next to it a tall radiator. Hot water rising from the engine passes thru a large hose to the top of the radiator. Movement air passing thru the radiator cools the water which slowly sinks returning via the bottom hose to the engine block whence it rises again. This is the simple thermo-syphon system with the of necessity tall radiator which was fitted to most pre-war vehicles. It had many disadvantages. Big improvements were made. At atmospheric pressure water boils off so the cooling system was pressurised to raise the boiling temperature. A cooling fan was fitted to draw air through the radiator even whilst the vehicle was stationary. A thermostat controlled the temperature of the cylinder head. Most importantly, an impeller pump was fitted to increase the cooling water circulation speed thus vastly increasing cooling efficiency. Efficient radiators could be made much smaller and lower. This was a boon to the bodywork designers wishing to offer attractive lower profiles. This is the reason why lower outlines became possible. It has nothing to do with the engine which can be tilted or even, as in the Commer TS3 design, laid flat.
Peter Woods
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
05/02/16 – 06:33
Back to radiator height, I believe on the high radiator access for the crank handle was below the radiators bottom tank, whereas on the low radiator everything was lower because it was possible for the shaft of the crank handle to pass between the radiators tubes. This was not a new arrangement as Tilling Stevens B10s of the late 20s had this style of radiator. Bonnet height was often determined by whether air filters were fitted above the engine.
United Automobile Services 1958 Bristol LS6B ECW C34F
Photo taking out side Scarborough railway station this is where United started there coach tours from I always liked the mystery tours. There was 1409 Bristol LS (light Saloon) built between 1953 – 58. United must of liked them, as they were by far the biggest buyer having 328 of them.
A full list including Bristol and United codes can be seen here.
I think the coach is from the UC1-5 series and they were stored at Darlington over the winter period, they were not used on the Tyne Tees service early in there lives. One I think gravitated to Morris Bros of Swansea.
Paul Fraser
There was a shot of this same vehicle in an issue of ‘Vintage Roadscene’ about two years ago. It was depicted outside Scarborough railway station, next to a board proclaiming ‘United afternoon coach tours leave here at 2.30 pm’. Standing in front of the coach is seen one Charlie Bullock, a long serving driver with United at Scarborough, and one of the town’s real characters. (For many years Charlie was the proud owner of ex-United 1940 Bristol K5G towing lorry FHN 923, which is now in the care of the preservation folk at Newton Aycliffe).
Brendan Smith
Another superb shot of a United coach in the Olive and Cream livery. One of these vehicles UC4 304GHN is currently under restoration with the Aycliffe & District Bus Preservation Society. I do believe that these 5 vehicles were used on holiday tours to Scotland and Devon when they were new.
Paul
01/01/12 – 07:11
Just a brief note to say that Charlie Bullock is still with us as of 31st December 2011 – !! I’m sure all bus preservationists will join me in wishing him a very Happy New Year.
Guy Stanbury
22/01/13 – 11:15
Sadly, Charlie Bullock died on 17th August 2012 aged 97. A link to an article in the Scarborough Evening News is here www.thescarboroughnews.co.uk/
John Darwent
22/01/13 – 12:29
Is it coincidence or providence that Charlie’s ride to eternity had gained a mournful looking grille by the time the Final Ride was taken…..?
David Oldfield
23/01/13 – 07:00
My partner and I were privileged to have attended Charlie’s funeral in Scarborough, and although it was sad to lose an old friend, the proceedings were far from being a sad affair. There was warmth and humour throughout the service, and the crematorium was absolutely packed – no mean feat for someone of 97. Charlie went in to the tune of ‘Sentimental Journey’, and we made our way out afterwards to ‘When the Saints Go Marching In’, just as he had planned. His coffin (which he’d had in storage for many years, ready as Charlie put it, for when he was “called up to Head Office!”) – was draped with a United destination blind and floral tribute. Charlie even managed to put in a ‘personal appearance’ partway through the proceedings. With the help of a pre-recorded CD, he thanked everyone for coming to his ‘event’, and told us that he was the advance party and that he would no doubt see us all again at some stage! His ‘Old Beauty’ FHN923 performed her duty as Charlie’s personal transport admirably, in the hallowed company of United Bristol L5G LHN860, Doncaster AEC Regal III MDT222, and East Yorkshire open-top AEC Routemaster ALM65B. I have never been to a funeral before where so many people came out with a smile on their face. A fitting tribute to Charlie, a busman through and through, with a lovely sense of fun right up to the end.
