…of vehicles pre-1970
Copyright Ray Soper
This shot is from the Ray Soper gallery contribution titled “Smith’s Luxury Coaches of Reading” click on the title if you would like to view his Gallery and comments.
The shot is shown here for indexing purposes but please feel free to make any comment regarding this vehicle either here or on the gallery.
I think any bus would look good in the K.H.C.T. livery but a Weymann flared skirt bodied Regent II looks just about perfect.
This bus was one of a batch of 16 Regent IIs delivered in 1946, they were the first non utility bodied buses delivered to Hull after the war. They were followed the following year 1947 by a batch of 24 Regent IIIs then between 1948 and 1950 there were 56 more Regent IIIs delivered. These buses were desperately needed after the war due to the bombing that Hull received. K.H.C.T. certainly liked there AECs apart from 10 ex Newcastle Corporation Daimler CVG6s photo here all there double deckers were AEC until the arrival of the rear engined Leyland Atlanteans in 1960 which by the way were the first front entrance double deckers in the fleet.
The KHCT ‘streamline’ livery reached its peak on the Coronation trolleybuses. I spent many happy hours travelling to Brunswick Ave school, on these trolleybuses, what a shame none were preserved.
Keith Easton
Photograph by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
A pair of very handsome AEC Regents from the Northern General Tynemouth and District subsidiary. They are pictured at Whitley Bay Bandstand waiting to depart on the service 8 to North Shields Ferry Landing, they would follow exactly the same route as the tram service that ceased operation about 1931, not unsurprisingly it was know locally as ‘the track’.
If my records are correct, between 1947 and 1949 Percy Main took delivery of 37 Regents, all were H30/28R’s. The 1947/8 intake were all Weymann bodied, 15 in 1947 FT 5698/712 – 128/52; followed by a further 14 in 1948, FT 6143/56 – 143/56. In 1949, 21 vehicles joined the fleet, they consisted of 8 AEC Regent 111’s with Northern Coachbuilders bodies, FT 6557/64 – 157/64 the first two carried the Wakefields name, the remaining 13 were all Pickering bodied as were, 10 Guy Arab’s FT 6565/74 – 165/74 and three re bodied Regent 1’s of I think 1936 vintage – FT 4220/22 – 93/5, they had previously been Weymann forward entrance. By the time I started in 1967 all the Regents had gone, but I seem to think the Northern Coachbuilders batch went first. The Regents were the last AEC Double Deckers to be bought by Percy Main but they kept faith with AEC for coaches and single deckers.
As a footnote, in 1957 the three re bodied Regents were sold to Provincial as replacements for vehicles destroyed in a fire, the last one remained in service until 1963, by which time the chassis was 27 years old.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye
12/11/12 – 10:56
Strange how some things just work. This design was good when first introduced and just got better post war culminating in the superb four bay version. The interim (Aurora) still had character and style but the Orion never quite lived up to it’s predecessors. Like the Burlingham Seagull – “Follow that!” It’s not that easy.
David Oldfield
12/11/12 – 16:33
Can anyone tell me what type of gear control these vehicles used, manual or pre-select like the London Transport RT’s?
Norman Long
12/11/12 – 17:01
No options at all with the MkII Norman, AEC A173 7.7 litre (7.58) engine, four speed sliding mesh gearbox and vacuum assisted brakes.
Spencer
After the Intake of early 1940, no more vehicles arrived at Percy Main until 1946, in the meantime, seven vehicles were transferred to other Northern General Transport depots, eight more were requisitioned by the Ministry of War Transport.A total of 15 from a fleet of around 110 was a sizable chunk. For a while, spares availability became a problem, so it was not uncommon for vehicles awaiting parts to be cannibalised to keep others going. The first post war intake arrived in 1946 in the form of five H30/26R Northern Counties bodied 5GLW Guy Arab III’s. However, as has been mentioned before, Northern General Transport allowed its subsidiaries a degree of independence with vehicle choice and spec, so it was not long before Percy Main reverted to AEC.
Between 1947/8 they took delivery of 29, H30/26R Weymann bodied Regent II’s, which at that time amounted to roughly a quarter of the fleet. The first batch delivered in 1947 were FT 5698 to 5712 and numbered 128 to 142, the 1948 intake were FT 6143 to 6156, numbered 143 to 156. 141-142 & 156 carried the Wakefields name but were otherwise identical. The Regent II chassis had a 7.7 Litre diesel engine, four- speed sliding mesh gearbox and friction clutch, buying wasn’t complicated, it was bog standard with no other options available, so it came down to a straightforward decision of take it or leave it. Like most vehicles of the period, by today’s standards they were unrefined, but they were well built rugged and reliable, and demanded a degree of respect, anyone foolish enough to try to abuse them would generally find that the Regent was made of stern stuff. They also had one essential ingredient that modern vehicles don’t have, a conductor! As anyone who has ever worked a dual crew bus will tell you, conductors will be the first to complain if the ride is anything less than acceptable. The choice of body was a different matter with umpteen options on offer, Percy Main opted for Weymann, the build quality was top notch, and arguably one of the best looking bodies of the period. they were no strangers to it having bought similar vehicles in 1940: 152, was from the 1948 intake and is seen here in its original livery. By the time of its first repaint “about 1951”, the black lineout had been dropped and the fleet name was much smaller, but the gold coach lines were still in vogue. Note the flip down metal DUPLICATE plate under the overhang, apart from the later Routemasters; this was a standard fitting on all Northern General Transport group half cabs
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye
28/07/14 – 07:57
It’s surprising how many Percy Main depot buses have appeared in model form. AEC Regent 135 (similar to the above photo) was issued by Corgi many years ago. They also issued Leyland Olympian 3593 from a later era. Britbus weighed in with Coastline Atlantean 3458. E.F.E. have been the most prolific with Leyland PD2 / Orion 230, AEC Renown as Tynemouth 333 and yellow Northern 3743, Atlantean / MCW yellow Northern 3194 as well as yellow Northern National 4444 and Coastline Wright Low Floor 4769. Quite an impressive representation really for one depot.
