Tag: Willowbrook

Coventry Corporation – Leyland Atlantean – CDU 348B – 348

Coventry Corporation - Leyland Atlantean - CDU 348B - 348Coventry Corporation - Leyland Atlantean - CDU 348B - 348

Coventry Corporation
1965
Leyland Atlantean PDR1/2
Willowbrook H44/32F

This is one of a batch of 22 very contentious Leyland Atlanteans with Willowbrook H44/32F bodies delivered to Coventry Transport in January 1965, the issue being that they were Leylands delivered to the home city of Daimler who since the war had been almost the only supplier of buses to the company. The order may have been made to apply some pressure to Daimler for some reason which appears to have been successful as a similar batch of Fleetlines with near identical bodies were delivered within six months these were followed by more Fleetlines with ECW and then East Lancs bodies until the mid seventies, I think one of the Atlanteans appeared at the 1964 Earls Court show.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave

20/07/14 – 17:32

In Commercial Motor magazine dated 11th September 1964 the following report was published.

cov_atl

“Leyland Motors Ltd. has introduced a new version of the Atlantean rear-engined chassis which is fitted with a drop-centre rear axle, permitting a straight-through, stepless gangway in the lower saloon.
Delivery is now being made to Coventry Corporation of 22 buses of this type, fitted with 76-seat bodies by Willowbrook Ltd. Overall height of the new vehicles is 14 ft. 0 in. unladen, 4 in, less than the normal ‘highbridge’ Atlantean, yet ample headroom is still provided in each saloon.
One of Coventry’s new Atlanteans will be shown on the Willowbrook stand at the Commercial Motor Show, and several other examples employing the new chassis will also be seen. Side and front elevations of the new Willowbrook bodied Atlantean are shown in the accompanying drawing. Ample luggage space is a feature of this body.”

Stephen Howarth

21/07/14 – 07:26

Dave, if your theory is correct then the issue with Daimler may well have been price. I have heard that Salford’s change of allegiance from Daimler to Leyland in 1963 was for that reason, although they of course never went back.

Peter Williamson

21/07/14 – 07:27

Could the idea be sold in Coventry, then, Stephen, because the Atlanteans had Daimler running gear and the great BL meltdown had begun? Or am I wrong?
These do look like uglibus candidates- I haven’t seen one, but Yorkshire Traction had some…. www.flickr.com/photos/  
The glass fibre fronts & domes look like add on body kits. Interestingly the Coventry examples look distinctly under ventilated, whilst Tracky go to the other extreme.

Joe

21/07/14 – 07:29

These Atlanteans were of the newly introduced PDR1/2 model which was fitted with a Daimler dropped centre rear axle and gearbox, which was intended to facilitate lowheight bodywork without the need for a sunken side gangway at the rear, which was a feature of early lowbridge Atlanteans based on the PDR1/1 model. I don’t think Coventry had any need of lowbridge vehicles, but the inclusion of Daimler components would have standardisation benefits when the fleet later included Fleetlines. Presumably this was always the intention. Manchester Corporation also bought the PDR1/2 model (132 of them) alongside their 130 Fleetlines with MCW “Orion” bodies. I always thought these had a rather odd mixture of sound effects.
Many years later, I would drive Daimler Fleetlines with Leyland Engines (bought by Crosville from Southdown) which felt more like Atlanteans than Fleetlines, the engine sound on these tended to dominate the gearbox sound. These buses also had direct air gearchange and a step from the platform to the lower deck – both “Atlanteanish” features.
I thought these Willowbrook bodies were a very attractive design, enhanced by the Coventry livery. They introduced a more conventionally shaped service number blind, after years of the rather odd arrangement with equally sized and shaped destination and service number screens.

Don McKeown

21/07/14 – 15:21

At the time of the order Daimler was an independent company that was part of the Jaguar group along with Guy. At the time Leyland Motors was a very profitable concern it all went pear shaped after the shot gun marriage between them and BMC in the late sixties. Although Leyland were already being starting to give the industry what they wanted and not the other way round.

Chris Hough

21/07/14 – 15:28

When Coventry issued the tender for this order, they specified a low floor design, presumably thinking that only Daimler could deliver such a vehicle. However Leyland, no doubt spotting the opportunity to sell to Daimler’s home city hastily put together their own low floor design. They won the order on price but delivery was delayed by development problems. This is not the livery that these buses carried at delivery. The maroon was originally only applied to the lower skirt, a band above the lower windows, another below the upper windows and the roof. The destination blinds also differed, as shown on the blueprint image.

John McSparron

22/07/14 – 06:53

The Yorkshire Traction vehicle shown in the link above was one of four that were diverted from a Devon General order, indeed they entered service in Devon General livery and ran in that form for some time.
Before eventually finishing up in the nondescript NBC colours shown in the photo they did run in traditional YTC Livery of BET crimson and light cream, a combination that really suited this bodywork.

Andrew Charles

22/07/14 – 06:54

Most sources say that although the PDR1/2 did have a Daimler gearbox, the drop-centre rear axle was the Albion Lowlander unit rather than the one from the Fleetline.
With regard to the odd sound effects in Manchester, the only engine officially offered in the PDR1/2 was the O600, since the Daimler gearbox, at that early stage in its history, couldn’t take the extra torque of the O680 in Atlantean fettle. However, Manchester wanted O680 engines for durability rather than extra power, and specified a specially derated version at 130bhp. This may account for their subdued and breathy engine note, which allowed the gearbox to sing more prominently than in some other applications.

Peter Williamson

I am sure that Peter W is correct that the PDR1/2 was fitted with a Daimler (‘Daimatic’) gearbox, but not axle.
Further to Don McK, I don’t recall that the inclusion of a Daimler gearbox in the PDR1/2 was a consideration in the decision to buy it – the decision was based solely upon a significantly lower tender price from Leyland, and, even then, the order was placed only after furious council debate.
I’ve always presumed that Leyland deliberately tendered low in order to capitalise on the potential publicity, and this it certainly did – for several months, for instance, there was a standing advertisement on the rear cover of ‘Buses Illustrated’, the message of which was ‘Coventry, home to the British motor industry, chooses Leyland..’, or words to that effect. Leyland did, at least, acknowledge that Coventry, and not Leyland, was home to the British motor industry, and its advertising strategy seems to have failed to impress, since I think the Fleetline comfortably outsold the PDR1/2, the latter proving problematic.

David Call

25/07/14 – 12:19

This style of body by Willowbrook had a very long life it was used as late as 1976 to re-body a bus damaged in the Derby depot fire.

Chris Hough

26/07/14 – 06:42

I would challenge the theory that the Daimler gearbox in the Atlantean PDR1/2 could not cope with the torque of the O.680 engine. At that time, the standard Atlantean setting for the O.680 was 150 bhp at 2000 rpm, with a maximum torque of 485 lb ft at 1000 rpm. The corresponding figures for the contemporary 6LX were 150 bhp at 1700 rpm, and 485 lb ft torque at 1050 rpm. Thus the Gardner delivered identical output at rather lower rpm. Any derating of the O.680 in the Atlantean PDR1/2 must have been undertaken for economy reasons, bearing in mind that the Leyland engine required an extra 300 rpm to produce the same power as the Gardner. Reducing the governed speed of the O.680 to 1700 rpm would have reduced the output to 130 bhp.

Roger Cox

27/07/14 – 06:41

I don’t think any early Fleetlines had 6LXs rated at 150bhp. Manchester’s were rated at 132bhp, presumably with a corresponding reduction in torque, and I thought at the time that that was the standard Fleetline rating. But if the reduction in the O.680’s power was taken care of by simply lowering the governed speed, then I agree that there would be no reduction in torque there.
The idea that the PDR1/2 wasn’t offered with the O.680 option must have come from somewhere, and the Daimler gearbox certainly was strengthened before the CRL6 Fleetline came on the market. Perhaps someone just put two and two together and created a bit of folklore.

Peter Williamson

08/10/15 – 07:13

Talk about being late to the party!
According to “The Leyland Bus Mk2” (D. Jack) page 325, the O.680 engine was “not available in the PDR1/2, owing to torque limitations on the rear axle”. The same page confirms it carried the Lowlander rear axle.

Allan White

09/10/15 – 07:18

Better late than never, Allan. All is resolved, I think.

