Tag: Willowbrook

PMT – AEC Reliance – 761 CVT – C8761

PMT - AEC Reliance - 761 CVT - C8761

Potteries Motor Traction
1958
AEC Reliance 470
Willowbrook C41F

PMT had five of these coaches plus one similar acquisition on a Leyland Tiger Cub chassis from the takeover of Dawsons, Ash Bank. They suffered as always with AH470 engines with cylinder head gasket and wet liner seal failures. This is why this photo was taken adjacent to Llandrindod Wells Railway Station on a summer evening in June 1971. A similar Reliance had taken a party of Scouts on a weeks expedition to Tenby and inevitably the engine had failed in South Wales. I was summoned at short notice to take a replacement vehicle arriving at South Wales Transport Ravenhill Depot shortly before midnight. I chose the scenic route rather than the M6/M5 as I didn’t fancy becoming another engine failure casualty at the side of the Motorway. During 1971 and 1972 three of these Reliances were modified for one man operation and repainted in bus livery. The conversion included jack knife doors the motor for which would only fit in the space occupied by the nearside front passenger seat hence reducing the capacity to 39. As the vehicles were 13/14 years old by this time one wonders if it was really worth the effort. I recall 762 which was allocated to Biddulph Depot put in some quite respectable mileages as an omo saloon.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

16/11/14 – 09:44

An odd design which seems to transition from the early 1950s at the front to the late 1950s at the rear.

Phil Blinkhorn

16/11/14 – 11:21

JCN 449

Northern General had a batch of very similar C37F Willowbrook Viking coaches on an AEC Reliance 2MU3RV chassis, so as I understand it, they would have had the larger AH590 engine. Delivered in 1959, they were JCN 445 to 454, numbered 1845 to 1854. About 1967, it was decided to convert them for use as OPO vehicles, but the changes were far more radical. I don’t know if the conversion was carried out ‘in-house’ or whether they went back to Willowbrook to be done, but the whole front end was chopped off, and a new service front grafted on, I believe they were also up-seated to 41. Here is an example of the end result, I believe they remained in service until around 1975

Ronnie Hoye

16/11/14 – 18:03

Were the gasket/liner problems eventually cured by AEC?

Chris Hebbron

17/11/14 – 06:47

In a word, Chris – No! AEC’s involvement with wet liners began in 1935 with the introduction of the ‘6.6’ A172 engine (actually of 6.75 litres) in the lightweight Regal II. This engine proved to be decidedly troublesome, and the wet liner problems were carried through into its postwar ranges developed from about 1953. In the end, AEC reverted to dry liners in the AV/AH 505/691/760 engines. By contrast, Dennis employed wet liners in its ‘Big 4’ petrol and O4/O6 diesels from the mid 1930s onwards, and all were generally free of the troubles that plagued the AEC efforts.

Roger Cox

17/11/14 – 06:47

2MU3RV was still the AH470, Ronnie – 2U3RA was the AH590. Both of these had wet liners and gasket head problems. The AH691 and AH760 were new dry liner engines which did not have the same problems. Sadly the reputation was tarnished and many did not return to AEC. Also, like the later Leyland Panther, others persevered and overcame the problems.

David Oldfield

17/11/14 – 09:51

Thx, Roger. It’s amazing, from what you say, that folk continued to buy AEC’s with these engines, if they were so troublesome, although I admit that post-war distress purchasing would retain undeserved loyalty to a large extent. Were LTE’s engines of this type? I’ve never heard of problems with those Incidentally, did AEC/Leyland ever offer ‘outside’ engine options at ordering stage, such as Gardner? I’ve never heard of any, but who knows?
David O, strange that, following on with gasket/wet liner problems, which existed for decades, AEC cured Crossley’s engine breathing problem within months!

Chris Hebbron

17/11/14 – 11:37

The AV (vertical) engines never suffered to the same extent as the horizontal AH engines and substantially LTE had no problems with RMs (once the teething problems were ironed out) – including the AV590. Neither did Sheffield with its Regent Vs and Bridgemasters. [In passing, the AV version of the AH691 was actually a wet-liner and really an “out-boring” of the AV590.] It is surprising that they carried on so long before they eventually reverted to dry-liners – and as I said lost friends along the way. Those who stayed were rewarded by the AH691/760. AEC were not alone in having problems with putting an engine on its side. I am a “fan” of the O.600/O.680 – but this was not without its problems either – as Stephen Barber has alluded to in his Wallace Arnold Books. Conversely, there was enough faith in the later AEC engines to offer them, initially, as an option, in Series 2 REs and VRTs. The famous Werner Heubeck at Citybus who force BL to continue the RE for Northern Ireland was known to be very interested in an AH691 RE but BL back out at the last minute and cancelled the option – much to Heubeck’s anger. [Something similar is thought to have happened with the VRT – when someone showed interest, the option was withdrawn.] As for Gardners, there were the famous Rochdale D2RAG Regent Vs and the less famous Glasgow and Aberdeen D2RVG Regent Vs.

David Oldfield

17/11/14 – 16:50

Huddersfield JOC took delivery of 16 Regent’s and 37 Regal’s with 6LW engines between 1935 and 1939.

Eric Bawden

17/11/14 – 17:19

Forgot those, Eric. Crossley engines were another, and simpler, matter. AEC basically knew the problem – Crossley refused to pay royalties to Saurer and so mangle the design of the piston/cylinder head to make it different. AEC simply came up with a design which solved the problem without infringing the rights of Saurer. [I’m not an engineer, so I cannot elucidate.]

David Oldfield

18/11/14 – 06:23

As I have always understood it, the bored out 11.3 litre version of the AEC AV590 wet liner engine was the AV690, which was introduced at the same time in 1958. It was most commonly employed in commercial vehicle models such as the Mammoth Major V and in many export PSV’s, but was optional in the 2D version of the Regent V, and in horizontal AH690 form in the 2U and 4U larger Reliances, though it was not differentiated in the model designation.
The AV/AH691 was the 11.3 litre dry liner engine which was announced in late 1964 at the same time as its smaller equivalent the AV/AH505. The AV691 was then offered as an option in the Regent V and Renown, models, which were then designated Regent 691 (prefixed 3D) and Renown 691 (prefixed 4B) though none of the latter were built.

John Stringer

18/11/14 – 06:23

David, the wet liner 11.3 litre was the AV/AH 690. The 691 was a dry liner in vertical and horizontal formats. Even the switch to dry liners did not resolve AEC’s engine reputation. The AV/AH 505 in particular soon revealed weaknesses in service. A cover plate was fitted on the top of the block under the cylinder head, and this plate was held in place by a number of set screws. The inevitable expansion and contraction of this component in service caused the screws to fail, leaving a hole that allowed coolant to escape. This, if not spotted and remedied, could result in a seized engine. The design defects were progressively eliminated, but AEC’s reputation as an engine builder was not enhanced.

Roger Cox

18/11/14 – 06:24

Ronnie – that’s a proper bus conversion done by Northern, however as they were done in 1967 they would operate for quite a few years to get the money back. We only started conversions in 1971 and as I said, perhaps a bit late in the day – but don’t forget PMT had the largest fleet of Roadliners in the world and anything had to be tried to mitigate the chronic unreliability.

Ian Wild

18/11/14 – 06:25

Chris, for a short period in 1956/7 the AEC Regent V was offered with the option of a Gardner 5LW or 6LW engine. There were only three takers; Glasgow and Dundee Corporations bought examples with vacuum brakes and spring operated preselector gearboxes (model D2RV6G,) and Rochdale Corporation had examples with air brakes and air operated preselector or semi-automatic gearboxes, model D2RA6G. The Rochdale examples were described in my article on this site.