Brendan Smith
23/01/13 – 11:23
Brendan, how I wish that I’d had the honour to meet Charlie, who was obviously a wonderful and enchantingly “mischievous” character as well as being a dedicated busman. Just a slight deviation from this Bristol topic, but I too have the greatest admiration for the superb cream and olive green livery of the United coaches – dignity with boldness, not easy to achieve and sadly almost totally extinct today. My happiest memory of the livery is from my West Yorkshire conducting days on service 76 (Skipton – Tadcaster). Connections at important points were always specified on WYRCC running boards and my favourite was when we were due to leave Harrogate for Skipton at 4.00pm :- “Connection must be made with United car for Liverpool due at 3.57 pm.” The United “CAR” was always one of the nine magnificent Leyland Royal Tigers, in olive green and cream of course, and it was never late as far as I recall !!
Chris Youhill
24/01/13 – 07:13
You have a way with words Chris, and “enchantingly mischievous” is very apt. Your comment about the ‘Harrogate Connection’ is fascinating – that really was customer service. Today, in this age of competitive competitiveness, such a sensible thing would be totally unacceptable. The Competition Commission would be down on West Yorkshire and United like a ton of cylinder heads. (Note: why is there only one Competition Commission? Alright for them eh?). Harrogate was a still a colourful place for buses and coaches when my family moved there in 1966, and United provided vehicles in red and cream, cream and red, and cream and olive green. They operated two Lodekka FSF6Bs on the Ripon – Harrogate 126 route, and various LS and MW buses and coaches could also be seen at points throughout the day. Also calling at Harrogate Bus Station (which we very nearly lost thanks to Meddlesome Maggie) were the coaches of Northern General and North Western, and the fascinating blue buses of Samuel Ledgard. A lovely time to be a thirteen year old bus spotter.
Brendan Smith
24/01/13 – 11:06
United and the NGT Group had a number of shared routes and return tickets were valid on either companies buses, in addition to that, in areas where several routes merged and they were joined by Newcastle Corporation vehicles, in the event of a breakdown the conductor/driver could issue a slip and transfer passengers to any vehicle. Silly me, I forgot to mention one very important point, at the time buses were classified as Public Service Vehicles and were regulated by the area Traffic Commissioners.
Ronnie Hoye
25/01/13 – 06:39
As you rightly say Brendan, Harrogate Bus Station was a wonderful place in those days, and there was a marvellous “class distinction” measure in force. West Yorkshire buses on the main 53 service to Bradford via Otley left from a stand near the railway station end, while we of Ledgard’s on our hourly departure set out from a stand half way down the bus station under a sign declaring “Bradford (S.Ledgard)”- obviously to remind us that we were extremely lucky to be allowed within West Yorkshire’s Temple of Excellence. One other little gem concerning the 4.00pm service 76 to Skipton, on Fridays at least, was a duplicate to Burley in Wharfedale operated by a coach and driver hired from Wray’s of Summerbridge in the command of a West Yorkshire conductor.
Chris Youhill
26/01/13 – 06:32
Chris, your mention of Wray’s of Summerbridge (as it then was) reminded me that their coaches could often be seen on hire to West Yorkshire. Indeed they could frequently be seen resting contentedly next to WY’s Bristol/ECW machines on the forecourt of Harrogate’s Grove Park depot, especially in the summer months. Wray’s even had some Yeates-bodied coaches in their fleet (Riviera and Europa spring to mind), the flamboyant style of which contrasted markedly with the classic lines of WY’s LS and MW coaches of the period. Wray’s were taken over a few years ago by Eddie Brown of Helperby, and Wray’s attractive and distinctive livery was sadly phased out quite soon afterwards. Unfortunately, Eddie Brown’s livery is yet another variation of the bland ‘white coach’ scheme seen in many parts of the country, with odd bits of colour added to try and differentiate one operator’s vehicles from another. Eddie Brown’s coaches have swoops and swirls along the sides in maroon and orange, and it’s reasonably attractive, but to me it’s ‘just another white coach’, and lacks the ‘class’ of the Wray’s livery. Nearby Dodsworth’s Coaches of Boroughbridge show how it could be done, with their very distinctive and handsome livery of all over orange with a black roof. Simple, but stunning.