Peter Williamson

20/10/15 – 09:07

CDU 354B

The attached photo shows another of the batch 354, CDU 354B in an unusual location at the rear of PMT Clough Street depot in Hanley (note the broken down PMT lowbridge Atlantean in the background.)
The reason was that PMT had recently installed a Dawson ‘Cyclone’ bus interior cleaner at Hanley Depot in an attempt to improve and speed up nightly interior cleaning. The unit was a massive vacuum cleaner with a bellows which was pushed out to the bus entrance by pneumatic rams, it was switched on and hey presto all the loose rubbish within the bus was sucked into the cleaner. A man with an air lance entered by the emergency door and agitated the less willing items of rubbish into the air stream. Coventry were interested in the concept and on 25th March 1971 sent up 354 (maybe with the previous days rubbish still on the bus??) to see how it performed. As the vacuum plant was situated immediately before the bus wash, a trip through the wash was necessary hence the photo.

Ian Wild

21/10/15 – 06:37

Brilliant, Ian!

Pete Davies

23/10/15 – 06:28

It was a long time ago Pete and I can’t remember how reliable the machine was. It can’t have been exclusive to PMT, does anyone know of other Operators who had one? I do recall that we had to cut apertures at odd places inside the buses eg at floor level in the offside partition at the top of the staircase. It can’t have been much fun inside the bus in a force 8 gale!! I don’t recall losing any seat cushions…..

Ian Wild

23/10/15 – 16:37

Trent Motor Traction at Meadow Road Derby, and United Automobile Services had them. Whether this was at all Depots I do not know.
Malcolm Hitchin MBE in his book ‘Keep the Wheels Turning’, recounting his 50 years in Trent engineering, mentions, that very early on after having the system installed, that, if they did not open the emergency door, before starting the vacuum, then it was possible that the pressure from the vacuum could suck in the bus windows.

Stephen Howarth

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

12/11/15 – 14:23

Think these units actually had a self changing gear semi automatic box not a Daimatic.
Reason for the purchase of Leylands was that Daimler thinking they had a monopoly put in a price and refused to negotiate even when Leyland put the lower price in. There was much heated debate in the Council Transport Committee meetings and when the order was placed with Leyland there was a lot of aggressive words from Daimler Trade Unions. The follow-on order for Daimlers was placed before the Leylands were delivered.
I made it a task to ride on all the vehicles from both batches and upstairs they had for Coventry 3 single seats behind each other on the nearside.
Willowbrook did not make a good job of the body with lots of water ingress from very early on manifesting itself in brown streaks across the upside dome.
Body vibration was much more pronounced on the Leylands and from both batches I remember being stranded with linkage failures to the engine from the semi gearbox which I presume was pneumatic pipes working loose.
Full buses in rush hour running every 6 minutes dumping a full load in between stops was not a great experience for getting to school on time.
I ended up switching routes to one which had rear loaders just for reliability and avoiding of school detentions

Roger Burdett

Harper Bros – Guy Arab LUF – 1292 RE – 58


Copyright Ray Soper

Harper Bros
19??
Guy Arab LUF
Willowbrook Viking C??F

This shot is from the Ray Soper gallery contribution titled “Harper Brothers of Heath Hayes” click on the title if you would like to view his Gallery and comments to it.
The shot is shown here for indexing purposes but please feel free to make any comment regarding this vehicle either here or on the gallery.

Northern General had a batch of Willowbrook Vikings but I cant remember if they were AEC’s or Tiger Cub’s, but they suffered the indignity of having the fronts chopped off, and bus fronts being fitted, the older Fanfare’s were left in tacked

Ronnie Hoye

27/09/11 – 06:47

I believe this would have been a unique combination, of course Black & White Motorways had Guy Arab LUF’s with the earlier style of Willowbrook coach body and although the Viking was never particularly numerous, I cant think of any others on Guy apart from Harpers.

Chris Barker

12/01/13 – 06:19

I understand the pair of Guy Arabs with Willowbrook bodywork are for sale in Ireland, at a very reasonable price. If I had a few grand to buy, bring and restore this pair of coaches, I’d have a very attractive fleet. Hope someone has the cash and the knowledge.

Graeme Fisher

18/01/13 – 06:13

Hi Graeme, they are for sale in Ireland for £1500 each + shipping costs + Low Loaders but both are in very poor condition, they would cost a small fortune to restore, here is a couple of links if you would like to see how they have been treated. www.flickr.com/photos/one and ww.flickr.com/photos/two
not a bit like when I had the pleasure of driving them.

Phil Burton

18/01/13 – 08:16

Very sad.

Chris Hebbron

13/08/14 – 10:50

The good news is the two Guy Arab Luf’s have been rescued from Ireland and are now at Aston Manor to hopefully be restored & returned to their former glory

Phil Burton

13/08/14 – 18:20

Let’s hope a better price was negotiated than the inflated one above. Good luck to Aston Manor Museum.

Chris Hebbron

29/12/15 – 06:44

I think that at end 2015 one of these two was being worked on by volunteers at Aston Manor decision being to make one good from two. Suspect however as always work is concentrated on one or two individuals so progress is understandably slow

Roger Burdett

30/12/15 – 06:29

I recall, at a visit a couple of years ago, that Aston Manor already had a restored Guy Arab LUF with SARO body. To have two, or possibly three, would be amazing! See here: www.bus-and-coach-photos.com/

Chris Hebbron

30/12/15 – 06:30

On the flickr page linked to by Phil B it isn’t immediately obvious that the ‘Ashbourne’ referred to is in County Meath, Republic of Ireland, not Derbyshire.

David Call

WMPTE ex-Walsall Corporation – Dennis Loline – 885 LDH – 885

WMPTE ex-Walsall Corporation - Dennis Loline - 885 LDH - 885

WMPTE/ex-Walsall Corporation
1960
Dennis Loline II YF10
Willowbrook H44/30F

On 1st October 1969 the Corporation bus fleets of Birmingham, West Bromwich, Walsall and Wolverhampton were absorbed into the newly formed West Midlands Passenger Transport Executive.
Due largely to the famously eclectic tastes of its innovative and renowned former General Manager, Mr. R. Edgley Cox, members of the Walsall fleet were varied and interesting, if not (in my opinion) always very attractive.
This photo of a former Walsall bus was taken in late 1970 on an enthusiasts’ visit. It shows a Dennis Loline II with Willowbrook H44/30F body, new in 1960.

Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer

09/03/14 – 16:27

Walsall buses are intriguing. Always seems to be great attention to detail. I remember being struck by them when visiting for a job in the 60s. I assume that the 3 indentations on the front upper corner are accidental, but what is the cowl or cover above the bonnet/radiator on the nearside front and the access flap around the corner on the nearside? Did Mr Cave Brown Cave have a competitor?

Joe

17/03/14 – 07:42

Dennis used completely different chassis designations for the Loline I and II in comparison with the later Loline III. Although the sales literature originally included the Dennis 8 litre 120 bhp engine as an option, in practice no Lolines were built with this power plant. Corrections and additions to the notes below would be welcome.
Y1 This was used for all Loline I models, 30ft long with rear entrances and conventionally sprung rear axles. The two for Leigh were powered by Gardner 6LX engines, but all others had the 6LW engine. The biggest batch went to Aldershot and District who specified the five speed gearbox, which was the standard fitment. Those for Leigh, Lancashire United and Middlesborough had four speed gearboxes.
YF1 All Loline IIs were 30ft long except where shown otherwise. The ‘F’ indicated front entrance. Designation YF1 was applied to the Walsall example 600 DDH that was effectively the Loline II prototype. It had a Gardner 6LW engine, a Dennis (five speed?) constant mesh gearbox and a conventionally sprung rear axle.
YF2 The production Walsall model, similar in specification to the prototype, but this, and all subsequent Loline IIs, had air suspension for the rear axle.
YF3 North Western batch with Leyland O600 engine and Dennis (five speed?) gearbox.
YF4 As YF3, but with de-rated Gardner 6LX engine (some sources suggest that the engine was the 6LW, but Dennis expert Robin Hannay confirms the 6LX).
YF5 Version for Luton, 27ft 8ins long with Leyland O600 engine and Dennis four speed gearbox.
YF6 The Middlesborough batch, Gardner 6LW engine and four speed gearbox.
YF7 These City of Oxford buses were 27ft 8ins long and were powered by AEC AV 470 engines through five speed gearboxes.
YF8 Not used. Was it a cancelled order, perhaps?
YF9 This emerged as the Loline III demonstrator, EPG 179B, with the new chassis designation L3AF1E1. Powered by a Gardner 6LX engine through a four speed semi automatic SCG gearbox, it was originally intended for the China Motor Bus Company, but it has been said that it never got there for reasons that are still obscure.
YF10 The final Walsall machine, shown in John’s picture above, was given this designation, though the differences from the earlier batch are unclear.
YF11 This is the very well known, unique, lowbridge Barton machine, equipped with a Leyland O600 engine and a five speed gearbox. In later life it suffered the supreme indignity of being fitted with an AEC radiator grille of the Regent Mk V variety. I believe (and fervently hope) that this injustice has since been righted in preservation.
The first two production Loline III buses went to Leigh Corporation, and, because these were of rear entrance layout, Dennis rather surprisingly gave them the chassis designation Y2 consistent with the early Y1 Mark I series. All other Loline IIIs had front entrances and were given L3 type chassis codes.

