St Helens Corporation 1957 AEC Regent V MD3RV Weymann H33/28R
The letter in front of the fleet number denotes the transport committees sanctions codes for new vehicles, I think I have seen this before with another operator but who just slips my mind at the time of writing. I am not quite sure as to why it is used unless it is a way of dating the vehicles. The strange thing is that it was only used on their double deckers mind you when this shot was taken in the summer of 64 St Helens corporation only had 4 single deck vehicles. Three AEC Reliance Marshall bodied buses and rather strange for a corporation fleet a Leyland Leopard L2 centre entrance Duple Britannia coach. Not quite sure what that was used for, school children to the swimming pool perhaps or for private hire, they would not of been the first municipality to go down that road.
H or L often meant High or Low bridge? Some municipalities would have coaches to take civic parties on tours of inspection- eg the planning committee!
Joe
It’s been said before, and it’s still true. In the right livery, the Orion could be a handsome beast. This is an excellent example. [So is an STD Orion!]
David Oldfield
In this colour scheme, being light on the top half, the whole vehicle looks balanced and attractive. And the rear wheel spats give a touch of class!
Chris Hebbron
Sheffield had the (in)famous 9000 WB, a Reliance/Roe Dalesman C37C – for the use of the Transport Committee but available for Private Hire. It was alleged that this was bought “because Leeds had one” – but I do not know whether this was true. Salford had a late (1962) Weymann Fanfare/Reliance which became an airport coach after SELNEC took over. It replaced a Daimler CVD6/Burlingham – both originally committee coaches. The St Helens Leopard was a 1962 Motor Show exhibit and is pictured in Doug Jack’s book “Leyland Bus”.
David Oldfield
You’ve hit the nail squarely on the head David. In the right livery the Orion could indeed be a handsome beast. In this neck of the woods Samuel Ledgard operated four ex-South Wales AEC Regent Vs and an ex-Tyneside Leyland Titan PD2 with such bodies, and they looked a treat in Sammie’s blue and grey livery. The Regents were somewhat spartan inside mind you, but they had the most beautifully raucous exhaust note to compensate. Following Ledgard’s takeover by West Yorkshire in 1967, the AECs were numbered DAW1-4 and later allocated to Harrogate depot. My brother and I would deliberately walk from our usual stop in Bilton, to the one at the top of King Edward’s Drive, just for the sheer pleasure of catching one into town (and obviously back!!). They were generally to be found on the 1/2 Bachelor Gardens-Woodlands and the 9 New Park-Oatlands services, which suited us just fine. At the time I had a morning paper round, and so was also treated to the glorious sound of them barking their way up Bachelor Gardens or the Hill Tops just after seven each morning. Fabulous!
Brendan Smith
DAW 1 – 4 were indeed vehicles full of character Brendan. DAW 2, MCY 408, was the first Ledgard vehicle to be painted in West Yorkshire colours quite soon after the takeover. Along with all the AECs it was initially allocated to Otley and while working the last journey home at 22:35 from Cookridge Street it failed at the Gaumont Cinema (as was). It was taken to Roseville Road and treated to a mechanical wash with a vengeance – being 14’6″ inches high it fouled the washing machine and suffered a damaged front roof dome, it was quickly repaired and became the first red “Sammy’s” double decker since G.F.Tate’s WN 4759 in 1943.
Chris Youhill
20/11/11 – 07:30
The Leyland Leopard L2 coach was number 200 (SDJ 162). On October 9th 1965, I had booked to go, as a Liverpool fan, to Old Trafford to see Liverpool play Manchester United. My friends and I went by bus from Huyton down to Lime Street as we had booked on Crown Tours of Liverpool to get to Old Trafford. I had a pleasant surprise to find that our coach was SDJ 162, on hire to Crown. However we lost 2-0 to goals from Best and Law, so the coach remained the highlight of the day. It was later part exchanged against Bedford VAM 201 (KKU 77F) and was not traced after that.
Dave Farrier
20/11/11 – 13:35
David Oldfield mentions above the fact that Sheffield had a coach because Leeds had one. Leeds first coach was a 1965 AEC Reliance with a Roe body based on the Roe bodied AEC Reliance service buses bought at around the same time It was numbered 10 ANW 710C and was bought for private hire it went into preservation but its current whereabouts are unknown. Just before the PTE took over a trio of Plaxton bodied Leyland Leopards were also purchased numbered 21-23 MUG 21L etc
Chris Hough
20/11/11 – 14:44
Chris. How interesting – since the Sheffield one predated your Leeds one by about seven years. The story mangled the facts a bit, evidently. As a matter of fact, I actually drove 10 when it was owned by Classic Coaches of High Wycombe on a private hire from Reading to Lord’s Cricket Ground, London, and back. It was of Classics original fleet of four (including a West Riding Dalesman, a “Brown Bomber” Harrington and a Royal Blue MW/ECW). Mr Crowther then grew too quickly and went pop – after which I lost track of his vehicles. A lot of the interesting ones found further homes in preservation – it is to be hoped that the three Reliances above were among them.
David Oldfield
22/11/11 – 07:27
David This posting proves what a small world it is! I went to secondary school with David Crowther and later worked with his wife. Like many enthusiasts I think he let his heart rule his head despite training as an accountant
Chris Hough
22/11/11 – 09:16
Small world indeed. A very nice man – but not a successful operator – but I know a number of “professional” operators who would fit this bill as well. [I also know a number of the latter who run the ship with military precision but are thoroughly unpleasant people to work for!] PS David had a cracking pair of Leyland engined REs as well!
David Oldfield
13/07/12 – 06:10
I went to school on this vehicle. If I remember I think the Letter in the fleet number was related to the registration number. A DDJ bus would be D### and K199 was a KDJ registration.
Geoff Atherton
14/07/12 – 18:09
To pick up a point raised in the original post, about “sanction codes” in front of fleet-numbers: the ten AEC Regent Vs delivered to Bradford Corporation Transport in November 1962 (126-135) carried the code “A” – they were the only vehicles so to do. These vehicles had been ordered in March 1961. John Wake, GM at St. Helen’s, had been appointed GM at Bradford in March 1961 . . . but left for Nottingham in July 1962. This innovation didn’t survive beyond his departure – although the St. Helens-style three piece destination layout did, and the earlier Regent Vs (106-125) were converted to this layout. I gather, from J S King’s excellent three-volume history of BCT, that John Wake didn’t stay long at BCT because his anti-trolleybus views put him in conflict with a good proportion of the Transport Committee . . . although that didn’t, during his short tenure, stop him pushing through the agreement in committee that led to the final decision to decommission the trolleybus operations.
Philip Rushworth
05/08/12 – 07:24
Re the comment from Geoff Atherton, St Helens K199, Reg No. KDJ 999 was an experimental Regent V front entrance bus bought in lieu of the fact that Leyland could not supply Atlanteans. She was unique to the Corporation and as far as I can remember had the nickname “Big Bertha”. She ended up on the 309 service from Burtonwood to Southport, but had a habit of running out of diesel on route. Apparently, whilst on charter to Blackburn, she also dropped part of her engine on the nearside lane of the M6! As far as I am aware, she is still extant in the North West Transport Museum in St Helens.
Alan Blincow
22/08/12 – 14:58
St Helens Corporation had a kind of year letter system but it was only briefly used on double deckers. Some had the letter stencilled internally, others didn’t. Some had just the fleet number at the front of the bus, others didn’t. It was only used between 1954 and 1966, the final six Leyland Titan PD2As and three AEC Regents (1967) were just 50-58. Letters A-D were retrospectively applied, A being pre-1945, B were 1945-47, C 1948. The London specification AEC Regent RT types were given letter D. Sanction E was the first to be applied new, to Leyland Titan PD2s (1954/5), F (1955/6), G (1956). H, J and K were AEC Regent Vs of 1957-59 and the first “St Helens bonnet” Leyland PD2As of 1960. Letter L applied to AEC Regent Vs and Leyland PD2As built in 1961/62. L was used for the 1965 Leyland PD2As instead of M, but these had year-letter registrations and the corporation decided that with future new buses having year letter registrations the fleet number prefix was no longer necessary so it was dropped. However many of the L prefixed buses carried them internally until withdrawal in Merseyside PTE days in the late 1970s.
Paul Mason
25/05/13 – 08:34
Re Alan Blincows post… K199 was used on the 309-319 services between Warrington and Southport extensively between 1963 and 1967 and most certainly didn’t run out of fuel on the ‘last Southport’!!!. The tank was more than ample for any duty that the Corporation ran. I think you are referring to an article in Mervyn Ashtons otherwise excellent book on St Helens Transport…. Let’s just say that Mervyn was using a little ‘poetic licence’ at times!!!. I bought Big Bertha from Tom Hollis at Queensferry in June 1978, and later sold her on to Ray Henton at the North West Transport Museum, where she still resides…
Roy Corless
24/08/14 – 10:39
Yesterday I did a wedding hire with ex St Helens AEC Regent V/MCW bus no 58. A warning in the cab says Unlaiden height 14ft 3 1/2in . So this must have been the standard for the corporation till the last half cabs were delivered
Geoff S
04/08/16 – 11:12
Does anybody know if St Helens K199 (Big Bertha) had any work done on it?
John M
01/12/16 – 06:54
In reply to your inquiry K199 has had a clutch slave cylinder replaced, But the master also needs work. This will be done sometime in 2017 to enable the bus to be moved around the museum more easily. The sides of the bus are Bulging so work is required to the main body.
John P
27/05/17 – 07:33
Update on St.Helens K199 (KDJ 999) Big Bertha. The clutch hydraulics have now been sorted and the engine started for the first time in 15yrs. It still resides at the North West Transport Museum in St.Helens, there is going to be a show next year at the town hall square where it is hoped K199 will be on display.
John P
02/05/18 – 07:50
Does any one know if Big Bertha k199 is running yet?
John M
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
10/06/18 – 08:45
Yes it is running but unfortunately it cannot be extricated from the position it is in at the museum but the interior has been completely repainted on the lower deck to the standard of what it was when it was in service with St. Helens.
Sheffield Corporation 1960 AEC Regent V 2D3RA Weymann H39/30R
Nearing the ending of its days, 441 was one of 26 Weymann H39/30R bodied AEC Regent V 2D3RA delivered in April 1960 to replace trams on the penultimate route – Meadowhead to Sheffield Lane Top . There were also 20 Alexander bodied Regent V for the same purpose. The photo was taken on 13 July 1974 at Whirlow Bridge. The presence of the Roe bodied Regent V (also delivered in 1960) in the background and the group of people nearby suggests it was an enthusiasts tour. Presumably 441 was not working on a route from its home garage as the correct destination of Dore is not shown. Orion bodies can look good!!
Couldn’t get much better than that, Ian (two of my favourites) – but could you not have got the Roe bus better, or nearer, or both!!! But of course Orions can look good – especially at 14 years old. With the Roe bus being near the entrance to Whirlow Park, could it have been a wedding hire?
David Oldfield
Are all your photos this good, Ian? Do you have enough for a book? It occurs to me that, good as it is, Charles Hall’s book is photographically incomplete and that must leave scope for a “Glory Days” or some such (of Sheffield Transport) – using your photos and first hand knowledge. After the Roes, these were my favourites, but why the extra long 5 seat benches over each rear wheel arch and why, from 71 in total 1960 Regent Vs, were only a few Weymann’s fitted with exhaust brakes? [It got that I could identify individual buses, with out seeing them, from my desk at school!]
Hebble Motor Services 1957 AEC Regent V D3RV Weymann H33/28R
Due to a height restriction at their garage in Walnut Street, Halifax, Hebble had always purchased lowbridge double deckers, and their first two Regent V’s (75/76, GCP 4/5) of 1956 carried lowbridge Weymann Orion bodies. However, by early 1957 the northern end of the garage had been modified to accept conventional highbridge buses and so the next double deck deliveries were the first of this layout. As with the previous pair they were AEC Regent V’s of the D3RV variety, with the A218 9.6-litre engine from the Mk. III and vacuum brakes, but with Weymann Orion H33/28R bodies. On delivery in March 1957 they were the last vehicles to be numbered in the original fleet number series (81-83, GJX 845-847), but by June a new numbering scheme had been introduced and they became 301-303. They were still unable to pass through into the lower section of the garage and after a few incidents it was decided that highbridge vehicles should have their radiator cowls painted in cream, as well as having cream steering wheels as a warning measure. They were half a ton lighter than the two lowbridge Mk. Vs and were consequently very potent performers, producing the most amazing growling sound effects from their straight-through exhaust systems. They also initially had exhaust brakes which added an impressive cacophony of clicking, hissing and booming sounds whenever the brakes were applied, and I’m sure that many Hebble drivers drove them to exploit these effects to the maximum – I know I would have done ! I believe that at first 301 and 302 were initially allocated to Bradford Park Lane garage to operate Hebble’s share of the 64 Bradford-Brighouse-Huddersfield, as I saw them only occasionally in their early days passing our house at Stump Cross, Halifax, but 303 was based at Halifax and quickly became a regular sight on the 7/17 services to Bradford, and was a favourite for operating the very fast-timed Saturdays-only 29 “Wibsey Flyer” to Bradford via Wibsey. After these Hebble switched to forward entrance Mk. V’s and the cream front cowls continued to be applied for a while, but by 1960 they had reverted to red. Originally in red with a single cream band above the lower deck windows, they later had the cream extended around those windows, then following the delivery of their first and only new Fleetline in 1966 cream was also applied around the upper deck windows too, as shown in the photo above. The fleetnames were originally of the block capital style with the middle letters undelined, but later an italic style was adopted. 301 was withdrawn in April 1970, but 302/303 survived a little longer to be renumbered into a Yorkshire Woollen-based series as 600/601, 600 being withdrawn in December 1970, but 601 lasting until the end of Hebble’s stage service operation in March 1971. All passed to the dealer W. North of Sherburn-in-Elmet, but by this time Hebble’s maintenance standards had sunk to an all time low and they found no further buyers other than the scrap man. A sad end to some most impressive buses.
Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer
09/06/16 – 16:58
I’ve just realised I made an error in the copy. 81-83 were not numbered in the original series, which had commenced at 1 in 1924 and reached 190 by 1947, whereupon a second series reverted to 1 again and reached 83 with these Mk. V’s. (Eight second hand Tiger TS7’s and TS8’s from Yorkshire Woollen District were tagged onto the original series as 191-198, presumably as they were not intended to stay long).
John Stringer
09/06/16 – 19:09
Hebble was a bit of an anomaly in that although a BET operation it was much smaller than the municipal operators with which it co-existed. Halifax, Huddersfield, Bradford and Leeds were all much larger and shall we say more prestigious operations than Hebble. Probably not surprising that in the end it was swallowed up by Halifax although some of the coaching operations went to Yorkshire Woolen if I remember rightly.
Philip Halstead
10/06/16 – 05:39
I have long wondered why the National Bus Company subsequently allowed the engineering standards at Hebble to degenerate to a point where the vehicles were operating in a state that bordered on, or in some cases, actually attained, the dangerously illegal. GGH refers to some truly hair raising (though, sadly, not for me, nowadays) examples of Hebble maintenance, or the lack of it, that emerged on HPTD taking over the company in 1971. From 1968, NBC inherited the nationalised element of the Halifax Joint Omnibus Committee, plus the entire Transport Holding Company and BET interests in Hebble. Why then did it wait three years during which time Hebble suffered inexcusable neglect before offering the business to Halifax? Were there some political sensitivities to smooth over, such as the possible wounds to civic pride in Leeds and Bradford, that might have arisen with the arrival of Halifax operations in those cities? I am sure that John’s remarkable understanding of the wider scene will furnish some answers.
Roger Cox
12/06/16 – 06:51
Before the takeover by Halifax in 1971, some Hebble routes based on Bradford had been transferred to West Yorkshire Road Car (WYRCC), including the Bradford – Huddersfield service 64. In 1972, Calderdale JOC (the undertaking formed by the merger of Halifax and Todmorden JOCs) transferred one bus working on the former Hebble Bradford – Brighouse route to WYRCC. At the same time, to replace the loss-making ex-Hebble Halifax – Bingley service, WYRCC reorganised its own services in the area. These changes were partly a response to NBC’s claim that Halifax had taken over so much of Hebble. The JOC’s report had even envisaged the possibility of WYRCC participating in the former Hebble Halifax – Leeds service, but this did not happen.
Geoff Kerr
12/06/16 – 06:52
In terms of injured pride in Leeds and Bradford. Bradford used to have joint services with Hebble while the services to Leeds had limited pick up and set down rules. When Calderdale took over the rules continued so there was no loss of traffic but Leeds.
Chris Hough
12/06/16 – 09:08
If I remember rightly – its a long time ago but maybe mid 1970s – the Leeds – Dudley Hill – Halifax service, formerly 8 but later 508, became operated by Leeds’ Bramley depot. So parochial had LCT’s western operations been up to then (apart from the 72 joint with Bradford CT) that those venturing to Halifax were looked on with the reverence usually reserved for spacemen and the like!! Chris H may have more accurate information??
Chris Youhill
12/06/16 – 16:56
Roger, I’m afraid my ‘understanding of the wider scene’ does not extend quite as far as you may imagine ! Call me shallow and a bit of a philistine but I have never found the inclination to be that interested in the political machinations that take place both within the industry and between it and national and local government. I tend to be more grounded in the ‘what actually happens on a day-to-day basis’ and ‘how it happens’, than the ‘what ought to happen’ and ‘why it happened’. It’s probably for that reason that it was fortunate that I never progressed into a management career, as I would most likely have become quickly disillusioned and depressed ! Therefore I cannot really offer much in the way of an explanation as to why the NBC took so long to part with Hebble. Through most of its existence Hebble had directors who were also on the board of Yorkshire Woollen, and the two worked closely together – particularly with regard to coaching, and occasionally lending one another staff. In the last year or two of Hebble’s existence the NBC brought them closer together, the vehicles adopting YWD’s red livery and the vehicles being renumbered in a 5xx/6xx series within the YWD numbering scheme. There was a certain exchange of services, with Hebble’s share of the 64 Bradford-Huddersfield passing to West Yorkshire, and I imagine that all this was seen as the precursor to an eventual absorption of Hebble into YWD, in the same way as Mexborough & Swinton was absorbed by Yorkshire Traction, and Stratford Blue by Midland Red. However YWD themselves were seriously struggling in the late 1960’s with vehicle maintenance and the ability to operate a full service and so they had more pressing matters to concentrate on. The BET group had always retained those smaller companies mentioned, apparently to provide a means of allowing up and coming trainee managers to hone their skills with a smaller unit before progressing to greater things. Hebble was ideal for this purpose as it operated local stage, express, excursion and tour services, and several well known (in their day) managers of larger BET/NBC companies had at some point done their stint with Hebble. I always felt sorry for Hebble’s last manager – David Dickinson – who suddenly found himself dumped at Halifax with the unenviable, nay impossible task of managing a company that must have seemed to be gasping its last breath before drowning in a quagmire. There had been occasional talk in the local press since the late 1960’s of the possibility of a takeover by Halifax JOC of Hebble services, mostly put about by Halifax GM Geoffrey Hilditch himself. Some of his newer buses even had ‘Bradford’,’Wakefield’ and other destination included on their blinds, but I suspect that other parties to a possible deal may have regarded Hilditch as a bit of a ‘cocky and ambitious upstart’ and did not want to see him getting his own way and ruling the roost. I may be wrong about that, but I did work under him and know what he was like. Regarding Chris Y’s comments about the 508 Halifax-Dudley Hill-Leeds (let’s quote it the right way round, Chris !). Leeds’ Bramley Depot came onto the route when it was extended across Leeds City Centre from King Street to the Central Bus Station. They provided two buses, with Calderdale (Halifax) providing the other three. Bramley drivers quickly developed an appalling reputation for running early, especially in the evenings, and having a generally bad attitude. I worked permanent late duties on the 508 for a few years during this period and regularly observed them passing in the opposite direction up to 20 minutes early on many occasions, and probably hundreds of people were left behind over the years – most never having even seen the bus go by and having just assumed it had been cancelled. When it was decided (rather foolishly, as it turned out) to extend the 508 beyond Halifax westwards out to Rishworth, for the unadventurous Bramley drivers it was the last straw and they would have none of it, so Calderdale drivers got the whole service back to themselves again. The Rishworth extension was not a success and it was soon cut back to its original form, but Leeds were never invited back on again and to this day, though now operating into Leeds via Farsley and Kirkstall, it is still 100% First Halifax worked.
John Stringer
13/06/16 – 05:56
John, You didn’t miss out much by forgoing a management ‘career’. Much of mine was spent with LCBS, its forebears- not too bad generally, but its successors became an entirely different story. With the fracturing of the established companies in preparation for privatisation, things became very nasty at times as certain people used every stratagem available to secure their futures under the new order. I was glad to get out of Kentish Bus at the end of 1987, and resolved never again to seek a bus industry management post in the cut-throat private ownership environment. Back to Halifax. Yes, I too can well appreciate the existence of a level of scepticism at NBC about Geoffrey Hilditch, who never disguised his “Greater Halifax” aspirations. This might have influenced NBC to hang on to the rump of Hebble until its survival became perilous, but the neglect of the company was utterly disgraceful. Independent operators would have had their operating licences revoked if engineering maintenance had declined to the dangerous state that existed with Hebble. Turning to the unreliable Leeds element in the joint operations with Calderdale, this does illustrate a weakness that often arises in supervision standards when two different participants are involved in a route. Did the Calderdale inspectorate not have authority over the Leeds staff on the joint operation?
Roger Cox
13/06/16 – 05:58
Thanks John for a wealth of interesting information about the 8/508 service, and by way of humble excuse I must admit that I was reading my compass wrong way round when I described the terminal points in the order that I did. As regards early running I sadly have to say that in LCT/Leeds Metro District days this crime was by no means confined to Bramley depot – the same was widespread at Seacroft, Middleton, Sovereign Street, Headingley and Torre Road as well. This meant that the conscientious folks were doing all the work while the work shy element had an easy time, and of course the passengers suffered as a result. To a very large extent the satellite tracking system of modern times has virtually eliminated early running and a good thing too.
Chris Youhill
13/06/16 – 10:59
Roger – your last sentence raises a most interesting point regarding joint operation of a service. The old established 72 service from Leeds to Bradford was shared by Leeds City Transport and Bradford City Transport and the inspectors of either could supervise any bus and it worked very well indeed. As an enthusiast I quite often, if on the area, took advantage of this to check superb Bradford buses. The silent recommendation though was that the inspectors of each operator would more or less stay local normally. I recall one occasion when I slipped up badly – I boarded a “Bradford blue” on the Leeds Ring Road at Wortley and on the front seat upstairs was an obnoxious character claiming that he couldn’t find his ticket. I “smelt a rat” and insisted that he did and in turning out each pocket, deliberately slowly, he produced an astonishing array of old rubbish and battered tickets galore – but no valid one. A further rumpus occurred as he finally realised he was going to have to pay again and by the time I’d seen to that – I’d been totally engrossed in the case – I realised to my horror that the bus was at Laisterdike within a mile or so of Bradford. I should add that checking the Bradford tickets was a bit of a nightmare anyway as they were still using low value Ultimate tickets even on such long routes. Now the Leeds Chief Inspector of the times was an unreasonable tyrant and used to forensically examine our checking sheets in the hope of finding something to “nit pick” about, but mercifully my delightful “away day” trip went un-noticed for a change.”
Chris Youhill
13/06/16 – 17:14
Halifax inspectors certainly had authority over Leeds drivers within Calderdale, and similarly Leeds inspectors could – and regularly did – check Halifax buses in Leeds. The middle section of the 508 route also passed through a significant sector of Bradford too, but I don’t ever recall their inspectors ever boarding. The problem in the evenings was that there was only one inspector allocated to ticket checking duties, and even then they would always use the flimsiest excuse to seize the opportunity to avoid going out ‘on the road’ if there was a nice little warm office job that could be found. Even then, if they did go out the service had been reduced so much that it was no longer possible to just hop on and off buses at random, and most had a set sequence of bus journeys and connections worked out that was the same every day. Consequently all the drivers knew what trips they would board, and more importantly which they wouldn’t. One particular inspector had his checking sheet written up in advance and would spend a considerable time in the late afternoon going through the sheets to ascertain which drivers would be on which trips. Then over teatime he would sidle into the staff canteen and seek out these various drivers, sit down alongside them and start up a friendly conversation. Then he would quietly ask them to verify they were on a particular trip on his sheet, then slip it beside their their dinner plate, point to the appropriate line and say “Just sign there – save me a job”. All being well he would gather signatures for every journey, then of course not bother leaving the office all night ! Either that, or he would slope off home for a few hours. We shouldn’t have signed of course, but then they always had ways of getting their own back if you refused. I have to confess a bit of inexcusable naughtiness on my part. There was one particular inspector who did go out checking and always started out boarding my regular first trip after tea – the 1850 508 Leeds. He would ride to the lower reaches of Northowram where he knew he could then cross the road and catch the inbound 508 back to Stump Cross, then on to a 549 Brighouse and so on. My trip was always lightly loaded out of town, but this chap was a bit of a chatterbox and would stand at the front yacking on about this and that. I would deliberately drag my heels up the road and divert his attention from checking his watch and looking out for the inbound bus. Nine times out of ten I would be able to manipulate matters so that he missed his connection and he would then have to get off and wait ages for the next one – his evening’s entire plan totally fouled up ! Yet he always fell for it. As far as checking Leeds Bramley drivers running early, Halifax inspectors’ prearranged plan did not include their trips as they didn’t ‘fit’. Though the first time point at Shelf was within Calderdale, the ones at Odsal, Dudley Hill and Stanningley Bottom were in Bradford (where nobody wanted to check) and the one at Bramley Town End was in Leeds. The worst trips for running early were their last two from Halifax at 2220 and 2250, after which they ran to Bramley Depot – in fact the last one terminated at Bramley Town End and ran straight in from there. During the daytime on the 508 it was laughable the way that once past Stanningley Bottom going towards Leeds, the Leeds drivers upon spotting a 508 catching them up would slow right down to a crawl and then pull in at the next stop, irrespective of whether there was anyone boarding or alighting. They would then remain there until the Halifax driver passed them. If I had to pull in myself to drop off, and stopped behind the Leeds bus, they would still not move off, and if necessary would just pull forward a few feet, then wave me past. They used to do it to one another too, and it was not unusual to see maybe three assorted Leeds buses parked up waiting for each other to move, or just crawling along at 5mph in a convoy – all waiting for a 508 to pass them and clear the road. Halifax drivers were different altogether and couldn’t be bothered with all this dawdling and work avoidance, so we just used to whizz past and get on with it.
