Potteries Motor Traction 1953 Guy Arab IV Weymann H32/26R
These vehicles were ordered by Northern General and diverted to PMT. The destination blind boxes were quickly converted to PMT spec. A very poor bus in performance and ride quality having a Gardener 5cyl engine. Best part about them was light steering and in the summer you could drive with the cab door open. Although reliable they never strayed far from the depot. I managed to do 42 mph once in one.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Michael Crofts
09/12/13 – 09:26
These had all gone by the time I was at PMT. Being highbridge I would imagine they were allocated to Newcastle Depot. I well remember the poor performance of the 1956 Daimler CVG5s but those later fitted with a 6LW were a much better bus.
Ian Wild
09/12/13 – 14:40
I think the Orion looks better on a traditional-radiator Guy Arab IV than on any other chassis. Michael: when you spoke of poor ride quality, was that just the vibration from the 5LW, or did they give a choppy ride as well? I’m curious because Aldershot & District had Orion bodies on one batch of their Dennis K4s and found that the spring settings that suited the heavier East Lancs batch very well had to be modified for the Orions. Good to know that you found the steering light. I’ve read elsewhere that some drivers found Arab IV steering heavy, which in view of the excellence of Guy design at that time surprised me. A maintenance issue? Or was the light steering of this Potteries batch attributable to the lightness of the 5LW+Orion combination? 42 mph sounds pretty spectacular, by the way. I wonder whether these machines had a high final-drive ratio, which would yield wonderful fuel consumption on long, flat runs, but would certainly contribute to the impression of sluggishness on start-stop work.
Ian Thompson
09/12/13 – 17:32
Ian, I’ve just seen the photo and your comment about how the Orion looks and couldn’t agree more. I remember seeing these in the Newcastle areas (both Tyneside and the Potteries) as a boy and they always looked impressive. Somehow the solid colour scheme helps.
Phil Blinkhorn
09/12/13 – 17:55
Just a thought: I have read elsewhere that differences in steering characteristics between buses of the same type with different operators were sometimes caused by the fitting of different tyres.
Peter Williamson
10/12/13 – 06:44
Peter, different tyres certainly would make some difference.
Phil Blinkhorn
10/12/13 – 06:44
At PMT a white steering wheel denoted a highbridge bus. Did the NGT buses of this type have normal black steering wheels?
Ian Wild
10/12/13 – 06:45
The harsh ride was down to the suspension. At the time I think we were running on Firestone tyres at Newcastle Depot.
Michael Crofts
10/12/13 – 15:18
Does anyone know the location in this picture? I think the destination blind reads Newcastle via Garner Street.
Chris Barker
10/12/13 – 15:21
The means of indicating height or width to drivers (and bus wash operators) is a subject in itself. Sheffield and Chesterfield buses carried a letter W on the dash to indicate 8 feet width, but for whose benefit? Preserved Chesterfield 225 has a yellow steering wheel, which I was told indicated highbridge. Some Southend vehicles carried a red one – was this to indicate height or width? Bristol Tramways/Omnibus fitted white steering wheels to their 8-foot wide buses to warn drivers not to take one over a narrow bridge across the harbour. ECOC and several other Tilling Group companies did the same but it cannot have been general Group policy as Thames Valley KSWs had a black one.
Geoff Kerr
10/12/13 – 15:21
I disagree, Michael, in my opinion the harsh ride was due to the poor construction and extreme lightness of the early Orion bodies. The second batch we had at Percy Main, FT 9003/7 were an improvement on the first ones, FT 7893/6, however, the 1956 Park Royal bodied Arab IV was a superb vehicle in every sense bar one, NGT still specified the 5LW rather than opting for the 6LW. Having said that, they could scale the North face of the Eiger if asked to do so. As for speed, I think they must have had a high ratio diff, as they could get up to around the fifty mark. White steering wheels? The only ones I can remember at Percy Main were on the Daimler Fleetlines.
Ronnie Hoye
11/12/13 – 07:04
Here is a picture of the Guy H542 when brand new
and also a picture of same having had a bit of a hard life. (I do not own either picture)
Michael Crofts
11/12/13 – 08:09
Michael’s second photo reminds me that PMT’s vehicles in the mid to late 1960s often had a care worn, shabby look.
Phil Blinkhorn
12/12/13 – 07:13
The red Steering Wheels at Southend was to warn that the bus was a highbridge and therefore banned from services 7/8 which had very low railway bridges.
Philip Carlton
09/12/15 – 06:04
Chris Barker asked about location. This image is Trinity St in Hanley, opposite the then Odean Cinema. I regularly travelled this route in late 50s/ early 60s. Little did I know that a decade later I’d be driving for PMT, though from Stoke Depot.
Photograph by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
Tynemouth and District 1952 Guy Arab III Weymann H30/26R
On the last leg of its journey from Whitley Bay St Mary’s Island to Newcastle Haymarket, this 1952 H30/26R Weymann bodied Guy Arab III was one of ten in the NGT Tynemouth and District fleet; FT 7381/90 181/90. When new the livery would have been the same as the two Regent’s and the Pickering Arab featured elsewhere on this site. The interiors of these sturdy well built bodies were finished to a very high standard, they were double skinned throughout, the lights had glass covers with chrome bezels and the area around the window’s was finished off with polished wood surrounds. As with all of T&D vehicles of the period, the seat cushions and backrests were upholstered in a rather attractive dark red moquette, the backs and cushion edges were trimmed in leather. Percy Main’s first 8ft wide buses, they were also the first with sliding cab doors, but they were a heavy beast and lacked many of the creature comforts we now take for granted. No heaters or power steering, they had a crash box and the brakes could best be described as adequate. They were fitted with the almost indestructible Gardner 5LW and breakdowns were extremely rare, but they were anything but fast, and these days they would be underpowered and would struggle to keep pace with traffic, but they could scale the North Face of The Eiger ‘metaphorically speaking’. I was 6 in 1952, so in my youth I must have clocked up quite a few passenger miles on these, but they were withdrawn in 1966 so I never drove one on service. However, one vehicle in particular was to play a significant part in my life; at the tender age of 21, in January 1967 I started my driver training at Percy Main and passed my test two weeks later, the training vehicle was 189 and the instructor was a chap called Jackie Gallon. He taught me how to start off using the clutch, then go through the box from 1 to 4 and back to 1 just by listening to the engine ‘no rev counters in those days’ the object of the exercise was to keep the engine in tune with the gearbox, and done properly the gears would just fall into place as smooth as silk, but get it wrong and everyone within a radius of 100yd’s would hear about it. Once you’ve mastered the technique you can get a quick change down on a hill that would rival any other gearbox I’ve ever encountered. The early Orion bodied Arabs that followed these were stripped to the bone to achieve lightness, but they were an unpleasant vehicle to be on as you were subjected to a constant barrage of knocks bangs rattles and squeaks, and the interiors looked cheap and chatty in comparison. I know of some similar Weymann bodies have survived, but I’m not aware of any on a Guy chassis. As a footnote, If you look behind the bus, going in the opposite direction is what looks like the rear of a MK 3 Zodiac, so the photo cant be earlier than 1962, but by the layout and style of the Shop At Binns logo, I would say it was about 1964.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye
24/03/13 – 15:09
Another gem from Ronnie! I note his comments about learning to drive a bus. Crash box? My first experience of driving a bus was on one of the Hampshire Bus (ex Wilts & Dorset) FLF trainers. That had a crash box. Going up was easy but, for coming down, I was told to make sure the speedo was showing precisely 20 for 4 to 3, and precisely 12 for 3 to 2. 1 was used only for hill starts. A chap at what was then Southampton Citybus was telling me one day that his instructor had said double declutching is for amateurs – if you listen to the engine, you can go straight through. This ties in very nicely with Ronnie’s comment about being in tune, and it ties in with what others on this site have said about the rear engine!
Pete Davies
24/03/13 – 15:10
Looking at the main photo and reading the text I was convinced the photo was indicative of Tyneside as I knew it when visiting in 1958/9. Then I saw Ronnie’s blow up inset and his comment about the Zodiac which is quite correct.
Apart from the Commer C series Mk2 (I can hear “the Knocker” as I type!) in front of what is presumably a PD2 (whose?) there is, at the extreme left, the front wing of a Sunbeam Rapier distinguishable from its Rootes Group contemporaries by its wheel embellisher. A very atmospheric photo of a time now almost half a century ago.
Phil Blinkhorn
24/03/13 – 16:47
Phil, the PD2 is one of Gateshead’s, they had the Newcastle Corporation destination layout rather than the standard NGT. The livery was a dark chocolate with cream centre band and also under the lower saloon windows, it was outlined in black and they had black wings. they looked superb, but it tended to fade rather quickly, and that made them look a bit drab.
Ronnie Hoye
24/03/13 – 16:48
With regards this posting by Ronnie of a Tynemouth Guy FT 7388, in which he mentions later, lightweight Orion bodies, not sure whether any had survived on Guy chassis.
Well, here is one that did, if only for a little while, seen here on some works contract when I stumbled across it in the Bromford Bridge area of Birmingham, one afternoon in the late sixties when I was working in that city. I recall it had the remains of “Northern” fleet names rather than Tynemouth, but it is the only shot I have of an Orion body on an exposed-radiator Guy chassis. I had always thought it was perhaps a rebodied older bus, a Utility even, perhaps not.
