Samuel Ledgard 1949 AEC Regent III RT Weymann H30/26R
In 1937-8 London Transport got together with AEC to jointly design and produce a new double deck chassis with AECs large 9.6 litre oil engine with air operated gearbox and brakes. From what I can gleam the prototype entered service in 1938 as ST1140 (EYK 396) but it had a body taken from a scrapped Leland Titan TD 111 or 118 seems to be a bit of a dispute on that. But in July 1939 it was given a brand new body and was then renumbered RT1. London Transport then ordered 150 more, RT2-151 which were delivered by the time production ceased in 1940 because of the war those 150 were bodied by London Transport themselves. I have another dispute here and that is by the end of production in 1954 according to one source nearly 7000 RTs had been delivered to London Transport but another source says that the highest fleet number was 4825 that’s a difference of 2000 or so. Maybe the 7000 is for total build but I do not think there was that many delivered new to other operators do you know leave a comment.
There were 4825 RT’s but the RT Family included RTL’s and RTW’s so the figure of nearly 7000 is probably correct.
Anonymous
The RTL was a Leyland Titan PD2/1 chassis with Leyland O.600 engine but with AEC preselect gearbox and bodied by Park Royal 1149, Metro-Cammell 450 and Weymann 31 all to a London Transport design.
The RTW was as the RTL except they were PD2/3 and all bodied with 8 foot wide bodies instead of the normal 7′ 6″ and all 500 were bodied by Leyland.
There was also the SRT which were 1939 AEC Regent STLs rebodied with brand new RT bodies there was 160 built in total.
So that makes 4825 RTs 1630 RTLs 500 RTWs which makes 6955 so there is the approx 7000 and if you add in the 160 SRTs this will give a total of 7115.
Spencer
New 7/12/1952 A.E.C. Regent III RT 0961 Chassis No: 6758 Engine Type: AEC 6cyl. A204 9.6ltr Weymann H30/26R Body No: W269 Entered Ledgards service 5th November 1963 Withdrawn: 14/10/67 Sold To Dunn (A1 Service) 02/68 Withdrawn: 11/71
Terry Malloy
What a nostalgic shot-a Sammie RT alongside some of West Yorkshire’s finery, and set in Chester Street bus station. There always seemed to be an RT parked up either there or in Otley bus station, as they were so numerous in the fleet. They had a lovely reassuring tickover, plus a delightfully tuneful transmission (fluid flywheel/pre-selector gearbox) and seemed to have an aura of indestructibility about them. Shame West Yorkshire didn’t keep a few running after takeover. It would have been interesting to see some in red and cream, almost harking back to their London days….
Brendan Smith
Brendan it is not generally known that, in the very hurried arrangements for the WYRCC takeover of Samuel Ledgard, West Yorkshire fleet numbers were allocated for most if not all of the Samuel Ledgard vehicles. The entire RT class, at least one of which (MLL 920) received a new C of F in the final week, were to be DA 1 – 34. I was lucky enough to be the first driver of the very first Otley Depot RT – NXP 864, RT 4611. It was overhauled and ready for use in the garage one Saturday night and I just couldn’t contain my excitement so pestered the late garage man to let us use it for the last two trips of our late turn. 8.10pm Otley – Leeds, 8.55pm Leeds – Otley, 9.50pm Otley – Leeds, 10.35pm Leeds – Otley. As expected it swallowed up the long ascent of the A660 to Bramhope in very fine style and comfort.
Chris Youhill
12/01/17 – 11:21
I think one or two comments on Spencer’s post (above) are appropriate. The chassis of the RTLs and RTWs differed from PD2/1s and PD2/3s in having a longer wheelbase (16’4″ instead of 16’3″) and air brakes (instead of vacuum) – there may have been other differences. I don’t think Leyland ever called the RTL/RTW chassis PD2/1 or PD2/3. There were 32 RTLs supplied new with Weymann bodies (RTL1307, 1601-31), making the RTL total 1,631 and the RT/RTL/RTW total 6,956. The SRTs came about by virtue of there being more new bodies available than chassis, so 160 ‘RT’ bodies were placed on existing STL chassis to make the SRT class. When the supply of chassis caught up the SRT bodies were transferred to new RT chassis, but those are included in the RT total of 4,825 – so to get the total of ‘RT’ family buses up to 7,115/6 you’re counting the SRT bodies twice.
David Call
13/01/17 – 06:41
The picture shows MXX 148 on Ledgard’s longest stage carriage route, one taken over with B & B Tours in the mid 1930s. The destination shown is “Bradford via Otley and Manningham Lane” and the display for the return journey is just visible “Harrogate via Manningham Lane and Otley.” I was always surprised that Menston Village was not mentioned, this being the chief “attraction” of the service compared with the WYRCC direct 53.
Chris Youhill
13/01/17 – 06:42
David Call is right about the why of the SRT but although the frame modifications were extensive, amounting to a complete re-profiling of the side members of the chassis,what was not upgraded was the engine (7.7) gearbox (spring-operated) and brakes (vacuum).
Stephen Allcroft
13/01/17 – 06:42
I agree with David in his view that the RTL and RTW classes were not classified as members of the PD2 breed. Ken Glazier, whose knowledge on London Transport matters I have always found to be impeccable, gives the RTL as type 7RT and the RTW as type 6RT. The SRT was purely a stop gap to present a modern looking fleet in the early ‘fifties when chassis deliveries lagged behind bodywork supplies. In typical LT fashion, the STL type chassis under the RT type body was ‘modernised’ at ridiculous expense, and the whole project foundered when it became apparent that the brakes were decidedly incapable of stopping the bus effectively. By that time, chassis supplies were outpacing body deliveries, which is why LT turned to Cravens and Saro, so the whole SRT programme was a fiasco in every way. As for the 7000 total figure for RT/RTL/RTW classes, OK, but there were never that many in service at the same time.
Roger Cox
13/01/17 – 10:09
……and they had to move the fuel tank to the other side of the vehicles too, Stephen! The other tragedy was that the STL’s selected for conversion to SRT’s were the 1939 15STL16’s, the most modern STL’s in the fleet and pretty-well up to RT standards in many respects, having automatic chassis lubrication, amongst others. And why not, for London Transport had hoped that this batch of STL’s would be RT’s which, in the end, turned out to be wishful thinking.
London Transport 1953 (registration date) AEC Regent III RT – RT8/2 Weymann H30/26R
Two weeks ago my contribution for the ex London Transport STL2117 was posted on this site, the shot was taken in April 1958. At about the same time that shot was taken, spiffing new RTs were coming on stream, and here is a shot of KGU 191 RT2262 and new NLE 826 RT3719 at the old Stevenage railway station route terminus. Would I be right is saying that NLE 826 RT3719 was one of many stored new at Loughton garage for ages, awaiting entry to service as NLE was 03/53 – 11/53, presumably because RT production had exceeded requirement?
Copyright Victor Brumby
Or was OLD 528 RT4742 one of those last entrants to the fleet? (In Green Line rig, unusually……) Seen according to my notes at Hitchin along with AEC Regal IV LUC 225 RF25 which was last in the first batch of 25 Regals delivered at the 27ft 6in length and were classed as Private Hire Coaches for sightseeing tours and the like. In the mid 50s ten of the batch 16-25 were transferred to Green Line. Unfortunately the glazed sightseeing roof panels can not be seen in this shot.
Photographs and Copy contributed by Victor Brumby
27/01/12 – 17:37
According to the vehicle histories on “Ian’s Bus Stop” website, RT 3719 entered service at Windsor (WR) garage in May 1953, and transferred to Hitchin garage in 1957. (//www.countrybus.org/) His histories haven’t got as far as the 47xx sequence, but RT 4742 was (according to Ken Glazier’s “London Buses in the 1950s”) one of those delivered straight to storage in 1954 and entering service between March 1958 and August 1959. Ken Blacker’s definitive work on the RT class lists dates of entry to service, but I do not have a copy to hand. The appearance of (bus livery) RTs on Green Line coach services was not that uncommon – many routes at that time had one or two peak hour duplicates, and most routes required relief buses particularly on summer Sundays – to cater for Londoners visiting the countryside, and (where routes served new towns such as Stevenage) visits between new town residents and their friends and relatives still living in inner London. The provision of a few RTs in semi Green Line livery (green central band, Green Line transfers between decks) at country bus garages to cater for this happened in 1960 (again, according to Ken Glazier’s book.) There is more about Hitchin garage (closed 1959) here – //www.ampyx.org.uk/ – the building is still standing, although I understand there is a current planning application in which will involve demolition.
Jon
29/01/12 – 07:32
According to Ken Blacker’s RT book, RT4742 (OLD 528) was indeed one of those stored for the first few years of its life, finally entering service in March 1958, at SV (Stevenage, Fishers Green).
Bob Gell
27/08/12 – 07:58
Firstly can I say how pleased I was to see the photo of the RT’s at the old Stevenage Station, I can only just remember this Station, I was five when it moved, and new ‘AN’s were coming on stream. The other photograph of the Green Line RT is a real gem, as it is the only photograph I have seen, besides one in Ken Blackers ‘RT’ book of the first Stevenage depot, situated in a cul-de-sac off Fishers Green Road, behind the old Station which was in use as a temporary outstation of Hitchin & Hatfield until the new depot in Danestrete opened in 1959.
Alec Bright
06/11/12 – 06:46
Just a quick note to confirm that the building shown behind the RT is Stevenage Fisher’s Green, and not Hitchin. You will find a 1990s image of the garage with its curiously pitched and slanting roof span on my web page: //www.ampyx.org.uk/ The story unfolding in Hitchin today is complex, and the local historical society are still trying to persuade the planning authorities of the value of the structure. You may have seen coverage in BUSES an B&CP magazines. By coincidence, the National (later UCOC) garage in Fishponds Road was demolished in September of this year. I am shocked at how much revision of my historical pages is necessary. Thank you all for your comments and suggestions.
Browns Blue Bus Service 1950 AEC Regent III RT RT3/3 Saunders H56R originally now Weymann
I was interested to read about Victor’s visit to Leicester in 1958 to see the ex-LT Daimlers in service with Browns Blue. A good friend of mine, Mick Gamble, has just completed writing a comprehensive history of the Browns Blue Company. This is now at print and is due to be released in mid-October. Mick has worked on the project for over two years and has travelled many a mile in interviewing members of the Brown family along with form Browns Blue drivers, conductors and engineering staff. The book will be hard back containing 232 pages, over 200 photos and a complete fleet list. Mick has produced the book to coincide with the 50th anniversary of the take-over of the company by Midland Red in March 1963. Chris Barker noted that Browns Blue also operated nine ex-London Transport RTs and whilst all nine found new owners following withdrawal by Browns Blue, sadly none made it into preservation. So Mick has done the next best thing and has purchased KLB 596 transforming it into a replica of HLW 160 which was the only non-roof box RT that Browns Blue operated. Mick has had authentic adverts produced and a replica 19 metre long destination blind!
Photograph and Copy contributed by Mike Greenwood
21/10/12 – 10:41
Nice!!!
Pete Davies
22/10/12 – 17:04
This vehicle looks magnificent in Brown’s Blue livery, and would look even more so if parked next to the RTW preserved in Stevenson of Spath’s yellow and black colour scheme. Bring them both up to Manchester sometime please, my range is more limited these days! Well done to all involved in this project, independents are severely under-represented in the ranks of preserved vehicles.
Neville Mercer
27/01/13 – 07:59
We had this bus for our wedding transport in July 2006. It was in traditional London Transport red. Our wedding was in Winchester and the bus was hired for the day with a clippie from somewhere in Hampshire.
