Highland Omnibuses Ltd 1945 Guy Arab II Alexander L27/26RD (1952)
In July 1965 I did a tour of Scotland on a railrover – I think one week though it may have been two – the object of which was to cover as much of the existing passenger rail network as possible, many of the lines being threatened with closure at that time. There was little time to do any bus photography, as arrival in a town at the end of daylight with no booked accommodation meant that finding this was first priority. Then it would be up in the morning for the earliest appropriate departure. One of the very few occasions where leisure was enforced was near the beginning of the adventure, on my arrival in the far north of Scotland. The railway timetable simply didn’t allow the Thurso and Wick branches to be covered exclusively by rail without an inordinate waste of time. Having arrived at Thurso around 4 pm, it was then a matter of finding a bus to take me to Wick, from where I would catch the early train back to Inverness. Highland was very much the ‘Second-hand Rose’ of the Scottish Bus Group, particularly as far as double-deck buses were concerned. As far as I can make out, none were bought new between a Guy Arab IV in 1950 and a batch of Fleetlines in 1978. Having observed (and photographed) a ‘new’ (1963) Lowlander – recently transferred from Central – on the Scrabster service, and a venerable former Scottish Omnibuses Arab II – still with utility body – on the town service to Mount Vernon, I was quite happy to see E8 as seen above turn into the High Street with its destination showing Wick. HGC 147 began life as London Transport G368, a Guy Arab II with Massey H30/26R utility bodywork. LT’s Guys were always odd-men-out, so had a short life, being withdrawn with the expectation of sale for further use in the early 1950s. The Scottish Bus Group took a number of them, and 19 found their way to Western SMT who in 1952 replaced the utility bodies with smart new Alexander low-bridge bodies in their domed style. HGC 147 took WSMT fleet number 1005. 13 years later, the chassis now fully 20 years old, E8 was still looking smart.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Alan Murray-Rust
20/05/19 – 07:24
These Massey G’s were delivered in the second half of 1945 and probably had the weakest, certainly the most ugly, utility bodies of all LT’s vehicles of this type. ‘Ian’s Bus Stop’ website states that she was acquired for use on Dounreay work. She certainly looks smart here and was finally retired in May 1967.
Chris Hebbron
23/05/19 – 06:57
As an afterthought, Alan, I’d hazard a guess that the drivers (and probably conductors) of these venerable vehicles, with austerity bodies or not, would have rued the day that they were ousted by the truly awful Albion Lowlander.
Chris Hebbron
09/06/19 – 10:51
The Guy Arab in its well known guise evolved entirely from the advent of the Second World War, and had it not done so, then, as respected author Robin Hannay confirms, the Guy company would probably have disappeared entirely by 1950. The original Arab FD model (the code stood for forward control type ‘D’, as the previous Guy buses had carried the letter ‘C’ – the ‘D’ did not, as often stated, stand for ‘diesel’) came on the market in 1933, carrying forward much of the design philosophy from the FC Invincible that preceded it, and, indeed, an FC demonstrator was rebuilt by Guy as an Arab. This early Arab design was conceived within the Leyland TD1 school of thought, with the engine, driving position and front bulkhead set back from the front axle; this enabled the accommodation of the Gardner 6LW engine, though the 5LW was the usual power unit. The neater front end structure of the AEC Regent had already arrived in 1929 and, strangely, the contemporary Guy trolleybuses did have a tidy frontal design. 1933 also heralded the appearance of the Leyland TD3 with a compact front end but the somewhat autocratic Sidney Guy maintained his own strong beliefs on the subject of bus design. The production run run of the original double deck Arab lasted until 1936, during which period about 50 were made, though Burton on Trent Corporation Transport, a confirmed user of the 4LW powered Arab in its single deck guise, took six more in 1940 and a further six in 1941. Between 1936 and the early years of the war Guy produced vehicles for the military, but even this activity trailed off when the orders for searchlight vehicles were cancelled as radar played a greater role in detecting enemy aircraft. With the outbreak of war all new bus production was halted, being slightly relaxed subsequently to permit the assembly of ‘unfrozen’ chassis. It soon became clear that something had to be done to meet the urgent need for new buses, and, in 1941, officialdom turned first to Leyland, but also (to general astonishment, since it had not been a significant double deck manufacturer for