Keith Bruce
26/10/15 – 16:17
A query about this photo is the location. Looking at it, it could be Park Road, Whitley Bay. The area behind the bus was originally occupied by Whitley Park Hall. This later became a hotel, and part of the grounds became the Spanish City. The hotel closed and was demolished in the thirties. In the mid sixties, a new library was built on the site replacing the previous library which was located at the United bus station.
All this has now gone. The Spanish city has been replaced by a new school, while the library has been relocated nearer the town centre. Park Road itself has since the late sixties been a one way street in the opposite direction to which the bus is travelling.
None of this is relevant to the bus, but part of the fascination of old bus photos is seeing how much has changed – not just the buses, but the surroundings.
John Gibson
27/10/15 – 06:32
It could be Park Road, Whitley Bay, very close to the junction with Park Avenue.
Paul Robson
27/10/15 – 06:34
John, as you say, the photo was taken a long time ago, so everything may have changed. However, my guess would be that the bus is heading west along Linskill Terrace opposite the golf course, and the trees are in Northumberland Park
Ronnie Hoye
28/10/15 – 07:00
Linskill Terrace, Tynemouth, is another possibility. However the curve in the road there occurs at the north end of Washington Terrace and you would expect to see behind the bus some of the Edwardian-era houses between Washington Terrace and Park Avenue.
Paul Robson
28/10/15 – 07:01
When I first saw this photo, I was not too certain of it’s location. The photo as reproduced here has been somewhat cropped, but the bends in the road which can be seen more clearly in the original seem to match those on Park Road. There are also buildings in the distance which look to be those between Marine Avenue and the Spanish City. As Paul Robson says, it looks as if it was taken close to the junction with Park Avenue. I would agree however that it could be elsewhere and Ronnies suggestion of Linskill Terrace is certainly a possibility.
Regarding Keith Bruce’s comments about models of Tynemouth vehicles, the E.F.E. model of 230 is a nice model, but it should be a PD3, not a PD2.
John Gibson
29/10/15 – 06:35
Having looked at this again, I think we could all be wrong. It could well be Wallsend Road, at the foot of Balkwell Avenue, opposite the Pineapple Pub. The trees would then be in the grounds of St Joseph’s R.C. school. The present church was built in the late 50’s or early 60’s, which would be after this photo was taken, and the area on the bend where the stone wall is now has a low brick wall which is at the edge of the car park.
Ronnie Hoye
01/07/22 – 06:03
Definitely Park Road, almost at Park Avenue junction. The park is Whitley Park, and the parkkeeper’s house is behind the stone wall – his son was a friend of my brother. The distant bend is indeed the Spanish City funfair location.Service 4 Gateshead was renumbered Service 1 Gateshead Lobley Hill Moorfoot subsequently.
Conrad Smith
Having completed its journey, 156 is seen here turning round at Whitley Bay Bandstand before returning to North Shields Ferry Landing. The service 8 was known to crews as ‘the track’ because it followed the exact route of the Tynemouth and District trams. The AEC Regent II chassis was well built, rugged and reliable, and was available in two options, take it or leave it. The engine was a 7.7 litre diesel, and the transmission was a 4-speed sliding mesh gearbox with friction clutch. It was an entirely different matter when it came to choice of body. NGT Percy Main depot opted for the H30/26R Weymann. This is one of twenty nine of the type delivered to them between 1947 & 48; the 1947 intake were FT 5698 to 5712, 128/142, and 1948 were FT 6143 to 6156; 143/156; they were all ‘Tynemouth’ apart from 141 – 142 & 156 which carried the Wakefields name. The first vehicles to carry this style of livery layout were the 1958 Orion bodied PD3/4’s, so the photo is after that date, but just look at the collection of coaches in the background.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye
10/11/14 – 06:58
Good to see a Regent II. I used to take them for granted in Reading, where they were the mainstay of the motorbus fleet from 1947 to 64, but they seem rare today. Was the choice of 5 bays a matter of date, of chassis design or of operator’s choice?
Ian T
10/11/14 – 08:23
According to “Weymann Part 2”, these were delivered (due to shortages) without destination blinds and with metal panelling covering the “empty holes”.
David Oldfield
10/11/14 – 11:47
I think that the matter of 4- or 5-bay bodywork is a matter of date. The 5-bay was standard in the immediate post-war years, on AEC and other makes. I am fairly sure I read somewhere that Weymann re-designed the body as four-bay for the AEC Regent III chassis, but did not build it on other makes/types, at least initially. Perhaps those with access to the “Weymann Part 2” book will find some detail, as my memory may be in “error mode” on this one.
Michael Hampton
10/11/14 – 13:31
Michael, I don’t know when the change came about, but Percy Main’s 1952 Guy Arab III’s ‘FT 7381/90 – 181/90 were four bay type. They were also P/M’s first 8ft wide D/D’s, and the first with sliding cab doors.
Ronnie Hoye
10/11/14 – 13:32
I think, originally, that AEC and the body-builders colluded to make a four bay body – but it relied on body fixing points. Guy and then Leyland eventually caught up by building chassis with compatible points and then Daimler. [Bristol was obviously a different case.] What was more interesting was the reversion to five short bays with the appalling early Orions.
David Oldfield
14/11/14 – 14:56
What was the difference between a Regent II & III’s. We had Regent III’s in Sheffield around the same year. They had pre selector gearboxes though.
Andy Fisher
15/11/14 – 05:41
AEC Regent. Mark I, II and III.
AEC Regent 661 petrol engine was built from 1929-1942, powered by an AEC A145 7.4 litre engine, many of the early examples had the open staircase later enclosed and the typical 30 seats over 26 seat layout became the standard design on a 27 foot long by 7 feet 6 inch wide chassis with over 7000 built.