London Transport 1954 AEC Regent III RT – RT8/2 Weymann (Originally) Park Royal (Now) H56R
Here we have two views of the same vehicle in the two liveries of London Transport. The view of it in red is at Heathrow Bus Station on 21 January 1976, where she is on the 140 to Mill Hill East Station. The view in green shows her – as preserved – on Itchen Bridge in Southampton. It’s 6th May 1979, and she is addressed to Hemel Hempstead Bus Station on the 347 while taking part in the Southampton City Transport Centenary rally. According to BBF 12 London Transport book it was delivered new in the green livery.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
04/11/12 – 15:27
Evidence seems to say 1954, which I am inclined to take as date of entry into service. Are you sure it still has a Weymann body? It carried one when it was new, unquestionably, but it would have had at least one body swap while with LT and recent references quote Park Royal bodywork. Unfortunately the ultimate authority on this subject (Ian’s Bus Stop, on the net) currently has RT histories up to RT4199 only.
David Call
04/11/12 – 17:09
David, The 2012 PSV Circle listing of preserved buses gives her as having Park Royal body, and new date of 7/54. Thank you for clarifying.
Pete Davies
04/11/12 – 17:09
I have corrected the information above, I supplied the information under the photo I just put the original body not having any information to dispute it, I had to start somewhere.
Peter
05/11/12 – 13:07
Strangely enough, the sound of the AEC 9.6 litre with pre-selector gearbox – one of the most common, homely and comforting sounds of the 1950s bus scene, is one that we don’t have on the Old Bus Sounds page. There are one or two on YouTube, but I have yet to find a really good one. They all seem a bit “rasping” and you don’t get the full flavour of the contralto in first and second, and then the rich deep tenor in third. Any offers?
Stephen Ford
05/11/12 – 15:20
I wonder just how much money was wasted by LPTB/LTE continually painting vehicles red, then green, merely because it was wanted in the other half of the business. I never got the impression that there was anyone controlling spare green/red ones as a sensible alternative. I wonder if the vehicle in the top photo was ‘snapped’ because of the sloppy blind display – a side blind in the intermediate box – why? And, Stephen, I recall the different sound of the ‘pre-war’ RT’s engines, until they changed the cylinder heads and they all sounded the same then.
Chris Hebbron
05/11/12 – 15:34
Thank you Pete for posting the photos of this RT. I have happy memories of learning to handle this type on the LT skid pan at Chiswick (even though I was already holding a PSV licence from the Eastern Traffic Authority) and I had to retake my test to satisfy LT. Once posted to New Cross garage, I was put on route 192 Lewisham Odeon to Plumstead, and had to contend with Shooters Hill, often boiling at the top when heavily laden, then a very sharp left turn into Eglinton Rd/Hill, which necessitated difficult low speed gear selection.
Norman Long
05/11/12 – 16:01
In answer to the question from Chris, I ‘snapped’ this one because I was at Heathrow to get some photographs of the entry into service of Concorde. While there, I took photos of some of the activity around the bus station, the others being FAR too modern to appear on this site! Certainly, the arrangement of the blinds could be better, but that isn’t why I took the photo.
Pete Davies
05/11/12 – 16:02
Chris, it’s interesting that you should say that. I didn’t know the pre-war RTs. Being from Nottingham I was rarely in London, but NCT had lots of pre and post war Regents in the early 50s, and most of the pre-war survivors were pre-selector. It has long been my recollection that the sound of these pre-war buses was subtly “the-same-but-different” from the “new” (!) 1948 (Metro-Cammell)/49(Roberts)/53 (Park Royal) Regent IIIs. When we moved to Barton territory in 1954, they had a considerable number of pre-war ex-Leeds Regents, which also had the “old” sound.
Stephen Ford
05/11/12 – 17:16
The pre-war RT engines, Stephen, were greatly influenced by Leyland engines in the STD and TF classes. Although Ricardo had a hand in designing the cylinder heads, the direct-injection engines had pot-cavity piston tops (like flowerpots,)a Leyland design, produced under licence, although this fact was kept under wraps! So the AEC engines were, to some extent, hybrids.
If you’ve experienced ‘boiling up’, Norman, this photo will bring back memories, at the top of Annerley Hill, near Crystal Palace, blinds turned for the return journey. This route passed the end of my road, although the vehicle shown is on a short working, not going through to Raynes Park.
Chris Hebbron
06/11/12 – 13:22
Ah, the 157 route, Chris. This, together with the 154, was the replacement for the 654 trolleybus route which ran between Crystal Palace and Sutton Green, the last day of trolleybus operation being 3 March 1959. I went to school at Selhurst, and our playing fields were on the other side of Croydon at Waddon. We had to use the 654, and later the 154/7 to get there. Anerley Hill was at the other end of these routes, beyond Norwood Junction. Whereas the trolleys ascended Anerley Hill in a steady manner, the replacement RTs always struggled up this gradient. LT derated the engine of the RT to 115 bhp, about the same as a K version Gardner 6LW, but the AEC lacked the low speed torque characteristics of the Gardner. However, the RTL, with its similarly derated engine was decidedly worse on hills than the RT. Your point about the profligacy of the old LTE is very true. It was a huge, complacent, inward looking, arrogant organisation that steadfastly refused to acknowledge that it didn’t already know everything about bus operation and ancillary activities. Other participants in the bus industry – BET, BTC, municipals et al – were loftily referred to as “foreign operators”. Insulated from comparisons with practices elsewhere in the industry, LTE had no yardstick by which it could assess its woeful standard of efficiency. Certainly, trade union power was very strong, but much more could have been done to improve matters.
Roger Cox
06/11/12 – 14:04
Thanks Chris—a great picture…I can almost recall the smell of the steam. Those were the days..the best job I ever had!
Norman Long
07/11/12 – 06:52
Wimbledon Hill was the challenge for the ‘pre-war RT’s, on route 93, from Putney Bridge to Epsom (Dorking on Sundays). When I lived in Morden, Roger, it always seemed strange to me that no bus route went to Crystal Palace. The 157 went to Wallington (some cut short at Carshalton) and it was with some pleasure that I noticed that eventually one route, a least, ventured into South-East London. My abiding memory of pre-war RT’s, in their after-life, was seeing a couple of them with Smith’s of Reading, around 1960, looking impeccable, despite their 20-odd years in service by that time.
Chris Hebbron
07/11/12 – 16:50
Another testing route for the RT was the 234 between Hackbridge and Selsdon. The Hackbridge section as far as Purley was straightforward enough, but from Purley the route climbed up the side of the Caterham Valley, then dropped down again through Riddlesdown before ascending again to Sanderstead Church on its way to Selsdon. Later, from March 1971 to January 1973, this route (together with XA Atlanteans) became the province of the solitary FRM, and, as my mother then lived at Riddlesdown, I frequently rode on this splendid machine when visiting. The FRM proved a highly competent performer, taking the gradients in truly fine style. What might have been……!
Roger Cox
07/11/12 – 17:32
One of the favoured few, eh, Roger? Another tragedy, as you say. along with the TSR2 and the recent Nimrod debacle!
Chris Hebbron
13/11/12 – 06:55
When the red RTs were repainted green and transferred to country area garages (and vice versa), does anyone know if the rear axles were changed at the same time? As far as I am aware, central area RTs had rear axles with a lower diff ratio than the ones operated on country routes. This gave the red RTs a lower top speed, but improved acceleration between stops, whereas the green RTs benefitted from a higher top speed, as befitting their routes, but progress through the gears would have been more stately. If such vehicles were simply repainted, it must have caused some confusion and frustration among drivers as they tried to keep to schedule with the ‘wrong’ type of bus!
Brendan Smith
13/11/12 – 12:59
I am surmising, Brendan, but I assume that the repainting exercise formed part of the Aldenham overhaul system. As you know, buses going in had their bodies and chassis separated and sent down dedicated overhaul tracks. Such was the scale of the disassembly process, the vehicle emerging at the far end with the registration OLD 564 would almost certainly have had a different chassis and body to the one that went in. Thus, the “new” OLD 564 might well have had a chassis that entered Aldenham as a high geared Country Dept vehicle. Alternatively, the appropriate higher geared rear axle would have been fitted during the overhaul process, and the emerging chassis would have acquired a green painted body. I worked for the LTE Country Bus Dept in a clerical capacity at Reigate in the early 1960s when the psv speed limit was raised to 40 mph, and all buses had the back axles converted appropriately. I cannot recall any “maverick” low geared machines being used on Country Area services after the conversion program was completed, and, in an organisation so besotted with standardisation as the old LTE, I doubt that such an eventuality would have arisen. If one did slip through the net, it would have been sorted out pretty quickly. Had it not been so dealt with, a T&GWU Union Complaint would certainly have been despatched hot foot to the relevant management in-tray.
Roger Cox
13/11/12 – 14:33
From what you’re saying, Roger, I’m assuming that the bodies never actually changed colour, they just ended up on a different chassis. I don’t know about the RT’s, but as well as different gearing, the Routemasters ‘or the RMC versions anyway’ also had a much higher interior spec with better upholstery and coach style overhead luggage racks
Ronnie Hoye
14/11/12 – 07:14
That might well be true, Ronnie. It would surely be very much easier and less costly to repaint a body in the same colour as before, but, with London Transport’s penchant for profligacy, one cannot be certain that logic prevailed. The only way to ascertain the facts would be by obtaining a history of the relevant body numbers. Unfortunately, Ian’s Bus Stop website, so often a valuable source of detail, does not have the histories of the later examples of the RT class, but one appreciates the magnitude of such a task.
Roger Cox
14/11/12 – 07:14
Thanks for the info Roger. The RTs are certainly a more fascinating breed than their standardised image would have us believe. I admit to having a real soft spot for them, as being brought up as a child in Airedale, they were in abundance on shopping trips to Bradford with Mum and Dad. Samuel Ledgard had a sizeable fleet of RTs (and some RTLs) in their classic blue and light grey livery, and Bradford CT also had twenty-five, the attractive livery of blue with cream window surrounds suiting them very well. The original livery applied to the RTs by BCT was fortunately short-lived, this consisting of all over blue, relieved by a cream band above the lower deck windows – in effect a blue version of LT livery. What was the transport department thinking of? Presumably the General Manager was on holiday for a fortnight when someone came up with that wheeze! As a youngster, I found the huge rear window on each deck of the RT so handsomely modern, and was captivated by the sound effects. The gently ‘knocking’ tickover of that quietly powerful 9.6 litre engine, the melodic pre-selector transmission, and the ‘chiff’ of the air brakes. Even the air-operated gearchange pedal made a noise. Wonderful!
Brendan Smith
14/11/12 – 10:30
You certainly live and learn when you read this site. As Brendan has pointed out, there’s a lot more to RTs than initially meets the eye. However, the discussion about rear axles leads me to ask which ones were fitted to Ledgard’s RTs. On the face of it, it would seem the country higher axle would have been a more suitable choice. Is this correct?