Roger Cox

S Bingley – Dennis Lancet – CRE 938


Copyright Unknown

S Bingley (Hemsworth)
1935
Dennis Lancet I
Willowbrook C37F

Dennis Lancet I, chassis number 171027, was bodied by Willowbrook (2830) and seated thirty-seven passengers. It was new in 1935 and was operated by Associated Bus Companies Ltd (formed in 1928 of several local independents) prior to the acquisition of that company by Potteries Motor Traction in 1944. PMT withdrew it from service in 1946 and in April that year it was with S.Bingley, Hemsworth, eventually scrapped by Crossroads Commercials of Leeds in May 1956.
Did S Bingley have any connection with W R & P Bingley of United Services?

Photograph and Copy contributed by Les Dickinson

13/07/15 – 06:23

Given that the most common capacities of the time seem to have been 33 seats in coaches and 35 in single deck buses, 37 coach seats must have been very cramped!

Chris Barker

13/07/15 – 17:01

These Lancet I’s suffered from very heavy-looking radiator shells, unlike the equivalent 1935 Lance rads. It rather spolit the look of them.

Chris Hebbron

13/07/15 – 17:01

Perhaps the cramped seating was one reason why Potteries withdrew an eleven year-old vehicle at a time of severe post-war vehicle shortages? The driving cab also looks very fore-shortened leaving the front of the bonnet some way ahead of it.

David Wragg

15/07/15 – 05:59

I, too, am surprised by the large seating capacity. The Lancet I, which appeared on the market in 1931, had a very bulky and deep radiator shell that was shared by the heavier Dennis haulage models of that time, and the cab front was set behind this cowl. The front wings were swept forward in a manner later adopted by wartime Guy Arabs, and these ‘extensions’ were joined across the front by a kind of bumper bar. All this space inefficient front end had to be accommodated within the overall length of 27ft 6ins, which did not allow for a great capacity within the rest of the bodywork. The later Lancet II of 1935 remedied this shortcoming by having a very slim radiator shell mounted at the extreme front, and this was offset to the nearside to maximise driving cab space. Lancet IIs could be fitted with bodywork seating up to 39 passengers. The Lancet I and II were powered by the Dennis 6.79 litre ‘Big Four’ petrol engine that could be rated up to 97 bhp, a very compact and reliable design employing wet cylinder liners. Versions fitted with the ‘O’ type five speed gearbox could attain 58 mph, so the petrol Lancet was no sluggard. From 1934 the advanced O4 diesel was offered as an option in the Lancet II.

Roger Cox

15/07/15 – 15:25

I’d noticed to ‘Guy’ likeness to the wings, myself, Roger.
Pre-war wet-liner engines never seemed to suffer from the same problems as post-war ones did.

Chris Hebbron

15/07/15 – 19:07

You’re referring to the AEC wet liner debacle, Chris. AEC never did solve its wet liner problems, but the responsibility lay with the Southall firm, not with the wet liner concept. Dennis were engineers of a very high order, and knew how to get it right. The post war Dennis O6 diesel, like the earlier O4, was a wet liner engine with the timing gears situated at the rear of the crankcase, yet both of these design features were regarded with disfavour in some quarters following the shortcomings of AEC (wet liners) and Daimler and Meadows (rear timing gears). The Dennis O4 and O6 also employed four valves per cylinder, the only British production engines to be so equipped. The O6 was an outstanding engine, and installed in the Lancet III, was taken up enthusiastically by many small independent operators who valued its total dependability, notwithstanding its advanced specification.

Roger Cox

16/07/15 – 05:38

Amazing that AEC never cured the liner problem.
Renault cars in the 60/70’s had wet liners and I had two cars with them, as did a friend. They were no problem, but the timing chains were another thing. Poor tensioners and these were rear engines put at the front, so that the timing chains were then at the back. My friend with a Renault 16 cut a hole in the front bulkhead to sort out his, then put a plate back over the hole! Post-war Daimler bus also had rear timing chains, difficult to access without removing the engine. The few D’s with them were removed and replaced by surplus AEC 7.7’s within five years.

Chris Hebbron

18/07/15 – 06:23

An early Lancet I, albeit a Short B32F bodied bus rather than a coach, has, thankfully, been preserved. It was new, probably in 1932, to Smith’s of Westoning in Bedfordshire, a firm taken over by Seamarks of Dunstable. In June 1937 it was sold to K W Services, Daventry who ran it until 1944. In 1946 it became a caravan at Snodland in Kent until 1974 when it was bought for preservation. Apparently, this bus still has no electric starter, and has to be swung by hand! A picture may be found here:- https://www.flikr.com/photos/cheltonian1966/19456538949/

Roger Cox

18/07/15 – 06:24

It would appear that S Bingley died in 1968 and the firm was taken over by Pembertons coaches. There seems to have been an approach by W. R & P Bingley for a license to run some of the coach excursions. However the Traffic Commisioners refused the application due to the fact Pembertons were in final talks with Mr Bingleys widow to take over the coach company. Further information is listed on: //archive.commercialmotor.com/
Pemberton who were based at Upton nr Pontefract I think were absorbed into Welsh’s Coaches who operate from the same depot.

Brian Lunn

20/07/15 – 09:48

Thanks for that link Brian. I guess there was no existing family link or Pembertons would not have got a foot in the door in the first place.

Les Dickinson

16/12/15 – 07:27

Further to Chris Hebbron’s reference to timing chains at the rear of the Daimler CD6 and CD650 engines, that’s not the case, like the Dennis O6 and I believe the Meadows 6DC630 the timing was supplied by a gear train, there is further detail in “A Further Look At Buses” by G. G.Hillditch.

Stephen Allcroft

17/12/15 – 07:39

Gardner’s 15.5 litre 6LYT engine broke new ground for the Company in having a rear-mounted timing gear train, rather than Gardner’s traditional triplex timing chain mounted at the front. The Leyland 500-Series engines as fitted to the Leyland National I, New Zealand Bristol RELLs and quite a number of Bristol VRT3s also had rear-mounted timing gear trains.

Brendan Smith

The preserved Smith’s of Westoning Lancet is now fitted with an electric starter. My 1935 ex-Southern Vectis one was always fitted with a starter but one should not over-estimate their effectiveness. They would start a vehicle with a warm engine, maybe even one that had had been garaged overnight, but were never suitable for a completely cold start. For that you needed somebody in the cab and somebody helping on the handle. I have seen other marques of vehicle that were similar.
For the record there is of course no such thing as a “Lancet 1” – in their time they were just “Lancet”. The assumed designation only came about when the Mk2 arrived.

John H

25/06/17 – 09:26

Yes, the original Lancet was just that, like the original Arab, Regent and Regal, and, in the private car world, the Cortina amongst many others. The retrospective application of the appellation ‘1’ or ‘Mark 1’ does clarify the model being discussed. I suppose that, if one wished to be totally accurate, the term ‘1935 Lancet’ should be employed here, but that wouldn’t work either because the Lancet II came out in that same year. Adopting the form Lancet (1), Regal (1) etc seems unnecessarily pedantic to my mind. I should think that only in the military aircraft field would ‘Mark 1’ be used from the start, and then not always.