Rob Hancock
24/03/13 – 17:13
A superb photograph and wonderful commentary. To pick-up Phil’s point about the PD2 I would hazard a guess that the destination layout is that of Gateshead and District, but I am open to correction here.
Kevin Hey
This is all there is I”m afraid
24/03/13 – 17:40
Thanks Ronnie and Kevin for reminding me of Gateshead and District, especially of the livery, of which I’d all but forgotten. The number of operators in the Newcastle area with interestingly different liveries always made a visit worthwhile. I also note in the latest inset shot confirming my Sunbeam Rapier identification, the rear of a 1956 Vauxhall Cresta, though the owner saved money by not opting for the contrasting second colour flash!
Phil Blinkhorn
25/03/13 – 07:53
Yes, thanks Ronnie for confirming the destination layout on the PD2. It had never crossed my mind that Gateshead and District motorbuses had Newcastle Corporation-style destination indicator layout, well at least until the 30ft Titans and Atlanteans were taken into stock. The Newcastle destination layout was in fact the same as Huddersfield Corporation. This was introduced at Newcastle when Harry Godsmark became General Manager having previously been at Huddersfield. In the municipal sector there are quite a few examples of general managers introducing revised destination layouts to their new fleet based on the arrangements at their previous undertaking. The move by John C. Wake from St. Helens to Bradford is one example of this, although strangely he did not take the arrangement with him when he moved to Nottingham. As Phil says the Tyneside area was always worth visiting on account of the various operators.
Kevin Hey
25/03/13 – 07:53
Phil, the Rapier is also a convertible. Quite rare, especially in northern climes! Perhaps a little more commonly seen amongst Southdown Arab III’s, for example.
Eric Bawden
25/03/13 – 10:30
Absolutely Eric!
Phil Blinkhorn
25/03/13 – 15:03
Ronnie Is this photograph taken on the Gt North Road at Barras Bridge? The dotted white line on the roadway curving to the lower left of the photograph is intriguing. Was this a guide line for drivers of Corporation trolleybuses, I wonder? Phil/Eric If I only had my old copies of Observer’s Book of Automobiles! These books were superb for identifying cars and the variants!
Kevin Hey
25/03/13 – 15:58
Could be a clip from the 1961 film Payroll starring Michael Craig and Billie Whitelaw.
Roger Broughton
26/03/13 – 06:50
Yes, Kevin, the photographer would be standing with His/Her back to the South African War Memorial, if the bus had kept to the left it would have gone down Northumberland Street, which at that time was still the A1.
Phil, I knew I had a photo of one somewhere, it would have been taken from about the same place as the one of the Guy, but facing to the right. I think Gateshead had around 33 of these splendid all Leyland PD2’s, they were a mixture of both 8ft and 7ft 6″, the later were for services over the High Level Bridge which at that time had width restriction, the Trolleybus is one of 70 similar to the London Q’s, this is one of the first batch of 20, the remainder had the same destination layout as the Leyland
Ronnie Hoye
26/03/13 – 06:51
Yes Kevin, I also had a couple of editions of the Observers books and whilst they did come in handy they also listed many Russian and other Eastern Bloc cars that you would never see on British roads, as well as many US and Australian cars that were unlikely to grace our highways. Happy days though!
Eric Bawden
26/03/13 – 06:51
Yes this is Barras Bridge between the university and the bus station.I worked at the then new Civic Centre, just opposite, in 1970-73 just as the area was trashed by the central motorway.So I was familiar with this scene and there were still a few interesting buses about, though sadly the trolleybuses were long gone.
David Rhodes
26/03/13 – 06:52
As a Weymann fan, especially this classic design, how many of you (like me) noticed that this is a 27′ long bus with longer rear upstairs windows. I think it makes a good design even better (balance and integrity). Morecambe had at least one Regent III like this (which I believe is preserved), Devon General had a number (one of which is reserved ?). How many more were there at 27′ – I don’t count the Bury examples because they were a transition to the Aurora and had a mix of designs?
David Oldfield
26/03/13 – 08:13
Thanks for the PD2 photo Ronnie. Re the trolleybus, I well remember these because, apart from visits with my Father when he was working, he had cousins in Walker and Denton. My earliest memory of those is of staying in an hotel in, I think, Denton with the trolleybuses parked in front. Presumably this was the Denton terminus. As this was 1953 and I was around 6 at the time, the memory is hazy.
Phil Blinkhorn
28/03/13 – 10:53
Hard to imagine a better-looking bus than this very welcome posting of Ronnie’s. The dead-vertical, straight-sided radiator means business and the Weymann body looks as if had been sculpted from a block, rather than put together piece by piece. Before David O’s comment I hadn’t noticed that it was 27′ long. I don’t know how long these buses were in service, but with Guy-Gardner-Weymann quality they must have had a potential lifespan of 40-odd years. It’s a pity that changing needs and fashions cause such wastage. Ronnie Hoye and Pete Davies’s mention of clutchless changes remind me of a day in 1968 when this trickery came in very handy. I was doing a short, quiet but hilly Thames Valley working northward from Reading to the Unicorn Inn at Kingwood Common, when at the bottom of Prospect Street, Caversham, the clutch pedal went to the floor. Luckily the Lodekka had a very nicely-mannered AVW engine with an extremely precise pump and no backlash in the transmission, so I reckoned that with the conductor’s permission we could soldier on, using the starter to get us rolling in first gear after each stop. He agreed and rang through to Lower Thorn Street to warn them that a replacement bus would be needed later. Coming up to each stop where there was anyone to get on or off I dropped her into first for the last few yards and slowed to about one mph, and to our relief most people hopped on and off in paternoster-lift fashion. For old folk, of course, we came to a proper halt and restarted on the button. Not being able to change up out of first till the top of any real hill was an embarrassment, though on gentle slopes you could get up into second and beyond without risking a jerk. I can’t remember whether we did the same on the way back, or whether they sent the replacement up to meet us. I’m grateful to a co-operative conductor and a beautifully-engineered vehicle for making possible an antic I wouldn’t dream of risking today!
Ian Thompson
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
29/03/13 – 06:52
I once had a Fiat Uno whose clutch cable snapped. I drove it from my home in Chipping Sodbury to the garage in Bristol in the manner described by Ian – a bit hair-raising at times (with that gearing the starter would not have coped with any sort of gradient) but great fun. There are times when knowledge of crash gearboxes is very useful, even when you aren’t using a crash gearbox!
Peter Williamson
30/03/13 – 10:04
The very early Atlanteans we had at Godfrey Abbott (ex Ribble) were not fitted with an interlock on the gear change, it was perfectly possible, and by no means unusual to accidentally change down from fourth to first!! A sound that was like no other, before or since!! Some of the early semi’s had a ring of differing colour round the speedo to show when to change gears. This device could also be seen on Leyland/BUT engined DMU’s of similar vintage (could the connection be “Self Changing Gears”? of which W. A. Stanier of duchess fame was a director) Another excitement was with NCK 352 which used to stick on or about TDC, this bus had a large pair of Stilly’s as standard equipment! open bonnet, apply to nut on end of crankshaft, pull hard, then restart!!
Bournemouth Corporation 1943 Guy Arab II 5LW Weymann OB35F
This shot is from the Ray Soper “Gallery” contribution A Trolleybus tour in Bournemouth click on the title if you would like to view his Gallery and comments to it. The shot is shown here for indexing purposes but please feel free to make any comment regarding this vehicle either here or on the gallery.
Valliant Direct Coaches 1931 Gilford 168OT Weymann C30D
This is a photo of a 1931 Gilford 168OT coach with Weymann semi-fabric body along Brighton seafront. It is painted in the livery of Valliant Direct Coaches of Ealing, who owned it for many years. The coach was eventually saved by well-known bus saviour, Prince Marshall, and it languished for many years at the Science Museum Annexe at Wroughton, Nr Swindon, Wilts. Eventually, with the financial generosity of the London Omnibus Traction Society, Seb Marshall was able to restore it thoroughly to the immaculate state we see in the photo above.
Gilford was a short-lived company from 1929 and 1935. It was unusual in that it never made anything, merely being an assembly outfit. It also made Wycombe bodies, with the parts also being made to order and bought in. As might be deduced from the body name, they were based in High Wycombe. They used American petrol engines, especially Lycomings. One unusual feature was the suspension which used Gruss Air Springs, another US import, the front cylinders being easily spotted either side of the radiator. They were more like shock absorbers and enabled vehicles to ‘glide along smoothly and supremely comfortable on four cushions of compressed air’! These were indeed superior vehicles! Gilford were very successful in the early years, but the Wall Street Crash and Depression took its toll and competition from the big boys intensified, with sales dropping relentlessly from 1932, despite new models coming out and a move towards goods vehicles. A late attempt at fitting the unreliable Meadows diesel engine did not help the situation. The final straw was what caused problems for several companies, the formation of the London Passenger Transport Board in 1933, with the consequent takeover and demise of lots of independents in London and much of the adjoining counties. (Christopher Dodd, a London bus body builder, who’d supported the independents almost exclusively, was wiped out at a stroke). The success of Gilford in selling vehicles to independents over the years created the situation where, after the takeovers, London Transport became the largest operator in the UK of Gilford buses and coaches at 220, for some five years, until standardisation started in earnest!