John Stringer
14/06/16 – 06:04
What fascinating and slightly worrying information, Chris and John. If timetables were so blatantly disregarded and bunching so common, is it any wonder that many bus users said “enough’s enough” and bought a car? It would be understandable if traffic was the cause of bad timekeeping, but such “Spanish practices” (if I’m allowed to say this phrase nowadays) showed a disdain for the passengers. You and Chris were obviously true busmen, but some of your colleagues did a huge disservice to the industry and certainly helped to perpetuate the downward spiral of bus use.
Paul Haywood
14/06/16 – 06:05
Gosh John, now there really are some revelations there and its safe to say that with the Chief Inspector at Leeds, the tyrant I mentioned – others in the post were fair but stern, the Halifax inspectors would never have got away any of that Luddite activity and forgery. On another point, perhaps the Bradford inspectors were only permitted to board Leeds CT/Metro buses on the two joint services 72 and 78??
Chris Youhill
14/06/16 – 06:05
Sorry to nitpick John but Stanningley Bottom was and is well within the city boundary of Leeds and their inspectors should have been actively checking tickets and time keeping.
Chris Hough
14/06/16 – 11:14
Chris H – you are correct regarding the current Leeds boundary but psychologically Stanningley Bottom was, since tramway days, always considered to be the boundary between Leeds and Bradford. To be pedantic, the correct name is Stanningley Bottoms. I first heard this used when I travelled from Leeds to Stanningley on a Hebble Regal 3 saloon. Thinking I had boarded the wrong bus, the conductor announced “First stop Stanningley Bottoms!” which, for a ten-year old, I found highly amusing. I hadn’t boarded incorrectly, of course, as I wanted to experience the thrill of riding non-stop all the way up Stanningley Road even though this involved a lengthy walk home. Those old fare protection arrangements limited the choices for some, but gave a much speedier ride for many others travelling further distances. This advantage is now largely lost as most interurban services stop at every road end and penetrate every sprawling housing estate regardless of potential usage. Until 1974, of course, Stanningley was effectively split within Leeds, Pudsey and Farsley which must have been a nightmare for village life. The old boundary with Leeds was a few hundred yards east of the Bottoms (which was part of Pudsey). Local government reorganisation had many faults but at least it unified this community.
Paul Haywood
15/06/16 – 06:12
One point is that blatant early running must have led to very low passenger loadings, and examination of receipts over time would tend to suggest that particular services, or even whole routes, were surplus to requirements.
Stephen Ford
15/06/16 – 18:16
I spent many years in the bus and coach industry, and have to say that an unholy alliance of obstreperous (and militant) drivers, undisciplined supervisory staff (as set out above) and indifferent and incompetent management are largely responsible for the self-destruction of the bus industry. I have heard many times the comment “This would be a good job if it wasn’t for the passengers” only half tongue in cheek. It is fashionable to poo-poo the word customers when referring to passengers (and it is true that this is often used insincerely to try to pull the wool over said customers eyes) but I have the notion that if more basic customer care had been used when passengers were there in plenty then perhaps they wouldn’t be so scarce now. It is unfortunate that many in service industries in the UK are unable to distinguish between “service” and “servile”.
Malcolm Hirst
16/06/16 – 05:50
Very well summed-up, Malcolm! It reminds me of the attitude in many shops, not very long ago and I am amazed that some of them survive, where staff had the attitude “If we’ve got it, it’s on the shelf. If it isn’t on the shelf, then we haven’t got it.” However did the management let the staff get away with it?
Pete Davies
16/06/16 – 08:13
Way back in 1972/3 I applied for a job as a Schedules Clerk with Leeds City Transport. Glad I did not get it.
Stephen Howarth
17/06/16 – 06:12
We shouldn’t forget the Traffic Commissioners, either, acting as arbitrators among competing operators when any changes to routes were applied for by one of them and, seemingly, usually keeping the status quo, with nobody ever considering what would serve the customer better!
Christopher Hebbron
18/06/16 – 06:11
To some extent I agree about the Traffic Commissioners.However on the bus scene some protection was (and is?) desirable to protect the network so as not to concentrate all operators on the same lucrative routes. One of the unfortunate by-products of deregulation was the ending of the often used principle of cross-subsidisation where many operators partially subsidised unremunerative routes to preserve their commercial position. When opened to full competition this became an expensive exercise and so it has led to curtailment of services and ever-more expensive subsidies to keep the minimum of service levels. It should be noted that the predictions by the pro deregulation brigade of free competition and lower fares/better services have never come to pass – and the alliance of nominally competing groups have a monopoly that NBC could never have dreamed of. Most of my experience has been in the coach industry and there the Traffic Commissioners activities were really restrictive. There was little or no opportunity to innovate. Objections to linking of licences often meant that some towns and villages had almost no excursion provision, and attempts to serve special events always led to objections by the express operators even where a day return facility did not exist ! Experiments to tap new sources of traffic or innovative destinations were almost impossible.Now that the major operators have mostly opted out of “occasional” coaching the opportunities are theoretically there, but the potential customer base is now so small that it must be difficult. Creating excursion traffic is hard work, and requires real flair and many man-hours. The “regional companies” (NBC parlance) were happy to get the revenue but I think in many cases they saw the work required as a distraction. Early deregulation of the excursion business together with an even earlier ditching of the silly (and unenforceable) separate fares rules would have led to a much healthier outcome.
South Wales Transport Co Ltd 1955 AEC Regent VMD3RV Weymann H33/26R
Seen at the Swansea Bus Museum Running Day was this AEC Regent V MD3RV010 bearing Weymann body M6709 H33/26R and new to South Wales (447) in 1955. South Wales were loyal AEC customers over the years. For several years the livery was all-over red without the cream waistband.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Les Dickinson
02/09/16 – 06:48
A lovely photograph Les, and thank you for posting it, as it brings back happy teenage memories. Sister vehicles MCY405/8 were acquired by Samuel Ledgard in late 1966, closely followed in early 1967 by NCY453/5 from the 1956 batch. When “Sammie’s” was taken over by West Yorkshire in October 1967, the South Wales quartet were among the vehicles retained by the Company, and were given fleet numbers DAW1-4. Initially allocated to WY’s Otley depot, the vehicles were later transferred to Harrogate, where they soon settled down to duties on local services 1/2 Bachelor Gardens-Woodlands, and 9 New Park-Oatlands, plus occasional stints on the 11 Roche Avenue-Cawthorn Avenue and 12 Fountains Avenue-Starbeck routes. Their delightful melodic tones and wonderful throaty exhaust notes immediately endeared my brother and I to their charms, and at every opportunity we would endeavour to catch one into town, even though this meant a five minute walk up to Skipton Road from our usual stop on King Edward’s Drive. As I had a morning paper round covering Bilton and Bachelor Gardens, I was also party to ‘The Regent Symphony’ early each day, when often the only other sounds to break the stillness were birdsong or the occasional car. The sound of the AECs barking away up Bachelor Gardens or the Hill Tops could be heard quite a distance away, and gave an indication of whether I was running late, or to time on my busy round. I’m not sure if the residents living along the route would have shared my love of such sound effects, but as a 14/15-year old, I no doubt felt that “sometimes there’s just no pleasing some people!”
Brendan Smith
02/09/16 – 14:08
My word, surely one of the best ever pictures of a superb preservation achievement. To think that our Ledgard quartet, as described above by Brendan, once looked like that !! Much as I loved them in Ledgard territory I was never as lucky as Brendan in hearing them bellowing their lusty way up the steep Skipton Road from the A 61 Ripon Road – and in one of the lower gears the contralto/soprano accompaniment from the gearbox must have been glorious !!
Chris Youhill
03/09/16 – 06:28
I would imagine that the use of these Regent Vs by West Yorkshire must have been a rare case where drivers preferred buses from an operator taken over to their own native stock!
Peter Williamson
06/01/17 – 11:10
After service with South Wales, MCY 407 went to Whippet Coaches of Cambridgeshire and then between 1968 and 1978 was with Charlton-on-Otmoor Services of Oxfordshire. I passed my PSV test on her in 1975! It went back to Wales for preservation from C-on-O
Samuel Ledgard 1949 AEC Regent III RT Weymann H30/26R
In 1937-8 London Transport got together with AEC to jointly design and produce a new double deck chassis with AECs large 9.6 litre oil engine with air operated gearbox and brakes. From what I can gleam the prototype entered service in 1938 as ST1140 (EYK 396) but it had a body taken from a scrapped Leland Titan TD 111 or 118 seems to be a bit of a dispute on that. But in July 1939 it was given a brand new body and was then renumbered RT1. London Transport then ordered 150 more, RT2-151 which were delivered by the time production ceased in 1940 because of the war those 150 were bodied by London Transport themselves. I have another dispute here and that is by the end of production in 1954 according to one source nearly 7000 RTs had been delivered to London Transport but another source says that the highest fleet number was 4825 that’s a difference of 2000 or so. Maybe the 7000 is for total build but I do not think there was that many delivered new to other operators do you know leave a comment.
There were 4825 RT’s but the RT Family included RTL’s and RTW’s so the figure of nearly 7000 is probably correct.
Anonymous
The RTL was a Leyland Titan PD2/1 chassis with Leyland O.600 engine but with AEC preselect gearbox and bodied by Park Royal 1149, Metro-Cammell 450 and Weymann 31 all to a London Transport design.
The RTW was as the RTL except they were PD2/3 and all bodied with 8 foot wide bodies instead of the normal 7′ 6″ and all 500 were bodied by Leyland.
There was also the SRT which were 1939 AEC Regent STLs rebodied with brand new RT bodies there was 160 built in total.
So that makes 4825 RTs 1630 RTLs 500 RTWs which makes 6955 so there is the approx 7000 and if you add in the 160 SRTs this will give a total of 7115.
Spencer
New 7/12/1952 A.E.C. Regent III RT 0961 Chassis No: 6758 Engine Type: AEC 6cyl. A204 9.6ltr Weymann H30/26R Body No: W269 Entered Ledgards service 5th November 1963 Withdrawn: 14/10/67 Sold To Dunn (A1 Service) 02/68 Withdrawn: 11/71
Terry Malloy
What a nostalgic shot-a Sammie RT alongside some of West Yorkshire’s finery, and set in Chester Street bus station. There always seemed to be an RT parked up either there or in Otley bus station, as they were so numerous in the fleet. They had a lovely reassuring tickover, plus a delightfully tuneful transmission (fluid flywheel/pre-selector gearbox) and seemed to have an aura of indestructibility about them. Shame West Yorkshire didn’t keep a few running after takeover. It would have been interesting to see some in red and cream, almost harking back to their London days….
Brendan Smith
Brendan it is not generally known that, in the very hurried arrangements for the WYRCC takeover of Samuel Ledgard, West Yorkshire fleet numbers were allocated for most if not all of the Samuel Ledgard vehicles. The entire RT class, at least one of which (MLL 920) received a new C of F in the final week, were to be DA 1 – 34. I was lucky enough to be the first driver of the very first Otley Depot RT – NXP 864, RT 4611. It was overhauled and ready for use in the garage one Saturday night and I just couldn’t contain my excitement so pestered the late garage man to let us use it for the last two trips of our late turn. 8.10pm Otley – Leeds, 8.55pm Leeds – Otley, 9.50pm Otley – Leeds, 10.35pm Leeds – Otley. As expected it swallowed up the long ascent of the A660 to Bramhope in very fine style and comfort.