Brendan Smith
26/01/13 – 15:02
Copyright J.A.Charles
Thought that an up to date photo of one of this batch may be helpful. This was taken at a rally at Croft motor racing circuit last year.
Andrew Charles
27/01/13 – 07:53
Thank you for posting the photos Andrew. A fine looking coach indeed, further enhanced by that famous cream and olive green livery. The position of the rear number plate is interesting, and presumably this was specified by United. Usually on this type of coach it was located immediately below the rear windows, approximately where 304 GHN’s lovely scroll fleetname is. The polished front wheel nuts add the final touch – they are just as they would have been on delivery, and ‘very Bristol’.
United Automobile Services 1954 Bristol LS6B ECW C39F
Another LS6B coach belonging to United this coach instead of having roof windows had glass panels depicting the service that it ran. The first panel says “Tyne Tees” the second panel starts with a “T” is 6 or 7 letters long it could be “Thames” and the third panel I am sure says “Service”. When I took this shot much newer coaches would of been doing that run as this coach would of been about 12 years old at the time. This photo was taken at Whitby in the summer of 1966 the coach is on route to Newcastle, its starting point being Scarborough more than likely. For anybody who knows or more than likely remembers the place this photo was taken you are right there should be a very large street light just behind the coach, “I’m afraid it had to go as it ruined the shot”.
Full lists of Bristol and United codes can be seen here.
The lettering on this lovely LS6B did as you say state Tyne-Tees-Thames Service. Although most LS coaches were fitted with Gardner HLW engines, some operators did specify the Bristol LSW unit instead, including United. The LSW was basically a horizontal version of the AVW engine used in many K/L-types and LD Lodekkas. Although not quite matching the Gardners for longevity or fuel economy, the Bristol engines were quite smooth running units nonetheless. I seem to recall LS6B exhausts emitted a nice crisp bark too.
Brendan Smith
08/11/13 – 14:42
I travelled on the United service from Victoria to the North East 3/4 times a year throughout the fifties and early sixties. I well remember these coaches. They also had Tyne Tees and Thames printed in black on the upper part of the side windows together with towns en route. Overnight services had central blue night lights in the roof so passengers could sleep. I can remember one of the first changed routes journeys north so to use the M1. Does any model manufacturer past or present have an Bristol LS in the United TTT livery?
Harry
09/11/13 – 05:55
Harry, EFE made a very nice model of a United LS coach in Tyne Tees livery a few years ago – 1005 (formerly UC5): 305 GHN. Although the genuine coach was an LS6B, the model was based on EFE’s MW coach casting. This gave the body a slightly less curved rear profile than the LS would have had, but nonetheless evoked the spirit of these fine machines admirably.
United Automobile Services 1955 Bristol LS5G ECW B45F
Photographed at the Corner Cafe Scarborough is a bus version of the Bristol LS5G owned by United Automobile, there has been two coach versions on this site before click the Bristol LS link below to view them. United had large numbers of one man operated single deck vehicles as it had many country routes and a lot of countryside between the towns it serviced. Keeping costs down by one man operation and light vehicles like the LS using less diesel meant country routes could be maintained.
Lovely to see this excellent picture. United did indeed have many Bristol LS types on country routes before they gave way to the later MW. I have heard it said that wherever you were – from Berwick-on-Tweed all the way down to Bridlington – a United LS was certain to pull up at your bus stop, given time!
Nice also to see the Corner Cafe. It has been a favourite image on Scarborough postcards throughout the decades – nearly always with a United vehicle parked at the terminus nearby! Sadly, when I visited the resort last autumn, the cafe had finally been demolished to make way for a new development of flats. The end of an era indeed.
United Automobile Services 1950 Bristol K6B ECW H30/26R
Here we have a line up of three United Automobile buses in Scarborough bus station. the one in the centre is as the specification above having a Bristol AVW 8.1 litre six cylinder diesel engine. In 1965 all United double decker buses had the Bristol engine, 20 had been converted from Gardner 5LW engine I think they needed the power of the Bristol engine. The single decker on the left is a 1965 Bristol SUL4A registration CHN 3C fleet number S3 with an ECW B36F body. I think United only had five of these lightweight vehicles mainly used on lightly trafficked routes. There was two types of Bristol SU the SUS (Small Underfloor Short) and the SUL (Small Underfloor Long) both versions were powered by an Albion 4.1 litre, four cylinder diesel engine and had a 5 speed synchromesh gearbox The bus on the right or should I say half a bus is a 1956 Bristol LS5G registration 637 CHN fleet number U237 with an ECW B41F body. There is a much better shot of a United Bristol LSG here.