Roy Burke
14/11/12 – 14:05
I share every aspect of Brendan’s delight in having “known” the wonderful RTs, not only in this area but in their home territory as I had many relations in London and visited often. I must tell here a very sad but unfortunately true anecdote reflecting the total lack of interest and knowledge in the job by a huge proportion of drivers and conductors – mind you, understandable I suppose as most likely very few mill or factory workers spent their leisure hour drooling over a certain loom or lathe !! Now then back to Otley and Samuel Ledgard in 1963, and of course the last of the famous Sutton Depot “HGF” Daimler CWA6s (another fabulous family) had only just gone. I can remember making my way to the depot to start a late turn when, outside Woolworth’s in Kirkgate, I encountered one of our more cynical and constantly grumpy colleagues and was informed “Wait till you get to the garage – some more London garbage (polite word after editing) just arrived.” Well, its a wonder I wasn’t knocked down as I sped to the depot knowing full well what to expect, although there had been no announcements or rumours about such an acquisition. There on the forecourt, gurgling away contentedly, was RT 4611 NXP 864, still advertising all the delights of the West End. It was the first RT to enter service from Otley depot and was fairly promptly prepared in what was to become the standard treatment for the 34 RTs and 5 RTLs we were to enjoy eventually. The roof route number box was very professionally removed and the front destination display repanelled to show only our new standard (by then) rolls, and over the platform the glass was neatly masked to leave only the right area for the same version. the rear destination displays were totally removed, and professionally panelled so that no trace remained. Preparation for painting was to the usual incredibly high standard of which Arthur and Benny were very justifiably proud. Moving on now to a Saturday afternoon, late turn again, and “864” was parked in the garage, taxed all ready for the fray but probably not until Monday morning. My conductor was Eddy Busfield, who had been a University student on Summer part time employment but had “caught the enthusiast bug” and had stayed full time. We couldn’t resist after tea and approached the amenable shift garage man with “Can we PLEASE take the RT out ??” Being himself an Ex Pat Londoner he agreed at once, and so off we went like a couple of delighted infants :- 2010 Otley – Leeds 2055 Leeds – Otley 2150 Otley – Leeds 2235 Leeds – Otley Refuel of course on the “wrong” side but who cared – a bit of awkward manipulation was a small price to pay for a wonderful evening. The proof of the pudding is in the eating, as the saying goes, and as more RTs arrived there were rarely if ever any more derogatory comments from those who “open their mouths before they put their brains in gear.” The RTs were rightly legendary and I also loved the RTLs with their different characteristics – wonderful tick over “wobbling” and Leyland “gargling.”
Chris Youhill
14/11/12 – 14:14
Elsewhere on this site, under an item dealing with the Ledgard RTs, Chris Youhill states that one of these machines LYR 915, is now preserved in its original Country Bus Dept livery. Let us know, Chris – were the others green on arrival at Ledgard’s?
Roger Cox
14/11/12 – 15:32
I can remember six operators in the area who had RT’s. Service coaches and Bedlington District, both based in Ashington, had them for miners services and as a result they tended not to be of the best of condition appearance wise. Moor Dale who used them for contract and school runs, they stayed in LT red, but the mudguards and cream centre band were painted blue, Armstrongs of Westerhope ‘who were taken over by T&W PTE and became Armstrong Galley’ they were a pale green colour, Lockeys of West Auckland. they were black and white, but best of all were OK of Bishop Auckland, the RT’s looked wonderful in their livery.
Ronnie Hoye
14/11/12 – 16:30
In another of his evocative posts, above Chris Y briefly mentions the ‘HGF’ Daimler CWA’s at Sutton Garage. I’ve mentioned LTE’s profligate ways before, but when time came for the ‘D’s to go, Merton’s were replace by RT’s, but Sutton’s were replaced by RTL’s. This, of course, required driver and fitter re-training and new workshop material. tooling, manuals etc. Just five months later, the RTL’s were replaced by RT’s! Unbelievable! My experience of the removal of the roof routebox on the generic RT class, was that it was usually done very badly, with pop rivets to the fore etc. SL did do a professional job, as Chris Y says.
Chris Hebbron
15/11/12 – 11:21
Roger, I’m not sure if any records were kept by enthusiasts as to what colour each RT was on arrival here, but certainly there was a mixture with plenty of both red and green. RT 4611, NXP 864, was definitely red as I saw in my delighted, nay rapturous, initial sighting mentioned above. Chris H, I’m astonished, well not really I suppose, to read your fascinating account of the Sutton RTL/RT farce. Although I was always a very great admirer of London Transport it has to be said that they were far too rigid in practices and habits in many ways.
Photograph by “unknown”if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
This picture shows an immaculate newly prepared LYR 867 leaving the roof top park of Armley depot in a manner which could have seen the driver at the Labour Exchange (Job Centre to our younger friends) as a notice on the inner wall warned “ANY DRIVER LEAVING THE ROOF IN ONE SWEEP WILL BE DEALT WITH.” Unusually the rear wheels are visible and painted blue – the normal practice was for the wheel discs to be fitted. The high standard of painting and preparation can be seen, as can the almost imperceptible removal of the roof route number box.
Chris Youhill
15/11/12 – 17:01
I presume, Ronnie, that when you refer to ‘RTs’ you mean any of the RT ‘family’, i.e. RT/RTL/RTW. I’m pretty sure that OK didn’t have any RTs as such, they acquired eight RTLs (I think) when the first batch were released c1958, inherited a further two with the business of Anderson (Blue Belle) of Evenwood, and bought a single RTW in the mid-1960s. Lockey’s (one of my favourite operators) had one RT and two RTLs.
David Call
15/11/12 – 17:45
Stephenson’s of High Etherley certainly had an RTW and possibly an RTL.
John Stringer
16/11/12 – 07:28
That really is a superb photo, Chris Y and does the RT proud. SL’s livery well-suited these vehicles. I like the thought of the driver cocking a snoot at authority and to heck with the consequences! Maybe the RT’s had a better steering lock than other vehicles. Is that true?
Chris Hebbron
16/11/12 – 07:29
Stephenson’s had at least two RTLs, these were replaced by two RTWs in the mid-1960s, these then remained with Stephenson’s until its shares in a couple of stage services were sold to OK (c1970?) – the RTWs were not included in the deal, these were sold by Stephenson’s. I can’t remember what happened to the single-deck service bus – an AEC Reliance, I think.
David Call
16/11/12 – 11:14
One of Stephenson’s RTWs has been preserved in Stephenson’s livery and condition. During 2006 it spent some time at Ensigns – I think they might have been doing some work on it for the owner – and having a Class VI ticket was used on that year’s heritage services in Essex, seen here in Old Harlow on route 622.
Michael Wadman
16/11/12 – 14:42
Yes, David, RT type rather than RT. As a youngster I seldom ventured South of the Tyne, so the only time I actually saw any of OK’s buses was when they were used on the Bishop Auckland/Newcastle service, or, as often happened during the summer, they descended on mass to the coast at Whitley Bay carrying hoards of Children on working mens club outings, but that’s no excuse for poor research on my part. In my defence, I can remember that some of the Bedlington District RT’s were MXX registrations and had roof box indicators, and the Moor Dale pair had Leyland radiators and were KGU 60 and LUC 355 – presumably RTL’s, sorry but I don’t know how many or what type were used by Armstrong’s of Westerhope, but they did have at least one of the breed.
Ronnie Hoye
17/11/12 – 07:01
I think a bit of confusion has crept in here. The Stephenson Brothers which John Stringer refers to was the operator in the Bishop Auckland area who sold their services to OK in 1970. They had a couple of RTL’s and an RTW and used a blue livery. The yellow and black RTW was owned by STEVENSONS of Uttoxeter, Staffs. They ultimately sold out to Arriva and curiously, many Arriva Midlands vehicles still carry legal lettering which states; Stevensons of Uttoxeter t/a Arriva!
Chris Barker
17/11/12 – 07:02
Stevenson’s (with the yellow livery) were based at Spath, just outside Uttoxeter – a very old-established operator running services mainly in the Uttoxeter/Burton area. They eventually sold out to Arriva (or, perhaps, one of its predecessors, I’m not sure now), c1992. One notable event in its history was the takeover (in the run-up to bus deregulation) of the services of East Staffordshire District Council (previously Burton-on-Trent Corporation). Like Stephenson’s, they ran both RTLs and RTWs (more of the former, I think). There is a page on Stevenson’s on this very website.
David Call
18/11/12 – 12:16
In reply to Chris H’s question about steering lock on the RTs I’m afraid I’ve really no idea. I suppose it is indeed possible but on balance I wouldn’t have thought too likely – so probably another thing we shall never know. Likewise, I never got to the bottom of the thinking behind that sinister notice inside the Armley Depot rooftop wall. I never worked from there, other than one morning taking my PSV test from within the main premises, as I was always at Otley garage and its nearby Ilkley “sub depot.” I can only imagine that if a bus was parked in the front corner near the gateway an exit in “one sweep” would put the vehicle right up to the far pavement in the residential street outside, as in this picture. The Depot has long since disappeared under a major new road most reverently named “LEDGARD WAY” but the houses still remain, sadly in a most reprehensible state due to resident neglect, but that’s a social matter not for further comment here.
Chris Youhill
24/11/12 – 14:21
Oh, dear, sorry about that: getting my Stephenson’s and Stevenson’s mixed up. I really ought to know better than to venture into that strange land north of Watford of which I know little!!
Michael Wadman
02/12/12 – 14:10
Here is Stephenson’s of High Etherley, Co. Durham KLB 948. New to London Transport as their RTW 218 in 1/50 and withdrawn by them in 4/65, it passed to Stephenson’s via the dealer Bird’s of Stratford upon Avon. I photographed it on a tour of Co. Durham independents in late Summer, 1969. Note the mis-spelled advert !
John Stringer
03/12/12 – 14:04
It’s amazing how obvious that extra six inches on RTW’s was, compared with 7′ 6″ wide RTL’s. Internally, it gave an extra 4″ in the aisle and they put a 1″ spacer between seat end and bus side for extra shoulder room. You seem, John, to be cursed in the same way as me, the ability to spot a spelling error, instantly, at 100yds (almost literally in this case!).
Chris Hebbron
01/04/13 – 12:51
Just as a matter of interest; the reason the top pic on route 140 has an old blind at the front is because by 1976 the writing was on the wall for RTs and LT stopped making specific blinds for them. So garages started using any thing RT to hand then RM blinds if available. If you look at pics from the seventies you see them starting to creep in. Standards were starting to drop by then.
Danny Robins
01/04/13 – 16:28
The 140 blind is not necessarily an old one. It is actually one from the rear blind box/the nearside rear above the platform. These had the numeral above the via points and were able to fit in the front via blind box of RTs. As you say, such scenes would never have been countenanced during the heyday of RTs, when almost everything was correct. But towards the end, a wrongly sized blind showing the right information, was better than, No blind at all.
Petras409
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
07/01/15 – 09:40
The caption/text to this bus gives 1954 as entry into service. According Ken Blacker’s book RT – Story Of A London Bus, this vehicle did not enter service until June 1959, when it was delivered in green livery to Epping (EP) bus garage, some 5 years later.
Paddy John
08/01/15 – 15:24
A significant number of later RTs delivered in 1954 were not needed for service immediately, and were put into store. This was in spite of LT selling off many non-standard types and utilities in this period, such as the 65 post-war STDs to Yugoslavia, amongst others. Presumably increased traffic needs or other withdrawals of older stock (pre-war RTs to the training school?) allowed their preparation for licensing and service. There are probably lists somewhere of the RT’s which were stored for this five-year period.
London Transport 1948 AEC Regent III RT Weymann H56R
Here is a view of JXN 46, RT1081 1018 (see below) in full London Country NBC livery. She’s on parade in the Weymouth rally on 1 July 1979. She dates from 1948 and has a Weymann H56R body. At the time of the photograph, she was still in service – mainly on training duties – but is now preserved.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
17/02/14 – 07:57
I have been privileged to drive for a number of years for Peter Cartwright and Amersham & District on their running days. The Watford – Hemel section of the 302 has featured regularly for the annual August Hemel Running Day. March 30 sees the first Watford event. I’m hoping to be driving in the afternoon. Say hello if you’re there.
David Oldfield
23/02/14 – 15:24
Think you’ll find that JXN 46 is RT1018 not 1081. Used to drive it when I worked out of Tring in the early ’70s. It used to belong to Mike Lloyd of Wigan. Not sure if he’s still got it.