Don McKeown

18/11/14 – 10:19

The prototype Crossley HOE7 engine design came about when the firm’s engine designer, W.C. Worrall was diagnosed with tuberculosis prior to the outbreak of WW2. He was sent to Switzerland to recuperate, and, whilst there, visited the Saurer factory, where he himself had once worked. Saurer gave him permission to use the company’s advanced four valve head and toroidal piston cavity in his new engine design. Shortly after Worral’s return to Britain, war broke out, limiting Crossley’s commercial options, but three prototype engines were constructed with combustion chamber detailed design being made by Leslie Bennett, a mathematician and combustion specialist. Thus Crossley had done all the right things and succeeded in a designing a powerful and reliable unit. Then, as the new SD/DD42 chassis production began to get under way in 1944, Saurer, entirely reasonably, asked for a royalty or licence payment in recognition of the fact that the Swiss company’s patents were employed in the head design. The exact details of the fees involved have since been buried in the passage of time (probably deliberately). The Crossley MD, Arthur Hubble was having none of this, and refused to comply, instead ordering that the cylinder head of the new engine be redesigned completely to avoid any payment to Saurer. The new head had two valves per cylinder instead of four, and the toroidal piston cavity was reshaped with sharp concentric ridges, the (misplaced) theory being that these would improve the swirl effect. The new head was married up with the original block intended for the Saurer type head, and the result was a motor strangulated by hopelessly contorted airflows. In addition, poor coolant circulation led to overheating and high back pressure in the crankcase. This ill advised redesign ended the involvement of Saurer, but left Crossley with a exceptionally poor engine. When AEC took control of Crossley, it lost patience with Gorton’s refusal to attend to the cylinder head deficiencies and undertook remedial design itself. It is an overstatement to suggest that AEC simply solved the problems with the Crossley engine. The downdraught cylinder head was not a cheap conversion, and, although it did improve the airflow characteristics and reliability issues to a very great extent, the HOE7 could never be turned into a truly good motor. What baffles me somewhat is the fact that Dennis used a four valve head and toroidal piston cavity in its O4 and O6 diesels, yet no payment was ever made to Saurer. Presumably the Dennis design differed sufficiently to escape the Saurer patents.

Roger Cox

18/11/14 – 15:50

Aberdeen Corporation did have five Gardner engined AEC Regent V’s with Crossley bodies (205 – 209). In 1959 they purchased five AEC Regent V’s with AEC engines and Alexander bodies (271-275). By 1963, they also had been fitted with Gardner 6LW engines.
I seem to recall that Maidstone and District also converted some coaches in the same manner as that done by Northern General.

Stephen Bloomfield

19/11/14 – 05:57

Stephen, I think the Maidstone vehicles you refer to had Harrington bodies but the end result was quite similar.

Ian Wild

24/11/14 – 17:03

On the subject of seized AEC Reliance engines I Drove for Stanley Gath Coaches of Dewsbury in the late 1970s. Due to a vehicle shortage one weekend a AEC Reliance/Plaxton was hired from Kirby Coach dealers of Sheffield. Returning from Blackpool on the Saturday night the engine seized up on the M62. Rather then owning up to this, a visit was made to a scrappers at Barnsley and a similar engine was obtained and shoe horned in. I dare say no one was ever the wiser.

Philip Carlton

25/11/14 – 06:31

Thx, folks, for the answers to my queries.

Chris Hebbron

London Transport – AEC Reliance – 497 ALH – RW3

497 ALH

London Transport
1960
AEC Reliance 2MU2RA
Willowbrook B42D

497 ALH, AEC Reliance 2MU2RA with Willowbrook B42D body, dates from 1960. She is, of course, better known as seen here in London Transport’s RW3 guise, although she spent some time with other operators – notably Chesterfield with her two sisters. She’s seen at the Alton Rally on 21 July 2013.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

29/03/15 – 17:36

Given the widespread use of this combination within the BET empire, was it just the apparent “not designed in Chiswick” attitude that stopped this type from becoming the successor to the RF in both London Country and Green Line service.

Phil Blinkhorn

29/03/15 – 17:36

This is another example of a manufacturer’s standard type that didn’t last long in London Transport service despite giving good service to many other operators across Britain. Rochdale to name one had some virtually identical vehicles that had full service lives.
Where London Transport’s operating conditions so much different from the rest, particularly in the outposts of the Country area, that they seemed unable to sustain vehicles that ran happily for years with other operators?

Philip Halstead

30/03/15 – 08:04

Phil and Philip,
I suspect you are both right. I’m sure Mr Cox will have something to say on this!!!

Pete Davies

30/03/15 – 08:05

There is already a post of RW1, when in service with Chesterfield Corporation and a very useful post by Roger Cox explaining why it was not popular with London Transport. It’s recorded that the engine/fluid flywheel/gearbox, being mounted in one piece, suffered from overheating problems. Obviously, this was overcome by either LTE or Chesterfield Corp’n, for these vehicles to have had such long subsequent lives. However, removing the unsuitable centre-exit was an expensive option for just three vehicles, hence LTE’s likely disposal, although they could just have been disconnected!
LINK: //www.old-bus-photos.co.uk/?p=584

Chris Hebbron

30/03/15 – 08:06

These buses have been discussed on OBP before – see Chesterfield Corporation “AEC Reliance – 495 ALH – 18”. The three RW buses joined the London Transport (Country Buses & Coaches) department at the same time as I did – in August 1960. They were LT’s first experience of dual doorway buses, and drivers strongly disliked the feature. On rural routes, where stopping points were often just hard standing cut beck into the hedgerow at the stop post, the central door opened to reveal an impenetrable barrier of vegetation. They were tried out all round the Country area to a universally stony reception, not just from the operating staff but from the engineers as well. At this time London Transport ran a fleet of totally standardised, bespoke vehicles tailored to the rigid Chiswick/Aldenham maintenance system. LT bus garages did not have “engineers” in the sense understood by Company and Municipal operators. LT employed “fitters”. If something went wrong with a vehicle at LT, the offending component was removed and sent to Chiswick, and a fully overhauled part fitted in replacement. The RW buses were London Transport’s first experience of the new breed of AEC wet liner engines, and garages just lacked the knowledge and skills required to remedy the faults that arose in daily operation. The traditional ‘send the part to Chiswick’ mentality couldn’t apply. LT simply capitulated to its absurdly inflexible maintenance system and got rid of the three RWs. However, a virtual carbon copy of the whole sorry saga took place again in 1965 with the Reliance RC class of Green Line coaches. Nevertheless, the ponderous maintenance system still persisted, later showing its deficiencies with the DM/DMS Fleetlines, deemed “unreliable” by LT despite being of a type that ran entirely successfully with everyone else in the land. The MB/MBS/MS/SM types suffered similarly. Strangely, the only exception in this sorry tale proved to be the original eight XF Fleetlines operated by the Country area from 1965. These ran until 1981, proving the soundness of the basic design (i.e. free of LT meddling modifications). They outlasted all the other ex LTE types in LCBS service. The scandalous squandering of public money by London Transport was a national disgrace.

Roger Cox

30/03/15 – 08:06

There are some thoughts here: //www.countrybus.org/RW/RW.htm   Overheating is mentioned, together with difficulties with the centre exits in rural locations.

Peter Williamson

30/03/15 – 14:34

I remember these 3 buses coming to Chesterfield for use on one man services however it was common for them to be used as crew buses. I remember this one was no20 I conducted it one day on the Barlow routes.

Ken Wragg

31/03/15 – 06:53

It’s rather surprising they bothered with the centre exit for the country area. Even taking on board all Roger points out, single door vehicles for the country routes, a dual purpose equipped single door version for Green Line and a dual door version for the central area would likely, with any other operator, have been seen as ideal. Instead they spent money and kept the drawing office busy by updating the RFs.