five years) to Guy. When Leyland withdrew due to the pressures of other wartime work, operator astonishment turned to apprehension that the industry’s needs were to be met solely by the Guy company. The original Arab design was clearly outdated and Major Chapple of Bristol offered Sidney Guy the drawings for the K5G, but Mr Guy was having none of it. His new bus would be a Guy, but the shape of the redesigned chassis showed very close similarities with that of that of the Leyland TD7 (a wartime version of which was originally expected to be supplied also), though established Guy transmission units were incorporated. The subsequent history of the Arab Utility is well documented, and its rugged dependability became legendary, even though the ‘back to front’ selector positions of the original crash gearbox was not a universally popular feature. However, London Transport drivers did not like the Arab, and the members of the G class were disposed of as soon as the new London Transport Executive could get rid of them, even though they were mechanically sound with years of life potentially ahead. In the booming post war public transport period there was a somewhat paranoid attitude by the Labour government about the disposal of nationalised undertakings’ assets to companies within the UK but outside the state fold, and very many of these Arabs were sold abroad instead. Even Edinburgh Corporation had a mighty struggle to get sixty surplus Arabs from LT. However, the Scottish Motor Traction group was nationalised in 1949 and thus became an acceptable recipient for former London machinery which, like HGC 147, then went on to give sterling service for very many years.
Roger Cox
10/06/19 – 07:41
I believe all London Transport’s Guy Utilities had the 5LW engine and this one, despite having the protruding radiator, appears to have had it’s upturned front wings cut back. It also retains the Arab II high bonnet line although I understand a conversion kit was available to achieve the lower bonnet line of the Arab III, perhaps Western thought the extra expense was unjustified – a shame really because it would have made a nice looking bus even better.
Birkenhead Corporation 1944 Guy Arab II Massey H31/28R
From the mid 1920s up to the outbreak of WW2, Birkenhead Corporation had been a confirmed Leyland aficionado, specifying Massey bodywork for a significant proportion of the fleet since 1931. With the advent of WW2 and the utility bus era, Birkenhead was allocated the Guy Arab II, hitherto unknown in its fleet, the first two arriving in 1943 with Weymann H30/26R bodywork. Thereafter Birkenhead managed to have most of their Arabs fitted with Massey H30/26R bodies of that company’s severe utility outline. BG 8557 was one of Birkenhead’s second batch of Arabs totalling twenty two, that arrived in 1944, all of which had Massey bodywork. A further twelve Arab IIs arrived in 1946 with bodywork shared between Massey, Park Royal and Northern Counties. The robust and dependable Arab clearly impressed the Corporation, for Guys featured in its order book at times right up to 1956. BG 8557 was originally numbered 324, but, in 1953, it was one of fifteen selected for rebodying with new Massey H31/28R bodywork when it received the new number 242. This bus was withdrawn in 1969 before becoming part of the new Merseyside PTE, and went into private preservation. It is seen at Brighton on the occasion of the May 1970 HCVC Rally, and now resides with the Wirral Transport Museum.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
18/10/21 – 07:09
Fine, distinctive vehicle! Many thanks to those that saved it and brought it to this superb condition. Seeing the lower-deck seating capacity of 28 I assumed that the new body must have been over 26′ long, but even allowing for the angle of the photograph the rear overhang doesn’t look excessive. A google search then revealed that the original 5LW engine had been replaced by the longer 6LW, but of course Arab IIs were built with the snout whichever engine was installed. I still wonder whether the “new” length may be 26’6″ or thereabouts. Would love to see and hear it in the flesh!
Ian Thompson
19/10/21 – 05:42
Ian, it is possible that the length may be as you surmise, because the body was built to a width of 7ft 9ins for weight constraint reasons. The wartime Arab, like other Utilities, had a relatively heavy chassis because lighter metals formerly employed for certain components were diverted to military needs.
Roger Cox
19/10/21 – 05:45
The seating capacity seems to be an error – see lettering on this photo There is actually a way of getting 28 seats into the lower deck of a 26-footer. By reducing the longitudinal seats over the wheel arches to 2-seaters, it is possible to fit an extra pair of lateral seats, with the seat backs sitting directly on the front of the wheel arches. But that is not the case here.