AEC Regent Mk II 661/O661 was developed in the late 1930’s at 27 feet 6 inches by 7 feet 6 inches with the A173, 7.7 litre 6 cylinder diesel oil engine, resulting in the London Transport RT 1-151, the Regent II was curtailed during the second world war but recommenced after the war with only 700 built.
After the war AEC with London Passenger Transport Board had developed the AEC Regent III O961 with the more powerful AEC 9.6 litre engine. 8261 were built over the next 10 years, most of these were the iconic RT for London Transport.
Ron Mesure
15/11/14 – 05:42
The Regent II had a 7.7 litre engine, sliding mesh gearbox and vacuum brakes. The Regent III was its successor, and could be supplied with the same spec, in which case there was very little difference between the two. Most Regent IIIs however had the 9.6 litre engine, and many of these had air brakes and air-operated preselector gearboxes (especially in Yorkshire!). In this form the Regent III was a development of the London RT type which had its origins just before the war.
Peter Williamson
14/12/18 – 06:24
I have only just noticed that four years ago Ron Mesure attempted to give a fuller and more detailed answer to Andy Fisher’s question than mine. Unfortunately this is mainly incorrect.
Firstly, the petrol engines used in the Regent 661 were of 6.1 litre capacity, the 7.4 litre A145 being reserved for the three-axle Renown. Diesel engines included an 8.8 litre and a 6.6 litre unit as well as a couple of Gardners (rarely fitted).
Secondly, the version with the 7.7 litre engine was not called Regent II before the war and did not include RT1-151, which used a 9.6 litre engine like all subsequent RTs. Although designated as O661 and built before the Regent II was introduced, RT1-151 (and an odd similar chassis for Glasgow) are now regarded as the first Regent IIIs.
Thirdly, the lengths quoted are incorrect, as the maximum length of a two-axle double decker was 26 feet until 1950.
Peter Williamson
HGC 225 is an AEC Regent II with Weymann H56R body, and it dates from 1946. It wears Country Area green in this view, and the fleet number STL2692. Allowing for the London method of bus overhauls, how many chassis and bodies have worn this fleet number over the years? It is on Itchen Bridge, while taking part in the Southampton city transport centenary rally on 6 May 1979.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
19/03/17 – 10:49
“How many chassis and bodies have worn this fleet number over the years?” The answer is, just this one. These post war STL Regents didn’t last long enough with LT to pass through the Aldenham works, which only became fully operational in 1956. These buses were sold off by LT in 1955 as deliveries of the RT type became an embarrassment to the point where many new ones, together with others of the RTL class, were put straight into store upon receipt from the manufacturers. Some of these light STLs were used in 1954 on the 327 route at Hertford which traversed a weak bridge, but they were replaced in the following year by “pre war” (actually wartime) RTs which were less heavy than their post war cousins. This allowed the entire class of post war STLs to be sold to the dealer North of Leeds in July/August 1955. They soon found new owners with Dundee, Grimsby and Widnes corporations where they gave sterling service for upwards of six more years. STL 2692 went to Grimsby who got twelve years out of it before withdrawing it early in 1968.
Roger Cox
21/03/17 – 06:19
Thanks, Roger!
Pete Davies
21/03/17 – 06:20
Roger, do you happen to know if one of the municipalities you mention, perhaps Grimsby, changed the gearboxes in their examples from crash to pre-select?
I’m sure I’ve read it somewhere!
Chris Barker
21/03/17 – 08:45
Chris B – I hadn’t heard of this procedure, but if it did take place in Grimsby you have to wonder why go to such expense in a town which I assume is “as flat as a pancake” and driving a bus with a traditional transmission should surely present no problems.
Chris Youhill
21/03/17 – 15:55
Chris and Chris – I can find no record of any of these former LT STLs undergoing a gearbox change from crash to preselector, but, if true, the most likely candidate amongst the subsequent owners must surely be Dundee which had a fleet of Daimlers and AEC Regent III at that time. Do we have a Dundee expert on OBP? The Grimsby situation should be easily determined by an examination of HGC 225 itself.
Roger Cox
22/03/17 – 06:08
One of my wife’s friends lives in Grimsby. I’ll check and find out in respect of the pancakes . . .
Wife’s friend has been consulted. Grimsby is largely flat with bumps, but Cleethorpes is generally hilly with flat bits.
Pete Davies
22/03/17 – 06:10
I think I travelled on all of Grimsby’s ex-STLs (nos. 42-47 of which HGC225 was 47. 43 was HGC222 and 46 HGC219 – don’t know the others). I am sure that none were changed to pre-selectors. However there were four (I think) ex-Sheffield Regents – nos. 41 and 48-50 (?) with registrations in the KWE250 series. These had more or less identical Weymann bodies, and were pre-selectors from new. They were visually identifiable by the deeper windscreen. I’m away from home at the moment, so this is all from memory plus one or two snippets I have filed on here!
And then I realised…one of the Sheffield transfers featured in David Careless’s post in June 2013, and I responded at the time thus : “The transfers became Grimsby-Cleethorpes Transport numbers 41 (KWE 258), 48 (KWE 251), 49 (KWE 252) and 50 (KWE 254). The intervening numbers 42-47 were occupied by similarly Weymann-bodied Regent IIs ex London Transport (HGC 233, 222, 227, 228, 219 and 225 respectively).”
Stephen Ford
22/03/17 – 06:11
As a one-tome Grimbarian, I remember STL2692 as Grimsby No. 47, bought in 1955 with five other STLs to replace trolleybuses on the 10 route. Dundee was the only buyer of this batch of STLs to convert them to preselector gearboxes. HGC 225 served her initial Grimsby years in a crimson lake and cream livery, after the 1957 combination of the Grimsby and Cleethorpes operations, her colours were various permutations of blue and cream.
Mark Evans
12/01/19 – 08:25
As conjectured earlier, it was for the Dundee tram-replacement fleet that some of these London Transport Regent II were converted to pre-selector transmission. A Buses Extra article detailed the changes. I believe all the gearboxes were reconditioned, previously fitted to pre-war Dundee buses in process of withdrawal.
