Tag: Weymann

Halifax Corporation – Albion Nimbus – RJX 251 – 251

 
Copyright Roger Cox

Halifax Corporation Transport and Joint Omnibus Committee
1963
Albion Nimbus NS3AN
Weymann B31F

Here is a shot of Halifax Nimbus No. 251 in Elmwood Garage repainted for service with a new owner – I cannot now remember who that was. Despite its frailty and engine unreliability, I quite liked the little Nimbus.When I went to Halifax in 1964 I had only a motorcycle driving licence, and I learned to to drive on four (should that be six?) wheels during my lunch breaks. Initially I went out with the wonderful HPTD instructor, Arthur Brearley, in the old 1947 PD2 training bus, which, by then, had worn off most of its gearbox synchromesh, and I found this extremely heavy to drive. When this was not available one day, we had a Nimbus, and I took to this instantly. The six speed gearbox, apparently detested by most Halifax drivers, was easy to use with a light touch, which was essential if the middle gate was not to be missed. After passing my test, one of the routes I used to cover as a driver in the evenings was the 46 to Heptonstall, which, because of the unbelievably tight reversing point at the village – a narrow slot between two houses off an equally narrow road; even the mirrors had to be flattened against the bus to get in – a conductor was carried on the 31 seat Nimbus. The little Albion was certainly not up to the rigorous task of Yorkshire Pennine bus work, but it was a nice little thing to drive, and I renewed my acquaintance with the type some years later when I did a bit of moonlighting for North Downs Rural Transport.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

13/10/11 – 06:08

I know very little I’m afraid about the technicalities and operating realities of the Albion Nimbus – but I must say that this immaculate repaint to the order of a new owner says volumes about an operator who knows what a dignified livery is all about – its quite simply beautiful. If I didn’t know otherwise I’d say that it was heading for “The Garden of England” and the East Kent company in the good old days.

Chris Youhill

13/10/11 – 10:20

This vehicle was sold to Booth and Fisher, keen Albion Nimbus users. It survived to be taken over with that fleet by South Yorkshire PTE in 1976 and was even given PTE fleet number 1059.
253 of the batch was sold to Baddeley Brothers of Holmfirth and was still in the fleet when they were taken over by West Yorkshire PTE (as of course Halifax had been), although I don’t believe it was still in service.
258 was sold from a Joint Omnibus Committee to a municipality (Warrington), then to an Urban District Council (Ramsbottom) who in turn were absorbed into SELNEC PTE.
250 is still with us today, having spent many years working for Harvey’s at Mousehole. It survived long enough to be taken over by the post-deregulation Western National.
A batch of vehicles with a truly fascinating history!

David Beilby

13/10/11 – 11:39

256 also went to Baddeley Bros. Three others went to Wiles of (I think) Port Seton in E. Lothian but not sure which ones.

Eric

13/10/11 – 11:40

Another of the batch was sold to Wiles of Port Seaton near Edinburgh,I cannot remember what its number was.

Philip Carlton

13/10/11 – 11:42

Nimbus RJX 251 was sold to Booth & Fisher of Halfway near Sheffield. I believe it’s true to say that all or most of the Nimbuses were repainted by HPT for their new owners. For the record, they were disposed of as follows:
250: Harvey’s, Mousehole, Cornwall (now preserved).
251: Booth & Fisher, Halfway.
252: Wooliscroft (Silver Service), Darley Dale.
253/256: Baddeley Bros., Holmfirth.
254/257/259: Wiles, Port Seton.
255: Halifax Corporation Welfare Department (fitted with nearside wheelchair lift).
258: Warrington Corporation (later to Ramsbottom U.D.C, and then SELNEC)

I was still at junior school when these were delivered in 1963, and I well remember coming out of school after a school prize giving concert, and one turning up at the stop on the route 2 Northowram service. Not yet having discovered ‘Buses Illustrated’ I had no knowledge about what was happening in the bus world until I actually saw it, and the appearance of new buses was always unexpected and exciting.
I noted immediately the Albion badges, and the ultra modern curved windscreen – the first in the fleet and in total contrast to the earlier flat fronted Leopards and Worldmasters. Inside they were very tidy and bright, with flush light cream formica from floor to ceiling, instead of the usual MCW utilitarian painted metal.
As I took my seat, another Nimbus passed in the opposite direction, and as I got up to alight at Stump Cross another was turning into Kell Lane on the 33 to Shibden. They were everywhere !
Despite apparently having a four-cylinder version of the Tiger Cub engine, the sound effects were pure vintage Albion, sounding to me more like coal wagons. They had a characteristic nose down, tail up appearance, which seemed to increase with time.
Drivers always seemed to be struggling with them – especially the gearbox. They were hopelessly underpowered for the local mountainous terrain, though were capable of eventually getting up to a fair old speed on more level stretches. It was when they were at speed, especially coming down the hills and well loaded that the trouble really started. The brakes were apparently hopelessly inadequate and temperamental, and there were many heart stopping moments.
Although originally intended to provide feeder services from the various hilltop villages to the main road double deck routes, it just never really happened. They spent so much time in the workshops during the day being repaired and adjusted, that when they were released as available for service, usually during the afternoon peak, they just went out on to the next available duty, which would most likely have required something a bit more substantial. Consequently they were overloaded and thrashed unmercifully by drivers who hated them, and suffered as a result.
They were all sold off after three or four years and replaced by seven shortened, narrow Reliances with Pennine bodies.
I am surprised at Roger’s comments about enjoying driving Nimbuses, as all the older drivers I ever spoke to – without exception – detested them with a passion !
I also recall going on a transport society visit to Crich on a new Halifax Loline in 1967. We had arranged to call on Mr. Woolliscoft at Darley Dale to inspect his wonderful Silver Service fleet – including the withdrawn AEC Q-type. He had just acquired Nimbus 252 and it was parked in the back of his depot, nosed in towards the wall. We asked if it would be possible to bring it out to be photographed next to the Loline, and he agreed willingly. He climbed into its cab, started it up, and then attempted to select reverse. The bus lunged forwards towards the wall, and he hit the brakes – which fortunately worked on this occasion. He stirred the lever around and tried again – same result. And again, and again ! Finally, with the front panels almost touching the wall, and its owner red faced and cursing, it was decided that the only way would be for us all to push it out of the depot and across the road, and I think we then pushed it back !
I always found it difficult to believe that they had Weymann bodies. The were totally unlike anything the MCW companies had ever built, and one might have expected a sort of short, narrow version of the familiar ‘Hermes’ body similar to the Leopards and Worldmasters. Instead they were almost copies of the ones built by Harrington for Western Welsh. They were very neat looking vehicles.
I liked them though nonetheless, but then this was a few years before I became a driver, so I only experienced them as a enthusiastic passenger.

John Stringer

13/10/11 – 11:43

Albions – much neglected due to their early demise after their take over by Leyland in 1951. They should be remembered more fondly than perhaps they are, being side-lined into niches by Leyland. [The Aberdonian was a cheap light-weight version of a cheap light-weight version!!! ie of the Tiger Cub and was reviled as such.]
The Albion Victor VT21L was a Bedford SB13 clone with the Leyland 370 and a six speed gearbox. Generally regarded as much the superior beast, it was too expensive and too late to knock Bedford or Ford off their pedestals – and there were still Commer Avengers around. After this it was down hill all the way, although like the Leyland Panther, they still had success overseas where the home market didn’t work.
Booth and Fisher. A superb independent which ran by the end of my road on the Sheffield/Derbyshire border when I was a boy.

David Oldfield

13/10/11 – 17:05

When the Nimbuses were in service at Halifax, the bulk of the fleet consisted of Leylands, and changing gear with a PD2, even more so with a PD3, and exceedingly more so with the early Leopards, required the application of a certain degree of brute force. Also, it was not possible to miss the desired gate on the Leyland four speed synchromesh box. The six speed constant mesh Nimbus gearbox was the extreme opposite, and gear changing, which required double declutching, could be undertaken with the light pressure of a couple of fingers on the lever, and this was essential if the centre gate was to be detected. The gearstick did have rather long travel, and I have heard the characteristics of the Albion box described by unsympathetic persons as “stirring porridge with a knitting needle”. The unpopularity of the Nimbuses was largely due to the total contrast of its light touch constant mesh gearbox with the heavier synchromesh boxes of the Leylands and AECs, or the even easier to drive AEC and Daimler preselectors.

