Walsall Sunbeam F4A, Willowbrook bodied trolleybus, 872 XDH 72. Seen leaving Bichills Depot on the evening of 3rd October 1970, having dropped off the guests it carried and is now making the last run ‘under the wires’ on a public road by a Walsall trolleybus. At the wheel is Mr R. Edgley Cox, Walsall’s well known general manager. The bus had been owned by West Midlands PTE since October 1969 and is now at Sandtoft Trolleybus Museum.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Tony Martin
13/11/12 – 17:30
How very atmospheric! Thanks for sharing.
Pete Davies
13/11/12 – 17:31
Here is a picture of fellow Walsall Corporation Sunbeam/Willowbrook trolleybus No. 862, which now resides at the Black Country Museum, Dudley, where I photographed it on 3 June 2010.
Roger Cox
14/11/12 – 07:31
Distinctive, if not that attractive vehicle, IMHO. I do recall being surprised at seeing one of these running around Portsmouth, when there was a municipal transport conference on at the Guildhall around 1955-56. It certainly turned some heads, with its blue livery amongst the familiar maroon/white natives!
Chris Hebbron
14/11/12 – 07:31
Although these vehicles were something of an ‘ugly duckling’ there was something charismatic about them and I always liked them. I have often wondered how long Walsall would have continued to run trolleybuses if the West Midlands PTE had not been set up. Having taken over in 1969 the PTE couldn’t wait to be rid of the trolleys and the drafting in to Walsall of large numbers of Birmingham ‘standards’ hastened the conversion. If my memory serves me correctly this left just Teesside and Bradford still operating trolleybuses and I was present at the last day for both these systems.
Philip Halstead
15/11/12 – 11:12
I’ve always thought that Mr Cox, if he had the chance, would have made sure Walsall’s trolleybuses were the last, even if only by an hour! Of course, early 1972 was one of the periods when power cuts affected many parts of the country. More of my ‘old bus’ photos on www.flickr.com
Tony Martin
17/04/13 – 07:20
I have a photo somewhere of 864 running route 20 Eastney in Portsmouth – I’ll look to uploading it soon. If only Walsall had retained the wiring on one of the circular routes and one each of the vehicles…
jvs
05/06/13 – 05:51
Almost certain Ron Edgley-Cox is sat on the contactor cabinet in this shot – but he was most certainly at the wheel when it came back
jvs
12/07/13 – 07:56
As mentioned the N/S cab contains the large contact box and keeps it well protected. These were the first 30ft trolleybuses to be placed in service on two axles and weighed in at I think, 7 Ton 5 cwt. 832 is a nice one to drive and very user friendly.
William Parker
15/07/13 – 08:14
It was perhaps surprising that Mr Edgley Cox opted for this design since in May 1954 he sent a drawing to the Ministry of Transport for a longer 62 seat version of Hulls Coronation trolleybuses. He fully supported G H Pulfrey’s views on one-man operation and saw this as a good design although his version lacked a central staircase despite having a central doorway as well as the forward doorway. He also advocated longer single deck trolleybuses.
Malcolm J Wells
11/09/13 – 16:30
Great night picture. I passed out for my green badge on Walsall’s trolley buses (Was it Mr Clarke) and was so sorry to see them go. The colour of those buses at night was strange due to the street lighting. Frosty early mornings was like bonfire night sparks and flashes lighting up the streets. That bamboo pole was in regular use with me pulling the wrong change over, Great buses indeed yes I loved those trolleys. That vehicle they used to come and repair and tape up the damaged poles was an oddity lol. Happy days. I must go to the BCM to see one again. The Daimler Fleetline’s was a lot slower, shhhh, early morning Pratt’s bridge/Walsall you could get a lick on. Thanks for the chance to see those pics, lovely site.
Frank
14/02/14 – 13:29
Edgley Cox tried to get towards one man operation when he converted three trolley buses from rear entrance to front entrance. They were 875, 876, 877, These were the first buses I worked on when I started a an apprentice bodybuilder in 1961.
Stewart Poxon
16/02/14 – 07:53
There was a rumor that Walsall purchased Bournemouth 300 in 1969, for some sort of electric to diesel conversion experiments. Did this happen or was 300 scrapped like the rest?
Lewis Esposito
04/04/14 – 06:22
Walsall did have Bournemouth 300 (300 LJ) at their works in 1969, the plan being to make modifications so that it would be suitable for OMO. The plan was to buy 29 of these modern trolleybuses from Bournemouth at a total price of £4,000. One report says that the electric motors were to be removed and replaced by diesel engines. For more search Flickr "300LJ" and you’ll see my copies of newspaper articles from 1969 about this project.
Walsall1955
06/04/14 – 08:22
According to David Harvey’s book on Walsall no. 300 was fitted with a diesel engine under the rear staircase in order to be able to operate away from the overhead – the front entrance was to be widened and the rear platform and staircase removed . Extra trolleybuses were wanted for five additional routes under the terms of a Parliamentary Bill of 1969. I am very pro-trolleybus but why, with the impending PTE takeover, trolleybus expenditure was being pursued at this late date is an interesting question. Ex Cleethorpes 873 was also subject to engine fitting experiments.
Malcolm Wells
06/04/14 – 10:41
Thx for the additional info, Malcolm. This would explain the hole cut in the offside rear of said trolleybus, which had puzzled me up until now. Here is the link to 300LJ which Walsal1955 mentioned above: www.flickr.com/photos/walsall1955
Stratford-upon-Avon Blue Motors Ltd 1963 Leyland Titan PD3A/1 Willowbrook H41/32F
This the third and last shot in my series of Stratford Blue vehicles it is fleet number 2 registration 669 HNX. A Leyland Titan PD3A/1 with a Willowbrook highbridge body dating from 1963. Interestingly as my second posting of the exposed radiator Stratford Blue Titan No.25 which had frontal damage this vehicle also has frontal damage a large chunk of its glass fibre front radiator grill is missing.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
24/07/12 – 18:23
Is it accident damage or a modification as I looks rather neatly cut? It was quite common at Yorkshire Traction for all three lower bars to be removed and replaced by wire mesh, as an aid to cooling, perhaps?
Eric Bawden
25/07/12 – 07:14
The reason for the mod at Tracky was for a reason a little less technical!, the slats kept getting broken by ham fisted (footed?)conductors standing on them whilst trying to reach up and change the destination blind.
Andrew Charles
25/07/12 – 07:15
More likely that it was stood on and broken when someone was changing the destination blind.
Ronnie Hoye
25/07/12 – 07:15
This type of damage was often caused by the feet of crews as they changed the destination indicator. Salford a fleet with very high standards used extra long destination gear to prevent this type of damage.
Chris Hough
25/07/12 – 11:21
Yes Andrew, that less technical reason dawned on me just after I sent my original message!
Eric Bawden
25/07/12 – 16:53
From about 1955 onwards, on all Tynemouth’s vehicles ‘Northern General Group’ the destination blinds were changed to the inside upstairs, access was gained by lowering a flap to get at the handles However, the flaps weren’t lockable, and especially on school runs you would usually complete the run displaying some very strange destinations. WORKMAN BAD or PRIVATE SEX were quite common along with SCHOOLARS ABC
Ronnie Hoye
26/07/12 – 07:45
I can’t decide whether the “St Helens” glass-fibre front is a masterpiece of raw industrial design or just plain ugly. Similarly the LAD goods vehicle cab front, with which it – perhaps understandably – bears some affinity. Ah! but the livery: I’d allow anything in that – way better than the striped lilac shockers that now run my way. To pick up on Chris’s post of the 25th: it does look as though Stratford Blue had extended the destination gear . . . although not to the extent that Salford did, and with the consequences evident in the photograph.