Seb Marshalls blog on restoring GW 713 can be read here.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Chris Hebbron
Didn’t Gilford produce a prototype double decker of extremely low height and very modern appearance for the early 1930s?? I can’t remember if it was first a bus and later a trolleybus, or the other way around – I rather suspect the former. In any event it sadly never caught on apparently.
Chris Youhill
Bus then trolleybus. The remains of Gilford went through two rapid changes of owner before ending up with Sentinel. Another case of interesting antecedents – like the Roadliner to Dennis R via Duple 425 “family tree”.
David Oldfield
If we’re going ancient, let’s have more Gilford – although there weren’t many. What about Reo? [They were also used by the likes of Black and White.] …..and Sentinel who enjoyed a brief and honourable fling post war. If Gilford were the great might have been pre war then Foden and Sentinel were the great might have beens post war. Just a thought.
David Oldfield
I’m afraid my shots don’t go that far back, but if anyone wants to send me some then I will post them.
See the ‘Coming Soon’ panel the next two contributions fall into the ancient category
Peter
I’m sure I saw a photo of Gilford’s double-decker bus/trolleybus once, but can’t pin down where. It was certainly modern-looking for its time. We’ve all heard of the famous AEC Q front-entrance double-decker, but around the same time, Leyland also built a similar vehicle, which had a squarer flat front (might have been lowbridge) and also looked modern for its time. I don’t believe there were any takers and it was broken up in the end, if memory serves me right. Anyone got a photo of it? I’m not sure where the engine was placed, though, but not at the front.
Chris Hebbron
Chris H, are you sure it wasn’t the Leyland TTB front entrance trolleybus?
David Oldfield
You’re right David, I was a little adrift there!
Chris Hebbron
I am sorry to say that Chris Hebbron’s original information is not quite correct in that the photo of GW 713 in Valliant livery was taken some years ago after initial restoration by Prince Marshall & not as a result of recent restoration by his son Seb Marshall. It is currently in a very dismantled state and the subject of a very major restoration by Seb after his acquisition of the coach from Science Museum storage at Wroughton the progress of which can be seen on his blog via link at end of Chris’s article. Hopefully it will not be too long before it is once again restored to the immaculate condition shown in the photo.
Brian
I contacted Seb Marshall to fill in the gaps between its original restoration and its subsequent sad demise into the condition it sank into before he started restoring it. I can do no better than send you his reply which I think is worthwhile printing.
Hi Chris,
The photo was indeed taken in my father’s time, if you look closely he is driving, I believe it is Brighton ’63.
Alas early preservation did not have the funding it does today and the body was very tired back then and was only cosmetically enhanced by Valliants. As we’ve gone into it we’ve discovered it has had a very hard life, with a number of framework repairs evident not surprising really as it went to war!
We were planning to have it ready for Brighton next year, but work has dictated otherwise so sometime in the not too distant future is all I can say at the moment.
All the best, Seb
Chris Hebbron
You are right Chris, Gilford did build a low-height double-decker in 1931, and it was displayed at that year’s Commercial Motor Show. It was a very advanced design incorporating front wheel drive, thus allowing a very low floorline, as the usual bulk of the rear axle and differential casing were dispensed with. After delving into various books, all manner of things came to light. The bus was known as the ‘D-type’ (presumably for double-decker), and was of chassisless construction with an overall height of 12ft. 11ins, which was pretty impressive for a ‘decker with central gangways on both decks. The engine was also unusual in being a German-built Junkers horizontally-opposed 6-cylinder two-stroke diesel unit. A four-speed constant mesh gearbox was mounted ahead of the engine, and the drive then went to the front wheels. As usual, Gilford had fitted Gruss air springs to the vehicle, and the front suspension was independent to boot! The Wycombe 56-seat rear-entrance bodywork was of steel-framed construction, and was of a modern-looking full-fronted design. A Tilling-style three-piece front window arrangement was used on the upper deck, with the outer glasses curving round to meet the front side pillars. Unfortunately, no orders were forthcoming, and as David rightly says, it was then converted to a trolleybus, and apparently saw service as such with Wolverhampton and Southend-on-Sea. A picture of the bus in its original form was shown in Buses Illustrated No.8, but I’m sure I’ve seen a picture of it elsewhere, and will keep looking! Gilford chassis designations were generally straightforward. The numbers denoted the wheelbase (in feet and inches) and the letters described the driving position. So an SD was Standard Drive (meaning bonneted, or normal control), and an OT was Over Type (meaning driver alongside engine, or forward control). As such, the engaging 168OT in the photo would be of 16ft.8ins wheelbase, Over Type layout.
Brendan Smith
Its nice to see my grandfathers coach on the sea front I remember him talking to me about the coaches he had.
Stephen Valli
Stephen – I’m glad that the photo gave you pleasure. You will no doubt know that your grandfather is greatly respected among the bus enthusiast fraternity for his successful efforts at bus preservation when it was in its infancy.
Brendan, Thx for researching all that useful information on the ‘D’-type, most of which I was unaware of. As ever, it was a mixture of their own construction and buying-in parts and, as ever, the conservative bus industry of the time stayed well away from purchasing it, despite the general good name and record of Gilford. A photo of it would be wonderful, if you can track one down. Sadly, although I can boast about three of the earliest Buses Illustrated somewhere, No. 8 wasn’t one of them, more’s the pity!
Chris Hebbron
The patent number for the D-type is (GB)353,902 and was applied for by the Gilford Motor Company Ltd and Edward Bert Horne on April 29th 1930 and accepted on July 29th 1931. The drawing shows a lower deck plan, with the engine protruding significantly into the lower saloon with two pairs of rearward facing seats to each side of it, and a vertical section through the bus showing the front wheel drive and Gruss springs. You can view the drawing here.
Malcolm Thwaite
Thank you for posting such an interesting technical drawing Malcolm. I had read somewhere that the engine on the D-type had intruded into the lower saloon, but had not envisaged it doing so by quite as much as shown! The seating arrangement around it was fascinating – and what seats for the enthusiast they would have been, right next to that two-stroke engine….
Brendan Smith
24/01/12 – 05:52
Nice to see a colour picture of a Gilford. My grandfather drove for them when they were in High Wycombe and I have a photo of him sat on a chassis outside the factory
Andrew Stevens
05/04/14 – 07:07
I remember reading an extensive history of Gilford in Buses Illustrated once complete with many photographs. One reason for their demise mentioned was a large part of their market was to independents, and I understand that the problem was many of them were unable to pay the instalments on the purchase. The same thing brought down Guy in South Africa, where they sold direct to small operators who didn’t pay up or disappeared into the night.
John
05/04/14 – 09:37
Don’t I remember a section here on OBP about a year ago devoted to the Gilford decker, photos, drawings and all? I’ve searched but can no longer find it.
Here is another picture of GW 713 taken at Madeira Drive at the end of an HCVC London – Brighton Run in the early 1960s. By the 1970s this coach had been repainted into the livery of Evan Evans Tours.
As is with tradition on the south coast of England most open toppers were named, this bus was named “Northumbria” which is a county in the North East of England. All the the other open toppers of the same batch were also called after counties of England, I would be most upset if there wasn”t one called “Yorkshire” as registration CRU 180C was called “Lancashire”. If you know, let me know, please leave a comment. It would appear that all this batch of Bournemouth open top Fleetlines except this one were sold to London Transport for sightseeing duties I wonder why not this one where did it go? If you know, let me know, please leave a comment.
“Yorkshire” was the next bus in the batch, CRU 181C. Wasn’t this livery with the green-edged maroon band much classier than the messy blue and brown daubings on an overall yellow bus which replaced it? But, have you noticed the absolutely miniscule fleet number just above the offside headlamp? These always looked like they’d been done in Letraset and were virtually unreadable at any distance; the previous shaded gold style might have been a bit Olde Worlde but at least they were practical.
David Jones
05/07/11 – 06:40
The names chosen by Bournemouth Corporation for the convertible Fleetlines were a curious bunch. Bournemouth was in “Hampshire” (no 186) in those days of course, and “Dorset” (no 185) was next door. “Warwickshire” (no 182) and “Surrey” (no 189) may have been chosen in honour of the chassis- and body-builders respectively. Many of the town’s summer visitors may have come from “Staffordshire” (no 183), “Cheshire” (no 184), and possibly “Lancashire” (no 180) and “Yorkshire” (no 181), but “Northumberland” (no 188) and “Durham” (no 187) would seem to be pushing it a bit.