Roger Cox

Luton Corporation – Daimler COG5 – CNM 43 – 68

Copyright John Barringer

Luton Corporation Transport
1938
Daimler COG5
Willowbrook L26/26R

Probably the only surviving picture of fleet number 68 registration CNM 43 chassis number 10337 taken just after withdrawal in 1952. Luton Corporation Transport purchased a fleet of Daimlers in the early 1930’s to replace the tramway system that had served the town for a number of years. I suppose the thinking was that ex tram drivers would be able to come to terms much easier with semi automatic pre-selector gearboxes and fluid flywheels than the crash gearboxes offered by other manufacturers. These were mated to Gardner 5LW engines which on the face of it seemed rather small to haul these machines up the steep inclines each side of Luton town. Many of these old Daimlers soldiered on into the 1950’s despite sketchy wartime servicing and the Luton bus garage receiving a direct hit from a Nazi bomb.
The low bridge Willowbrook coachwork had much character with the unusual feature of an upstairs with one gangway each side of a raised dais giving each bench seat only three places instead of the usual four. This meant that whichever side you sat downstairs you would still risk banging your head.
The drivers cabs were also a bit claustrophobic and had a small box section let into the roof to accommodate tall drivers.
For some reason the Gardner 5LW engines were much quieter in these compared to the Eastern National Bristol’s that also ran into Luton. Perhaps the fluid flywheel had a cushioning effect or maybe they had flexible engine mounts. In any case one characteristic of the Bristol’s was that each window would vibrate in turn as the engine revs gathered pace.
One notorious hill that tested these Daimlers to their limit was Crawley Green Hill to the east of Luton. I worked for Vauxhall Motors in the 1950’s and would sometimes wait at the top of this hill to catch a bus to Stopsley. The water supply in Luton contains a high proportion of chalk and no doubt this was used to top up their radiators. This resulted in a well laden bus boiling at about halfway up this hill and the driver having to switch on his wipers to clear the screen of condensed water. You will notice that number 68 has the engine side panel leaning against the wing in the time honoured way to give an extra cooling effect. Despite this the drivers cab would be writhed in steam at the top and a short wait would be required to cool them down.
At tick over and in neutral they would emit a ‘wind in the willows’ whine that would stop abruptly as first gear was engaged. As the driver put his foot down the bus would shake slightly as the fluid drive began to bite and to the sound of creaking coachwork the bus would slowly move forward like a dowager duchess perambulating at a garden party.
Happy days!

Photograph and Copy contributed by John Barringer

A full list of Daimler codes can be seen here.

Bus tickets issued by this operator can be viewed here.

17/02/11 – 08:59

I love John’s wonderful literary description of the characteristics of these most interesting vehicles – a batch which, incidentally, I’ve never encountered before. While three window upper saloon windscreens were fairly common before WW2, this particular arrangement is most unusual and has the suggestion of the bay windows in many houses. The phenomenon of “each window vibrating in turn” was also frequently evident in the Leyland TS and TD diesel models, particularly when setting off in second gear. Sadly there are few, if any, such controlled acoustic delights in today’s “sophisticated” offerings.

Chris Youhill

17/02/11 – 09:49

Come on, Chris. Yorkshire folk tell it as it is.
…..in today’s characterless sewing machines!

David Oldfield

18/02/11 – 07:27

John Barringer Great to see these old photos surfacing even when not my ‘location’ I must explore more of the website.
Thanks for this one.

Ian Gibbs

18/02/11 – 07:29

A very evocative description that takes me back, too! Luton dabbled with Willowbrook bodywork for much of the 1930’s, but these were the last of the breed. They all went between 1950 and 1954. The double gangway certainly restricted the seating capacity, the full code being L26/26R!
I’d say that these buses were about the last of the bay-windowed breed, too, although Dublin were still ordering such fronted buses in the late 1940’s, if not a little later. Personally, I rather liked this style of front.
The Bovril adverts are ones I’ve never seen before, and don’t make outrageous claims, either!

Chris Hebbron

18/02/11 – 07:30

I’m very pleased to see this as I was about to post a question regarding pre-war Willowbrook bodies with the upper deck arrangement which John describes. In an article about Mansfield Independents in Buses Extra in 1985, Roy Marshall recalls that Ebor had some of these, with a continuous sunken gangway which allowed the conductor to work round the top deck in a circle. Now, try as I might, I just cannot imagine how this was configured, how would it have been continued under the front canopy or over the rear platform? Do any plans or diagrams or even photos exist? In the same article, Mr Marshall mentions that Trumans of Shirebrook bought a Guy Arab in 1946 and fitted it with a 1931 Park Royal lowbridge body on which the sunken gangway had been built up to normal height forward of the front bulkhead to meet postwar certification regulations, an accompanying photo clearly shows the area above the cab and canopy screened off by a series of handrails. My point is that on every lowbridge vehicle I’ve ever been on, the sunken gangway stops at the front bulkhead (i.e. back of the cab). Even if pre-war construction and use regulations allowed different, how would the driver get into the cab and surely driving would have been well nigh impossible! Did any other coachbuilders have a go at this layout or was it unique to Willowbrook?

Chris Barker

18/02/11 – 10:42

Interesting that 1937 Thames Valley Leyland double deckers had a 3-panel “bay window” upstairs at the front, but were bodied by Brush, years before any business connection with Willowbrook. The small outer windows of the Brush version were less angled than those on the Luton deckers. The TV buses had a conventional single sunken gangway, but I’m fascinated to see that Willowbrook used a double gangway as late as ’37!
Chris Barker’s question exactly echoes one that’s been niggling me for years: how did you get from one gangway to the other??? A cross-gangway immediately behind the front bulkhead (front passengers downstairs Mind Your Heads!) would make sense, though it would entail a long circular tour for anyone nearside rear, but the view of seat-tops in the few surviving photos of double-gangway double deckers suggests otherwise. Another possibility might be to drop the last eighteen inches of the downstairs gangway, just aft of the axle, to platform level, so as to afford headroom for a cross-gangway upstairs over the platform, immediately forward of the stairs. This way everyone not sitting would get their allotted 5’10 1/2″ of headroom, though tall folk would need to be careful as they boarded the platform. But here again the pictures don’t point to that solution. John Cupis, a friend who spent his childhood at Staines, Middlesex, tells me that on the London lowbridge STs there was a gap in front of the rearmost seat upstairs to allow you to cross between gangways, but that “you had to stoop” as you crossed.
The Luton top decks look to be built as far forward over the cab as possible, presumably to accommodate the 9 rows of seats necessary to get 26 upper-deck seats.
Thanks for the photo and detailed account of this very unusual and characterful batch. Luton Corporation always seemed to go for something different!

Ian Thompson

18/02/11 – 11:35

A rare commodity indeed was the BET “Federation” style double decker. Single deckers were common, but there were few double deckers, the 3 window front top deck being a feature.
Common with East Yorkshire, built by Brush and ECW. Also Thames Valley?
YWD had a few. Who else?
The Willowbrook body here has more of a bay window effect, as Chris points out, but perhaps was influenced by the BET ideas, although by no means a regular Willowbrook feature.

John Whitaker

19/02/11 – 06:47

That front upper-deck window seems particularly appropriate to the symmetrical double-gangway layout. Front seat passengers must indeed have felt as if they were sitting on a sofa looking through a bay window!
The Daimler COG was years ahead of its time in terms of refinement. They did indeed have flexible engine mountings, and John’s description (apart from the creaking bodywork) could equally well apply to a Daimler CVG built many years later. Manchester bought COGs and CVGs from 1940 to 1963, and there was hardly any difference in the riding experience at all.

Peter Williamson

20/02/11 – 08:21

I’m grateful to John Cupis for sending me photos, taken 60-odd years ago by the late John C. Gilham, of London Transport lowbridge STs, both outside and INSIDE! To read the rest of my comment and see the great shots click here.

Ian Thompson

25/05/11 – 06:33

I suspect that this vehicle was already being used for spares as it has already lost one headlight. Did these buses ever have the engine side panel closed. I can imaging some of the drivers cursing the 5LW engine on Crawley Green as not only is it very steep, it is also lengthy and had a bus stop at the foot. A dead start on a Saturday lunch time outbound with a full load of seated passengers and probably another half dozen standing would mean 5 minutes climbing in first gear with speed probably in single figures.