Philip Rushworth
26/07/12 – 14:00
Ronnie’s comment reminds me that Trent also had interior access to the destination blind. I seem to remember the whole assembly was mounted on a panel that was hinged at the bottom edge and secured by a couple of budget locks. About age 8 I guess, I was with my parents heading into Nottingham one Saturday evening on a 61, front seat upstairs. The conductor came up after Bulwell to change the blind (not misleading as no one else could be picked up inside NCT territory). After unlocking the panel he saw me watching with interest and said, “’Ere – you can do this for me – wind it on ter Mansfield!” It made my day (I know, I know – little things please little minds!)
Stephen Ford
27/07/12 – 08:27
What was it about destination blinds that fascinated little boys? I remember being taken to an exhibition in 1956 to mark the centenary of my home town Rochdale becoming a County Borough. There was a mock-up of Rochdale Corporation’s bus destination gear in a big box on a stand and anyone was invited to play with the handles and set the blinds. Oh what bliss! I don’t remember anything else about the exhibition. I spent all day setting up the proper displays with number, destination and via details only for other kids to keep interfering and just winding for fun. Philistines!
Philip Halstead
27/07/12 – 08:35
The diversion into the merits or otherwise of having blinds changed on the upper deck reminds me of the days when Southampton had a balloon festival, served by a special bus service, and I was usually the conductor on a Regent V – it meant a welcome change from driving my desk! At each end of the route, the blind had to be changed and, though it was a free service, tickets were issued, so there was plenty of running up and down the stairs. It’s an incredibly pleasant way of burning off the excess blubber!
Pete Davies
27/07/12 – 15:30
Some front destination blinds were changed by the driver inside the cab. It must have been in either Leyland or Weymann bodies, but I can’t remember which, (information, anybody?). A Maidstone & District PD2 was involved in what was then the worst ever accident involving a PSV, (it may still be), when it was driven into a column of naval cadets in Chatham. The driver claimed to have blacked out; M&D staff – I was told the story by a Gillingham dispatcher – suspected that the driver was distracted changing the screen as he approached the terminus.
Roy Burke
27/07/12 – 15:31
Philip, it’s a relief to know I’m not the only sad person on here! One reason for the fascination – and why I, for one, would always stop and watch mesmerised when a blind was being changed, was to catch a fleeting glimpse of rarely used destinations – including some that had fallen out of use because of route changes. But I think the other thing was the ability to fiddle around with a mechanical contrivance that worked better than anything you could build in Meccano. For the same reason, bells of all shapes and descriptions also fascinated me – and ticket machines.
Stephen Ford
28/07/12 – 08:31
I remember that one, Roy, at the time. I seem to recall that he drove into the bus queue waiting at the stop. And there are no sad folk on this website, Stephen, only happy but eccentric ones!
Chris Hebbron
28/07/12 – 11:03
The story as I heard it, Chris, was that the cadets were marching in formation to Chatham Dockyard in the same direction as the bus, so weren’t looking out for it, and the combination of the badly lit road and their dark uniforms, (and, allegedly, changing the blind as he was driving), led to the driver not seeing them. BTW, while writing, thanks for your information about AFR Carling, (the recent WY posting). I met him once or twice – not always in the happiest of circumstances – and he had a lovely house right in the middle of my patch when I worked for Southdown.
Roy Burke
28/07/12 – 16:00
Okay, Roy you’re right – I’ve just looked it up, 1951 and 24 youngsters died. Sad business, doubly so if the driver did take his eye off the road. Glad you found my Southdown comments useful, he certainly had a memorable war, along with many others!
Chris Hebbron
29/07/12 – 08:55
Sorry to go off on another old-bus-photos tangent, but your remarks about AFR Carling, Chris, revived many long dormant memories. You’ve said he was Area Manager, Portsmouth, during WWII, and became General Manager in 1947. What about the intermediate post of Traffic Manager? How long was Mr Carling GM of Southdown before going to Stratton House, and who followed him? George Duckworth was GM in my time.
Roy Burke
02/01/13 – 07:34
Just a slight correction, Roy, the bus involved in the Chatham disaster was apparently Chatham & District 875 (GKE 69), a 1939 Weymann-bodied Bristol K5G. Chatham & District were absorbed into Maidstone & District c1955 and of the batch of 37 (870-906) the 25 surviving at the time became M & D DH293-317. One of the batch, C & D 874, has been owned by the Friends of Chatham Traction for many years – I believe it is currently undergoing extensive restoration.
Leicester City Transport 1958 Leyland Titan PD3/1 Willowbrook H41/33R
LCT bought an eclectic mix of chassis and bodywork for its fleet over the decades, but settled on just three (164-166) tin-fronted Leyland Titan PD3/1’s, with attractive Willowbrook bodywork, in 1958. 165 and 166 were withdrawn in 1972 and 1975 respectively, with 164 being withdrawn in 1974. It’s seen here, looking remarkably chipper, aged 19, at the Bristol Bus Show, in 1977.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Chris Hebbron
29/09/12 – 07:43
And would the gent who looks as if he’s volunteering to become lunch be Mr Hebbron, by any chance?
Pete Davies
29/09/12 – 07:44
This bus is currently under restoration on a farm outside Leicester.
Philip Lamb
29/09/12 – 12:15
I thought it was at Snibston Discovery Park in Coalville, fully restored ages ago, along with a 6 wheel Renown and the 1911 Leicester City Transport Leyland tower wagon used up to the end of LCT Tramways in 1949. The latter is the oldest preserved Leyland lorry.
If the photo is 1974, Chris, and the figure looking in is not you, then it would be Clive; (sorry Clive, but I cannot remember your second name!). He was the regular Leicester Museums staff member who drove the exhibits to various shows when they were stationed at the Corporation Road Pumping Station Museum in Leicester. Probably still does, from Snibston. Other LCT buses are restored, or under restoration, by the Leicester Transport heritage Trust, including tram 36.
John Whitaker
29/09/12 – 18:03
Handsome bus, dignified livery. By the time I went up to university in 1984 the bus fleet had been standardised on MCW Metropolitans and Dennis Domintors with a few Metro-Scanias thrown in: but the fleet still sported the dignified cream and maroon-banded livery, some services were conductor-worked, and tickets dispensed from Ultimates and Solomatics . . . not for long though, the red/white/grey Leicester CityBus identity was adopted as part of the Leicester CityCouncil corporate identity (that’s right chaps, paint your buses the same colour as your refuse waggons so that passengers get the message), and Wayfarer machines came in. Most LCT services (except those worked jointly with Midland Red/Fox?) were cross-city and, I think until a route revision round about the time I went up, used different numbers depending on direction of travel. Leicester, like Trent, used to place front number plates at ‘tween decks level – any suggestions as to why? was this just a midlands foible, or did any other operators adopt this practice? Willowbrook seemed to have a respectable business amongst major operators for both single and double-deck business around this time, but then in the 1970s seemed to concentrate on the lightweight market: I suppose the introduction of the Leyland National killed-off the BET standard business, but why didn’t it continue to chase the double-deck market? And why did Duple buy Willowbrook and then divest itself of the business? Why did it keep the Willowbrook identity when Burlingham and Nudd Brothers & Lockyer became Duple (Northern) and Duple (Midland) – in fact, why wasn’t Willowbrook amalgamated with Duple (Midland)? Anyway, back to the bus: did Leicester pay extra for the Leyland badge? which would explain why not all tin-fronts sported this feature, but not why Leyland didn’t think it worth advertising itself on its products; and why, when the tin-front was adopted for wider use, did Leyland not modify the grill to eliminate the space for the BMMO badge? – surely the costs of re-tooling would have been miniscule when compared to production volumes. So many questions! Hopefully some answers will be forthcoming, in the meantime I’m going to scroll up and drool over the bus a bit more . . .