Peter Williamson
20/10/21 – 06:27
Thanks for that picture, Peter, which corrects a widely misquoted error. Even Bus Lists On The Web gives the incorrect lower deck figure of 28 for all the Birkenhead 1953 rebodied Arabs.
Roger Cox
28/10/21 – 06:54
As a tall person, I was very conscious of how stingy Birkenhead was with legroom, notably the H36/30R layout on the final batches of PD2s. (6 rows of laterals plus 2×3 longitudinal). Although I have no memories of twin seats over the wheel arches on any vehicles, I wonder whether the quoted 28 was originally intended in the way Peter Williamson suggests, and either not implemented or changed at a relatively early point in their new life. The Venture volume on Massey Bros quotes the H31/28R figure, but of course this may still be derived from the same source as the BLOTW entries. Inexplicably I don’t have a copy of T B Maund’s (definitive) volume on the Birkenhead Bus, but it would be interesting to know if there is any comment there.
Harper Bros 1943 Guy Arab I Park Royal H56R rebodied Northern Coachbuilders 1954
This shot is from the Ray Soper gallery contribution titled “Harper Brothers of Heath Hayes” click on the title if you would like to view his Gallery and comments to it. The shot is shown here for indexing purposes but please feel free to make any comment regarding this vehicle either here or on the gallery.
19/05/12 – 16:40
I would like to know exactly where in Heath Hayes the Harper Brothers garage was if anyone knows it would be much appreciated.
Rod
20/05/12 – 07:36
Don’t know about the depot, but the bus was new to Sheffield in 1943, gone by 1949. It was a solo vehicle.
Les Dickinson
20/05/12 – 07:37
I remember Harpers Bros Buses and Coaches very well in my childhood days as they used to go past my old house in Erdington Road, Aldridge and after I left Aldridge with my parents and sister on Saturday 10th June 1961 to move to Lichfield. As me and my parents and sister used to use them to visit our Aunty and Uncle who used to live in Daniels Lane, off Erdington Road, Aldridge
Andrew Holder
20/05/12 – 09:09
Looking at the Gallery, the poor buses look rather battered and neglected so due for the scrapyard yet are not that old so maybe Harpers were not exactly good on maintenance. It’s a shame that these quite characterful vehicles did not have a better life let alone survive.
Richard Leaman
22/05/12 – 14:46
Hi Rod the garage lay between the Cannock Rd and the Hednesford Rd Heath Hayes approx 100yards from the 5 ways island, other than the 1st photo that was taken inside the garage the other photos were taken on ground opposite the rear of the garage on the Cannock Rd prior to Newlands Lane. I think part of the premises are now a tyre depot. They also had a garage on the Stafford Rd Cannock that housed I think 2 Vehicles, a workshop at High Green Cannock where Fleet 14 in Photo at rear of Heath Hayes Garage was re bodied and a Garage that housed a couple of coaches at Aldridge opposite Portland Rd (town end). Hi Richard you are right in thinking some of the buses looked neglected in the photo that’s because they were indeed scrap except for Fleet 31 in the middle of the three half cabs, they were old and had come to the end of there safe working serviceable life. The vehicles that were in service were in fact very well maintained.
Phil Burton
26/05/12 – 20:38
Many thanks Phil. I had a hunch it was down that road somewhere. My partner says that sounds about right think there are flats there now.
Rod
12/06/12 – 07:30
Heath Hayes has a Walsall post code. Could the Guy’s odd destination refer to West Bromwich Albion football ground, “The Hawthorns”?
Pete Davies
12/06/12 – 11:42
Hi Pete. You are indeed right, the destination did in fact mean West Bromwich Albion. Harpers ran football excursion buses to all the local teams on Saturdays and any night matches. The destinations would be Albion, Villa, Wolves etc. If the Team wasn’t on the destination blind, Football would be put up and a painted or chalked destination board would be displayed in the drivers window or in a purpose made destination board holder.
