Tag: West Yorkshire

Yorkshire Woollen District – Bristol K5G – OWT 204 – 154

Yorkshire Woollen District - Bristol K5G - OWT 204 - 154

Yorkshire Woollen District
1939
Bristol K5G
ECW H28/28R (1955)

Aliens Land In Dewsbury.

Yorkshire Woollen District experienced a severe shortage of vehicles during 1969 and consequently was obliged to acquire some most untypical vehicle types which no doubt caused much displeasure to both engineering and road staff. Seen here at Savile Town depot, Dewsbury in 1970 are a selection.

From the left.

WCY 892 (160) was one of seven AEC/PRV Bridgemasters (H43/29F) that had come from South Wales Transport, this one being new in 1961.

UHN 642 (166) and WHN 54 (169) were two of six Bristol KSW6B’s with ECW H32/28R bodies, that had been new to United Automobile in 1954/55.

6162 WJ (141) was one of seven Leyland PD2/30’s with Roe H33/26RD bodies that had been new to the Sheffield ‘C’ (British Railways owned) fleet in 1960. From the same source had also come two PD2/20’s with ECW bodies, three Atlanteans and two Burlingham-bodied Leopards.

OWT 204 (154) was one of four Bristol K5G’s with ECW highbridge bodies that had been new to York West Yorkshire in 1939, then rebuilt with new chassis frames and rebodied in 1955. There was also a pair of lowbridge K6B’s from Keighley West Yorkshire.

All those in the photo were withdrawn in 1970 (6162 WJ in 1972) and sold to North’s, the dealer, at Sherburn-in-Elmet only the Bridgemaster seeing further use, being exported to Canada for use initially by a restaurant in Toronto, then by Gray Tours of Winnipeg.

Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer

06/01/17 – 06:24

Hmm . . . varying shades of red! I’, assuming that Ks were placed in service in Tilling red, the Bridgemaster in SWT red, but the PD2 repainted into YWD red. I’ve seen a paint listing somewhere which refers to “BET red” and “BET crimson” as standard colours shared by BET companies: I’m sure YD used one of the two, and Hebble the other (and one of two was the same as Western Welsh) – I’ll have made a note somewhere, I’ll track it down.
It strikes me as odd that YWD went to the trouble of making “coach glasses” for the Bridgemaster and PD2, but not the UA Ks.

Philip Rushworth

06/01/17 – 10:51

Sorry to reveal my ignorance but what do you mean by “coach glasses”?

David Rawsthorn

06/01/17 – 10:52

I knew of the vehicle shortage at YWD but I’m surprised to find that such a variety of interesting vehicles were brought in to help. While I can understand the general displeasure among the work force, as an enthusiast driver I would have been over the moon at getting to know such vehicles.

Chris Youhill

06/01/17 – 10:53

Great photo John. Takes me back to when I started at YWD Head office at Savile Town Dewsbury in 1970. These buses made a welcome change to the MCW Regent Vs which seemed to be everywhere around Dewsbury. The Bridgemasters were christened Welsh Corgis.

J D Blackburn

07/01/17 – 06:44

David
Those glass panels with the operators names on below the rear windows of coaches, I couldn’t think of a better name for the glasses with “Yorkshire” in lieu of destination screens.

Philip Rushworth

08/01/17 – 06:21

Thanks.

David Rawsthorn

08/01/17 – 06:22

I guess the Ks, being considerably older, were considered to be “not long for this world”! I know beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but for me the ECW body for the K (especially the high bridge KSW version) was the nicest and best balanced half-cab double decker of all time. By contrast, I always thought the Bridgemaster was the ugliest (with apologies to those who love them!)

Stephen Ford

08/01/17 – 06:23

OWT 204 was actually the fifth ex York-West Yorkshire K5G that Yorkshire used. They started with OWT 196/7/201/5 from 1 May 1969 and numbered these 155/4/2/3 respectively. However, OWT 197 was returned to West Yorkshire (for disposal) at the end of May and replaced by OWT 204, the subject of the photo, which took on OWT 197’s fleet number of 154.
At this stage all six West Yorkshire vehicles (4 x K5Gs and 2 x K6Bs) were only on hire and carried a “West Yorkshire Road Car” legal ownership panel and an “On Hire to Yorkshire Woollen District” sticker. They also had “West Yorkshire” fleetnames (i.e. without Keighley- or York- prefixes) and full Tilling red and cream livery with black wings and wheels. This hire situation continued until 18 August 1969, when all six vehicles were sold to Yorkshire Woollen District.
In January 1970, OWT 196/201/4 had their wings and wheels painted red (ex black) and gained Yorkshire fleetnames, but remained in Tilling red and cream.
They were used mainly on YWD routes A1/2/3/4 (Thornhill-Dewsbury-Birstall), for which special short destination blinds were made for the front only; they carried no rear destination or route number blinds. They worked mainly at peak hours, but we were told at the time that they “…are extremely popular with the Yorkshire drivers, who appreciate their reliability and sturdiness. Indeed, they are practically the only double deckers at Dewsbury that do not have to be “booked off” for one fault or another!”

Trevor Leach

08/01/17 – 06:24

I have read before about the “severe vehicle shortage” in 1969 which may have been shared with others. Why was this? Do I remember that they had problems with inspections? In days of uniform fleets it is strange to read that these five “begged” buses had four different makes of engine- a Youhill delight- what was the rest of the fleet then? Leyland? At least I think West Riding- around then- replaced Wulfrunians with buses with various Gardner engines.

Joe

10/01/17 – 06:17

From memory, local newspapers referred to a shortage of spare parts.
In 1969 Yorkshire Woollen’s fleet included:
6 x circa 1950 Leyland PS2s rebodied as double-deckers by Roe in 1962-63
44 x AEC Regent Vs dating from 1958-61
9 x Leyland PD3A built 1962
14 x Albion Lowlander built 1964
22 x Daimler Fleetline built 1965-67
12 x Leyland Atlantean built 1967
Between 1959-62 Yorkshire Woollen purchased 43 AEC Reliance single-deckers, but many of these had been withdrawn by 1969.
YWD purchased 50 bus-bodied Leyland Leopards between 1962-65.
I well remember wishing to travel to school and finding that what had previously been a 70-seat Regent V-operated service was frequently a coach-seated AEC Reliance, either with 39-seat Weymann Fanfare bodywork, or ex-Maidstone & District examples with centre-entrance 37-seat Harrington coachwork.
I regret to say that things got so bad with being unable to even board a vehicle – and consequently being late for school – I finally gave up on YWD and started walking to school.

Paul H

10/01/17 – 16:49

I was aware that Hebble was experiencing severe problems with its fleet around this time (1970) but did not realise YWD shared the same problems.
The former Sheffield buses came to YWD as a result of NBC taking over the former railway-owned C fleet and distributing them to its subsidiaries, but no doubt they helped with the vehicle shortage.

Geoff Kerr

03/03/17 – 10:23

I left Dewsbury in 1968, but I don’t think that the situation was much better for 2 or 3 years before this. I well remember 41 seater Reliance/Harringtons being used on the A group of services to Thornhill where the allocation was a 70 seat Regent V every 5 minutes, with queues from the Market stop almost to the end of the road, and no chance of boarding the bus opposite the Bus Station. I am not sure that the cause was the same as 1969 but the effect certainly was. As an 18 year old I had a Saturday afternoon job with a Market Trader (I had to go to school Saturday morning), and I always walked to the Bus Station and caught one of the other services (Whitley, Grange Moor or Thornhill Edge) which took me close to home – and they were always full with frustrated A service passengers.

Malcolm Hirst

22/11/18 – 07:02

So bad was the state of the fleet in the late sixties that the road staff struck over the state of the vehicles one spokesman for the staff cited the PS rebuilds as the worst offenders Despite this they lasted well into the NBC era.

Chris Hough

24/11/18 – 06:15

The rebuilt PS2s also caused a lightening strike during the seventies. This was due to heaters not working. Sounds quite radical but it was probably the accumulation of vehicles constantly being “logged off” for this problem. I was working at Dewsbury head office at the time and remember having to walk home cursing everything.

John Blackburn

28/08/20 – 06:46

Was lucky enough to work for YWD in 1970 and doubly lucky to have missed driving a K5G up any hill in the area. 6 cylinder Gardner engined half cabs were bad enough but the thought of a 5 cylinder one only makes you think of trips you could miss with late running. Always found the ex Sheffield Leylands being a pleasure to dd felt quite tight vehicles and easy to drive. Really enjoyed the Corgi Bridgemasters unlike many drivers. Being tall the gear stick being at an angle was far easy to use in comparison to the Regent V where second gear was hard to engage due to being at the back of the bulkhead and a knuckle scraper.

Ian Gardner

15/10/22 – 06:04

I remember seeing one of the ex-Sheffield Titans freshly repainted into YWD red. Unfortunately the paint was rather thin and the Sheffield blue bands were still visible under it!