Chris Youhill
12/01/17 – 11:21
I think one or two comments on Spencer’s post (above) are appropriate. The chassis of the RTLs and RTWs differed from PD2/1s and PD2/3s in having a longer wheelbase (16’4″ instead of 16’3″) and air brakes (instead of vacuum) – there may have been other differences. I don’t think Leyland ever called the RTL/RTW chassis PD2/1 or PD2/3. There were 32 RTLs supplied new with Weymann bodies (RTL1307, 1601-31), making the RTL total 1,631 and the RT/RTL/RTW total 6,956. The SRTs came about by virtue of there being more new bodies available than chassis, so 160 ‘RT’ bodies were placed on existing STL chassis to make the SRT class. When the supply of chassis caught up the SRT bodies were transferred to new RT chassis, but those are included in the RT total of 4,825 – so to get the total of ‘RT’ family buses up to 7,115/6 you’re counting the SRT bodies twice.
David Call
13/01/17 – 06:41
The picture shows MXX 148 on Ledgard’s longest stage carriage route, one taken over with B & B Tours in the mid 1930s. The destination shown is “Bradford via Otley and Manningham Lane” and the display for the return journey is just visible “Harrogate via Manningham Lane and Otley.” I was always surprised that Menston Village was not mentioned, this being the chief “attraction” of the service compared with the WYRCC direct 53.
Chris Youhill
13/01/17 – 06:42
David Call is right about the why of the SRT but although the frame modifications were extensive, amounting to a complete re-profiling of the side members of the chassis,what was not upgraded was the engine (7.7) gearbox (spring-operated) and brakes (vacuum).
Stephen Allcroft
13/01/17 – 06:42
I agree with David in his view that the RTL and RTW classes were not classified as members of the PD2 breed. Ken Glazier, whose knowledge on London Transport matters I have always found to be impeccable, gives the RTL as type 7RT and the RTW as type 6RT. The SRT was purely a stop gap to present a modern looking fleet in the early ‘fifties when chassis deliveries lagged behind bodywork supplies. In typical LT fashion, the STL type chassis under the RT type body was ‘modernised’ at ridiculous expense, and the whole project foundered when it became apparent that the brakes were decidedly incapable of stopping the bus effectively. By that time, chassis supplies were outpacing body deliveries, which is why LT turned to Cravens and Saro, so the whole SRT programme was a fiasco in every way. As for the 7000 total figure for RT/RTL/RTW classes, OK, but there were never that many in service at the same time.
Roger Cox
13/01/17 – 10:09
……and they had to move the fuel tank to the other side of the vehicles too, Stephen! The other tragedy was that the STL’s selected for conversion to SRT’s were the 1939 15STL16’s, the most modern STL’s in the fleet and pretty-well up to RT standards in many respects, having automatic chassis lubrication, amongst others. And why not, for London Transport had hoped that this batch of STL’s would be RT’s which, in the end, turned out to be wishful thinking.
London Transport 1953 (registration date) AEC Regent III RT – RT8/2 Weymann H30/26R
Two weeks ago my contribution for the ex London Transport STL2117 was posted on this site, the shot was taken in April 1958. At about the same time that shot was taken, spiffing new RTs were coming on stream, and here is a shot of KGU 191 RT2262 and new NLE 826 RT3719 at the old Stevenage railway station route terminus. Would I be right is saying that NLE 826 RT3719 was one of many stored new at Loughton garage for ages, awaiting entry to service as NLE was 03/53 – 11/53, presumably because RT production had exceeded requirement?
Copyright Victor Brumby
Or was OLD 528 RT4742 one of those last entrants to the fleet? (In Green Line rig, unusually……) Seen according to my notes at Hitchin along with AEC Regal IV LUC 225 RF25 which was last in the first batch of 25 Regals delivered at the 27ft 6in length and were classed as Private Hire Coaches for sightseeing tours and the like. In the mid 50s ten of the batch 16-25 were transferred to Green Line. Unfortunately the glazed sightseeing roof panels can not be seen in this shot.
Photographs and Copy contributed by Victor Brumby
27/01/12 – 17:37
According to the vehicle histories on “Ian’s Bus Stop” website, RT 3719 entered service at Windsor (WR) garage in May 1953, and transferred to Hitchin garage in 1957. (//www.countrybus.org/) His histories haven’t got as far as the 47xx sequence, but RT 4742 was (according to Ken Glazier’s “London Buses in the 1950s”) one of those delivered straight to storage in 1954 and entering service between March 1958 and August 1959. Ken Blacker’s definitive work on the RT class lists dates of entry to service, but I do not have a copy to hand. The appearance of (bus livery) RTs on Green Line coach services was not that uncommon – many routes at that time had one or two peak hour duplicates, and most routes required relief buses particularly on summer Sundays – to cater for Londoners visiting the countryside, and (where routes served new towns such as Stevenage) visits between new town residents and their friends and relatives still living in inner London. The provision of a few RTs in semi Green Line livery (green central band, Green Line transfers between decks) at country bus garages to cater for this happened in 1960 (again, according to Ken Glazier’s book.) There is more about Hitchin garage (closed 1959) here – //www.ampyx.org.uk/ – the building is still standing, although I understand there is a current planning application in which will involve demolition.
Jon
29/01/12 – 07:32
According to Ken Blacker’s RT book, RT4742 (OLD 528) was indeed one of those stored for the first few years of its life, finally entering service in March 1958, at SV (Stevenage, Fishers Green).
Bob Gell
27/08/12 – 07:58
Firstly can I say how pleased I was to see the photo of the RT’s at the old Stevenage Station, I can only just remember this Station, I was five when it moved, and new ‘AN’s were coming on stream. The other photograph of the Green Line RT is a real gem, as it is the only photograph I have seen, besides one in Ken Blackers ‘RT’ book of the first Stevenage depot, situated in a cul-de-sac off Fishers Green Road, behind the old Station which was in use as a temporary outstation of Hitchin & Hatfield until the new depot in Danestrete opened in 1959.
Alec Bright
06/11/12 – 06:46
Just a quick note to confirm that the building shown behind the RT is Stevenage Fisher’s Green, and not Hitchin. You will find a 1990s image of the garage with its curiously pitched and slanting roof span on my web page: //www.ampyx.org.uk/ The story unfolding in Hitchin today is complex, and the local historical society are still trying to persuade the planning authorities of the value of the structure. You may have seen coverage in BUSES an B&CP magazines. By coincidence, the National (later UCOC) garage in Fishponds Road was demolished in September of this year. I am shocked at how much revision of my historical pages is necessary. Thank you all for your comments and suggestions.
Browns Blue Bus Service 1950 AEC Regent III RT RT3/3 Saunders H56R originally now Weymann
I was interested to read about Victor’s visit to Leicester in 1958 to see the ex-LT Daimlers in service with Browns Blue. A good friend of mine, Mick Gamble, has just completed writing a comprehensive history of the Browns Blue Company. This is now at print and is due to be released in mid-October. Mick has worked on the project for over two years and has travelled many a mile in interviewing members of the Brown family along with form Browns Blue drivers, conductors and engineering staff. The book will be hard back containing 232 pages, over 200 photos and a complete fleet list. Mick has produced the book to coincide with the 50th anniversary of the take-over of the company by Midland Red in March 1963. Chris Barker noted that Browns Blue also operated nine ex-London Transport RTs and whilst all nine found new owners following withdrawal by Browns Blue, sadly none made it into preservation. So Mick has done the next best thing and has purchased KLB 596 transforming it into a replica of HLW 160 which was the only non-roof box RT that Browns Blue operated. Mick has had authentic adverts produced and a replica 19 metre long destination blind!
Photograph and Copy contributed by Mike Greenwood
21/10/12 – 10:41
Nice!!!
Pete Davies
22/10/12 – 17:04
This vehicle looks magnificent in Brown’s Blue livery, and would look even more so if parked next to the RTW preserved in Stevenson of Spath’s yellow and black colour scheme. Bring them both up to Manchester sometime please, my range is more limited these days! Well done to all involved in this project, independents are severely under-represented in the ranks of preserved vehicles.
Neville Mercer
27/01/13 – 07:59
We had this bus for our wedding transport in July 2006. It was in traditional London Transport red. Our wedding was in Winchester and the bus was hired for the day with a clippie from somewhere in Hampshire.
London Transport 1954 AEC Regent III RT – RT8/2 Weymann (Originally) Park Royal (Now) H56R
Here we have two views of the same vehicle in the two liveries of London Transport. The view of it in red is at Heathrow Bus Station on 21 January 1976, where she is on the 140 to Mill Hill East Station. The view in green shows her – as preserved – on Itchen Bridge in Southampton. It’s 6th May 1979, and she is addressed to Hemel Hempstead Bus Station on the 347 while taking part in the Southampton City Transport Centenary rally. According to BBF 12 London Transport book it was delivered new in the green livery.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
04/11/12 – 15:27
Evidence seems to say 1954, which I am inclined to take as date of entry into service. Are you sure it still has a Weymann body? It carried one when it was new, unquestionably, but it would have had at least one body swap while with LT and recent references quote Park Royal bodywork. Unfortunately the ultimate authority on this subject (Ian’s Bus Stop, on the net) currently has RT histories up to RT4199 only.
David Call
04/11/12 – 17:09
David, The 2012 PSV Circle listing of preserved buses gives her as having Park Royal body, and new date of 7/54. Thank you for clarifying.
Pete Davies
04/11/12 – 17:09
I have corrected the information above, I supplied the information under the photo I just put the original body not having any information to dispute it, I had to start somewhere.
Peter
05/11/12 – 13:07
Strangely enough, the sound of the AEC 9.6 litre with pre-selector gearbox – one of the most common, homely and comforting sounds of the 1950s bus scene, is one that we don’t have on the Old Bus Sounds page. There are one or two on YouTube, but I have yet to find a really good one. They all seem a bit “rasping” and you don’t get the full flavour of the contralto in first and second, and then the rich deep tenor in third. Any offers?
Stephen Ford
05/11/12 – 15:20
I wonder just how much money was wasted by LPTB/LTE continually painting vehicles red, then green, merely because it was wanted in the other half of the business. I never got the impression that there was anyone controlling spare green/red ones as a sensible alternative. I wonder if the vehicle in the top photo was ‘snapped’ because of the sloppy blind display – a side blind in the intermediate box – why? And, Stephen, I recall the different sound of the ‘pre-war’ RT’s engines, until they changed the cylinder heads and they all sounded the same then.
Chris Hebbron
05/11/12 – 15:34
Thank you Pete for posting the photos of this RT. I have happy memories of learning to handle this type on the LT skid pan at Chiswick (even though I was already holding a PSV licence from the Eastern Traffic Authority) and I had to retake my test to satisfy LT. Once posted to New Cross garage, I was put on route 192 Lewisham Odeon to Plumstead, and had to contend with Shooters Hill, often boiling at the top when heavily laden, then a very sharp left turn into Eglinton Rd/Hill, which necessitated difficult low speed gear selection.
Norman Long
05/11/12 – 16:01
In answer to the question from Chris, I ‘snapped’ this one because I was at Heathrow to get some photographs of the entry into service of Concorde. While there, I took photos of some of the activity around the bus station, the others being FAR too modern to appear on this site! Certainly, the arrangement of the blinds could be better, but that isn’t why I took the photo.
Pete Davies
05/11/12 – 16:02
Chris, it’s interesting that you should say that. I didn’t know the pre-war RTs. Being from Nottingham I was rarely in London, but NCT had lots of pre and post war Regents in the early 50s, and most of the pre-war survivors were pre-selector. It has long been my recollection that the sound of these pre-war buses was subtly “the-same-but-different” from the “new” (!) 1948 (Metro-Cammell)/49(Roberts)/53 (Park Royal) Regent IIIs. When we moved to Barton territory in 1954, they had a considerable number of pre-war ex-Leeds Regents, which also had the “old” sound.
Stephen Ford
05/11/12 – 17:16
The pre-war RT engines, Stephen, were greatly influenced by Leyland engines in the STD and TF classes. Although Ricardo had a hand in designing the cylinder heads, the direct-injection engines had pot-cavity piston tops (like flowerpots,)a Leyland design, produced under licence, although this fact was kept under wraps! So the AEC engines were, to some extent, hybrids.
If you’ve experienced ‘boiling up’, Norman, this photo will bring back memories, at the top of Annerley Hill, near Crystal Palace, blinds turned for the return journey. This route passed the end of my road, although the vehicle shown is on a short working, not going through to Raynes Park.
Chris Hebbron
06/11/12 – 13:22
Ah, the 157 route, Chris. This, together with the 154, was the replacement for the 654 trolleybus route which ran between Crystal Palace and Sutton Green, the last day of trolleybus operation being 3 March 1959. I went to school at Selhurst, and our playing fields were on the other side of Croydon at Waddon. We had to use the 654, and later the 154/7 to get there. Anerley Hill was at the other end of these routes, beyond Norwood Junction. Whereas the trolleys ascended Anerley Hill in a steady manner, the replacement RTs always struggled up this gradient. LT derated the engine of the RT to 115 bhp, about the same as a K version Gardner 6LW, but the AEC lacked the low speed torque characteristics of the Gardner. However, the RTL, with its similarly derated engine was decidedly worse on hills than the RT. Your point about the profligacy of the old LTE is very true. It was a huge, complacent, inward looking, arrogant organisation that steadfastly refused to acknowledge that it didn’t already know everything about bus operation and ancillary activities. Other participants in the bus industry – BET, BTC, municipals et al – were loftily referred to as “foreign operators”. Insulated from comparisons with practices elsewhere in the industry, LTE had no yardstick by which it could assess its woeful standard of efficiency. Certainly, trade union power was very strong, but much more could have been done to improve matters.