David Manning

25/05/11 – 16:58

The pre-selector boxes made a wonderful, tuneful sound with variation of pitch, especially on overrun: and when stationary, they would have a distinctive “hunt” as a reminder to get a move on!

Joe

26/05/11 – 07:29

Joe, unless I’m mistaken (I’m no engineer) I believe that the delightful symphony while standing, and it WAS delightful – in neutral – emanated from the fluid flywheel rather than from the preselctor gearbox.

Chris Youhill

27/05/11 – 08:40

I’m sure you are right Chris- I should have said “transmission”!

Joe

05/08/13 – 17:48

My father worked as a conductor for many years with Luton Corporation buses he received a gold watch for 25yr service but died shortly after receiving it.

Walter Gunning

Blue Bus Services – Daimler COG5-40 – GNU 750


Copyright Ken Jones

Blue Bus Services
1939
Daimler COG5-40
Willowbrook C35F

GNU 750 is a Daimler COG5-40 (8485) with Willowbrook (3208) C35F body, and dates from 1939. It is preserved in the livery of Blue Bus Services (Tailby & George) who were based at Willington in Derbyshire. You’ll find more history on this company at Stephen Howarths website.

The above site includes this paragraph
Since the untimely deaths of their spouses in 1955 & 1958 respectively, the company had been run by Mr. Tailby & Mrs. George. Percy Tailby died in 1956 leaving Katherine George as sole proprietor until her death in 1965. Tailby & George Ltd. then passed to Douglas & Bunty Marshall, the latter being the daughter of the Tailbys. By the 1970’s public transport was in a state of serious decline. The railways had been decimated by Beeching and the majority of the bus industry was either nationalised (i.e. Trent) or in the hands of the local council, as in Derby and Burton. Small independent companies like Tailby & George faced fierce competition from the bigger companies. On 1st December 1973, the then proprietors of the company,
Mr. & Mrs. Marshall made the decision to retire. After much speculation the operation of the Blue Bus Service passed from Tailby & George Ltd to the Derby Corporation.

This vehicle was part of The Quantock Motors collection but Stephen Morris is down sizing and selling many of his vehicles. This one was for sale in June 2011 for £25,000. It has been sold to Lithuania. You can see pictures of it in Lithuania here //fotobus.msk.ru/ It appears that the coach will operate from central Kaunas to Urmas, which is a massive out of town shopping complex.
The above picture was taking in April 2010 when the vehicle was in service on the Quantock Motors gala weekend. It is seen at Bishop’s Lydeard entering the Quantock Motors site. Note the Blue Bus Services badge on the radiator.

Photograph Ken Jones, Copy Ken Jones & Stephen Howarth

25/01/13 – 06:59

What a gem. For English on the link, press the little union flag top right.

Joe

25/01/13 – 09:48

What a beautiful coach. Strange, though, that it only had the 5-cylinder Gardner engine. I wish it well in Lithuania, but admit to some qualms about such loving care being lavished on it. Fingers crossed!

Chris Hebbron

25/01/13 – 12:36

The CVD6 was the most common post-war coach, and then the CVG6. How common was the COG6 before the war, though? Until the Regent III/PD2 era, the 7 litre 5LW was thought adequate for single deckers. Only Tilling parsimony allowed the 5LW to flourish after the war.

David Oldfield

25/01/13 – 14:58

It seems a shame that this gem as Joe calls it is no longer in the country where I presume it spent the last sixty odd years, another loss to the UK.
Very nice shot by the way, never seen that done with a bus before.

Trevor Knowles

25/01/13 – 17:27

A couple of other shots of this coach may be found in the 1968 Halifax Parade gallery, when the livery was slightly different. The 8.6 litre Daimler CD6 engine proved to be less than dependable for double deck work, and became instead the standard option for CV saloons up to the early 1950s. Post WW2, the 5LW engine was certainly not restricted to Bristol buses. Daimler offered a CVG5 variant which was taken by several operators. The 5LW was specified for many Guy Arab III machines, single and double deck, and it appeared in Dennis and Tilling Stevens buses also. In addition, this engine was offered in several makes of goods chassis, and for marine and industrial purposes. The 5LW did not depend upon Bristol for its post war survival. In its final form as the 5LW/20 it developed 100bhp at 1700 rpm, though, by that time, it was no longer offered in bus chassis.

Roger Cox

26/01/13 – 06:44

Bullocks of Featherstone (B&S Motor Services) – taken over by West Riding in 1950 – had five of this identical model Daimler (COG5/40), but managed to squeeze 39 seats into their Willowbrook bodies. The first, BWW 475 (202) was in fact a 1936/37 Commercial Show model. They were fine vehicles spoilt by the somewhat excessive engine vibration which necessitated body rebuilds after the war.

David Allen

26/01/13 – 06:45

Bodywork was generally lighter before the war than after, and the COG5 was Daimler’s most popular model for both single and double deck vehicles. Manchester’s COG5 double deckers were very successful, and so unsurprisingly their first postwar Daimlers were CVG5s. But with an unladen weight of around 8 tons these were less satisfactory, so CVG6s were then purchased until lighter bodywork became available in the mid-fifties (together with some lightweight chassis features arising from the development of the CLG5). CVG5s were then tried again, but were beaten by changed traffic conditions, so MCTD reverted to six-cylinder engines for the final batches.

Peter Williamson

Michael Elliott

GNU 750 as an example of the COG5-40 had a more compact engine compartment and cab that the standard COG5. The 40 in the designation denoted the ability to accommodate 40 passengers. GNU also had a five speed gearbox. I drove this bus on several occasions during the early 1970s when it was in the ownership of John Horrocks.

Michael Elliott

26/01/13 – 13:57

This is a very interesting view, Ken – thanks for posting. It reminds me of the “selective” tinting of school photographs in my primary school days. They were taken in black and white but could be enhanced on payment of a supplement.
I’ve heard of – but don’t use – Photoshop. Is that program how you achieved this?

Pete Davies

26/01/13 – 15:47

There are several programs that will do this sort of task, Pete. Photoshop is the top of the range product for professional artshops and advertising agencies, and is extremely expensive – around £600. Cheaper alternatives are available, including Photoshop Elements and a free program called GIMP. I have an old Photoshop version and also the latest Serif Photoplus X6, which will do most of the things that most of us will need.

Roger Cox

27/01/13 – 08:06

Thanks for that, Roger. The program I use came with the slide scanner I bought a few years ago when converting my slides to digital. It’s called Photoimpression 6. I still use it for editing the digital photos: no point in buying one when I have one in hand!

Pete Davies

27/01/13 – 08:07

Or you could download the free program Photofiltre or use online photo editor Sumopaint, Pete.

Chris Hebbron

04/02/13 – 11:52

I was present on the 1st of May for this running day at Bishops Lydeard and was delighted to see GNU 750 being started up and brought into the ‘bus station’. The run went to Hestercombe House and Gardens but most of the gentlemen aboard (some eight or so of us) preferred to stand around the coach rather than visit the house and gardens.

GNU 750_2

There was some playing around with the destination indicator and, as my photograph shows, some details of the coach were displayed. Would it have been usual practice – by Daimler, if no-one else – to include such information at the beginning or end of their destination rolls? Much as I enjoyed the run, a ride on the ex-Royal Blue Bristol L coach HOD 30 a little later proved to be a more luxurious affair.

Berwyn Prys Jones

05/02/13 – 07:05

The Daimler message on the destination blind will almost certainly have been added during preservation. In any case, the destination blind would not have been provided by Daimler, who only built the chassis.
Mention of “GNU 750 being started up” takes me back to Battersea Park May 1969, prior to the start of the HCVC London to Brighton run. GNU’s chief supporters were up bright and early, sprucing and polishing. I was tasked with taking the ‘tender vehicle’, ex Samuel Ledgard 2-stroke Foden ONW 2, across the bridge to pick up the rest of the party from their hotel. The only problem was that ONW’s exhaust pipe was pointing straight at the now gleaming GNU, and a cold start in that position would have resulted in a large deposit of soot! So GNU had to be started up and moved out of the way first. Funny how things stick in the mind.