Stephen Allcroft
15/01/19 – 06:55
Thanks, Stephen A for the information, so it was Dundee who swapped the gearboxes for pre-selectors. I understand the post-war O661 Regent II was not offered with such a gearbox but the pre-war model (just Regent, not Regent I) was. I believe the gear selection was by means of a conventional type gear stick which rose from the floor rather than a steering column mounted unit although I’m not sure if this was universal.
Stephen says the gearboxes were reconditioned units salvaged from pre-war buses. It would be interesting to know which method of selection was employed, whichever it was, it made Dundee’s conversions unique as Regent IIs.
Chris Barker
16/01/19 – 07:19
My recollection of all the London Transport pre-war pre-selective buses (I regard the first RT’s as being Wartime) I travelled on as having conventional floor-mounted gearlevers.
I never came across a pre-war Daimler CO bus, but imagine that they would have had the simpler type of steering column lever which the CW types did in the war.
Chris Hebbron
18/01/19 – 06:34
My CO bus has the same lever set-up as CW
Roger Burdett
19/01/19 – 06:24
Thx, Roger B.
“Why change something so simple?” might well have been Daimler’s attitude and it certainly continued with their CV’s.
I had a neighbour when I lived at Morden, in Daimlerland, who’d worked both at both Putney and Merton Garages and felt that Daimler’s simple gearchange was preferable to the RT’s one.
Chris Hebbron
20/01/19 – 06:57
The later Daimler CVs (e.g. Derby Corporation’s fleet of CVG6s and no doubt many others) had an H-gate selector, similar to the AEC set-up, on the left side of the steering column (as opposed to the earlier quadrant type selector mounted on the right).
Stephen Ford
20/01/19 – 06:58
The quadrant type of gear selector used on Daimler’s CO, CW and early CV series was the same as on Daimler cars. The CV changed to the AEC type around 1953-5.
Peter Williamson
21/01/19 – 07:12
The preselector version of the Guy Arab had a floor mounted gear lever; Guy built its own preselector gearbox.
Roger Cox
24/08/22 – 06:36
I remember these 10 STLs arriving in Dundee country area green along with 30 Cravens-bodied RTs for tram replacement. The RTs with roofbox route number displays were instantly recognisable and were known locally as ‘London Buses’. Their moquette upholstery in place of the leather on the indigenous buses was also a recognition point once you were aboard. But the STLs looked so similar to the home-grown variety that none of my schoolmates would believe me that they were ex-LT. Their HGC series registrations made it obvious, but that convinced no-one! Very frustrating.
George
26/08/22 – 05:57
My only experience and sight of one was on Epsom Day in about 1950/51, when I took a ride back to Morden on one. It was the newest bus I saw that day, among all the other almost forgotten museum pieces raked out from dusty corners of garages. And a long way from its home garage in Hertfordshire!
It was also the only AEC I travelled on with this Weymann’s bodywork: the others all being Leylands.
Chris Hebbron
29/08/22 – 06:30
A caption in ABC London Transport Buses either 1961 or 1962 (I’m not sure but it was at the time when only a few trolleybuses were still in service) stated that London Transport took delivery of provincial Regents and for convenience designated them as STL’s. Maybe a reader still has copy of the book and could give more information.
Andy Hemming
25/09/22 – 06:35
Here is a shot taken on an HCVC Brighton Rally in the early 1970s of HGC 225 as No.47 in the livery of Grimsby-Cleethorpes Joint Transport Committee.
Roger Cox
29/09/22 – 06:09
Thanks for that, Roger. I wonder if she’s still around. That’s a strange roof layout – anyone know the reason for it?
Chris Hebbron
30/09/22 – 05:43
I know NGT had some of these, three I think, and NGT’s depot at Percy Main had 29.
That was out of a fleet of 105 vehicles, which included 12 coaches, and 6 single deckers, so over a third of the D/D fleet.
They were all delivered between 1945 & 1948, and were withdrawn between 1958 & 1960.
They all had 0661 engines, and all had crash boxes.
Ronnie Hoye
30/09/22 – 05:49
Chris H, I may be wrong but I believe the strange roof layout, not normally seen, was simply because the framework was on the outside of the single skin roof. I have vague recollections of riding on Midland General’s Weymann bodied Regent IIIs and remember seeing the exposed framework of the side panels from the interior. I’m not saying the bodies were meant to be lightweight at all but I’m pretty sure most of the panelling was single skinned.
Chris Barker
01/10/22 – 05:32
Sorry about the typo in my post chaps and chaperones.
It should have been NCT (Newcastle) had three and not NGT written twice.
Re the unusual roof.
The 29 in the Tynemouth & Wakefields fleet at Percy Main came in two batches. If memory serves, the first were the same as the one in the photo, with the frame on the outside, but the next batch (two years on) were double skinned.
This was just after the war, and my feeling is that he exposed frame may have been due to material shortages rather than weight saving.
Ronnie Hoye
Copyright Colin Martin
Copyright Davis Simpson Collection
When my photos of the Cheltenham & District Albion Venturer
CX19 No. 72, were published they attracted a comment from Ian Thompson which read as follows-
“Three of the civilised and handsome Weymann-bodied 56-seat AEC Regents, mentioned by Chris, went in 1947 to fellow Red & White company Venture of Basingstoke, passing in 1951 to Wilts & Dorset. They were DG 9819 (No. 2) and DG 9820 (No. 3) of 1934, and BAD 30 (No. 10) of 1936. I remember seeing them (and secretly clambering aboard them in the AWRE Aldermaston bus park in 1955-56).”
Above are two photos of No.2, firstly looking immaculate with Cheltenham & District on 23rd May 1939 and then, about 1952, as ex-Venture 91, looking a little careworn on a filthy day, after Wilts & Dorset had taken over Venture.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Chris Hebbron
This later-life picture of DG 9818 brings back not only happy memories of AWRE Aldermaston bus park in the 50s, but also a question that has niggled me for years.