Michael Wadman
17/09/11 – 17:29
Mention has been made of the bright green lines outside the maroon bands on BCT buses and trolleybuses. I remember the older brown line, best described as “dark mud brown” (that’s from memory) which had been used previously. I will try to establish when the brown was changed to green, but am not hopeful – my best guess is around 1960 as I seem to remember that the first MF2B trolleybuses had the brown lining when new, although it might have been earlier when the wartime brown roofs were repainted yellow. The open-toppers (in fact convertibles with removable fibreglass roofs) were Bournemouth 180 to 189 CRU180C to CRU189C, and became London DMO class as follows: 182 – DMO1 Stockwell Princess 183 – DMO2 Southern Queen 184 – DMO3 Britannia 185 – DMO4 186 – DMO5 187 – DMO6 189 – DMO7 I will try to find out what happened to the ones that did not go to London.
Bill Nichols
21/11/11 – 09:22
I’m a 40 year old bus enthusiast lifelong resident to Bournemouth. Regards the fate of 180, 181 and 188, obviously CRU180C was preserved in the collection of the Bournemouth Passenger Transport Association 181 and 188 were withdrawn from service in Bournemouth circa spring 1979 and exported to Hong Kong (Source: Transbourne News, circular of BPTA, March 1986) Obviously I have no idea whether 181 and 188 still exist I somehow doubt it, sadly!
Patrick O’Connor
11/12/11 – 07:05
Just to confirm that 181 and 188 no longer exist. According to PSV Circle fleet history on Hong Kong operators, they entered service with Citybus Ltd in 1979; they were among the very first vehicles acquired by Citybus, along with similar, but closed top ex Bournemouth Fleetlines 190-3. By 1984, all six were in use as open toppers on tourist work. They were all withdrawn and scrapped in 1986 (181/8/90/2/3) or 1987 (191). Of those that went to London, 184 subsequently operated for many years for Guide Friday, mainly in Stratford on Avon. Does anyone know if this survives in preservation?
Bob Gell
11/12/11 – 16:06
I have a feeling, Bob, that 184 went to Ensign Bus when they took over Guide Friday and is in store with them. That was the position a few months ago, anyway.
Chris Hebbron
23/02/12 – 12:41
The similarities to the Alexander bodied Fleetlines and Atlanteans we had at Northern General are remarkable, the front panel and windscreen would appear to be to be identical, so who copied who, or was one built under licence to the other?
Ronnie Hoye
23/02/12 – 14:00
Both Newcastle and Leeds had batches of identical bodies on Atlantean chassis. However the Newcastle ones did not have engine bustles and neither operators bought open top versions! I think it may have been Newcastle who were the first customers for this design as it was very similar to their Alexander bodied examples.
Chris Hough
24/02/12 – 07:08
Chris. Newcastle did have two open top Atlanteans, but they were the result of accident damage, both had been involved in arguments with bridges and unsurprisingly in both cases the bridge won. One of them went to Percy Main depot and was used on a Sea Front service operated by Northern on behalf of what was by that time the Tyne and Wear PTE, I think the other vehicle went south of the river and ran from South Shields to Sunderland. I seem to remember that in for the Queens silver Jubilee in 1977 one, or possible both of them were painted silver and had either the Royal Coat of Arms or a Crown on them.
Ronnie Hoye
25/02/12 – 07:25
The answer to “who copied who” is that Weymann optionally put the Alexander front end on to their standard body. Roe did something similar with windscreens but not the dash panel (see www.sct61.org.uk/gy57 ). But whether anyone paid Alexander for the privilege I wouldn’t know.
Peter Williamson
25/02/12 – 08:56
…..but it’s always been the case. East Lancs had their R type clone, but the earliest Alexanders were Leyland (Ribble) and Weymann (Glasgow – and Liverpool?) bodies built under licence. The Leyland Royal Tiger Alexander coach had more than awhiff of the Leyland as well.
David Oldfield
26/04/12 – 06:22
Four of this batch of Fleetlines certainly survived until 2011 – and hopefully still do. 180 and fixed top 197 ex-B’mth Museum are now at the West of England Transport Museum, 187 is in private preservation nr. Southampton and 184 is with Ensign bus. The detachable roofs actually combined the same amount of metal and glass-fibre as the permanent version – only 180 still has one. The first MCW bodies to this style for Bournemouth were built on Atlantean chassis in 1964 (170 survives), the last on similar chassis in 1966 (none remain). Very similar MCW Alexander lookalike bodies were delivered to Newcastle, Leeds and BOAC. It was the inability of MCW to build a further Bournemouth batch in 1968 that led to the genuine Alexander product finally arriving in 1969. Happily the resultant delay allowed the trolleybuses several months stay of execution! The relationship with Alexander then continued for over one hundred buses until 1990! The lining issue is simpler than it seems, a dark olive green was used between yellow and maroon from the first trams until 1962 when it was replaced by lighter shade ‘Buckingham’ green. The first vehicles so painted were the last nine Sunbeam trolleybuses. Future repaints used this colour green although the old scheme could be seen until 1969 – lastly on trolleybus No.280. The description of muddybrown arises because the varnish used in those days to finish off the brush applied paintwork would tend to yellow badly, combining with the olive green to become chocolate in colour – the maroon discolouring to dark chocolate and the yellow oddly brightening with age! The lighter green seemed to escape this process.
mf2b
17/07/13 – 07:00
I can clearly recollect a lengthy article, complete with photographs, in the Bournemouth Evening Echo when these buses were introduced. It mentioned the novel concept of the detachable roofs and the fact that the buses would be in the general-use fleet during the winter months. I wish I still had the clipping! It no doubt survives in the ‘Echo’ archives. The general travelling public would have been probably unaware that they were travelling on a ‘convertible’ in the winter, but the names were a giveaway as the rest of the fleet did not carry any.
Grahame Arnold
04/08/13 – 14:56
I took a few shots on the 29-03-1975 to record the passing of the traditional Bournemouth livery with the 2 red/green bands. Already by this time the rot was setting in, with adverts on the exteriors and the traditional Bournemouth large yellow bus stop signs being replaced with ‘standard’ ones. However, note that the driver is still smartly turned-out, even on a Sunday! AEL177B was one of the 1964 batch from Leyland with Alexander bodywork. They were comfortable buses, but noisier than the ‘CRU’ Fleetlines which followed in 1965.
Grahame Arnold
28/03/15 – 14:33
I know the messages have gone quiet on this. But just on the off-chance that someone reads this that knows the current owners. I’d like to speak to them. This summer these attractive and well designed, comfortable vehicles are/would have been 50 years old. CRU 180C was delivered new on 29/6/65 and 188 on 3/8/65. It would be great if someone knew if one was still roadworthy as I’d like to have a ride on it again?
Geoff Clarke
06/05/15 – 07:17
Geoff, 3 of these survive for sure they are 180, 187 and my 184. E-mail me through this site I can explain further.
Nick Jackson
06/07/15 – 06:36
Buses Magazine September 1983 Issue Page 410 DMO 2 and DMO 5 (CRU 183/6C) exported to California by Ensignbus
David Rawsthorn
20/03/17 – 13:55
As an update, my Bear Cross Bus Company now owns 187 as well as 184. 187 now has a current MOT and it’s due to be repainted at the end of April. All being well it will make an appearance at the Bournemouth Bus Rally in June. Unfortunately it won’t be fully restored though. On the subject of painting, could “mf2b” please advise me what shade the crimson/maroon band should be? I have two thoughts on the subject but can’t decide what the post-1962 lighter shade should be and have nothing to compare against. Thanks.
Nick Jackson
21/03/17 – 06:16
Tim Salter had made quite a lot of progress recently but it’s been a mammoth task to restore it. I believe it might see some new paint this summer but don’t quote me on that!
Nick Jackson
21/03/17 – 08:43
Nick Martyn Hearson at Reliance Bus Works has a history of painting Bournemouth vehicles both for himself and Daniel Shears – he may know.
Roger Burdett
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
18/04/17 – 07:40
I know Martyn and his excellent standard of workmanship. Tim Salter will be painting FEL216 himself, as he retires this summer and will have more time for the project.