Phil Blinkhorn

31/03/15 – 10:12

Thank you, gents, for your further thoughts on this shambles. As Roger says, it has been discussed at length in the past. It was not just LT who didn’t like the DM/DMS Fleetlines, however. Readers may recall that a fair number came down to Wilts & Dorset and Hampshire Bus. Stagecoach bought Hampshire Bus and decided that the Southampton area was not profitable enough, so they sold it on to Solent Blue Line, along with the allocation of vehicles.
Among that allocation were Fleetlines. The then manager of SBL decided he didn’t want them, and arranged an exchange with the former Ribble “high” Bristol VR fleet at Carlisle. One of my friends was among the SBL drivers on the exchange visit. He told me at the time it was the fastest the Fleetlines had ever moved, so eager were the local drivers to do the exchange.
Following on from that, we had VRs with Cumberland and Ribble fleet names trundling around Southampton for several months, for the legalities to be sorted out. I was told that not a single one of the Fleetlines moved away from Keswick Bus Station until a scrapper removed them, but the appearance of an EFE model in the ‘deregulation’ Hampshire Bus livery but with Carlisle fleet names suggests otherwise.

Pete Davies

31/03/15 – 15:55

10 DMs and 8 RMs went to Cumberland in part exchange for the highbridge VRs in 1987. The DMs retained their Hampshire Bus numbers 1917-1926 and as far as I am aware most if not all received the attractive CMS Cumberland livery of ayers red and oatmeal. They were placed in service in Carlisle and survived until October 1988 when Stagecoach replaced them with new Olympians. There were also 4 ex SYPTE Ailsas involved in the deal which were not popular and only lasted a couple of months or so. I have never seen a picture of one of the Ailsas in service so perhaps these were the buses that languished at Keswick Pete?

Update on those liveries after trawling the web. It seems the DMs entered service in Carlisle in a mix of poppy red(?), Hampshire Bus blue, white and red, and in CMS ayers red. Its a pity EFE didn’t choose the latter! There are also a couple of pics of the Ailsas working so that doesn’t explain the Keswick conundrum either!

Mike Morton

01/04/15 – 06:22

Thank you, Mike. So that’s where the Ailsas went! I did wonder. I have a photo of one of them in HB livery in Southampton. If you’d like one, I’ll send it to Peter and ask him to forward it. It, clearly, isn’t suitable for this site!!!! I see the captcha code is MW49, or is that MW4G – a bit under-powered, perhaps!

Pete Davies

02/04/15 – 06:26

Whatever the merits or otherwise of these Reliances, surely the point is that LT didn’t actually need any more single deck buses at this stage, being full up with RFs. Agreed, the RFs were very heavy and thirsty and perhaps a case could have been made for some replacement by lighter and more fuel efficient buses, but even that seems unlikely.
Was this more a case of a manufacturer trying to interest its customer in something than the customer actually having a need for something new? LT didn’t actually buy any more single deck buses (as opposed to Green Line coaches) until the Merlin/Swift era.

Richard Delahoy

02/04/15 – 06:27

I wonder why LT specified quarter-lights. I see that Chesterfield painted over them.

Geoff Kerr

02/04/15 – 16:51

Peter, would love to see the Ailsa. Much appreciated.

Mike Morton

03/04/15 – 05:36

Chesterfield did not paint over the quarter lights.

Ken Wragg

04/04/15 – 06:36

Must be an optical illusion, Ken. Other photos show them still in use.

Geoff Kerr

10/06/16 – 16:43

In answer to Roger Cox view about the operation of the Reliance class (RW) during their brief but fruitful stay with London Transport over the three years…
It was nothing to do with the servicing of these vehicles at the garages but purely the economics that came out of the research programme.
Many of London Transport country routes in the 1950 and 60s had interworking schedules not like the LT central area where one bus would work a number of different routes during a roster. This provided challenges as some routes such as LTs 383/384 at Hitchin would be in town for a period and then out into to remote countryside.
The routing and operational challenges here were often loadings, terminating agreements, and the remit to go to one person operation where in some instances a conductor was required to facilitate the reversing based on vehicle size.
In addition, LT wanted to increase the capacity of their vehicles and reduce route timings to improve efficiencies (debatable as history shows).
There were initial issues with the running of this type….. Overheating and the reliability of the doors were just two but generally they went well in comparison with the Regal Four (RF) and Regent (RT) double deck types.
LT found quite soon that operation of the slightly wider body in narrow lanes and two the door arrangement proved unpopular with staff and passengers (as Roger highlighted) in country locations when the vehicle was positioned to pick up passengers at the stop…. the centre doors would be out of position for alighting.
Drivers by default would have to double stop to let passengers on and off making the centre doors redundant and increase schedule timings as a result. Councils who had responsibility for the stopping points were not willing to fund widening or a new alighting point without subsidy. LT in the end decided that it would not be feasibly at that time to continue with this arrangement. This is just a potted history of events and there were other political / operational issues besides.
Hope this helps

Colin Rivers (one of the fortunate owners of RW 3)

10/06/16 – 19:35

Some very interesting thoughts there, Colin!

Pete Davies

Maidstone & District – AEC Reliance – 3 YKK – S 3

Maidstone & District - AEC Reliance - 3 YKK - S 3

Maidstone & District Motor Services Ltd
1963
AEC Reliance 2U3RA
Willowbrook B53F

S 3 was among Maidstone & Districts first 36ft long vehicles being an AEC Reliance 2U3RA with a Willowbrook B53F body delivered in September 1963 as part of a batch of four, the body was to the early BET design with a curved rear dome and the four piece flat glass windscreen. The style of which was later fitted with first the curved windscreen and later still the peaked rear dome, overall I did like the BET design. The distinctive Maidstone & District livery always looked good on any type of body, with it’s cream “moustache” below the windscreen and cream bands below and above the side windows, that above the windows having a subtle light green edging which combined with the dark green main colour looked pure class. This was one of very many fine liveries lost to NBC’s corporate dead hand (and head) now only seen at rallies etc. Todays colour schemes, I refuse to call them liveries, nearly all scream TAT, never CLASS, there that is my rant for today!!

Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave

24/08/15 – 06:04

I agree entirely Dave about modern colour schemes. I’ve just been to Blackpool for the first time in many years and the once smart fleets of cream and green buses and trams have been replaced by a mish-mash of black and yellow on the buses and purple and white on the new trams. To compound the felony most of the vehicles in both fleets are festooned in hideous adverts all over the vehicles including the windows. There were two of the Balloon trams running on the day of my visit on Heritage Tours in the original liveries and again compared to the modern stuff they looked sheer class.

Philip Halstead

25/08/15 – 06:19

PMT had two similar batches of buses, ten like this on AEC Reliance chassis, the other ten on early Leyland Leopards. They squeezed in 54 seats (I seem to remember an inward facing single behind the entrance door). Thinking back, they must have been a bit cramped for leg room or maybe people were smaller generally in those days. I agree entirely that the later BET design with curved front and rear windows was a true classic – even this version had a touch of class about it.

Ian Wild

26/08/15 – 05:50

NGT’s Percy Main depot “Tynemouth & District” had two 49 seat D/P versions from 1962, FFT 812/3 – 262/3. They were on a Leyland Leopard PSU3/3R chassis. On Saturdays during the summer months, drivers on 0800 spare would often find themselves doubled up with a Northern driver doing a Dup to Blackpool. The bodies were stylish and well built, and the Leyland wasn’t a bad vehicle, however, I always found them to be a bit on the clumsy side, perhaps it was the low sitting position, or the lack of power steering.