I was never content with bus-spotting from outside and was always curious about staircases and upstairs seating layout. I very distinctly recall a decker whose staircase started in the usual way–three or four steps rising towards the offside rear corner–but then instead of turning to rise forward, it made a 180-degree turn to debouch upstairs facing the nearside. The two forward-facing seats opposite the top step were only singles. I don’t remember any incursion downstairs: the whole staircase fitted into the platform-well. My admittedly fallible memory recalls this bus as one of the Cheltenham trio, but when I asked a retired Cheltenham driver about it sixteen years ago he could recall no such layout; nor could Colin Martin, author of Cheltenham’s Trams and Early Buses (Tempus 2001) and other authoritative bus books.
I’ve studied hard the photos of the DGs and BADs in Colin’s books and in Venture Limited by Birmingham and Pearce (1995) and in Wilts and Dorset, by Colin Morris and Andrew Waller (Hobnob 2006) and can see nothing that suggests what I recall. The DGs had only 24 seats downstairs and the BADs 26, but they all seated 30 upstairs, so there again there’s nothing to back me up. I begin to wonder whether the bus that I recall so clearly wasn’t an ex-Cheltenham after all, but then whose was it? All the E. Yorkshire Beverley Bar buses I’ve clambered around on seem to have had conventional stairs but with Roe-type square top steps. Can anyone disentangle me? Thanks!
And thanks, Chris H, for the pictures.
Ian Thompson
10/02/11 – 10:16
These three AECs which went to Venture as nos 85, 88 and 91 all had Gardner engines on arrival at Venture. The front bulkhead downstairs had a large rectangular panel (with round corners) protruding into the lower saloon above the flywheel cover – presumably because the Gardner 6LW took up more room than the standard AEC. They sounded rather like tractors compared with the usual Venture AECs. The staircases did indeed turn through 180 degrees and the top step protruded into the lower saloon above the off-side sideways seat next to the staircase: it was rather oval-shaped and a good example of the metalworker’s art as despite the many footsteps no dents or bumps were visible. It was just large enough for a footstep. There was no danger of a passenger bumping a head as upon standing up the body was clear of the intrusion.
Michael Peacock
24/03/12 – 09:25
As a kid I remember traveling to school on these old AEC Regents. One of the features of the Weymann coachwork was access to the destination blinds on the top deck by undoing two latches thus enabling one to alter the route number. As some of the stops were shared by more than one route such action caused some concern to passengers and did not last very long as astute conductors would remove us guilty or otherwise.
Deryck
06/12/12 – 16:54
Somehow I managed to miss Michael Peacock and Deryck’s comments on the Cheltenham Regents that ended their careers with Wilts and Dorset, and have only just read them! It’s a relief to know that my recollection of the odd staircase wasn’t mistaken after all. I think this arrangement must have been a Balfour Beatty speciality, as it’s shared by the 1949 Notts and Derby BUT/Weymann H32/26R trolleybus at the West of England collection at Winkleigh, Devon, which I saw only two months ago. Given the above-average upper deck seating capacity, the nearly-180-degree staircase was obviously space-thrifty. Belated thanks to Michael and Deryck for shedding more light on these fascinating vehicles.
Ian Thompson
Copyright David Whitaker
On 31st December 1962, a heavy snowfall occurred in the Portsmouth area, an unusual happening, and the snowy conditions lingered on until the March of 1963. The immediate consequence in Portsmouth was that Portsmouth’s trolleybuses bounced on the snow-packed uneven and unsalted roads to the extent that the poles came off the wires, with motor buses having to take over for a day or so!
On the other side of Portsmouth Harbour, having come to grief in a ditch, the first photo shows Provincial 48 (JML 784) about to be recovered from a ditch in Brookers Lane (outskirts of Gosport), unusually by a Royal Navy crane, on 2nd January. A Royal Naval Air Station was only a few miles away at Lee-on-Solent. The second photo shows the bus “in full swing” and about to land on “all foursâ” again.
No.48 started life as a demonstrator, prior to being taken into “Provincial” stock on 01.05.39, being numbered 48 in October 1939.
The accident was not fatal to the vehicle, for it lasted in service until 27.08.64, a creditable 25 years with Provincial in total.
Photos by kind permission of David Whitaker. Copy by Chris Hebbron, with vehicle’s history taken with his permission from Ray Tull’s “Provincial” website www.regent8.co.uk
19/05/12 – 15:38
There’s an active “interest” group ‘The Provincial Society’. They have a website as follows: www.provincialsociety.org
Pete Davies
Copyright R H G Simpson
Another R H G Simpson photo which I think is worth sharing. Sheffield livery as you’ve never seen it before? Although many vehicles were taken into stock in 1935, this one was not part of a batch, and is possibly the only bus to appear this way in the fleet.
It would appear to be an attempt at streamlining, indeed the front seems to be raked back more than usual, that might just be an illusion caused by the livery application.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Les Dickinson
05/04/13 – 05:59
A similar AEC Regent also with Weymann body albeit fully fronted was exhibited at the 1935 show in Leeds livery. This was later converted to half cab and was lent to London in the second world war.
Chris Hough
05/04/13 – 05:59
This was one of a pair – the other for Leeds – with this streamlined design which were, I believe, also show exhibits. This Sheffield example, at least, was originally full fronted but Sheffield had it converted to half-cab for the obvious and usual access reasons before it entered service.
Weymann’s first double decker in 1931 was a demonstrator which became Sheffield No66 in 1932. 85 Regent/Weymann deckers followed until 1940 (208 a one off, the rest related to and culminating in the well known classic style). Apart from penny numbers from Park Royal, 10 Cravens and 19 from the Corporation Tramways works at Queens Road, all AEC Regents pre-war came from Addlestone. 197 post war Regent III and V came from Addlestone – along with 102 PD2s.