Phil Burton
13/06/12 – 09:44
Did this bus have a replacement utility body whilst in Sheffield service? Quoted as rebodied by NCB, and obviously not a Park Royal, this would seem to be quite an unusual, and interesting occurrence. If so, where did the NCB utility body come from?
John Whitaker
21/09/12 – 06:58
I have never lived in the West Midlands, so my first-hand experience of Harpers is restricted to a visit to the depot and a ride on a what was then a relatively new Daimler Fleetline on their service from Cannock (via a rather roundabout route) into Birmingham. From these experiences, and from general comments in the enthusiast press, I would say that Harpers were considered one of the leading operators of the day – much better thought of than not only other independents, but many NBC subsidiaries, PTEs, and larger municipalities. The fact that a proportion of the fleet was secondhand did nothing to detract from the fleet’s overall presentation, they always bought quality vehicles and looked after them.
David Call
22/09/12 – 07:05
I think David Call is absolutely right. I visited the depot once and it seemed to me at the time like a very well run company both operationally and maintenance wise. I remember that on the day I went, one of the Royal Tigers with Harpers own bodywork was receiving attention in the depot. I also went on a ‘Farewell to Harpers’ tour when it was known that they were selling out to Midland Red. On that occasion I had the interesting experience of travelling on 888 DUK, the Guy Arab V with the odd looking Strachans body. I believe that by then it had a Leyland 0600 engine. It was actually a very sad loss when they closed, a substantial operator which had been well respected. I would admit that their unusual livery perhaps didn’t suit every vehicle, but it was certainly distinctive!
Chris Barker
23/09/12 – 06:32
Contemplate, chaps. It seems that Harper’s and Ledgard’s were soul mates. Are there any other mixed operators like this that the rest of you out there would like to nominate? Pennine? Who else?
David Oldfield
24/09/12 – 07:22
Indeed there are David, I’ve always thought the obvious pair were South Yorkshire and South Notts. So many similarities, it’s almost uncanny. To name a few; both had similar size fleets, both operated busy inter-urban services, both had a blue livery, both were mainly stage service operators but with a modest coaching side too, all of their double deckers were lowbridge or low height, all vehicles were bought in two’s or three’s, both bought all-Leyland PD2’s, then turned to other bodybuilders for PD2’s and PD3’s, both had Atlantean PDR1/3’s with Northern Counties bodies, both later turned to the Fleetline with Leyland engine, again with NCME bodies, both ended with the Olympian. I’m sure there were other similarities but you get my drift!
Chris Barker
15/11/12 – 11:15
I heard a guy was writing a book about Harper Bros. Anyone know if it has been completed?
Rod
15/11/12 – 15:02
The book is ‘Harpers Bus Memories in Colour’, published by Irwell Press, which was due to be available in October 2012 price £12.95. It is listed in the latest MDS Books catalogue, reference IR956.
John Stringer
15/11/12 – 15:53
Paul Roberts book ‘Harpers Bus Memories in Colour’ is still awaited.
Philip Lamb
23/11/12 – 08:19
The book is now on the shelf for purchase.
Phil Burton
06/12/12 – 06:55
There is also another long awaited book being written, this is a far more in depth publication. This one will trace the actual history from day one. I would imagine it is not far away now. I will try and get in touch with the author.
Mick Bullock
21/02/13 – 17:38
The Northern Coachworks Body put on Guy Arab I HWA 714 Fleet No 3 in 1954 was a Lowbridge L27/26R. It finished service December 1963.
Phil Burton
18/10/13 – 07:38
In addition to local football trips, Harpers ran to important away matches too – I remember going to watch Wolves in a cup match at Leeds with my grandmother some time in the 70s. Used to catch Harpers buses between Shire Oak and Brownhills, then Walsall Corporation on to Pipe Hill where footballing grandmother lived (non-footballing one at Shire Oak made a convenient stop off on Sunday when the less frequent services left me to wait in the rain ….)
ex ENOC conductor
22/03/14 – 17:15
In the fifties I grew up as neighbour to Felix Harper and to his neighbour sister Mary Harper in the large houses (286 to 280 Cannock rd) that they had built in the thirties. There was a large field next to our houses which gave access to another large field which lay behind our three houses. This was the hidden junkyard for all the old Harpers buses where a handful of those of us kids ‘in the know’ spent many a happy, forbidden and dangerous hour playing and trespassing.