Keith Williams
24/02/14 – 07:46
It is indeed RT 1018, not 1081. I bought it in September 1981, and yes, I do indeed still have it. That photo was taken at Weymouth Bus Rally 1st July 1979. This was the bus’s first-ever rally and it was still owned by LCBS at the time. We rallied it from Hemel Hempstead Garage for a couple of years, then when it was withdrawn, I bought it. Of course, I didn’t live in Wigan in those days. It is currently having a bit of re-restoration, which it is entitled to after 32 years in preservation.
Mike Lloyd
25/02/14 – 06:54
Hi Mike. Pleased to know you’ve still got 1018. Can you tell me if you’re going to rally her again after her re-restoration. If so ,where? Love to see her again after all these years. Seems we’ve all moved north as I’m in Crewe now.
Keith Williams
26/02/14 – 12:08
Appologizz for the triping eeroar! I must check more carefully in future.
Pete Davies
15/09/14 – 06:57
I was just doing a bit of research on this bus, my late father Barry Neave was pictured with it sometime back in the 80’s I believe. Was just really interested in where it was and what it was doing, is it still being restored?
Celina Neave
18/09/14 – 07:50
I don’t visit this page often, so sorry for delayed reply to Keith. When she is back on the road I shall certainly take her to rallies now and then; however, restoration is proving long-drawn-out because of time constraints so I can’t say when it will be. The bus is kept at the North West Museum of Road Transport at St Helens these days but is not on display, obviously, because it’s in the workshops.
Celina – very sorry to hear that Barry is now “the late.” He was a part-time driving instructor at Hemel Hempstead and RT 1018 was “his” bus for that purpose. He was a great help, visiting other bus garages and scrounging spare parts for the bus, some of which I still have. I have loads of pics of the bus working as a trainer, but not sure if Barry is in any of them because normally he would be sitting in the saloon giving advice and instruction to the driver, so you couldn’t see him in photos. I may possibly have one of him at a rally somewhere, although he didn’t always accompany us. See above for where the bus is now, and yes, it is still under restoration – mainly things I had not restored previously, of course. Rest assured, she’s in good hands. I wouldn’t part with her for anything, having known her since 1959.
Mike Lloyd
22/09/14 – 07:12
Thank you so much for the reply Mike it meant a lot to hear some more information about dad and the busses, it was his life. If you did have any pictures of dad with the bus they would be more than gratefully received, my mum Gloria had the picture we have as I think she accompanied dad on the rally? I’d love to come and see the bus, or maybe when it’s on rally again. Thank you so much again.
Celina
04/11/14 – 17:21
Looking at this posting of RT 1018 sent me scurrying to an old photo album where I found this photo taken in the yard beside Victoria Garage [GM] round about 1950/51 when this RT had worked a relief Green Line in from St.Albans. I cannot swear to it being 1018, it could be 1013 as the writing on the back has faded plus I am standing in front of the number plate but thought it might be of interest.
Graham Crockett
26/11/14 – 06:18
This is the picture I have of dad with the bus.
Celina
16/01/15 – 09:03
Here is a photo I took of RT1018 possibly at a Cobham rally in the 90’s.
G Crockett
19/01/15 – 12:11
Re the photo taken of the RT at Victoria (GM) Garage Yard around 1950/51. 04/11/14 at 17:21 posted above by Graham Crockett. It would be RT 1013 as the batch RT 1005-RT 1014 were allocated from new to St Albans (SA) RT 1005-RT 1011 had roof route boxes whereas RT 1012-RT 1014 had the route number box in the lower down position. I was living in Albans at that time.
M Horan
21/01/15 – 15:17
Picture taken of RT 1018 in 1980 at possibly Southend Rally.
G Crockett
29/03/15 – 18:01
Celine Neave Your dad was a well respected by all. When I first started at Two Waters he was helpful to me and I have never forgotten that.
David Jenkins
07/06/15 – 06:27
I also remember 1018 from it`s days at Tring in the 70`s. I was there until it closed in `77, then went to Amersham. I may be wrong, but I seem to remember we had an RT that had an RF type steering wheel, and I think it was 1018. I also remember David Jenkins, especially when he was made up to inspector.
Brian Keating
08/07/15 – 05:39
If there was an RT with an RF steering wheel it certainly wasn’t 1018. 1018 returned to Hemel as a training bus and had an RT wheel, which of course she still does. I do not think you could actually fit an RF steering wheel to an RT as the columns are different. I remember David Jenkins, too. Sorry to say I have not so far found any pics of Barry Neave with the bus, although it was his regular vehicle. I’ll keep looking.
Mike Lloyd
06/02/17 – 10:27
Was it not one of the 34 that were sold onto LT and ended up in Norbiton Garage for the 65 till RT’s ended on 16th Oct 1975? Maybe I am confused with the passage of time.
George Chmielewski
16/03/17 – 06:24
No, it most certainly did not pass to LT. It was the first LCBS RT to be overhauled and painted into NBC green, at which time it worked from Chelsham. There were four others, two training buses (subsequently scrapped) and RTs 604 and 3461, also now preserved. 1018 was also the only one to receive a repaint into NBC green, but now it is back in its proper livery – Lincoln green.
Mike Lloyd
27/03/18 – 06:50
Happy memories of RT 1018 at rallies in the 80’s Woburn showbus etc. I hope all of the Lloyds and 1018 keeping well? Might have to pay a visit if at St Helens as mentioned in previous comments.
Mark Richardson
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
06/12/18 – 12:22
Hello Mark, didn’t see your comment until just now as I don’t visit this page very often. Yes thanks, we are all well, although the RT is in need of skilled surgery to her nearside lower deck after 37 years in preservation. I am getting on with this as time permits and she is getting better slowly. She is still in the museum at St Helens, but not on display as she is in the workshop which is not open to the public for reasons of safety. If you do come, check first that we are open (we close after Christmas until February for cleaning, maintenance and the like. If you visit on a Sunday I shall be there and I can take you up to see the workshop and the bus. It’s a long time since she was at Woburn or anywhere else for that matter, having been stored now for many years.
Rochdale Corporation 1949 AEC Regent III Weymann H33/26R
Memories of the No. 17 from Manchester Cannon Street to Rochdale in the 50’s
Mullion
Not strictly true, not the original colour scheme of the time. Good photo though!
Ian Buckley
One of the early Rochdale Regent IIIs turned over at the junction of Broadway and Middleton Road, Chadderton on May 1st 1951 after colliding with an Oldham PD1. The Rochdale bus was returning from Manchester with a full load – 55 people were injured. For years I have been trying to identify just which two buses were involved. If you know please leave a comment. The Rochdale Observer cutting has a picture of the bus lying on its side, photo credited to D Worrall.
Peter Greaves
I’ve seen a very good quality photo of this incident in the GMTS archives. That could be your next port if you’re hoping to further enquiries on this? The Rochdale bus was actually lying on its nearside on Broadway just past Hunt Lane but well before Middleton Rd, and facing towards Royton. There’s no evidence in the photo that any other vehicle was involved. It is possible that another vehicle could have come out of Hunt Lane from the right and collided with the Rochdale bus causing it to overturn, but Hunt Lane was not on an Oldham bus route. On the left at this time you may recollect there was a large coal yard served by a railway branch off the Werneth to Middleton Junction line, and this too is visible in this photo. I was talking very recently to a gent who says he knew a woman who had been travelling on the bus, and for a long time afterwards she still had her head bandaged. He seems to think the incident happened about 1957, but I’d certainly go with the date you have if it’s confirmed especially by a newspaper. This was a very serious accident and this gent thought there had been some fatalities? From the photo it actually appears that the bus was one of the 8 footer Weymanns, and a friend and I always concluded that this was probably 222 as it was the only one of the batch we had never been able to spot! Peter Gould’s Rochdale fleet list has 222 as the first of the batch to be withdrawn in 1963, but it may well have sat in the works being cannibalised for many years following the accident? On the other hand it may have been a completely different bus, and it may have been rebuilt and returned to service, but in the photo I’ve seen it looks too badly damaged. This shot has been taken from above and behind the bus and the roof appears to have become detached from the body at the rear. I was never able to gain access to the inner sanctum at Mellor St, but I feel sure there must be others out there able to throw more light on this incident,
Keith Jackson
Could you please tell me what colour the bus was that ran from Rochdale to Bacup in about 1969. Thanking you
Fiona
Rochdale Corporation buses sported a very attractive Oxford Blue and cream livery applied in a streamlined style with the blue side panels on both decks ‘swooping’ down to give an all cream front. When the ‘new look’ fronted Daimler CVG6’s and AEC Regent V’s arrived in 1953 and 1956 respectively, the tin fronts were painted blue. All were bodied by Weymann. The body style was to the traditional design which pre-dated the Orion and the curvaceous lines of this body blended superbly with the Rochdale streamlined livery. In my view the Regent V’s were some of the most attractive British buses ever built. In around 1961 Regent V 277(NDK 977) was painted in the style of livery shown above as an experiment to allow spray painting to be used to save costs. It was said the livery needed to be simplified to allow this method of painting to be adopted. The ‘Rochdale Corporation’ fleet name straddling the crest was introduced on this bus. Later in the year AEC Regal IV saloon no 12 and Daimler CVG6 238 (I think) both appeared in this style, initially with a lighter blue band. This was very quickly modified to the Oxford Blue darker standard colour. At first these vehicles seemed well received as it was something different but it was a sad day in my view when it was announced that this livery was to adopted as standard. It took to sometime for the whole fleet to be repainted and I recall that a few of the Regent III’s were the last vehicles in the old livery. After being a very smart fleet, Rochdale’s buses seemed to take on a care worn appearance towards the end of their independent life before being swallowed into SELNEC. The cream livery soon showed dirt on the lower panels in the industrial environment of a Lancashire mill town and one must question the wisdom of adopting such an inappropriate livery.
To answer Fiona by 1969 the Rochdale fleet had been absorbed into SELNEC and the buses operating on the 16 route to Bacup would have been in SELNEC orange and off-white but again it took some time for all vehicles to be repainted and there would have been cream and blue examples in the former Rochdale livery still about at this time.
Philip Halstead
I love the art-deco style of writing on the side of these vehicles.
Chris Hebbron
The accident Rochdale bus 222 was involved in was in the early 1960s and Peter Gould’s withdrawal date of 1963 would stack up. After the accident the bus was parked under a tarpaulin on the parking ground which RCT was temporarily using during the construction of the Mellor Street depot extension. (This site was opposite Hansons Spring Works located on the eastern side of Mellor Street and bordered by the River Spodden – on the southern side of the river where it passed under Mellor Street). I seem to recall that 222 was working service 3 along Milnrow Road somewhere between Kingsway and Witley Road.
David Slater
So 222 was involved in a completely different incident, wonder if this was also an overturning? That on Broadway Chadderton was just before Middleton Rd, and on route 90. The photo I saw in the GMTS archives would suggest it was nearer to 1951 given the onlookers in the photo and how they were dressed. The bus was definitely one of the postwar AEC Regent III/Weymann’s but the reason I can’t positively identify the bus here is because there isn’t that degree of definition in the photo. As I said in the earlier posting, the bus looks badly damaged, with the roof detached from the body at the rear, but in 1951 it would still have quite new, so perhaps economic to repair? Interestingly only 222 of all the Regent IIIs was withdrawn prematurely, so the indication is that this bus was returned to service. It was a matter of local folklore for many years that a 90 bus had overturned on Broadway, but nobody knew which fleet it was from, Oldham, Manchester or Rochdale, or the precise location of the accident, which only became known to me when I saw the archive photo. It might be worth another look but you have to be a member of the GMTS to gain access to their archives. I no longer am, but I know a man who is. It would be interesting to be able to get to the bottom of this incident.