Peter Williamson

05/02/13 – 17:42

A couple of shots of Foden ONW 2 may be seen on the ‘Halifax Parade 1968’ gallery. Sadly, this interesting vehicle has since fallen victim to the breaker’s torch.

Roger Cox

07/02/13 – 17:03

Thanks, Peter, I half-suspected as much, but hadn’t seen anything like it on the other preserved buses in the Stephen Morris collection. One wonders why it was put there and only there.


You mentioned starting up. I happened to be inside the depot when another of the Stephen Morris collection was being fired up (almost literally). Just out of sight, a driver had started the engine of the lovely ex-East Kent Leyland Tiger. The whole of the southern half of the shed was gradually enveloped in a fog of white dust (photo attached). As there was no wind, the dust hung round the place creating a rather eerie atmosphere with only the noise of the Tiger’s engine to remind me that I hadn’t been transported to an unhealthy underworld somewhere …

Berwyn Prys Jones

08/02/13 – 06:45

This picture reminds me of Percy Main depot on winter mornings. The garage staff had a cold start technique that required two men and a diesel soaked rag tightly wrapped around a stout piece of wood. The rag would be set alight, one of the staff would then turn over the engine while the other would hold the lighted rag at the end of the canister like air filter. Gardener engines are notoriously smoky when cold, and when you have several of them ticking over at once, the exhaust fumes would be billowing out of the open garage doors giving many a passer by the impression that the place was on fire.

Ronnie Hoye

08/02/13 – 09:07

I recall, in the early ’60’s, going on a fortnight’s course in Brum and staying in digs next to Harborne Depot. Come 4.45am, every morning, there would be the cacophony of bus engines being started, ticking over, then driving out. It’s a wonder I ever succeeded at the course with lack of sleep! I lived near a trolleybus depot for some years – what bliss!

Chris Hebbron

08/02/13 – 16:23

GNU 750_4

At the risk of going severely ‘off piste’, this photo of an ex-Crosville L parked just to the right of the vehicles in my previous photo may evoke the atmosphere at the depot even more vividly.

Berwyn Prys Jones

10/02/13 – 07:45

Berwyn, GNU 750 has been in preservation for a long time under several owners. Here it is in 1979 with the same blind. www.flickr.com/photos

Peter Williamson

08/12/17 – 07:08

In 2011 bought by private person and exported to Kaunas city, Lithuania: //busphoto.ru/photo/209576/

Andrejs

09/12/17 – 07:33

A nice photograph Andrejs but I note that it’s dated 2014. I wonder if the vehicle looks the same now!

Chris Barker

Midland Red – BMMO D9 – EHA 415D – 5415

Midland Red - BMMO D9 - EHA 415D - 5415

Midland Red (Birmingham & Midland Motor Omnibus Co)
1966
BMMO D9
BMMO/Willowbrook H40/32RD

EHA 415D has the unmistakable outline of a Midland Red D9. She has the operator’s own H72RD body, built in collaboration with Willowbrook. Does this mean one designed it and the other built it, or one built the frames and the other added the panels? We see it, newly withdrawn from service and still in full NBC livery (sorry!), in the Southsea rally on 8 June 1980.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

10/11/16 – 07:07

I wasn’t aware that Willowbrook had any involvement in the bodywork of the D9, but I am open to correction if evidence is offered. My understanding is that the bodies were built in the Midland Red Carlyle Works on MetSec frames, and incorporated aluminium alloy and glass fibre panelling, as employed previously in the single deck S14 design.

Roger Cox

10/11/16 – 07:08

It’s come back! Its no good- I have lived in the Midlands in my youth, but I still cannot get fond of Midland Red. I don’t know what it is- that all over red (It was, want it?), or I can still see those single skin fibreglass domes (is that right- how much more was single skin?) or what seemed rather drab uniform interiors… or I could never get used to that sort of “Billy’s bus” front end: but steady, I’m sure they had many virtues: perhaps they were an engineer’s bus…?

Joe

10/11/16 – 09:05

Roger, The PSVC lists might be wrong: they say that the D9 has a BMMO/Willowbrook body, with H40/32RD seating, but both Jenkinson and the old “Ian Allan” BBF listings do not mention Willowbrook. BLOTW, however, mentions only Willowbrook as building the bodies. Ah, well . . .
And the ‘captcha’ code for this comment ends in D9 !!!

Pete Davies

10/11/16 – 09:05

According to ‘Midland Red’ A history of 1940 – 1970 it states “5401-45 bodies completed by Willowbrook”

Peter

10/11/16 – 13:54

The D9 was an integral vehicle, the only double decker so constructed apart from the London Transport Routemaster, which was actually semi-integral. Production of the D9 came in several batches with the following fleet nos:-
4773 : prototype 1958
4849 – 4952 : 1958 to 1961
4945 – 5044 : 1962 to 1963
5296 – 5445 : 1963 to 1966
I confess to being previously unaware of it, though a closer look at my copy of ‘Midland Red Buses’ by M.W. Greenwood confirms that the 45 “tail end charlies” were finished off by Willowbrook, possibly in part because by this time, even before the BET sell out to NBC, BMMO in house production was winding down. Certainly, the D9 design itself owed nothing to the Willowbrook company.

Roger Cox

10/11/16 – 14:37

I have looked at Steve Richards’ book on the D9/D10 classes, titled “More Room on Top”. He states that all the D9s were built at Central Works, except some of the final batch. However by the mid-sixties there was a severe skilled labour shortage at Central Works. The emphasis there was on single-deckers construction, and the final 45 D9s had only reached the part-panelled stage. It was this group which were completed by Willowbrook. They were virtually indistinguishable from the fully Carlyle-built D9s. Steve Richards records that the side lamps were positioned slightly lower, and the small “Midland” display above the destination screens was slightly different. The first four [5401-5404] were delivered in December 1965, the rest followed in 1966, finally being completed in November that year. I would say from this account that these particular ones should be described as “BMMO/Willowbrook” rather than being attributed wholly to the Loughborough company.

Michael Hampton

10/11/16 – 14:38

Although at the time I had little interest in the detail construction of buses, I do know that when I had the pleasure to drive D9’s in service in 1967 from Redditch and Digbeth garages I found them to be far superior in steering, semi-automatic gear changing, engine power, superb disc braking and general driver friendliness than anything I had driven on BCT. One slight problem I remember them to be very light and bouncy in the ride especially when empty. I certainly class them in the 3 finest double deckers to drive in my 50yrs experience with PSV’s, with the Routemaster and Neoplan Skyliner

Tony Morgan

11/11/16 – 05:44

The erroneous idea that Willowbrook constructed, rather than merely completed, the bodies on the final 45 D9s seems to have crept into all sorts of places, even on the Coventry Corporation Transport Society webpages :- //www.cct-society.org.uk/midland/buses_t05.htm 

 
Here is a picture of an earlier D9 No.5002 (3002 HA) taken in Birmingham in the late 1960s, when the bus still wore the BET style livery and fleetname. Like its single deck counterpart, the S14, the suspension of the D9 was by Metalastik rubber units, though independent at the front. One curious feature of the D9 was the full hydraulic braking system in which the pump was driven from the output side of the gearbox, giving rather peculiar braking responses at low road speeds. In the Routemaster, the pump was driven at engine speeds. The prototype D9 originally had disc brakes at front and rear, but the first production batch had discs on the front only, with drum brakes on the rear wheels. Even these discs proved troublesome, and all the later D9s were equipped with drum brakes all round, the first batch being retro fitted accordingly. I note Joe’s impassioned plea concerning this operator, so I hope soon to submit a gallery of Midland Red buses to the OBP site for his enjoyment.

Roger Cox

11/11/16 – 08:01

Apparently this vehicle sometime in the seventies carried an all over advertisement for a ‘Do It Yourself Warehouse’ which could have been called ‘Super D’. I think it was in an all over white livery.

EHA 415D_2

Also just above the top front windows a strengthening bar can be seen which was added due to front dome fatigue.

Peter

11/11/16 – 08:01

This has been an interesting exchange of views! Thanks for your comments.

Pete Davies

12/11/16 – 07:17

5395

Attached for comparison a side image of 5395 taken in Shrewsbury bus station in 1970.
I enjoyed riding on the D9s particularly on the rural services. An unusual feature was the inward facing front nearside seats downstairs. The book ‘ More room on top ‘ is recommended although I am biased as a friend contributed a number of excellent colour photos.