Roger Cox

14/10/11 – 11:34

Was two of the batch painted in reverse livery and more comfortable seats for private hires.?

Philip Carlton

14/10/11 – 14:50

All the Nimbuses were delivered in conventional bus livery. The following year two Willowbrook-bodied Leopard DP’s arrived (269/270) which had the cream and orange areas reversed. Shortly after this Nimbuses 250 & 251 had their seats retrimmed with the same moquette as the Leopards and had headrests fitted. They were then repainted into the new DP livery. However, whereas the Leopards and later Reliance DP’s had polished metal trim above and below the central orange band, the Nimbuses had to have black lining painted on, as on the normal bus livery. On their withdrawal, some seats from both 250 & 251 were removed and fitted to new short Reliance replacement 252, though it was in bus livery. (The Nimbuses seated 31, but the Reliances seated 39). What was then used to reseat the Nimbuses for sale I do not know.

John Stringer

23/01/13 – 14:34

RJX 258_2

Sorry about the very late entry to this discussion about the Halifax Nimbi, but attached is a shot of 258 when it operated for Ramsbottam U.D.C.
I thought I had a shot of one of the other Halifax ones at Booth & Fisher, but it was one of the ex-Western Welsh ones.
Here in Australia the Nimbus was as successful as in UK, Rockhampton City Council in Central Queensland had six, 3 with Athol Hedges bodies and 3 bodied by Stewart & Sons of Bundaberg. They lasted into the mid-1970’s and a few saw further service with schools.
I’ll post a photo of the Ramsbottam one at the Stubbins Lane depot in 1969.

Ian Lynas

23/01/13 – 15:35

To see how unreliable these were just read the books by Geoffrey Hilditch who was responsible for them at Halifax. Aldershot and District borrowed one from Devon General and used it on their route 66 shadowed by one of their Falcons. They didn’t buy any!

Paragon

25/01/13 – 06:43

“PAYE” signs . . . you don’t see those anymore, do you? Halifax’s must have been amongst the more elaborate: an internally-illuminated glass covered by a drop-down flap – or as here, a slide down insert. At the time I thought YWD buses were very inferior with their black-on-yellow perspex flip-up/down boards behind the nearside windscreen – I think the KHD-series Leopards might have also had an illuminated PAYE sign to the rear of the entrance. The first time I saw a Leyland National (I) it had both its PAYE displays – to the left of the destination, and to the rear of the door – lit: wow! such modernity . . . and that I think was the last time I ever saw them in use. So: were these things ever a legal requirement, or just a passing fad? and if they weren’t a legal requirement why did operators spend so much cash specifying illuminated signs that were never used?

Philip Rushworth

25/01/13 – 12:33

Well, I guess at a time when PAYE was not universal (in fact quite unusual in urban areas) operators thought that signs (elaborate or not)might speed up the process if intending passengers were alerted to have their (hopefully correct) money ready as they got on. As we all know, that was a lost cause. Many city operators went over to “no change given” to save the time spent faffing about with change. And we are all familiar with the tedious process as a row of people board, each in turn putting his/her shopping, buggy and parcels down and then ferreting in the wallet, purse or handbag for cash, collecting the ticket, putting the wallet, purse or handbag away again and then collecting their worldly possessions together so that the pantomime could start all over again with the next “customer”. (The essential of a passenger is that he travels. The essential of a customer is that he pays.) Of course twerly passes have speeded things up a bit – but not much.

Stephen Ford

26/01/13 – 06:28

See the posting of PMT 130 here  PMT 130 for that Operator’s early design of Pay as you Enter sign on the front panel.

Ian Wild

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

11/02/16 – 09:04

RJX 251 ended up after the stint with SYPTE as the Chesterfield Cricket Club tour bus. We at the club have just obtained a picture for the club house in Queens Park. Does anybody know what happened to RJX after it left our ‘care’

Vernon

Harveys (Mousehole) – Albion Nimbus – RJX 250


Copyright Ian Wild

Harveys, Mousehole, Cornwall
1963
Albion Nimbus NS3AN
Weymann B31F

This former Halifax Nimbus found its way down to deepest Cornwall where local Operator Harveys operated it on their share of the Penzance to Mousehole service which was joint with Western National. The route negotiated narrow streets and sharp corners in Mousehole and this little bus must have been ideal for the service. The photograph was taken on 13th June 1974 so Harveys managed to run it despite all the shortcomings of the type. Mind you, Halifax is rather more hilly!

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

27/04/12 – 07:30

Harveys certainly put it to good use as it was still in the fleet when they were taken over by Western National in 1988. It even operated for them although unfortunately when I visited Penzance in that year it was laid up with a defective gearbox. Spares were not that easy to come by by then!
It was subsequently preserved but I don’t think it’s been too active in recent years.

David Beilby

27/04/12 – 07:31

This bus survives in preservation and has been restored to Halifax colours.

Chris Hough

27/04/12 – 07:33

Halifax purchased these Albions for the route out to Hepstonstall where there was minimum clearance. At least two of the batch were painted in reverse livery for private hires.

Philip Carlton

27/04/12 – 08:41

Great to see this bus in Mowzell! Having taken a black & white photo of this in Penzance in the late 1960s, I’m pleased to see that it is in a blue livery as I had always wrongly remembered it as being green!

Paul Haywood

27/04/12 – 10:23

How attractive this wee bus looks in the very smart blue and white livery shown here. What a pity the Albion Nimbus was such a stinker in service – one lasting for 25 years, as David relates, must be a national record! My only personal knowledge of the Nimbus is the extremely unflattering remarks made about it by staff at Maidstone & District’s Central Works, where it was regarded as a joke in the worst possible taste.
This posting raises again, however, the subject of lightweight/small capacity vehicles, and the inability of major manufacturers ever to make one that proved itself in service to the satisfaction of of operators. I’ve re-read the postings on the Guy GS; there isn’t one on the Dennis Falcon which found some favour with Aldershot & District, (unsurprising), but with very few others. Why not?

Roy Burke

27/04/12 – 10:28

The Western National contingent was Bristol SUS’s, and before that Beadle re-bodied Bedford OB’s (or possibly OWB’s).

Stephen Ford

27/04/12 – 11:38

Bizarre, Roy. I was contemplating making a similar comment myself – so now I will! In earlier time Western National ran Dennis Aces (or was it Maces?) on the Mowzell. I’m certainly of the heavyweight fraternity and full-sized light and medium weights just not cut it. As you say, the problem is when you need something of small dimension. The Guy GS, and probably contemporary Falcon, were far better engineered than any Mercedes (the better end of the modern market) let alone an IVECO or Renault.
The Tranny is too small, but better engineered than most. [Against all the odds and expectations, Luton and District got over a millions miles of reliable service from their 16 seat Bread Vans.] Unfortunately, cutting a Bristol LH down – which in theory should have given you a “heavy” small bus – didn’t work either. Probably the worst thing I’ve ever driven was an LH/ECW 25 seater – ex Blue Saloon, Guildford.

David Oldfield

28/04/12 – 07:39

Funny David should mention the Bristol LH, shortly after I left Percy Main for pastures new with Armstrong Galley, we took delivery of a Bristol LHS-305 with Plaxton C35F body, which soon became known as the ‘Stotty Box’ (stott is a Geordie expression for bounce) it was bad enough in dry conditions, but in the wet it was like trying to drive a mobile trampoline on an ice rink

Ronnie Hoye

28/04/12 – 07:40

When I was a Traffic Clerk at HPTD, I spent quite a few hours in the Halifax Nimbuses when learning to drive psvs in January 1965, and I always liked them, a view not shared by the majority of the Halifax drivers, more used to the brute force technique required of the Leopards and Titans in the fleet. I often drove on the second half of late turns on the 46 Heptonstall route, which seemed always difficult to cover, probably because of the unpopularity of the Nimbus. Despite the midget proportions of the Nimbus, the 46 route was conductor operated to enable the unbelievably tight reversing point at Heptonstall to be negotiated without major restyling of the bodywork. Later, the route was extended further into the village on a loop terminal working that allowed the operation of full sized saloons, and the Nimbuses were no longer required for Heptonstall, though some were retained for a while for the very rural 60 and 61 services to Mill Bank and Beehive. Some five years later, I used to drive the almost identical ex Western Welsh Nimbuses at weekends for North Downs of Forest Green.