Glen Simpson

West Yorkshire – Bristol JO5G – BWT 765 – 970


Copyright Roy Marshall

West Yorkshire Road Car Company
1937
Bristol JO5G
ECW B32F

West Yorkshire Bristol JO5G 970 with Eastern Coach Works (ECW) B32F body built in 1937 is also seen at Bradford Chester Street Bus Station about 1950. It would appear to being used as a temporary crew rest room after a duty on a service from Ilkley. This bus was was one of a further twenty eight “Js” rebuilt by ECW with a roller blind indicator box to replace the “bible” indicator. Bristol JO5G 970 was part of a large fleet of over one hundred bought between 1935 and 1937 and the “Js” could be seen operating over a wide area of the West Yorkshire Company network. 970 was withdrawn from service at the end of September 1954 and the last in the fleet JO5G 996 went out of service in May 1955.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Richard Fieldhouse

06/03/11 – 09:19

Another wonderful picture of particular nostalgia for me, as I lived in Ilkley in those days, travelled often on service 63, and when I joined West Yorkshire in 1960 worked on the route frequently. Although the installation of the postwar pattern full size roller destination boxes was an obvious improvement for all concerned, the fitment always seemed to me to be a little excessive in height and took something away from the beautiful classic lines of these vehicles. I had completely forgotten that the intermediate display was as comprehensive as shown in the picture – later editions settled for “Manningham Lane, Shipley, White Cross” and “Burley in Wharfedale” was certainly a bonus. West Yorkshire was one of those companies who liked to stick to three digit fleet numbers, which brought about an interesting point with this batch : In the 1937 delivery BWT 794 became 999, thereby “bursting the thousand”, and BWT 795 became 101.

Chris Youhill

06/03/11 – 11:55

Absolutely wonderful photograph which again takes me back further than I would care to admit!
WYRC allocated fleet numbers on a “hundred” block basis, service bus single deckers going on to a new “100” series when the 900 block was exhausted. I well remember riding on these “J”s , particularly from Bingley to Dick Hudsons, and it was these buses which evoked those memories of internal transfers which were discussed some weeks ago. “Please tender exact fare and state destination” etc!
I agree with Chris that the classic lines of the ECW body were somewhat spoiled by the roller blind conversion, which always seemed a bit “spasmodic” as to why some were and some were not converted.
I remember riding on the last “J” in service, in 1955, on an enthusiast tour from Bradford to York, where we also sampled the delights of the 3 “ADG”s, a story to be told elsewhere.
A delightful photograph Richard, and what a contrast between these later BWT registered J types and their earlier squarer ECOC bodied elder cousins with YG, AWW and AWX registrations!
A fleet with very strong Tilling influences, and yet how strange that the body layout, if not style, was typical of BET practice, with the front porch style door. Superb rugged, reliable buses which just oozed atmosphere and character!

John Whitaker

11/03/11 – 07:44

I’ve never driven a Bristol J or G, but K (in service) and L (in preservation) are old friends. A letter in Buses Illustrated about 40 years ago (I’m afraid I’ve forgotten the exact wording) suggested that–unlike the London RT driver–the poor provincial Bristol driver had to wrestle with heavy, awkward controls. Nothing could be further from the truth. Steering is light and dead positive, brakes are progressive and trustworthy, the clutch allows a nice smooth takeup, the gearbox is less demanding than some and has sensible ratios and the cab is comfortable: in short, an ideal driver’s bus. Or was I always lucky enough to get the good ‘uns?
Lovely evocative photograph! Thanks.

Ian Thompson

11/03/11 – 11:13

I agree with you fully Ian on every point there, and in particular concerning the brakes – I always found Bristol brakes to be completely predictable and reliable at all times. In my own view, and I appreciate that every driver has his/her favoured model, the Bristols of that era shared friendly top place with the Leyland PS1/PD1 for a pleasant and comfortable driving experience and absolutely no hidden vices.

Chris Youhill

11/03/11 – 17:51

I think it is what the onlooker sees (or thinks he sees). The pre-selector gearbox, especially on AEC Regents, always looked and sounded quick, smooth and light to operate. Manual gear change (before synchromesh) required the pause to let revs die down when changing up, or the blip on the accelerator to speed them up when changing down. So it was a slower change, accompanied by mechanical sounds that gave the impression of was hard and heavy work. Derby’s Fodens and Bartons’ Utility Guy Arabs certainly always looked and sounded as though they were pigs to drive – but there again I may be quite wrong.

Stephen Ford

12/03/11 – 07:11

Stephen, the Fodens were not at all hard to drive in terms of physical effort, but the gearboxes required spot on precision and were very unforgiving. Any miss-match of road speed and engine revs produced a high pitched screech rather akin to applying a piece of metal to a power saw and was most embarrassing. The Guy Arabs (early marques including the utilities) had easily manageable gearboxes, once you remembered that some were “back to front” in that first and second were nearest to you, and third and fourth were against the engine panel. Those Arabs did though have very heavy clutches and much effort was also needed to press the accelerator hard enough once the governors engaged. Despite these observations though I don’t think either model could fairly be described as “a pig to drive” – provided you were interested in the job they were rewarding and very tough vehicles, and I’d just love an hour on each of them right now.
My favourite bus at Samuel Ledgard’s Otley Depot was the Roe rebodied utility Guy Arab JUA 763, with “back to front” gearbox – I used to take it out at every opportunity. The placid little garage man who allocated the buses was always aware that he might have it on his hands to the last each morning as the undedicated brethren shunned it. His face would light up with relief when I appeared and, pencil poised, who would enquire “763 kid ??” and with a happy smile delete the number on his little list. My next task was then to try and pacify with cigs, sweets or teas the disgruntled conductors who would mutter “narrow gangways and only one bell upstairs.”

Chris Youhill

West Yorkshire – Bristol JO5G – AWW 165 – 925


Photograph by “unknown” – if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

West Yorkshire Road Car Company
1936
Bristol JO5G
ECOC B32F

Bristol JO5G 925 is seen operating on a local service in Harrogate about 1950. This bus was one of sixty built by the Eastern Counties Omnibus Company in 1935/36 and is of the square back style. The previous posting of West Yorkshire JO5G 970 shows the round back style body of the 1937 batch. 925 was in service up to August 1952 and all the square back J types had gone by the end of October 1952.
Harrogate was also the headquarters for the West Yorkshire Road Car Company and mecca for the bus enthusiast. It always seemed to me to be a place of bus contrasts with the oldest in the fleet usually on the town local services and the newest buses generally operating on the prestigious 36 Leeds to Ripon service. Perhaps this was West Yorkshire trying to impress their United cousins at Ripon.
I made many visits to Harrogate in the fifties using the WY Skipton to Harrogate 76 service from Burley-in-Wharfedale and well remember my first sighting of the prototype Bristol Lodekka 822 (DX1) as well as the pre-production Lodekka with an open platform and later numbered DX2. Other strange buses to seen in Harrogate were the Morris/Beadles 618/619 (SM1/SM2) on town local services but my favourites were the many Bristol JO5Gs to be seen on various routes. These were very exciting days for a young bus enthusiast and never to be forgotten.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Richard Fieldhouse

24/04/11 – 15:04

The photo of 925 is nostalgic beyond belief for me as I so well remember these earlier “J”s in Bradford’s Chester Street Bus Station when I was a boy. They were obviously older buses than the “rounder” BWT J types and the following L types with similar bodies. There was always one parked (in my memory anyway!) on the little adjacent piece of land on the right as one exited the bus station, and it always seemed to have the “Have you Macleaned your teeth today” advert on the back. Other memories of these wonderful machines were on trips to Baildon, and to Dick Hudsons on the Bingley to Eldwick service. Oh to be able to ride on one again! They were amongst the most characterful and attractive buses of all time. Wonderfully efficient buses too, from an operational viewpoint.
Thank you to Richard for this superb memory jogger.
It may be of interest to other enthusiasts to know that I am currently preparing a readable WY fleet list from info. taken from various publications Hopefully, this will be included in the fleet list section on this website.

John Whitaker

24/04/11 – 15:06

My sentiments exactly Richard. From 1941 – 1947 I travelled to and from Ben Rhydding School on the Bristol Js, prewar Ls, Dennis Aces and Lancets.
The two “square backed” ones allocated to Ilkley at the time were 946/7 AWX 798/9 and I loved them. Later, when I was a conductor at Ilkley from 1960 my favourite route was the 76 Skipton – Tadcaster. It was a five hour round trip (wonderful) and took five “cars” to operate it – it was shared by Harrogate, Ilkley, Skipton and Wetherby depots (and by GRASSINGTON who used the Skipton depot “car” for one round trip.) I too loved the atmosphere of Harrogate and you always had the feeling that the Company’s excellence was concentrated there – indeed anyone who had to go there on a disciplinary charge (as opposed to local depot action) knew full well that they might come back via the Labour Exchange. If you were travelling from Burley in 1960/1 I may well have issued you with a ticket or two !!