Ronnie Hoye

26/08/15 – 05:50

One of these days someone with clout within the hierarchy of a significant operator, is going to (1) tell the PR/Marketing gurus to go and play with an alligator, (2) bring back a modest dignified livery, not invented by “Toys R We”, and (3) restore windows (and former window apertures), to the purpose for which they were invented – looking through! He (or she) might even throw out stupid punning route descriptions, and substitute a series of proper route numbers that starts at 1 and carries on until all the routes have been covered – usually without getting anywhere near the 3-digit variety, let alone the 500, 600, 700 etc. series.

Stephen Ford

26/08/15 – 17:24

And so say all of us, Stephen.

David Wragg

26/08/15 – 17:24

Absolutely spot on, Stephen, and magnificently put.

Steve Crompton

27/08/15 – 06:36

I fully understand what Stephen F means. But let’s not forget that traditional London Transport used route numbers up to the 700s well before this site’s 1970 date. It seems that 1-199 were red bus routes, 200-299 were single-deck routes, 300-499 were green bus routes, 500-699 were trolleybus routes, and 700-799 were Green Line routes. At the trolleybus conversions, though, some were renumbered into the 200 series. Southdown also had an “area scheme” for their route numberings, such as the 40’s in the Portsmouth area, and the 50’s in Chichester and Bognor. If these overran, the equivalent 100 series were used. But there were no 200’s until after NBC took a hand, and 700’s were used for Limited Stop services. I remember BMMO and Crosville had letter prefixes to some services for local areas. So although there may be a case for using low numbers for bus routes, not all traditional bus companies followed that philosophy forty or fifty years ago!

Michael Hampton

27/08/15 – 10:45

Portsmouth Corporation befuddled many a holidayer by giving some routes a different route number for each direction – 18 one way and 19 on the return, for example. But, later, it stopped doing this, leaving two systems in place. As for route suffixes, it used them for the same route, but shortened sections. The highest I recall was the 143 which went up to 143F! Stagecoach West, my local operator, however, uses them for deviations on a basic route.

Chris Hebbron

27/08/15 – 17:06

Quite right Michael and Chris. Obviously big operators will in any case need to go into the hundreds. Midland Red was an obvious example (Lichfield-Stafford route 825 etc), and so were Western/Southern National. In my own local area the much-lamented Midland General used a letter followed by single digit number, which would in theory have given them up to 234 two-digit route descriptions – though, in fact, they never got beyond letter G! It seems strange that in the deregulated/privatised bus scene route numbers can be dictated by the dead hand of local government, because the public are not credited with enough intelligence to distinguish between a red number 25 and a blue number 25. Of course, it would help if all the buses operated by a particular operator were painted blue, or red, or whatever instead of random daubings of ginger-pink with yellow stripes (which is where I came in!…)

Stephen Ford

27/08/15 – 17:07

With the creation of T&W PTE, control of all services wholly, or where the majority of the route was within the boundaries of Tyne and Wear passed to the PTE. These services were operated by the former Corporation fleets of Newcastle, South Shields and Sunderland, as well as NGT group companies and United, and several independents who ran unnumbered routes. Having gained control, the PTE in their wisdom or otherwise decided that no two routes within their area would have the same number, and regardless of company, all vehicles on those routes would share a common livery. Former Newcastle routes remained more or less unaltered, numbers where then anything from 100 to 800 groupings, depending on the area. I suppose it made sense to someone, but the public didn’t like it at all, especially in areas which had previously been served by several different companies, all of whom had a different livery.

Ronnie Hoye

27/08/15 – 17:08

Just a small point. The route pairings on Portsmouth Corporation were different. 18/19 was not a route pair although 17/18 and 19/20 were. (Personally I always found this system more convenient than the the usual bi-directional system.)
Incidentally, route numbers such as 143 covered journeys outside the city boundary and were from the Southdown series. Thankfully, there are now many books available covering the Portsmouth Corporation system for those looking for further information.

Andy Hemming

28/08/15 – 06:52

I should have known better than to mix up two trolleybus routes on which travelled frequently, Andy. Thanks for correcting me.
I should also have mentioned, originally, that the corporation’s ‘local’ bus routes were lettered, too. The 1xx series, logically, covered areas some miles outside Portsmouth (Leigh Park, for example) and into Southdown territory, to which their buses could go, as they were building developments created especially for ex-Portsmouth residents displaced by wartime bombing.

Chris Hebbron

28/08/15 – 06:54

Philip, I have just been to Blackpool and I noticed some slightly smarter newer buses which are Grey with Lemon though of course their dark tinted windows tend to look blackish, much nicer than the Black and Yellow, but horror of horrors they have some of the heritage trams in that Purple, I hadn’t noticed them on previous visits. Bolton 66 was out and running on the limited stop heritage rides today.

John Lomas

28/08/15 – 06:54

The difference between a red 25 and a blue 25? Well, In the 1950’s/60’s, Southdown managed to run two routes designated 38! Fortunately they were about 50 miles apart, as one was in Brighton, the other in Portsmouth, so never the twain met. I haven’t checked this, but I think the Brighton one was eventually run by BH&D after the BATS scheme came into operation. Did any other of the larger companies have a pair of routes within their territory with the same number, but separated by a fair distance?

Michael Hampton

29/08/15 – 06:51

Manchester, up until the end of the trams, had trams, trolleybuses and buses, all with the same route number running through the city centre, all serving different destinations.

Phil Blinkhorn

01/09/15 – 07:37

You also had the phenomenon of a joint service on which each operator used a different number, e.g. Huddersfield – Bradford, where for a number of years Hebble used 12, Huddersfield JOC 38 and Bradford 64, or Gloucester – Hereford, where Bristol used 55 and Red & White 38.

Geoff Kerr

29/09/18 – 06:57

Southdown also had two routes numbered 15 when it became involved in Brighton area Transport services. It took over the Brighton service 15 from Brighton Hove and District when it was co-ordinated with the 13 route (which was already worked by Southdown). The other Southdown service 15 was Eastbourne – Hastings via Polegate, worked jointly with Maidstone & District Motor Services.

Andrew Newland

David MacBrayne – AEC Reliance – LUS 524E – 150

David MacBrayne - AEC Reliance - LUS 524E - 150

David MacBrayne Ltd.
1967
AEC Reliance 2U3RA
Willowbrook DP49F

LUS 524E is a 1967 AEC Reliance 590 2U3RA with Willowbrook DP49F body. It was new to the legendary Scottish operator, David MacBrayne, fleet number 150. When MacBraynes ceased operation of bus services, it passed to Highland Omnibuses, being painted in that operator’s superb blue and red livery. Although the body is to the standard BET group design, it is unusual in having a one piece inward opening door, as was normal on contemporary coaches. This vehicle is preserved and is seen here at Brough, taking part in the 2016 Kirkby Stephen Running Day.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Don McKeown

24/10/17 – 06:44

This vehicle appeared briefly in Northern Ireland as a “swap” for former Scottish Omnibuses SWS 671 which returned to Scotland. LUS resided with a church group around Gilnahirk in Belfast before returning to the mainland for preservation.

Bill Headley

Safeguard – AEC Reliance – 5389 PL

5389 PL

Safeguard Coaches (Guildford)
1962
AEC Reliance 2MU3RV
Willowbrook B45F

In October 1962, AEC Reliance 200 APB (Safeguard – AEC Reliance – 200 APB) was despatched to Safeway of South Pertherton, Somerset, and replaced by Willowbrook B45F bodied Reliance 5389 PL. The firm still runs a bidirectional circular service in Guildford which is a development of the Westborough service on which 5389 PL is seen operating in 1967.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

31/10/22 – 07:32

200 APB returned to Safeguard and has become their signature preserved bus which they roll out for service on significant occasions.