Roger Cox

28/04/12 – 07:41

Unfavourable comments about the Bristol LHS are something I thoroughly agree with my experience of the type came after I joined Lincolnshire Road Car in 1991 at that time they had two with ECW bodies ex LCBS and at least one with Marshall body ex Gash of Newark.
They were all very unpleasant to drive with heavy steering, if anything heavier than the longer LH, the gear change on both was horribly stiff and imprecise the brakes like most Bristols was their only saving grace. Later another one appeared this with a Plaxton coach body and joy oh joy power assisted steering which life somewhat easier, the ride on all was lively to say the least. Overall eminently forgettable vehicles.

Diesel Dave

28/04/12 – 08:59

Although Mr Hilditch was not a fan of the Nimbus the replacement vehicles were roughly the same size. These were a batch of very short AEC Reliances with Pennine bodywork which looked almost identical to the Nimbuses. These AECs lasted until the advent of the PTE.

Chris Hough

28/04/12 – 17:07

During my time at E.C.O.C. in Cambridge (1972-75) there were several Bristol LH’s and one LHS. they were used on OMO route 139 from Histon/Impington to the New Addenbrooke’s Hospital. Every one had extremely heavy clutch pedal operation, and as in previous comments they were not at all popular with the drivers. The LHS was referred to as ‘The Baby Bouncer’ as part of the journey was along Mill Road past the Maternity Hospital. On a return visit to Cambridge in 1997, I noticed that they were using one of the LH’s as a driver training vehicle.

Norman Long

29/04/12 – 08:03

I drove a Bristol LHS/Plaxton 35 seater at J. J. Longstaff of Mirfield. I never liked the way the pedals came out of the floor as in a car. One Sunday we used it on the service from Mirfield to Dewsbury and my clippie Kathleen referred to it as the sardine can.

Philip Carlton

01/05/12 – 19:52

Thanks, Ronnie Hoye! Can’t get that wonderful expression Stotty Box out of my head: it’ll keep me in smiles for months to come!

Ian Thompson

03/05/12 – 07:58

In the companies where I worked, the LHS was known as the “Baby Bouncer”.

Roger Cox

04/06/12 – 17:08

Well I passed my PSV test on this very bus and had the privilege of driving her between Mouzel and Penzance many times. I am Vincent Harveys son and I now live in Australia.
My dad and uncle ALWAYS kept her in top order. Glad to know she’s being cared for still.
By the way, the family business was sold to Grenville Motors of Camborne.

Nick Harvey

10/05/18 – 05:47

I now own this Nimbus and it has returned to Cornwall for the first time in twenty years. She has fallen on hard times but will hopefully be returning to the road next year. Can’t wait to take her home to Mousehole.

Steve Cocks

11/05/18 – 06:40

I visited Mousehole on Sunday 9 June 2013 travelling on the First Devon and Cornwall service 6 bus from Penzance.
At the time it was the Mercedes-Benz Vario type that was used on the service because of the tight turns and narrow streets of the village. On the morning of our visit there wasn’t a suitable bus available for the service and so an Optare Solo was used. However, this type wasn’t able to negotiate the full route as it was too wide/too long so had to terminate at the “The Old Coastguard” a hotel a little way short of the normal terminus.
The Solo ran until the 1115 trip from Penzance/1143 from Mousehole after which a Vario became available commencing with the 1215 service from Penzance/1243 service from Mousehole.
I took a few photographs of the Vario as it made its journey in the narrow part of the village which show the challenge the buses and drivers have. I don’t know what vehicles they are using these days. www.ipernity.com/doc/

David Slater

14/05/18 – 07:16

Glad to know she’s in safe hands, Steve. Keep us posted on progress, won’t you/

Chris Hebbron

14/08/20 – 06:29

RJX 250 as she is now. Mechanical work is progressing well with the braking system overhauled gearbox removed to repair clutch. Blue undercoat has started to be applied. Hopefully back to Mousehole in 2021.

Steve Cocks

North Downs – Albion Nimbus – WKG 48 – 19

WKG 48
WKG 37

North Downs Rural Transport
1961
Albion Nimbus NS3AN
Weymann DP30F

John Wylde’s initial involvement with bus operation occurred with the Orpington Rural Transport Association which operated a service between Biggin Hill and Orpington from 1963. Wylde departed Association shortly afterwards and began running services as North Downs Rural Transport between Orpington and Croydon, with journeys later serving the then new development at Forestdale, Addington. In 1969 North Downs acquired the Mitchell’s coaching business that ran rural services from Warnham into Horsham. Then, In October 1970, A.T. Brady of Forest Green retired and his routes between Horsham, Forest Green and Guildford were taken over by North Downs and the Brady livery of brown and cream was adopted for “new” arrivals in the fleet. To complement the assorted acquired vehicles Wylde bought a trio of ex Western Welsh Albion Nimbus saloons, WKG 34/37/48, and numbered these 17/18/19. The first and last received the brown livery, but WKG 37 remained in Western Welsh red to the end of operations which occurred very suddenly on 17 April 1972. The pictures show WKG 48 in Horsham Carfax in October 1971. Behind it , operating the Horsham – Ewhurst – Forest Green route, is Tillingbourne Guy GS MXX 382, which had been hired in to cover mechanical problems at Forest Green, a portent of what was to come. The unrepainted Nimbus WKG 37 is seen at Rusper on the poorly patronised meandering rural service between Horsham and Crawley, a route that was withdrawn some months before the collapse of the business.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

PMT – AEC Reliance – 693 AEH – SN7693


Copyright Ian Wild

Potteries Motor Traction
1957
AEC Reliance 470
Weymann B44F

This is one of many AEC Reliance 470 with standard BET style Weymann bodies (B44F) operated by PMT. This particular example dates from 1957 denoted by the 7 prefix to the fleet number. Allocated to Milton Depot at the time, it has come to grief sliding into a ditch adjacent to some road works whilst on an inward journey on the 43 from the village of Stanley to Hanley – which is the main town of the Stoke on Trent conurbation. Milton Depot had an allocation of about 20 buses, mainly single decks for services such as the one shown plus three lowbridge Atlanteans and I think three MCW highbridge Leyland PD3/4 for the Hanley to Abbey Hulton services. Inside the depot was a survivor – engineless AEC Regal ex fleet number S315 KEH 608 which was in use as the staff canteen. It later went to Hollis of Queensferry for preservation – wonder what happened to it? Going back to SN7693, I remember a call we took concerning a bus on fire somewhere out in the Staffordshire countryside. It turned out to be SN7680 of the same batch but by the time we reached it in a narrow country lane all that remained was a chassis – and some burnt grass banks either side of the road.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

These were the last batch of this type of body they had stick operated doors, Newcastle garage finished up with SN7688 which I would drive often as I thought it was a much better bus than the new Reliances we had with Alexander bodies, it had a good exhaust on it too.

Michael Crofts

Strange you should mention stick operated doors because Trent’s Tiger Cubs of the 1950’s had them. I remember thinking they had two gear sticks! The one to the right of the driver was forward when the doors were closed and then pulled back (a good pull was required!) and this pulled a flexible wire through a tube to open the doors, which were a mixture of jack-knife and two-piece. I often wondered if many fleets specified this apparatus. It fell out of favour by the end of the 50’s when something more sophisticated was felt necessary!

Chris Barker

Sheffield Transport amassed quite a fleet of Leyland Leopard Coaches between 1959 and 1961 with Weymann Fanfare, ECW and Burlingham bodywork. I did not have much cause to travel on them but I do remember that some, at least, (including the Weymann?) had this stick operation to their doors. These were full coaches with proper, heavy, coach doors – in the days when no coach had air assisted doors.

David Oldfield

My recollection is that earlier PMT Weymann bodied Reliances SN5573-5612 had electrically operated doors. I think lever operated doors commenced with SN6627-6646 and continued right through single deck deliveries including the 34 Albion Aberdonians until the ‘Jubilee’ batch SL801-810 when power operation recommenced. We avoided OMO conversions on lever door vehicles for as long as possible and of course the Aberdonians were never modified for OMO.
David mentions the lever operated doors on the Sheffield Leopards and I can recall a trip out to Bakewell on one of the B fleet Weymann Fanfare vehicles when fairly new (probably early 1960) where a friend and I sat on the front nearside seat and assisted with operating the door by hand as the driver was having difficulty with the lever operation from the cab!! The Fanfare vehicles were never modified to power operation whereas the Burlingham and ECW batches were later converted for OMO which included power operated doors.