Chris Youhill

West Yorkshire – Bristol GO5G – YG 8986 – 306


Copyright Roy Marshall

West Yorkshire Road Car Company
1935
Bristol GO5G
Eastern Counties L53R

West Yorkshire Bristol GO5G 306 with Eastern Counties L53R body built in 1935 is seen at Bradford Chester Street Bus Station about 1950. It is ready to depart to Baildon via Canal Road and this information is clearly displayed on its “bible” indicator. For its return journey, the conductor or driver would release the side clips on the “bible” to enable the horizontal flap to be turned to show “Bradford.” The intermediate destination points in reverse order would also be revealed on the hidden “page” after which the “bible” was then re-clipped.
No doubt the crews welcomed the adoption by West Yorkshire of roller indicator blinds from 1944 onwards, though the operating handles were still outside and involved a clamber over a hot radiator but there was no more awkward lifting of a heavy “bible” metal sheet arrangement. I wonder what injuries occurred and whether there were any compensation claims with handling of the “bible” indicator metal sheets.
306 was withdrawn from service at the end of November 1950 but the “bible” indicators remained in use with West Yorkshire I believe in 1958 with the demise of the last pre-war Bristol L5Gs.
Can anybody confirm the date of the last pre-war L5Gs? I have only West Yorkshire fleet lists to 1955.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Richard Fieldhouse

27/02/11 – 08:39

Thank you Richard for sharing with us this wonderfully composed and evocative picture. I have departed from that very spot countless times when I worked for West Yorkshire at Ilkley Depot. We operated services 63/68 to Ilkley and Ben Rhydding via Manningham Lane or Canal Road, and had just one weekday trip to Baildon – out via route 59 and Baildon Road and return via route 61 and Baildon Green. I never had to use the incredible and ludicrous “bible” indicators and, quite rightly, they would never have been permitted in today’s Health and Safety climate – this legislation is often sneered at, and can be “over the top” on occasion but it was certainly sorely needed in those days. At a quick glance it would appear that the last prewar L5Gs were indeed withdrawn in September 1958. Of interest is the “Tilling Group” swivel radiator filler cap, retro fitted to most vehicles in place of the original flat screw down pattern. Thanks once again for a particularly splendid picture.

Chris Youhill

27/02/11 – 11:19

I know I am susceptible to nostalgia, buses being no exception, but this photo has it all for me! As a child, I remember the shape of the ECOC “G” bodies so well, as they contrasted vividly with the post war fleet. They lasted until 1952, as they had provided cover for the company’s “K” type rebodying programme.
I can see them now, hurtling down Thornton Road from Denholm, leaving clouds of smoke in their wake.
What a place Chester Street was for a young enthusiast. Day trips to Baildon and Ilkley on such delights as 306, and their “J” cousins, and stopping off at Harry Ramsdens on the way back. Most of all, awareness of contrasting shape variations amongst the WY fleet. There was that green hut, full of stacks of spare bible indicators, and, as you exited the bus station, at the little parking area to the right, bus backs of differing profiles would persuade you of the delights of BOVRIL, or else pose the question, “Have you McLeaned your teeth today”?
Wonderful memories of a superb fleet in its heyday!
Can it be 60 years since the passing of these fine vehicles?
Thanks to Richard for this post…. Any more WYRC Co. enthusiasts out there?

John Whitaker

27/02/11 – 11:25

Yes, a lovely picture with much nostalgic value. I didn’t realise that ‘bible’ indicators were still in use as late as 1958 – they lasted until 1955 in York, where I never heard them referred to by any of the older staff as anything other than ‘flap boards’. West Yorkshire must have been very fond of them because they actually converted some of the vehicles they inherited from York Corporation to bibles from blinds.
The picture indicates, and I assume from Richard’s description, that the hinge was horizontal and that the flap was raised or lowered. That’s how I remember them, but I have seen photos, (pre-war), clearly showing a vertical hinge where the flap was turned like a page in a book. Can anyone throw any light on this?
In addition to being heavy and awkward, a problem with ‘bible’ indicators arose when the vehicle operated on more than one route. It would then be necessary to carry another board, either under the staircase or, on a single-decker, lodged between the bonnet and nearside mudguard. York’s Circle route, with three different destinations, would require a change of board every hour; some photographs suggest an additional slip board, just showing the change in intermediate route points, but I really can’t be sure about that; however the problem was solved, it would have been a tiresome bind for the crews, no doubt.
Thank you again, Richard, for this great picture.

Roy Burke

27/02/11 – 16:10

A question for Chris, then…
How did you get a 5G like this one up Browgate into Baildon? With great difficulty?
I remember the ‘flap boards”on York buses: they gave the York fleet a wonderfully old-fashioned & “foreign” look that went with the rest of the place- and the white boards went with the white “lavatory brick” so often seen in York (sorry- “Yark”)!

Joe

27/02/11 – 20:03

Roy you are quite right – although in the minority there were versions of these boards where the hinge was vertical and the pages turned “book fashion” – I remember them well and they were around after the War also. Additionally there were other lightweight boards with only one narrow line carrying the ultimate destination in black and the route number in red. They were shaped like a letter “H”, with slender legs at either side and the narrow route line midway between bottom and top – these must have been far easier to “hoist aloft” than the full size multi-leaf monstrosities.
Joe, you’ll have the Gardner legal team after you!! Slow steady progress in low gears was essential of course, but the big hearted Gardners would go anywhere you know – however Browgate did admittedly often demand first gear. I have a wonderful piece of video which I took on an enthusiasts’ outing on preserved KDG 26. Knowing what was to come I positioned myself on the nearside front seat and the superb and highly competent driver chose just the right moment to execute a masterly change into first gear without the slightest jerk or click. I often wonder to this day how the GO5Gs and similar models managed to achieve Leeds to Harrogate in virtually the same running time as the present day despite having to tackle the ascent to Moortown, Harewood Bank and Almsford Bank and so forth.

Chris Youhill

28/02/11 – 06:45

Eastern Counties were also users of bible indicators although whether they lasted into the fifties I couldn’t say.
Lancs United had their own variant on the bible this was the slot in stencil which was a metal stencil which was back lit. The boards were dropped into the indicator box by the conductor. On double deckers the boards were kept under the stairs and would occasionally fall over with a great clatter.
Preserved LUT Leyland Tiger 114 CTF 423 a 1938 TS7 with Roe bodywork has had the feature restored and can be seen in its restored glory at this link.

Chris Hough

02/03/11

Strange how Eastern Counties produced a rather nice five bay body on this and then changed to a six bay design on later construction, as on the North Western K5G’s

Chris Barker

02/03/11

In 1934 Keighley-West Yorkshire took delivery of two Bristol G-types – K111/2 (YG 5733/4) – which were the first Bristols to be fitted with Gardner’s new 5LW diesel engine. Previous G-types had been powered by Bristol’s own design of 6-cylinder petrol engine, and indeed the chassis of K111/2 were originally to have been powered by this unit. However they were modified to take the Gardner engines during construction at Bristol, and were subsequently given chassis numbers GO5G.1 and GO5G.2, denoting G-type, Oil engine, 5-cylinder, Gardner. The vehicles were of further historic interest as they were West Yorkshire’s first Bristols and also the first Bristols to be fitted with lowbridge bodywork (in this case 52-seaters by Brush).
Further GO5Gs were delivered to WY in 1935 (including the imposingly handsome 306 in the photo), these as mentioned having ECOC bodywork – the forerunners of what would become Eastern Coach Works. Thus started WY’s long and happy relationship with the hallowed trinity of Bristol chassis, Gardner engine and ECW bodywork that lasted into the ‘Bristol’ Olympian era – only thwarted when Leyland short-sightedly closed the Bristol factory in 1983.
Regarding Joe’s comment on the progress of 5Gs up into Baildon, I well remember a WY fitter commenting that they might have been plodders but they were unbelievably reliable and very economical. His quote was that “they might be slow but they could pull”t town hall down on a pint o’ diesel!” He may have had a point!

Brendan Smith

03/03/11 – 08:39

I can certainly vouch for Brendan`s comment about the pulling power of WYRC 5LW engined buses. I well remember hearing each cylinder in its separate firing as a G mounted Baildon Brow. They could have gone up a house side without stalling! I have similar memories of 5LW West Yorkshire buses on Garrowby, and Hollins Hills!
The AWW batch of 1935 was less common in Bradford, but their reversion to a 6 bay layout was more a return to norm, with the 5 bay batch being very much an exception in ECOC output, a position which continued for the rest of Lowestoft’s pre war production. Strangely enough, photographs of the AWW batch seem to be difficult to find.