John Lomas

East Yorkshire – AEC Regent V – VKH 43 – 643

East Yorkshire - AEC Regent V - VKH 43 - 643

East Yorkshire Motor Services
1956
AEC Regent V
Willowbrook HBB56R

Notice the roof this shape was unique to East Yorkshire for one reason the Beverly North Bar. This is the sole survivor of the gateways into the town of Beverly the shape of the arch comes to a point requiring the roof of the bus to do the same even so it was still a tight fit.

A full list of Regent V codes can be seen here.

A piece of boring personal reminiscence! (But it shows, perhaps, how times have changed). Because, I think, that sitting for a long period by the window on the upper deck of a ‘Beverly Bar’ double decker could become uncomfortable, East Yorkshire permitted smoking on the lower deck. I’m unaware of any other operator who allowed it.

Roy Burke

It’s strange that the majority of EYMS ‘deckers had the Beverley Bar roof profile, as only a few routes actually passed beneath the bar. I believe that 229, an ex Binnington’s TD2, was the oldest vehicle to have the roof profile, when it was rebodied in 1936. The lowbridge buses were used in the Hornsea area, I think.

Keith Easton

11/03/11 – 16:23

Were these Regents known as ‘Blue bottles’?

Roger Broughton

13/03/11 – 08:09

If memory serves correctly Roger, East Yorkshire’s Leyland Titan PD2/Roe fully-fronted double-decker coaches became known as ‘Bluebottles’ after demotion to bus duties in later life. Originally painted in East Yorkshire’s attractive coach livery of primrose and blue, they were apparently known as ‘Yellow Perils’ when new. On becoming buses they received East Yorkshire’s glorious indigo and primrose livery with white roof – thus becoming ‘Bluebottles’. Whether the entire batch was downgraded, and whether the buses retained their coach seating I do not know, but they certainly looked comfortable and distinctive vehicles in either livery.

Brendan Smith

13/03/11 – 10:31

Brendan, I believe that the PD2 coaches did retain the luxury seating even when demoted, but I can’t honestly remember whether or not the large lower saloon luggage racks were retained – this would mean the seating capacity still being only 50. Certainly some of the batch escaped the indignity of being demoted, although I suppose if they had to be demoted at least it was to an honourable alternative with East Yorkshire, as one was preserved and appeared at rallies in primrose and light blue.
Roy, I’m sure you’re right about “smoking anywhere in the bus” as I have never encountered it elsewhere either. When I had relations in Bridlington I was a frequent traveller from Leeds, and I have to confess to contributing plenty of nicotine to the lower saloons in my misguided days – how I wish for many reasons that I’d never touched a cigarette but that’s another story.

Chris Youhill

14/03/11 – 07:57

Barton Transport certainly allowed smoking on both decks in the early 1970’s but I’m not sure if it was allowed until the end of their operation of double deckers.

Chris Barker

14/03/11 – 19:44

Brendan, I would agree with you on the naming of the PD2/12’s, and only the final eight (576 to 583) MKH 85 – 92. were downgraded to bus work. The seating was altered to FH28/26RD, thus seating 54 passengers, but I am unaware as to whether the coach seats were retained or replaced by bus seats.

Keith Easton

05/07/11 – 05:44

Having been absent from the EY Pages for awhile there’s a whole mass of really good info for me to read -3 pages back Chris mentions Whitby Oliver Furniture and a J5G conversion to Van, Bob Mack I think took a photo of AEC CVY 129 a converted bus. Back in 1911 and again in 1912 Olivers converted two ex London area buses. Maudslay ex Union Jack (London Road Car Co)LC4149 bonnet code R4, Platform Flat carrying a lift off rail container 1911. The second was it is thought an ex GELMO Straker made into Rully demountable top.
re-regd York so orig owner not confirmed. In the early 1920 they ran five Charas convertible to Vans, 1 Maudslay, 2 Guys 2 Karriers. One of their slogans was ‘Are your chairs Uneasy let us repair them’- try that with Bus seats, By the way EYMS operated an Air Service for a short time within the British Isles during the 1930s It departed Hedon Aerodrome.

Ian Gibbs

05/07/11 – 09:12

Ian, your last sentence brings back very happy memories for me (no, I’m not QUITE as old as Amy Johnson but not far off) of Hedon Aerodrome. When I was in the RAF at Patrington in 1955/6 we naturally frequently used the EYMS Hull – Withernsea service and even then the intermediate destination blinds read :-
AERODROME
   HEDON
PATRINGTON
There was a filling station, still in business at that time, called “Aerodrome Garage.” For a little more local flavour, how about the Hull folk’s pronunciation of the seaside resort as “Wither(UN)sea.

Chris Youhill

06/07/11 – 07:28

I think one of the Bluebottles was used by Halifax Corporation as a Driver Trainer. Also 647(VKH 47) was loaned to Yorkshire Woollen and then Hebble Motor Services in 1960 for fuel consumption tests.

Philip Carlton

06/07/11 – 09:20

The bus used by Halifax as a trainer was coach seated MKH 81 which carried the Halifax number 403 There is a photo of the bus in Halifax service on www.sct61.org.uk

Chris Hough

07/07/11 – 06:41

Slightly off topic here, but what’s wrong with us ‘Ull folk saying “Wither’n’sea”? What about Whitefriargate then? For the non Hull folk it’s pronounced whit’fra’gate!! Back on topic, was the Aerodrome the one at Hedon where EYMS operated the Bus-Air service in the 30’s and KHCT ran services to the Hull Speedaway in the post-war years?

Keith Easton

07/07/11 – 12:15

Being brought up proper and speaking proper to boot, I’m, nonetheless, a big believer in preserving local dialect – or Sheffieldish as she is spoke in the old homeland. In Sheffield, there is a select corner of the republic called Beauchief but pronounced by the locals as “Beechiff”. We also share, with Doncaster, a suburb called “Inteck” – but you have to look on the buses for Intake.

David Oldfield

07/07/11 – 12:17

Well since you mention Hull Keith, I have to say I’m not a Hullovarian but I absolutely love the place! The first time I ever visited, I went on the ferry from New Holland and took the bus into town from Corporation Pier. I did go over the bridge soon after it opened but then many years passed before I visited again in 2009. I used to love the old bus station because it was full of atmosphere and character and the delights of the parking ground to the rear but I suppose you have to admit that the new interchange and St. Stephens has enhanced Hull considerably. I would like to ask you this; what was in the massive 5 or 6 story block between the bus station and Ferensway, was it offices? there was a street to the right of it which would have seemed a natural exit for buses but why did they go some distance further along before exiting on to Ferensway, was it by Lombard Street? I wish I’d taken more notice at the time but you never value things till they’ve gone!

Chris Barker

08/07/11 – 06:19

Oh ‘eck Keith, I hope I haven’t caused any offence – such was certainly not the intention – just the opposite in fact. I’ve always been a lover of local dialects and accents, and East Yorkshire and Hull in particular – I was just highlighting the delight of the extra syllable that you good ‘Ull/Spurn folk insert between the “R” and the “N” By way of apology, a pint of Moores and Robsons or Hull Brewery ale is yours when we meet !!