28/10/15 – 13:22
NHN906 was the last surviving Bristol K6B in the United fleet. There were half a dozen of them at Scarborough for many years for use on the town services there. After they were displaced by new FLFs in the mid-sixties, they moved north to Northumberland. BH1 &2 (NHN 901/2) went to Whitley Bay where they were mainly used on the Whitley Bay town service. BH3-6 (NHN 903-6) went to Ashington. When United renumbered their fleet into an all numerical system at the beginning of 1969, there were only two survivors, BH1 & 6 which became 51 & 52. NHN 901 probably never operated with it’s new number. It was still in service in December 1968, but a few days into the new year, I noted that it was parked out of use behind the depot at Whitley Bay. NHN906 at continued for a few more months at Ashington. I occasionally saw it in the 444 from Bedlington to Ashington via North Blyth. It also sometimes appeared as a substitute for an FLF on the Newcastle services. It appears to have been taken out of service in June 1969.
John Gibson
29/10/15 – 06:21
Small correction to the original text. The SU had a five speed constant mesh (not synchromesh) gearbox. Behind the apparent uniformity of vehicle types in the Tilling fleets of the time lay a difference between operators in the engine choice. Some would not countenance anything other than a Gardner in double deck and large saloon orders. Others were happy to accept the Bristol engine which was cheaper to buy and speedier in delivery. Gardners were highly sought after by many manufacturers, and output was not particularly high. In retrospect, it testifies to the ultra conservative iron grip that Hugh Gardner maintained upon the company that production methods barely altered for over 50 years from the introduction of the LW series in 1931. Given the apparent insatiable demand for the Patricroft products, Gardner rested on its laurels, and no real effort to increase output was properly addressed. Back then, the idea that Gardner would ultimately cease to exist was inconceivable.
United Automobile Services 1955 Bristol LS6B ECW DP39F
Waiting in Glasgow, exact location unknown, BUE2 is being prepared for departure on the service 14 (later 515) to Whitley Bay. The service ran once a day in winter, and twice a day in summer months. It was a long drawn out affair with a total running time of about 9 hours. A joint operation between SMT and United, vehicles from either end of the route would meet at Galashiels where a refreshment stop was taken, the crews would then swap vehicles and return to their own depot, the vehicles would carry on and return the following day. An Express service also operated via a shorter route, the running time on that was about 5 hours, and generally, the crews worked the whole route returning the same day.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye
29/05/14 – 07:5129/05/14 – 07:51
The location looks like Port Dundas Rd once the terminus for many long distance services to Glasgow.
Phil Blinkhorn
30/05/14 – 13:11
Is that and ECW bodied Daimler owned by Alexanders at the top left hand corner of the picture and an S.M.T. A.E.C Regent to the right of the picture?
Stephen Bloomfield
02/06/14 – 10:40
These were beautiful vehicles, good looking, great livery (an example here) and comfortable seats. They also looked good in later life in red livery. The only disappointment was that to me the sound of the Bristol engine never seemed right in an LS, the majority having Gardner engines, which sounded wonderful.
Don McKeown
21/08/20 – 05:32
I have just come across this photo of what by now was U302 downgraded to bus work but still smart and comfortable. The photo was taken in Ripon in July 1968, on a Saturday I think and probably a market day service. Does anyone know where the X99 originated and was it a Saturday only service?
Ian Wild
21/08/20 – 05:54
The X99 was the Middlesbrough to Leeds and Liverpool service. U302 in the summer of 1968 was allocated to Middlesbrough. Perhaps it was a duplicate. There looks to be a similar vehicle standing behind U 302 on the 128 which was the Ripon to Scarborough service, which has been mentioned elsewhere here. That may be either U313 or U315, which were both Ripon cars.
