Quite awhile ago on the ‘Q&As’ page there was a question titled “Ex Rhondda Regents” which questioned the number of AEC Regents that joined the fleet of Smiths Luxury Coaches from the Rhondda. The question was answered but as usual the thread took on a different direction as to whether they had an AEC or Crossley gearbox, this resulted in the contribution by David Beilby of the above vehicle.
David also provided the following copy, NTG 137 was formerly Rhondda 284 and is seen here in April 1968. The hidden connection to the “ex Rhondda Regents” question is that it was working the somewhat ill-fated Crossley Omnibus Society Grand Southern tour over the Easter Weekend. Ill-fated as the Society’s ex-Oldham Crossley 368, which was due to work the first leg from Manchester to Reading, had a differential failure at Stone in Staffordshire (the upside of that is that it was fitted with a reconditioned differential afterwards by Oldham Corporation). I wasn’t on the tour but Stan Fitton, the Secretary of the Society and tour organiser, was and this photo is one of his taken on this fascinating tour which involved visits to the Bournemouth and Reading trolleybus systems and Provincial (Gosport and Fareham) NTG 137 provided the transport for most of the tour. If anyone can tell me where this photograph was taken I would be very grateful as I’ve no idea. The fairground ride in the background may provide a clue and I think it’s safe to assume the bus didn’t reach this location through the arched bridge behind. Unfortunately in the strip of negatives containing the above shot the previous photo is of Oldham 368 at Manchester Victoria and the one after is in Weymouth. So it’s somewhere between Manchester and Weymouth!
Well that narrows it down a bit David.
The “Ex Rhondda Regents” question can be read here.
Photograph and part copy contributed by David Beilby
05/02/11 – 09:30
I can shed no light on the mystery location, but NTG 137 brings back memories. My original question was poorly worded: I probably gave the impression that both the ex-South Wales Regent Vs and the ex-Rhondda Regent IIIs were spongy to drive. The Vs WERE, but the IIIs were nice and crisp. I’m also grateful for the clarifications about Crossley’s role in AEC gearbox design and production.
Ian Thompson
26/03/11 – 07:30
I started at Smiths in 1968 aged 15 as an apprentice coachbuilder and left in 1978. I have many happy memories of my time there in particular the many characters that worked there. Alf Smith the Guvnor as we had to call him was a true gent, he lent me 20 quid from his wallet to buy a Lambretta which I had to pay back at 10 bob a week. I would love to hear from anybody else that worked there.
Barry Armstrong
28/03/11 – 10:30
Barry, I left Smiths in 68, so we may or may not have overlapped, but I’m equally keen to meet other ex-Smiths folk. You’re right about the Guvnor: until you got to know him he seemed a bit remote in his smart clothes, sweeping into the yard in his Jaguar, but he was really a very kind, decent man. A pal of mine is scanning hundreds of photos he took in the 50s and 60s, including many of Smiths Coaches. What we haven’t got are pictures of the characters, in all their variety!
Ian Thompson
21/07/12 – 17:11
I was on that ‘ill-fated’ tour but it was a long time ago and the old memory ain’t what it was. As I recall, after we broke down at Stone we had a long wait until a very comfortable coach arrived from Reading. This got us to Reading in the wee small hours and we changed onto the Regent III. All I can remember is that it was damned cold and I couldn’t sleep – unlike some! I don’t think we stopped again until we got to Weymouth, where we stopped for brekky. After that the stops (as I recall) were Gosport and Fareham, Portsmouth Corporation and Bournemouth, where we had a somewhat shortened trolleybus ride to that originally planned. Then it was back to Reading, where Stan Fitton canvassed b&b places, starting off with us youngsters, and had the job of convincing sundry landladies were were not Aldermaston Marchers. I think some of the oldsters had to kip on benches in Reading pubs, but again, memory fades. So I guess the answer is likely to be Weymouth or Bournemouth, but I honestly don’t know.
Brian Wainwright
08/06/14 – 07:29
The location is the old Westham Coach Park in Weymouth, as confirmed by the ‘Wild Mouse’ in the background, and by my wife, who grew up just along from the coach park in Abbotsbury Road, and as a girl used to cut through it.
London Transport 1952 AEC Regent III 9613E Weymann L53R
Just a short contribution but I thought you may be interested in the above shots of ex London Transport RLH 32 which looked a real treat at the Oxford bus rally last Sunday 16th October. As you can see it is still in the Samuel Ledgard livery which it received in 2007 for the 40th Anniversary of the Samuel Ledgard Society Re-enactment running day on Sunday 14th October of that year. The vehicle has been owned by Time Bus Travel of St. Albans since 1997 fortunately it narrowly escaped being converted into a mobile home in 1975
Ah, the RLH, one of my favourites! Looking forward to seeing RLH 48 later today at Cobham/Brooklands Museum’s first major event at the new museum site. RLH 32 will gladden the heart of Chris Y.
David Oldfield
23/10/11 – 11:27
……and it gladdens my heart to see one, too, David, since I recall them, in my three years spent in London, running on the South Wimbledon circular 127 route. The strange thing is, that although they were originally bound for Midland General, I have never actually seen a photo of one in that company’s livery. It certainly looks smart in SL’s livery, though. Nice post!
Chris Hebbron
23/10/11 – 11:30
I had the honour, and I mean that most seriously, of conducting RLH 32 all day and evening on the day of the Samuel Ledgard commemoration – the beautifully restored vehicle represented the four RLHs which Samuel Ledgard operated (RLH2/4/6/8). Free public journeys, massively supported, were operated on Ledgard routes. I wore my genuine uniform which I’ve kept all these years, and used Setright machine SL 40 (I bought it some years ago) and real SL tickets. The day was even more memorable for me, as it was fifty years almost to the day since I started work as an eager young conductor in October 1957. SL 40 was also at our Otley and Ilkley depots throughout its existence. Just to add the final touch of nostalgia to the day preserved ex Bristol Leyland PD1/ECW LAE 13 was present – my first Ledgard bus in passenger service when I started driving in 1961 was LAE 12 !! Its scarcely possible to express sufficiently our gratitude to the gentlemen Messrs Pring for their expensive and superb restoration of MXX 232 and for bringing it all the way north to star in the Day’s events. You can see me in my smart conductors uniform and a shot of RLH 32 whilst way up north at this link.
Chris Youhill
24/10/11 – 07:44
Brooklands was the “very best of London Buses” – and it certainly was. Everything seemed to be in showroom shine condition and there was an excellent cross section of vehicles with a good route network. …..and yes, RL48 was in excellent condition and on top form out on the road. Chris H – I’m not sure any of them actually got to Midland General. They, along with Notts & Derbys, got some rather splendid KSW6G/ECW instead in 1953. They weren’t AEC/Weymann but they rather fine nonetheless.
David Oldfield
24/10/11 – 07:45
Lovely photos. The Weymann bodied Regent III was certainly a classic and an all time favourite of mine. I travelled home from school daily on Rochdale’s highbridge versions in the early 60’s. Just also noticed the Ford 100E behind in both views was exactly like my first car, a 1956 model acquired in 1965 – ah nostalgia!
Philip Halstead
24/10/11 – 13:44
Here is a picture of RLH 32 taken in 1970 at Woking early in London Country days. It was then allocated to Addlestone Garage, but it didn’t last much longer with LCBS as it was withdrawn in July 1970. The Ledgard RLHs were Nos 2,4,6 and 8, KYY 502/4/6/8, which arrived at Armley between December 1964 and February 1965.