Keith Jackson
Another possible clue as to the identity of the overturning Regent III. As they aged some of the batch were rebuilt with rubber mounted windows mostly at the front upper deck as per the above photo. However pics on Jasper’s link below show refurb work carried out to bus 210. This and following shot show the major work involved, as if it had been carried out by Weymann to contemporary styling being used on the Aurora body: //jasperstransportphotographs.fotopic.net/p54432950.html
Are we getting nearer I wonder?
Keith Jackson
The refurbishments look superb – and a sight better than North Western did with 253 (a contemporary PD2 in nearby Oldham) when they refurbished it.
David Oldfield
02/03/11
I believe that the vehicle involved in the Chadderton incident was 7ft 6in Regent III No 39. Subsequently it appears to have been rebodied by Weymann before being returned to service. Its interior polished wooden cappings around the windows were then of the later, rounded, style as used on the 1949-51 Weymann bodies rather than the flat style of the rest of the 31- 48 series.
Ian Holt
Hi Ian, Many thanks for the above info. I have no reason to doubt what you’re saying re 39, but is there any absolute evidence to confirm it was this bus? I jumped to the conclusion of it perhaps being 210 because of the extensive rebuilding that bus’ body received, and certainly from the only photo I’ve ever seen of the accident, the body does look very badly damaged, so much so that rebodying would be a distinct possibility. I’ve been unable to ascertain the identity of the overturner try as I might. Perhaps the more comprehensive PSV Circle or Omnibus Society lists (unfortunately not in my possession) have this information? I’ve not been able to read the Venture book on Rochdale, but maybe the info is in there? Also as Peter who initiated the topic has said, is there any evidence supporting the allegation that an Oldham PD1 was also involved in this accident?
Keith Jackson
18/04/11 – 05:00
Regarding 222, it was in a head on accident with an artic on the undulating stretch of the A58 between the road to Wardle and the road down to Smithy Bridge station and Hollingworth Lake. I believe the bus driver was killed outright and there were no passengers on it. I have some negatives on 6×9 B&W of 222 after towing to Mellor Street and before it was stripped for spares and parked on the spare land for at least a year – have a couple of negs there as well. I’m sure the accident was sometime in 1963 and could probably be found in the Rochdale Observer archives. A rear view of nearside shows the body substantially bent, and as not much older buses were being withdrawn then it was obviously not worth repairing.
I notice that the date of the photograph of 39 is shewn as 1st January 1951.
Chris Hebbron
24/04/11 – 15:54
Note many of the photograph dates are inaccurate – that one is quite close by comparison! It’s also the convention I used on my erstwhile Fotopic gallery when all I knew was that the photo was taken in 1951.
David Beilby
04/06/11 – 06:40
David, Thanks so much for the link to the photo. New Years Day 1951 not only sounds ominous but also perhaps slightly implausible as a Public Holiday? Given that the 90 was only ever in any case a peak hour service. Might suggest an element of driver culpability though…. ? Certainly looks a very nasty accident, and the photo in the GM Museum from the rear perspective looks even more devastating. I understand that there were fatalities.
Keith Jackson
05/06/11 – 14:14
The sequence of 5 photos here from the Oldham Chronicle website: A very strange accident this for a number of reasons. To have ended up on its nearside in the position the bus lies could suggest it went into a skid to the offside, and reasoning might suggest it would have tipped to the offside and turned over instead onto that side? What is evident from a couple of the photos is that bus overturned a distance before it came to rest given the marks along the carriageway? Also its positioning before the junction indicates there was no jumping of the lights, although heavy braking in less than ideal road conditions could have been contributory? In one of the photos there is just visible the rear corner of an Oldham Roe bodied bus…. Perhaps this was after all involved, and been moved away to help aid recovery of the Rochdale bus? In the case of Oldham PD3 108 overturning onto its nearside, that was much easier to explain, as it was hit at the front nearside by a tanker lorry, which then caused it to spin tipping to the nearside. The saga of Rochdale 39 still has much to it which is unknown.
Keith Jackson
07/06/11 – 09:26
A grim but fascinating set of pictures which leave as many questions as they solve. Going by the way in which the roof of the bus has been torn off “upwards” and the front section show heavy wrinkling to confirm that, the direction the vehicle took before coming to rest must have been sliding on it’s nearside and indeed the nsf mudguard is distorted to confirm. Then looking at the pattern of the fluids draining from it, it would seem the bus was travelling downhill prior to the accident. Now looking at the first picture, the just visible second bus is facing away so had it just turned right and No.39 came to grief behind it? Purely as a theory, could 39 becoming downhill maybe quite fast, saw the bus in front stopped waiting to turn right, panic braked, skidded, tried to correct but instead toppled onto the nearside and slide downhill to rest but turned through say 300 degrees as it did so? The injuries must have been dreadful and no doubt there are people alive with family memories. Maybe a letter to the local newspaper may bring some accurate clues or information.
Richard Leaman
Hi Richard, Some interesting observations. Your thoughts are the most logical. There is a possible red herring, in that the overturned bus shows Rochdale on the blinds, implying it was heading from Manchester and overturned in its direction of travel just before the junction. Yet the positioning of the overturned bus, the Oldham bus, evident liquid spillage in the junction beyond (from Photo 1 – despite the copyright text), and as you say, apparent evidence of the roadway marks from the tyres and front wing of the overturning bus suggest otherwise. The assumption it was travelling from Manchester would be an easy one to make, even if this came from contemporary reporting. However having looked at the accident from numerous aspects, my reasoning goes: I now think that the bus was travelling from the opposite direction as you say, towards Manchester in fact. The 90 route was a non-stopper between Royton and Manchester, and as there would be no more boarders, the crew may have already set the blinds for the return trip. This was not unknown in the days I remember the 90. I initially thought it unlikely the Regent had been broadsided by the Oldham bus crossing the junction either straight across Middleton Rd or turning right into it from Broadway, because it appears to have come to rest before the junction, and I assumed the evident carriageway scuffing implied it had overturned prior to it. Whereas apparent evidence now seems to have it heading the other way, and in fact overturning beyond the junction. Its otherwise nigh on impossible to explain. I have some alternative theories but they are weak ones. For the Regent to land on its nearside is also hard to explain other than by it being broadsided from the offside. If it was after all heading towards Rochdale, to land how it has done suggests it would have skidded to the offside and this would have induced offside tilting instead. The nature of the roof damage sustained would also be hard to explain, given drag rather than compression? This also seems to indicate a high speed overturning. There is a further photo in the GM Museum archives which looks to have been taken from the bedroom window of the house overlooking from the rear of the bus. There is a big offside dent on the Regent on the lower panels just behind the drivers cab. This is pretty compelling evidence it was broadsided. Other important considerations. Accident was said to have happened on 1st of May 1951, newspaper evidence seems to support this. This was a Tuesday. Route 90 operated in the morning and evening peaks only on Mondays to Fridays. It is said there were 55 injured on the bus, so a full bus. By far the predominant flow of passenger traffic was from Rochdale towards Manchester in the morning peak,reversed in the evening peak. My dad was a regular user of the route. I don’t know if there is any conclusions to be drawn from the school children present amongst the onlookers? I’m still intrigued to find out more about this accident, though fear I may be at the point of starting to bore readers with the ongoing saga! I’d welcome anyone with an interest to contact me ask Peter for my email address Next stop Oldham Chronicle and Rochdale Observer news archives.
Keith Jackson
10/06/11 – 09:47
Keith, far from being bored, I always relish a mystery like this, and I suspect other readers do too. Those who don’t can always ignore it! Please don’t deprive us of further reasoning by making it a private affair – Hercule Poirot would be proud of you!
Stephen Ford
02/07/11 – 07:07
I’m sure it has already been tried, but has anyone contacted the Police? Chadderton at the time was under the Lancashire Constabulary and not GMP as now. There must be information stored somewhere on this accident?
TonyC
02/07/11 – 11:55
Hi Tony, You’re absolutely right, that was to be my next port of call, having drawn a total blank so far with the Oldham Chronicle. Even were it is possible to produce an archived news article that could be erroneous for some of the circumstances outlined above. I’ll try both Lancs and GMP, but am wondering whether Chadderton actually came under Oldham’s rather than Lancashire’s Constabulary at the time? One observation Richard makes is that where 39 is lying, it looks as if fluids could be draining from it, but the slight downhill slope here and the one prevailing at the junction, is into the far distance of the photo. Still suggesting that it was heading towards Manchester and that on overturning its spun through over 90 degrees to suggest it might have been travelling in the opposite direction. A broadside from a right turning bus on the junction seems ever more the likely outcome?
Keith Jackson
02/07/11 – 16:21
I’d’ve thought the best place for information on the accident would be the County Records Office (sometimes known as County Archives).
Chris Hebbron
03/07/11 – 05:52
It was definitely Lancashire Constabulary. Oldham was an independent Borough Force at the time. It (Oldham) only went into Lancashire Constabulary in April 1969, along with many of the old Borough Forces in the County. They then became part of Greater Manchester Police in 1974 (I think that was the date) I know this for fact. I was in the old Rochdale Borough Force at amalgamation in 1969!
TonyC
11/07/11 – 13:56
Good Lord Tony! My brother was also a serving officer at Rochdale, but by then under GMP.
Keith Jackson
12/07/11 – 14:00
I never served with GMP. I left in July 1969 and transferred to Sussex Police. The only ‘JACKSON’ I knew was a Pete Jackson who lived Smallbridge way but that was in the ‘dying days’ of the old Rochdale Borough Force. Whilst I am typing this, does anyone have any old photos of the Rochdale buses in the old (mainly blue) livery? How I wish that camera capabilities today were available then!!
TonyC
30/07/11 – 07:54
Hi Tony, brother was Tony Jackson, served at Collyhurst, Rochdale and finally Milnrow. All under GMP. Anyhow further info just come to light concerning 39 and the overturning incident. Seems I’ve been making various assumptions that have turned out to be incorrect, e.g. placing the bus on the wrong side of the junction for a start. More to follow shortly, with a link to another photo of the incident which has helped to explain quite a few things.
Keith Jackson
Re Rochdale 39 and its overturning. Thanks are due in no small way to both John Holmes and Fr Norman Price in helping to unravel the details of this accident. Fr Norman’s website “Delta 64″ links to a further photo here:
Keith Jackson
21/08/11 – 16:28
Unfortunately, I’ve trawled the site and can’t find any connected pictures?? Any ‘clues’?
TonyC
22/08/11 – 11:32
Here it is Tony. In case (as I just did) you get directed to the homepage, the pic is on page 49. Once there you need to scroll down the page. //www.fireflash-delta64.co.uk/cca49.html
Keith Jackson
23/08/11 – 09:43
Thanks Keith. Excellent picture too!
TonyC
23/08/11 – 09:45
Keith Thank you for linking the picture which is interesting. I really have never been to the area so have no clear idea of the road layout or directions but, this later picture does show an impact on the offside although I would have thought not so heavy as to be enough to cause the severity of the resulting accident. So, maybe the driver of 39 did indeed make a big swerve or avoiding action and the fully laden bus just fell under the influence of the overall weight/balance. However…all of the crowd “interest” is on 39 yet, in none of the pictures is there any sign of the other bus. Surely if it had broadsided 39, the front/cab would be badly damaged and hardly likely to have continued around the corner and parked up neatly. Why is it not visible in the latest picture when logically it would be somewhere in the middle of the road and heavily damaged as well? So now we need a drawing of the junction, the directions, an idea of gradient and some detail or picture of the second vehicle. That might well be a problem though!