John Whitaker

12/04/11 – 05:00

Referring to Chris Hough’s comments dated 28/02/2011, from 1945 to 1950/1 we used to have our annual holiday at Lowestoft and we stayed at a house at the back of the town. The road was part of the Eastern Counties route to Oulton Broad and my recollection is the buses had “Bible Board” indicators. They were not as elaborate as the one in the photo but had a pair of what looked like standard side lights to illuminate the boards in the dark. So it seems they did last until then. Incidentally, the Eastern Counties coachworks were just down the road from the boarding house and, periodically, chassis/engine units were delivered to the works from the manufacturer and they were just that, just a chassis, engine, transmission and wheels (no mudguards). They were driven to the works by a man sat upon a box tied to the chassis and wrapped in multiple overcoats and scarves even in the height of summer! I assume they wore goggles because there was no protection of any sort and it must have been grim in rainy or winter weather. The Health and Safety people would have a major fit if that happened today

Phil Jones

19/04/11 – 19:14

Several sources quote West Yorkshire, and Eastern Counties as being the only users of the so called “bible” indicator. There were detail differences between the “bibles” of the 2 operators, principally with regard to the illuminating “side lights” as used by ECOC. Of all the (superb) Tilling Group (or Ex Tilling after 1948) companies, ECOC was, perhaps the most typical. Flat terrain enabled the extensive use of 4LW as well as Gardner “5”s, and vehicle life was maximised. All in all, it was a fascinating fleet, and one which I, as a West Yorkshire fan, would love to read more about!

John Whitaker

11/03/12 – 07:54

The Ipswich Transport Museum has 4 (unrestored) ECOC/ ECW bodied saloons all ex ECOC. (1 x ADC, 1 x TS B9A, 1 x L5G, 1 x Dennis Ace) A collection of Ipswich area ‘tin bibles’ is on display in the museum………

Eric M

11/03/12 – 09:00

Nearly a year later I have just read Phil J’s memories of the bare chassis arriving at ECW from Bristol Commercial Vehicles. Seeing those brave men drive off from the Works in a convoy of 5/6 at a time was a regular sight when I was young and riding my three wheeler bike to wait by the Works entrance to see them set off.
Exactly as Phil says, there was no protection of any kind except a canvas sheet in front of the pedals and that bare box to sit on..gosh it must have been horrible to travel so far..about 160/170 miles on A/B roads back then and on a writhing, floppy chassis with springs set up to take the body weight. They did indeed wear goggles and most wore “Herbert Johnson” motorcycle crash helmets and a scarf over the mouth to combat flies.
On a cold Winter’s day it must have been absolute misery for them. Those big overcoats were always a golden fawn colour..until the front got plastered in dirt and oil when they became “two tone” in a rather unusual way!

Richard Leaman

York – West Yorkshire – Bristol GO5G – AWW 27 – Y 327


Copyright Keith A Jenkinson

York – West Yorkshire
1935
Bristol GO5G
ECOC H58R

This picture was taken at York Station in 1937, and shows the vehicle, in its original livery, on the ‘Circle’ route – 1/8, Tang Hall – Beckfield Lane – Burton Stone Lane. The vertical line in the middle of the ‘bible’ indicator clearly suggests that the flap would have been turned over like the page in a book rather than being raised or lowered. However, the entire ‘bible’ would have needed to be changed some 15 or 16 times a day on this service – something of a chore for the crews.
To my shame, I have to say that, despite some of them being in service until 1952, I have no personal recollection of the Y-WY GO5Gs; the 1939 K5Gs, (and the 1938 K5Gs, after rebodying), were regularly used on routes with which I was very familiar and I knew those buses well, but I just don’t remember the GO5Gs. My only excuse is that Y-WY introduced Bristol K6Bs on the circle route – maybe in part because they had blinds – by the time I was about six years old, so the GO5G’s must have been used elsewhere in the system, (e.g. taking John Whitaker to Leeds!).
Behind Y327 is Y413, an ex-West Yorkshire lowbridge Leyland TD1; opposite is Y329, another GO5G.
My thanks to Keith A Jenkinson for his kind permission to use the picture.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roy Burke

09/05/11 – 07:57

There is something about the character of Bristol buses…old ones anyway. Business like, efficient, and thoroughly economic, and absolutely oozing with character. This photograph just sums it up for me. My Bradford based memories are of the lowbridge variety, so it was always a pleasure for me when, as a child, we went to, or through York, as the highbridge version was a rare treat.
Thanks for the memory Roy!

John Whitaker

West Yorkshire – Bristol LS5G – MWY 226 – EUG 15

West Yorkshire - Bristol LS5G - MWY 226 - EUG 15

West Yorkshire Road Car Co
1954
Bristol LS5G
ECW DP41F

Quite what this Harrogate based West Yorkshire LS5G was doing in Waterhouse Street, Halifax, in the summer of 1965 I am unsure, but it seems to be a curious choice of vehicle if it was on private hire duty. No doubt our Halifax experts will come up with a suggestion. MWY 226 was delivered to West Yorkshire’s Harrogate depot in July 1954 as a dual purpose vehicle and it then carried the fleet number EUG 15 (Express Underfloor Gardner). In March 1959 its role was downgraded to that of a bus with the new fleet number SUG 15 (Single deck Underfloor Gardner) in which guise, a trifle battered, it is seen here. It was still based at Harrogate when finally withdrawn in October 1968 thereafter passing into the hands of dealers.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

18/10/19 – 05:24

Although West Yorkshire‘s LS5Gs were renumbered from EUG to SUG, and repainted in the livery shown, they retained their dual purpose seats until some time in the sixties, so would have been suitable for a private hire job, especially if it was a summer Saturday.
Many years ago Crosville charged a lower rate for private hires if a dual purpose vehicle was used rather than a coach. Perhaps West Yorkshire had a similar scheme?

Don McKeown

18/10/19 – 05:25

West Yorkshire never bought any new LS pure service buses, but they did eventually re-seat many of the dual-purpose vehicles with bus seats. Sixty-eight were received as LS5G’s with ECW DP41F bodies and they came in five batches from 1953 to 1958. All of them had no rear indicators and the front indicators were always of two side-by-side windows. Each of the five batches had slight body variations and this along with West Yorkshire’s “normal” policy of declassifying/ re-seating/ livery changes gave a visually mixed and varied picture.

Stuart Emmett

20/10/19 – 06:39

I think it made economic sense to buy saloons in DP form then as they became older to reseat and down grade them to buses. Although I would love to know where all the bus seats came from to facilitate this, presumably from older, withdrawn stock.
A common nick name for the “SUG”s was “SLUGS” presumably due to the limited power produced by their five pot Gardners.

Mr Anon

21/10/19 – 06:07

ECW did some of the bus seat conversions Mr. Anon = a long way to/back from Lowestoft.

Stuart Emmett

28/10/19 – 06:57

Some fascinating memories, and how good it is to see the stalwarts getting some recognition. They were put to work on anything going. I used to work as a junior traffic clerk, latterly at Low Harrogate in the mid-60s, which was where tours and private hires were dealt with. There was no discount for using DPs instead of coaches. All quotes for hires were charged at the same mileage rate and the whole fleet for the allocation to Harrogate was particularly smart because it was Head Office. You should have seen the things which were hired out when the film “Sound of Music” was showing in Leeds! We were desperately short of vehicles and reckoned we could have hired out a tow truck. Private hire and tours were based in Montpelier Parade, Harrogate, which, if I remember correctly, had been completely refurbished some time around 1964.

LWR 431

There was one LS which stood out from the rest and was a product of West Yorkshire’s involvement with Cave-Brown-Cave. It seemed to work OK, but I remember one journey from Bradford to Harrogate on a dreeky damp day when this SUG had for some reason been put on the 53 service (probably working its way back to the depot it always worked from). It dripped and dribbled merrily down the inside of the windscreen.

David Rhodes

29/10/19 – 05:35

LWR 431 entered service in 1953 as EUG1 with a DP41F body and was delivered in the normal “express” livery of red with cream relief and this included the windscreen.
Fitted with Cave Brown Cave heating in late 1954 or early 1955 or early 1957 (and also was reported as 1/1965!!!) but this was most likely to have been concurrent with being reseated in 1957 as SUG1. The CBC system was placed in the destination box compartment, so the destination box was moved to be below the windscreen. First was a very small box, then was, as seen, in the pix from David.
Reseated as SUG1 by ECW as B45F in early 1957 and with no cream on the front windscreen.
Renumbered SMG1 in April 1962 when fitted for OMO.
Garaged at Pateley Bridge depot from 1956 to 1968 for the routes into Harrogate, it also regularly operated in the early 1960’s one return journey on route 51 to/from Bradford that left Harrogate at 0820 hours.
Withdrawn in July 1969 and then to North dealers in November 1969.