Philip Rushworth
30/09/12 – 07:57
Number plates between decks was not just a midlands foible Philip as Southdown did up until I think the late fifties when they moved them to below the cab windscreen for some reason although for obvious reasons the double deck coach No 700 with full front Northern Counties body always had it’s plate below the radiator grill. I think the livery on the PD3 in the photo was far better than the later predominately cream version and the red/white/grey is best forgotten and the Midland Red front although not very stylish was infinitely superior to the St Helens front which was such an ugly brute which never suited any bodywork.
Diesel Dave
30/09/12 – 07:58
Philip Willowbrook did build some VRs and Atlanteans in the seventies principally for the Northern General companies sadly they were not a patch on this example Leicester’s last rear entrance bus an East Lancs bodied PD3 ran in 1982. Why Leyland kept the tin front design until the early sixties without getting rid of the space for the BMMO badge I cannot say but Edinburgh fitted a version of it to all its Titans finally building a fibre glass version themselves. The bodies built by Willowbrook were somewhat ersatz copies of ECW (the VR) and MCW products.
Chris Hough
30/09/12 – 10:40
If you go to your web page and type in AFT53 you’ll find a picture of Tynemouth 223 being used as a training bus, it was one of 5 Willowbrook bodied PD2/12’s delivered to Percy Main in 1957. AFT 49/53 – 219/223. The original livery layout was mostly red with cream center band and roof, later on the roof became red ‘I thought they looked best in that livery’ and about 1968 this updated version of the first post war layout was adopted. As far as I know these were the only ones of this type in the NGT group. Northern were never fans of tin fronts, in fact I think the Routemasters were the only ones that came close to that description
Ronnie Hoye
30/09/12 – 12:04
The tin front design question is an interesting one, as the Leyland grille design changed slightly over the years and I see nothing sacrosanct about the part with the space for the BMMO badge. This photograph also makes clear why Orion bodies (in particular) on tin-front chassis, tapered in so much at the front. This was to match the width of the standard tin-front which was clearly to suit 7′-6″ chassis. Willowbrook opted to maintain more body width to the front resulting in a mini dash panel to the offside of the tin front.
David Beilby
02/10/12 – 14:46
Diesel Dave comments on the ugliness of the St Helens front. I’m making the rash assumption here that St Helens Corporation thought it rather pretty!
Pete Davies
02/10/12 – 14:54
The figure is not me, Pete/John and the photo was taken in 1977, so may or may not be Clive. I was worried, myself, about the wisdom of examining the mechanicals in the bowels of the monster, so I kept well clear. One can never be too careful!
Chris Hebbron
03/10/12 – 06:00
Thanks for clarifying! It looks as if that lid could stand duty as a guillotine.
Pete Davies
03/10/12 – 06:01
The later Leyland concealed radiator design was known as the St Helens front, because St Helens was the first operator to take delivery. The design was pure Leyland – a reverse of the situation re the original Leyland tin front, which was developed to match contemporary Midland Red styling.
Philip Lamb
03/10/12 – 06:02
David, the tin front wasn’t designed to suit a 7ft 6in chassis. The original design, as we all know, was for BMMO and the order was for 100 8ft wide PD2s with Leyland bodies. Again, as we know, the standard Leyland 8ft wide body was a widening of the original 7ft 6in wide body. For some reason Leyland widened all but the the front of the 8ft body. This didn’t cause any design problem with the traditional layout of radiator and front scuttle panel and, as the BMMO requirement for a tin front was expected to be only for them, the tin front was designed to blend with the body. Whilst the tin front was eventually offered on both 7ft 6in and 8ft chassis, the BMMO order was the only one, in either width, to specify Leyland body work. Liverpool adopted the tin front and its 1954 delivery of PD2/20s (8ft wide with bodies by Alexander) did not have the narrowing and the tin front on these vehicles was the full width of the bus – as were tin fronts on bodies by other builders for a range of operators using the 8ft wide chassis. Doug Jack’s “The Leyland Bus” has a range of pictures showing a variety of 8 ft wide tin front PD2s without any narrowing of the body, some with full width tin fronts, some with the 7ft 6in version on 8ft wide bodies. The question is why 8ft wide Orion bodies narrowed as they did to use the 7ft 6in version of the tin front. The Edinburgh Holmes designed tin front replacement was unutterably ugly. As for the St Helens front, it was designed to give better visibility and Leyland saw it as being akin to the design on the current Vista lorry cab (which they shared with Dodge), thus giving a form of “house style”.
Phil Blinkhorn
03/10/12 – 10:12
One of the attractions of this site is the wide scope of observations from correspondents with differing interests. With my ‘operational’ background, my reaction at the illustration was, as others have commented, of a smart vehicle in attractive livery, but I wondered about the destination display. The route numbers are large and very readable, which was fine for locals who knew where they were going, but the actual destination box itself isn’t too helpful for passengers who needed to check their intended destination, and is out of proportion with the numerical display. The positioning of the number plates is distracting, and doesn’t make things easier for them.
Roy Burke
04/10/12 – 07:22
Philip, A reference in “Local Transport in St Helens 1879-1974” by TB Maund and MJ Ashton says “St Helens commissioned an unusual asymmetrical front which was subsequently used elsewhere and known as the ‘St Helens front’ “. As a passenger on St Helens Corporation and Crosville to school from 1961-68, I always assumed that St Helens Titans had fibreglass fronts because Fibreglass Ltd (a subsidiary of Pilkington Brothers) were based in St Helens. Thus, some Corporation spending was kept within the boundary and kept some local people in employment. This is something long-lost in our economy, much to the delight of Volvo, Scania etc.
Dave Farrier
04/10/12 – 13:35
On the subject of highly placed registration plates it may have been a geographical thing as both Trent and Barton also place them over the cab on double deckers.
Chris Hough
11/02/14 – 07:00
I worked for LCT for 5 years, and my understanding of the positioning of the number plates was that the body fitters were sick to death of having to refit them after minor shunts. So the chief engineer of the day, early 1960s, decreed that the damned things be removed to a higher place of safety. Presumably, other operators took the same view and for the same reason. A minor shunt, that maybe just dented the bottom of the grille, could be ignored until the next repaint, whereas damaged or missing number plates had to be attended to immediately or the vehicle was out of service until fixed.
Rob Haywood
11/08/14 – 07:16
The man looking at 164 is NOT Clive. It’s not me either but I did drive this to rallies when working for Leicester Museums and Clive Stevens worked for me. He still volunteers at Abbey Pumping Station Museum. We also drove the 1939 Renown, once all the way to Brighton.
Bob Bracegirdle
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
02/11/14 – 15:24
As an ex. LCT employee, 1956-61, I can confirm that the positioning of the front number plate between decks came about long before tin fronts – pre WW.II in fact. It was positioned there so that reconditioned radiators could be swapped between buses without the necessity to swap number plates.
Potteries Motor Traction 1960 Leyland Titan PD3/3 Willowbrook H39/34F
This was the last front engined bus delivered to PMT and was ordered by Baxters of Hanley who had sold out to PMT in December 1958. The Leyland PD/Willowbrook combination was clearly Baxters preferred design following on from the two Leyland PD2/20 supplied in 1955 and 1957. These two were of lowbridge layout (indeed as were all the double deckers taken over) and was also PMT’s preference due to the significant number of low railway bridges in the area. I wonder why then Baxters ordered this bus as a highbridge? The main batch of PD3s delivered to PMT had exposed radiators and this bus was one of only two delivered new with BMMO style concealed radiators. The other oddity was the vacuum braked specification which from discussions on this site about the stopping powers of PD3s would make this one even worse – but I can’t recall any driver complaints. It spent almost all its life operating from Biddulph Depot where I suppose the small number of drivers would be more likely to accept its idiosyncrasies. The bus is seen outside Stoke Depot in October 1969. It was withdrawn in 1971 and found its way inevitably to a Barnsley scrapyard.