Ian Wild

All the AEH reg batch AECs had the stick doors along with all the Albions.

Michael Crofts

With the delivery of 25 Alexander bodied Reliances in 1961, this brought a total to 150 of the 30 foot Reliances at PMT, most having Weymann bodies apart from another 10 Willowbrook bodied ones.

Michael Crofts

10/12/11 – 14:58

There were also a few Albion versions with this body operating Chell to Longton at this time. All three, Leyland, AEC and Albion had their own distinctive engine sound.
Anyone know who made the engines for the Albion?

Mr Anon

11/12/11 – 06:57

The Albions would have been Aberdonians – light-weight Leyland Tiger Cubs. The lightweight was in axle and chassis construction. They both shared the same Leyland Comet engine (0.350 version). Albions always had Albion gearboxes. [At different times, the Tiger Cub could have either a Leyland or an Albion box.]

David Oldfield

11/12/11 – 06:59

The Albion Aberdonian was a lighter weight version of the already lightweight Leyland Tiger Cub. It was powered by the Leyland O.350 engine of 5.76 litres giving 94 bhp, and was coupled to the Albion five speed constant mesh gearbox. It proved to be something of a frail beast, and most of the operators that tried it didn’t come back for more. Production ceased around 1960.

Roger Cox

11/12/11 – 11:20

The Albion Aberdonian had the same Leyland engine as the Leyland Tiger Cub, but strangely no Tiger Cub growl.

Peter Williamson

11/12/11 – 16:11

I always preferred the Aberdonian to the Tiger Cub, partly because I was brought with them. North Western’s batch of six spent most of their lives at Oldham depot and were the mainstay of the Saddleworth local services, running past my front door every half hour. I always thought they were quieter than the Tiger Cub and in retrospect I put that down to the Tiger Cub’s fan, although I don’t know if I’m correct in this.
The Albions had, shall we say, a distinctive vibration when idling. The only Aberdonian in preservation to my knowledge is the East Yorkshire one and that made the same sounds despite having a different body. It’s a bus I haven’t heard of for many years – does anyone know of its current status?
There are a few pictures of North Western’s Albions in my Saddleworth Buses gallery at: //davidbeilby.zenfolio.com/ where they will be found in the 156, 157 and 158 collections. (This gallery is still developing but the collections relevant to these buses have been done.)

David Beilby

13/12/11 – 08:58

I too had a soft spot for the Aberdonian, despite my only first-hand experience of them being the Manchester ones with Seddon bodies of almost third-world standard. I always feel that the model had a rough deal being marketed as an alternative to the Tiger Cub, as an urban bus or express coach, when it would have been much happier doing the sort of jobs that Bedfords did – pottering around villages on market days or providing day trips to the seaside – but giving the passengers a more refined experience than a Bedford could.
As far as I know, Plaxton-bodied Aberdonian coach XUP 692 is still with us, but it now very audibly boasts a Leyland 401 engine, and by all accounts goes like a rocket. I wish one of the Charlie’s Cars Harringtons had survived.

Peter Williamson

13/12/11 – 11:21

There’s an idea for another thread on the web-site – re-engining with similar, but different and larger, engines. I am already aware of AV760 powered RTs and RMs!

David Oldfield

15/12/11 – 06:52

When I drove for Stanley Gath of Dewsbury he had an ex O.K Motor Services Roe bodied AEC Reliance RUP 768 that had a rod operated entrance door. The bus was always called Rupert for obvious reasons.

Philip Carlton

26/04/14 – 07:24

I used to go to work on the Albions from Chell to Hanley and the gearbox seemed to be arranged from right to left, very different from the Leyland and AEC.
Can anyone verify this?

Clive Reynolds

27/04/14 – 08:06

Clive, the gear selector gate on the PMT Albions was exactly the same as any other bus in the fleet. They had a five speed Albion constant mesh unit fitted. The linkage was very sloppy giving the effect to the driver of stirring a very thick pudding when trying to locate each gear!
The Tiger Cubs that were acquired from Stratford Blue in 1971 had exactly the same gearbox but with a Leyland designed selector arrangement. The gear change on these was much more positive (and heavy!) but once you acquired the knack, I always thought a pleasant bus to drive. Mind you, I didn’t have to operate them in service on one man services.

Ian Wild

18/03/20 – 06:53

With regards to the electric operated doors, SN5573 to SN5612 plus SN6627 to SN6646 were so fitted.

Leekensian

Wakefields Motors – AEC Reliance – FT 9002 – 202

Wakefields Motors - AEC Reliance - FT 9002 - 202

Wakefields Motors
1955
AEC Reliance MU3RV
Weymann C41F

Am I in a minority, or was the Weymann Fanfare one of the most handsome coach bodies ever built? Whatever chassis they were on they looked exactly what they were, well designed, well built and comfortable. To me they fell into the same category as the first Burlingham Seagulls, nothing flash, brash or arrogant, just a quiet understated elegance, and any subsequent ‘improvements’ usually took the edge off something that was right in the first place. The Northern General Transport group had 16 in total, all delivered in 1955: 197 to 202 are from the Wakefields fleet; Outwardly they all looked pretty much the same, but the six Wakefields versions, FT 8997/9002, 197/202, were C41F on an AEC MU3RV chassis, they were mainly used for private hires, day tours and excursions. By contrast, the 10 Northern ECN 680/9, 1680/9; were C37F on a Guy Arab UF chassis with Gardner 6HLW engines, initially they were used primarily for extended tours and continental work, hence the smaller seating capacity. Both types were reliable workhorses and lasted well, I think the last ones were withdrawn in 1971. When not being used for tours the Guy’s were frequently to be found earning their keep on the express services from Newcastle to Liverpool or Blackpool. This was the pre motorway era, and the route to Liverpool in particular involved a long hard slog over the Pennine’s, so they didn’t exactly have an easy life. Percy Main did not have any express routes, but at busy times Wakefields coaches with P/M crews, could often be found displaying ‘on hire to Northern’ stickers, and working Northern express routes as duplicates. The AEC’s were certainly not underpowered, and if anything they were a bit livelier than the Guy’s on the flat, but once you hit the hills, it wasn’t long before the Guy would show you a clean pair of heels.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye

23/06/13 – 08:39

Yes, Ronnie, you may very well be in a minority, but you are most certainly not alone. The only question to me is which of the four designs was the most elegant: this one, the Harrington Cavalier, the early Seagull, or the one Leyland produced for the Royal Tiger. One model railway forum of which I am a member has regular polls on different topics: I wonder!!!!!!!

Pete Davies

23/06/13 – 09:31

Well, as you know, Ronnie, I’m a Seagull, Fanfare AND Dalesman fan.

i) Seagull
ii) Cavalier/Grenadier
iii) Fanfare
iv) Dalesman

David Oldfield

23/06/13 – 14:51

North Western took the prototype which had been exhibited at the 1954 Commercial Motor Show with a long rectangular destination panel next to a three track number indicator in the same panel as the vehicle above. Later vehicles had the indicators removed to the roof line.
I agree that from most aspects the body was was a handsome. well designed and well built. My only gripe would be the heavy rear corner pillars which, combined with the curve to the roof line, from the rear made the vehicle look very round shouldered.

Phil Blinkhorn

23/06/13 – 17:21

I’m another Fanfare fan, and especially of the Northern General Guys, which were my absolute favourite coaches on the Liverpool service.

Peter Williamson

25/06/13 – 07:42

Ronnie, I must also add my name to the list of ‘Fanfare Fans’. Your comments about their appearance are spot on, and as a youngster I always felt privileged on seeing one glide through Harrogate on express work. They always looked very smart in Northern’s fine cream and rich red livery, and I can see one now in my mind’s eye, circumnavigating the floral roundabout from Station Parade onto tree-lined Victoria Avenue, and then off into in the summer sun. Wonderful. In those far off days, to my young eyes the Fanfare was one of those coaches that was not only beautiful to look at, but exuded a sort of ‘cuddliness’ with its curves. Another one in that class was the Burlingham Seagull, closely followed by the Bristol LS coach, with its bewhiskered Bristol-ECW badge on the front. Some modern bus and coach designs do try to look friendly with their ‘smiley’ frontal styling, but this just looks like an ‘add-on’ somehow. The Fanfare looked the part and did it without even trying.