Tynemouth and District 1963 Daimler Fleetline CRG6LX Weymann H44/33F
HFT 367, fleet number 267: A Weymann H44/33F bodied Daimler Fleetline CRG6LX. One of 35 delivered to Percy Main between 1963 & 68. The location is the Gibraltar Rock Public House “reflected in the windscreen” this is at the end of Front Street Tynemouth, and was the terminus of the service 11 to Newcastle, a route shared with Newcastle Corporation. The first PDR1/1 Leyland Atlantean at Percy Main entered service in 1960, and by 1962, they had 22. The first nine, CFT 636/644, 236/244, had H44/34F Weymann bodies; the remainder were all H44/34F Roe bodies. DFT 245/249; 245/249 in 1960. FFT 756/761; 256/261 followed in 1962. 236-254 & 5 all carried the Wakefields name. Percy Main had some very punishing and demanding routes, and despite the best efforts of its maintenance staff, the reliability of the early Atlantean’s was always suspect. It’s been mentioned before on this site, about the amount of freedom NGT allowed its subsidiaries with vehicle choice and specification. By 1963, Percy Main had lost patience with the PDR1/1, and the runour mill has it that the first choice would have been front entrance Renowns or PD3’s. Perhaps mindful of the onset of OPO, Northern thought this a step too far, and would not allow it, however, they did allow Percy Main to switch to the CRG6LX Daimler Fleetline. Nevertheless, it would be a further twelve years before the next new Leyland D/D’s arrived at Percy Main, and they were the 1974 Park Royal bodied Leyland AN68. By that time, it was NBC and you took what you were given with no say in the matter. Ironic really, post NBC six Renown’s were transferred to Percy Main from East Yorkshire. The first batch of Fleetlines arrived in 1963, they were HFT 366/375; 266/275, and had H44/33F Weymann bodies. Outwardly, apart from different wheel trims and the absence of badges, they were more or less identical in appearance to the first Atlantean’s. JFT 276/280; 276/280 arrived in 1964, they were H44/32F Weymann bodies, rather than a conventional staircase with two right angles; they had a full sweep descending forwards. I thought this potentially dangerous, and indeed there were several mishaps, especially if for whatever reason the brakes were applied rather harshly when someone was on the staircase. The remainder were Alexander bodied, AFT 783/789C; 283/289 in 1965: DFT 290/292E; 290/292 in 1967; all H44/32F bodies, and EFT 693/702F, 293/302 in 1968, they were H44/33F bodies. As far as I can remember, 283/289 had air operated doors and windscreen wipers, and the remainder were electric, but that apart they were all more or less the same. I left Percy Main in 1975 to join Armstrong Galley, so my experience of the AN68 is limited, and it would be inappropriate of me to comment on them. However, from my own point of view, the Alexander bodied Daimler Fleetline was the best rear engine double deck bus I have ever driven, the Atlantean may have had a greater top speed, but what the Daimler lacked in speed, it more that made up for at the bottom end. They had power to spare, even with a full load; they were never pushed and could easily keep pace with the traffic we had to contend with. The earlier PD2&3 Leylands outlived the first Atlanteans, as for breakdowns, I can count on one hand with figures to spare the amount of times I broke down with a Fleetline, I lost count with the Atlantean.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye
18/09/14 – 07:54
Ronnie mentions the AEC Renowns that came in NBC days. As he says came from East Yorkshire who received a number of Fleetlines from Tynemouth in exchange.
Chris Hough
19/09/14 – 07:04
This Fleetline looks neither full height nor low height. Were these built to an intermediate height of around 14ft?
Chris Barker
20/09/14 – 16:00
Chris, I don’t know the exact height, but if you refer to my gallery of Newcastle bus stations, in the Haymarket section, there is a photo of one of these alongside a United Bristol FLF Lodekka, and they seem to be about the same, but camera angles can be deceptive.
Ronnie Hoye
24/09/14 – 17:35
Thanks for a marvellous photograph of one of my favourite buses in a great location.The photo highlights the excellent standard of maintenance of the Tynemouth and District fleet in the 1960s! gleaming paintwork!
Tom Carr
24/09/14 – 17:36
Manchester Corporation had many Fleetlines and PDR1/2 type Atlanteans with Metro-Cammell bodywork similar to this, (but mostly with curved windscreens) with a height of (if I remember rightly) 14ft and half an inch, i.e. between the normal highbridge and lowbridge heights. These also had a modified staircase to Manchester’s own design. The bottom few steps were at an angle of 45 degrees to the length of the bus. It was claimed that this would “aim” descending passengers to the front of the platform, avoiding the bottleneck which could sometimes occur at the bottom of the stairs. When new these buses also had a substantial handrail on the platform which was supposed to separate upper and lower deck passengers when alighting; in practice this didn’t work because most conductors thought that this handrail was for them to lean on. The rails were later removed. The Manchester buses did, in fact, have a specific place for the conductor to stand, a small section was “cut out” of the luggage shelf above the offside front wheel. The angled staircase also allowed space for a cutaway section in the rear wall of the cab, with a coat hook for the driver’s use. This avoided the perennial problem of coat sleeves flapping outside whenever the cab window was opened. At Rochdale in the mid seventies we had nine of these Fleetlines cascaded from Manchester, they were the best Fleetlines to work on, in my opinion. I wonder if these Tynemouth Fleetlines had these interior features?
Don McKeown
05/10/14 – 07:28
Tynemouth’s Fleetlines certainly didn’t have the 45° lower section of the staircase, the dividing rails or the cutaway section for the conductor to stand. I can’t recall a ‘wardrobe’ and coathook facility in the cab but I think that it would have been unlikely as I gather that it depended on the angled staircase to provide the space. I’m fascinated by this whole ‘Manchester-style’ platform arrangement and I wonder whether anyone has an interior photograph which shows it. Surely Don realises that all rails and stanchions on any bus were installed for the sole purpose of providing the conductor with something to lean against! What other possible function could they have been intended to fulfil? Particularly helpful designs often positioned additional rails so that the conductor could conveniently tuck his/her machine behind when not in use!
Cape Town City Tramways 1949 Daimler CVG6/6 Weymann H70R
I thought you may be interested in this wide radiator Daimler CVG6/6 I think the second six stands for six wheels as it does have three axels. It lies in the James Hall Museum of Transport in Johannesburg, alongside some other interesting British psv’s, including RT 2634. For another shot that shows the two rear axles click on this link //www.jhmt.org.za/
Photograph and Copy contributed by Victor Brumby
09/11/11 – 18:36
Are we sure that it’s a CVG6? The only reason I ask is that it appears to have the same radiator grill used on CD650s (with the big Daimler engine). I don’t have any reference books on South African vehicles so perhaps the customer just specified the CD650 type radiator to aid cooling in the hot climate.
Neville Mercer
09/11/11 – 22:01
It looks like Victor is correct in describing this magnificent vehicle as a CVG6/6. I have come across this website written by a Mr David Jones (but beware of irritating pop-ups on the pages), which has the following interesting insight; //www.freewebs.com/citytramway/index.htm “Undoubtedly amongst the most impressive buses I have ever seen were the twenty 3 axle Daimler CVG6/6 double-deckers with Weymann 64 seat bodywork delivered in 1949. They worked the northern routes to Bellville and Kuils River “ proposed trackless tram extensions – and made a most impressive sight as they rounded the Parade with their deep throated Gardner engines and fluid flywheels. Unlike the other Daimlers, these beauties were fitted with wide radiators, normally associated with Daimler’s CD650 model, thus adding to their aura of power and size. The chassis was essentially Daimler’s trolleybus chassis and along with thirty Guys built for Johannesburg from 1958, they were the only traditional three axle British half-cabs built after World War Two. Coming from a sober, God fearing home, I had my opportunities to ride these buses to and from Sunday school picnics. It almost made all that singing and praying worthwhile. As an aside, I am probably the only Welshman to be kicked out of a church choir for not being able to sing. A CVG6/6 has been preserved in Johannesburg’s James Hall Museum of Transport”.
Paul Haywood
10/11/11 – 17:12
A wonderful posting of a Cape Town City Daimler CVG6/6 at the James Hall Museum of Transport in Johannesburg. I visited this museum in October and noted the Daimler is now exhibited in the main hall so is more difficult to photograph but I did manage to get part of the Cape Town 1935 Ransomes/Weymann D4 trolleybus and a small part of this Daimler CVG6/6 which I have posted here for interest.
I have found all the links most interesting and many thanks to Victor, Neville and Paul.
Richard Fieldhouse
11/11/11 – 13:15
Regarding 3 axle Daimlers, it is interesting to note that Leicester ordered a batch in 1939 to complement their fleet of Renowns. Unfortunately enemy action laid this order to rest, but what magnificent machines they would have been! Gardner 6LW engined COG6/6s Perhaps the Capetown buses had the CD650 type of radiator to distinguish them from the front as 6 wheelers (?)
This Exeter City Daimler half cab is more than 60 years old, so even older than me, and is owned by John Handford and based near Solihull in the West Midlands. I’m fortunate to be able to navigate for John on this bus and he has taken it to the Kingsbridge 7ft 6in running day, events in Exeter and the trans Pennine run to name but a few. It has a genuine Exeter City destination blind and letters so in 2009 we took the bus to Exeter and met up with a former Exeter City conductor who worked on such buses and knew all the routes and stops. Here are two of the pictures I took during the tour around the villages near Exeter. The first on the way back from Upton Pyne at the junction drivers would stop at if passengers wanted to get on or off. The second is crossing the narrow bridge near the village of Bramford Speke. Visibility for navigating is not ideal, and communicating with John over the engine noise, it has an original Daimler engine, can be limited to reaching out to touch his left or right shoulder. A sister vehicle is preserved at Winkleigh and they were together for the Exeter Nocturnal event in 2011. It’s a long trip from the West Midlands to Devon – some 6 hours – an endurance test for John as the driver but also for me as the passenger. Nice vehicle though and full of character, you can sense all the ladies of the villages talking to each other about the latest news whilst they were travelling to and from the City with their groceries.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ken Jones
06/05/12 – 16:59
Thank you Ken… this has to be one of the best bus photographs that I’ve seen, and it evokes happy memories of times long past, not only working as a rural bus driver, but of a time when the pace of ordinary life was more moderate…
Norman Long
07/05/12 – 09:23
I agree completely Norman – at Samuel Ledgard’s we had four Exeter Corporation Daimler CVD6/Brush double deckers which had their own very special “atmosphere.” JFJ 50/51/52/55 were superbly appointed dignified vehicles full of real “quality” and even sported fascinating offside rear corner chrome bumpers which gave a lovely “pre 1948” touch. Ledgard policy was to equip all second hand purchases with powerful “KL” box type heaters – two under the lower saloon seats and one under the front nearside seat upstairs. As is well known, the large Daimler engines tended to run very hot, and I can honestly say that even in the cruellest of Winter days I’ve known passengers to plead for the heaters to be turned down or off, so effective were they. What happy days those were – and I’m saying this without a pair of rose tinted glasses anywhere to be seen.