Chris Youhill

09/07/11 – 07:28

Chris Y and EY Aero buffs here is a reminder of ‘old planes’


I was given this picture to copy by an old chap I interviewed years ago with no copyright on the rear. He told me that the Air Ferry was set up to provide businessmen with a quick trip across the Humber I believe it was a charter job for each trip. The date was c1933s tickets were in triplicate coloured copies apparently being Blue Yellow White The Taxi was possibly ex-Richard Sherwoods fleet (only a theory on my part). My informant named the ‘Taxi’ as 6-cylinder Chevrolet Vehicle. So as Sherwood had 8 Chevs, one an LQ type (WF 2441) acquired by EYMS 1933 it is possibly from EYMS ownership. Anyhow EYMS provided the vehicle as transport to the Aerodrome, this photo illustrated the arrival of flight number One I was informed. I think the Aircraft may have been a Percival product.The aircraft code letters are not visible (rather like those annoying bus photos with staff in front of the Plate) so it cannot be precisely identified -or maybe from Aerodrome log books?
Briefly on the subject of R H Sherwood he owned a 1907 ‘National’ Car formerley owned by John J Ferens!

Ian Gibbs

10/07/11 – 07:34

Hi Chris (B), between the bus station and Ferensway, was the ABC Cinema (on the corner) with a branch of Norman Duggleby’s toy shop at the bus station corner – sheer heaven for a youngster in the ‘fifties and ‘sixties! Next to the cinema was the Electricity showrooms, next to which was a car park, but was obviously a bombed site I’m not sure what was originally there. I too spent many happy hours in the Coach Station (that sounds a bit suspect in the 21st Century, but the ‘fifties to ‘seventies were much more innocent days); indeed upon acquiring a copy of Alan Witton’s fleetbook 2 and standing in the Coach Station and Victoria square, I found that I could see 80% of the KHCT bus fleet- happy days. Ironically, being born and bred in ‘Ull, I never did get to go on the New Holland Ferry, indeed you never appreciate what you have until it has gone. As to Lombard street, the KHCT offices and central garage were on the western side of Lombard street, and several bus stand were situated adjacent to the garage/offices. I only remember the rebuilt premises as the garage took a direct hit during the horrific air raid of May, 1941.
Chris (Y) no offence taken, but if you can find a pint of Hull Brewery, then your’e on! On the topic of Hullisms, have you ever heard of Bridleberg, Withernberg and Hornberg at all? This is what we called them when young.
Peter, please accept my apologies as this is totally off topic, just the ramblings of an aging Hullensian bus enthusiast!

Keith Easton

11/07/11 – 07:19

Very happy indeed Keith that no offence was taken – as I explained of course only the opposite was intended. No, I’ve never encountered the “bergs” before but I did often hear (and still do from an ex Hull/LCT chap in Leeds) Patrington pronounces as “Patringumm.” In the aerodrome region I have very fond memories of the prefabs on Hedon Road with enormous numbers reaching 12** etc, The Gaol (from outside I stress) Imperial Typewriters , Humbrol paints. The EYMS Withernsea service, before joining Hedon Road and passing the Aerodrome, was via Holderness Road and Southcoates Lane – I believe this still applies.

Chris Youhill

18/07/11 – 07:28

I chanced upon this forum while looking for pictures of Hedon aerodrome. Mr Easton’s comments on Hull Bus Station reminded me that I too spent a lot of time there in the ’50s and ’60s waiting for buses to Cottingham Road. The stop was opposite Duggleby’s; how many times must I have gazed longingly in their windows! I remember the long rows of bus stands, and used to imagine that buses from the ones at the back went to strange and forbidding places.

Stephen W.

22/08/11 – 11:32

The building in Ferensway contained the Regal cinema and the former Hull Electricity Department offices, later the Yorkshire Electricty Board. The car park and small road (shaped like a D on its side) was not a bomb damaged site – the former buildings were demolished when Frenesway was built in the early thirties.
For a time the “roadway” was used as a KHCT bus terminus – there’s a photo in the Hull Daily Mail of 17 March 2001 showing a bus in the site and another leaving it and turning right into Ferensway.

Malcolm Wells

23/08/11 – 09:51

Hi Malcolm, this comment of yours now clarifies and confirms the location of the terminal points of many Hull Corporation bus services in the early ‘thirties, which I have only come across as “bus stands situated in Ferensway, north of the electricity showrooms”. Sadly I didn’t see the photo in the HDM to which you referred.

Keith Easton

23/08/11 – 14:20

The aeroplane used for the Brough – Waltham (i.e. Grimsby) air ferry was G-ABFR, an example of the very rare Blackburn Segrave twin engined monoplane powered by two 120 h.p. de Havilland Gipsy III engines. It went on to Redhill Flying Club in May 1936. These details come from “British Civil Aircraft since 1919” by A.J. Jackson.

Roger Cox

Roger Cox re East Yorks Air Ferry thank you for taking the time to post the Aircraft info-I have not looked at the Bus Photos site for some weeks so did not find your posting it is appreciated and I have added the note to the print I have it’s marvellous how these sites makes info sharing so helpful.
Whilst on East Yorkshire Fred Sharpe of Hedon had two Albions one rather old chain drive chara that came second hand from a Harrogate Hotel it had been a ferry for hotel Golfers then to Sharpes green colour source Ernie Sharp. The other a half cab Albion came from Bullocks Pontefract (Taylor Body I believe-unconfirmed.) Fred Sharpe and Ernest? Bullock were planning a through service to the East Coast exchanging passengers along the way but it never came to fruition.

East Yorkshire – AEC Regent V – VKH 34 – 634


Photo by “unknown” – if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

East Yorkshire Motor Services
1956
AEC Regent V
Willowbrook HBB56R

This is another highbridge Beverly Bar Regent V of East Yorkshire Motor Services this time a view of the near side, but what is very interesting is the single decker behind. You did not see many rear entrance full fronted bus or coaches, it is actually a 1954 Leyland Tiger Cub PSUC1/1 with a 5.76 litre engine and a Willowbrook C39R body. According to my British Bus Fleets book dated 1962 this batch of 14 had a centre entrance, were they converted sometime between 1954 and 1962. If you know, let me know, please leave a comment.
There is a much better photo of one of these single deckers here.

A full list of Regent V codes can be seen here.

Concerning the Tiger Cub mentioned there is no evidence for these ever having centre entrance/exits, but they were re-seated during 1955 as dual purpose, but still retaining the rear entrances/exits.

Keith Easton

East Yorkshire – AEC Regent V – VKH 47 – 649


Photographer unknown – if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

East Yorkshire Motor Services
1957
AEC Regent V
Willowbrook L31/28RD

Now we have two Regent Vs from a batch of 19 delivered to East Yorkshire in 1956/7 they were fleet numbered 634 – 652.
634 to 648 were 27ft in length had AEC 7.68 litre six cylinder engines a four speed synchromesh gearbox and a Willowbrook highbridge “Beverly Bar” style roof bodies seating 56 as per the bus on the right above. 
649 and 650 had the same engine and gearbox but had Willowbrook lowbridge bodies seating 59 as per the bus on the left above.
651 and 652 were 30ft in length with AEC 9.6 litre six cylinder engines a four speed synchromesh gearbox but with Roe highbridge Beverly Bar style roof bodies seating 66. Another difference that 651 and 652 had was that they both had the more well known concealed radiator associated with the Regent V to see a shot of one of them click here.
With regards the above shot the bus on the right must have a cold running engine, that is a rather large radiator blanking panel. Getting a photo that shows the shape of the “Beverly Bar” style roof is not easy as it was painted white and when shot in black and white the roof merged into the sky.
I wonder why East Yorkshire ordered nineteen of these Regent Vs and not twenty seems a strange number to order to me

A full list of Regent V codes can be seen here.

With regard to EYMS Regent V’s, there were two (or three) separate batches involved in the 19 vehicles referred to. The first batch was for 15 MD3RV;s 634 to 648, the highbridge ones, plus two lowbridge ones 649 and 650 (all were registered VKH 634-650) delivered November, 1956; plus two LD3RA’s 651 and 652 (registered WAT 651/2) delivered April, 1957. The numbering of these last two completed the gap between the first batch(es) and the first ex Everingham vehicle, which carried fleet number 653 (the whole series for Everingham vehicles was 653 to 664 plus 46!) These were acquired, of course, in November 1953.