Stuart Emmett

West Yorkshire – Bristol MW6G – AWU 466B – 1146

 
Copyright Brendan Smith

West Yorkshire Road Car Company
1964
Bristol MW6G
ECW DP41F

Originally numbered SMG38, this vehicle became 1146 in West Yorkshire’s 1971 renumbering programme. It was one of twenty-six MW6G buses delivered to WY in 1963/64 – these being the first new single-decker WY buses for some time. For quite a few years previously, the Company had been able to cascade its mid-life dual-purpose vehicles for stage carriage use – repainting them red and cream in the process. The MW6G buses were originally delivered as B45F, but in 1971, SMG33-38 were reseated with high-backed seats from withdrawn LS dual-purpose vehicles. Unusually, the reseated batch retained bus livery, rather than receiving WY’s then dual-purpose/express livery of cream with a red band. As can be seen, ‘T-type’ destination indicators were fitted at the front, but no displays were fitted at the rear. The vehicles sported full-depth rear windows in their nicely rounded domes. They were quiet and comfortable buses to ride in, whether coach or bus seated, not to mention being very reliable and economical workhorses.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Brendan Smith

08/09/12 – 07:45

There are so many West Yorkshire experts who visit this site that one needs to be very careful about one’s facts. Someone may know otherwise, but my recollection is that WY fitted high back seats as a matter of course in their early MWs, designated SUGs. I remember them well on route 43, Leeds to Scarborough, always in standard livery. ‘SUG’ was explained to me in conductors’ training school as ‘Single, Underslung Gardner’. ‘SMG’ – ‘Single, Maximum Capacity Gardner’ – came later, I thought, as the company started to fit bus seats. Originally, SUGs had destination indicators made up of the two lower sections of ECW’s then standard three-part screens. The change to ‘T-type’ screens embraced all stage carriage vehicles, in the mid-1960’s. It’s a pity that the screen in this picture is sloppy; even if the screen didn’t have the right destination, (which could occasionally happen), the driver could, I think, have made sure the route number was displayed clearly.

Roy Burke

08/09/12 – 07:46

I agree entirely with Brendan about such vehicles being quiet and comfortable to travel in. I had many rides on those of Midland General which were all of the 6G type and always found them so. I’ve never had any experience of the MW5G, I suspect the ride may have been rather different.
David O remarks elsewhere about the popularity of the Guy Arab UF/LUF for coaching work. I too, never had any experience of these but I’ve always imagined that there couldn’t have been much difference between them and the MW.

Chris Barker

09/09/12 – 08:02

West Yorkshire vehicles were regular visitors to Blackpool on the “Joint Services” pool and also to Morecambe – alias British West Bradford – on the X88 service from Leeds. We could and did get anything that was available.
The “class” letters seem to have gone from most of the former Tilling group fleets at about the same time, though the Crosville arrangement was adopted by Potteries.
A pleasant enough view, but the indicator display would be of no use at all to a stranger. Thanks for sharing, Brendan.

Pete Davies

09/09/12 – 08:02

West Riding were a somewhat surprising recipient of West Yorkshire 1125 825 BWY which was new to West Yorkshire in 1963 as SMG17 in 1974. It lasted with West Riding until 1975 when it was scrapped.

Chris Hough

09/09/12 – 08:04

You are indeed right Roy, that West Yorkshire’s earlier deliveries of MWs (MW5Gs) with bus outline bodywork were fitted with high-backed coach seats. They were classed ‘EUG’ when new, denoting Express Underfloor Gardner, as were the earlier batches of LS5Gs, also with bus shells and coach seats. In later life many were demoted to ‘SUG’ status, for use mainly on stage-carriage work, gaining more red to their livery, but retaining coach seats. They would no doubt have been comfortable machines to ride in on the Leeds to Scarborough run, but many of us did wonder why WY continued to specify 5-pot rather than 6-pot Gardner engines for it’s longer-distance vehicles. It must have taken an age to reach Scarborough, Blackpool or Middlesbrough from the heart of the West Riding. (Could that be the reason for fitting half a dozen of the more powerful MW6G buses with 41 high-backed seats later on?). Some of the SUGs were fitted out for “one man” operation in later life, and received 45 bus seats in the process. They were re-classified SMG at the same time, the ‘M’ as Roy says, denoting Maximum seating capacity, and described as such in Ian Allan’s BBF No9. I too have heard this quoted by West Yorkshire staff, but have heard other staff say that ‘M’ meant the bus was suitable for one Man operation. Both descriptions appeared to be very relevant to the buses concerned, but as a skinny apprentice at the time, I did not wish to provoke an argument with either party, and came to the conclusion that maybe they were both right!

Brendan Smith

09/09/12 – 08:03

Where was this picture taken Brendan? Judging by the route number, could it have been York, Harrogate or possibly Keighley? As we’ve seen on other postings, it was not uncommon to have to ride many miles on express services in bus seats, but to have this DP for a local suburban estate run must have been delightful!

Paul Haywood

10/09/12 – 06:56

Paul and Brendan – my trusty 1960 fare table book (seriously speaking one of my most treasured possessions) may hold the answer to this query. At least in 1960 there was no service 9A in Harrogate or Keighley, but in York services 9/9A ran between Clifton and Tang Hall Lane. Our lovely meerkat friend from TV would no doubt click his teeth and remark “seeemples.”

Chris Youhill

10/09/12 – 06:58

There are other mysteries here! I know the camera can lie (or the process can) but that’s not Poppy Red, and I’m not sure about the side band- should be a sort of grey-white and yet seems to match the presumably original window surrounds- which would be self-colour cream, I imagine: yet the grey wheels are there and NBC fleetname. As to where… looks too warm for Keighley: has a look of east Leeds about it

Joe

10/09/12 – 06:59

I remember seeing the first MWs entering service in Bristol in February 1958. These had AHY registrations and ugly flat backs. The second (DAE) series had the more rounded style and I suppose other early operators of the type had bodywork which went through the same design change.

Geoff Kerr

11/09/12 – 06:52

We really need Brendan to tell us where this photo was taken to be sure of the location. In 1960, as Chris says, there was certainly a service 9/9A in York, but it was invariably a double-decker route in those days. I worked it many times as a conductor; a very busy urban route. The picture dates from NBC days – at least 9 or 10 years later – by which time things might have changed, of course. If the picture is indeed in York, things must have changed a lot, since the very idea of OMO on the Clifton/Tang Hall Lane service in the mid-1960’s would have been thought laughable. In Tilling days, York had only one single deck city service, (Leeman Road/Hull Road, route 7), necessitated by a low bridge, operated in my time with L5Gs, (YSGs), later replaced with SUs, (YSMAs). There were then very few OMO routes, and all of them, as you’d expect, were light semi-rural services.

Roy Burke

11/09/12 – 06:55

Well Chris- that looked like a York street light, too. Did NBC remove the “York”, and have West Yorkshire in East Yorkshire (nearly?) …or is this bus out of area, which explains the blinds?

I should have added that its not West Yorkshire red either which was much redder? This is almost maroon.

Joe

11/09/12 – 06:58

Sorry Joe but this is not east Leeds West Yorkshire had no service numbers as low as that in the Leeds area all services in east Leeds were either throughs to York and points east or at a push to places like Barwick Scoles and other dormatory villages which were in the West Riding until 1974 West Yorkshire applied NBC fleet names to standard Tilling red but often painted the cream band on both saloons and deckers.

Chris Hough

11/09/12 – 07:01

Apologies for being a little slow in responding to the above comments folks, but I’m making preparations for my ‘jollies’ and have been ‘sidetracked’ away from OB Photos several times! Paul, Chris Y and Joe, sorry to keep you in suspense as a result, but the photo was taken on Woodfield Road, Harrogate. The vehicle was on the newly-introduced 9A Bus Station – Dene Park route, serving a new estate of low-rise flats for older people. From what I can recall, 1146 had been recently transferred from I think, Leeds depot, and presumably had not yet received a blind showing Dene Park, which would go some way in explaining the unhelpful (and slovenly) route display. (There is also what appears to be a maroon Leeds depot allocation disc in front of the fleet number, rather than a green Harrogate one). Joe, your comment on the livery has me puzzled too. I’m not sure whether the processing (AGFA slide) has made the poppy red look like Tilling red, or whether the bus was still wearing Tilling red, with NBC grey wheels, white band and fleetnames applied. Some WY depots did apply white bands and fleetnames to vehicles still in Tilling red, if the paintwork was still sound, pending a full repaint into poppy red at a later date. I smiled at your comment that the view looked too warm for Keighley.

Brendan Smith

12/09/12 – 07:11

Thanks for settling this teaser for us Brendan – I had based my wild assumption of the wrong year of course, and on the pretty unlikely possibility of a vehicle transfer or loan to York – and my meerkat informant has received one week’s notice !!

Chris Youhill

12/09/12 – 07:11

Brendan, as a Keighley postcoder (although living just over the border into North Yorkshire), I must defend the place! Emily Bronte would have had difficulty selling “Wuthering Heights” with the title “Sunny Hills”! When we think of famous people with “sunny dispositions” we automatically think of Denis Healey, Eric Pickles, and Alastair Campbell who were all born in Keighley! There’s nothing wrong with good old fashioned gloom and misery. Mark my words, no good will come from sunshine, it only attracts the wasps!