Brendan Smith

25/06/13 – 11:51

I liked the Fanfare too, but the rear end was dreadfully old fashioned for a design introduced in 1954 – and compare it to the contemporary Duple Elizabethan which would have won hands down on looks. Duple, of course, only made the Elizabethan for two years before replacing it with the first version of the Britannia (and its centre-entrance sister the Brittanic), which to my eyes were simply dreadful. I much preferred the later versions of the Britannia built from 1959-62. Plaxton designs in the early years of Fanfare production were also fairly abysmal, especially the front entrance version of the Consort, and Harrington’s Wayfarer III/IV were an acquired taste – the front dome just looked wrong compared to the rest of it. And as for Yeates’ Europa and the later Burlingham Seagulls, the word “abominations” seems appropriate!
I may be eccentric (is there any doubt?) but my own favourites in coach design between 1951 and 1958 are:-
1) The original centre entrance Burlingham Seagull
2) The Whitson Grand Prix
3) The Bellhouse Hartwell Landmaster (especially the ones with the breast shaped headlight fairings!)
4) The Windover Kingsway
5) The ACB Coronation Land Cruiser
I’d also give an honourable mention to the Trans-United Brabazon (as supplied to Yelloway on Regal IV and Royal Tiger chassis)
As for the Harrington Cavalier, although an attractive design in 1960, it was rapidly overtaken by the stunning good looks of the (30ft long versions) of the Panorama model produced from 1961-64. Longer versions of this design had a distinct droop at the rear end which spoiled the effect.
When we’ve finished talking about underfloor engined coach designs, who would agree with me that Gurney Nutting’s fully-fronted Mertonian design on half-cab style chassis was impressive? I’ve also seen it described as monstrous!

Also, just a quick comment to Phil – the Fanfare prototype supplied to North Western (FDB 570) was actually delivered to NWRCC with the standard Fanfare blind display (as above) and was modified to show a separate route number at a later stage. North Western also modified the blind apertures on their 1958 Harrington Wayfarer IVs to suit standard blinds.

Neville Mercer

25/06/13 – 17:00

Very rare I disagree with Neville but I don’t think the Windovers gelled and the Bellhouse Hartwell was spoiled by the protuberances. Couldn’t agree more about Plaxton. The half-cab/full-front design was classic followed by years of “Oh gawd, what have they done now!?” Along with SUT (of blessed and bitter memory) I was a huge Plaxton fan in the period 1960 – 1982. [They then lost the plot in the Paramount years and the quality dropped to that of Duple just before their demise in 1989. They say the new ones have regained the quality: time will tell.] Question for our esteemed expert (Neville). Don’t you think the Trans United Brabazon was a rip off of the Landmaster?

David Oldfield

25/06/13 – 17:01

Another Fanfare fan here too Ronnie! I loved the Sheffield ones and for me the addition of a route indicator was not detrimental. These were used on the routes into the Derbyshire Peak District and one’s destination arrived all too soon if you were on one of these! However – my twelve points go to the Seagull, of which I rode the SUT classics, Ten points to the Fanfare, My eight points to the Grenadier / Crusader with Grey Cars being prime examples for me, and, like David O, the Dalesman would be next. Of the Duple designs, top contender is the “butterfly” front.

Les Dickinson

26/06/13 – 06:00

I can understand your dislike of the Kingsway, David. It had a certain “Marmite” quality to it. To me the design brings back memories of my first visit to Scarborough in the early 1960s where I marvelled at the rear-entrance examples operated by EYMS and YTC. I was heavily into sci-fi at the time, and something about the Kingsway shouted “the future was here….and now it’s gone”, a bit like TSR2 if you remember that aircraft! The Landmaster, on the other hand, I’ll defend to the death. Mixed martial arts?
On the front-engined front, I think that most of us would agree with Les about the butterfly front Super Vega of the 1956-58 variety. A genuine classic and much better than the final two versions which (to me) always looked as if they’d been eating too many pies.

Neville Mercer

26/06/13 – 06:00

Some things just seem to look right regardless, the Fanfare being a classic example, but obviously some liveries look better than others, and what looks good to some is hideous to others. Keep it plain and simple seems to be the secret. Just for fun and in no particular order, here is my selection for 50’s mid 60’s classics. The following are all on an under floor chassis,
The original centre entrance Burlingham Seagull
ECW as per Bristol LS or Leyland LUT ‘United coach livery for preference’
Weymann Fanfare
Harrington Cavalier
Roe Dalesman
All Leyland Royal Tiger
Duple Roadmaster
and the pre ‘Y’ type Alexander used by many of the Scottish operators, I believe North Western also had a few of them. As for front engine chassis?
Duple Butterfly front, and a strange one perhaps, the beadle rebodies used by many BET group companies

Ronnie Hoye

26/06/13 – 06:00

Neville, if your taste in coach body-work is mirrored by your taste in ladies then you must have dated some real rough specimens in your time! But, can we take it that Mrs Mercer had/has “Bellhouse Hartwell Landmaster” attributes? My favourites?
1) Harrington Cavalier;
2) Harrington Grenadier with Cavalier front panels;
3) Harrington Grenadier;
4) any other possible combination of Grenadier/Cavalier bits I may not currently recall/know about;
5) the last real ECW coach body of the early 1970s;
6) the B51(?) ECW DP body of the late 1980s – can this sneak in as a coach? (didn’t some of them have single piece doors anyway? which would class them as a coach in my opinion);
7) that Willowbrook “cut-price Plaxton/Duple” DP effort of the same period – the one that no NBC subsidiary seemed to want, but which to me seemed to have an elegant simplicity and authenticity about it! Mrs Rushworth? alas in the last ten years gone from Cavalier to Yeates Riviera – but don’t tell her I said that!

Philip Rushworth

26/06/13 – 11:46

Gentlemen, I know that even the mention of Midland Red has many of you running to the barricades, but I would like to nominate their C5 motorway coach. Considering the prototype came out in 1958, it was a mould-breaker which set the standard for high-speed coaching. No doubt many will consider them to be little more than dual-purpose buses but, for me, so were the all-Leylands and Duple Roadmasters.

Paul Haywood

26/06/13 – 11:47

Phillip, I suspect that you were bottle-fed as a baby! And are you really saying that all of your favourite coaches pre-1970 were Cavalier/Grenadier variants? I notice that you don’t list any Crusader or Legionaire models although these had many similarities to the blessed Cavalier. Speaking of which, why has nobody produced a decent 1/50 or 1/76 scale Cavalier? EFE’s version was done on the cheap and it shows – it’s inaccurate for almost every operator except Yelloway because of the lack of front-dome roof-lights. And on the Yelloway version they screwed things up by the completely inaccurate destination and “via” blinds. It’s still hard to believe that somebody at EFE thought that “Rhyl” was spelled that way! If EFE weren’t so reluctant to admit their many glaring errors (and to get better “experts” to check their final artwork), they might have made amends by re-releasing their 119xx casting in Yelloway livery but showing accurate blinds for the Torquay or London routes. And as for their “Grenadier” model so much is wrong with it that it’s little better than a toy.

Neville Mercer

26/06/13 – 11:47

The Fanfare was as many have said an attractive understated coach The basic design was spoilt when Weymann added a barrel windscreen and dubbed it the Castilian

Chris Hough

27/06/13 – 07:06

Neville, perhaps I’m more forgiving, but – looking at the display cases above my desk – I’m just glad that in the last 25(?) years I’ve been able to build up a collection of ready-built models from LAD-cabbed Albion trucks to safari-wrapped EYMS Wrights . . . although I do agree that some of the errors have been unforgiveable – “West Yorkshire” on the back of OOCs/EFEs(?) OB and the wrong colour red on OOCs Huddersfield CVG (and on . . . and on . . . until we get to the white tween-decks band on EFE’s Bradford RT!). Pre-70 coach-wise I’ve done some thinking: Alexander produced a nice design, of which Barton took some; Y-type with a single door (Premier Travel, Venture, Eastern Scottish,); ECW produced functional products – but not that MW body with the stepped waist-rail, and the first RE body was behind its time (Lodekka grille on a coach?) when first released. Perhaps I was a bit tight Neville, but I’m not going to budge any further. And yes, bottle feeding was the rage in the 1960s.

Philip Rushworth

28/06/13 – 06:20

I must agree, it certainly is a handsome coach. We had at least 1 in Sheffield,(reg ???? WB) although it may have been a Leyland. Again used on the 8&9 routes I used at the time. I am not familiar with some of the other styles mentioned, but imagine it stood alongside what other buses would look like, in the mid 50s,in Sheffield, it must have been the best looking by far.