Keith Easton

For many years the “Beverley Bar” VKHs were to be seen on the Leeds – Bridlington service (joint with WYRCC). I was a frequent traveller on them, having relatives then in Bridlington, and often went all the way smoking merrily with others in the lower saloon. EYMS were possibly the last operator in the Country to allow smoking anywhere in the vehicle ?? The Willowbrooks, fine in most ways, did though have possibly the worst sliding windows for incessant rattling. I wish we could still ride on them today when I travel in the present rattling thudding horrors that manufacturers are so proud of !!

Chris Youhill

Looks like the coach drop off point Bridlington coach station around the mid 60s

Mickey Summers

Sorry, Mickey – I think this is the main Hull bus park outside the railway station (in the background). This was the location where countless EYMS and KHCT buses would park off-peak, and was always a good place to take photos.

Paul Haywood

Yes, It is definitely the bus park now gone under ST Stephens shopping centre and Interchange. What a crime!

Keith Easton

I remember taking dozens of box camera shots on this site at Hull in the very early 1950s. There were rebodied Guys, TD4 and TD5s, some ECW rebodied, and some lowbridge all Leyland PD2s, as well as the usual BB Roe PD1s and PD2s, plus several single deck types inc the ECW PS1s, Burlingham coaches, and the usual “Federation” types. Fascinating fleet it was too. I particularly remember the oval rear windows of the pre war single deck stock (a bit of an out-dated feature) and the original 3 window upper fronts of the pre war Titans.
We used the Bridlington to Hull service many times, via Barmston, Beeford, Ulrome and Skipsea, and it always seemed to be on a Roe PD1, which I remember as quite lively.
An interesting fleet….perhaps it was the livery which held it apart from other BET fleets.
Does anyone remember the slogan on the sides of several Brush PS1s…. “This is not a nationalised bus” ?

John Whitaker

09/08/13 – 07:54

My great grandfather designed and built the first Beverley Bar bus, his name was William Bundy. He lived in Sproatley till his death at 99 in a house he built himself.

Bernice Brumby

09/08/13 – 09:30

Yes John, I do remember the slogan and there was another version on the cove panels of single deckers – it boldly and unashamedly proclaimed
“UN-NATIONALISED, UNIMPAIRED.”

Chris Youhill

10/08/13 – 05:52

Wasn’t that the point of the white band around the roof? . . . to make the roof blend into the sky and look like a normal low-bridge roof? (In which case why not paint the whole lot white, rather than just a band around the roof . . . suggestions on a post-card).

Philip Rushworth

11/08/13 – 06:50

I’m surprised that no-one else has picked up on this. The title to this page gives the registration of EYMS 649 as VKH 47, Keith Easton gives it as VKH 649, while the photo clearly shows it as VKH 49. In fact, all of 634-50 were VKH 34, etc. While I’m on this subject of EYMS Regent Vs, could anyone tell me why EYMS suddenly bought two lowbridge double-deckers? Did they have a true lowbridge route, or were the two Regent Vs someone else’s cancelled order?
Also, how did Willowbrook come to build double-deckers to the ‘Beverley Bar’ outline? I thought the idea had emanated from a collaboration between EYMS and Roe, and had assumed that Roe had gone on to construct all the examples. (I don’t regard the Bridgemasters and Renowns as true ‘Beverley Bar’, they’re more like ‘pretend’).

David Call

11/08/13 – 09:29

Before the Second World War Brush built twenty-six Beverley Bar bodies and ECW twenty-one. Brush built more during the war (the PSV history and some published sources disagree as to whether all Brush bodies on the first Arabs were Bar buses) and ECW rebodied some Titans after the war whilst Roe rebodied the Arabs.
The Willowbrook bodies were a shock and are not regarded by many as handsome a design as the Roe bodies on various Titans (the full fronted ones excepted)
The bus park was useful to photographers, including myself, but for anyone wanting decent photos showing EYMS (or KHCT) at work in Hull it was a menace since many visitors rarely ventured outside this and the coach station.
The best “Bar” bus portraits ( they’re too good to be called photographs) were taken by G F H Atkins in Scarborough on his holidays, mostly at Northway.

Malcolm J Wells

11/08/13 – 09:29

David, I’m pretty sure but without looking deeply that East Yorkshire did need lowbridge buses somewhere in the outer west of Hull – possibly Elloughton ??

Chris Youhill

15/08/13 – 07:03

It would seem that East Yorkshire’s Elloughton garage was the main home of the company’s lowbridge buses.
The March 1962 and June 1965 editions of the Ian Allan “British Bus Fleets – Yorkshire Company Operators” both show East Yorkshire as operating the following lowbridge double deckers:
584-589 (MKH 402-407) Leyland PD2/12/Leyland L53R 632-633 (SRH 632-633) Leyland PD2/12/Roe L56R 649-650 (VKH 49-50) AEC Regent V/Willowbrook L59R
(The 1965 edition shows the split of upper deck and lower deck seating capacities with 632-633 being L28/28R and 649-650 being L31/28RD. I had never personally noticed any lowbridge deckers with a capacity of more than 53 before).
I am not sure though that the 1962 book is totally correct as in some R H G Simpson photographs I have there were also (at least) 505/506 (JRH 978/979) which look like Leyland lowbridge bodies but the book lists these two as Roe HBB54R (the ‘HBB code used to identify Beverley Bar buses with highbridge layout seating).
In an EYMS allocation list dated 1 March 1962 584/585/586/588/633/649/650 were allocated to Elloughton and 587/589/632 were allocated to Hornsea.
The allocation list dated 1 October 1962 shows 584/585/586/588/589/649/650 allocated to Elloughton, 632/633 allocated to Hornsea and 587 allocated to Withersea.
The list dated 1 November 1963 shows 584/585/586/587/589/649/650 allocated to Elloughton and 588/632/633 to Hull (Anlaby Road).
The list dated 1 January 1964 shows 584/585/586/589/649/650 allocated to Elloughton and 587/588/632/633 to Hull (Anlaby Road).
Lists dated 1 April and 1 May 19 both show 585/586/589/649/650 allocated to Elloughton and 584/587/588/632/633 to Hull (Anlaby Road).
In the same allocation lists the Willowbrook Beverley Bar bodied AEC Regent V buses 634-648 (VKH 34-48), which I always really liked and frequently saw in Scarborough. These were mainly allocated to Driffield Garage – I suspect for service 12 between Hull and Scarborough. The exceptions being in March 1962 635/636/644 were allocated to Bridlington; in October 1962 635/636 were allocated to Bridlington; in November 1963 and January 1964 were 634/635/636 allocated to Hull (Anlaby Road); in April and May 1965 634/635/636/637/638 were allocated to Hull (Anlaby Road) and 648 allocated to Bridlington.

David Slater

15/08/13 – 11:58

Interesting information David. Given that the nearest railway line and station to Elloughton today is Brough, a line which doesn’t have any low bridges, I wonder if the offending structures were on the old Hull and Barnsley line around the North Cave/South Cave area?