Roger Cox
25/10/11 – 06:55
Nice to see the bus in Woking, Roger C, a place I had and still have connexions with. They were based not just at Addlestone, but also Guildford Garage, but many of the routes didn’t need lowbridge vehicles at all. always felt that the red livery suited them best. My understanding, David O, was that Midland General ordered thirty, but only took ten in the end, the other twenty going to LTE.
Chris Hebbron
25/10/11 – 06:59
RLH 2/4/6/8/ were purchased by Ledgard specifically for the Horsforth to Otley services, operated from Yeadon Depot, which required lowbridge vehicles. Funny though how “needs must”, and on Saturday nights Otley depot operated three dance specials from Ilkley Town Hall, one of which was to Yeadon. Allocation of drivers for these appeared on the typewritten weekly master sheet at Otley and Ilkley Depots and in red block letters was shown as :-
DOUBLE DECK – KEEP TO CENTRE OF ROAD UNDER HENSHAW BRIDGE !!
Chris Youhill
25/10/11 – 07:01
I’m afraid this subject always arouses a little hostility in me because I never seem to see these vehicles ascribed correctly. In 1948, Midland General ordered thirty of these vehicles but it was decreed by the British Transport Commission that ten would have to suffice and when they were delivered in 1950, being registered ONU 630-639, the remaining twenty were diverted to London Transport. Midland General received payment from LT for them. The correct description should therefore be (in my opinion!) ‘London Transport’s Midland General type Regents’ Alas, I don’t hold out much hope of this but I’m as nostalgic about one sadly missed blue operator as Chris Y is about another!
Chris Barker
25/10/11 – 07:02
Before being taken over by the BTC, Midland General ordered 30 Regent/Weymann lowbridge buses when they only needed 10, in the hope of staving off the Bristol invasion for as long as possible. BTC was having none of this, and diverted 20 to London Transport, where they became the first 20 RLHs. That left 10 at Midland General, one of which is seen here //www.sct61.org.uk/mg426.htm
Peter Williamson
25/10/11 – 11:34
I believe there were one or two routes in the Chesterfield/Alfreton area that required lowbridge buses. In addition the B8, Nottingham – Mansfield (by a peculiar circuitous route) also required them on account of a railway bridge near Bestwood Colliery. Despite being deprived of the remaining 20 lowbridge Regents, I think I am right in saying that no Bristols reached Midland General until the Lodekkas in 1954. The 15 KSW6Gs delivered in 1953 were actually designated Notts & Derby Traction, to replace trolleybuses on the A1 Nottingham – Ripley service. Actually, when the trolleybuses were withdrawn, the A1 (via Basford) ceased to be the main Riply service, and the KSWs operated on the parallel B1 (via Bobbersmill), displacing, in the main, highbridge preselector Regent IIIs of around 1949 vintage.
Stephen Ford
25/10/11 – 11:35
One of my not very good shots I’m afraid the original is very very dark but it is in colour.
Peter
26/10/11 – 05:50
Thx, folks, for the full story (with link and colour photo) of these interesting buses. How different the MG ones look from their LTE cousins, with different destination display, upstairs roof ventilators and square number plate below windscreen. LTE did not change the side windows from the sliding version, though. I only saw MG vehicles when visiting relatives in Chesterfield and don’t recall seeing these at all. MG buses seemed to lurk in this town. Maybe, from the brief glimpses of their vehicles, I didn’t recognise them for what they were.
Chris Hebbron
26/10/11 – 15:51
It occurs to me that although Midland General became a constituent part of BTC in 1948 (and failed in its ploy to stave off Bristols for as long as possible!) it managed to keep its livery for many years. What other BTC companies, if any, retained their individual liveries? I exclude London Transport.
Chris Hebbron
26/10/11 – 16:53
MG was part of Balfour Beattie – who of course still exist in transport infrastructure (i.e. railways). They generated their own electricity for Notts and Derby and were thereby nationalised under the nationalisation of the power industry. It has not occurred to me until this recent post that MG had deliberately over ordered so that they could have as many of their beloved AEC/Weymanns as possible. [Pity they were rumbled.] Red and White and Cheltenham and District were also Balfour Beattie and retained their own distinctive liveries until NBC days – just that reds and whites didn’t stick out so much. Even so, there was still a greater element of freedom of liveries with BTC/Tilling than with NBC. [United and Crosville coach liveries not to mention Brighton and Hove.]
David Oldfield
26/10/11 – 17:48
With respect, I don’t think that the Red and White group of companies was associated with Balfour Beatty. Balfour Beatty certainly owned Notts and Derby, Midland General and Mansfield and District, but Red and White United Transport was a separate group which included, apart from Red and White’s own services, those of Cheltenham District, Newbury and District, South Midland, United Welsh and Venture of Basingstoke. The group sold out its British bus operations to the BTC in 1950, but retained its overseas interests under the name United Transport Company, until it disposed of these to the BET group in 1971.
Roger Cox
26/10/11 – 18:20
Glad my photos of RLH32 have given pleasure. I was particularly interested in Roger’s photo of RLH32 working out of Addlestone Garage (WY). In the late’60s, I was working at Plessey Radar in Addlestone and spent many a happy lunch hour around the garage. I am sure I must have seen her then, but regrettably have no photos.
Allan Machon
27/10/11 – 07:23
I have a feeling that the Red & White Group were always independent until voluntarily selling out to the BTC – how they must have cursed, because they were (to the best of my knowledge) the last company to succumb (at least voluntarily) before the Labour Government fell. Cheltenham District were owned by Balfour Beatty until Red & White bought them out a short time before the outbreak of war. It was stupid of me to have forgotten about C & D, which were on my doorstep. As you say, David O, they didn’t stick out so much (and I’m colour-blind)!
Chris Hebbron
27/10/11 – 07:24
Cheltenham District had been a Balfour Beatty company but was sold to the Red & White group in 1939. Another BB company was Llanelli & District which was absorbed by South Wales in 1952. Interesting comments about the ordering of these vehicles, Midland General had some very lucrative services and also some very hilly routes. Perhaps the thought of fully loaded buses going up steep hills led them to conclude that the 9.6 litre Regent was a better prospect than what they were destined to receive from Bristol!
Chris Barker
27/10/11 – 12:08
Yes, Midland General can’t have been over-impressed by their first experience of Bristols – in my earlier posting I had forgotten that in 1953 they received three second hand lowbridge K5Gs from Hants & Dorset (two 1939 and one 1940 vintage). Thrashing one of them up the hill from Langley Mill to Heanor market place would have been a slow and noisy experience! About 1963, the 7.7 litre crash gearbox Regent IIs only came out on Saturdays on the Nottingham – Alfreton run (B3/C5). Yet I recall hearing a driver express his strong preference even for these over the everyday Lodekkas. His comment was, “Put one of these [Regents] in first and it’ll climb up the side of a house.”
Stephen Ford
30/10/11 – 06:26
I was always told that Red and White was started by the Watts family who I believe are still in business as tyre fitters.
Philip Carlton
30/10/11 – 17:35
Correct: Watts of Lydney, Glos., are a very large tyre company with a global presence,including aircraft, fork lift truck and industrial tyres.
Chris Hebbron
23/03/12 – 06:46
Reading Chris’s story about drivers of double deckers being strongly advised to keep to the centre of the road under a certain bridge reminded me of at least one other notice. When much younger I liked to sit in the seat behind the driver, I was fascinated by a notice in the cab of Maidstone & District double deckers which read ” This a highbridge double decker not to be driven into Bexhill, Sittingbourne or Tenterden garages”. As none of the local companies operated lowbridge buses in the area I was at that time unsure of the difference between the two types this being around 65 years ago. I know that at a later date an extension was built onto Bexhill garage to allow highbridge buses into that part only, I only drove coaches into Tenterden garage so I am sure if any alterations were made there and never even saw Sittingbourne garage
Diesel Dave
23/03/12 – 16:38
London Transport had to pick their bus garages carefully when they received their austerity buses during the war, as they were taller than the usual LT spec. Their garages were inherited from a motley collection of past companies and fortunately some had high-enough entrances to cater for them. Most Guys finished up in East London and most Daimlers in Merton/Sutton Garages.