Chris Youhill
07/05/12 – 19:16
Next Saturday [14th May] there is an event in Coventry celebrating 100 years of CCT. Some 30 vintage buses will be at former Sandy Lane depot, where the reserve transport museum collection will be open. Some of these buses including JFJ 873 will be operating a shuttle service to the Transport Museum. There will also be a cavalcade of the buses including JFJ 873 at around 16.00
Ken
08/05/12 – 07:20
So, there’s an opportunity for someone in the Coventry area to bag a recording of a CVD6 for the Old Bus Sounds page – any takers?
Stephen Ford
08/05/12 – 07:26
Ken…I think you may have intended to say next Saturday May 12th. Just in case anybody gets mixed up and misses your day!
Richard Leaman
08/05/12 – 10:47
Ken Jones might be interested in the attached pictures of Exeter’s EFJ 666, Leyland Tiger TS8 Cravens B32R. I took the photos at the Gloucester Steam Fair, South Cerney in 2011. This was new in 1938, no less, and was the oldest bus present on the day. It looked and sounded wonderful despite its years
Les Dickinson
08/05/12 – 12:10
Exeter 66 had a role in the film ‘Remains of the Day’ with some very evocative night shots as Emma Thompson boards the bus.
Chris Hough
09/05/12 – 08:04
Yes I meant Saturday May 12th – thanks for pointing out the error
Ken
09/05/12 – 08:05
Did the rear offside seats on any of these single-deckers extend to the very back of the bus, possible because the platform would be split into two steps. The earliest of LGOC/London Transport’s T’s did, until most, but not all, were modified to front entrance. One, T31, is preserved in original condition and, as a rear passenger, I would have felt very insecure, I feel, when going around a right-hand bend!
Chris Hebbron
05/09/12 – 08:42
Thanks for the wonderful old photo’s. I drove these buses also the Guys & the Leyland PD2’s from 1963 to when Exeter City Corporation merged with Devon General, best years of my life. Great to see these old friends being preserved so well. My uniform was donated to the Winkiegh Museum.
Tony Comley
11/09/12 – 05:30
By the time that the last edition of the West of England BBF came out around 1966, the existence of half-a-dozen half-cabs as the only single-deckers in the fleet of Exeter City Transport was already of sufficient curiosity to be remarked upon. For several years during the ‘nineties, sister vehicle JFJ 875 (Exeter 175) was in the care of Carmel Coaches for operation on Dartmoor Rover summer Sunday service 174 between Okehampton and Moretonhampstead, seen at the latter on a rather damp 3rd August 1997. Unfortunately 175’s body wasn’t entirely Dartmoor-weatherproof by this time and a game of musical bus seats usually took place when the rain started.
Michael Wadman
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
21/10/17 – 10:40
In reply to some 5 year old messages! When the Dartmoor Sunday service 174 started, for the first few years the vehicle and the crew were provided by WETC (i.e. Colin Shears). I travelled one Sunday when the bus was driven by Paul Tucker and the conductor was Colin’s son Dan. Something which just showed how things which one generation takes for granted is completely foreign to the next; Dan was born around 1974 and it was apparent that, growing up in Bideford, he had never set eyes on a bus conductor. When the bus came to a stop, Dan would stand at the top of the steps and collect the fares as the passengers boarded – just like an omo bus driver which is what he would have been familiar with. Anyone who went on the bus for a nostalgic trip where the conductor came round and collected the fares after you had sat down must have been a bit disappointed. In reply to Chris Hebron’s question, the Exeter Leyland s/d’s of the 1930’s had open platforms at the rear. The whole layout is basically exactly as a normal double decker except that the offside of the platform on 66 and its sisters where the stairs would usually be, was occupied by some shelves for parcels. So far as I know, the JFJ Daimler s/ds were always front entrance.
After years of handling crash gearboxed Bristols and latterly Crossleys, Rotherham Corporation’s drivers probably had mixed feelings about being presented with their first preselectors in the form of these 1955 Daimler CVG6’s. In certain respects physically easier to drive than what had gone before, they would have had that unfortunate tendency to occasionally kick back through the gearchange pedal if the driver forgot himself (or herself, as I believe the Department was unusual at the time in employing a woman driver – have I got that right?) and tried to ride the pedal like a clutch, or did not press it firmly to the floor with confidence – likely to cause a painful injury to the ankle, shin or knee. The body was Weymann’s much more pleasantly proportioned (in my opinion) alternative to the plain Metro Cammell Orion – in this case in its lowbridge form. Photographed at Rotherham’s Rawmarsh Road depot in 1968, it was withdrawn in 1971.
At first glance, it looks like the Swindon/Thamesdown livery (to me but my eyesight isn’t perfect!). Is it the film, the processing or the lighting? We’ve followed that route elsewhere on this site. Nice view, John!
Pete Davies
01/03/13 – 06:09
Known as the Aurora, this was far more well known as a four bay high-bridge design and, certainly by 1955, 8′ wide. This made these unusual in several respects. CVG6s figured in Rotherham orders for a good ten years – with mostly Roe, but also some more Weymann bodies. [I have not had the experience but always thought the pre-selectors with the kick back were the spring operated versions. Were these late pre-selectors spring or air operated?]
David Oldfield
01/03/13 – 06:10
John, Rotherham did have female drivers in the post war period. I can remember an article in the Daily Mirror in the late sixties about the ladies concerned . One of these Daimlers is now preserved at the South Yorkshire Transport Museum.
Chris Hough
01/03/13 – 08:11
Strictly, not, Chris. It’s a 1954 high-bridge…..
David Oldfield
01/03/13 – 11:33
Sheffield city centre, and immediate surrounds, used to see such a wonderful variety of liveries including this Rotherham example, the old & new Doncaster, Tracky, West Riding, Sheffield United Tours, Mexborough & Swinton, East Midland’s chocolate, biscuit and cream, (later replaced by their dark red/maroon) Wigmore blue and grey, Chesterfield’s rich dark green and cream, not to mention the plethora of independent coach operators, each with instantly identifiable colours. What a tragic shame that all were washed away by either the PTE or National blandness. Sheffield’s own livery was, of course, my personal favourite. Thankfully, users of this site keep posting nostalgia! Keep ’em coming.
Les Dickinson
01/03/13 – 11:34
What exactly was Rotherham’s requirement for lowbridge vehicles? They seem to have had a mixed fleet and towards the end of their separate existence, the lowbridge or low height contingent diminished, so were the offending bridges removed? I’m in complete agreement about the pleasant proportions, this style was a nice alternative to the Orion, particularly in lowbridge form.
Chris Barker
01/03/13 – 11:34
The livery looks about right, Pete although the cream could be lighter and the blue royaller. They also went in for Arriva-style “swerves” with the cream at the front, but probably thought these tin-fronts swervy enough.
Joe
01/03/13 – 13:47
You’re so right Les, we lost a lot with coffee, cream and white. Lots of roads were dropped under bridges to allow more headroom for full height vehicles. Interesting, though, that Rotherham had these splendid vehicles at almost the same time as Sheffield had their monstrous low-bridge Orion Regent IIIs. What a difference a few months can make. Just had a cataract operation, Pete/Joe. Boy what a difference in colours with “new eyes”. That could also be a factor.
David Oldfield
01/03/13 – 13:48
I well remember my first sighting of one of these, when brand new 124 showed up one Sunday afternoon on the route running through our Rotherham housing estate, which had no requirement for lowbridge buses at all, and was normally handled by Crossleys. I was seven at the time, and was so amazed by it, that I persuaded my father to take me for a ride to Canklow and back on one the following weekend, just so I could sample one of the new buses. At the time, Rotherham needed lowbridge buses on the 33 to Treeton and the 19 service to Dinnington, joint with East Midland, but these Daimlers quite often appeared on the workers services to Templeborough (70) and the 17 to ‘Yorkshire Engine Company’! With respect to the pre-selector gearboxes, I do recall a piece in the local Rotherham paper in the early 60’s, reporting on the fact that at least a couple of accidents had been attributed to driver inexperience with the gearbox controls, the vehicles in question having suddenly jumped ahead while stationery, one I believe knocking down a pedestrian on a zebra crossing. There were questions asked at the time about the necessity for more extensive driver training etc. I presume the pre-selectors would have been considered a lot easier to master by the drivers who were having to be retrained from trolleybus work, as a fair number of them would have moved over to the buses when the Maltby conversion took place in 1954, utilising the highbridge version of the same chassis shown here. Rotherham’s only woman driver of the period, Winifred Hallam, wouldn’t have had any trouble with the pre-selectors I’m sure; she was licensed to drive trams, trolleybuses and motor buses, the only woman in the country to hold that distinction, so I understand. Three lowbridge Leyland TD7’s were purchased as a stopgap measure from Chesterfield Corporation in 1956, whilst delivery of three Roe bodied CVG6’s was awaited. These were already at the end of their lives, and quickly disappeared as soon as the trio of new Daimlers arrived the following year.