Keith Newton

12/11/16 – 07:19

I’ve seen the obvious now- that the D9 had a considerable front overhang which gives it its funny look- but as Tony says it’s an Engineer/Driver’s bus… and anything comparable with a Skyliner must be OK. We’ve been here before but compare this overhang & everything else with its contemporary the Wulfrunian and you can see how folk were thinking then, especially if rear-engine to them meant Renault 10!

Joe

16/11/16 – 14:45

It was not only D9s that were finished off by Willowbrook. S17s around the same time were and I believe both Willowbrook and Plaxton were used. Serious production difficulties caused by skilled staff shortages. Interestingly outside contractors were not used for the later S21 and S22 types but Plaxton were used for S23 by which time all production was stopping. Although every D9 appears to have been modified and allegedly no two buses were the same, the Willowbrook finished ones are identifiable by the trim above the front wheel arch. MidlandRed.net is a good source of information.

Sam Caunt

01/02/17 – 17:12

I have only just seen the comments re Willowbrook completing D9s. I can remember seeing them in skeletal form travelling along the then A50 towards Coalville. Their destination was confirmed by my father who was based in the divisional traffic office in the 1960s. The drivers would have had to take the scenic route round Ashby in order to avoid two low bridges, hence their appearance in Coalville. I am unable to say which route they used onwards to Loughborough, but the M1 would have been available from November 1965!

Peter Baseley

22/11/17 – 07:31

I must comment on the subject of the BMMO D9 (and BMMO’s in general) as a former Midland Red engineering supervisor of 25 years service.The bodywork of the Willowbrook examples might have been finished by them but the chassis was certainly built at Carlyle works-the works itself did not close.The D9 was of monocoque construction and would have had the outer panel skin added by the coachbuilders.A few more facts:D9‘s were NOT disc braked,except the prototype 4773,the rest were all round hydraulic drum braked,unlike the single deckers.4773 by the way still survives,being currently restored from derelict condition.D9’s may or may not have been single skinned but they were sturdy and stable enough,as anyone who compared a ride upstairs on one with a Fleetline (DD11) on the 658 Leicester-Coventry service-the Fleetline swayed about like hell (a well known trait of Fleetlines in crosswinds.) In general BMMO‘s WERE an engineer’s bus,easy to work on and reliable,but also a driver’s bus,with excellent roadholding and braking.The 10.5 litre engine (same as CM6) was probably the finest the UK bus industry has produced.
What other PSV diesel engine (in a single decker) could get away with no cooling fan at all?

Michael Hunt

20/12/18 – 06:36

These were a superb bus. the slight setting back of the front axle reduced the wheelbase slightly and I assume this was to make the bus slightly more maneuverable or perhaps the suspension design necessitated it? I think this particular feature did incur some pitching on certain types of road surface but that aside they were excellent and likes by the drivers, which speaks volumes.
I have had the privilege of driving one occasionally and the front suspension certainly irons out road imperfections.It was only the final batches that were finished by Willowbrok just as Plaxton finished some of the saloons from the same period. There are constant references to these buses loosing the power steering if the brakes were applied, the two systems were separate and I can’t see how that could happen.

William Parker

20/12/18 – 08:52

I have 5424 and restored it from the chassis up around 18 years ago. It is a curious mis-match of technologies with extensive use of fibre glass taking weight down to compensate for the very heavy engine. They are basic and built down to a price. Mine lasted 11 years in service and only 5 in preservation before being put off the road. Midland Red had innovative engineers but their lack of resource was found out when the vehicles were in service. Many Midland Red folllowers say the reason they had so many Black Country garages combined with bus stations was to make transfer to another bus easier for the drivers when they put them off the road.

Roger Burdett

Hebble – AEC Reliance – GCP 8 – 179


Photo by unknown – if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Hebble Motor Services
1956
AEC Reliance MU3RV
Willowbrook B44F

I can recognize that this photo was taken outside the Hebble depot at Walnut Street in the depths of the terrace streets of north Halifax. They also had a depot in Bradford at Park Lane, the garage was big enough for 50 vehicles and Yorkshire Woollen District buses were stationed in the same depot when working the Bradford area. Hebble was one of if not the smallest B.E.T. operator and by the reading of Peter Gould’s history of Hebble Motors they did have a tendency to flaunt the rules a bit.
To read Peter Gould’s history of Hebble Motor Services and it is well worth doing so click here.

Chesterfield Corporation – AEC Reliance – 495 ALH – 18

Chesterfield Corporation - AEC Reliance - 495 ALH - 18

Chesterfield Corporation
1960
AEC Reliance MU3RA
Willowbrook B42D

Chesterfield bought this bus from London Transport it was RW1 in their fleet. Roof windows were more likely to be found on dual purpose or coaches rather than on a bus but this bus had them. It also had a dual entrance with, as usual at London Transport a front entrance and centre exit, I am not sure if Chesterfield changed it to front only doors. If you know, let me know, please leave a comment.

A full list of Reliance codes can be seen https://old-bus-photos.nwframpton.com/abbreviations/here.

Nice photo of the RW, Chesterfield had just gone one man and from then until the mid 70s bought a lot of 2 door buses (about 75) double and single deck. The RWs (Reliance/Willowbrook) was the standard bus for several years in Grimsby-Cleethorpes, London tried 3 but then went for Swifts and Merlins.

David Harrison

Chesterfield obviously liked the RW Reliances as they were followed by a fair number of Neepsend/East Lancs Reliances. All of them had centre exits, which the RWs also retained. They were then followed by Daimler Roadliners – total disaster – and Leyland Panthers. All of these were also dual door.

David Oldfield

As an aside, what is the part-view single-decker with the stepped side windows on the right of the RW?

Chris Hebbron

I think the bus behind the Reliance is ERA 95. A pre-war gearless Leyland Tiger that had been given a manual gearbox and converted into a mobile canteen. If not it could be one of the single deck Crossleys, but they were all withdrawn when the Reliances arrived as they were their replacements.

Ian Couzens

BBF5 (1965 edition) shows 12 Crossley single-deckers on the fleet strength as well as the RWs, which arrived in 1963. The part of the body visible looks identical to the Crossley body on the preserved Chesterfield Leyland PS1. I should be very surprised if anything prewar had a stepped waistrail like that, since it appears to be derived from the post-war Manchester double deck design.

Peter Williamson

Glimpsing that Crossley-bodied single-decker I assumed the chassis was also Crossley, but the rear hub (had to look hard!) identifies as a postwar Leyland, two of which I understand are preserved.
I 1966 I arranged for a college nr Reading to buy NRA 717 and later became a part-owner. We passed it on to Alan Smallie of Worksop as a source of spares for his sister ships. Is either of them on the rally circuit?

Ian Thompson

One or two of the Crossleys survived quite late, although I think in some instances at least not in passenger service.
Chesterfield had Crossley single-deck bodies on PS1s, SD42s and, uniquely, on AEC Regals but I have never seen a picture of the AECs

David Beilby

Leeds also used roof line windows on single deckers in the nineteen fifties. Their small fleet of saloons were all centre entrance with vertiginous steps and carried 34 seated and 20 standees. The windows were so standing passengers could see the outside world! Leeds first dual door saloons Roe bodied AEC Reliances did not have the feature but it reappeared on the Roe bodied AEC Swifts in the late sixties. These were eventually painted over in PTE days

Chris Hough

In answer to David Beilby, there was a booklet; Tramlines to Fleetlines, a history of Chesterfield Transport, published by the Council and Transpire, the Chesterfield bus society which contained a picture of one of the Regals, JRA 653 (credited to R Marshall) It was one of four, I too thought they must have been unique! Not sure if the book is still around today, perhaps Transpire could help.

Chris Barker

Nice pics of Chesterfield Crossley-bodied Leyland PS1 JRA 635 on YouTube: Novawheels.

Ian Thompson

I’ve just noticed that the Reliance is described as MU3RA. Bus Lists On The Web has it as 2MU3RA. However, I once met one of these buses later in life with Brutonian, and it was semi-automatic, which would make it 2MU2RA. Does anyone have a definitive answer to this?
I’ve made an enquiry about the Transpire book. Meanwhile those interested in Alan Smalley’s Crossleys may like to take a look at this slideshow.
(No, neither of them is on the rally circuit.)