Chris Hebbron
26/05/12 – 07:01
This might be one for Chris Youhill (who’s postings I’ve followed on other sites): why work for Ledgard’s, as opposed to LCT, BCT or WYRCC? I suppose location might be a factor: only Ledgard had a depot in Otley or Yeadon, but in Bradford surely BCT offered better working conditions? Similarly in Ilkley wouldn’t WYRCC have offered better conditions than Ledgard? And couldn’t Armley-based staff have travelled on the frequent LCT services to LCT’s Bramley depot? WYRCC/BCT/LCC all ran more modern fleets . . . What was it that tied staff to Ledgard’s? And, for that matter, why did staff in any town with both a company and “corpo” depot (Halifax for example) choose the former over the latter – location of depots? or what??
Philip Rushworth
26/05/12 – 09:30
Well there’s another cat put among the pigeons, Philip!
David Oldfield
26/05/12 – 16:48
While Chris Y is getting steam up (for which I am waiting with baited breath!), I’ll throw in my pennyworth. All sorts of reasons. Leaving aside the political “labour/public versus conservative/private” debate, different operators created different impressions and reputations for themselves. “Xyz is a lousy company and I wouldn’t work for them if they were the last employer on earth” etc. You will know from my comments elsewhere that I was a fan of Nottingham City Transport – it always seemed efficient and competent, and its buses were usually well-kept – even the older ones. BUT NCT had a reputation – they waited for nobody. With the conductor on the platform, they would ring off with you no more than three paces away, and a pre-selector Regent , second gear engaged and held only on the footbrake would take off like a greyhound. You stood no chance! Barton’s on the other hand, and South Notts too, would wait for any runners, and their conductors were generally more considerate, helping with pushchairs, luggage etc. Obviously there is more scope to re-coup time on longer interurban journeys, so in a way this is understandable. On the other hand, Barton as an employer had a reputation for being high-handed. The company belonged to the family, and any driver who damaged a bus got his marching orders. Obviously staff who were also enthusiasts might have their own reasons for wanting to work for this, rather than that operator – especially those that ran varied and interesting fleets. And don’t forget that in the 1950s and 60s there was a degree of government control over pay through the Ministry of Labour’s Wages Inspectorate – so it was not necessarily a case of small private operators paying significantly lower wages.
Stephen Ford
26/05/12 – 20:33
Many full-time employees of smaller, private companies started as part-timers, something not countenanced by most of the larger companies – except in Scotland.
Alan Hall
26/05/12 – 20:41
In the Halifax case, Philip, and very probably in other Corporation v Company scenarios, the influencing factors were the higher standards of wages and conditions on the municipalities.
Roger Cox
27/05/12 – 06:38
Stephen mentions the high handed attitude to staff from the Barton management the same autocratic attitude was practised by Samuel Ledgard prior to his death in 1952. There are many apocryphal stories about his attitude to staff. One is of a guard being sacked after Mr Ledgard saw him riding a motor bike and told he was not paid enough to have such a machine and he was sacked! Another is when an elderly passenger told a crew they were running early. The guard told the passenger it was”nowt to do with thee” The next day the man was summoned to see Mr Ledgard aka the old man. Leeds Corporation were also strict although higher pay was the norm with numerous stringent fines and restrictions for transgressors.
Chris Hough
30/05/12 – 07:25
I was most amused by Stephen’s accurate expectation that I shall be “getting steam up” and he won’t be disappointed !! However I’m going on holiday for ten days or so and therefore I’ll write it when I get back. The matter of staff loyalty to independent operators is a complex one and I should be able to outline many aspects which will, I think, surprise Philip.
Chris Youhill
12/06/12 – 07:09
In answer to Philip’s query of the 26th Ultimo (as “last month” used to be referred to in the days of quills and ink) I think that, to avoid writing a complex book here on OBP, I can sum up the subject in two simple words – “JOB SATISFACTION.” In the case of the Samuel Ledgard undertaking it was of course not the usual small independent operator but was a large concern with five depots, or to be strictly accurate four depots and one “running shed.” The Firm was a very good employer indeed and paid wage rates well above what was necessary, but quite reasonably in return insisted rigidly that “the job was done properly” – as a minority who thought otherwise soon found out as they queued at the Labour Exchange !! The network of busy tightly timed services was an interesting one, varying between well patronised interurban routes through local town facilities to medium length outer district forays. Comprehensive rotas were in force at all depots and all staff worked interestingly on all routes operated from those premises. The Contract, Private Hire, Express Service and Excursion functions were thriving and varied. The fleet was quite magnificent in its variety of chassis and bodywork makes and models – new and, after the demise of the Founder Samuel, second hand. A duty could easily involve a new synchromesh AEC, followed by a new or second hand manual Leyland PD and, later in the day a preselector Daimler (new or “previously owned”) – and perhaps an Albion Valkrie or a 1930 ex Birmingham Regent 1 very successfully posing as a Burlingham veteran luxury coach/maid of all work thirty years “new.” Well, enough of the nostalgia which really made the job so very enjoyable and varied. It must be stressed that the Firm’s services were so totally reliable, and greatly appreciated by the Public, that such a level has never been seen in the area since and is still greatly missed. The vehicles, regardless of pedigree, were superbly maintained by very proud craftsmen staff and well treated by drivers with a pride, and ANY lost mileage (which was so rare as to be a sensation followed by a searching enquiry) was regarded as a very serious matter indeed and was virtually never caused by a breakdown. Yes, the Municipal and Group operators may have appeared to offer better conditions and in some ways did, but some of their modes of operation were the road to boredom and insanity. I have also worked for Leeds City Transport where OPO drivers or crews lived on the same route year in year out and, in the case of the crews, with the same “mate” day in day out. This system encouraged widespread work dodging as a science by those so inclined of whom there were plenty (classed conceitedly by themselves as “fast men” which in reality meant gearbox, flywheel and diff wreckers) and double the work for those who wouldn’t lower their standards. I also worked for West Yorkshire at Ilkley which was better, as you did all the routes and had a different colleague every week. I finished my career for the last fourteen years with the Pontefract family owned firm of South Yorkshire – in effect a miniature version of Samuel Ledgard’s – where good wages were paid and the vehicles were also superbly maintained, and everyone worked all the routes long and local. By the way Philip, just a small point, but West Yorkshire did in fact have a depot in Yeadon High Street. So, there you have it, I’ve tried to explain as briefly as possible “Why work for Ledgard’s” – believe me I wish I could turn back the clock to October 1957 and start all over again – as Mr. Sinatra famously sang “I did it my way.”
Chris Youhill
12/06/12 – 18:47
Nice to see you on the platform of D213/HGF 690, which Sam’l Ledgard had from 1954 to 1960. I’d like to have seen them in SL’s excellent livery. Did you start as a conductor and work up to driver? I think your reply was very appropriate. Within reason, pay is less important than job satisfaction and a good employer encourages a loyal and stable workforce. And you were lucky to have lived in an era of buses of various ages, makes and technical differences. It needed skill and empathy to drive a vehicle with a crash, then synchromesh gearbox, then a pre-selective gearbox, and make a good job of it.
Chris Hebbron
13/06/12 – 09:30
Sorry, I meant HGF890. My abiding memory of these buses was how imposing they looked from the outside, being very tall at 14′ 6″, and spacious inside, due, I suppose, to their high roofs. they sported LT’s three-piece indicators, which was unattractive at the rear, seemingly stuck on with glue! Looks as if SL unstuck them from the above photo!