Roger Cox
06/11/12 – 14:04
Thanks Chris—a great picture…I can almost recall the smell of the steam. Those were the days..the best job I ever had!
Norman Long
07/11/12 – 06:52
Wimbledon Hill was the challenge for the ‘pre-war RT’s, on route 93, from Putney Bridge to Epsom (Dorking on Sundays). When I lived in Morden, Roger, it always seemed strange to me that no bus route went to Crystal Palace. The 157 went to Wallington (some cut short at Carshalton) and it was with some pleasure that I noticed that eventually one route, a least, ventured into South-East London. My abiding memory of pre-war RT’s, in their after-life, was seeing a couple of them with Smith’s of Reading, around 1960, looking impeccable, despite their 20-odd years in service by that time.
Chris Hebbron
07/11/12 – 16:50
Another testing route for the RT was the 234 between Hackbridge and Selsdon. The Hackbridge section as far as Purley was straightforward enough, but from Purley the route climbed up the side of the Caterham Valley, then dropped down again through Riddlesdown before ascending again to Sanderstead Church on its way to Selsdon. Later, from March 1971 to January 1973, this route (together with XA Atlanteans) became the province of the solitary FRM, and, as my mother then lived at Riddlesdown, I frequently rode on this splendid machine when visiting. The FRM proved a highly competent performer, taking the gradients in truly fine style. What might have been……!
Roger Cox
07/11/12 – 17:32
One of the favoured few, eh, Roger? Another tragedy, as you say. along with the TSR2 and the recent Nimrod debacle!
Chris Hebbron
13/11/12 – 06:55
When the red RTs were repainted green and transferred to country area garages (and vice versa), does anyone know if the rear axles were changed at the same time? As far as I am aware, central area RTs had rear axles with a lower diff ratio than the ones operated on country routes. This gave the red RTs a lower top speed, but improved acceleration between stops, whereas the green RTs benefitted from a higher top speed, as befitting their routes, but progress through the gears would have been more stately. If such vehicles were simply repainted, it must have caused some confusion and frustration among drivers as they tried to keep to schedule with the ‘wrong’ type of bus!
Brendan Smith
13/11/12 – 12:59
I am surmising, Brendan, but I assume that the repainting exercise formed part of the Aldenham overhaul system. As you know, buses going in had their bodies and chassis separated and sent down dedicated overhaul tracks. Such was the scale of the disassembly process, the vehicle emerging at the far end with the registration OLD 564 would almost certainly have had a different chassis and body to the one that went in. Thus, the “new” OLD 564 might well have had a chassis that entered Aldenham as a high geared Country Dept vehicle. Alternatively, the appropriate higher geared rear axle would have been fitted during the overhaul process, and the emerging chassis would have acquired a green painted body. I worked for the LTE Country Bus Dept in a clerical capacity at Reigate in the early 1960s when the psv speed limit was raised to 40 mph, and all buses had the back axles converted appropriately. I cannot recall any “maverick” low geared machines being used on Country Area services after the conversion program was completed, and, in an organisation so besotted with standardisation as the old LTE, I doubt that such an eventuality would have arisen. If one did slip through the net, it would have been sorted out pretty quickly. Had it not been so dealt with, a T&GWU Union Complaint would certainly have been despatched hot foot to the relevant management in-tray.
Roger Cox
13/11/12 – 14:33
From what you’re saying, Roger, I’m assuming that the bodies never actually changed colour, they just ended up on a different chassis. I don’t know about the RT’s, but as well as different gearing, the Routemasters ‘or the RMC versions anyway’ also had a much higher interior spec with better upholstery and coach style overhead luggage racks
Ronnie Hoye
14/11/12 – 07:14
That might well be true, Ronnie. It would surely be very much easier and less costly to repaint a body in the same colour as before, but, with London Transport’s penchant for profligacy, one cannot be certain that logic prevailed. The only way to ascertain the facts would be by obtaining a history of the relevant body numbers. Unfortunately, Ian’s Bus Stop website, so often a valuable source of detail, does not have the histories of the later examples of the RT class, but one appreciates the magnitude of such a task.
Roger Cox
14/11/12 – 07:14
Thanks for the info Roger. The RTs are certainly a more fascinating breed than their standardised image would have us believe. I admit to having a real soft spot for them, as being brought up as a child in Airedale, they were in abundance on shopping trips to Bradford with Mum and Dad. Samuel Ledgard had a sizeable fleet of RTs (and some RTLs) in their classic blue and light grey livery, and Bradford CT also had twenty-five, the attractive livery of blue with cream window surrounds suiting them very well. The original livery applied to the RTs by BCT was fortunately short-lived, this consisting of all over blue, relieved by a cream band above the lower deck windows – in effect a blue version of LT livery. What was the transport department thinking of? Presumably the General Manager was on holiday for a fortnight when someone came up with that wheeze! As a youngster, I found the huge rear window on each deck of the RT so handsomely modern, and was captivated by the sound effects. The gently ‘knocking’ tickover of that quietly powerful 9.6 litre engine, the melodic pre-selector transmission, and the ‘chiff’ of the air brakes. Even the air-operated gearchange pedal made a noise. Wonderful!
Brendan Smith
14/11/12 – 10:30
You certainly live and learn when you read this site. As Brendan has pointed out, there’s a lot more to RTs than initially meets the eye. However, the discussion about rear axles leads me to ask which ones were fitted to Ledgard’s RTs. On the face of it, it would seem the country higher axle would have been a more suitable choice. Is this correct?
Roy Burke
14/11/12 – 14:05
I share every aspect of Brendan’s delight in having “known” the wonderful RTs, not only in this area but in their home territory as I had many relations in London and visited often. I must tell here a very sad but unfortunately true anecdote reflecting the total lack of interest and knowledge in the job by a huge proportion of drivers and conductors – mind you, understandable I suppose as most likely very few mill or factory workers spent their leisure hour drooling over a certain loom or lathe !! Now then back to Otley and Samuel Ledgard in 1963, and of course the last of the famous Sutton Depot “HGF” Daimler CWA6s (another fabulous family) had only just gone. I can remember making my way to the depot to start a late turn when, outside Woolworth’s in Kirkgate, I encountered one of our more cynical and constantly grumpy colleagues and was informed “Wait till you get to the garage – some more London garbage (polite word after editing) just arrived.” Well, its a wonder I wasn’t knocked down as I sped to the depot knowing full well what to expect, although there had been no announcements or rumours about such an acquisition. There on the forecourt, gurgling away contentedly, was RT 4611 NXP 864, still advertising all the delights of the West End. It was the first RT to enter service from Otley depot and was fairly promptly prepared in what was to become the standard treatment for the 34 RTs and 5 RTLs we were to enjoy eventually. The roof route number box was very professionally removed and the front destination display repanelled to show only our new standard (by then) rolls, and over the platform the glass was neatly masked to leave only the right area for the same version. the rear destination displays were totally removed, and professionally panelled so that no trace remained. Preparation for painting was to the usual incredibly high standard of which Arthur and Benny were very justifiably proud. Moving on now to a Saturday afternoon, late turn again, and “864” was parked in the garage, taxed all ready for the fray but probably not until Monday morning. My conductor was Eddy Busfield, who had been a University student on Summer part time employment but had “caught the enthusiast bug” and had stayed full time. We couldn’t resist after tea and approached the amenable shift garage man with “Can we PLEASE take the RT out ??” Being himself an Ex Pat Londoner he agreed at once, and so off we went like a couple of delighted infants :- 2010 Otley – Leeds 2055 Leeds – Otley 2150 Otley – Leeds 2235 Leeds – Otley Refuel of course on the “wrong” side but who cared – a bit of awkward manipulation was a small price to pay for a wonderful evening. The proof of the pudding is in the eating, as the saying goes, and as more RTs arrived there were rarely if ever any more derogatory comments from those who “open their mouths before they put their brains in gear.” The RTs were rightly legendary and I also loved the RTLs with their different characteristics – wonderful tick over “wobbling” and Leyland “gargling.”
Chris Youhill
14/11/12 – 14:14
Elsewhere on this site, under an item dealing with the Ledgard RTs, Chris Youhill states that one of these machines LYR 915, is now preserved in its original Country Bus Dept livery. Let us know, Chris – were the others green on arrival at Ledgard’s?
Roger Cox
14/11/12 – 15:32
I can remember six operators in the area who had RT’s. Service coaches and Bedlington District, both based in Ashington, had them for miners services and as a result they tended not to be of the best of condition appearance wise. Moor Dale who used them for contract and school runs, they stayed in LT red, but the mudguards and cream centre band were painted blue, Armstrongs of Westerhope ‘who were taken over by T&W PTE and became Armstrong Galley’ they were a pale green colour, Lockeys of West Auckland. they were black and white, but best of all were OK of Bishop Auckland, the RT’s looked wonderful in their livery.
Ronnie Hoye
14/11/12 – 16:30
In another of his evocative posts, above Chris Y briefly mentions the ‘HGF’ Daimler CWA’s at Sutton Garage. I’ve mentioned LTE’s profligate ways before, but when time came for the ‘D’s to go, Merton’s were replace by RT’s, but Sutton’s were replaced by RTL’s. This, of course, required driver and fitter re-training and new workshop material. tooling, manuals etc. Just five months later, the RTL’s were replaced by RT’s! Unbelievable! My experience of the removal of the roof routebox on the generic RT class, was that it was usually done very badly, with pop rivets to the fore etc. SL did do a professional job, as Chris Y says.
Chris Hebbron
15/11/12 – 11:21
Roger, I’m not sure if any records were kept by enthusiasts as to what colour each RT was on arrival here, but certainly there was a mixture with plenty of both red and green. RT 4611, NXP 864, was definitely red as I saw in my delighted, nay rapturous, initial sighting mentioned above. Chris H, I’m astonished, well not really I suppose, to read your fascinating account of the Sutton RTL/RT farce. Although I was always a very great admirer of London Transport it has to be said that they were far too rigid in practices and habits in many ways.
Photograph by “unknown”if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
This picture shows an immaculate newly prepared LYR 867 leaving the roof top park of Armley depot in a manner which could have seen the driver at the Labour Exchange (Job Centre to our younger friends) as a notice on the inner wall warned “ANY DRIVER LEAVING THE ROOF IN ONE SWEEP WILL BE DEALT WITH.” Unusually the rear wheels are visible and painted blue – the normal practice was for the wheel discs to be fitted. The high standard of painting and preparation can be seen, as can the almost imperceptible removal of the roof route number box.
Chris Youhill
15/11/12 – 17:01
I presume, Ronnie, that when you refer to ‘RTs’ you mean any of the RT ‘family’, i.e. RT/RTL/RTW. I’m pretty sure that OK didn’t have any RTs as such, they acquired eight RTLs (I think) when the first batch were released c1958, inherited a further two with the business of Anderson (Blue Belle) of Evenwood, and bought a single RTW in the mid-1960s. Lockey’s (one of my favourite operators) had one RT and two RTLs.
David Call
15/11/12 – 17:45
Stephenson’s of High Etherley certainly had an RTW and possibly an RTL.
John Stringer
16/11/12 – 07:28
That really is a superb photo, Chris Y and does the RT proud. SL’s livery well-suited these vehicles. I like the thought of the driver cocking a snoot at authority and to heck with the consequences! Maybe the RT’s had a better steering lock than other vehicles. Is that true?
Chris Hebbron
16/11/12 – 07:29
Stephenson’s had at least two RTLs, these were replaced by two RTWs in the mid-1960s, these then remained with Stephenson’s until its shares in a couple of stage services were sold to OK (c1970?) – the RTWs were not included in the deal, these were sold by Stephenson’s. I can’t remember what happened to the single-deck service bus – an AEC Reliance, I think.
David Call
16/11/12 – 11:14
One of Stephenson’s RTWs has been preserved in Stephenson’s livery and condition. During 2006 it spent some time at Ensigns – I think they might have been doing some work on it for the owner – and having a Class VI ticket was used on that year’s heritage services in Essex, seen here in Old Harlow on route 622.
Michael Wadman
16/11/12 – 14:42
Yes, David, RT type rather than RT. As a youngster I seldom ventured South of the Tyne, so the only time I actually saw any of OK’s buses was when they were used on the Bishop Auckland/Newcastle service, or, as often happened during the summer, they descended on mass to the coast at Whitley Bay carrying hoards of Children on working mens club outings, but that’s no excuse for poor research on my part. In my defence, I can remember that some of the Bedlington District RT’s were MXX registrations and had roof box indicators, and the Moor Dale pair had Leyland radiators and were KGU 60 and LUC 355 – presumably RTL’s, sorry but I don’t know how many or what type were used by Armstrong’s of Westerhope, but they did have at least one of the breed.