Richard Leaman
23/08/11 – 14:16
I agree, Richard. Having now looked more closely at the picture, there is little or no damage to the offside apart from the ‘popping out of windows’ which is to be expected. If the driver swerved violently to his right, wouldn’t that cause momentum to make the bus unstable and fall to its left? If that is the case, then one would think the vehicle or whatever causing the vehicle to swerve violently right came from the left of 39. As the No 90 Route didn’t deviate from Broadway (into Chadderton) then this ‘offending’ vehicle came from the direction of Chadderton causing the driver of 39 to swerve to the right with subsequent overturn to the left. I think it is fair to accept that 39 was ‘Manchester’ bound? Any comments?
TonyC
24/08/11 – 08:11
Having looked at all the picture links, I wonder if the sequence of events was something like this : Oldham Corp heading SW along Broadway waiting to turn right into Middleton Road. RC 39 following down Broadway heading to Manchester. Then either Oldham starts to turn, but brakes suddenly for bike or similar cutting across his bows. RC 39 closing rapidly has no option but to head into the insufficient gap on nearside (with nearside wheels well into the gutter), whereupon offside just ahead of rear wheel connects with rear nearside corner of Oldham. Alternatively, RC 39 may have been passing tight on nearside of Oldham Corp, assuming it would remain stationary. Instead it turned sharply at the crucial moment, causing the pivot of the nearside rear overhang to close the gap (3 or 4 inches?) as it did so. This would explain the damage just ahead of the rear offside wheel, and also why the slightly visible Oldham vehicle is parked with its rear towards the incident, rather than the front as one expect if it had driven broadside into RC 39.
Stephen Ford
24/08/11 – 08:13
TonyC. I’ve had a look at Google Earth Street View to see what the junction looks like now. As anyone local will know, completely different! Now a big multi lane junction, it does confirm that the site is near enough flat so whilst the old pictures appear to show sloping ground, it must have been only slight. My theory then is this..39 is crossing the junction and is hit fairly gently on the offside by another vehicle coming from the right. Driver 39 reacts by swerving right causing the bus to sway left and topple on to it’s near side. The damage in the pictures gives a misleading impression. The roof must have been pulled back to get the passengers out as all are cleared from the scene before the pictures were taken. These days, Police and Rescue forces would have cleared the onlookers away long ago but in 1951 things were different so the crowd is just concerned/excited onlookers. What that does NOT explain though is as above, where is the other bus??? I doubt we shall ever know.
Richard Leaman
24/08/11 – 08:23
Apologies gents, but I thought I’d already posted the following info, along with the proper link to the photo, but it seems that might have become corrupted? Anyhow further info for which I thank John Holmes: Rochdale 39 was working the 5.55pm 90 service ex Manchester (Stevenson Sq) on Tuesday 1st May 1951. It is fairly certain that it jumped the lights at the Middleton Road/Broadway junction and was struck by Oldham PD1/Roe no. 230 crossing en route to Mills Hill on the 3 route. There was only 1 injury reported on the Oldham bus which could have been the driver. This appears to have been a high speed collision the impact from which I reckon would easily have been sufficient to turn 39 over. Imagine the forces involved in two 7 ton buses both travelling at say 25mph where one (Oldham 230) impacts on the rear offside of the other (39), surely causing it to spin and overturn? To recap, link below to the sequence of photos from the Oldham Chronicle website, the first of which shows the rear of an Oldham Roe bodied bus: at this link The driver of Rochdale 39 was William Chadwick of Albert St, Whitworth, and the Conductor was James Halstead (aged 22), of Market St, Shawforth. 1st May 1951 was also Mr J.C.Franklin’s first day as the new General Manager at Rochdale, having succeeded C.T.Humpidge. John adds that Oldham 230 was working the 6.06pm journey from Oldham Market Place to Mills Hill. The driver was believed to be Billy Fish. The bus in front was working a special from Platts works on Featherstall Rd (dep.6.06pm), also on the 3 service to Mills Hill, and this had just cleared the lights at Broadway/Middleton Road, and stopped at the Chadderton Cemetery gates, when the accident happened. The driver of this bus, Tommy Trigg (later Inspector) saw the accident in his mirror and ran back to help. What he found at the scene must have been pretty traumatic, with 55 passengers trapped inside 39, lying on its side. As I may have written in an earlier posting, Rochdale 39 was rebodied in virtually identical style, and re-entered service enjoying an uneventful life thereafter until withdrawal in 1965. I very likely rode on it on short workings of the 9c from Rochdale to Thornham, being totally unaware of its sinister past.
Keith Jackson
24/08/11 – 11:45
Chaceley Humpidge- a name to conjure with: he was later at Bradford and then Sheffield: I assume the cream and blue at Sheffield was not brought with him from Rochdale- I think it predated him: and then the pale blue in Bradford: he worked with some pretty good liveries! We haven’t considered the General Managers on this site, but they must have made some influential decisions, especially in the golden years of the 50’s and 60’s.
Joe
24/08/11 – 15:56
Thanks, Keith, for the full explanation. As you say, it must have been a fairly traumatic scene. There was mention in a previous post of fatalities on No 39 but no mention in your ‘report’. Now, what’s the next one to investigate? !
TonyC
24/08/11 – 15:57
Fantastic Keith, you should be known as Keith Poirot! Joe, what about the Directors of Barton Transport for there ingenuity etc.
Roger Broughton
24/08/11 – 20:52
Barton Transport…not sure. Long ago, I used to ride the Nottingham-Leicester service occasionally. I always thought that they had stuck bits of an American diner on the buses to make them look “modern” but realise now that they were probably Duple bodies! Once you got going along the A46, things settled into a steady barking from the exhaust, as if someone had souped up some ancient rig or perhaps just modified the silencer to make them seem faster. What were these double-deckers- were they really anything special, or a bit mutton/lamb?
Joe
28/12/11 – 18:21
Someone asking which A.E.C. Regent was it that overturned on the 90 route, it was fleet No. 39 a 7’6″ Weyman bodied bus Reg. No, GDK 139 Also bus No.222, this was involved in a head-on collision on the No.3 route to Littleborough on a workers extra early one morning in either 1963 or 64. The collision occurred in the dip Smallbridge just before Tithe Barn Close, it collided with a lorry carrying Exide Battery casings heading towards Rochdale. The driver of the lorry was decapitated and the driver of No 222 was trapped in his cab for some period of time. My memory of this is a bit hazy now but I think the H.G.V. driver was the only fatality. No.222 was dragged to the temporary bus park which was in use at this time on Mellor St. due to the rebuilding of the running shed and here it lay as the chassis was substantially twisted on the O/S front. The vehicle eventually being towed away for scrap.
Douglas Neal
29/08/12 – 07:40
I’ve enjoyed reading these very thorough reports and observations and now I’ve seen the pictures, I’d like to ask a few questions. Wasn’t Broadway in 1951 four lanes and de-restricted? Also 1) The visibility at this junction was always good, so how did the driver of the 3 not see the 90 on his left? 2) The 3 is actually on the level but the 90 is climbing a gentle gradient but this makes me think that the 90 was going much faster than 25mph.
Mike Franks
29/08/12 – 07:56
Just to add to the above information, I was the conductress on the 222 on the day of the accident. The bus was traveling to Littleborough via Halifax Road. We were advised to travel out of service due to the weather conditions. So at that time there had been only myself and the driver on board. It was 1963 January or February and the snow was thick. As I recall an articulated lorry came over the brow outside the Greengate public house on the wrong side of the road and hit us head on. I am aware the driver of the lorry died at the scene. My driver was badly injured and I was knocked unconscious for a period of time. The bus had tilted to a dangerous position and was propped either by a emergency vehicle or other vehicle.
Elaine O’Reilly
29/08/12 – 10:24
Just a slight digression Elaine, on a far less distressing theme, but I daresay if you were a conductress in perhaps 1960 onwards you will also recall working on numbers 201 – 205. These five lovely vehicles came over the Pennines to join the Samuel Ledgard fleet at Otley, Leeds and Bradford depots and I worked on them all, but 201 mainly, and they were classic machines indeed.
Chris Youhill
25/01/14 – 08:07
I conducted then drove for Rochdale Corporation from 1965 until the SELNEC takeover then onto December 1973 with SELNEC. I conducted on all the Regent IIIs that were still in service including the last of the 7′ 6″ wide batch. My main memory of these narrow buses was that they had a deep recess on the platform where the conductor could stand out of the way of boarding and alighting passengers. The wider 8′ 00″ types didn’t have this recess and not infrequently I got my toes trodden on, including once by a large gentleman who had a false leg (needless to say that was the one on my toes). When I got to driving the Regents, only 221 of the GDK batch remained in service but all the 223-232 series, HDK23-32 were still working. I passed my PSV on 230 and this type were and still are my all-time favourites. Very pleasant to drive, with light steering and good acceleration and pre-selector gears. Happy memories of great buses.
Paul G
26/01/14 – 17:23
Talking of bus accidents of yore my grandfather was killed by a bus in January 1940 at Factory End, Summit, Littleborough when a tyre of a bus burst and it ran into him and also a schoolboy who was there also at the tragic scene. I am into family history and my grandfathers name was Thomas Dawson who worked on the railways. Would it be possible to find out more about the accident and also what bus it was.
Andrew Wylie
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
25/12/20 – 06:37
re. Andrew Wylie’s comment of 26/01/14 – 17:23
As nobody has answered this, may I add the following: The accident occurred about 4.50pm on Thursday 11th January 1940; it was growing dark; the bus was a Rochdale Corporation bus; it was travelling from Summit to Littleborough; the nearside front tyre burst; the driver apparently losing control of the vehicle, which mounted the pavement. Thomas Dawson (57) died along with Geoffrey Cryer (11) and Hillary Hudson (12) died in Rochdale Infirmary later of injuries sustained. (These details from Rochdale Observer Saturday 13th January 1940). An inquest was held on Monday 15th January 1940 at Birch Hill Hospital, in which the County Coroner exonerated the driver. Dawson’s widow was quoted as saying “I think you ought to know this: I do not blame the driver in any way.” (The two reports are on the British Newspaper Archive in the Rochdale Observer for Saturday 13th and Wednesday 17th January 1940). Mike Baron
Leeds City Transport 1954 AEC Regent III MCW H33/25R
Photo taken Leeds city bus station information from my now found official fleet lists my Leeds one is dated May 1964.
“TNW 757 entered service 1st December 1954. It was withdrawn 29th October 1970. The batch 755- 759 were all then sold to Telefilm Transport Ltd in November 1970 but immediately passed on to Pickersgill & Lavery at Barnsley for scrap”
Terry Malloy
TNW 759 of this batch of five buses (755 – 759) was fitted with an experimental “self locking” fluid flywheel ” a vicious device which made it very difficult to give a decent ride even for those of us who could be bothered to try ” many couldn’t. This mechanical pest earned 759 the nickname of “Leaping Lena” – a title which was confirmed by a very prominent piece of “BIRO GRAFFITI” above the windscreen.
Chris Youhill
Bring back the old two shades of green livery.
Anonymous
Here here Anonymous – I couldn’t agree more strongly – AND some windows which can be seen through instead of passengers having to look at the back of zany and largely ineffective advertising !! The last time that passengers were obliged to tolerate “horse box” gloom like this was in the London Blitz of WW2 when London Transport were obliged to board up shattered windows to keep the vehicles in service.
Chris Youhill
You can have your two shades of green if we can have our various applications of blue and cream in Sheffield and Rotherham – and proper green in my current neck of Surrey!
David Oldfield
Its a deal David !! There was no more handsome sight in Leeds Bus station than the Sheffield vehicles in cream and blue on service 67, especially sometimes the rare ECW bodied examples. As far as lovely leafy Surrey is concerned I just have to say “Bring back the immortal Godstone STLs.” Quite irrelevant I admit, but my first ever car was a 1934 Standard 9 – £25 “0n the road” – which was registered in Surrey – BPE 405 and affectionately nicknamed “Beepy” for obvious reasons. I shall now be missing for a few days as I’m having my right eye cataract removed tomorrow, and if its as excellent as the left one in February I shall be grateful and delighted.