Chris Hebbron
13/06/12 – 09:33
Chris Y s comments on LCT are interesting when my dad was a guard from 1953-1984 he had a total of three drivers in that time For much of the period different garages worked allocated routes although this changed as OMO spread and crews moved to the remaining 2 man routes and the use of universal rostering meant that all depots eventually worked all routes. There also existed a “senior rota” for long serving crews whereby they did not have extremes of starting and finishing times Like many bus operators LCT had to take what it could get in terms of recruits when people were reluctant to work unsocial hours in a time of full employment this did not in many cases lend itself to good customer relations and the service and the publics perception of the service suffered As a result a whole phalanx of potential passengers were lost for good
Chris Hough
13/06/12 – 09:34
Thanks Chris Hebbron – yes the London Sutton depot “HGFs” were a fine model full of real character. One hundred of them were delivered between May and November 1946 – Daimler CWA6/Park Royal. In 1953/4 we acquired no less than twenty two of them at a time when the prewar fleet had to be replaced – they performed heroically and handled heavily loaded services punctually and reliably on very harsh roads. They retained a lovely London feature in the cabs above the windscreens, in Gill Sans lettering, “DOUBLE DECK- HEIGHT 14’6” To my utter amazement they were apparently the first London buses to feature a continuous cord bell in the lower saloon – I was always under the impression that this had been a London feature !! The sound emitted by the cab roof buzzer to indicate that the upper saloon bell push was being used was sheer joy, and bestowed a most beneficial free foot massage on the front seat passengers up there. The picture was taken at Ilkley in December 1957 in my second month as a conductor. The Firm did not teach people to drive, and so I obtained my PSV licence elsewhere before eagerly returning to where my heart lay, and my first duty as a driver was a late turn on a Friday on the very busy Leeds – Guiseley – Ilkley service. The bus was ex Bristol Leyland PD1/ECW LAE 12 which behaved like a dream and performed like a trooper.
Chris Youhill
13/05/13 – 07:34
Chris et al, sorry! I’ve only just stumbled on your replies to my question: the answers were, quite frankly, staring me in the face.
Philip Rushworth
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
09/03/19 – 06:01
Thank you all for all these wonderful postings … and a special thank you to the delivery driver of one ex LT RT, who stopped and rescued me and other hitch-hikers from freezing to death at the side of the A1 back in November 1963. He dropped me at the baths on Kirkstall Road having turned left on his way to the Armley Depot. It was a slow ride in thick fog.
Kingston upon Hull Corporation Transport 1949 AEC Regent III 9612E Weymann H30/26R
As part of the replacement programme for the post-war AEC Regents, by Leyland Atlanteans, a number of second-hand vehicles were purchased by Hull Corporation. As mentioned in a previous Hull Corporation posting one of these batches were twelve AEC Regents from Leicester Corporation, which were purchased in 1966. They were allocated fleet numbers 201 to 212, but this was amended in October, 1966 to 101 to 112. Nine of the vehicles which were then in service had their fleet numbers altered, but 109, 110 and 112, entered service carrying the new numbers. Registration marks were FBC 282 to 288, 291 to 295. They were withdrawn between November 1968 and December 1969. The photo shows 103 (FBC 284) leaving the Coach Station on service 30 to Stoneferry.
The streamlined livery on this strangely old-fashioned body style gives this bus a very 1930s feel.
Paul Haywood
30/04/12 – 07:42
The bodies were actually MCW, not Weymann, based on a design going back to 1933! Obviously upgraded and updated, but nevertheless to the old basic shape. Very attractive too, but I think they looked even more wonderful in Leicester’s glorious maroon and cream. LCT had another batch of Mark IIIs, with Brush metal bodies, and these too were very attractive vehicles, the post war Brush metal framed bodies being most unlike the composite style. Leicester was a most interesting fleet, right from the early days, and one which I plan to study in a bit more detail as I have lived near Leicester now for over 40 years. Anyone fancy joining in?
John Whitaker
30/04/12 – 09:07
Talk about unobservant, I’d not even looked at the “title” paragraph. Just to be really awkward, John, they are MCCW (Metropolitan Cammell Coach Works). MCW (Metropolitan Cammell – Weymann) was a marketing company until the two firms merged in 1965/6 to form a new MCW manufacturing company.
David Oldfield
01/05/12 – 07:03
I thought MCCW stood for Metropolitan Cammell Carriage and Wagon (Co Ltd). That’s what it said on Manchester Corp’s body plates. I think that more than anything else it’s the sharply raked-back of the front, and consequent small first upper deck window, that makes this design look so archaic.
Peter Williamson
01/05/12 – 07:04
Hi David – Sorry MCCW stood for Metropolitan Cammell Carriage and Wagon, a builder solely of railway rolling stock until a diversification into steel framed bus bodies circa 1930. Bodies of the same basic design as FBC 284 were also supplied to Nottingham, Salford, Wallasey and Glasgow (Glasgow’s were built by both MCCW and Weymann’s).
Michael Elliott
01/05/12 – 19:38
Peter and Michael, I knew that and was just waiting for someone to correct me. It was a moment of unforgivable senior madness. Forgive my lapse of standards. [see other post!!!]
David Oldfield
16/07/12 – 06:23
I remember both these and the Brush bodied ones in service in Leicester. Powerful engines and pre-select gearboxes gave a very smooth ride – far more refined than the All-Leyland PD2s, in my opinion.
Adrian Griffiths
13/07/18 – 07:35
Does anyone know if Hull CT reregistered these purchases with local registration numbers. Reason for asking is that there has recently been posted on the Old Hull facebook page a picture of a bus not in any of the Hull operators livery but bearing a local reg No GKH 384.
Reg Oakley
14/07/18 – 06:57
The bus in the photograph Reg Oakley refers to is a Leyland TD series, and its registration matches its age, falling in the gap between a batch of Hull AEC Regents and a pair of East Yorkshire Leyland TD7s. Therefore it isn’t a re-registration. Hopefully someone will recognise it.
Peter Williamson
14/07/18 – 10:56
I’ve created the link below to the facebook page mentioned by Reg Oakley (above) – creating such a link is perfectly within the rules. If you scroll down the comments on the said facebook page you’ll see that the vehicle has been identified as being ex-Hull Corporation, one of four Leyland TD7/Leyland diverted to Hull in 1942, 200-3 (GKH 381-4). In the facebook pic (reputedly taken in 1960, the year of GKH 384’s withdrawal from the passenger fleet), it looks as though it might have been transferred to an alternative council department.
Titan no. 203 went to the City Engineer’s Department for staff transport to new estates on the edge of the city and was given an all green livery and lasted until sometime in 1963. Believed scrapped in 1964. Regents 245 and 250 also went the City Engineer in 1966.
Malcolm J Wells
17/07/18 – 06:31
This bodywork reminds me so much of Provincial of Gosport’s similar-bodied pre-war buses – only the post-war radiator giving the game away as to the Hull version’s relative newness!