I appreciate that ‘Bus Lists On The Web’ gives the seating as H39/34F, but 34 seems incredibly high for the lower deck capacity – the normal maximum for a 30′ front-engined forward-entrance double-decker being 31. Anyone any first-hand experience of this bus? Another thing I find surprising is the statement that it ‘inevitably’ found its way to a Barnsley scrapyard – high-capacity front-entrance double-deckers were almost unknown on the secondhand market in 1971, and I can’t help but think that there must have been a reason for this vehicle’s early withdrawal and scrapping.
David Call
21/11/12 – 14:47
I think you’re correct David, considering that PMT’s own PD3/4’s dated from 1957 and lasted a couple of years longer than this one. As you say, this would have made a sought after secondhand vehicle in 1971 and would perhaps have been snapped up by someone such as Berresfords of Cheddleton had it been sound. Berresfords did in fact acquire some ex-PMT PD3/4’s in 1973.
Chris Barker
21/11/12 – 17:30
After an accident too serious to warrant repair, perhaps? Then either directly to Barnsley or after spares recovery. I’d imagine there’s something in an issue of BUSES ILLUSTRATED of the time, if anyone has a copy.
Pete Davies
22/11/12 – 07:20
An even better source of information would be PSV Circle publication 3PD1 – PMT fleet history 1953-82
David Call
22/11/12 – 11:55
According to the book ‘A Century of North Staffordshire Buses’ this PD3 was ordered by Baxters as a lowbridge vehicle in 1958. Baxters were acquired by PMT in December 1958 and they were in time to change the specification to highbridge. Presumably it was originally intended to be rear entrance because I don’t think Willowbrook ever produced a 30ft lowbridge front entrance body, so perhaps the vehicle that we see was the best option for PMT, if they didn’t want another back loader. It appears to have been a normal withdrawal by PMT in December 1971 and after passing to Cowleys, was cut up for scrap. The ex-Becketts Northern Counties bodied Fleetline was withdrawn by PMT when only ten years old!
Potteries Motor Traction 1957 Leyland Titan PD2/20 Willowbrook L27/28R
This bus was new to Baxters of Hanley as their fleet number 11 in March 1957 and was acquired by PMT when they bought out the Baxter business in December 1958. It was somewhat different from the contemporary PMT purchased Leylands having a concealed radiator and rear entrance and by 1968 was one of only three double deckers in the fleet without platform doors. A similar but slightly older bus from the Baxter fleet became PMT L510 which was rebuilt with a MCW style top deck after an altercation with the notorious Glebe Street railway bridge adjacent to Stoke Station. L679 was allocated to Stoke Garage and is seen in Woodhouse Street outside its home depot on 10th October 1970. By this time it was normally only used for a morning and afternoon peak hour working on the Longton to Newcastle Estates group of services (numbers 98-103) where it was odd man out amongst the Atlanteans and Fleetlines. By the date of this photo was used in between peaks for driver training – note the slot for an L plate above the radiator grille. It became a permanent driver training vehicle in December 1972 and was withdrawn for disposal in 1976.
Would I be correct in thinking that these ex Baxters vehicles were the only PD2’s ever bodied by Willowbrook in this style? By 1957, Willowbrook had changed their design for deckers to the more rounded style, as on the Barton PS1 rebuilds and several deliveries to that design actually pre-date the vehicle shown. I believe the very last one to this ‘old’ design was a Daimler CVG6 supplied to Blue Bus Services in 1960.
Chris Barker
08/04/11 – 05:00
Yes I did a bit of driver training in this vehicle but I must admit I liked my normal training bus better which was LEH 745 L337 NCME body.
Michael Crofts
28/04/11 – 06:36
I passed my PSV test in 1968 on L337, I preferred my training turns on L466 (now preserved) as it had a sliding cab door which I was able to leave open. I remember struggling with hill starts on Penkhull New Road!! The Chief Instructor / Examiner was George Clews but I don’t remember the names of the other two Instructors. Rather unusually the Driving School reported to the Chief Engineer rather than the Traffic Manager.
Ian Wild
06/05/11 – 06:46
Hi Ian, Yes my instructor was George Clews but my examiner was from the D.O.T he took me into a cul-de-sac by mistake and I had a devil of a job doing a shunt to turn around with 337. Yes those were the days on Penkhull bank….
Photograph by ‘unknown’ if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
Tynemouth and District 1957 Leyland Titan PD2/12 Willowbrook H35/28R
I think many of the job lot of anonymous photos I purchased must have come from the same source as the same locations crop up on a regular basis. Once again we are at the Whitley Bay Bandstand Terminus of the service 8 to North Shields Ferry Landing. Its been mentioned before about the amount of freedom Northern General Transport allowed its subsidiaries, and here we have a typical example. This is a 1957 H35/28R Willowbrook bodied Leyland PD2/12, one of 5 bought by Tynemouth and District, they were AFT 49/53 fleet numbers 219/23. About this time Northern ordered quite a number of PD2’s, 12 were rear door Park Royal’s originally for Sunderland District but diverted to Northern for use on longer routes shared with United, the remainder were Orion bodied, but as far as I’m aware these were the only Willowbrook bodied versions. The photo would be no earlier than about 1960 as by now the bus has been repainted and the top is red, where as it would have been cream when first delivered. They had the same O600 engine as the later PD3’s and were much lighter and far livelier, but they did bounce quite a lot, especially when running light. However, they had one big advantage over the PD3, a prayer book was not necessary as they were a lot less reluctant to stop when asked to do so.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye
30/01/13 – 15:10
Nice view, Ronnie. Thanks for sharing. I agree entirely with your comments about the management style of the old Northern General. It continues today with the Go Ahead Group where, for example, it seems to be at the depot manager’s discretion whether the “We’re part of the Go Ahead Group” appears in the window or not. The opposite end of the scale when comparing with – certainly one of if not both – of the big groups based in Scotland!
Barton Transport 1957 Leyland Tiger PS1/B Willowbrook L61RD
This evocative shot was taken at the 2011 Heart of the Pennines event, and shows the splendid Willowbrook-bodied Tiger rebuild of 1957 arriving at The Piece Hall in Halifax. Not only did it look great, it sounded great too. Barton’s wonderful fleet had many of these rebuilds.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Les Dickinson
31/05/13 – 06:40
And luckily Les, we have the sound of one of them right here on this site. Time for another listen on the ‘Old Bus Sounds’ page!
Chris Barker
31/05/13 – 07:00
Yes, the Barton rebuilds, the Willowbrook batch were modern-looking with clean lines, but then, see how the rear wheels were set well in, betraying their 7`6 heritage. Looking around inside, they were obviously an economy product – very basic lightweight construction and lots of brown paint, but surely that was their specification and in that respect they delivered. I first encountered this one parked outside Loughborough Central station years ago, and was amazed to realise it had survived, a Barton rebuild!! Never thought I would see one again.
Later, I encountered it again, and I attach one of my pics, here at the LVVS open day in November 2010, where it was a regular performer on trips into Lincoln City Centre but here parked among representatives of many past decades. Needless to say, I contrived to be aboard for some of these journeys, and the sound effects revived old memories. On the straight sections, it managed to trigger off the 30mph warning signs.
Rob Hancock
31/05/13 – 17:58
Was the need for the extra short top deck bay structural as it spoils an otherwise well balanced design?