Dave Careless
02/03/13 – 07:21
Glad your operation was both successful and a revelation, David O!
Chris Hebbron
02/03/13 – 07:22
In answer to your question about gearboxes, David, the answer is spring-operated, if it had a kick-back. For once, this is a type of transmission I’m thankful I’ve never needed to contend with! By 1955 an AEC with preselect could certainly be considered ‘late’ since the Regal IV & Regent III were just about to be superseded by the Reliance & Regent V – which featured Monocontrol, if they weren’t manual. For a Daimler, however. I’m pretty sure that preselects remained available in the CVG6 range right up to the end of production in 1968/9. As to when spring-operated gearboxes gave way to air-operated (on Daimlers) I’ve always assumed it was the late 1950s, but I may be corrected on that.
David Call
02/03/13 – 09:22
Thanks, Chris, for your good wishes. Thanks, David, re pre-selects – although I am aware that late Daimlers had moved from pre-select to semi-auto control. [Huddersfield and the route 72 Leeds models spring to mind.] Whether anyone opted for pre-selectors after this time, I wouldn’t like to say. Spent a delightful day with an ex Morecambe 9612E a year or two ago but have also driven many miles with Scania Comfort-shift coaches – which you drive “as a pre-selector”. […..even though it’s a synchromesh box.]
David Oldfield
02/03/13 – 14:06
I believe Northampton’s Daimlers retained pre-selector boxes right up to the last batch delivered in 1968.
Eric Bawden
02/03/13 – 14:06
My recollection is that all of Derby Corporation’s Daimler CVG6’s were pre-selectors – from the initial 10 with Park Royal bodywork (115-124, i.e. KRC115-125) supplied in 1957 to the very last Roe-bodied ones supplied in 1966 (185-189, i.e. KRC185-189D). I am not sure whether the gear change layout correlates with spring versus air-operated change, but I distinctly remember that all of these had an H-gate selector under the left-hand side of the steering wheel (like the AEC Regent), rather than the quadrant under the right hand side, as on the CVD6 (and I think the earlier COG5).
Stephen Ford
02/03/13 – 14:07
David, I have established beyond reasonable doubt that preselects were available on CVG6s up to the end of production, since the very last ones (for Northampton) were themselves preselect. One thing of which I was certainly not aware (and which came as a big surprise) was the fact that these last apparently featured spring-operated gearboxes, and vacuum brakes. So not only were preselects available to the end of production, spring-operated ones were (as well as, presumably, air-operated ones). Northampton were certainly not alone in continuing to specify preselect gearboxes, I do know that the three CVG6LX-30s delivered to Swindon in 1967 were preselect – one of these, 145 (JAM 145E), I believe continues as a heritage vehicle with Swindon’s successor, Thamesdown Transport. I would be very surprised if there were not other operators who specified preselects to the end, simply because preselects were what they were accustomed to. As you say, semi-auto certainly became the norm in later years – I think they were probably available from the start of CVG6-30 production, c1956.
David Call
03/03/13 – 07:51
Thanks for putting me right Eric, Stephen and David.
David Oldfield
03/03/13 – 07:51
PMT’s 30 CVG5 of 1956 were vacuum braked with spring operated gear change. I only got my ankle wrapped round the driver’s seat once – that was enough!! Their sole CVD6-30 of 1958 was air braked with semi automatic gear change. If the bus was vacuum braked then the gear change would have to be spring operated – no air system for any other type of operation.
Ian Wild
03/03/13 – 07:52
There were three types of selector used on Daimler CVs, but they didn’t quite correspond to the three gearbox options. The quadrant was only used with the spring-operated preselector gearbox and vacuum brakes, and was replaced by the H-gate (with horizontal lever) in the mid-1950s. This was used with both spring-operated and air-operated preselector gearboxes, the former with vacuum brakes and the latter with air. The third option was the Daimatic (direct-acting semi-automatic) transmission, which used an H-gate with vertical lever, as on the Fleetline, with air brakes obviously. All three transmission options were eventually available on the 27ft CVG6; the CVG6-30 could have either of the two air-braked options, while the humble CVG5 was only ever available with the spring-operated preselector and vacuum brakes.
Peter Williamson
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
21/03/13 – 17:24
I seem to remember preselector gearboxes on AEC IIIs in Sheffield in the 50s. With so many “vertical streets” in Sheffield. it was hard to set off on a hill start with a bus full & a crash gearbox. On the route I used to travel most, the 34 Graves Park & 35 Hollythorpe Rise, the crash boxed buses would have to set off in 1st gear, then by the time they tried to get 2nd selected, the bus had come to a stop! They then had to go back to 1st gear & repeat the process. The AEC were the standard for these routes with different coachwork of Northern Coachworks, Weymann & possibly Cravens on the 33 route, Hemsworth. Hemsworth is one of the highest parts in Sheffield with a watertower to supply our water. We also had the 36 Heeley Green at rush hours, they all took the same hilly route as far as Heeley Green. Could my memory be right on the preselectors?
Andy Fisher
Forgot to add, at most of the terminus, they had water with watering cans, for the driver to top them up when they were boiling, Many times they would still be boiling, coming down the hills to the city centre, so they must have got very hot.
22/03/13 – 07:53
1947 – 1950 all Regent IIIs were (air operated) pre-select. The PD2s were manual but from 1952 all Regent IIIs and Vs were synchromesh until 1963. From 1957 PD2s/PD3s had the new “semi-crash” box. These latter were the biggest culprits in the “will they, won’t they” hill start when full stakes.
David Oldfield
22/03/13 – 07:56
Scroll down, Andy, to 5/11/12 on the link below and the photo will show a familiar sight! www.old-bus-photos.co.uk/
West Bromwich (County Borough of) Transport Dept 1952 Daimler CVG6 Weymann H30/26R
Actually pictured during their final West Midlands P.T.E. days – though there is little here to suggest it – this fine pair of former West Bromwich Corporation Daimler CVG6’s with traditionally shaped Weymann H30/26R bodywork was caught taking an off-peak rest at the town’s depot on 10th August, 1971. What a superb livery it was, and just imagine how superior a modern Gemini double decker would look in the same style, compared to the more usual stripes, swoops and general garishness.
For vehicles nineteen years old these two impeccable and seemingly unblemished beauties in a classic livery are a real tribute to the manufacturer and to both operators. I agree entirely John with your triple condemnations of the modern Gemini appearance, and that of other brands too, and would add a fourth – seemingly appalling standards of construction. I would far rather take a long journey in one of the Daimlers than in any of the current offerings which routinely display more rattles and body movement after nineteen days than the old troopers would do after the same number of years – and I say that with not a trace of “rose tinted glasses.”
Chris Youhill
05/05/13 – 18:58
Another GEA registered Daimler is seen on its way to Aberystwyth, well outside its comfort zone! It was hired by the West Midlands Transport Circle, Easter Monday 1973.
Not quite a Gemini, but this is what a Metrobus looked like in West Brom’s livery.
Tony Martin
05/05/13 – 19:02
The body design looks right, the livery looks right. The combination looks right. Thank you, John, for posting.
Pete Davies
05/05/13 – 19:03
Although the majority of modern “liveries” look like something concocted by Dali after a night on the absinthe the recent repainting of a Wright bodied Volvo of First South Yorkshire into Sheffield livery shows that the bus can look good if the right colours are applied in the right proportions. Sadly there are too many in the industry today who see their services in terms of “product” and not public service. Consequently we are at the mercy of the marketing men who probably never catch a bus and lack the aesthetic insight into making the built environment pleasant for everybody. Sadly First’s “refreshed livery” is now so wishy washy as to lack any impact at all
Chris Hough
05/05/13 – 19:04
West Bromwich had a wonderful livery, the bottom not being unlike B’ham Corp’n, but the lighter blue at the top contrasted beautifully. Sad to say, at the time I was sculling around B’ham, in the mid-50’s, my glimpses of them showed too may of their buses looked rather sad in faded liveries.
Chris Hebbron
06/05/13 – 08:29
Well said, Mr Hough! It isn’t just the livery and the standard of production of the modern bus that is a problem. I was on one of WORST’s buses in Gosport recently. A lady in a wheelchair boarded, with assistance, but it was very difficult to move into the (nearside) marked space because of a grab rail. Had the designated wheelchair space been offside, there would have been little difficulty. The grab rail has to be where it is, apparently, because it helps to hold the roof up!
Pete Davies
06/05/13 – 08:30
I’m glad you posted the Heritage-painted Metrobus, Tony, because I recalled it after my earlier post and how smart the livery looked on a modern ‘box’. I think that several WM buses went back into their original constituent liveries at this time – mid 1990’s?
Chris Hebbron
06/05/13 – 08:31
Putting on my tin hat am I not correct in saying that some of the “stripes, swoops and general garishness” are designed by Ray Stenning, the Editor of Classic Bus. magazine.