Ronnie Hoye
17/11/12 – 07:01
I think a bit of confusion has crept in here. The Stephenson Brothers which John Stringer refers to was the operator in the Bishop Auckland area who sold their services to OK in 1970. They had a couple of RTL’s and an RTW and used a blue livery. The yellow and black RTW was owned by STEVENSONS of Uttoxeter, Staffs. They ultimately sold out to Arriva and curiously, many Arriva Midlands vehicles still carry legal lettering which states; Stevensons of Uttoxeter t/a Arriva!
Chris Barker
17/11/12 – 07:02
Stevenson’s (with the yellow livery) were based at Spath, just outside Uttoxeter – a very old-established operator running services mainly in the Uttoxeter/Burton area. They eventually sold out to Arriva (or, perhaps, one of its predecessors, I’m not sure now), c1992. One notable event in its history was the takeover (in the run-up to bus deregulation) of the services of East Staffordshire District Council (previously Burton-on-Trent Corporation). Like Stephenson’s, they ran both RTLs and RTWs (more of the former, I think). There is a page on Stevenson’s on this very website.
David Call
18/11/12 – 12:16
In reply to Chris H’s question about steering lock on the RTs I’m afraid I’ve really no idea. I suppose it is indeed possible but on balance I wouldn’t have thought too likely – so probably another thing we shall never know. Likewise, I never got to the bottom of the thinking behind that sinister notice inside the Armley Depot rooftop wall. I never worked from there, other than one morning taking my PSV test from within the main premises, as I was always at Otley garage and its nearby Ilkley “sub depot.” I can only imagine that if a bus was parked in the front corner near the gateway an exit in “one sweep” would put the vehicle right up to the far pavement in the residential street outside, as in this picture. The Depot has long since disappeared under a major new road most reverently named “LEDGARD WAY” but the houses still remain, sadly in a most reprehensible state due to resident neglect, but that’s a social matter not for further comment here.
Chris Youhill
24/11/12 – 14:21
Oh, dear, sorry about that: getting my Stephenson’s and Stevenson’s mixed up. I really ought to know better than to venture into that strange land north of Watford of which I know little!!
Michael Wadman
02/12/12 – 14:10
Here is Stephenson’s of High Etherley, Co. Durham KLB 948. New to London Transport as their RTW 218 in 1/50 and withdrawn by them in 4/65, it passed to Stephenson’s via the dealer Bird’s of Stratford upon Avon. I photographed it on a tour of Co. Durham independents in late Summer, 1969. Note the mis-spelled advert !
John Stringer
03/12/12 – 14:04
It’s amazing how obvious that extra six inches on RTW’s was, compared with 7′ 6″ wide RTL’s. Internally, it gave an extra 4″ in the aisle and they put a 1″ spacer between seat end and bus side for extra shoulder room. You seem, John, to be cursed in the same way as me, the ability to spot a spelling error, instantly, at 100yds (almost literally in this case!).
Chris Hebbron
01/04/13 – 12:51
Just as a matter of interest; the reason the top pic on route 140 has an old blind at the front is because by 1976 the writing was on the wall for RTs and LT stopped making specific blinds for them. So garages started using any thing RT to hand then RM blinds if available. If you look at pics from the seventies you see them starting to creep in. Standards were starting to drop by then.
Danny Robins
01/04/13 – 16:28
The 140 blind is not necessarily an old one. It is actually one from the rear blind box/the nearside rear above the platform. These had the numeral above the via points and were able to fit in the front via blind box of RTs. As you say, such scenes would never have been countenanced during the heyday of RTs, when almost everything was correct. But towards the end, a wrongly sized blind showing the right information, was better than, No blind at all.
Petras409
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
07/01/15 – 09:40
The caption/text to this bus gives 1954 as entry into service. According Ken Blacker’s book RT – Story Of A London Bus, this vehicle did not enter service until June 1959, when it was delivered in green livery to Epping (EP) bus garage, some 5 years later.
Paddy John
08/01/15 – 15:24
A significant number of later RTs delivered in 1954 were not needed for service immediately, and were put into store. This was in spite of LT selling off many non-standard types and utilities in this period, such as the 65 post-war STDs to Yugoslavia, amongst others. Presumably increased traffic needs or other withdrawals of older stock (pre-war RTs to the training school?) allowed their preparation for licensing and service. There are probably lists somewhere of the RT’s which were stored for this five-year period.
London Transport 1948 AEC Regent III RT Weymann H56R
Here is a view of JXN 46, RT1081 1018 (see below) in full London Country NBC livery. She’s on parade in the Weymouth rally on 1 July 1979. She dates from 1948 and has a Weymann H56R body. At the time of the photograph, she was still in service – mainly on training duties – but is now preserved.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
17/02/14 – 07:57
I have been privileged to drive for a number of years for Peter Cartwright and Amersham & District on their running days. The Watford – Hemel section of the 302 has featured regularly for the annual August Hemel Running Day. March 30 sees the first Watford event. I’m hoping to be driving in the afternoon. Say hello if you’re there.
David Oldfield
23/02/14 – 15:24
Think you’ll find that JXN 46 is RT1018 not 1081. Used to drive it when I worked out of Tring in the early ’70s. It used to belong to Mike Lloyd of Wigan. Not sure if he’s still got it.
Keith Williams
24/02/14 – 07:46
It is indeed RT 1018, not 1081. I bought it in September 1981, and yes, I do indeed still have it. That photo was taken at Weymouth Bus Rally 1st July 1979. This was the bus’s first-ever rally and it was still owned by LCBS at the time. We rallied it from Hemel Hempstead Garage for a couple of years, then when it was withdrawn, I bought it. Of course, I didn’t live in Wigan in those days. It is currently having a bit of re-restoration, which it is entitled to after 32 years in preservation.
Mike Lloyd
25/02/14 – 06:54
Hi Mike. Pleased to know you’ve still got 1018. Can you tell me if you’re going to rally her again after her re-restoration. If so ,where? Love to see her again after all these years. Seems we’ve all moved north as I’m in Crewe now.
Keith Williams
26/02/14 – 12:08
Appologizz for the triping eeroar! I must check more carefully in future.
Pete Davies
15/09/14 – 06:57
I was just doing a bit of research on this bus, my late father Barry Neave was pictured with it sometime back in the 80’s I believe. Was just really interested in where it was and what it was doing, is it still being restored?
Celina Neave
18/09/14 – 07:50
I don’t visit this page often, so sorry for delayed reply to Keith. When she is back on the road I shall certainly take her to rallies now and then; however, restoration is proving long-drawn-out because of time constraints so I can’t say when it will be. The bus is kept at the North West Museum of Road Transport at St Helens these days but is not on display, obviously, because it’s in the workshops.
Celina – very sorry to hear that Barry is now “the late.” He was a part-time driving instructor at Hemel Hempstead and RT 1018 was “his” bus for that purpose. He was a great help, visiting other bus garages and scrounging spare parts for the bus, some of which I still have. I have loads of pics of the bus working as a trainer, but not sure if Barry is in any of them because normally he would be sitting in the saloon giving advice and instruction to the driver, so you couldn’t see him in photos. I may possibly have one of him at a rally somewhere, although he didn’t always accompany us. See above for where the bus is now, and yes, it is still under restoration – mainly things I had not restored previously, of course. Rest assured, she’s in good hands. I wouldn’t part with her for anything, having known her since 1959.
Mike Lloyd
22/09/14 – 07:12
Thank you so much for the reply Mike it meant a lot to hear some more information about dad and the busses, it was his life. If you did have any pictures of dad with the bus they would be more than gratefully received, my mum Gloria had the picture we have as I think she accompanied dad on the rally? I’d love to come and see the bus, or maybe when it’s on rally again. Thank you so much again.
Celina
04/11/14 – 17:21
Looking at this posting of RT 1018 sent me scurrying to an old photo album where I found this photo taken in the yard beside Victoria Garage [GM] round about 1950/51 when this RT had worked a relief Green Line in from St.Albans. I cannot swear to it being 1018, it could be 1013 as the writing on the back has faded plus I am standing in front of the number plate but thought it might be of interest.
Graham Crockett
26/11/14 – 06:18
This is the picture I have of dad with the bus.
Celina
16/01/15 – 09:03
Here is a photo I took of RT1018 possibly at a Cobham rally in the 90’s.
G Crockett
19/01/15 – 12:11
Re the photo taken of the RT at Victoria (GM) Garage Yard around 1950/51. 04/11/14 at 17:21 posted above by Graham Crockett. It would be RT 1013 as the batch RT 1005-RT 1014 were allocated from new to St Albans (SA) RT 1005-RT 1011 had roof route boxes whereas RT 1012-RT 1014 had the route number box in the lower down position. I was living in Albans at that time.
M Horan
21/01/15 – 15:17
Picture taken of RT 1018 in 1980 at possibly Southend Rally.
G Crockett
29/03/15 – 18:01
Celine Neave Your dad was a well respected by all. When I first started at Two Waters he was helpful to me and I have never forgotten that.
David Jenkins
07/06/15 – 06:27
I also remember 1018 from it`s days at Tring in the 70`s. I was there until it closed in `77, then went to Amersham. I may be wrong, but I seem to remember we had an RT that had an RF type steering wheel, and I think it was 1018. I also remember David Jenkins, especially when he was made up to inspector.
Brian Keating
08/07/15 – 05:39
If there was an RT with an RF steering wheel it certainly wasn’t 1018. 1018 returned to Hemel as a training bus and had an RT wheel, which of course she still does. I do not think you could actually fit an RF steering wheel to an RT as the columns are different. I remember David Jenkins, too. Sorry to say I have not so far found any pics of Barry Neave with the bus, although it was his regular vehicle. I’ll keep looking.
Mike Lloyd
06/02/17 – 10:27
Was it not one of the 34 that were sold onto LT and ended up in Norbiton Garage for the 65 till RT’s ended on 16th Oct 1975? Maybe I am confused with the passage of time.
George Chmielewski
16/03/17 – 06:24
No, it most certainly did not pass to LT. It was the first LCBS RT to be overhauled and painted into NBC green, at which time it worked from Chelsham. There were four others, two training buses (subsequently scrapped) and RTs 604 and 3461, also now preserved. 1018 was also the only one to receive a repaint into NBC green, but now it is back in its proper livery – Lincoln green.
Mike Lloyd
27/03/18 – 06:50
Happy memories of RT 1018 at rallies in the 80’s Woburn showbus etc. I hope all of the Lloyds and 1018 keeping well? Might have to pay a visit if at St Helens as mentioned in previous comments.
Mark Richardson
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
06/12/18 – 12:22
Hello Mark, didn’t see your comment until just now as I don’t visit this page very often. Yes thanks, we are all well, although the RT is in need of skilled surgery to her nearside lower deck after 37 years in preservation. I am getting on with this as time permits and she is getting better slowly. She is still in the museum at St Helens, but not on display as she is in the workshop which is not open to the public for reasons of safety. If you do come, check first that we are open (we close after Christmas until February for cleaning, maintenance and the like. If you visit on a Sunday I shall be there and I can take you up to see the workshop and the bus. It’s a long time since she was at Woburn or anywhere else for that matter, having been stored now for many years.
Rochdale Corporation 1949 AEC Regent III Weymann H33/26R
Memories of the No. 17 from Manchester Cannon Street to Rochdale in the 50’s
Mullion
Not strictly true, not the original colour scheme of the time. Good photo though!
Ian Buckley
One of the early Rochdale Regent IIIs turned over at the junction of Broadway and Middleton Road, Chadderton on May 1st 1951 after colliding with an Oldham PD1. The Rochdale bus was returning from Manchester with a full load – 55 people were injured. For years I have been trying to identify just which two buses were involved. If you know please leave a comment. The Rochdale Observer cutting has a picture of the bus lying on its side, photo credited to D Worrall.