Andy Fisher

28/06/13 – 06:22

I worked for Boddys Bridlington from 1967 who had a fleet of older coaches for seasonal use as well as the modern fleet we had some Fanfares FDB 570, AHD 820, NCY 624,PWN 64,PWN 65,

Ken Wragg

28/06/13 – 14:18

Philip, I quite agree with all the model errors you list, and – like you – I’m pleased to live in a world where there’s a wider variety of model buses on offer than a Routemaster and an Atlantean with imaginary bodywork! But that can’t let EFE off the hook when they make really basic errors that any die-cast equivalent of a proof-reader should have spotted a mile away. They do, after all, boast about the accuracy of their models, which entitles us to whinge when they get it seriously wrong. Especially given that they’re the ones making money and we’re the ones spending it!
Incidentally has everyone noticed that Oxford Die-cast are planning to release a Fanfare in 1/76? I’m still waiting to see how accurate the colours are on their Ribble all-Leyland Royal Tiger coach given the seriously wrong shades shown in their current image on line. The second release of the Royal Tiger (Southdown) seems to have the same front dome as the Ribble one, whereas in reality the two versions were totally different. But I live in hope of some decent coach models. Can somebody prod OOC into releasing more of their excellent Mk 1 Seagull?
Speaking of the Seagull, a slightly late reply to David because I missed the original comment on first reading (senile?). I can see what you mean about the TU Brabazon being derivative, but it seems to me like a handsome mix of BH (the front end, minus appendages) and Burlingham (the side view aft of the cab). I imagine that all of these Lancashire coachbuilders kept a close eye on each other’s designs.

Neville Mercer

01/07/13 – 07:33

HDK 804

Just so that people know what David O and I are referring to, here is a Yelloway example of the Trans-United Brabazon. (photographer unknown – print via GMTS Archive)

Neville Mercer

01/11/13 – 07:54

One AEC Reliance 470 that ! have fond memories of is 1632 NO. It was new to Frank Harris of Grays with a Duple body. Following an RTA, it was rebodied in 1962 with a Harrington Cavalier C43F body. The Coach firm from Bugbrooke Northamptonshire who provided the Coaches I went to school on acquired it in (I think) late 1974. The Harrington standard seats are the most comfortable that I have EVER sat on. It was a smashing vehicle to ride on. It is a crying shame that this lovely Coach is now in that great coach park in the sky.

Stemax1960

Wakefields Motors – AEC Reliance – FT 9000 – 200


Copyright Unknown

Wakefields Motors
1955
AEC Reliance MU3RV
Weymann C41F

I’ve recently been to an Historic vehicle rally at Seaburn, and as usual I came back with a load of photos, some I took and others I bought. But I managed to get hold of one that has eluded me for a while, and that is a colour photo of one of Wakefields Weymann Fanfares. Isn’t that simply glorious, understated, simple, and elegant. Modern designers take note!
I have posted one of these vehicles before but I think the colour shot warrants a further posting. You can view my previous posting and comments at the following link FT 9002 – 202

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye

28/08/14 – 05:47

Lets raise (another) cheer for the Fanfare – or possibly a fanfare for the Fanfare? Super photo. Obviously I’m all for the original and best Reliance version but what else was on offer? Guy Arab LUF, Leyland Leopard (or Tiger Cub). You really couldn’t lose, whichever version you went for.

David Oldfield

28/08/14 – 10:35

As you will know, David, Wakefields had six on a Reliance chassis, and parent company, Northern had ten on a Guy Arab LUF with Gardner 6HLW engines. Northern specified a lower capacity 37 seat version, at first the were used on extended tour work and spent much of their time away from their home base. Off season, they were frequently to be found earning their keep on the Trans Pennine Liverpool Express route. This was pre motorway days, and any east-west route to Liverpool was a long hard slog. Mechanically, they were well up to the job, and some would argue they offered a degree of passenger comfort that has never been matched. At busy times, they were often joined by their Wakefields cousins, who, along with their Percy Main crews, were drafted in as duplicates on the route. As for longevity, in 1964, all 16 were refurbished by Plaxton, the AEC’s were withdrawn at the end of the 1968 season, and the Guy’s at the end of 1969. It’s such a pity that none seem to have survived into preservation.

Ronnie Hoye

01/09/14 – 08:45

I’ll happily raise another cheer for the Fanfare any day. I’ll not only endorse Ronnie’s comment about passenger comfort, but for the LUFs on the Tyne-Tees-Mersey express I’ll raise an extra cheer for musical entertainment!

Peter Williamson

Rotherham Corporation – AEC Reliance – RET 162 – 162

Rotherham Corporation - AEC Reliance - RET 162 - 162

Rotherham Corporation
1957
AEC Reliance MU3RA
Weymann B45F

It looks like it could well be market day in this busy scene in Upper Millgate, Rotherham, looking into All Saint’s Square, in July, 1962. It’s quite likely that 162 is performing as a duplicate on the 37 service to Richmond Park, as this route was normally double-deck operated, in fact a rebodied Bristol L6B on the 37 is already waiting behind the Reliance, ready to pull on to the stand and load. Behind that is a 1954 Weymann bodied Daimler CVG6 on the Whiston service, and behind him yet again is another Daimler, a Roe bodied lowbridge example dating from 1957, on the Canklow route.
A 1949 East Lancs (Bridlington) bodied Bristol K is on the left of the picture, having discharged its passengers at the “Final Alighting Point” and about to turn left into Bridgegate to make yet another journey to Chapeltown or Holmes, and further across the Square is one of its sisters on the East Herringthorpe stand, while peeping out from the offside of the Reliance is an earlier example soon to depart for Sunnyside on the 21 service.
The trolley wires emerging from Bridgegate were only used in an emergency, and joined the straight through wires from the Square, which was the layover point for trolleybuses on the short working 5 service to the Pumping Station. Just slightly over three years from when this picture was taken, the trolleybuses would be abandoned, the wires cut down and the green painted traction poles dug up and taken away. Nowadays this is all a pedestrian precinct, and with many of the shops relocated to suburban shopping centres and retail worlds, the town centre is rarely ever this busy any more.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Dave Careless

01/05/16 – 17:22

You may very well be right about market day, Dave, but town centres were always much busier fifty odd years ago, before out of town shopping centres, high parking charges for those who had cars, and so on. Oh, yes, and most folk would have used the bus. Great view – is the driver aiming to hit the lady crossing in front of him, or to avoid her? One would hope it’s the latter!

Pete Davies

03/05/16 – 07:12

Thanks Pete. My father took the picture with his then new Taron Eye 35mm camera of which he was very proud. Those six Reliances, of which 162 was one, were the first underfloor engined single-deckers in the Rotherham fleet, 160-165, with matching RET registrations, so I was quite keen for him to get a photo of one for me!
There was no central bus station in Rotherham in those days, and the buses left from stands dotted around the various streets in the town centre, and with all the shops, the steady stream of buses and trolleybuses, and the shoppers and the bus queues, it was a vibrant place. I just read the other day in the local paper online from Canada that WH Smith’s are closing their Rotherham branch next month, so although it wasn’t a large outlet, there will no longer be a book shop in the town centre. That would have been hard to imagine back in 1962.

Dave Careless

Hebble – AEC Regent V – GJX 847 – 303 – (1)

Hebble AEC Regent V

Hebble Motor Services 
1957
AEC Regent V D3RV 
Weymann Orion H33/28R

If you read the copy that was with the photo of the West Yorkshire Bristol KSW6B fleet no DBW 20 (link here) I said that the photo was taken from the top deck of an Hebble Regent V well this is the Regent V.
Hebble used to paint around the radiator in white to denote that the bus had a highbridge body.

The white front on highbridge Hebble buses was to remind the driver not to enter certain parts of the Halifax Walnut Street depot as it was too low When the depot was altered this practise ceased.

Chris Hough

Excellent photos and information loved reading about the old times. I worked for Hebble from 1967 until having to go to West Yorkshire then First Group. The photo of 303 Hebble I drove it many times, good bus.

J S Thornton

Ah yes JST, I well remember 303 with the noise from its straight-through exhaust cannoning-off the walls of the terraced houses on Horton Bank!! People in Queensbury would probably hear it coming the proverbial mile away! Happy days! Ironically in the late 80’s I worked at Reliance Hosiery whose premises included the Walnut Street garage. All gone now, I believe.