Paragon
06/05/13 – 08:32
Thank you Pete and Chris H x 2 – its reassuring to see that, despite the modern regrettable trend, conservative appreciation of real quality and dignity in appearance is still alive and well !!
Chris Youhill
06/05/13 – 08:33
A fine livery indeed, and I’m surprised that they managed to survived into the Wumpty era. However, I’m puzzled by the reference to them having a traditional-shaped Weymann body. For me, the traditional flared-skirted Weymanns seemed to have slightly drooping eyelids (to use a technical term) caused by the louvers over the upper deck front windows. These admittedly fine looking buses lack this feature and seem to be a precursor of the Orion style of upper front windows – or have I had one too many glasses of Rioja?
Paul Haywood
06/05/13 – 11:32
When I referred to these bodies being ‘traditionally shaped’ I did not mean to suggest that they possessed exactly the features of the earlier Weymann design to which Paul refers, but just that in a general sense they were traditionally well proportioned, shapely and tasteful, as opposed to boxlike, slab-sided and ugly – as so many bodies of the period were becoming. If anything, the shape of the front domes remind me more of the Metro-Cammell ‘Phoenix’ design as supplied to Manchester and Salford. But then just to show how fickle and contrary my opinions can be, I realise I also have a certain peculiar liking for some of the boxlike, slab-sided and ugly buses too – certain Orions (in the right livery) for example, even Bridgemasters, and I really liked the Park Royal-bodied Renown. So I suppose I’ve now blown any credibility I had with Chris Y! (but remember Ledgard’s ex-Devon General Regents Chris – you know you liked them).
John Stringer
06/05/13 – 17:27
Please fear not John – your 100% credibility remains untainted at that commendably high rating !! I did indeed admire the two Devon General Regents, PDV 726/732, although sadly I never worked on them as they were always based at Armley headquarters. It would have been nice to encounter one which was just possible in only two circumstances. On Mondays to Fridays Otley depot operated one return journey with an Armley vehicle – the 4.25pm Ilkley – Guiseley – Leeds and 5.27pm Leeds – Guiseley – Ilkley. The crafty purpose of this little exercise was to facilitate the running into the correct depot of each vehicle on the route late at night. One other remote possibility occurred on Saturdays, when an Otley depot crew took an Armley Depot Leeds – Otley – Ilkley bus from Otley to Ilkley and back while the Leeds crew had a forty minute meal break. All clever stuff, but I never encountered a “Devonian” while working these trips, but here is picture of one at West Park, Leeds from an unusual angle.
Chris Youhill
07/05/13 – 07:38
Yes, Paragon, most do come from Ray Stenning. Have you ever encountered him?
Pete Davies
07/05/13 – 07:38
Chris Hough. Have just returned from a weekend with family and friends in Sheffield. Both the tram and the bus liveried Wrights buses look superb – but this was also my first experience of the new Worst Bus livery. It’s atrocious – looks like it’s been painted in primer and then left there! The West Bromwich Daimlers are a modified form of the original Aurora – cf Sheffield and Rotherham on this forum, not to mention the famous Rochdale Regent Vs. The Aurora kept the structure and shape of the classic Weymann but with different detailing – including aluminium window pans. John, you are almost certainly correct in saying that the domes comes from the Met-Camm Phoenix. I think that these were the only Weymanns delivered to West Brom, all others ostensibly Met-Camm. (I think it was a capacity problem that led to Addlestone getting the contract but, as a result, there were several Met-Camm details.) I’m with you on the Orion, John. Sheffield, St Helens and DG had liveries which could lift the Orion from the mundane. Seems Ledgard also knew how to apply the paint as well.
David Oldfield
07/05/13 – 14:04
PS: I think some late Orions for West Bromwich were sub-contracted out because of capacity problems at Met-Camm. I believe Strachans did the work and also built some Metropolitan coaches (on sub-contract) on Ford R192 chassis. A little later, the same happened again when Saunders-Roe (still existing, but dormant in bus building at the time) built, or finished, some Met-Camm Atlanteans for Devon General (G reg.). This came about because Saunders-Roe, by then, were owned by Cammell-Laird. It was suggested in the recent second part of the Weymann story (Senior/Venture) that this was because of serious mis-calculation at Birmingham who thought that closing Weymann’s in 1966 would remove overcapacity only then to find that they were struggling to cope with orders a year or two later.
David Oldfield
07/05/13 – 14:05
Been away all weekend and just seen this thread. Weren’t the West Brom bodies 7 ft 6 in versions of the Phoenix? As to the First Bus scheme, it generally looks dreadful but, for the first time I saw their ADL Enviro 400s in Manchester and it seems to work in fact I’d say it suits them.
Phil Blinkhorn
08/05/13 – 15:13
Pete. Never met Ray Stenning but I have seen his photograph on Google. I just find it ironical. Good magazine though and improved under his editorship.
Paragon
08/05/13 – 17:38
I had several dealings with Ray Stenning of “Best Impressions” in my time at LCBS. He regularly turned up, appropriately bearded and garbed, on his Harley Davidson motorcycle. In the final years of NBC, when I was briefly TM at LCBS South East, I devised a new name for the new company – Kentish Bus – and a new livery of maroon and cream. My MD, with whom I had a less than cordial relationship, insisted that Ray Stenning be brought in on the act, and he added additional narrow stripes midway along the panelling, which, though attractive, added to the coach painting costs. This livery won a prize from the Commercial Motor magazine, an event that my MD graciously attended and accepted. I discovered all this later when I read about it in the magazine. Such was life at the end of NBC – anything went in the tawdry scramble for a foothold in the forthcoming privatised “future” of the bus industry. Interestingly, after I had left, when Kentish Bus was sold off to Proudmutual (aka Northumbria, part of United Auto) who installed their own management, the livery reverted to my original scheme. Plus ca change, plus c’est la meme chose. Ray Stenning later took over the editorship of Classic Bus magazine from Gavin Booth (after a short period with another editor) and immediately changed the appearance from black print on white paper to one of coloured type against a half tone photographic background. After subscribing to the magazine for several years, I found the new format unreadable without acquiring a headache, and cancelled. All around us now, and not just in the bus industry, we see practicality subordinated to “design”. As Shakespeare said centuries ago, what we need is “More matter with less art”.
Roger Cox
09/05/13 – 07:47
At least if there’s a war the First buses are already in camouflage! try spotting one after dark. Prior to Yorkshire Rider being sold to Badgerline each district had a bus in traditional livery with the strapline proud of our heritage this included erstwhile West Yorkshire and York city service vehicles. Marketing people always see things in terms of penetration of brand however in an industry where there is often no direct competition why not acknowledge the local nature of the service and make the local population feel its their service and they are not seen as a necessary evil who reacts in a way that only humans can awkwardly oddly and just plain humanly!
Chris Hough
09/05/13 – 07:57
Roger, l lived in East Sussex at the time and commuted regularly to Croydon as well as Central London. The Kentish Bus livery was clean, modern, attractive and sat well on both Routemaster and Atlantean bodies and came as a welcome innovation in the land of red and green, especially the NBC green. Congratulations on your colour sense and the layout.
Phil Blinkhorn
09/05/13 – 08:30
David – As well as the Devon General Atlanteans, weren’t some Brighton PD3s also bodied/ finished by Cammell Laird? I have attached my photo of a Ford R192 bodied by Strachan. Until quite recently, I thought it was a genuine Metro Cammell, but now know better! GUR889G was seen at Weston super Mare in July 1974, when it was operated by Crown Tours, Frome.
Bob Gell
09/05/13 – 09:41
Thanks for that, and the splendid picture. Pity it has such a big mouth. What would more attention to detail have done to the overall look?
David Oldfield
09/05/13 – 09:42
Roger – I can say in a very brief few words how I entirely admire and agree with your comments above. I am totally sick to the back teeth of how the “marketing” fraternity have inflicted their zany “supermarket” branding disease on the bus industry and have turned all the nicely designed horizontally travelling vehicles into mobile graffiti studios. A minority of honourable and proud operators have courageously bucked the trend and retained some dignity – just to cite a couple of examples, the glorious DELAINE of Bourne and PENNINE of Skipton. I’d better put up the shutters now, before a missile emblazoned with “Best Impressions” heads this way !!
Chris Youhill
09/05/13 – 11:46
An impression is when you press hard and leave your mark. Well Mr Best has certainly done that. Can’t come up with a pithy one like “Worst Bus” – unless you will accept “Deep Depressions”?
David Oldfield
10/05/13 – 06:35
“Deep depressions” accepted unconditionally David – that’s pithy enough for me !!
Chris Youhill
03/12/14 – 16:22
West Brom – probably the most agreeable bus livery of all time, with City of Brum a close second!
Phil T
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
24/03/18 – 10:59
We have an Annual ‘Local Heritage Week’ at the Christian Heritge Centre in Rowley, near Blackheath (West Midlands). We try to have a lot of old photos and books on a certain subject, this year, the focus being on ‘Transport’. We are looking for any pictures of public transport – in your case, buses, that would be local to the area over the past 50-70 years. I notice one or two pictures of West Bromwich buses on your site, and wondered if you could give me details of who to contact re: copyright….or if someone on your site could help us in any way…….