Chris Barker

17/08/13 – 11:54

I knew I had seen something in print somewhere about where the low bridges were on the EYMS routes and I can quote the following from page 6 of the Venture Publications Prestige Series book on EYMS which reads: “The standard lowbridge types were in the fleet because of only two low bridges, one at Hornsea Mere station and the other near Selby”.
As an aside, the Prestige book also helped towards clarifying the point of the correctness of the 1962 Ian Allan British Bus Fleets book. The BBF book has grouped together in one block 50 Roe bodied Leyland Titan PD1A buses built between 1947-1950 and shows them all as “HBB54R” – the code used to indicate a highbridge bus with Beverley Bar roof profile. These 50 buses are listed as: 447-453 (JAT 415-421); 471-498 (JAT439-466) and 505-519 (JRH 978-992).
However, as I mentioned before, I had photographs of 505 (JRH 978) and 506 (JRH 979) which I could clearly see were both lowbridge buses. The Prestige book shows a picture of 505 and confirms it was Roe bodied and not, as I had assumed, Leyland bodied – although the styling was very similar. So maybe these, the first two of the JRH batch were the only lowbridge bodies on that order and the list overlooked that fact. There is also a picture of 509 (JRH 982) which is a highbridge model.

David Slater

17/08/13 – 16:29

One has to be careful about sources
The OS/PSV history of 1980 shows the following
420-425 PD1 with Roe H52R bodies (later H56R)
426-427 PDI with Roe L51R bodies
433-453 PD1 with Roe H52R bodies (later H56R)
471-498 PD1A with Roe H54R bodies
505-507 PD1A with Roe L51R bodies
508-519 PD1A with Roe H54R bodies
The EYMS enthusiasts page says PD1, not PD1A
Which version is correct? I have no idea. The early Ian Allan books could be very inaccurate as shown in the first Yorkshire Municipal book’s entries for Hull’s 190-9/204-39 which contained no references to those rebodied with pre-war Massey and Weymann bodies from Regents and Daimlers, despite the fact that these had taken place 7-9 years previously.
The low bridge “near Selby” was, I think, at North Cave with the ex-Hull and Barnsley Railway Bridge although there may have been a problem at Willerby.

Malcolm J Wells

18/08/13 – 06:29

Malcolm, I had no idea that so many of the magnificent PD1s had been upseated from 52 to 56. Presumably a double seat was inserted each side in the upper saloons ??

Chris Youhill

18/08/13 – 12:00

As far as I am aware – yes. H30/26R instead of H26/26R, but I was a lad at the time and more interested in trolleybuses in Hull.

Malcolm J Wells

04/11/13 – 07:12

As a youngster I often travelled from Anlaby Common to Hessle to visit my Nana. The buses were always on service 3 Goole or service 4 Selby and if they were double-deckers they would be what we called “flat tops”- ie lowbridge. If for a change we walked through to Boothferry road to get a service 5 going to South Cave it was usually a “flat topper” too. For many years (1962 to 1969) I travelled to Beverley Grammar School from the Red Lion at Anlaby. For most of the time this was on the PD1A “JATs” and they went through Willerby without a problem so that bridge just short of Willerby Square mustn’t have been too low. Later we had the MKH full fronted PDs and latterly we had Bridgemasters or Renowns.
It is always good to see photographs of “the muck” behind Ferensway Coach Station – where I spent many happy hours noting numbers, collecting tickets and when the crew allowed setting the blinds for the next duty.

David Cornwall

04/11/13 – 16:50

Whilst the bus park alongside the coach station was very good for seeing lots of EYMS and KHCT buses many enthusiasts went no further so that photos of buses at work are in short supply. Photographs of EYMS elsewhere in the city in the 1950s and 1960s are rare – most pics show Scarborough, Bridlington and Beverley with hardly any in the suburbs for EYMS and very few KHCT ones outside the city centre.
Trolleybus enthusiasts tended to ride to and take pics at the outer termini as well as the city centre.
Until the KHCT head office was built in 1962/3 KHCT buses could also be found on what was bombed damaged land alongside the front of the garage in Lombard Street.

Malcolm Wells

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

06/12/13 – 17:51

In common with several others who have posted EYMS comments, I too was – quote, unquote, a Grammar School git, who commuted between Willerby and Bev between 1963 and 1969. I must express particular gratitude to David Cornwall above, as he once lent me his 1964 copies of “Buses Illustrated” – I had only started buying it in 1965. I am delighted to see David remains interested in buses: my own enjoyment has never waned. Not being any good at maths, physics, Latin, games, woodwork – in fact not being very good at almost anything they tried to teach us at school – my nostalgia for those days is limited, but I would love to stop the clock and travel once again on the EYMS fleet of the mid-1960s. Our school run required about six buses each day, and almost anything from the fleet might turn up, even coaches on occasion. I was able to underline just about everything in the East Yorkshire section of my Ian Allen British Bus Fleets: Yorkshire Company Operators. My least favourite at the time were the JAT PD1s – Skidby Hill was always a challenge for them, but the AEC AV590-engined Bridgemasters and Renowns took it by storm, the Renowns being memorably melodious. I had a particular affection for the VKH Regents: ugly as sin, but what sounds they emitted, sweet AV470 melodies from the front, but a very rude raspberry of an exhaust.

Mark Evans

Devon General – AEC Regent V – 506 RUO – 506


Photographer unknown – if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Devon General Omnibus & Touring Co Ltd 
1964
AEC Regent V 2D3RA
Willowbrook H39/30F

This very good looking Willowbrook bodied AEC Regent V of Devon General is I think about to start on its long distance run to Plymouth. It had not been in service very long when this shot was taken in the summer of 1964. It is on route 128 which was Torquay to Plymouth, the via blind reads Ivybridge and Totnes but on looking at a map it should be via Totnes and Ivybridge, still it will be right for the return trip. This route was one of the joint service long distance routes operated with Southern & Western National. Devon General also had an agreement with the largest city in their area Exeter, so Devon General buses did quite a few inner city routes and City of Exeter buses would be seen on some of the out of city routes.

Bus tickets issued by this operator can be viewed here.

A full list of Regent V codes can be seen here.

It is possible that the intermediate display is printed so as to show the places only once, thereby being “wrong way round” on every other journey.  This was a fairly common practice where operators quite reasonably sought to avoid wastage of the expensive material.

Chris Youhill

It is a very smart body, perhaps slightly marred by the heavy look of the sliding windows.
Amazing how rear wheel ‘spats’ always improve the look of buses. Was this a common feature of Devon General?

Chris Hebbron

24/03/11 – 17:25

Most Devon General AECs had rear wheel trims (dustbins) fitted which improved appearance and made it much easier to keep the wheels clean.

Royston Morgan

15/05/13 – 15:29

Does anyone have any information on a very old green bus (could date from as early as the 1920s) which was sited in Wakeham’s Field in Shaldon, Devon in 1951. I came with my parents and sisters to Devon that year and we lived for nine weeks on the camp site whilst waiting for a house. We lived in an old bus for the final few weeks. It had been partly adapted as living accommodation. It had a former Admiral’s (or Captain’s) bathroom area installed – a quite grand mahogany wash basin which lowered down. I have recently seen one of these contraptions on the Antiques Roadshow. I think we still had to pour water from a container into the basin but it drained away after use into the area which would once have been the driver’s place. The bus itself had long seats on the right side as you went in – rows of them I mean, rather than the normal two x 2 each side. Each seat would have taken 4- 5 people. I think some of the windows may have been painted over – probably because there was no way of having curtains. I have never seen a bus of that design anywhere other than the Midlands in the late 40s.

Mary Grant

Hebble – AEC Regent III – CJX 69 – 268


Photographer unknown – if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Hebble Motor Services
1952
AEC Regent III
Willowbrook L55R

This is one of the last batch of Regent IIIs Hebble took delivery of, to say it was new in 1952 it looks as if it was built well before that. I think it is the drivers sloping small window that makes it look older. Although from what I can gather the Willowbrook bodywork had excellent interior finish.

15/08/11 – 13:20

This batch or Regents were type 9612A (A=crash gears) which was a change from the previous Roe bodied Regents which were type 9612E (E=epicyclic pre-selector). I remember them on the Joint Bradford-Huddersfield route 64

Kev