Phil Blinkhorn
31/05/13 – 17:59
I recall about 1964 one of these was hired for an evening educational visit from Long Eaton Grammar School to Breedon on the Hill, out beyond Castle Donington on the old A453. It was a novel experience, as the arched 13ft 9in headroom railway bridge at Sawley Junction (now Long Eaton) station precluded the use of double deckers on the service buses (3, 3C, 10 and 11) that went in that direction. [Most of you will know that the experimental lowbridge layout Dennis Loline 861HAL was a bid to overcome this obstacle, but as even 861 had to take the centre of the road to clear the bridge, its use in service was not permitted – otherwise, who knows, there might have been a fleet of them.] Anyway, back to the Tiger rebuild, our trip left Long Eaton by Derby Road to Breaston, where it turned sharp left over the Old Sawley level crossing, to reach the A453 after a detour of 2 or 3 miles.
Stephen Ford
01/06/13 – 06:23
Phil, I tend to agree with you about the extra short bay spoiling the balance of the design. These vehicles were built to PS1 length and no doubt Willowbrook used their standard length window bays and needed to stick in an extra bit to make up the greater length. The following batch however were bodied by Northern Counties to a nice four bay design and looked much neater. I liked them both though and I had some memorable journeys on them in the early 1970’s on the X42 Derby – Nottingham express via the A52 by-pass!
Chris Barker
24/08/13 – 06:17
I was looking through Eddie Collings collection of photos for something and came across the above shot. It is WAL 782 not in Barton livery, it is in preservation and looking at other shots it is at a rally, more than likely down south with the Hastings trolleybus behind it. Was it in service with another operator between Barton and preservation this may explain the different livery.
Peter
29/04/14 – 08:20
These PD1s were always second rate vehicles, still at school l travelled on one on its maiden voyage, school run, later l worked for Barton Transport Ltd and sad to say 6 weeks redundancy under Trent, urrgh, l was in the engine shop, l was for a long time oil engineer (oil changes) l got top money for an unskilled job, but l could do breakdowns recovery the best later on nights running repairs emergency PSV driving, recovery and breakdowns, local and distance, l done the very last run to Skegness with a decker 823, a PD2, l hate the day Trent took us over the family and staff did not want it, have many things to remember it by and my full uniform still fits,
Bill Redfern
29/04/14 – 16:45
A (very) belated reply to Peter’s query on intermediate owners of WAL 782. According to the PSVC fleet history, 782 was sold to Ensign in 1974; then to Williams, Llangollen, Hollis Queensferry and Cross Roads Travel, Warrington in fairly quick time, before passing to preservationists in Kent in 1978, moving within preservation by 1996 in the Medway area. In recent years it was owned by Quantock MS; I believe it is currently owned by the Barton family, as part of their collection.
Bob Gell
30/04/14 – 07:22
It looks as if it could have been in poppy red and white. Heaven forbid!
Chris Barker
25/05/14 – 14:41
I’ve been going through the “Past Comments” and found this entry which I seem to have missed previously. I note comments about her history. Above is a view of her with Durrant, Sidcup, whilst in the Southsea Spectacular on 8 June 1980. Relax, folks, not poppy red as Chris feared! I believe she was actually new to Bolton Corporation, before her time with Barton.
Pete Davies
25/05/14 – 17:41
The only information I have managed to unearth on the net says that the chassis of WAL 782 was new in 1948 to Knowles & Son of Bolton, registered CWH 262, carrying a Santus C33F coach body. One of the sources is the Classic Bus Website, which is reasonably trustworthy. The chassis is given as PS1/1 – does PS1/B (top of this page) indicate a Barton rebuild? If so, whose designation is it? I haven’t come across any suggestion that Barton used the vehicle in its coach form, but someone with a Barton fleet history should be able to say one way or the other.
David Call
30/05/14 – 13:04
The Circle fleet history of Barton confirms David’s information above – new in 1/48 as CWH 262 to Knowles of Bolton, with a Santus C33F body; to Enterprise Motors (Blackpool) Ltd in 5/53; then to Goulding and Smyth, Hooton, Cheshire and to Millburn Motors, Preston (dealer), who sold it to Barton. I doubt if it ran for Barton as acquired – more likely it was simply a source of a chassis for rebodying. According to Alan Oxley’s book on Barton, relaxation of the double deck length to 30 feet allowed PS1 chassis from 27’6” to be rebuilt as double deckers and comply with regulations. He also states 782 and others, were standard Leyland PS1 products, which Barton coded for their own reference as PS1/B. The Circle fleet history records the chassis number as the original Leyland number with a B prefix.
Bob Gell
30/05/14 – 14:43
What do we know about Santus? I’ve never heard of them.
Chris Hebbron
30/05/14 – 15:05
Santus was a coach builder based in Wigan, along with Northern Counties and Massey. At one time there was a preserved Wigan Corporation Leyland Tiger (TS4?) with a Santus body. There was an article in Classic Bus magazine a few years ago about the firm. Apparently there is no connection between the Santus body builder and another firm of the same name also in Wigan which made toffees! Unfortunately I cannot now recall the fate of the Santus body-building company, only that they built saloons and coaches in pre-war days, and possibly early post-war. Can’t access the magazine article at present – Sorry.
Michael Hampton
30/05/14 – 18:13
There is a bit more about Santus on this site- a Bedford OB, it is thought (!) on the Isles of Scilly.
Joe
30/05/14 – 18:14
So, once again, my sources of information are found wanting (NOT Bolton CT!)
The Santus-bodied Tiger is indeed a TS4, and I attach a view of her at the WETC open day on 7 October 2012
Pete Davies
30/05/14 – 18:17
Chris, our very well informed fellow contributor to this site, Neville Mercer, has given some information about Santus under the OBP entry for Vics Tours (Isles of Scilly) – Bedford OB.
Roger Cox
31/05/14 – 08:06
Well, once again my knowledge of something somewhat obscure has been satisfied by some knowledgeable folk. Thank you all. Remarkable that Wigan had at least three bus bodybuilders. Did Wigan Corporation show local loyalty by buying examples from all three companies?
Chris Hebbron
01/06/14 – 09:33
Yes Chris, Wigan did support all three Wigan coach builders in pre-war days. I’ve checked my Leyland Society book on the Leylands of Wigan Corporation. This shows Leyland TD1’s purchased and bodied by Leyland itself, plus the three Wigan builders in 1931. Santus also figures as the builder of single-deckers on TS4 and TS7 chassis, like the one shown earlier, now preserved. I think it owes it’s survival to being used as a library for several years. However after 1936, the Corporation used only NCME and Massey, and Leyland itself for its contracts. One batch was bodied by English Electric in 1939. Post-war, the body builder spread continued to be Leyland, NCME and Massey, but not Santus. The book I referred to doesn’t mention any reason for the Corporation excluding Santus from the order book in the later 1930’s. Apparently those supplied were to and “old fashioned” appearance, but this seems to have been a Wigan requirement, and also applied to those buses supplied by the other manufacturers. This still applied to the 1937 TD4s, whose bodied closely followed the 1929 Leyland TD1 design (piano front, etc)!
Michael Hampton
Chris, Wigan Corporation did indeed show loyalty to local manufacturers, as I believe that from 1929 onwards (apart possibly from wartime allocations) it sourced chassis solely from Leyland, and bodywork from either Northern Counties or Massey Brothers, although I’m not sure how many Santus-bodied buses it operated. However, it was no doubt prudent of the Corporation to help the local economy in this way, as many of the bodybuilders’ employees were likely to use the Corporation’s buses to get to and from work etc, thus helping swell the council’s coffers.