Judd

01/07/14 – 14:41

The Highbridge Regent Vs also had white steering wheels to help the driver enter the right part of the depot.

Geoff S

City of Oxford – AEC Regent V – WJO 947 – H947

City of Oxford - AEC Regent V - WJO 947 - H947

The City of Oxford Motor Services
1956
AEC Regent V MD3RV
Weymann H30/26RD

City of Oxford I think were one of AECs most loyal customers. According to my 1963 British Bus Fleets South Central book it states that as from 1927 apart from a batch of 5 Dennis Loline Mark IIs delivered in 1961 with AEC engines by the way, all their vehicles were AECs. Interestingly enough the next batch of vehicles ordered after the Lolines were AEC Bridgemasters. What I find strange, and I hope someone can explain why it was that the Bridgemaster had been available from 1956, why wait until December 1961 to take delivery of their first batch. Not to mention the fact that they took delivery of 15 lowbridge Regent Vs as well as the 5 Lolines in the 56 – 61 period. As a matter of interest they also took delivery of 30 highbridge Regent V MDs and 16 LDs in the same period of which the vehicle in the above shot is one of the first. It was chassis number 29 of the MD variant and had as can be seen an exposed radiator rather than the more recognisable concealed version more associated with the Regent V. All City of Oxford 27ft Regent Vs were MDs (Medium Weight) having the smaller AEC AV470 7.68 litre six cylinder diesel engine. But they were not quite so loyal when it came to body builders Park Royal and Weymann were the norm for the double deckers, apart from a batch of 5 Regent Vs and the Lolines that had East Lancs bodies and the first batch of front entrance Regents that had bodies by Willowbrook. I am afraid that is where my information ends but if you know something that maybe of interest to others your comments are more than welcome.

A full list of Regent V codes can be seen here.

I think you’re a little unfair about loyalty with bodywork. When you buy one car or bus at a time you can be loyal to one maker. When you bulk order you have to be aware of the capacity of the supplier – which is why most large operators (even London Transport) dual sourced. At least COMS managed fidelity to AEC – with which I would fully concur – and the two bodybuilders were among the acknowledged best at their craft at the time. [Lolines were only available late in Weymann’s life but maybe they were arguing with Dennis for an AEC option when the body style and finish of the Bridgemaster was truly dreadful.]
Whatever the reasons; maroon, cream and duck-egg green AECs – that is the heyday of a superb operator.

David Oldfield

P.S. Re-reading Alan Townsin’s chapter on the Bridgemaster in his “Blue Triangle”…..
The original version was attractive with curved profile and aluminium body but BET were likely to be the model’s biggest customer. They wanted steel frames and single skin domes, like the MCW Orion, and a wholesale re-think had to be made.
Very few of the original Crossley built Bridgemaster’s were made before it was totally retooled and production moved to Park Royal from whence came the uglier production model. This probably helps answer why COMS didn’t buy Bridgemasters before 1961 – that and being on the end of a queue which would involve PRV vehicles for other customers. The Bridgemaster was now firmly based in London and would, or could, not be sub-let to Crossley or Roe.

I don’t know who took this photograph but I know the setting is Gloucester Green Bus Station in the heart of Oxford.
Oxford Bus Co’s livery was absolutely gorgeous, restrained and stately but still gorgeous!!

George Taylor

23/03/13 – 08:02

Eventually this ended up with Wallace School of Transport as a driver trainer bus – I took my PSV test on it in 1970

Brian Lamb

23/03/13 – 12:28

Coming from a Leyland/Daimler Orion bodied stronghold on my visits to Oxford with my father in the late 1950s/early 1960s I always thought this batch had a certain refined air about it. Again, coming from the a place where the Orions were coated in acres or red or green the Oxford livery was to my eye very attractive.
A few words on the Bridgemaster. Alan Townsin is, of course, correct regarding the BET demands for the Bridgemaster. The original bodies were developed from a specification drawn up at Park Royal but the final design and build was by Crossley at Errwood Road using the basic outline and many of the panel sizes of the then current Park Royal design it was also building. It is interesting to see that a few of the design touches of the original were incorporated into some orders throughout the production run see: www.brindale.co.uk/  
Whilst Graham Hill’s information on the site is a little suspect e.g. his contention that the Lodekker (sic) had saturated the market leading to poor Bridgemaster sales, the pictures show well the versions of the final design though, as it is a Park Royal site, omit pictures of the Crossley version shown here: www.sct61.org.uk/  
I was told by an ex Crossley employee who was there to the end that the transfer of the Bridgemaster to Park Royal, which was pretty much the final nail in the coffin of Crossley, would not have been so final had there been a commercially viable demand from non BET operators who would have specified the original body, leaving Park Royal to deal with the BET revamped design. As it was, no significant interest was shown and the shut down went ahead.
Regarding Oxford’s order, whilst BET companies could deviate from group policy, at the time the group was pressurising its constituents to take the Bridgemaster. With a very much AEC dominated fleet Oxford found it hard to resist unlike Ribble, North Western and other fleets which had either a Leyland dominance or a more diverse fleet.

Phil Blinkhorn

26/03/13 – 06:38

While the redesigned Bridgemaster is widely regarded as a styling disaster, it is often forgotten that some of the rear-entrance examples were nothing of the kind, as is well illustrated by the photos of the Sheffield buses on Graham Hill’s site (see Phil’s brindale link above).

Peter Williamson

30/10/16 – 06:28

Watching a 1963ish Youtube video on the Outwell and Upwell Tramway I saw a familiar sight: a 1949 City of Oxford AEC Regent III with 56-seat highbridge Weymann bodywork stopping to pick up a lady—and here’s the less familiar bit—who was standing on the railway track. The by then diesel-hauled farm-produce trains that ran along the roadside made only a handful of trips a day so using the tracks as a bus-stop posed little danger.
I couldn’t make out an operator’s name, but I’m sure someone here knows!

ps.
I should have said that the film is Huntley Archives no 521. OFC 383 here appears to have platform doors, which I thought were fitted by Smiths of Reading on acquisition. Could this bus have passed from Smiths to a third life on the Fens? If so, that would date the picture to about 1966-67.

Ian Thompson

30/10/16 – 14:41

I think that the Regent III is OFC 390 which was acquired by Smith (Bluebell) of March in February 1962 and was fitted with doors for them. It lasted until March 1966.

Nigel Turner

30/10/16 – 16:21

I thought that the Oxford “Country Buses” – out of town services like Kidlington – of that eras had doors from new?

Joe

St Helens Corporation – AEC Regent V – GDJ 438 – H138

St Helens Corporation - AEC Regent V - GDJ 438 - H138

St Helens Corporation
1957
AEC Regent V MD3RV
Weymann H33/28R

The letter in front of the fleet number denotes the transport committees sanctions codes for new vehicles, I think I have seen this before with another operator but who just slips my mind at the time of writing. I am not quite sure as to why it is used unless it is a way of dating the vehicles. The strange thing is that it was only used on their double deckers mind you when this shot was taken in the summer of 64 St Helens corporation only had 4 single deck vehicles. Three AEC Reliance Marshall bodied buses and rather strange for a corporation fleet a Leyland Leopard L2 centre entrance Duple Britannia coach. Not quite sure what that was used for, school children to the swimming pool perhaps or for private hire, they would not of been the first municipality to go down that road.

A full list of Regent V codes can be seen here.

H or L often meant High or Low bridge? Some municipalities would have coaches to take civic parties on tours of inspection- eg the planning committee!

Joe

It’s been said before, and it’s still true. In the right livery, the Orion could be a handsome beast. This is an excellent example. [So is an STD Orion!]

David Oldfield

In this colour scheme, being light on the top half, the whole vehicle looks balanced and attractive. And the rear wheel spats give a touch of class!

Chris Hebbron

Sheffield had the (in)famous 9000 WB, a Reliance/Roe Dalesman C37C – for the use of the Transport Committee but available for Private Hire.
It was alleged that this was bought “because Leeds had one” – but I do not know whether this was true.
Salford had a late (1962) Weymann Fanfare/Reliance which became an airport coach after SELNEC took over. It replaced a Daimler CVD6/Burlingham – both originally committee coaches.
The St Helens Leopard was a 1962 Motor Show exhibit and is pictured in Doug Jack’s book “Leyland Bus”.