Sheffield Corporation 1948 AEC Regent III Weymann H30/26R
The three batches of Weymann bodied AEC Regent III’s, comprising forty vehicles in all, were, to my mind at least, arguably the most attractive of all the double deckers taken into stock by Sheffield Transport Department in the immediate post-war period. The initial batch of ten, 527-536 (JWB 727/828/729-736) probably had the edge, with their half drop windows instead of the top sliders fitted to the other two deliveries of fifteen vehicles each, 558-572 (JWE 858-872) and 250-264 (KWE 250-264), one of the latter batch which is seen here. The rear ends of these buses always looked particularly attractive to me, with the well radiused top corners to the platform window, not to mention that classic of an emergency window upstairs. And of course, the outswept bottom panels of these Weymann bodies only added to their overall elegant appearance. It was an overcast afternoon in July, 1961 when 258 was recorded on film, having just swept through the doors of Herries Road garage, about to take up service on one of the 94 group of workers services from the large Southey Green and Parson Cross housing estates to the miles of steelworks at Brightside and Templeborough. Later that same year, 258, along with sister Regents 251/2/4, were withdrawn and sold to Grimsby-Cleethorpes Transport for further service, a couple of the quartet lasting a further seven years, not being finally withdrawn from the seaside until 1968, having given a very creditable twenty year service life.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Dave Careless
04/06/13 – 18:05
The transfers became Grimsby-Cleethorpes Transport numbers 41 (KWE 258), 48 (KWE 251), 49 (KWE 252) and 50 (KWE 254). The intervening numbers 42-47 were occupied by similarly Weymann-bodied Regent IIs ex London Transport (HGC 233, 222, 227, 228, 219 and 225 respectively).
Stephen Ford
04/06/13 – 18:06
Classic AEC, classic Weymann, classic Sheffield, shear perfection; or am I prejudiced? Ah, so what?
David Oldfield
05/06/13 – 06:07
527 – 536 also didn’t have the out-swept skirt and were delivered without the smudge roof. Regrettably, I had little contact with these fine beasts as Herries buses didn’t penetrate our corner of Sheffield until the 38 was replaced by the 42/53 cross city service. Occasionally the Roberts and Cravens did rush hour duty. Where would these Weymanns have been originally? Town Head Street? [Herries Road depot was not built until 1952.]
David Oldfield
05/06/13 – 18:04
David, when they were new, the initial batch 527-536 were at Leadmill Road, and all the others went to Bramall Lane garage. I remember riding on the 558-572 batch a lot around the time I took the picture, when they were working on the Petre Street-City-Graves Park service 34, some of my most enjoyable bus rides ever!
Dave Careless
06/06/13 – 06:16
Now that you mention it, I do remember them on Graves Park 34s. [Who would have done 74s? Wasn’t there some inter-working?] I was only 8 when that picture was taken. I wasn’t let loose, on my own, on a bus for another two years – and then only under controlled circumstances.
David Oldfield
06/06/13 – 17:08
Many of these Weymanns were indeed at Bramall Lane Depot. They serviced among others, 34 Graves Park/Petre Street (Reform Chapel) which was a replacement tram route from about 1925. The AEC 111s mostly on this route were normally with Northern Coach Builders squarer profile, which I personally preferred. I preferred them because of the interior lights, (which were ribbed squarish), the top deck emergency window (shaped like a loaf of Hovis) & the fact my dad drove this route daily for many years! The route 35 to Holythorpe Rise used the Weymanns pictured. The 33 route to Hemsworth (in my time), were what I thought were AEC 111s Park Royal with nice interiors, including a 1″ ish green band between windows & roof downstairs. This was my favourite at the time. Since getting back into buses, they could have been Cravens. The 36 route was a rush hour duplicate to Heeley Green. On this route you had anything with 4 wheels & an engine. This was my preferred transport to school. It could be pre-war, post war, single or double deckers. You never had the same bus 2 days running, heaven. The other route on the via Bramall Lane route was the 38 to Norton.
Andy Fisher
06/06/13 – 17:08
Upstairs front offside, of course, was always the preferred option, but a close second was the lower saloon nearside front seat, peering over into the cab and watching every action of the driver, manhandling the pre-selector lever through the gears as we bowled along the Wicker. Leaping off just before we came to a stop at Reform Chapel terminus at the Petre Street end of the route, and watching the conductor lean out and wind the blinds over the platform round to City and Hollythorpe Rise never ceased to fascinate. Happy summer days.
Dave Careless
07/06/13 – 05:50
No Park Royals between 1935 and 1955 (Monocoaches) or 1963 (Regent V front loaders). Could be Cravens but the Roberts had a more Park Royal profile. The 38 was originally Lowedges Road. It only became Norton when the 42/53 were redirected to Lowedges Road from Woodseats and Graves Park. I’m sure Bramhall Lane had closed by the time Norton took on the 38 route number. I think my favourites were Cravens and Weymann in that order. It would be another four or five years before my all time favourite (Roes) appeared for the first time. This time of year (summer) I would make a trek to the 38 (Lowedges Road) terminus at about this time (1800) to do the same, Dave. They were principally the OWE, RWB and SWE Regent IIIs – Roe, Roe and Weymann.
David Oldfield
08/06/13 – 07:56
Andy, square ribbed light fittings – yes, we had them in Nottingham too (and indeed Bartons no. 906, a second hand Leyland PD2 acquired from Yorkshire Woollen about 1961, had them as well). I’m away from home on holiday at the moment, but on my other computer at home I have a selection of “light” pictures (a strange but innocent fascination of mine!) and will post a photo when I get home.
Stephen Ford
08/06/13 – 17:50
My fascination does not stop at lights. The flat wheel rims of many buses compared to the dished ones on Leylands, (preferred) the Leyland wheel chrome rims compared to the AECs & Crossleys. The fact buses without chrome rims look awful & dated, shapes & styles of opening windows, different dashboards & last but not least rear emergency exit windows upstairs. Does this make me weird?
Andy Fisher
09/06/13 – 15:27
Andy. Weird? Not in the least. Emergency windows and wheel nut rings are the stuff of legend. For instance, not only the classic Weymann emergency window in the picture, which I referred to in the caption, but perhaps my all-time favourite, the two-piece rear upstairs window on the post-war Leyland bodies, to go along with the Leyland wheel trims to which you refer. As always, the devil is in the details. If somebody was to put out an expensive hardback volume on emergency window design, I’d be first in line to buy it. Or perhaps you would; hopefully they’d sell more than two copies. Agreed that buses without wheel trims tend to look unfinished somehow. Oddly enough, even though LT painted both wheels and trims brown, a Routemaster with brown wheels and no wheel trims, even though they weren’t chrome, just doesn’t look right. Thank goodness the LT trolleybus department operated under a different set of rules, and maintained the chrome wheel trims on those magnificent vehicles right to the end.
Dave Careless
17/06/13 – 06:47
Just having a look in my books, both Leyland & AECs did have rear centre hub adornments, instead of the 6 or 8 nuts. The Leyland was especially nice with rings & the Leyland logo. The AECs seem to just have the AEC triangle & letters similar to the radiator badge. Looking in my tram book, there is a picture of Haymarket from around 1936. Quite identifiable were the Weymann emergency exit, but also in the picture were rear emergency exit windows in the sausage shape windows similar to later Roes. If we did not have Roes in 1936, can anyone help me identify them please?
Andy Fisher
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
19/06/13 – 08:00
As promised, here is an interior picture showing the square fluted light fittings. Sadly these are mounted upside down (!) as they always were on Nottingham’s big fleet of 1950 trolleybuses, and the later Park Royal AEC Regents. The correct way was with the securing recess at the bottom edge – or at least, I always thought they looked more balanced that way.
Stephen Ford
19/06/13 – 14:33
Correct again Steven, these were the lights I remember. Going back to the sausage shape emergency exits, could these be Cravens or Roberts?
Andy Fisher
20/06/13 – 07:13
Either, but at at a guess more likely to be Cravens.
David Oldfield
20/06/13 – 07:15
Strange how there is a natural order of things and it’s not always the way things were designed to be! Whatever the ‘designed’ way here, I agree with you, Stephen! Of course, you can’t argue with ’round’ which is how I recall covered lights! However, shades were always better than bare bulbs. It was always a course of annoyance to me when they took the shades off the 1938 UndergrounD stock. Each one of those must have been a time-consuming conversion, when studied.