Peter Williamson

I’m told that the best place to enquire about the booklet “Tramlines to Fleetlines” would be Terminus Publications. Contact details at here.

Peter Williamson

Tramlines to Fleetlines refers to the early post war single deck vehicles all having Crossley bodies:-
2 x Leylands
4 x AEC Regal
20 x Crossleys
There were also 30 all Crossley d/deckers
The two Leylands were converted on withdrawal as PSV’s to a mobile canteen and a driver trainer – I suspect that it may be one of these two that feature in the photograph

Andrew Charles

09/02/11 – 06:33

I drove this bus for Chesterfield Corporation the lights were terrible not fit for rural work and it mainly worked the colliery routes around Chesterfield

Colin Ellis

24/03/11 – 06:31

These buses would regularly pick us up from school for our weekly visit to Central Baths on Ashgate Road in about 1971/2. They were often used on the more rural routes to places like Calow Green and Barlow etc. As a kid, I wondered why the upholstery of these buses was finished in red where other Corporation buses had the usual green upholstery.

Michael Ashley

24/07/12 – 18:19

When I was a small boy in Sheffield in the 1950s, my mum worked for Stephenson Blake, typefounders in Sheffield. For many years, the Stephensons took the staff and family members for a summer Saturday afternoon out to Hassop Hall in Derbyshire where they lived. On the occasions that I was taken we always travelled from Sheffield to the hall in Chesterfield Corporation single deck buses. It sticks in my mind that they were Crossleys and that they struggled a bit on some of the Derbyshire hills with their full load! We had a bit of a tour round before arriving at the Hall for the afternoon.
Sorry this isn’t very technical but I hope someone finds it of interest.
Presumably the buses were hired from Chesterfield because they were cheaper than Sheffield?

Stan Zapiec

25/07/12 – 07:01

The three RW class Reliances entered service with London Transport (Country Buses and Coaches) in August 1960, about the same time as I did – I started work from school at Reigate South Divisional Office on 29th August. Having standardised from 1952 on the dependable RF Regal IV for full sized single deck requirements, LTE started to make a cautionary appraisal of the Reliance, first with the RW, and then, in 1965, with the 36ft RC class (a fiasco that deserves a posting of its own on the site). The three RW buses had Monocontrol gearboxes and were thus of the 2MU2RA type, as Peter Williamson has correctly pointed out. The Willowbrook bodywork was added on to a production order for Grimsby Cleethorpes, and was of B42D configuration in line with LTE’s increasing interest in dual doorway buses.
Inevitably, the serious shortcomings of the AH470 engine soon became evident, and the inflexibility of the LT maintenance system built entirely round the removal of defective parts and replacement by Chiswick reconditioned units exacerbated the difficulty. LT garages did not have the expertise at local level for analysing and fixing engineering problems, a feature that was to emerge even more seriously later with the DM/DMS Fleetlines. The RWs were tried out on rural routes round the Country Bus system – I rode on them on the hilly 440 service between Woldingham and Salfords (near Redhill) – where the dual doorway concept proved to be something of a liability in constricted stopping places. After a mere three years in service, the entire class was withdrawn in October 1963, and then sold to Chesterfield in December of that year. Astonishingly, two of these buses still survive. Only RW1 featured in the picture above ended up in the scrapyard. The restoration of RW2 and 3, though entirely creditable, does illustrate yet again the distorted bias of the preservation movement towards LT vehicle types.

Roger Cox

26/07/12 – 14:15

497 ALH-Bruton

RW3 (497 ALH) has been much in the news this year, having made its preservation debut at Cobham and subsequently taken part in the Brighton run. Its owners have undoubtedly done a first-class restoration. But this is how I remember it: as number 15 in the fleet of the Brutonian Bus Company of Bruton, Somerset, with whom it ran from 1978 to 1987. Seen here in the yard in 1983.

Michael Wadman

27/07/12 – 08:29

…..but I remember it as a Chesterfield bus.

David Oldfield

21/01/13 – 17:27

As a youngster I can well recall our journeys on the Owler Bar to Fox House part of the Summer Saturday and Sunday only Chesterfield – Fox House route 7. In those days, the route was via Cordell Valley, with a stiff climb up to Owler Bar. The Leylands (PS1’s) would growl and snarl their way to the top. the Crossleys (SD42’s) would struggle and my dad would often ask the conductor in jest if we could mash a pot of tea. The drivers had a struggle in getting away from the Owler Bar stop – no auto boxes then. I recall a visit to Derbyshire in the early 70′. The route was renumbered No. 4 and re routed via Holmesfield, an extension of the existing run from Chesterfield. Perhaps the buses of the 70’s were not man enough for the climb from Cordwell Valley To Owler Bar. I don’t think the route exists any more

Jerry Wilkes

22/01/13 – 06:42

Had a meal with my brother and sister in law at the Peacock, Owler Bar, just after Christmas. I well remember the Chesterfield buses on the Fox House runs – and Cordwell Valley was a favourite childhood haunt. The Panthers and Roadliners might not have been man enough for the job but the Neepsend Reliances were regular performers.

David Oldfield

14/09/14 – 07:13

I used to be a bus driver for Chesterfield Corporation Transport from 1966 to 1884. I drove all these buses on Homes Field Barlow the reason they used these buses was because the other buses was 36 feet long these was a lot smaller they had small buses on No9. Spiral run as well. I really enjoyed working as a bus driver with the Chesterfield transport until they brought in one Manning it took all the thrill out of working on the buses.

Brian Nicholls

11/09/16 – 07:28

Remember, the Crossley bus was on route to Fox House on Whit Monday 1965 1967.

Geoff

13/10/17 – 06:24

Please can anyone remember the mystery tours I believe on Sunday afternoons from Chesterfield East Midlands bus station!!…They went around the Peak District!! In mid 1960s….

Lyn Davey

18/01/18 – 09:09

I have only just found this site and find it very interesting as i worked for Chesterfield Transport for 39 years.I drove the 2 old ex-London buses and as i recall they spent a lot of time on Chesterfield to Spital route via Eyre Street, and had to do a reverse at the far end of Spital Lane. I can also remember the old Leyland that was converted to the Mobile Canteen. I worked on this old bus for 3 years.When it was converted it was driven as H.G.V.instead of P.S.V.

A. Ward

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

04/05/19 – 06:38

I went to school on ex-Chesterfield Weymann bodied PD2 (221 GRA and 229 LRB) both owned by Mulleys Motorways, of Ixworth, Suffolk. Both registrations were transferred onto newer coaches.

David Willis

Rochdale Corporation – AEC Reliance – GDK 324D – 24

Rochdale Corporation - AEC Reliance - GDK 324D

Rochdale Corporation
1966
AEC Reliance 6MU2RA
Willowbrook B45F

Rochdale were always a good customer for AEC vehicles especially single deckers all from 1940 were AEC. Front engined Regals to start with to rear engined Swifts with the very dependable underfloor Reliance in between, the above does look quite smart with its Willowbrook body. I do like the roof windows I should imagine that they made the bus feel quite bright and airy. This vehicle passed over to SELNEC on the 1st of November 1969 and probably did many years service with them. The Reliance coding is bit tricky to understand a MU2RA had a synchromesh gearbox and vacuum brakes, what the 6 stood for I do not know, engine size perhaps, if anyone knows all the Reliance coding and what they all stood for please let me know and I will put them on the abbreviations page.

Photograph contributed by Ian Beswick

Thanks to David Oldfield for putting together the codes for the AEC Reliance which can be seen here.

The 6MU2RA had Monocontrol gearboxes and air brakes as had all Rochdale’s Reliances. In the AEC code no 3 stands for Synchromesh and ‘V’ for vacuum brakes. Also Rochdale’s Regals were not front engined but underfloor engined Regal IV’s. They were 1-7 with East Lancs bodies (1951) and 8-15 with Burlingham bodies (1953). All were delivered as B42D but were converted in the late 1950’s to B44F.
Four (11/13-15) were sold to Lancaster City Transport around 1957 as the Healey route 2 was converted to double-deck operation and Rochdale had less need for saloons.

Philip Halstead