Paul Haywood

13/09/12 – 06:59

Thanks for settling the mystery, Brendan. I have several views of buses still in Tilling green or red but with NBC style fleetname. A Southern Vectis bus in Southampton (on loan to Hants & Dorset and with the latter’s fleet number – don’t fret, boys, I’ll submit it for consideration in a week or two!) has Tilling green, NBC fleetname and the white stripe.

Pete Davies

West Yorkshire – Bristol RELH6G – AWR 405B – ERG 5

West Yorkshire - Bristol RE - AWR 405B - ERG 5


Copyright John Stringer

West Yorkshire Road Car Co
1964
Bristol RELH6G
ECW DP47F

A while back I posted a gallery of photos taken on the occasion of a Farewell to Samuel Ledgard tour in 1967.
Taken on the same day at the start of the tour is this one showing West Yorkshire Road Car’s fine Bristol RELH6G/ECW coach ERG5 (AWR 405B)loading in Bradford’s Chester Street Bus Station.
Behind is our tour coach – Ledgard’s Tiger Cub/Burlingham Seagull UUA 794.
Alongside is West Yorkshire’s SBW28 (KWU 388), a Bristol LWL6B/ECW B39R new in 1952 as no. 451 but renumbered in 1954. It was withdrawn in November 1967 and sold to North’s the dealer in 1968, passing to Drury (Northern) Ltd, Huddersfield for works transport.
Behind the LWL is SMG11 (MWR 222), a Bristol LS5G/ECW B45F new in 1954 as EUG11 with DP41F seating. It had been rebuilt by ECW as B45F in 1958 and renumbered SUG11, but then renumbered again to SMG11 (in the MW series) in 1962. It was withdrawn in 1968 and also sold to North’s.

Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer

15/01/13 – 14:49

My first solo visit to London from Sheffield was on one of these. (E reg. – but I didn’t record which one.) I knew I would not get a ZF Reliance – SUT didn’t do Yorkshire Services and East Midland didn’t do the Sheffield diagram. The ZF Reliance remains my favourite but the RE was a revelation and started my “love affair” with the marque and model both as passenger and as driver. A magic carpet ride and smoothly quiet. Was this only the ’60s? [Stephen Morris once said that standards of ride and engineering were never bettered than on the AEC Regal IV – the same could be said, especially of rear engined vehicles, of the Bristol RELH6G/L (and sisters)].

David Oldfield

15/01/13 – 17:38

In Lancaster, we used to have West Yorkshire vehicles coming through on the X88, which ran between Morecambe and Leeds/Bradford. So far as I can recall, these were usually from the CUG/EUG/SUG classes of LS, but we had the more modern MW types from time to time.
I have a view of one of these in the background of a slide of one of the Standerwick Atlanteans, but it isn’t suitable for publication.
With the others, there were obvious differences, but why was the example above not a full CRG???

Pete Davies

16/01/13 – 05:13

Probably due the peculiarity of official designations by BTC/ECW for these early coaches, Pete. If they had full destination blinds (including number boxes) and powered folding doors, then they were designated DP (express). If they had a single piece coach door and small destination blinds without number box they were designated Coaches. DPs included United’s 43 seaters fitted out to the most luxurious specification for the long trek to London. [Including the arm-chair like seats, a notable feature of RE coaches.] This looks like one of these United-like “DPs” – although 47 was the usual capacity for these REs.

David Oldfield

PS: The new Weymann Part 2 book designates Sheffield’s Fanfare Leopards as Express. The only difference between them and any other Fanfare produced is the full destination display – including number box.

16/01/13 – 08:40

Thanks, David!

Pete Davies

16/01/13 – 17:15

I agree with David Oldfield’s comments regarding the quiet comfortable ride of the ECW bodied RELH6G I think because the bodywork was so solidly built with good sound insulation and as they normally had only 47 seats quite spacious for passengers.
Driving on the other hand especially on the early 5 speed manuals took some getting used to as hearing the engine note to time gear changes was not easy but once mastered it gave genuine satisfaction, the main bugbear was what seemed to be too wide a gap between the 2nd and 3rd gears which was present on all RE’s coach or bus that I drove.
Also be careful selecting reverse on those type if the heater control was in the mid position in it’s quadrant as it was very easy to trap your finger very painful, but for all that I am glad to have driven the vehicles of the 60’s and 70’s rather than the automatic power operated point and steer vehicles that have followed since then where I would feel more of a wheel hand than a driver.

Diesel Dave

17/01/13 – 05:28

Yes. As an operator friend of mine once said, “I want professional drivers, not steering wheel attendants.” As a fan of the ZF manual box [I know, not available on REs] I have only ever driven semi-automatic REs. Pleasurable, nonetheless. The gap between ratios on 2nd and 3rd gears was always far more noticeable on the Leyland Leopard, though.

David Oldfield

18/01/13 – 06:35

I have always been a fan of the RE despite an unfortunate incident involving one. In 1973 I went from Salisbury to Swindon for the purposes of a vasectomy. The deed was done and I caught the service bus home. At the time this route was shared by Wilts and Dorset and Bristol Omnibus and it was the latter’s RE that I boarded. Despite a dose of aspirin and decent suspension I felt every bump! At the short stop in Marlborough I had a walk round but was very glad to reach Endless Street bus station, which incidentally the asset strippers are going to sell now. Several years ago I saw a preserved example at the Warminster running day. It pulled away with that glorious Leyland sound and distinctive transmission noise and a shudder went through me.

Paragon

18/01/13 – 06:36

A lovely shot John, crammed full of interest – and doesn’t that cream and red livery really brighten up the wet weather scene? I cannot help but agree with David and Diesel Dave’s comments regarding the RE coaches. I had a real soft spot for them and thought they looked elegant and restrained, and as you say David, gave a very quiet and comfortable ride. West Yorkshire provided a coach for interested Central Works and Harrogate depot staff to visit the 1970 Earl’s Court Commercial Show. The company provided ERG7, their only ERG with semi-automatic transmission. It was such a smooth and gently powerful beast, and our three drivers (fitters Johnny Berry and Malcolm Houseman, and I think, driving instructor Johnny Parker) drove it as taught. Each upward gearchange was paused in neutral, to allow the Gardner engine’s revs to ‘die down’ before the next ratio was selected, and the changes were barely perceptible. Only the engine and exhaust notes gave the game away that the next gear had been selected.
David’s comments are correct relating to the designations – ERG being Express, Rear engine, Gardner, as the class had bus-type glider doors and a bus-style destination layout. They were painted cream and red, denoting their ‘dual-purpose’ status. The full coach version (CRG) had a one-piece coach door, and had a smaller coach-style (two aperture) destination display. Livery was cream and maroon, as befitting their more prestigious duties, and the coach version also sported a deeper aluminium trim strip beneath the side and rear windows, which was also ribbed. By the way David, if the coach you rode on to London was E-reg’d, it would have been CRG1 (OWT 241E), as it was WY’s only E-reg’d RELH. It was always my favourite WY RELH, and was company’s only manual gearbox CRG. It also had a fascinating history all of its own!

Brendan Smith

18/01/13 – 08:14

Brendan, thanks for that. Would that mean it was the RELH6B that was an “unfinished” test bed vehicle built sometime before 1967? After fulfilling its test duties it was re-engined with a Gardner and sent to ECW to be properly finished.

David Oldfield

18/01/13 – 11:03

Just like Brendan I have the very greatest admiration for all versions of the Bristol RE. Having at one time had many relations in the South I was a fairly regular traveller on the London services and the RE coaches were above reproach in all respects, particularly quiet smooth running and supreme comfort – we have every sympathy with your predicament Paragon but the Bristol can scarcely be blamed for that, and what a mercy you didn’t have to travel home on some of today’s ghastly apologies.
The Bristol RE service bus was equally impeccable in every way – not least in tidy professional ECW appearance. A well known driver who at one time used to write very balanced, sensible and informed articles about various models once gave the RE a wicked slating, saying that its road holding was nothing short of dangerous etc etc – I was amazed by this obviously genuinely meant opinion, and could only reflect on what he might have thought to a wet road and an AEC Swift with most of the load in the rear area !!

Chris Youhill

18/01/13 – 11:38

…..or a Leyland National 1…..

David Oldfield

19/01/13 – 06:21

I once caught the by then National Express coach from Wigan to Leeds in the mid seventies I was somewhat surprised when an ECW bodied RE West Yorkshire coach arrived.
The ensuing ride was a bit of a Tardis moment; a superb ride in a seat that todays body builders would do well to study. A well driven bus complete with conductor of vintage years.
Incidentally did ECW ever change the seat support design (on the aisle end) in the last 40 years prior to their final closure? All the ones I’ve ever seen look like they were designed in the thirties.

Chris Hough

19/01/13 – 06:53

Oh yes, Chris, those were the days…..