Brendan Smith
01/06/14 – 09:35
Certainly not post-war Chris H because Santus didn’t build double deckers. You really should have a look at their coaches though because they were quite unlike any others, I’ve always had a fascination for them and it’s a pity that there are no survivors but build quality put paid to that. They did body just about every chassis going though even if few of them had long lives, I suppose this Barton PS1 was typical, lasting less than ten years with it’s coach body. It was actually revealed after the article in Classic Bus that the coach building and the confectionery business were in fact related so even though there are no remaining coaches, at least you can treat yourself to a bag of Uncle Joe’s Mint Balls!
Chris Barker
02/06/14 – 07:24
Perhaps the excessive amount of sugar in the mint balls help to speed the decay of the vehicle body. Oh, we’re wandering off topic again!
Pete Davies
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
02/06/14 – 07:26
There is an example of postwar Santus coachwork in preservation, an unusual Seddon Mk IV registered DPR 518. It’s not been active for some time and I only discovered recently that it’s owned by someone I know (albeit not too well). I understand work is progressing on it very well. With 74 PD1s and 42 PD2s with Leyland bodies and the first postwar Northern Counties and Massey double-deckers not delivered until 1956/7 I wouldn’t actually describe Wigan as loyal to the coachbuilders of the town. They bought just a handful of single-deckers prior to 1956, all with Northern Counties bodies. They clearly liked the Leyland body.
David Beilby
03/06/14 – 07:40
Well David that will ‘learn me’ to read my books more thoroughly, and also to clean my glasses more frequently. When I fished out my book on Northern Counties again, regarding Wigan Corporation it states that from 1930 onwards “bodywork was always built in the County Of Lancashire, and more often than not, supplied by either Northern Counties or Massey Brothers of Wigan”. It was the “more often than not” that failed to register I’m afraid. I should have remembered the Leyland-bodied Leyland Titan PDs, which might have prompted me to think more broadly with ‘local’ meaning Lancashire rather than solely Wigan!
Photograph by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
East Midland Motor Services 1958 Leyland Tiger Cub PSUC1/2 Willowbrook DP41F
Not an operator I know very much about but on researching this particular vehicle it would appear that it started its life with a fleet number of C40. I have come across a photo of XRR 535 C35 which was in a livery of all Cream with a single coloured band below the window did this vehicle start life as cream coach? I am not sure what their prefix fleet letters stood for “C” For coach “D” for double decker I can guess at but “R” “O” “L” which were for single deckers do not mean much to me. If you know please leave a comment. It would appear that East Midland at one time had a livery of Chrome Yellow for the body, Cream for the lower saloon windows and Chocolate for the upper saloon windows and roof I bet that looked good, has anyone seen a colour shot. The livery at the time that the shot above was taken was Dark Red and Cream but that changed to Dark Green in the early seventies.
I recall the original livery which was very distinctive! It was almost art deco- very thirties- and then went into a sort of drab utility maroon. The green was presumably NBC….?
Joe
I vaguely remember these vehicles from my Sheffield childhood (on the Derbyshire border, towards Chesterfield). I quite liked the maroon and cream – because I was not then aware of the original livery, which had disappeared by the time I was old enough to be aware of these things. It is possible that this livery was derived from that of Underwoods – the firm which became East Midland under BET control. The original livery adorned a RM in the short time that they plied the roads of Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire. Over a period of time – in BET times – East Midland became joint owner, along with Yorkshire Traction and North Western, of one of the greatest coach tour operators – nearby Sheffield United Tours. East Midland became one of my favourite operators – which I used regularly – and I was sad when NBC leaf green replaced the drab maroon. This was especially so when my favourite (J – M) registered RE coaches lost their cream and maroon for NBC corporate livery.
David Oldfield
In 1977, long before the RM already mentioned, East Midland repainted an Alexander bodied Fleetline in the old brown/cream/yellow livery to commemorate their 50th anniversary. One of the 1965 batch, but can’t recall which one. It should also be mentioned that the famous bus photographer Roy Marshall (who once worked in Nottingham and was thus familiar with EMMS’s original livery) later became the General Manager of Burnley & Pendle and adopted the same colour scheme for several of that Lancashire undertaking’s vehicles including some Y-type bodied Leopards and at least one VRT3/ECW double-decker. Going off at a slight tangent, Roy Marshall also did a stint as the boss of Gelligaer UDC’s fleet and when he moved to East Staffordshire (Burton-on-Trent Corporation as it used to be) he repainted this Midland fleet in Gelligaer’s old livery of green, red, and white – a vast improvement over the gloomy maroon and cream previously used by Burton. Does anybody know of any further examples where migrating General Managers have ‘taken the livery with them’?
Neville Mercer
Can’t remember which way round it was but Halifax and Glasgow shared a livery due to a demonstrator in one fleet being borrowed by the operator who liked the livery and adopted it themselves. There is also the apocryphal story of legal action when someone saw the old Bostock’s livery, liked it, adopted it and upset Bostock’s.
I also vaguely remember the Fleetline, now that Neville mentions it.
Trivia: Can anyone explain why, with a head office in Chesterfield, all East Midland buses had Nottinghamshire registrations?
David Oldfield
The 1965 edition of BBF5 says that the R prefix was for 30-foot long dual purpose vehicles, but that can’t be right because it shows all the bus-seated 30-footers with R prefixes as well. L meant long – i.e. 36 feet. Joining Neville on his tangent for a moment, did Geoffrey Hilditch once set up a coach fleet at Aberdare using Halifax livery? Or did I dream that? The memory does feel very much like a dream . . .
Peter Williamson
According to the Prestige Series book on East Midland (excellent B&W photographs by G H F Atkins; text by John Banks) the old livery was derived from United, who abandoned it in 1930 in favour of red and cream. The company was originally W T Underwood of Clowne, but with strong backing from United (virtually a subsidiary).
As for the alpha-numeric number series, the type-series letter seems to have been allocated in a rather haphazard fashion. Note that only the single-deckers were distinguished in this way. All of the double-deckers were just series D, irrespective of chassis or body manufacturer.
However, unravelling the tangle it seems this is how it went for the single deckers (Are you sitting comfortably? Then I shall begin!) :
G -50 x ADC 416A (Short Bros.) 1927 -series allocated to EM by United M -10 x AEC Reliance (Lowestoft – later ECW) 1929 -series allocated to EM by United N -10 x AEC Regal (Short Bros) 1930 (some rebodied 1939 with Leyland bodies taken from 1935 TS7s, i.e. type B) L -20 x AEC Regal (Brush) 1931 (of which 3 were coaches, designated LC) L -? x AEC Regal 4 (Brush) 1933-34 C -5 x Leyland KP2 Cub 1934 B -20 x Leyland TS7 (10 Brush; 10 Leyland) 1935 (4 Brush rebodied 1949 by Willowbrook re-designated type N) B -14 x Leyland TS7 (5 Brush; 1 Burlingham coach; 8 Leyland) 1936 E -30 x Leyland TS7 (ECW dual purpose) 1937 (6 rebodied 1948 by Willowbrook re-designated type N) F -11 x Leyland TS7 (ECW bus) 1938 A -10 x AEC Regal (Weymann) 1946 A -14 x AEC Regal III (Third-hand ! Leyland bodies) 1947-48 (rebodied 1952 by Willowbrook and re-designated type K) AC -2 x AEC Regal III (Windover coach) 1948 H -? x AEC Regal III (Weymann) 1949 J -? x AEC Regal III (Willowbrook) 1950 R -All underfloor engine buses from 1952-62 (all Leyland chassis) C (Second time round) -All underfloor engine coaches and dual-purpose from 1954 onwards. L -? x Leyland Leopard buses from 1963 (Willowbrook) O -? x Bristol buses from 1969 (ECW)
N (Second time round!) -various re-bodies (see above) also 10 second hand Leyland TS7s purchased from YWD 1949 and subsequently re-bodied by Willowbrook.