Chris Youhill
The first Orions I ever saw were on Aldershot & District’s 1954 Dennis Lances, and at the time I thought they looked cheap and homemade, with only the nice two-tone green livery to redeem them. The Leeds Regent IIIs again prove that two greens (though very different from A&D’s) can bring a metal box to life. SUK 3, the ex-Wolverhampton Guy Arab IV at Wythall, proves again what a fine livery can do for an Orion, which I think looks its worst in BET overall red. For a design whose hideous incompetence shines triumphantly through any livery, I’ll go for those front-entrance Park Royal Southampton and Swindon deckers of the 1960s. Apparently the A&D Orions were about a ton lighter than their handsome East Lancs brethren, something for which the pre-war Gardner 5LWs they inherited must have been very grateful, and Tim Stubbs tells me that the Orion batch had to be sent back to Dennises to have the springs softened to cope with the unexpected lightness!
Ian Thompson
29/10/14 – 17:24
Hi after looking through your Pages of old AEC Buses! with great memories. Can you tell me any information about the bus that I used to travel home from school on in the early 1950s in Leeds, it was on the no 42 route traveling from Harehills to Lower Wortley traveling past Harehills County Secondary School. The bus had fleet no 700, the seats on this bus were not straight backed, each seat seat bent in the middle.
David Hill
30/10/14 – 07:11
Ian Thompson makes his always informed comment about this characteristic in respect of the 1954 Dennis Lance K4s of Aldershot & District, the first 20 of which carried sturdy East Lancs bodies, but the final 12 had Weymann Orion ‘tin cans'(though these were better finished than the norm). Dennis had to reset the springing to improve the ride. I doubt that many operators went to that trouble.
Roger Cox
30/10/14 – 07:12
David, if you look at the comments on Sheffield Leyland PD2 fleet number 391 on these pages you will find references to cranked seats and Leeds 700.
Ian Wild
30/10/14 – 07:12
MCW body with Roe staircase, by the look of it.
Ian T
31/10/14 – 16:27
David 700 was a one off AEC Regent II exhibited at the 1950 Earls Court Show. As Ian mentions its seats were an effort to give greater comfort to the traveling public it remained unique in the Leeds fleet.
Chris Hough
18/01/18 – 09:05
Lovely trip down memory lane on an LCT bus. In the 60’s I was a school kid living in Halton. The trudge up Halton Hill was always a struggle, especially if the bus was full when it became a first gear thrash that used to take forever. Would these double-deckers with rear landings have been Leyland Titans and AEC Regents?
Liverpool City Transport 1950 AEC Regent III Weymann H??R
This bus is pre 1951 because all buses in the Liverpool fleet after that date were 8ft wide and had two side by side destination boards with route numbers above a quick link here to view an example. The bodies were supplied from Weymann as frame only they were then finished by Liverpool Corporation in their own body shops.
When new, this bus DID have 2 cream bands, one below the upper windows and the other above the lower windows – most were repainted in the early 60s as above.
Anonymous
I remember these as being quite fast and manoeuvrable, with their pre-selector gearboxes and distinctive sound. Two particular memories – one, hearing and seeing them thundering along the Strand and Goree on the heavily trafficked 1 route between Dingle and Seaforth (the bus route which effectively replaced the overhead railway) and two, being upstairs on the peak workings of the 71 between Penny Lane and I think South Castle Street, upper deck thick with tobacco fug and not a seat to spare. On full return journeys buses were able to avoid the congested city centre and skirt up the hill past the cathedral non-stop,
Anonymous
04/05/12 – 08:52
I remember driving one on a road that was VERY BENDY and went through Woolton Golf course and it was far easier than the usual AEC MK Vs we usually used. It took the bend’s beautifully.
Dave
10/10/13 – 15:51
I worked at Walton garage as a conductor and driver and I have fond memories of the number 1 route Seaforth to Dingle with a full bus of Dockers on board going to work at various docks along the Liverpool waterfront
Billy
17/04/15 – 07:04
One thing I never could understand was how the pre-selector gearbox worked…can anyone post a simple, not too technical explanation?
Not many folk realise that something that many of were familiar with, when we were young, was an epicyclic gearbox; namely the Sturmey-Archer bicycle rear wheel hub, a compact gem of genius, IMHO.
Chris Hebbron
19/04/15 – 07:31
One thing that needs to be added to the article in Peter’s link is that on postwar AECs the change speed pedal operated by compressed air rather than a spring.
Peter Williamson
19/04/15 – 11:52
Guy also offered the Arab III with an air operated preselector gearbox.
Roger Cox
20/04/15 – 07:13
As usual I’m late to the party, but I thought I might as well jump on the (pre-selector) bus anyway. In previous threads contributors have written about the Daimler quadrant pre-selector selector. I’ve been puzzled as to how that worked, as opposed to a conventional selector gate, but never thought to ask . . . anybody out there care to enlighten me? Sturmey-Archer gears = Raleigh Chopper! Pennant on the back? Tassels from the handlebars?? Playing card clothes-pegged to the rear fork to give that “motorcycle” sound??? Not me! – too sophisticated (me, not the Chopper kids) – 15sp Derailleur for me (even if I only ever used about five). But I remember the arguments in the playground as to whether one should pedal/stop pedalling/back-pedal when changing Sturmey-Archers . . . did it matter?
Philip Rushworth
21/04/15 – 06:27
To the best of my memory, the quadrant went RN1234, from nearest the driver outwards. At least LT’s CWA/CWD’s did.
Chris Hebbron
21/04/2015 06:28:26
Philip, the quadrant selector simply moved in a continuous arc as may be seen in this picture:- www.flickr.com/photos/superkevs/ One had to be careful to set the lever accurately in preselecting the next gear, or the pedal would spring back with some vehemence. The gate type selector used by AEC on the Regent III was much more positive. Earlier AEC and some Guy preselectors used a selector that looked like a conventional gear lever. Take a look at this page:- www.flickr.com/photos/preselector Sturmey Archer bicycle gears – yes, you should stop pedalling when changing gear. The engagement of each epicycle gear is made by means of a rod (equivalent to the band brake on a bus gearbox) that locks each gear through the spindle. Keep pedalling, and you will chew it up and burr the matching gear internals to bits.
Roger Cox
21/04/15 – 09:44
Did the position of the Daimler gear-change vary even on the same model? My memory of the Portsmouth Daimler CWA6’s was of the gear select on the left side. The first link supplied by Roger shows it at the right side. As delivered, both the Portsmouth ones, and the Douglas one in the link would have been “identical”, of the CWA6 variant, and with Duple bodies. (The Portsmouth ones were rebodied in 1955 by Crossley, and appear elsewhere on this site). Perhaps my memory is incorrect, any comments welcome.
Michael Hampton
22/04/15 – 07:30
Roger, thanks for the informative post – exploring the links has filled up time why my class completed a mock examination.
Philip Rushworth
22/04/15 – 07:30
On Portsmouth’s rebuilt-bodied CWA6’s, the quadrant was definitely on the R/H side, Michael H. Never looked inside the cab of them in their original form.
Chris Hebbron
22/04/15 – 07:31
Wonderful picture Roger, (& Kev) of the cab of a Daimler CV/CW! I don’t think the CV was any less primitive. Would suit someone with strong arms and small feet. Good through-flow ventilation, too. Daimler (and others) never felt the need to promote their vehicles once sold- the fluted (often painted) radiator and a couple of D bosses on the front wheels (possibly?) were the only indicators. Leyland seemed to encourage you to put your own badge on the radiator, too. That all changed with the bustle buses with huge flutes, Atlas et al, although Leyland had rarely anything to put on the front of an Atlantean, unlike the St Helens front. Enough rambling: I think the quadrant was on the right on a CV?
Joe
23/04/15 – 07:02
Thanks Chris H for confirming the quadrant position. Clearly my memory is playing tricks! I only remember these in their rebodied form, even though I lived in the area when they were in original condition.
Michael Hampton
23/04/15 – 07:03
Manchester’s and Derby’s CAVs were certainly on the right Hand side. I have never driven nor seen one with it on the left. Because the settings used to wear, the gear was never where the mark was on the quadrant, so Drivers used to put pencil marks on it. There were that many marks on them, you still never knew where it was. You then used to put your own Mark on adding to the confusion. I loved driving pre-select buses, they also made you read the road, having the correct gear selected was important to keep up steady and speedy progress. BUT watch out for the pedal kicking back, it did hurt, OUCH.
Stephen Howarth
23/04/15 – 08:32
Roger wrote :- “One had to be careful to set the lever accurately in preselecting the next gear, or the pedal would spring back with some vehemence.” Roger, that’s definitely the finest and most eloquent description of the dangerous fault exhibited by the spring operated gearboxes that I’ve ever heard. the problem was, of course, even worse as not only did the pedal spring back with the vehemence mentioned but also came considerably further out than was the norm, which is how the pain and often injury occurred. Incidentally it was also necessary to raise a button to allow the quadrant lever to travel beyond neutral to select reverse. A further pitfall for fresh or inattentive drivers was to set off with gusto in first gear and to fail to preselect second gear – then a little later when correctly allowing the engine revs to die down before letting the pedal out you were likely to find the passengers and conductor trying to join you in the cab – the violent braking effect thus achieved would have given a very favourable reading on the Tapley Meter brake tests !!
Chris Youhill
24/04/15 – 06:25
Chris Y, we have obviously both suffered the less than tender mercies of the spring operated preselector when not treated precisely in accordance with ‘the book’. One could always pick out the casualties by their progress round the depot in their accurate impressions of Laurence Olivier in the role of Richard III. The pedal would come back twice as far as normal with the force of all the springs in the box (or so it seemed) generally thrusting one’s left knee into violent contact with the steering column. I wonder how modern companies would get on with such a gearbox in this age of compensation culture and ambulance chasing litigators. Your vivid description of the outcome of a lapse of memory in not preselecting the next upward gear is something that I must put my hand up to having enacted occasionally. The ensuing ‘g’ forces restored one’s concentration at lightening speed, so that one shoved and held the gear pedal down instantly. Ah, happy, joyous days. The modern crop of bus steering wheel attendants don’t know what a gearbox is.
Roger Cox
24/04/15 – 06:26
You have conjured up a wonderful image of said passengers and conductor crammed into the cab with the driver Chris! Very descriptive, and it made me chuckle. I’m sure I read somewhere in the distant past, that the height of the gearchange pedal on some buses with spring-operated preselector gearboxes varied, dependent on which gear the vehicle was in. Is this correct, or is it, to quote Hylda Baker “a figleaf of my imagination?”
Brendan Smith
24/04/15 – 08:47
Brendan Smith you are correct in thinking that the ‘Change speed pedal’ (sometimes referred to as ‘The Tripper pedal’), was at different heights depending on which gear it was in. Lowest being neutral, and highest being top, in normal driving. Not only was your knee jammed under the steering wheel but your heel was stuck under the seat frame. This along with your foot held on the pedal, made it virtually impossible to apply any pressure to push the pedal down against the 5 springs. Hence the need of outside assistance in returning it to the normal settings. At Derby we had a Driver called ‘Tripper Wood’ so named because he had been kicked by the pedal so many times, he used to slide his foot off quickly to avoid such occurrences. He gave a very rough ride, but had a regular mate, who, I guess was used to his driving style.
Stephen Howarth
25/04/15 – 09:23
There was just one ray of hope in the spring operated “kick back” scandal. If you were lucky enough to survive without injury to the ankle, and your foot was not trapped, it was usually possible to apply both feet to the extended pedal while heaving the shoulders against the cab rear window area – first of course making sure to positively select neutral. This usually worked, although Goodness knows what the passengers must have thought to the performance !!