David Oldfield

19/01/13 – 09:48

I’ve done Penzance to Aberdeen over three days as a passenger in Roger Burdett’s Royal Blue RE a couple of years ago. Great comfort and large windows to look out of – very good indeed

Ken Jones

19/01/13 – 11:35

Yes David, CRG1 was indeed the Bristol RELH6B test bed vehicle you describe (chassis number REX003). It did have a turbocharged Bristol BHW engine fitted at one point while with Bristol C. V, which was based on a horizontal version of the BVW unit. As you say, it was later fitted with a Gardner 6HLX engine, and the body kitted out to full coach specification. The BHW engine never went into production, which was a pity in some ways, as the sound effects would no doubt have been quite interesting, whether in turbocharged or naturally-aspirated form.

Brendan Smith

19/01/13 – 14:40

I used to be quite pally with some of the drivers who worked these on the Newcastle/London run, and they all spoke very highly of them. To me they always looked dignified and quietly restrained in United’s olive green and cream coach livery ‘the vehicles that is and not the drivers’ sad to think that some of these coaches ended up in the anonymous all white corporate image livery of National Express

Ronnie Hoye

19/01/13 – 18:01

OTA 640G

—- sorry but I think these vehicles looked really good in the NATIONAL livery and I’m glad that OTA 640G is carrying this livery in preservation. It looks sleek and stylish, but I know such a comment might upset people who always want to see vehicles in original liveries, but here again there are already a number of Bristol RE coaches preserved in Royal Blue livery.

Ken Jones

20/01/13 – 05:04

Ken. You could be right, but a Duple or Plaxton looks horrendous. The ECW gets away with it because of its parallel straight line.

David Oldfield

20/01/13 – 12:26

My point is not so much that they didn’t look nice, some types suited the livery very well, but it was the fact that they all looked the same. Pre NBC the BET group used a wide variety of vehicles with many instantly recognisable liveries, but even the more uniform Tilling fleets still had a certain amount of individuality, Royal Blue and United being classic examples. However, when they became NBC they lost all that and became anonymous and boring.

Ronnie Hoye

20/01/13 – 12:28

In the mid 1970s I used to travel quite frequently between Purley and Eastbourne by National Express. The vehicle that usually turned up was a National Travel (South East) [aka Timpson] Bedford YRQ carrying a Willowbrook Spacecar body, and the thing always made a meal of the gradients along the Caterham Valley and across the Weald. The standard of ride was truly awful, pitching and bouncing over quite ordinary road surfaces, and the bodywork itself seemed to be exceedingly plastic and crude. At weekends, the outbound trip from Purley was sometimes duplicated by an RE such as that shown in Ken Jones’s photo, and the contrast in high passenger comfort and effortless road performance could not have been greater. Having driven YRQs with bus bodywork, I suspect that much of the problem with the NT(SE) coaches was the Spacecar body, which soon acquired a notorious reputation for fragility. The Bristol RE was an outstanding design, and Stokes couldn’t wait to kill it off in favour of the Leyland National.

Roger Cox

03/03/13 – 07:57

An RE was the best for the passenger and the driver. It did depend on the suspension type and I drove my first one in the mid 60s for United Counties from Northampton to London. Once on the motorway she could be opened up and the front seemed to rise slightly and she was away. The steering was good and ideal for town work as well. Going through was a doddle. I drove a lot of RE’s for the Royal Blue and they were just as good. They were good for luggage also which helped to distribute the weight. They would not cope with the size of some of the suitcases which are in use these days.

Jim Stapleton

03/03/13 – 10:49

The ECW coach body on the RE was a thoughtful blend of traditional and modern design based on excellent engineering and quality standards of build. At the time there were a good number of outstanding looking (and quality) coach bodies available on a Leopard and Reliance chassis and of course BMMO had their own excellent contender, but for pure class in every department nothing beat the RE/ECW combo and it survived to look the least bland in National’s so called livery.

Phil Blinkhorn

14/06/13 – 12:11

Diesel Dave’s comment regarding the difficulty in hearing the engine to time gear changes, reminds me of the many journeys I made between Newcastle and Leeds on these vehicles. Most drivers kept the cab window open to hear the engine/exhaust. One chap though, who I regarded as the absolute expert, used a different technique. On the up changes, the gear lever would be offered very gently to the next position. You could see the stick vibrate but such was the delicacy of touch that no grating sound could be heard. When the revs were right, the vibrating ceased and the lever just fell into the next gear!
At the other end of the scale we once had a Northern General driver (I have no idea why) who had never driven an RE before. We crunched and ground our way south with the driver trying to avoid changing gear whenever possible. To his credit, he admitted that the problems were down to him and not the bus.

Bob Hunter

29/12/13 – 16:21

When I started work at Keighley depot there was DX types SMGS SMAS SRGS VRS LHS lots of conductors the real thing always on time very rarely missed not has comfortable I remember KDX 39-44 69-71 93-96 KDX 133-145 162-166 I think KDX 138 was based at Skipton along with VR 44 later to be 1944 SRGS were good to drive with the semi auto-gearbox I went to Lowestoft to bring back the Leyland Olympian I brought 1801 I think it had a Vorth gearbox 2 more of my fellow drivers brought 1802 1803 these were taken to Harrogate then later they came to Keighley also around that time the Leyland National was introduced the DXs and SRGs where disappearing.

John French

West Yorkshire - Bristol RE - AWR 405B - ERG 5 Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

26/06/17 – 07:20

Well good folks of OBP, I have to apologise most profusely, and especially to our David O, for peddling mis-information on 18.1.13 relating to West Yorkshire’s CRG1. I have only just realised, whilst browsing on OBP that CRG1 was not WY’s only E-regd RELH. For some inexplicable reason I had totally forgotten about CRG2-4 (PWR 858-860E). I could blame this on the ‘short’ E-registration letter year (‘F’ suffix registrations commencing in August 1967, heralding the letter suffix ‘year’ changing from January to August) or I could blame teenage excitement on the arrival of the five dual-door RELL6Gs (SRG34-38:PYG 652-656E) overshadowing all else, but it was neither. I’m now off to eat a large slice of humble pie with a few green beans!

Brendan Smith

West Yorkshire – Morris Commercial – HYG 972 – 618

Photograph by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

West Yorkshire Road Car Company
1949
Morris Commercial
Beadle B35R

618 was one of a pair (with 619) of Morris Commercial/Beadle buses bought by West Yorkshire in 1949. They were equipped with new Morris Commercial running units and a Morris-built Saurer 6 cylinder diesel engine. I believe Beadle produced this chassisless design for the BTC Group ex Tilling Companies with the intention of using re-conditioned parts. Crosville bought 22 Beadle chassisless buses with re-conditioned Leyland Cub parts and there maybe other operators with similar buses but I am not of aware of any other new-build Morris Commercial/Beadles like West Yorkshire 618/619 with other ex Tilling Companies.
618 and 619 never strayed from Harrogate and always seemed to operate on the local services in the town. Both buses had short operational service lives and lasted only until July 1956. Maybe these two buses were regarded as experimental by West Yorkshire which may explain their short time in service.
They were both then converted into depot service vans which extended their time with West Yorkshire for a year or two but both had been disposed of by 1959.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Richard Fieldhouse

18/03/12 – 15:20

Beadle actually built a single batch of 12 Morris/Saurer integrals for BTC Companies in 1949 with build numbers JCB82-94.
They were:
LTA 148/149 – Western National 2019/20.
MHU 246/247 – Bristol Tramways 2500/1.
HYG 972/973 – West Yorkshire RCC 618/619.
MHN 601/602 – United Automobile CBM 1/2.
FBD 915/916 – United Counties 115/6.
JRU 62/63 – Hants & Dorset TS 846/7.

John Stringer

19/03/12 – 09:13

The United Auto pair (later renumbered M1/2) were even shorter-lived than the WYRCC ones. Retired by UAS in 1955 they went to Bryn Melyn Motor Services of Llangollen which retired them in 1959 – it appears that they were then scrapped. Similar Beadle monstrosities with Bedford running units had equally short life spans and one can only presume that they were cheap!

Neville Mercer

19/03/12 – 09:14

What fascinating vehicles the Beadle-Morris integral buses were. Interesting how the batch was split into pairs for six operating companies John, and one wonders whether they may have been BTC trial vehicles perhaps. The West Yorkshire ones were renumbered SM1/2 (Single-deck, Morris engine) in 1954, and one or two of the older fitters referred to them as Morris-Saurers, due to the engines described by Richard. As stated above, West Yorkshire’s examples were converted by the company into rather neat- looking depot vans, becoming 1023/4 in the service vehicles fleet. (SM2 was converted in 1957, and SM1 in 1959, although both were withdrawn from passenger service as Richard says, in 1956). Each had hinged panels fitted partway along the roof, from the top of the rear doors forwards. This allowed heavier items to be loaded or unloaded using an overhead crane or an ‘iron man’ portable winch. Each vehicle was also shortened from a point behind the rear axle, and their side windows were panelled over. They were painted Tilling green with gold fleet names for their new role, and looked quite attractive conversions.