Please note that this is not comprehensive, and takes no account of vehicles absorbed through takeover. There were certainly 5 x Bristol L5G (ECW) in 1938 and 2 x Bedford WTB (Duple) in 1939, for which no type letter is quoted.
Stephen Ford
Someone mentioned East Midland having a Fleetline in the old brown livery. This was in fact an Atlantean PD1/2 fleet no D177 registration BNN 177C. Chesterfield Corporation also had Nottingham registrations as well.
Alan Ridge
Chesterfield Corporation had NU and RA registrations – Derbyshire CC.
David Oldfield
R -All underfloor engine buses from 1952-62 (all Leyland chassis) Some of these were in fact AEC chassis and the last 3 R496 R497 & R498 were AEC chassis and the same bodies as the L400 (400 RRR) series Leylands. The O series were one batch of AEC Swifts O501 to O510. (NAL 501F to 505F then OAL 506F to 510F) Marshall Bodies, Bristol RE’s with single doors. O511 to O522. ECW. Bristol RE’s with single doors. O523 to O532. I think these had Marshall Bodies, I know that they had a strange 3 X 2 arrangement for the rear two rows of seats. Bristol RE’s with single doors. O533 to O541. Leyland engines and Marshall bodies. I have not heard any news of it, but CRR 537J O537 was preserved, somewhere around Derby. Bristol RE’s with Dual doors. O542 to O556. ECW bodies. I think O545 was the last red and cream East Midland bus, around 1975/6
Ian Couzens
10/07/12 – 06:44
The question raised about registration numbers being issued in Nottinghamshire. It was from the days of the head office being in Worksop. Why on moving to Chesterfield it was not changed I don’t know. Hope this helps/ Don’t forget Clowne was also head office prior to Worksop.
Ian Bennett
10/07/12 – 09:17
In response to Nevilles question above re migrating General Managers. When Vane-Morland moved from Walsall to Leeds he brought their blue livery with him prior to this the trams and buses were yellow and white or a deep Prussian blue rather than the flatter slate blue that became standard in the thirties.
Chris Hough
26/07/12 – 07:44
The vehicle in the above photograph was taken over the pit at Worksop bus garage on Allen Street Worksop.
Can anyone remember how many routes East Midland had that ran into Pond Street Sheffield in the 70s, there was number 3 from Mansfield, number 46 from Clowne via Killamarsh, number 18 from Eckington, and there was also an EM bus from Gainsbrough.
Big Jim
04/04/17 – 07:15
You’re right about the 3 and 46. There was also the long-established 99 to Chesterfield via Ford and Staveley. Also in the 60s and until 1971 there was the 62/64 to Chesterfield via Eckington. These were joint with Chesterfield and Sheffield JOC. By 1971 there was also the X53, which was an extended express version of the 3. This ran to Nottingham via Mansfield and was joint with Trent. The Gainsborough route was the 85 – originally a Sheffield ‘C’ fleet (railways-owned) route but which became a joint Sheffield/East Midland/Lincolnshire route when the British Railways interest in the Sheffield B and C fleets ended.
John May
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
19/07/17 – 11:00
Just been told that the old EMMS bus garage at Retford was demolished in 1992,in the 70s it held a fleet of 25 buses and coaches, Worksop is now the last remaining original depot.
Isle of Man Road Services Ltd 1961 Leyland Tiger Cub PSUC1/1 Willowbrook DP41F
Here is a shot I took of a bus at the Isle of Man Airport in 1966, I took it at the same time 1966 as the Isle of Man Road Services Leyland Titan posted two weeks ago. As stated on that post I know very little about buses more a railways man so I will leave it to anyone who wants to comment to do so.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Michael Bishop
29/05/12 – 17:45
When the Stratford Blue operations were absorbed into the main Midland Red Company in 1971, PMT was able acquire five almost identical Willowbrook bodied Tiger Cubs to the one pictured here. Four were DP, one was bus seated. Originally Stratford Blue 41-45 (2741-2745 AC) they were new in 1959. They were a bit slow compared with the PMTs own AEC Reliance 470s but performed useful work on some of the flatter routes from Stoke and Newcastle Depots and they didn’t suffer from frequent cylinder head gasket failures! The Albion designed five speed constant mesh gearbox was quite a nice unit to handle – but then I didn’t have to work them on One Man Operation for a shift!
Ian Wild
30/05/12 – 07:23
This bus is now preserved on the Isle of Man
Chris Hough
31/05/12 – 08:18
Yes, Ian, interesting point you make. Despite a general superiority, the AECs had an Achilles heel – the wet-liner engine (AH470 and AH590). Leyland produced two mainstream engines, the 0.600 and the Leyland Comet engine which progressed from 0.350 to 0.375 to 0.400. The Comet engine was small, underpowered and noisy but did it’s job reliably. Regulars know my predilection for AECs but also my, not quite equal, admiration of Leyland (Motors). The wet-liners did a lot of harm to AEC’s erstwhile superb reputation and allowed the Leopard to subsequently overtake them in the market.
In his comment upon Michael Bishop’s posting of the Isle of Man Road Services Leyland Tiger Cub with a Willowbrook DP41F, Ian Wild refers to the very similar Stratford Blue Leyland PSUC1/1 Tiger Cubs. Pictured in August 1970, this is No.44, 2745 AC, the one with the Willowbrook B45F body – the other four had DP41 seating configuration – and, I think, it is our first picture on the site of a Stratford Blue bus. The early history of the company is rather complicated, but by 1931 it was operating as a Balfour Beatty group business with second hand vehicles, as Balfour Beatty refused to finance new purchases. In 1935 the BET group assumed control, with management passing to BMMO, a situation that continued until the BET sold out to NBC in 1969. NBC set about absorbing its newly acquired smaller operators into the bigger neighbouring companies. From 1st January 1971, Midland Red assumed full control of Stratford Blue, and buses were progressively repainted into the BMMO overall red livery. Here is a link to read the full history of Stratford Blue.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
15/07/12 – 08:08
What a beautiful glossy finish. You don’t see that very often – and you rarely saw it in NBC days. It seems strange to me that some operators manage to keep this sort of finish and others can’t. It can’t simply be the difference between whether vehicles are hand or machine washed.
David Oldfield
15/07/12 – 12:44
On that point, David, when I was with Tynemouth and Wakefields, prior to NBC all Northern group buses were hand painted, this involved several coats of primer and paint followed by a final coat of varnish, the drawback was cost and the fact that the whole process took about 10 days, these days much of what you see is just stuck on graphics. cost effective, but no where near as good a finish.
Ronnie Hoye
15/07/12 – 12:44
A very nice photo of a small’ish concern who always took a pride in their vehicles and ploughed their own furrow, in spite of being a BMMO subsidiary for some 40-odd years. They were great advocates of Tilling-Stevens B10’s before the war and I recall visiting an aunt around 1949-50 and seeing these strange-sounding antiques. I didn’t fully appreciate them, truth be told. Later, they were equally keen Leyland users, of which the above is a good example. Peter Gould’s website contains a potted history, taken from the book “Stratford-upon-Avon Blue Motor Services Remembered”, by David Harvey.
Chris Hebbron
16/07/12 – 06:28
I can’t help thinking that the picture gives a good impression of how Samuel Ledgard’s fleet would have looked if they had taken similar vehicles.