This shot is from the Ray Soper gallery contribution titled “Smith’s Luxury Coaches of Reading” click on the title if you would like to view his Gallery and comments. The shot is shown here for indexing purposes but please feel free to make any comment regarding this vehicle either here or on the gallery.
Kingston upon Hull Corporation Transport 1946 AEC Regent II Weymann H31/29R
I think any bus would look good in the K.H.C.T. livery but a Weymann flared skirt bodied Regent II looks just about perfect. This bus was one of a batch of 16 Regent IIs delivered in 1946, they were the first non utility bodied buses delivered to Hull after the war. They were followed the following year 1947 by a batch of 24 Regent IIIs then between 1948 and 1950 there were 56 more Regent IIIs delivered. These buses were desperately needed after the war due to the bombing that Hull received. K.H.C.T. certainly liked there AECs apart from 10 ex Newcastle Corporation Daimler CVG6s photo here all there double deckers were AEC until the arrival of the rear engined Leyland Atlanteans in 1960 which by the way were the first front entrance double deckers in the fleet.
The KHCT ‘streamline’ livery reached its peak on the Coronation trolleybuses. I spent many happy hours travelling to Brunswick Ave school, on these trolleybuses, what a shame none were preserved.
Photograph by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
Tynemouth and District 1948 AEC Regent II Weymann H30/28R
A pair of very handsome AEC Regents from the Northern General Tynemouth and District subsidiary. They are pictured at Whitley Bay Bandstand waiting to depart on the service 8 to North Shields Ferry Landing, they would follow exactly the same route as the tram service that ceased operation about 1931, not unsurprisingly it was know locally as ‘the track’. If my records are correct, between 1947 and 1949 Percy Main took delivery of 37 Regents, all were H30/28R’s. The 1947/8 intake were all Weymann bodied, 15 in 1947 FT 5698/712 – 128/52; followed by a further 14 in 1948, FT 6143/56 – 143/56. In 1949, 21 vehicles joined the fleet, they consisted of 8 AEC Regent 111’s with Northern Coachbuilders bodies, FT 6557/64 – 157/64 the first two carried the Wakefields name, the remaining 13 were all Pickering bodied as were, 10 Guy Arab’s FT 6565/74 – 165/74 and three re bodied Regent 1’s of I think 1936 vintage – FT 4220/22 – 93/5, they had previously been Weymann forward entrance. By the time I started in 1967 all the Regents had gone, but I seem to think the Northern Coachbuilders batch went first. The Regents were the last AEC Double Deckers to be bought by Percy Main but they kept faith with AEC for coaches and single deckers. As a footnote, in 1957 the three re bodied Regents were sold to Provincial as replacements for vehicles destroyed in a fire, the last one remained in service until 1963, by which time the chassis was 27 years old.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye
12/11/12 – 10:56
Strange how some things just work. This design was good when first introduced and just got better post war culminating in the superb four bay version. The interim (Aurora) still had character and style but the Orion never quite lived up to it’s predecessors. Like the Burlingham Seagull – “Follow that!” It’s not that easy.
David Oldfield
12/11/12 – 16:33
Can anyone tell me what type of gear control these vehicles used, manual or pre-select like the London Transport RT’s?
Norman Long
12/11/12 – 17:01
No options at all with the MkII Norman, AEC A173 7.7 litre (7.58) engine, four speed sliding mesh gearbox and vacuum assisted brakes.
Tynemouth and District 1948 AEC Regent II Weymann H30/26R
After the Intake of early 1940, no more vehicles arrived at Percy Main until 1946, in the meantime, seven vehicles were transferred to other Northern General Transport depots, eight more were requisitioned by the Ministry of War Transport.A total of 15 from a fleet of around 110 was a sizable chunk. For a while, spares availability became a problem, so it was not uncommon for vehicles awaiting parts to be cannibalised to keep others going. The first post war intake arrived in 1946 in the form of five H30/26R Northern Counties bodied 5GLW Guy Arab III’s. However, as has been mentioned before, Northern General Transport allowed its subsidiaries a degree of independence with vehicle choice and spec, so it was not long before Percy Main reverted to AEC. Between 1947/8 they took delivery of 29, H30/26R Weymann bodied Regent II’s, which at that time amounted to roughly a quarter of the fleet. The first batch delivered in 1947 were FT 5698 to 5712 and numbered 128 to 142, the 1948 intake were FT 6143 to 6156, numbered 143 to 156. 141-142 & 156 carried the Wakefields name but were otherwise identical. The Regent II chassis had a 7.7 Litre diesel engine, four- speed sliding mesh gearbox and friction clutch, buying wasn’t complicated, it was bog standard with no other options available, so it came down to a straightforward decision of take it or leave it. Like most vehicles of the period, by today’s standards they were unrefined, but they were well built rugged and reliable, and demanded a degree of respect, anyone foolish enough to try to abuse them would generally find that the Regent was made of stern stuff. They also had one essential ingredient that modern vehicles don’t have, a conductor! As anyone who has ever worked a dual crew bus will tell you, conductors will be the first to complain if the ride is anything less than acceptable. The choice of body was a different matter with umpteen options on offer, Percy Main opted for Weymann, the build quality was top notch, and arguably one of the best looking bodies of the period. they were no strangers to it having bought similar vehicles in 1940: 152, was from the 1948 intake and is seen here in its original livery. By the time of its first repaint “about 1951”, the black lineout had been dropped and the fleet name was much smaller, but the gold coach lines were still in vogue. Note the flip down metal DUPLICATE plate under the overhang, apart from the later Routemasters; this was a standard fitting on all Northern General Transport group half cabs
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye
28/07/14 – 07:57
It’s surprising how many Percy Main depot buses have appeared in model form. AEC Regent 135 (similar to the above photo) was issued by Corgi many years ago. They also issued Leyland Olympian 3593 from a later era. Britbus weighed in with Coastline Atlantean 3458. E.F.E. have been the most prolific with Leyland PD2 / Orion 230, AEC Renown as Tynemouth 333 and yellow Northern 3743, Atlantean / MCW yellow Northern 3194 as well as yellow Northern National 4444 and Coastline Wright Low Floor 4769. Quite an impressive representation really for one depot.
Keith Bruce
26/10/15 – 16:17
A query about this photo is the location. Looking at it, it could be Park Road, Whitley Bay. The area behind the bus was originally occupied by Whitley Park Hall. This later became a hotel, and part of the grounds became the Spanish City. The hotel closed and was demolished in the thirties. In the mid sixties, a new library was built on the site replacing the previous library which was located at the United bus station. All this has now gone. The Spanish city has been replaced by a new school, while the library has been relocated nearer the town centre. Park Road itself has since the late sixties been a one way street in the opposite direction to which the bus is travelling. None of this is relevant to the bus, but part of the fascination of old bus photos is seeing how much has changed – not just the buses, but the surroundings.
John Gibson
27/10/15 – 06:32
It could be Park Road, Whitley Bay, very close to the junction with Park Avenue.
Paul Robson
27/10/15 – 06:34
John, as you say, the photo was taken a long time ago, so everything may have changed. However, my guess would be that the bus is heading west along Linskill Terrace opposite the golf course, and the trees are in Northumberland Park
Ronnie Hoye
28/10/15 – 07:00
Linskill Terrace, Tynemouth, is another possibility. However the curve in the road there occurs at the north end of Washington Terrace and you would expect to see behind the bus some of the Edwardian-era houses between Washington Terrace and Park Avenue.