Peter Greaves
I’ve seen a very good quality photo of this incident in the GMTS archives. That could be your next port if you’re hoping to further enquiries on this? The Rochdale bus was actually lying on its nearside on Broadway just past Hunt Lane but well before Middleton Rd, and facing towards Royton. There’s no evidence in the photo that any other vehicle was involved. It is possible that another vehicle could have come out of Hunt Lane from the right and collided with the Rochdale bus causing it to overturn, but Hunt Lane was not on an Oldham bus route. On the left at this time you may recollect there was a large coal yard served by a railway branch off the Werneth to Middleton Junction line, and this too is visible in this photo. I was talking very recently to a gent who says he knew a woman who had been travelling on the bus, and for a long time afterwards she still had her head bandaged. He seems to think the incident happened about 1957, but I’d certainly go with the date you have if it’s confirmed especially by a newspaper. This was a very serious accident and this gent thought there had been some fatalities? From the photo it actually appears that the bus was one of the 8 footer Weymanns, and a friend and I always concluded that this was probably 222 as it was the only one of the batch we had never been able to spot! Peter Gould’s Rochdale fleet list has 222 as the first of the batch to be withdrawn in 1963, but it may well have sat in the works being cannibalised for many years following the accident? On the other hand it may have been a completely different bus, and it may have been rebuilt and returned to service, but in the photo I’ve seen it looks too badly damaged. This shot has been taken from above and behind the bus and the roof appears to have become detached from the body at the rear. I was never able to gain access to the inner sanctum at Mellor St, but I feel sure there must be others out there able to throw more light on this incident,
Keith Jackson
Could you please tell me what colour the bus was that ran from Rochdale to Bacup in about 1969. Thanking you
Fiona
Rochdale Corporation buses sported a very attractive Oxford Blue and cream livery applied in a streamlined style with the blue side panels on both decks ‘swooping’ down to give an all cream front. When the ‘new look’ fronted Daimler CVG6’s and AEC Regent V’s arrived in 1953 and 1956 respectively, the tin fronts were painted blue. All were bodied by Weymann. The body style was to the traditional design which pre-dated the Orion and the curvaceous lines of this body blended superbly with the Rochdale streamlined livery. In my view the Regent V’s were some of the most attractive British buses ever built. In around 1961 Regent V 277(NDK 977) was painted in the style of livery shown above as an experiment to allow spray painting to be used to save costs. It was said the livery needed to be simplified to allow this method of painting to be adopted. The ‘Rochdale Corporation’ fleet name straddling the crest was introduced on this bus. Later in the year AEC Regal IV saloon no 12 and Daimler CVG6 238 (I think) both appeared in this style, initially with a lighter blue band. This was very quickly modified to the Oxford Blue darker standard colour. At first these vehicles seemed well received as it was something different but it was a sad day in my view when it was announced that this livery was to adopted as standard. It took to sometime for the whole fleet to be repainted and I recall that a few of the Regent III’s were the last vehicles in the old livery. After being a very smart fleet, Rochdale’s buses seemed to take on a care worn appearance towards the end of their independent life before being swallowed into SELNEC. The cream livery soon showed dirt on the lower panels in the industrial environment of a Lancashire mill town and one must question the wisdom of adopting such an inappropriate livery.
To answer Fiona by 1969 the Rochdale fleet had been absorbed into SELNEC and the buses operating on the 16 route to Bacup would have been in SELNEC orange and off-white but again it took some time for all vehicles to be repainted and there would have been cream and blue examples in the former Rochdale livery still about at this time.
Philip Halstead
I love the art-deco style of writing on the side of these vehicles.
Chris Hebbron
The accident Rochdale bus 222 was involved in was in the early 1960s and Peter Gould’s withdrawal date of 1963 would stack up. After the accident the bus was parked under a tarpaulin on the parking ground which RCT was temporarily using during the construction of the Mellor Street depot extension. (This site was opposite Hansons Spring Works located on the eastern side of Mellor Street and bordered by the River Spodden – on the southern side of the river where it passed under Mellor Street). I seem to recall that 222 was working service 3 along Milnrow Road somewhere between Kingsway and Witley Road.
David Slater
So 222 was involved in a completely different incident, wonder if this was also an overturning? That on Broadway Chadderton was just before Middleton Rd, and on route 90. The photo I saw in the GMTS archives would suggest it was nearer to 1951 given the onlookers in the photo and how they were dressed. The bus was definitely one of the postwar AEC Regent III/Weymann’s but the reason I can’t positively identify the bus here is because there isn’t that degree of definition in the photo. As I said in the earlier posting, the bus looks badly damaged, with the roof detached from the body at the rear, but in 1951 it would still have quite new, so perhaps economic to repair? Interestingly only 222 of all the Regent IIIs was withdrawn prematurely, so the indication is that this bus was returned to service. It was a matter of local folklore for many years that a 90 bus had overturned on Broadway, but nobody knew which fleet it was from, Oldham, Manchester or Rochdale, or the precise location of the accident, which only became known to me when I saw the archive photo. It might be worth another look but you have to be a member of the GMTS to gain access to their archives. I no longer am, but I know a man who is. It would be interesting to be able to get to the bottom of this incident.
Keith Jackson
Another possible clue as to the identity of the overturning Regent III. As they aged some of the batch were rebuilt with rubber mounted windows mostly at the front upper deck as per the above photo. However pics on Jasper’s link below show refurb work carried out to bus 210. This and following shot show the major work involved, as if it had been carried out by Weymann to contemporary styling being used on the Aurora body: //jasperstransportphotographs.fotopic.net/p54432950.html
Are we getting nearer I wonder?
Keith Jackson
The refurbishments look superb – and a sight better than North Western did with 253 (a contemporary PD2 in nearby Oldham) when they refurbished it.
David Oldfield
02/03/11
I believe that the vehicle involved in the Chadderton incident was 7ft 6in Regent III No 39. Subsequently it appears to have been rebodied by Weymann before being returned to service. Its interior polished wooden cappings around the windows were then of the later, rounded, style as used on the 1949-51 Weymann bodies rather than the flat style of the rest of the 31- 48 series.
Ian Holt
Hi Ian, Many thanks for the above info. I have no reason to doubt what you’re saying re 39, but is there any absolute evidence to confirm it was this bus? I jumped to the conclusion of it perhaps being 210 because of the extensive rebuilding that bus’ body received, and certainly from the only photo I’ve ever seen of the accident, the body does look very badly damaged, so much so that rebodying would be a distinct possibility. I’ve been unable to ascertain the identity of the overturner try as I might. Perhaps the more comprehensive PSV Circle or Omnibus Society lists (unfortunately not in my possession) have this information? I’ve not been able to read the Venture book on Rochdale, but maybe the info is in there? Also as Peter who initiated the topic has said, is there any evidence supporting the allegation that an Oldham PD1 was also involved in this accident?
Keith Jackson
18/04/11 – 05:00
Regarding 222, it was in a head on accident with an artic on the undulating stretch of the A58 between the road to Wardle and the road down to Smithy Bridge station and Hollingworth Lake. I believe the bus driver was killed outright and there were no passengers on it. I have some negatives on 6×9 B&W of 222 after towing to Mellor Street and before it was stripped for spares and parked on the spare land for at least a year – have a couple of negs there as well. I’m sure the accident was sometime in 1963 and could probably be found in the Rochdale Observer archives. A rear view of nearside shows the body substantially bent, and as not much older buses were being withdrawn then it was obviously not worth repairing.
I notice that the date of the photograph of 39 is shewn as 1st January 1951.
Chris Hebbron
24/04/11 – 15:54
Note many of the photograph dates are inaccurate – that one is quite close by comparison! It’s also the convention I used on my erstwhile Fotopic gallery when all I knew was that the photo was taken in 1951.
David Beilby
04/06/11 – 06:40
David, Thanks so much for the link to the photo. New Years Day 1951 not only sounds ominous but also perhaps slightly implausible as a Public Holiday? Given that the 90 was only ever in any case a peak hour service. Might suggest an element of driver culpability though…. ? Certainly looks a very nasty accident, and the photo in the GM Museum from the rear perspective looks even more devastating. I understand that there were fatalities.
Keith Jackson
05/06/11 – 14:14
The sequence of 5 photos here from the Oldham Chronicle website: A very strange accident this for a number of reasons. To have ended up on its nearside in the position the bus lies could suggest it went into a skid to the offside, and reasoning might suggest it would have tipped to the offside and turned over instead onto that side? What is evident from a couple of the photos is that bus overturned a distance before it came to rest given the marks along the carriageway? Also its positioning before the junction indicates there was no jumping of the lights, although heavy braking in less than ideal road conditions could have been contributory? In one of the photos there is just visible the rear corner of an Oldham Roe bodied bus…. Perhaps this was after all involved, and been moved away to help aid recovery of the Rochdale bus? In the case of Oldham PD3 108 overturning onto its nearside, that was much easier to explain, as it was hit at the front nearside by a tanker lorry, which then caused it to spin tipping to the nearside. The saga of Rochdale 39 still has much to it which is unknown.
Keith Jackson
07/06/11 – 09:26
A grim but fascinating set of pictures which leave as many questions as they solve. Going by the way in which the roof of the bus has been torn off “upwards” and the front section show heavy wrinkling to confirm that, the direction the vehicle took before coming to rest must have been sliding on it’s nearside and indeed the nsf mudguard is distorted to confirm. Then looking at the pattern of the fluids draining from it, it would seem the bus was travelling downhill prior to the accident. Now looking at the first picture, the just visible second bus is facing away so had it just turned right and No.39 came to grief behind it? Purely as a theory, could 39 becoming downhill maybe quite fast, saw the bus in front stopped waiting to turn right, panic braked, skidded, tried to correct but instead toppled onto the nearside and slide downhill to rest but turned through say 300 degrees as it did so? The injuries must have been dreadful and no doubt there are people alive with family memories. Maybe a letter to the local newspaper may bring some accurate clues or information.
Richard Leaman
Hi Richard, Some interesting observations. Your thoughts are the most logical. There is a possible red herring, in that the overturned bus shows Rochdale on the blinds, implying it was heading from Manchester and overturned in its direction of travel just before the junction. Yet the positioning of the overturned bus, the Oldham bus, evident liquid spillage in the junction beyond (from Photo 1 – despite the copyright text), and as you say, apparent evidence of the roadway marks from the tyres and front wing of the overturning bus suggest otherwise. The assumption it was travelling from Manchester would be an easy one to make, even if this came from contemporary reporting. However having looked at the accident from numerous aspects, my reasoning goes: I now think that the bus was travelling from the opposite direction as you say, towards Manchester in fact. The 90 route was a non-stopper between Royton and Manchester, and as there would be no more boarders, the crew may have already set the blinds for the return trip. This was not unknown in the days I remember the 90. I initially thought it unlikely the Regent had been broadsided by the Oldham bus crossing the junction either straight across Middleton Rd or turning right into it from Broadway, because it appears to have come to rest before the junction, and I assumed the evident carriageway scuffing implied it had overturned prior to it. Whereas apparent evidence now seems to have it heading the other way, and in fact overturning beyond the junction. Its otherwise nigh on impossible to explain. I have some alternative theories but they are weak ones. For the Regent to land on its nearside is also hard to explain other than by it being broadsided from the offside. If it was after all heading towards Rochdale, to land how it has done suggests it would have skidded to the offside and this would have induced offside tilting instead. The nature of the roof damage sustained would also be hard to explain, given drag rather than compression? This also seems to indicate a high speed overturning. There is a further photo in the GM Museum archives which looks to have been taken from the bedroom window of the house overlooking from the rear of the bus. There is a big offside dent on the Regent on the lower panels just behind the drivers cab. This is pretty compelling evidence it was broadsided. Other important considerations. Accident was said to have happened on 1st of May 1951, newspaper evidence seems to support this. This was a Tuesday. Route 90 operated in the morning and evening peaks only on Mondays to Fridays. It is said there were 55 injured on the bus, so a full bus. By far the predominant flow of passenger traffic was from Rochdale towards Manchester in the morning peak,reversed in the evening peak. My dad was a regular user of the route. I don’t know if there is any conclusions to be drawn from the school children present amongst the onlookers? I’m still intrigued to find out more about this accident, though fear I may be at the point of starting to bore readers with the ongoing saga! I’d welcome anyone with an interest to contact me ask Peter for my email address Next stop Oldham Chronicle and Rochdale Observer news archives.
Keith Jackson
10/06/11 – 09:47
Keith, far from being bored, I always relish a mystery like this, and I suspect other readers do too. Those who don’t can always ignore it! Please don’t deprive us of further reasoning by making it a private affair – Hercule Poirot would be proud of you!
Stephen Ford
02/07/11 – 07:07
I’m sure it has already been tried, but has anyone contacted the Police? Chadderton at the time was under the Lancashire Constabulary and not GMP as now. There must be information stored somewhere on this accident?
TonyC
02/07/11 – 11:55
Hi Tony, You’re absolutely right, that was to be my next port of call, having drawn a total blank so far with the Oldham Chronicle. Even were it is possible to produce an archived news article that could be erroneous for some of the circumstances outlined above. I’ll try both Lancs and GMP, but am wondering whether Chadderton actually came under Oldham’s rather than Lancashire’s Constabulary at the time? One observation Richard makes is that where 39 is lying, it looks as if fluids could be draining from it, but the slight downhill slope here and the one prevailing at the junction, is into the far distance of the photo. Still suggesting that it was heading towards Manchester and that on overturning its spun through over 90 degrees to suggest it might have been travelling in the opposite direction. A broadside from a right turning bus on the junction seems ever more the likely outcome?
Keith Jackson
02/07/11 – 16:21
I’d’ve thought the best place for information on the accident would be the County Records Office (sometimes known as County Archives).