David Oldfield

You’ve hit the nail squarely on the head David. In the right livery the Orion could indeed be a handsome beast. In this neck of the woods Samuel Ledgard operated four ex-South Wales AEC Regent Vs and an ex-Tyneside Leyland Titan PD2 with such bodies, and they looked a treat in Sammie’s blue and grey livery. The Regents were somewhat spartan inside mind you, but they had the most beautifully raucous exhaust note to compensate. Following Ledgard’s takeover by West Yorkshire in 1967, the AECs were numbered DAW1-4 and later allocated to Harrogate depot. My brother and I would deliberately walk from our usual stop in Bilton, to the one at the top of King Edward’s Drive, just for the sheer pleasure of catching one into town (and obviously back!!). They were generally to be found on the 1/2 Bachelor Gardens-Woodlands and the 9 New Park-Oatlands services, which suited us just fine. At the time I had a morning paper round, and so was also treated to the glorious sound of them barking their way up Bachelor Gardens or the Hill Tops just after seven each morning. Fabulous!

Brendan Smith

DAW 1 – 4 were indeed vehicles full of character Brendan. DAW 2, MCY 408, was the first Ledgard vehicle to be painted in West Yorkshire colours quite soon after the takeover. Along with all the AECs it was initially allocated to Otley and while working the last journey home at 22:35 from Cookridge Street it failed at the Gaumont Cinema (as was). It was taken to Roseville Road and treated to a mechanical wash with a vengeance – being 14’6″ inches high it fouled the washing machine and suffered a damaged front roof dome, it was quickly repaired and became the first red “Sammy’s” double decker since G.F.Tate’s WN 4759 in 1943.

Chris Youhill

20/11/11 – 07:30

The Leyland Leopard L2 coach was number 200 (SDJ 162).
On October 9th 1965, I had booked to go, as a Liverpool fan, to Old Trafford to see Liverpool play Manchester United. My friends and I went by bus from Huyton down to Lime Street as we had booked on Crown Tours of Liverpool to get to Old Trafford.
I had a pleasant surprise to find that our coach was SDJ 162, on hire to Crown. However we lost 2-0 to goals from Best and Law, so the coach remained the highlight of the day.
It was later part exchanged against Bedford VAM 201 (KKU 77F) and was not traced after that.

Dave Farrier

20/11/11 – 13:35

David Oldfield mentions above the fact that Sheffield had a coach because Leeds had one. Leeds first coach was a 1965 AEC Reliance with a Roe body based on the Roe bodied AEC Reliance service buses bought at around the same time It was numbered 10 ANW 710C and was bought for private hire it went into preservation but its current whereabouts are unknown. Just before the PTE took over a trio of Plaxton bodied Leyland Leopards were also purchased numbered 21-23 MUG 21L etc

Chris Hough

20/11/11 – 14:44

Chris. How interesting – since the Sheffield one predated your Leeds one by about seven years. The story mangled the facts a bit, evidently.
As a matter of fact, I actually drove 10 when it was owned by Classic Coaches of High Wycombe on a private hire from Reading to Lord’s Cricket Ground, London, and back.
It was of Classics original fleet of four (including a West Riding Dalesman, a “Brown Bomber” Harrington and a Royal Blue MW/ECW). Mr Crowther then grew too quickly and went pop – after which I lost track of his vehicles. A lot of the interesting ones found further homes in preservation – it is to be hoped that the three Reliances above were among them.

David Oldfield

22/11/11 – 07:27

David This posting proves what a small world it is! I went to secondary school with David Crowther and later worked with his wife. Like many enthusiasts I think he let his heart rule his head despite training as an accountant

Chris Hough

22/11/11 – 09:16

Small world indeed. A very nice man – but not a successful operator – but I know a number of “professional” operators who would fit this bill as well. [I also know a number of the latter who run the ship with military precision but are thoroughly unpleasant people to work for!]
PS David had a cracking pair of Leyland engined REs as well!

David Oldfield

13/07/12 – 06:10

I went to school on this vehicle. If I remember I think the Letter in the fleet number was related to the registration number. A DDJ bus would be D### and K199 was a KDJ registration.

Geoff Atherton

14/07/12 – 18:09

To pick up a point raised in the original post, about “sanction codes” in front of fleet-numbers: the ten AEC Regent Vs delivered to Bradford Corporation Transport in November 1962 (126-135) carried the code “A” – they were the only vehicles so to do. These vehicles had been ordered in March 1961. John Wake, GM at St. Helen’s, had been appointed GM at Bradford in March 1961 . . . but left for Nottingham in July 1962. This innovation didn’t survive beyond his departure – although the St. Helens-style three piece destination layout did, and the earlier Regent Vs (106-125) were converted to this layout. I gather, from J S King’s excellent three-volume history of BCT, that John Wake didn’t stay long at BCT because his anti-trolleybus views put him in conflict with a good proportion of the Transport Committee . . . although that didn’t, during his short tenure, stop him pushing through the agreement in committee that led to the final decision to decommission the trolleybus operations.

Philip Rushworth

05/08/12 – 07:24

Re the comment from Geoff Atherton, St Helens K199, Reg No. KDJ 999 was an experimental Regent V front entrance bus bought in lieu of the fact that Leyland could not supply Atlanteans. She was unique to the Corporation and as far as I can remember had the nickname “Big Bertha”. She ended up on the 309 service from Burtonwood to Southport, but had a habit of running out of diesel on route. Apparently, whilst on charter to Blackburn, she also dropped part of her engine on the nearside lane of the M6! As far as I am aware, she is still extant in the North West Transport Museum in St Helens.

Alan Blincow

22/08/12 – 14:58

St Helens Corporation had a kind of year letter system but it was only briefly used on double deckers. Some had the letter stencilled internally, others didn’t. Some had just the fleet number at the front of the bus, others didn’t.
It was only used between 1954 and 1966, the final six Leyland Titan PD2As and three AEC Regents (1967) were just 50-58.
Letters A-D were retrospectively applied, A being pre-1945, B were 1945-47, C 1948. The London specification AEC Regent RT types were given letter D. Sanction E was the first to be applied new, to Leyland Titan PD2s (1954/5), F (1955/6), G (1956). H, J and K were AEC Regent Vs of 1957-59 and the first “St Helens bonnet” Leyland PD2As of 1960. Letter L applied to AEC Regent Vs and Leyland PD2As built in 1961/62. L was used for the 1965 Leyland PD2As instead of M, but these had year-letter registrations and the corporation decided that with future new buses having year letter registrations the fleet number prefix was no longer necessary so it was dropped. However many of the L prefixed buses carried them internally until withdrawal in Merseyside PTE days in the late 1970s.

Paul Mason

25/05/13 – 08:34

Re Alan Blincows post…
K199 was used on the 309-319 services between Warrington and Southport extensively between 1963 and 1967 and most certainly didn’t run out of fuel on the ‘last Southport’!!!. The tank was more than ample for any duty that the Corporation ran.
I think you are referring to an article in Mervyn Ashtons otherwise excellent book on St Helens Transport…. Let’s just say that Mervyn was using a little ‘poetic licence’ at times!!!.
I bought Big Bertha from Tom Hollis at Queensferry in June 1978, and later sold her on to Ray Henton at the North West Transport Museum, where she still resides…

Roy Corless

24/08/14 – 10:39

Yesterday I did a wedding hire with ex St Helens AEC Regent V/MCW bus no 58. A warning in the cab says Unlaiden height 14ft 3 1/2in . So this must have been the standard for the corporation till the last half cabs were delivered

Geoff S

04/08/16 – 11:12

Does anybody know if St Helens K199 (Big Bertha) had any work done on it?

John M

01/12/16 – 06:54

In reply to your inquiry K199 has had a clutch slave cylinder replaced, But the master also needs work. This will be done sometime in 2017 to enable the bus to be moved around the museum more easily.
The sides of the bus are Bulging so work is required to the main body.

John P

27/05/17 – 07:33

Update on St.Helens K199 (KDJ 999) Big Bertha.
The clutch hydraulics have now been sorted and the engine started for the first time in 15yrs.
It still resides at the North West Transport Museum in St.Helens, there is going to be a show next year at the town hall square where it is hoped K199 will be on display.

John P

02/05/18 – 07:50

Does any one know if Big Bertha k199 is running yet?

John M

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

10/06/18 – 08:45

Yes it is running but unfortunately it cannot be extricated from the position it is in at the museum but the interior has been completely repainted on the lower deck to the standard of what it was when it was in service with St. Helens.

Norman Johnstone