David Oldfield
05/04/13 – 09:01
…and then we complain about modern liveries! I suppose it was a one-off, but it does suggest that the continuing Hull livery came from another era.
Joe
05/04/13 – 15:34
Joe:
It certainly wasn’t a one-off. Manchester for a period went the same way, and the influence persisted in the standard liveries of Huddersfield Corporation and Rochdale.
In practice, we were very fond of swooshes back in the 1940s and 50s. Virtually every coach builder had their own pattern of shapes which allowed us to recognise whose body it was; of course in those days we simply called it ‘trim’. The ultimate development of livery application that bore no relationship to the lines of the body undoubtedly came from the Yeates works!
I think we can get too rose-tinted about the liveries of that era. Where I grew up as a child – north Somerset – buses all looked the same, and as we took early holidays down in Cornwall there was no difference there either. Nothing really to arouse the interest, so it wasn’t until many years later that I started to develop an interest. Even then – I had moved north by that time – there was Crosville on the doorstep . . .
I do feel that our affection for the old liveries is as much a longing for the variety of those years; the individual liveries were often themselves pretty boring – Liverpool, Manchester all red, London – but they did distinguish the operators from their neighbours. We used to admire those operators who took the trouble to continue to use a separate colour on the beading between the main colours, or apply the odd gold lining, but is this really any different from the way bits of colour are applied in today’s liveries?
A post elsewhere makes the point that today’s young people will doubtless grow up with the same attitude towards the style of today as we did 50 or so years ago.
Alan Murray-Rust
06/04/13 – 07:35
Perhaps “streamlining” was an attempt to bring the new science of lowered wind resistance from planes, cars and even trains…. to the appearance of buses. We even had streamlined buildings, looking like ships. The fifties brought a new functionalism, but this, as you say, was lost on some municipalities, so intent on making a swish transition from the front of the bus to the sides… but wavy lines? I suppose it’s all a bit dorsal fin: but in 1935 that was in the future with vinyl, half tones, ads covering up windows and route branding….. at least we don’t paint the doors in fluorescent colours (much- or only the drivers?) …yet: but wait till the helfansafety experts get there.
Joe
06/04/13 – 16:45
As well as the Weymann bodied “streamline” AEC Regent in Leeds colours with a livery application very like the Sheffield one but in dark blue and turquoise Leeds also had a Roe bodied “streamline” bus at the same show. This too was painted Blue and turquoise but looked very different to the Weymann example with an almost tear drop shape and very stylised appearance.
We forget today how big an impact the railways had on style at the time both LNER and LMS were starting to run streamlined locos like the Gresley Pacifics and such styling was common in both Europe and the USA.
Chris Hough
07/04/13 – 07:53
Like many of us, I also abhor the meaningless modern vinyl “imaging” on today’s buses and applaud the attempts by some 1930s operators and builders to try to make their buses look “modern”. However, I can’t think of any instances where trams had these “go faster” liveries applied. Some, of course, didn’t need them as they were superbly designed to look modern (eg. Glasgow’s Coronations, Liverpool’s Green Goddesses, etc). The master of industrial design at this time was Raymond Loewy whose US company opened an office in London in the mid-30s. Did Weymann approach them I wonder?
Paul Haywood
07/04/13 – 07:55
Joe, OK they weren’t fluorescent but LT painted entrance doors on dual door buses yellow until late 80s(?), and in the run up to the formation of WYPTE Leeds painted Atlantean 447 and Swift 1065 in an experimental “Leeds District” livery incorporating yellow entrance doors and red exit doors.
The 30s streamlined liveries may not always have fitted the lives of the buses to which they were applied – but what I think makes them forgivable is that they were identifiably local/distinct, and they used strong/bold/deep colours unlike the flat and/or wishy-washy pastels used by two of the big groups today. But, picking-up on a point Alan made, I’ll stick my neck out and say that gold lining-out was just too fussy once rocker-panels had ceased to be a feature of bodywork.
Philip Rushworth
07/04/13 – 07:56
Joe Although not florescent London Transport painted entrance doors yellow for many years.
Chris Hough
07/04/13 – 09:52
Paul, I know I’m biased, but for me the mention of ‘modern-looking’ trams really has to start with the Sheffield Roberts ones.
Les Dickinson
07/04/13 – 16:54
Point taken, Les – yes, the Sheffield Roberts cars were smart indeed and I enjoyed riding on them in their final years, but for me, being four-wheelers, they lacked the majesty of the streamlined bogie cars. The whole 1930s period (before my time) fascinates me. For many, the sight of a streamlined tram or bus, or a visit to an art deco cinema, represented a vision of the future. We’ve all seen those early artists impressions of “How we will be living in twenty years” etc. where travel by monorail, gyrocopters and airships was assumed. When this bus was built, those visions would still be valid. The quest for increased speed on land, sea and air influenced designers throughout this period and this bus is a wonderful example.
Paul Haywood
07/04/13 – 16:54
I personally like the look of this bus. Did you notice the wind down windows. I only noticed these on a few Weymann AECs, (which also had a “booming” exhaust) on the 101 Arbourthorne route, climbing the very steep hill up East Bank Road, & some PD2s on the 69 route to Rotherham. The PD2s also had a complete destination & route number in the same big oblong route destination board. I have seen similar on other companies buses. They may be pre 1950s, with all Leyland bodies.
Andy Fisher
08/04/13 – 15:20
Andy, the PD2’s with the one destination box for route number and destination were the three so-called ‘stock sale’ PD2’s, that Leyland built on spec. for quick delivery to operators willing to forego their regular requirements such as standardized destination layouts in order to obtain buses quickly. The three that Sheffield managed to get, 601-3 (LWB 301-3), were put to work on the 69 service to Rotherham when it was decided not to relay the tramlines on the new road bridge at Tinsley, and thus abandoning for good the Sheffield-Rotherham tram service. The Sheffield trams ran no further than Vulcan Road after that, while the Rotherham single-enders ran only to Templeborough, and even they finished six months later, in November 1949.