John Gibson
21/08/20 – 06:00
United Automobile Services was a joint operator in the “Tyne-Tees-Mersey” pool which included service X99 which ran from Middlesbrough to Leeds via Stockton, Northallerton, Thirsk, Ripon and Harrogate. In earlier years there had been through services continuing to Huddersfield, Oldham, Manchester, Eccles and Liverpool. It was latterly divided at Leeds although the appropriate journeys travelling via Eccles continued to run as service X99. Quite possibly since the photograph was taken on a Saturday the bus would more than likely have been on a duplicate working into Ripon. Despite being long distance services the pool services had numerous intermediate pick-up points and provided a local service over many sections of the overall journeys. The timetables and routes for the pool services (1932, 1950s, 1960s and 1970s) may be seen via this link: //www.ipernity.com/doc/
David Slater
21/08/20 – 06:06
I would suggest that this was a vehicle off the X99 Tyne/Tees – Mersey, Middlesbrough to Liverpool service. This was possibly a Duplicate from Leeds or Middlesbrough ending up at Ripon. There was however a 1955 journey from Middlesbrough (Daily) which terminated in Ripon at 2155, so it could be that. (2 hours not bad for an Express service, at best you could do that journey in one hour by car, no wonder the Bus/Coach industry lost passengers to the Motor Car.) I remember once when I was part timing for North Western/National Express, out of Manchester, having operated a Dup from Manchester to Leeds, being asked by the West Yorkshire RCC Inspector at Wellington Street, to carry on to Ripon with passengers, for there only, as the service car had burst. I suitably obliged. I can not remember if it suited the Conductor or not, but the WYRCC Inspectors at Wellington Street were a good bunch and it was hard to say no. I can find no reference to an X99 service in the UniteD timetable which covers Ripon area.
United Automobile Services 1959 Bristol MW6G ECW DP39F
These dual purpose vehicles were purchased for the North East to London route it had coach seats and maybe a bit more leg room but apart from that it was still just a bus. I think when I took this photo in 1966 they had been moved on to shorter routes and replaced with something more suited for such a long distance. Dual purpose and coaches had a different livery in the United fleet as can be seen, it was actually a moss green and cream doesn’t show well on this photo better one coming soon.
It was Olive Green and Cream.These MW vehicles were used on the Newcastle to London services being replaced by RELH coaches.They were then used on other express services such as Newcastle to Scarborough, Newcastle to Lowestoft/Great Yarmouth and Newcastle to Edinburgh/Glasgow.Some of these MWs were then repainted into the red/cream dual purpose colours and some even went to the all red with cream waistband bus livery in their latter days being used then on local bus services.
Paul
The Olive green and cream United express livery was one of the most dignified and pleasing I’ve ever enjoyed seeing. When I worked for West Yorkshire RCC we had a running board connection in Harrogate on service 76 from Tadcaster to Skipton – “connection must be made with the United car for Liverpool due from Newcastle at 3.57pm.” I can still remember with delight the sight of the beautiful ECW bodied Leyland Royal Tigers (United had nine of them) as they purred into the platform behind us – invariably spot on time.
United Automobile Services 1959 Bristol MW5G ECW B45F
This is the bus version of a 1959 Bristol MW as opposed to the dual purpose one 6 buses ago, there is quick link to it here. This bus version has a 5 cylinder Gardner engine where the DP version had a 6 cylinder engine probable because of the long routes it was used on. The bus version also seats six more people than the DP version so not as comfy but then the journeys are not as long. Coming up in the next few days is a 1965 version of the MW with a very nice radiator grill design.
Full lists of Bristol and United codes can be seen here.
One of the unsung heroes of the bus and coach world, the MW just got on with the job and did it splendidly and without much fuss. Whereas the Lodekka drew attention with its step-free lowheight layout, and the RE in bus and coach form stole the limelight with its sheer size and elegance, the MW always seemed like an unassuming, reliable workhorse plodding away in the background. They were quiet and comfortable vehicles to ride in, especially when fitted with coach seats, and their Gardner engines ensured reliability and excellent fuel economy. Who could forget seeing United’s versions parked en masse in front of Richmond’s fine castle. A fine sight and sound indeed.
Brendan Smith
I have very happy memories of countless journeys to Hull and Bridlington from Leeds in these fine vehicles of the West Yorkshire Road Car Co.Ltd. The routes , 44/45/46, were jointly operated with East Yorkshire and so one was guaranteed a treat no matter which operator’s steed was on duty at the particular time.