Chris Youhill
26/04/15 – 07:48
For completeness I should add that later CVGs had a gear selector gate on the left, very similar to the one on the Regent III. Later still, when air brakes were offered, the gearbox could be either Daimatic (like the Fleetline) or air-operated preselect like the Regent III. But the spring-operated type continued to the end on vacuum-braked chassis.
Peter Williamson
28/04/15 – 06:59
Thanks for confirmation of the gearchange pedal positioning Stephen, and your reference to “tripper pedal” which I have not heard before, but is a very descriptive phrase. I had read that drivers’ knees were prone to a severe blow if the pedal kicked back, and Roger and Chris Y have also mentioned this, but how many of us realised that a driver could end up trapped with his knee under the steering wheel and heel under the seat frame? It sounds absolutely scandalous that such events could be deemed acceptable by manufacturers and operators alike, and must have led to severe bruising, and in extreme cases to fractures and torn ligaments/tendons, which are no laughing matter. On a lighter note however, Roger’s comment about injured drivers doing impressions of Richard III raised a chuckle. Presumably they would have preferred the RT’s air-operated system, but its only a hunch…..
Brendan Smith
23/01/17 – 07:33
As a child I recognised these AEC Regents which dominated route 1 from 1957 to 1967. Route 1 was the last route to employ 7ft 6 ins wide buses full time. The 1 allocation was drawn from the ranks of 9.6 litre preselector buses A325-349, later A525 etc, and A657-756. When route 1 started the roads in the south docks were unsuitable for buses and it was not until autumn 1958 that the council paved the Dingle area roads. The route north of the Pier Head had similar problems but a parallel route was adopted for the 1 which was not too far from the docks.Buses replacing the Overhead Railway had three problems, paving being one but the others were the need for the buses to climb Dingle Mount whereas the LOR burrowed through the cliffs, which meant the powerful 9612Es were essential for the task. The other obstacle was Stanley Dock Bridge which, 7′ 6″ wide buses could pass each other but not wider buses. This was not resolved till the 1990s and so when the narrower buses were withdrawn during 1967/68 buses had to take turns to cross the bridge. The 1 route, under Merseyside PTE a shadow of its former self as a frequent route vanished on deregulation in 1986. Some extracts of this sourced from Liverpool Transport Vol. 4 1939-57 by Messrs Horne & Maund.
Bradford Corporation Transport 1950 AEC Regent III 9612E Weymann H30/26R
This photo was taken just up the road from the Alhambra Theatre passing the entrance of the old bus station. This 1950 Regent III is on route to Queensbury and believe you me it is uphill all the way. There is a good saying referring to Queensbury which is just under 1000 feet above sea level it goes like this “Queensbury has 3 months of winter and 9 months of bad weather” not strictly true but its a good Yorkshireism.
Bus tickets issued by this operator can be viewed here.
AEC Regent III 9612E with 8ft wide Weymann Body one of the 1-40 batch 1949/50. FKY 1 to 40. Riding on them almost every day to school these became my favourite buses of all time and I used to know the 18 or so based at Horton Bank Top Shed as old friends. They were a good buy with last ones 7 and 13 going in 1970 and were preferred to the later tin front East Lancs ones 66-105 who’s bodies were not as good. Sadly none were preserved, indeed I don’t think there are any Regent III pre-selectors with the popular 8ft Weymann flared skirt body preserved, anywhere.
Kev
I also loved these buses as I lived in Great Horton from 1954 to 1971 and travelled on these buses nearly every day and I nearly have some 100 pictures of them some of which I took myself at bank top shed in the mid 60’s although not very good and I also have the original front number plate of FKY 17 (maybe the only surviving part of any of these buses) the nearest surviving bus I find to these is Morecambe & Heysham 73 which is under restoration at the Keighley Bus Museum.
Norman Shepherd
I can remember hearing the melodious tones of these vehicles whining their way up Great Horton Road on a Sunday morning when all was quiet and little traffic around. I have the back number plate off FKY 13 and dozens of photographs of them in service. FKY 1 was the first bus I wanted to preserve, but unfortunately this was not to be. Instead I have to endure “Bullnose” HKW 82 (nowhere near as handsome) and RT HLW 159 (not originally a Bradford bus) but that noise still haunts me to this day!!!!!
David Hudson
07/09/11 – 14:59
It’s interesting to observe the trend with these bodies to bring the paint down the front corners of the roofs. Amongst other operators, it was done with the postwar ‘provincial’ London Transport STL’s (and, bizarrely, one prewar RT late in life!)
Chris Hebbron
06/11/11 – 07:14
The paint style used on these vehicles varied over the years. When new the roofs were grey, and this did not come down the corners. They also had thin orange lining under the windows. Later the roofs were blue but they were not painted down the corners initially, this only happening in later years. Also there are variations as to where the cream was on the lower nearside bulkhead.
David Hudson
06/11/11 – 22:00
I recall these buses being used on the joint B.C.T and Yorkshire Woollen District service 4 to Dewsbury.
Philip Carlton
07/11/11 – 07:35
Trolleybuses 752-759 (FKU 752-9) had the same Weymann bodies, apart of course from the lower deck front end. In May 1952, 758 became the first British bus with flashing trafficators; it was the only one of the batch to survive until the end of the system, and is now preserved.
Martin S
07/11/11 – 12:16
752-759 were 5 bay though. 758 is slowly being restored at Sandtoft, under BTA (Bradford Trolleybus Association) ownership. My recollections of the 1-40 batch were that they were absolutely superb buses, and the quietest motorbuses I ever rode on. 1-22 (or 23?) were shedded at Banktop depot when new, as tram replacements, and were the most immaculate buses in the fleet for many years.
John Whitaker
29/01/13 – 15:33
I went to Bradford often as it was my favourite trolleybus system. The first visit was Saturday August 5th 1967 on a Dennis Loline from Manchester on the X12. Strange to recall that same vehicle 906 has been modelled by EFE on the X12! The trolleybus on that day were wonderful to see and ride on. However I also became aware of two other interesting observations. Firstly the constant drone of Bristol engined West Yorkshire Lodekkas slogging up Manchester Road to turn into the bus station and secondly the melodic sounds of Regent V buses echoing across the hills around the city centre. I always liked these buses despite being trolley replacements at various times. Used them on the joint service to Leeds the 72. The last time I rode on one was on one of the Christmas day services run from Keighley and I have a lovely video recording of 220 going to Dick Hudsons on another occasion.
Ralph Oakes-Garnett
15/11/19 – 07:26
Looks very similar to Burys pair, BEN 176/7, which became Selnec 6376/7. These were two of my favourite buses and one is preserved, 177.
David Pomfret
16/11/19 – 06:22
Re FKY 24 I have in my possession a roundel from an AEC wheel. Endorsed on the back ‘From the hub of FKY24 – B.C.P.T. Ticker’. I guess Ticker worked at the Bingley breakers yard. For full story and 2 pictures go to “Flea Market Find” .
Kingston upon Hull Corporation Transport 1953 AEC Regent III Weymann “AuroRa” H32/26R
Regent III I hear you shout, yes I thought it was a Daimler as well, until Paul Morfitt a K.H.C.T. expert pointed it out to me. K.H.C.T. bought 6 of these Regent IIIs with the Birmingham style tin front, they were apparently the last front engine/open platform buses bought brand new by them. Fleet number 337 is now fully preserved and should be out on the rally circuit next summer (2010) so keep your eye out for it. There is also a restored Bradford City Transport Regent III with a similar tin front it can be seen here.
04/04/13 – 06:28
The Weymann Aurora body is something of an enigma. The first one – also co-incidentally on an AEC Regent III with tin front – was built for Devon General and exhibited on the MCW stand at Earls Court in 1952 alongside the prototype Orion. An MCW sales brochure was produced, which was still being distributed two years later, but no more bodies of that type were ever built. In the meantime Weymann had been building this much more elegant design, which most people agree bears no resemblance to the prototype described in the brochure, and which could instead be traced back much more clearly to earlier Weymann bodies. It is almost as though Weymann simply thumbed its nose at the MCW design team and just carried on with their own design evolution as if nothing had happened. To confuse matters still further, a brief article in a recent edition of Classic Bus magazine, describing the prototype (which is now preserved) as unique, it was answered by not one but two letters referring to production Auroras as “virtually identical” to the prototype – one of them referring to these Hull vehicles and the other I think to some Bristols for Maidstone and District. It seems that resemblance, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder!
Peter Williamson
04/04/13 – 08:29
The Aurora is certainly an enigma – and a trap for those who only know half the story. I too have been puzzled by the lack of similarity between to prototype and production versions but the Weymann Story (in two volumes Senior/Venture) is very clear. The Aurora name was used for these modernised versions of the classic Weymann design (produced from 1953 to 1959). The MCCW Orion design was produced at Addlestone from about 1953 (the first being re-bodies of war time Guys for Maidstone & District). Interestingly, Addlestone were also building Aurora bodies on war time Bristols for M & D. What most people didn’t realise – me included – is that the Aurora name was then resurrected as the official and proper name for the forward entrance version on the Orion.
David Oldfield
04/04/13 – 11:03
Just remembered the Bournemouth trolleys which had the Aurora as late as 1962.
David Oldfield
04/04/13 – 11:04
Here is a photo of the preserved one-off 1952 Aurora, Devon General NTT 679, taken at the Devon General Running Day at Newton Abbott in 1993.
John Stringer
04/04/13 – 15:49
The main difference between the prototype Aurora and the production model seems to be the move from pan window fixing to rubber mounting.
Here is an example of the production version as supplied to Birkenhead Corporation in 1954. Apart from being on an exposed radiator chassis, it differs from the Hull version in having a 5-bay body. The traditional Weymann drooping saloon window is much in evidence. Birkenhead dabbled with Weymann as a body supplier. The batch of 10 Auroras was not the whole of the CBG intake, the remaining 5 of the batch having locally-built Ashcroft bodies. The 1955 intake of 17 vehicles (10 PD2 and 7 Arab IV) saw half the PD2s bodied with the Orion style, and finally in 1964 came the one-off batch of 10 Fleetlines, again with Orion style, one of which appears on the left of the picture. (Originally delivered with the cream relief as window surrounds only, the appearance of the Fleetlines was much improved with the application of the standard livery on repaint, as seen here.)
Alan Murray-Rust
05/04/13 – 05:51
To me there are more differences than similarities. On the prototype, the dimensions of the windows – deep lower, shallow upper – are more like a production Orion than any other Aurora (and the deep lower deck windows were made much of in the sales brochure). On the production version, as Alan says, the traditional Weymann drooping bulkhead window is much in evidence, whereas on the prototype the top rail is straight and only the bottom curved, again just like most highbridge Weymann Orions. In fact the only similarities I can find (using other images) are in the front and rear domes and the rear emergency window.
Peter Williamson
23/04/13 – 07:50
My favourite bus, thin steering wheel and a smooth seat which you could slide off on exit from a roundabout and if it was a hot day and your cab door was open it could be interesting. A lot of drivers didn’t like them because you couldn’t see the pavement from the cab. I thought they were great, the exhaust would roar when you put your foot down.
box501
03/06/14 – 12:52
The Daimler and Guy Utilities of Maidstone and District were rebodied with a later form of five bay Weymann body derived from the pre and early post war design but with deeper windows upstairs. Only some Utility Bristol K6As had four bay ‘Aurora’ or five bay ‘Orion’ bodies. The only Orion bodied Guys which Maidstone and District had, were the Guy Arab IVs acquired or ordered by Chatham and District which were based on new post war chasses.