City, Sheffield, Templeborough and Rotherham, with the applicable route numbers, were, I think, the only destinations that the trio had on their blinds, so they were more or less route-bound to the 69 or the 169 to Templeborough. A friend has told me that apparently one of them quite often showed up to run a ‘cinema-extra’ to Nether Edge late of an evening, when the picture houses were turning out (before the days of television!) before running into the garage after working on the 69 all day, but just what it showed on the blind I’m not certain. I’ve got a photo of one of them on a stand in Castlegate showing just ‘City’ in big letters, but I don’t know what route is would have been on.
Dave Careless
09/04/13 – 06:41
And while we’re on the theme of streamlining in the 1930’s, let’s not forget those Flying Bananas on the Great Western Railway. For a railway that remained strongly wedded to steam traction, this batch of AEC (and later BUT) engined diesel railbuses had a charm and character all of their own.
I know this is a bus blog, but I’m sorry, I couldn’t help myself from eulogising about these splendid rail buses !
Petras409
14/05/13 – 07:57
Andy. Only the first post war Regent III/Weymanns (527 – 536) had half drop windows. The others (1947/8) had sliders.
Petras409. Strictly speaking, DMUs had underframes built by BUT with engines supplied by either AEC or Leyland – and in a minority of cases Rolls Royce.
David Oldfield
14/05/13 – 17:22
BUT (British United Traction) was a joint sales organisation set up by AEC and Leyland for the purpose of supplying railway and trolleybus equipment, in order to give the companies a more realistic presence in what were quite limited markets. It was a similar arrangement to that of MCW, formed by the one-time totally independent companies of Metro-Cammell and Weymann.
As far as railway equipment goes, the BUT contribution was almost invariably engines and transmissions – but these were always proprietary (or suitably modified proprietary) items, BUT never having had any manufacturing plants. The engines supplied (for use in DMUs and railbuses) were manufactured by AEC, Leyland, or (in at least one instance) Albion – itself owned by Leyland at the time.
The exception to the above appears to concern early DMUs 79740-50, given as of BUT manufacture. If this is correct, the underframes and bodies must have been built somewhere (there were several likely locations within the Leyland or ACV – parent of AEC – groups). Oddly, Park Royal (itself part of ACV) supplied the bodies for some DMUs and railbuses, apparently independently of BUT.
As for Rolls-Royce engined DMUs, it may be that BUT was given the task of supplying the entire driveline and itself sourced the engines from Rolls-Royce – this is the impression given by the wording of current internet descriptions of the various DMU classes.
The supply of trolleybus chassis by BUT effectively continued the erstwhile AEC range, and trolleybus chassis building at Leyland was dropped.
As BUT was created in 1946, and the last GWR railbuses were constructed in 1942, it could not be said that there was any BUT input to the latter. The original engines were definitely of AEC manufacture, but replacement engines fitted later may well have been considered to be BUT, rather than AEC, products, of course.
David Call
19/05/13 – 15:28
Thanks for the update on the windows & route box. I am just an observer, not really knowledgeable. Now I have taken much more interest in researching Sheffield buses, I do appreciate your knowledge on these matters. You may find some of my comments a bit silly, but it is my lack of knowledge. I also do not come online that often, so you may not get an immediate thanks from me.
Andy Fisher
21/05/13 – 15:01
Following on from your information, I had a look in my tram book. The last tram from Sheffield to Rotherham was in 1948 , so presumably, these PD2s must have been of 1948 vintage. There was another PD2 all Leyland in the book, on another route. It had normal layout destination board, but with opening front upstairs windows. Can any of you people identify it for me please? I must confess to being an AEC fan, Leylands were not local untill the 1960 tram replacement tin fronts. That is unless we visited my auntie at Southy Green. The 97 & 98. They were also all Leylands. One had rounded ended opening lights, with interior lights covered in round, fluted lightshades, really smart. The other route was standard PD2s all Leyland design. They must have been 1940s buses, as it never was a tram route, so must have always been serviced by buses. I think the estate was built just after the war. Any help in identifying these busses would be appreciated.
Andy Fisher
22/05/13 – 07:21
The PD2s with opening windows would have been 656 – 667 – 1952 all Leyland PD2/10s. The three odd PD2s were indeed 1948 and doubly strange for being standard Leyland bodies in among Faringtons.
David Oldfield
24/05/13 – 14:04
Andy Fisher – regarding the smart interior lights with round fluted covers, I assume you mean like this – in this instance fitted in the preserved Crosville AEC Regal with Strachans body (seen here at the 2010 Kingsbridge running day). This sort of light fitting was also virtually universal on Trent’s many Willowbrook bodied double deckers.
Stephen Ford
25/05/13 – 08:26
In the main the engines supplied by BUT to power BR’s DMUs were horizontal versions of the AEC A221 of 11.3 litres or the Leyland 0680 of 11.1 litres. The transmission consisted of a fluid flywheel and a four speed Wilson epicyclic gearbox. These were very much ‘bus engineering’.
It’s not true to say that the formation of BUT as a marketing organisation for trolleybuses saw the end of Leyland based trolleybuses. Whilst the majority of home market trolleybuses were based on AEC designs that were closely allied to the contemporary Regent bus chassis (the six wheel BUT used the front end of the Regent Three in conjunction with an updated version of rear end of the pre-war 664T), Glasgow did receive single deck trolleybuses based on, I believe, the Royal Tiger chassis or its Worldmaster equivalent.
Michael Elliott
25/05/13 – 17:15
Thanks for the info guys. Yes Stephen those lightshades were indeed the ones I remember.
Andrew Fisher
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
13/10/15 – 06:11
With regard to the Petre Street routes 34 and 35, these originally were Nos. 17 and 10 just post war. Incidentally, Petre Street was/is pronounced ‘Peter’ by locals ! ‘Hunsley Street’was also featured on the destinations. The terminus at the Wesleyan Chapel was of interest due to the alleyway by the side of the stop having an ancient water pump on it, painted green if memory serves me right. The tramway these routes replaced terminated at Petre St./Carwood Road, around half a mile or so before the Wesleyan Chapel bus terminus. There was a fatal accident outside the Ellesmere Road school in the 50’s when a man threw himself under a city bound Regent III (I seem to remember that it was 567 ?)