Paul Robson
28/10/15 – 07:01
When I first saw this photo, I was not too certain of it’s location. The photo as reproduced here has been somewhat cropped, but the bends in the road which can be seen more clearly in the original seem to match those on Park Road. There are also buildings in the distance which look to be those between Marine Avenue and the Spanish City. As Paul Robson says, it looks as if it was taken close to the junction with Park Avenue. I would agree however that it could be elsewhere and Ronnies suggestion of Linskill Terrace is certainly a possibility. Regarding Keith Bruce’s comments about models of Tynemouth vehicles, the E.F.E. model of 230 is a nice model, but it should be a PD3, not a PD2.
John Gibson
29/10/15 – 06:35
Having looked at this again, I think we could all be wrong. It could well be Wallsend Road, at the foot of Balkwell Avenue, opposite the Pineapple Pub. The trees would then be in the grounds of St Joseph’s R.C. school. The present church was built in the late 50’s or early 60’s, which would be after this photo was taken, and the area on the bend where the stone wall is now has a low brick wall which is at the edge of the car park.
Ronnie Hoye
01/07/22 – 06:03
Definitely Park Road, almost at Park Avenue junction. The park is Whitley Park, and the parkkeeper’s house is behind the stone wall – his son was a friend of my brother. The distant bend is indeed the Spanish City funfair location.Service 4 Gateshead was renumbered Service 1 Gateshead Lobley Hill Moorfoot subsequently.
Wakefields Motors 1948 AEC Regent II Weymann H30/26R
Having completed its journey, 156 is seen here turning round at Whitley Bay Bandstand before returning to North Shields Ferry Landing. The service 8 was known to crews as ‘the track’ because it followed the exact route of the Tynemouth and District trams. The AEC Regent II chassis was well built, rugged and reliable, and was available in two options, take it or leave it. The engine was a 7.7 litre diesel, and the transmission was a 4-speed sliding mesh gearbox with friction clutch. It was an entirely different matter when it came to choice of body. NGT Percy Main depot opted for the H30/26R Weymann. This is one of twenty nine of the type delivered to them between 1947 & 48; the 1947 intake were FT 5698 to 5712, 128/142, and 1948 were FT 6143 to 6156; 143/156; they were all ‘Tynemouth’ apart from 141 – 142 & 156 which carried the Wakefields name. The first vehicles to carry this style of livery layout were the 1958 Orion bodied PD3/4’s, so the photo is after that date, but just look at the collection of coaches in the background.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye
10/11/14 – 06:58
Good to see a Regent II. I used to take them for granted in Reading, where they were the mainstay of the motorbus fleet from 1947 to 64, but they seem rare today. Was the choice of 5 bays a matter of date, of chassis design or of operator’s choice?
Ian T
10/11/14 – 08:23
According to “Weymann Part 2”, these were delivered (due to shortages) without destination blinds and with metal panelling covering the “empty holes”.
David Oldfield
10/11/14 – 11:47
I think that the matter of 4- or 5-bay bodywork is a matter of date. The 5-bay was standard in the immediate post-war years, on AEC and other makes. I am fairly sure I read somewhere that Weymann re-designed the body as four-bay for the AEC Regent III chassis, but did not build it on other makes/types, at least initially. Perhaps those with access to the “Weymann Part 2” book will find some detail, as my memory may be in “error mode” on this one.
Michael Hampton
10/11/14 – 13:31
Michael, I don’t know when the change came about, but Percy Main’s 1952 Guy Arab III’s ‘FT 7381/90 – 181/90 were four bay type. They were also P/M’s first 8ft wide D/D’s, and the first with sliding cab doors.
Ronnie Hoye
10/11/14 – 13:32
I think, originally, that AEC and the body-builders colluded to make a four bay body – but it relied on body fixing points. Guy and then Leyland eventually caught up by building chassis with compatible points and then Daimler. [Bristol was obviously a different case.] What was more interesting was the reversion to five short bays with the appalling early Orions.
David Oldfield
14/11/14 – 14:56
What was the difference between a Regent II & III’s. We had Regent III’s in Sheffield around the same year. They had pre selector gearboxes though.
Andy Fisher
15/11/14 – 05:41
AEC Regent. Mark I, II and III. AEC Regent 661 petrol engine was built from 1929-1942, powered by an AEC A145 7.4 litre engine, many of the early examples had the open staircase later enclosed and the typical 30 seats over 26 seat layout became the standard design on a 27 foot long by 7 feet 6 inch wide chassis with over 7000 built. AEC Regent Mk II 661/O661 was developed in the late 1930’s at 27 feet 6 inches by 7 feet 6 inches with the A173, 7.7 litre 6 cylinder diesel oil engine, resulting in the London Transport RT 1-151, the Regent II was curtailed during the second world war but recommenced after the war with only 700 built. After the war AEC with London Passenger Transport Board had developed the AEC Regent III O961 with the more powerful AEC 9.6 litre engine. 8261 were built over the next 10 years, most of these were the iconic RT for London Transport.
Ron Mesure
15/11/14 – 05:42
The Regent II had a 7.7 litre engine, sliding mesh gearbox and vacuum brakes. The Regent III was its successor, and could be supplied with the same spec, in which case there was very little difference between the two. Most Regent IIIs however had the 9.6 litre engine, and many of these had air brakes and air-operated preselector gearboxes (especially in Yorkshire!). In this form the Regent III was a development of the London RT type which had its origins just before the war.
Peter Williamson
14/12/18 – 06:24
I have only just noticed that four years ago Ron Mesure attempted to give a fuller and more detailed answer to Andy Fisher’s question than mine. Unfortunately this is mainly incorrect. Firstly, the petrol engines used in the Regent 661 were of 6.1 litre capacity, the 7.4 litre A145 being reserved for the three-axle Renown. Diesel engines included an 8.8 litre and a 6.6 litre unit as well as a couple of Gardners (rarely fitted). Secondly, the version with the 7.7 litre engine was not called Regent II before the war and did not include RT1-151, which used a 9.6 litre engine like all subsequent RTs. Although designated as O661 and built before the Regent II was introduced, RT1-151 (and an odd similar chassis for Glasgow) are now regarded as the first Regent IIIs. Thirdly, the lengths quoted are incorrect, as the maximum length of a two-axle double decker was 26 feet until 1950.
London Transport 1946 AEC Regent II Weymann H30/26R
HGC 225 is an AEC Regent II with Weymann H56R body, and it dates from 1946. It wears Country Area green in this view, and the fleet number STL2692. Allowing for the London method of bus overhauls, how many chassis and bodies have worn this fleet number over the years? It is on Itchen Bridge, while taking part in the Southampton city transport centenary rally on 6 May 1979.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
19/03/17 – 10:49
“How many chassis and bodies have worn this fleet number over the years?” The answer is, just this one. These post war STL Regents didn’t last long enough with LT to pass through the Aldenham works, which only became fully operational in 1956. These buses were sold off by LT in 1955 as deliveries of the RT type became an embarrassment to the point where many new ones, together with others of the RTL class, were put straight into store upon receipt from the manufacturers. Some of these light STLs were used in 1954 on the 327 route at Hertford which traversed a weak bridge, but they were replaced in the following year by “pre war” (actually wartime) RTs which were less heavy than their post war cousins. This allowed the entire class of post war STLs to be sold to the dealer North of Leeds in July/August 1955. They soon found new owners with Dundee, Grimsby and Widnes corporations where they gave sterling service for upwards of six more years. STL 2692 went to Grimsby who got twelve years out of it before withdrawing it early in 1968.
Roger Cox
21/03/17 – 06:19
Thanks, Roger!