Chris Barker
16/07/12 – 06:29
It certainly does look in remarkably good fettle for an 11 year old bus – one could easily believe that the photo was taken to mark its first day in service. As Chris states, despite being under the wing of Midland Red, they went their own way – especially regarding vehicle policy. Their BET Federation style PS1’s and Tiger Cubs, and the Northern Counties rebodied PS2’s were more reminiscent of Yorkshire Traction – a company about as far removed from Stratford Blue as I can imagine. I’ve heard it said that the BET Group retained some smaller outfits such as Stratford Blue, Hebble and Mexborough & Swinton in order to allow junior managers to gain experience and prove themselves on a small scale before being let loose with a larger company.
John Stringer
16/07/12 – 12:18
You’re right in what you say, John, whenever United ‘Tilling Group’ took over a company everything was changed to a standard procedure, where as Northern General ‘BET’ allowed companies to retain their name, different livery, and a certain amount of independence, in some cases this even went as far as vehicle spec, take the PD3’s for example ‘livery apart’ although outwardly the Orion bodied examples all looked the same, but the Percy Main vehicles were totally different from the rest inside, and the Sunderland District ones were Burlingham bodied. This all changed with NBC, the ‘Corporate Image Brigade’ stepped in, the names went one by one, and some splendid liveries were cast aside to be replaced by drab poppy red or vomit green dependant on where you live
Ronnie Hoye
16/07/12 – 18:20
Only one word to say about the photo – stunning, absolutely stunning! That’s three, but who’s counting. As others have said, a beautiful livery – strange how something as basic as blue and cream can look beautiful, but it did – immaculately presented on a classic design. In addition ‘Stratford-upon-Avon Blue Motors’ has such a wonderful ring from a more elegant age. And Ronnie, I agree with every word you say about Northern Group liveries. I was sad when Gateshead adopted green and cream in 1964 thereby making them look the same as Tyneside; I may have been in a minority in loving the old maroon/brown and cream but I thought it was really smart and it was distinctive. In mentioning the end of separate liveries with inception of NBC you might also have mentioned the revolting yellow which got slapped all over buses based in Tyne and Wear soon afterwards; strange how Newcastle Corporation’s yellow and cream looked really smart and yet Tyne and Wear’s didn’t seem to look good on anything!
Alan Hall
17/07/12 – 06:55
Another well-kept vehicle in a small fleet despite, as others have said, being a division of Midland Red for so many years. Looking closely at the picture reminds me that Stratford Blue were among a very small number of (usually small) operators who used the service number box to display the name.
Pete Davies
17/07/12 – 06:56
I may be mistaken, but I think Stratford Blue were wound up after pay/conditions were brought into line with BMMO – there was a strike about this issue. Why the company couldn’t have been allowed to continue with staff on an equal footing with the parent escapes me, but then around this time NBC was intent on wrapping-up its smaller operations – were there administrative costs, such as posting of accounts, involved in running subsidiary companies? Whatever, it was a shame to have lost a “blue company” – although NBC’s (lack of!) policy on corporate blue liveries would have seen to that in due course anyway. Red “Statford Blue”?: reminds me of when Western National was split by NBC and Bob Montgomery had those members of his new North Devon operation – trading as Red Bus [sic] – which were still in Leaf Green lettered as “This is a RED BUS” (as opposed to the “RED BUS” fleetnames on the red members of the fleet). “This is still a STRATFORD BLUE bus” (on Poppy Red vehicles) doesn’t have the same ring though. Although with NBCs policy of shortening fleetnames – Cheltenham District/Cheltenham, Bath Services/Bath, Maidstone & District/Maidstone (on coaches), Mansfield District/Mansfield – red “Stratford” buses wouldn’t have been so silly. Back to the bus though – the whole thing’s just right isn’t it? livery, vehicle design/proportions . . . and a nice linen destination blind – class. But does anybody know why Stratford Blue was “allowed” to pursue a Leyland-based vehicle buying policy? One assumes that the Directors were all senior BMMO officers, so why didn’t they insist on purchase of BMMO products? Was it because the Leyland purchases by Stratford Blue provided a bench-mark against which BMMO products could be judged, as I’ve read? – but then they weren’t being operated over comparable routes and BMMO operated Leyland vehicles in its own fleet anyway; or was it because BMMO couldn’t meet its own requirements from internal production and Stratford Blue had, of necessity, to look elsewhere?
Philip Rushworth
17/07/12 – 06:57
Alan, I prefer not to think about the NBC version of T&W yellow, and the PTE went on a very expensive experiment with various layouts of Newcastle Corporation’s original livery only to end up with something not a million miles from where they started, in fact I would be surprised if most of the population of Newcastle knew the difference.
Ronnie Hoye
17/07/12 – 08:19
…..but just be thankful that you didn’t end up with something like South Yorkshire’s “Coffee and cream”! Even when the coffee was strengthened, it wasn’t a patch on Sheffield’s cream with blue livery and it only became vaguely bearable with the eventual addition a red.
David Oldfield
17/07/12 – 12:41
Yes, the right combination/shade of blue and white/cream do make a very attractive buss. My Western Travel post shows a dual-purpose Gloucester Bristol RELH6L in similar guise, although their bog-standard all-over blue with thin white stripe between decks looked uninspiring.
Chris Hebbron
17/07/12 – 12:41
Chris B – how right you are with the Ledgard comparison – in fact there was once an edition of an Ian Allan publication which featured a Stratford PD2 and I for one had to glance again quickly, thinking that it was a Ledgard view. I can’t just recall whether it was a “Buses Illustrated” or one of the annuals.
Chris Youhill
28/07/12 – 08:36
A lovely picture but it would be a mistake to think this is representative of how Stratford Blue buses looked in their later years – what it does show is No. 44 fresh from the paint shop in the blue and white livery that replaced the earlier blue and cream from 1969 onwards. In their later years the Tiger Cubs were unreliable, unloved and often unkempt, and consideration was given to replacing them with used buses from elsewhere, but it never happened. There were 14 Tiger Cubs in the fleet, with Willowbrook, Park Royal and Marshall bodies. They all passed to Midland Red on 1 January 1971 but were withdrawn by May, despite two of them having been repainted red – mostly replaced by the newly delivered Ford R192s. As to Stratford Blue’s quasi-autonomous existence the answer probably lay with BET headquarters rather than with Midland Red, but it has never been fully explained and probably never will be. Although Stratford Blue bought Leylands almost exclusively from 1948 to 197 (82 in total), Midland Red bought more in 1952/53 alone, with their 100 LD8-class Titan PD2s. Final comment on this photo is that Warwick was rarely seen as a destination on a Stratford Blue bus – the hourly 90A from Stratford to Leamington passed through the town, but very few journeys finished there. This was most likely a schools journey.
Bob Telfer
28/12/12 – 13:48
Just to say Kineton depot of Stratford Blue used white ticket rolls as did Stratford unless on local service then we had to change to pink.
Bill Floyd
29/12/12 – 18:13
I may be imagining this, but there looks to me to be a conductor on board who is in the process of winding the destination blind – this would explain the ‘unlikely’ destination and the fact that it appears badly set. The ‘PAYE’ sign doesn’t look to be illuminated.
David Call
20/07/14 – 07:15
Just to say Leyland Cub fleet number 44 reg no 2745 AC finished its days in the brook through bridge on Kineton to Radway Rd driver they say lost control DD number 31 turned over on Bourdon Hill towards Stratford this was a converted SD.
Bill Floyd
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
09/06/17 – 06:27
I am trying to find out when Stratford Blue re-livered/painted their Leyland PD double deckers and included the newer Stratford Blue logo. I believe that originally the mudguards were black and at this time were re-painted blue, also the roof colour changed. I think it was in the early 1960’s but can’t find anything definite about it in the various books published on SB. Hope that you can help or point me in the right direction please.