Mike C
Copyright Unknown
Quite a few of Sheffield’s Regent 1 intake of 1937/8 with both original and rebuilt bodies survived up to around 1960 with the majority being withdrawn in the late 1940’s and early 1950’s. One such survivor was No. 27 registration DWB 27, a Weymann bodied H55R example. This machine was new in 1937 and survived until 1958 in original form. To achieve 21 years in normal service in Sheffield’s hilly terrain was no mean feat and unsurprisingly at the time of withdrawal, 27 was one of Sheffield’s oldest service buses albeit probably mainly used on peak time extras and school runs in later life.
Copyright John Darwent
More Regent 1 examples of a somewhat more modest lifespan were No. 357 registration EWB 657 and 353 registration EWB 653 both of 1938 vintage with Cravens H55R bodywork pictured here in 1953 at Sheffield Midland Station between duties. I am unsure whether 353 had been modernised in some way as there is a difference in appearance between the vehicles and I have another image of 353 showing sliding toplights on both decks of a later era than the drop down windows of other Cravens vehicles of the batch.
Photograph and Copy contributed by John Darwent
21/08/14 – 09:08
With the exception of the war-time Corporation (Queens Road) bodied Regents, these were the only pre-war Regents not bodied by Weymann. I was eight in 1960 but do not remember seeing any pre-war AECs in service – apart, possibly, from the Roe re-bodies. 657 is a Cravens in original condition, 653 at the very least has a modified front if not totally rebuilt.
This area in front of Midland Station was until the early 1950s used by C fleet routes (out of town) and possibly some B fleet as well. Buses awaiting service were parked, like 653 and 657, against the pavement which divided the area from the road.
David Oldfield
21/08/14 – 10:57
Lovely photos of the Regent I which always make my heart beat a little faster! Why is there a space fillet between body and rad on 27? Was a slightly shorter body fitted later or what? I imagine it wasn’t re-engined with a Gardner 6LW engine!!!
Photo 2 shows the typical unmatching front wings, so prevalent at this time! I also notice that the matching height headlamps lf 353 do not apply to 657.
Chris Hebbron
21/08/14 – 12:45
Sheffield continued to specify the 8.8 litre engines after the “7.7” had become standard. Maybe this explains the space fillet.
David Oldfield
21/08/14 – 15:28
Copyright Unknown
I think the radiator fillet was a general feature on all the Regent 1’s Chris, even the Roe rebuilds.
John Darwent
22/08/14 – 06:42
The extended bonnet as seen on these Sheffield Regents was standard for the 8.8 litre engine. This originally was the A165 indirect injection unit, but later, under pressure from the LPTB, became the A180 direct injection motor with Leyland style pot cavity pistons. The 6LW was even longer than the AEC 8.8, as may be seen on pictures of the London LT types and Huddersfield Regals so fitted. I suspect that the Sheffield examples were of the 8.8 indirect injection variety. Incidentally, I am intrigued by the picture of the two Regents parked side by side. How on earth did the driver of EWB 653 get out of the cab?
Roger Cox
22/08/14 – 08:20
Aye, there’s a bit of Sheffield black magic there, Roger.
The Roe re-build bodies replaced Cravens bodies – which were, I would guess, of suspect build quality. This might also explain the modification/rebuild of 653.
David Oldfield
22/08/14 – 18:11
Good point re the driver’s door Roger. I have examined the original photo taken with my highly unsophisticated Brownie 127 way back when and there is no trickery. Another photo of 353 reveals an ordinary opening door – no sliding conversion – of course, if the cab had similar characteristics to my old Austin Mini, then the driver could have exited through the floorpan!
John Darwent
22/08/14 – 18:11
Well, either he got out before EWB657 reversed into place (people sometimes do that to me in supermarket car parks!) – or, to misquote the famous Yorkshire tale, “Ee, ‘e were thin!”
Stephen Ford
23/08/14 – 16:32
Copyright Unknown
Here’s an eclectic selection of Sheffield Corporation gems dominated by Regent 1’s, seen on the Pond Street bus park in the early 50’s.
Featuring;
306 – 1938 Regent 1/Weymann CWJ 406
471 – 1941 Regent 1/Northern Counties HWA 51
496 – 1944 Daimler CWA6/Duple
4 – 1938 All Leyland TD5c EWJ 304
438 – 1940 Regent 1/Weymann GWE 658
474 – 1942 All Leyland TD7 HWA 384
John Darwent
29/08/14 – 15:25
I used to live by Brammall Lane, but went to school at Anns Rd. Heeley. To go to school I had a choice of 33 Hemsworth, (Regent 3 Cravens bodywork), 34 Graves Park, (Regent 3 Northern Coachbuilders), 35 Hollythorpe Rise, (Regent 3 Weymann). All had pre selector gearbox.
However, there was a duplicate route 36 to Heeley Green. This was the original route of 1913, extended to Graves Park in 1926. You could have single, double decker’s or lowdeckers, pre or post war. It did not have a destination name, as these were all removed in WW2, & after that, there was no such route.
The reason I loved this route so much, was it had to make a steep hill start at Anns Road stop. If it was not a pre selector box but a crash box, I would stay on the bus to Heeley Green. They would set off in 1st, but by the time they engaged 2nd,the bus had come to a stop. They then repeated the process many times to get to the top of the hill. I chuckled inside, many of the conductors also, as the driver got more & more frustrated. It made me late for school. Of course I blamed the buses for making me late, but it was worth it.
Would someone explain how the pre selector box works please?
Andy Fisher
29/08/14 – 15:28
Andy To start with try this. it may be a bit slow to load.
Peter