Pete Davies
21/03/17 – 06:20
Roger, do you happen to know if one of the municipalities you mention, perhaps Grimsby, changed the gearboxes in their examples from crash to pre-select? I’m sure I’ve read it somewhere!
Chris Barker
21/03/17 – 08:45
Chris B – I hadn’t heard of this procedure, but if it did take place in Grimsby you have to wonder why go to such expense in a town which I assume is “as flat as a pancake” and driving a bus with a traditional transmission should surely present no problems.
Chris Youhill
21/03/17 – 15:55
Chris and Chris – I can find no record of any of these former LT STLs undergoing a gearbox change from crash to preselector, but, if true, the most likely candidate amongst the subsequent owners must surely be Dundee which had a fleet of Daimlers and AEC Regent III at that time. Do we have a Dundee expert on OBP? The Grimsby situation should be easily determined by an examination of HGC 225 itself.
Roger Cox
22/03/17 – 06:08
One of my wife’s friends lives in Grimsby. I’ll check and find out in respect of the pancakes . . .
Wife’s friend has been consulted. Grimsby is largely flat with bumps, but Cleethorpes is generally hilly with flat bits.
Pete Davies
22/03/17 – 06:10
I think I travelled on all of Grimsby’s ex-STLs (nos. 42-47 of which HGC225 was 47. 43 was HGC222 and 46 HGC219 – don’t know the others). I am sure that none were changed to pre-selectors. However there were four (I think) ex-Sheffield Regents – nos. 41 and 48-50 (?) with registrations in the KWE250 series. These had more or less identical Weymann bodies, and were pre-selectors from new. They were visually identifiable by the deeper windscreen. I’m away from home at the moment, so this is all from memory plus one or two snippets I have filed on here!
And then I realised…one of the Sheffield transfers featured in David Careless’s post in June 2013, and I responded at the time thus : “The transfers became Grimsby-Cleethorpes Transport numbers 41 (KWE 258), 48 (KWE 251), 49 (KWE 252) and 50 (KWE 254). The intervening numbers 42-47 were occupied by similarly Weymann-bodied Regent IIs ex London Transport (HGC 233, 222, 227, 228, 219 and 225 respectively).”
Stephen Ford
22/03/17 – 06:11
As a one-tome Grimbarian, I remember STL2692 as Grimsby No. 47, bought in 1955 with five other STLs to replace trolleybuses on the 10 route. Dundee was the only buyer of this batch of STLs to convert them to preselector gearboxes. HGC 225 served her initial Grimsby years in a crimson lake and cream livery, after the 1957 combination of the Grimsby and Cleethorpes operations, her colours were various permutations of blue and cream.
Mark Evans
12/01/19 – 08:25
As conjectured earlier, it was for the Dundee tram-replacement fleet that some of these London Transport Regent II were converted to pre-selector transmission. A Buses Extra article detailed the changes. I believe all the gearboxes were reconditioned, previously fitted to pre-war Dundee buses in process of withdrawal.
Stephen Allcroft
15/01/19 – 06:55
Thanks, Stephen A for the information, so it was Dundee who swapped the gearboxes for pre-selectors. I understand the post-war O661 Regent II was not offered with such a gearbox but the pre-war model (just Regent, not Regent I) was. I believe the gear selection was by means of a conventional type gear stick which rose from the floor rather than a steering column mounted unit although I’m not sure if this was universal. Stephen says the gearboxes were reconditioned units salvaged from pre-war buses. It would be interesting to know which method of selection was employed, whichever it was, it made Dundee’s conversions unique as Regent IIs.
Chris Barker
16/01/19 – 07:19
My recollection of all the London Transport pre-war pre-selective buses (I regard the first RT’s as being Wartime) I travelled on as having conventional floor-mounted gearlevers. I never came across a pre-war Daimler CO bus, but imagine that they would have had the simpler type of steering column lever which the CW types did in the war.
Chris Hebbron
18/01/19 – 06:34
My CO bus has the same lever set-up as CW
Roger Burdett
19/01/19 – 06:24
Thx, Roger B. “Why change something so simple?” might well have been Daimler’s attitude and it certainly continued with their CV’s. I had a neighbour when I lived at Morden, in Daimlerland, who’d worked both at both Putney and Merton Garages and felt that Daimler’s simple gearchange was preferable to the RT’s one.
Chris Hebbron
20/01/19 – 06:57
The later Daimler CVs (e.g. Derby Corporation’s fleet of CVG6s and no doubt many others) had an H-gate selector, similar to the AEC set-up, on the left side of the steering column (as opposed to the earlier quadrant type selector mounted on the right).
Stephen Ford
20/01/19 – 06:58
The quadrant type of gear selector used on Daimler’s CO, CW and early CV series was the same as on Daimler cars. The CV changed to the AEC type around 1953-5.
Peter Williamson
21/01/19 – 07:12
The preselector version of the Guy Arab had a floor mounted gear lever; Guy built its own preselector gearbox.
Roger Cox
24/08/22 – 06:36
I remember these 10 STLs arriving in Dundee country area green along with 30 Cravens-bodied RTs for tram replacement. The RTs with roofbox route number displays were instantly recognisable and were known locally as ‘London Buses’. Their moquette upholstery in place of the leather on the indigenous buses was also a recognition point once you were aboard. But the STLs looked so similar to the home-grown variety that none of my schoolmates would believe me that they were ex-LT. Their HGC series registrations made it obvious, but that convinced no-one! Very frustrating.
George
26/08/22 – 05:57
My only experience and sight of one was on Epsom Day in about 1950/51, when I took a ride back to Morden on one. It was the newest bus I saw that day, among all the other almost forgotten museum pieces raked out from dusty corners of garages. And a long way from its home garage in Hertfordshire! It was also the only AEC I travelled on with this Weymann’s bodywork: the others all being Leylands.
Chris Hebbron
29/08/22 – 06:30
A caption in ABC London Transport Buses either 1961 or 1962 (I’m not sure but it was at the time when only a few trolleybuses were still in service) stated that London Transport took delivery of provincial Regents and for convenience designated them as STL’s. Maybe a reader still has copy of the book and could give more information.
Andy Hemming
25/09/22 – 06:35
Here is a shot taken on an HCVC Brighton Rally in the early 1970s of HGC 225 as No.47 in the livery of Grimsby-Cleethorpes Joint Transport Committee.
Roger Cox
29/09/22 – 06:09
Thanks for that, Roger. I wonder if she’s still around. That’s a strange roof layout – anyone know the reason for it?
Chris Hebbron
30/09/22 – 05:43
I know NGT had some of these, three I think, and NGT’s depot at Percy Main had 29. That was out of a fleet of 105 vehicles, which included 12 coaches, and 6 single deckers, so over a third of the D/D fleet. They were all delivered between 1945 & 1948, and were withdrawn between 1958 & 1960. They all had 0661 engines, and all had crash boxes.
Ronnie Hoye
30/09/22 – 05:49
Chris H, I may be wrong but I believe the strange roof layout, not normally seen, was simply because the framework was on the outside of the single skin roof. I have vague recollections of riding on Midland General’s Weymann bodied Regent IIIs and remember seeing the exposed framework of the side panels from the interior. I’m not saying the bodies were meant to be lightweight at all but I’m pretty sure most of the panelling was single skinned.
Chris Barker
01/10/22 – 05:32
Sorry about the typo in my post chaps and chaperones. It should have been NCT (Newcastle) had three and not NGT written twice.
Re the unusual roof. The 29 in the Tynemouth & Wakefields fleet at Percy Main came in two batches. If memory serves, the first were the same as the one in the photo, with the frame on the outside, but the next batch (two years on) were double skinned. This was just after the war, and my feeling is that he exposed frame may have been due to material shortages rather than weight saving.