Brendan Smith

19/03/12 – 14:13

I would be interested to know more about the two operated by Bristol Nos 2500/2501. The registration numbers are from 1949 when I was still in a pram but I cannot recall ever seeing or hearing anything of them. Does anyone have any pictures or idea where they were used and sold/scrapped? They don’t exactly look like things of beauty!

Richard Leaman

19/03/12 – 15:30

Quite interesting that the Ex Tilling companies specified Beadle chassisless units as service buses, whereas the BET used Beadle for batches of coach bodies during these years, using reclaimed pre war running units.
I believe that some BTC companies also received integral Beadle service buses using reclaimed units, the Crosville examples coming to mind, with Pre-war Leyland Cub units.
Another fascinating exercise was that at Eastern Counties, where Dennis Ace units were used in ECW single deck bodies in a similar “chassisless” enterprise.
Quite an interesting subject to look back on, and well worth opening up to wider discussion!

John Whitaker

19/03/12 – 17:34

Does anybody know of any pictures of the two WYRCC examples after conversion to depot service vans.

Eric

19/03/12 – 17:37

The Bristol Tramways pair didn’t last long either, being sold to a dealer in November 1958 and later passing to a showman.

Michael Wadman

20/03/12 – 15:57

Another fascinating posting from Richard F. Thanks very much, Richard.
As my friend John W points out, this is a most interesting topic that raises a whole range of issues. As John W also points out, for instance, Beadle were involved in the early 1950’s with all three South-eastern BET companies, who had quite a lot of semi-chassisless or integral vehicles, with Leyland, AEC and Commer mechanicals. These, as far as the Leyland and AEC running gear was concerned, were largely constructed re-using pre-war parts. (M&D also experimented with integral vehicles by Harrington/Commer, and even a single Saunders-Roe vehicle, fitted, I think, with a Gardner 5LW engine).
However, all these vehicles, whether buses or coaches, were intended for standard operations rather than for lighter duties like the Morris Commercials. I wonder how such an apparently unlikely combination of Nuffield, Beadle and the BTC came about. After all, Morris were hardly mainstream PSV manufacturers, and why was a Saurer engine chosen over other, well-known alternatives?
The ‘wider discussion’ John W calls for might also include the not altogether successful history of light-weight vehicles in general. WY and many other large operators had a few Bedford OBs, which were also quite common amongst independents, but with the possible exception of the Bristol SC, the production of a good light-weight PSV seems to escaped most manufacturers. In my day, there was the unlamented Albion Nimbus, and I guess most of us can remember awful Ford Transit or Mercedes-Benz van-based vehicles, (post OBP period, thankfully!). The prevailing view I remember, however, was the seeming attractiveness of lower initial price and running costs were always going to be outweighed by shorter vehicle life and less dependable service, as well as lack of appeal to passengers. As a senior M&D manager once said to me, ‘Light weights aren’t worth a candle. We should stick to having the right tools for the job!’

Roy Burke

20/03/12 – 17:18

Agree with the M & D manager wholeheartedly but the Albion Victor VTL21 (with Leyland 0.375 engine) was, rather like the Gilford in recent threads, very highly regarded by those who took a chance and bought one. [They were really Leyland’s own answer to the Bedford SB13 – which had the same engine. Significantly, for what they were (light-weight) all Leyland powered Bedfords were at least rated well, if not highly.] The Albion Victor suffered, like the Bridgemaster and FRM1 from being introduced onto the market after newer, more popular designs had cornered the market. It was also more expensive than an SB13!
As for the Morrises….. They had limited prewar success with the Viceroy and Dictator but then withdrew in the face of competition from the big boys. They tried again with an OB sized vehicle after the war, but no-one toppled the OB. Morris had a long and honourable tradition but by 1950 had very old-fashioned engines. Thus when they merged with Austin to form BMC, they also acquired Austin engines and gearboxes which were more up to date and, frankly, better. There wasn’t anything suitable in the cupboard for commercials, so Morris used a Saurer engine built under licence – so strictly it was their own. [Shades of Crossley – sic.]

David Oldfield

21/03/12 – 07:34

The Morris Commercial diesel engines were licensed built Saurer designs that came in 3.4 litre 4 cylinder and 5.1 litre 6 cylinder versions. These engines later had their capacities increased to 3.8 litre and 5.7 litre respectively, and continued in production under Leyland ownership, when they were called the 4/98 and 6/98 – the “98” was the bore measurement in mm, and the stroke was 125 mm.
Saurer pioneered a version of the toroidal piston cavity, sometimes used in conjunction with a four valve head. Other engine makers using the Saurer principles were required to pay royalties, which Crossley, for one, refused to do, with catastrophic consequences for that Company.
The pre-war Morris Commercial bus models had imposing names such as Viceroy, Dictator, Imperial and Director, and some, at least, were designed by AEC’s former Chief Designer Charles K. Edwards, but they did not earn a good reputation and soon vanished from the scene.
Apparently, one of the early Beadle chassisless buses was fitted with Dennis Ace running units and went to Eastern Counties. Perhaps this vehicle was the inspiration for the 16 ECW/Dennis chassisless buses of 1950 that used Ace components.

Roger Cox

21/03/12 – 11:50

Fascinating responses from Roy and others on the “chassisless” debate, which seemed to be “raging” 1949/50 ish. and especially the strategic differences between BTC and BET, with all sorts of side players such as Sentinel.
I know Bristol/ECW had a captive market, but the ensuing chassisless LS was perhaps strongly influenced by this activity, and it was far more successful than the Leyland and AEC variants, even though later replaced by a “Chassis” MW version.
Most of the rural bus operators probably needed lightweight vehicles for sparse and unremunerative routes, and hence the “WYRC “Flying Pigs” and their post war replacements in the form of Beadle OBs , but it would seem that Bristol were intent on using the lighter weight of this concept as a way forward with fuel efficiency for full size vehicles. Just how successful this sort of approach was is not for me to say, as my bus operating experience is “nil”.
Was the success of the LS due mainly to its lack of competition, or was it truly a bus operator`s dream?

John Whitaker

22/03/12 – 08:11

Eric, there is a photograph of the pair of West Yorkshire depot vans in a book by Colin Wright – ‘Bus Company Service Vehicles’ (Trucks in Britain Vol 4). I had not realised just how much shorter WY had made them during their conversion until I had hunted out the book again. Looking at the picture of the vans, there are only two bays within the wheelbase, instead of the four present when in bus form. Their integral construction no doubt made the removal of the various unwanted parts easier than on a chassised vehicle. They were fascinating vehicles, but it has to be said that the Beadle bodies did look quite quaint – the styling being somewhat at odds with the technological image associated with integral construction at the time.

Brendan Smith

22/03/12 – 13:31

Thanks Brendan for the information and description. I’ll keep a lookout for that book at events this summer.

Eric

22/03/12 – 13:32

Quaint is not the word I would have chosen for their bodies, Brendan: the kindest I could be would be eccentric!
Its fascinating the way there are hints of ECW with the cream/white strip above the windows.

Chris Hebbron

25/03/12 – 08:58

The comments on lightweight buses stirred some memories. West Yorkshire Road Car took delivery of four ECW-bodied Bedford VAM14 service buses in 1967 (SML 1-4: Single-deck, one Man operation, Leyland engine). They were part of a THC order for twenty (Western National and Eastern Counties were the other recipients) and were meant to be a stop gap measure pending the Bristol LH going into production in 1968. The VAM appeared to be a well-respected lightweight chassis, being popular with many small to medium-sized operators in the independent (especially coaching) sector. Sadly however, the four WY examples lasted barely four years in the fleet. Apparently, they went through quite a few clutches and prop shafts in that time, and they were not too popular with drivers. The Leyland 0.400 engines proved reliable however, and the buses were simple to maintain and repair, but fitters at Grove Park depot (home to two of the VAMs) felt they were just ‘too lightweight’ for their intended duties. Much as Roy, David and the M&D manager would probably concur.

Brendan Smith

14/09/12 – 07:12

The two mentioned JRU 63 and JRU 62 ended up at Aston Coaches Marton in February 1963 and were operated in the PSV fleet for a short time then sold to French Collett Cumnor, Astons also has a number of Leyland Beadles EFU 855/841/842

David Aston

19/07/14 – 08:07

Over two years ago this thread discussed Beadle chassisless buses with Morris running units. Neville Mercer wrote:-
“The United Auto pair (later renumbered M1/2) were even shorter-lived than the WYRCC ones. Retired by UAS in 1955 they went to Bryn Melyn Motor Services of Llangollen which retired them in 1959 – it appears that they were then scrapped. Similar Beadle monstrosities with Bedford running units had equally short life spans and one can only presume that they were cheap!”
Two points arise.
1. is there any possibility that the bodies of the Llangollen pair were those shipped to Macau – with or without chassis?
2. The Bedford OB/Beadle chassisless, ex-ENOC which went to Macau lasted in arduous service until 1974/75.
In both cases reference to my book (DTS Publishing) gives details.

Mike Davis