Chris Hebbron
03/07/11 – 05:52
It was definitely Lancashire Constabulary. Oldham was an independent Borough Force at the time. It (Oldham) only went into Lancashire Constabulary in April 1969, along with many of the old Borough Forces in the County. They then became part of Greater Manchester Police in 1974 (I think that was the date) I know this for fact. I was in the old Rochdale Borough Force at amalgamation in 1969!
TonyC
11/07/11 – 13:56
Good Lord Tony! My brother was also a serving officer at Rochdale, but by then under GMP.
Keith Jackson
12/07/11 – 14:00
I never served with GMP. I left in July 1969 and transferred to Sussex Police. The only ‘JACKSON’ I knew was a Pete Jackson who lived Smallbridge way but that was in the ‘dying days’ of the old Rochdale Borough Force. Whilst I am typing this, does anyone have any old photos of the Rochdale buses in the old (mainly blue) livery? How I wish that camera capabilities today were available then!!
TonyC
30/07/11 – 07:54
Hi Tony, brother was Tony Jackson, served at Collyhurst, Rochdale and finally Milnrow. All under GMP. Anyhow further info just come to light concerning 39 and the overturning incident. Seems I’ve been making various assumptions that have turned out to be incorrect, e.g. placing the bus on the wrong side of the junction for a start. More to follow shortly, with a link to another photo of the incident which has helped to explain quite a few things.
Keith Jackson
Re Rochdale 39 and its overturning. Thanks are due in no small way to both John Holmes and Fr Norman Price in helping to unravel the details of this accident. Fr Norman’s website “Delta 64″ links to a further photo here:
Keith Jackson
21/08/11 – 16:28
Unfortunately, I’ve trawled the site and can’t find any connected pictures?? Any ‘clues’?
TonyC
22/08/11 – 11:32
Here it is Tony. In case (as I just did) you get directed to the homepage, the pic is on page 49. Once there you need to scroll down the page. //www.fireflash-delta64.co.uk/cca49.html
Keith Jackson
23/08/11 – 09:43
Thanks Keith. Excellent picture too!
TonyC
23/08/11 – 09:45
Keith Thank you for linking the picture which is interesting. I really have never been to the area so have no clear idea of the road layout or directions but, this later picture does show an impact on the offside although I would have thought not so heavy as to be enough to cause the severity of the resulting accident. So, maybe the driver of 39 did indeed make a big swerve or avoiding action and the fully laden bus just fell under the influence of the overall weight/balance. However…all of the crowd “interest” is on 39 yet, in none of the pictures is there any sign of the other bus. Surely if it had broadsided 39, the front/cab would be badly damaged and hardly likely to have continued around the corner and parked up neatly. Why is it not visible in the latest picture when logically it would be somewhere in the middle of the road and heavily damaged as well? So now we need a drawing of the junction, the directions, an idea of gradient and some detail or picture of the second vehicle. That might well be a problem though!
Richard Leaman
23/08/11 – 14:16
I agree, Richard. Having now looked more closely at the picture, there is little or no damage to the offside apart from the ‘popping out of windows’ which is to be expected. If the driver swerved violently to his right, wouldn’t that cause momentum to make the bus unstable and fall to its left? If that is the case, then one would think the vehicle or whatever causing the vehicle to swerve violently right came from the left of 39. As the No 90 Route didn’t deviate from Broadway (into Chadderton) then this ‘offending’ vehicle came from the direction of Chadderton causing the driver of 39 to swerve to the right with subsequent overturn to the left. I think it is fair to accept that 39 was ‘Manchester’ bound? Any comments?
TonyC
24/08/11 – 08:11
Having looked at all the picture links, I wonder if the sequence of events was something like this : Oldham Corp heading SW along Broadway waiting to turn right into Middleton Road. RC 39 following down Broadway heading to Manchester. Then either Oldham starts to turn, but brakes suddenly for bike or similar cutting across his bows. RC 39 closing rapidly has no option but to head into the insufficient gap on nearside (with nearside wheels well into the gutter), whereupon offside just ahead of rear wheel connects with rear nearside corner of Oldham. Alternatively, RC 39 may have been passing tight on nearside of Oldham Corp, assuming it would remain stationary. Instead it turned sharply at the crucial moment, causing the pivot of the nearside rear overhang to close the gap (3 or 4 inches?) as it did so. This would explain the damage just ahead of the rear offside wheel, and also why the slightly visible Oldham vehicle is parked with its rear towards the incident, rather than the front as one expect if it had driven broadside into RC 39.
Stephen Ford
24/08/11 – 08:13
TonyC. I’ve had a look at Google Earth Street View to see what the junction looks like now. As anyone local will know, completely different! Now a big multi lane junction, it does confirm that the site is near enough flat so whilst the old pictures appear to show sloping ground, it must have been only slight. My theory then is this..39 is crossing the junction and is hit fairly gently on the offside by another vehicle coming from the right. Driver 39 reacts by swerving right causing the bus to sway left and topple on to it’s near side. The damage in the pictures gives a misleading impression. The roof must have been pulled back to get the passengers out as all are cleared from the scene before the pictures were taken. These days, Police and Rescue forces would have cleared the onlookers away long ago but in 1951 things were different so the crowd is just concerned/excited onlookers. What that does NOT explain though is as above, where is the other bus??? I doubt we shall ever know.
Richard Leaman
24/08/11 – 08:23
Apologies gents, but I thought I’d already posted the following info, along with the proper link to the photo, but it seems that might have become corrupted? Anyhow further info for which I thank John Holmes: Rochdale 39 was working the 5.55pm 90 service ex Manchester (Stevenson Sq) on Tuesday 1st May 1951. It is fairly certain that it jumped the lights at the Middleton Road/Broadway junction and was struck by Oldham PD1/Roe no. 230 crossing en route to Mills Hill on the 3 route. There was only 1 injury reported on the Oldham bus which could have been the driver. This appears to have been a high speed collision the impact from which I reckon would easily have been sufficient to turn 39 over. Imagine the forces involved in two 7 ton buses both travelling at say 25mph where one (Oldham 230) impacts on the rear offside of the other (39), surely causing it to spin and overturn? To recap, link below to the sequence of photos from the Oldham Chronicle website, the first of which shows the rear of an Oldham Roe bodied bus: at this link The driver of Rochdale 39 was William Chadwick of Albert St, Whitworth, and the Conductor was James Halstead (aged 22), of Market St, Shawforth. 1st May 1951 was also Mr J.C.Franklin’s first day as the new General Manager at Rochdale, having succeeded C.T.Humpidge. John adds that Oldham 230 was working the 6.06pm journey from Oldham Market Place to Mills Hill. The driver was believed to be Billy Fish. The bus in front was working a special from Platts works on Featherstall Rd (dep.6.06pm), also on the 3 service to Mills Hill, and this had just cleared the lights at Broadway/Middleton Road, and stopped at the Chadderton Cemetery gates, when the accident happened. The driver of this bus, Tommy Trigg (later Inspector) saw the accident in his mirror and ran back to help. What he found at the scene must have been pretty traumatic, with 55 passengers trapped inside 39, lying on its side. As I may have written in an earlier posting, Rochdale 39 was rebodied in virtually identical style, and re-entered service enjoying an uneventful life thereafter until withdrawal in 1965. I very likely rode on it on short workings of the 9c from Rochdale to Thornham, being totally unaware of its sinister past.
Keith Jackson
24/08/11 – 11:45
Chaceley Humpidge- a name to conjure with: he was later at Bradford and then Sheffield: I assume the cream and blue at Sheffield was not brought with him from Rochdale- I think it predated him: and then the pale blue in Bradford: he worked with some pretty good liveries! We haven’t considered the General Managers on this site, but they must have made some influential decisions, especially in the golden years of the 50’s and 60’s.
Joe
24/08/11 – 15:56
Thanks, Keith, for the full explanation. As you say, it must have been a fairly traumatic scene. There was mention in a previous post of fatalities on No 39 but no mention in your ‘report’. Now, what’s the next one to investigate? !
TonyC
24/08/11 – 15:57
Fantastic Keith, you should be known as Keith Poirot! Joe, what about the Directors of Barton Transport for there ingenuity etc.
Roger Broughton
24/08/11 – 20:52
Barton Transport…not sure. Long ago, I used to ride the Nottingham-Leicester service occasionally. I always thought that they had stuck bits of an American diner on the buses to make them look “modern” but realise now that they were probably Duple bodies! Once you got going along the A46, things settled into a steady barking from the exhaust, as if someone had souped up some ancient rig or perhaps just modified the silencer to make them seem faster. What were these double-deckers- were they really anything special, or a bit mutton/lamb?
Joe
28/12/11 – 18:21
Someone asking which A.E.C. Regent was it that overturned on the 90 route, it was fleet No. 39 a 7’6″ Weyman bodied bus Reg. No, GDK 139 Also bus No.222, this was involved in a head-on collision on the No.3 route to Littleborough on a workers extra early one morning in either 1963 or 64. The collision occurred in the dip Smallbridge just before Tithe Barn Close, it collided with a lorry carrying Exide Battery casings heading towards Rochdale. The driver of the lorry was decapitated and the driver of No 222 was trapped in his cab for some period of time. My memory of this is a bit hazy now but I think the H.G.V. driver was the only fatality. No.222 was dragged to the temporary bus park which was in use at this time on Mellor St. due to the rebuilding of the running shed and here it lay as the chassis was substantially twisted on the O/S front. The vehicle eventually being towed away for scrap.
Douglas Neal
29/08/12 – 07:40
I’ve enjoyed reading these very thorough reports and observations and now I’ve seen the pictures, I’d like to ask a few questions. Wasn’t Broadway in 1951 four lanes and de-restricted? Also 1) The visibility at this junction was always good, so how did the driver of the 3 not see the 90 on his left? 2) The 3 is actually on the level but the 90 is climbing a gentle gradient but this makes me think that the 90 was going much faster than 25mph.
Mike Franks
29/08/12 – 07:56
Just to add to the above information, I was the conductress on the 222 on the day of the accident. The bus was traveling to Littleborough via Halifax Road. We were advised to travel out of service due to the weather conditions. So at that time there had been only myself and the driver on board. It was 1963 January or February and the snow was thick. As I recall an articulated lorry came over the brow outside the Greengate public house on the wrong side of the road and hit us head on. I am aware the driver of the lorry died at the scene. My driver was badly injured and I was knocked unconscious for a period of time. The bus had tilted to a dangerous position and was propped either by a emergency vehicle or other vehicle.
Elaine O’Reilly
29/08/12 – 10:24
Just a slight digression Elaine, on a far less distressing theme, but I daresay if you were a conductress in perhaps 1960 onwards you will also recall working on numbers 201 – 205. These five lovely vehicles came over the Pennines to join the Samuel Ledgard fleet at Otley, Leeds and Bradford depots and I worked on them all, but 201 mainly, and they were classic machines indeed.
Chris Youhill
25/01/14 – 08:07
I conducted then drove for Rochdale Corporation from 1965 until the SELNEC takeover then onto December 1973 with SELNEC. I conducted on all the Regent IIIs that were still in service including the last of the 7′ 6″ wide batch. My main memory of these narrow buses was that they had a deep recess on the platform where the conductor could stand out of the way of boarding and alighting passengers. The wider 8′ 00″ types didn’t have this recess and not infrequently I got my toes trodden on, including once by a large gentleman who had a false leg (needless to say that was the one on my toes). When I got to driving the Regents, only 221 of the GDK batch remained in service but all the 223-232 series, HDK23-32 were still working. I passed my PSV on 230 and this type were and still are my all-time favourites. Very pleasant to drive, with light steering and good acceleration and pre-selector gears. Happy memories of great buses.
Paul G
26/01/14 – 17:23
Talking of bus accidents of yore my grandfather was killed by a bus in January 1940 at Factory End, Summit, Littleborough when a tyre of a bus burst and it ran into him and also a schoolboy who was there also at the tragic scene. I am into family history and my grandfathers name was Thomas Dawson who worked on the railways. Would it be possible to find out more about the accident and also what bus it was.
Andrew Wylie
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25/12/20 – 06:37
re. Andrew Wylie’s comment of 26/01/14 – 17:23
As nobody has answered this, may I add the following: The accident occurred about 4.50pm on Thursday 11th January 1940; it was growing dark; the bus was a Rochdale Corporation bus; it was travelling from Summit to Littleborough; the nearside front tyre burst; the driver apparently losing control of the vehicle, which mounted the pavement. Thomas Dawson (57) died along with Geoffrey Cryer (11) and Hillary Hudson (12) died in Rochdale Infirmary later of injuries sustained. (These details from Rochdale Observer Saturday 13th January 1940). An inquest was held on Monday 15th January 1940 at Birch Hill Hospital, in which the County Coroner exonerated the driver. Dawson’s widow was quoted as saying “I think you ought to know this: I do not blame the driver in any way.” (The two reports are on the British Newspaper Archive in the Rochdale Observer for Saturday 13th and Wednesday 17th January 1940). Mike Baron
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