Sheila James Baggaley
20/09/14 – 06:00
Harpers had a small garage at Aldridge as well along from the Avion cinema. My Dad Jack Preston was the Coop chemist in the same road. Anchor Road. From 1957 until 1965 used to go to school in Lichfield every day on a Harpers bus. In 1958 I had an accident coming home when I fell off one of the single deckers with a sliding door at the front and the back wheel of the bus went over the bottom of my leg. Still limping today. Good old Gloria deluxe.
Bryan Preston
08/10/15 – 14:54
It’s sometime since I made a comment on this post has I didn’t have much more to add, however, I don’t remember inspectors being on Harper’s buses, have I got this right?
Jimmie
06/01/16 – 05:37
No Jimmie, Harold Haytree was the inspector, and also at one stage Bob Finch who was ex police joined the company.
Phil Burton
12/01/16 – 14:07
In my student days, back in 1966, I worked with the company as a conductor for about eight weeks in July / August. Harold Haytree was the Inspector – but his duties didn’t involve any actual inspecting! He was the firm’s ‘presence’ at Cannock Bus Station, and I think he may have had a hand in compiling duty rotas. The fleet comprised mainly ex London Transport type RT double deckers. I recall the purchase and arrival of a replacement for a crash-damaged vehicle – and the scramble for a trophy in the form of the London Transport radiator badge (replaced by a standard AEC radiator badge). My other memory was the uniform – emerald green double-breasted dust jackets with cream facings. Very distinctive! Only, they only had one in stock when I joined: it was much MUCH too big! Having conducted for Liverpool Corporation Passenger Transport the previous summer, I was used to having my own ticket machine (an ‘Ultimate’). At HB, we took any available ‘Setright’ from a hook in the crew room!
Les
13/01/16 – 06:08
Here are a lot of photos of Harper’s vehicles, an amazing assortment which, had they survived, would have made a wonderful museum collection. They had a fair selection of London Transport RT/RTL’s, too. SEE: //www.heathhayeshistory.co.uk/harpers_buses_1/
Chris Hebbron
14/01/16 – 06:02
Thanks for that link to the Harper fleet, Chris- a fascinating array, even though some of the captions are a bit doubtful (e.g. Cravens RT body built in Anglesey). I am also curious about the single deck Guy Arab JVK 654 with its ” back to front gearbox”. Did it have one forward gear and four reverse?
Roger Cox
14/01/16 – 06:39
I think that what would be meant by a ‘back to front’ gearbox would be that one or more gears were in a different position to what might be expected. This wasn’t at all unusual with commercial vehicles – Bedford coaches, for instance, up to and including the VAL14 (but not VAL70) had a so-called ‘Chinese’ gearbox.
David Call
14/01/16 – 10:03
A very common feature of Guy Arab gearboxes was that first and second gears were against the driver’s knee, while third and fourth were nearest to the engine. We had just one such at Ledgard’s Otley depot in the form of my beloved JUA 763. It had been new in 1943 with a dreadful Pickering utility body, but in 1950 was rebodied in the finest tradition by Charles H Roe its twin JUA 762 was at Armley depot from new until the end and was treated likewise at the same time. New recruits, fresh from perhaps a lorry driving job, were often “caught out” by the gear positions and either their errors were audibly heard for miles around or they wondered why the bus would not pull away in top gear which they thought was second !!
Chris Youhill
14/01/16 – 16:23
Most Atkinson lorries and some ERFs had the “Chinese” gearbox. My Tilling Stevens Coach has a 6 speed Chinese box on and I leave a diagram on the dash to remind me
Roger Burdett
14/01/16 – 16:25
It’s the same effect as driving a LHD car- not only do you shunt your front seat passenger into the passing traffic, thinking you are next to open space, but 1 is by your right knee and you then move away for 3 & 4 & even 5 & 6. It don’t feel right! Off (this) topic, Chris- do you know how/why Wallace Arnold had a depot in Royston?
Joe
14/01/16 – 17:32
I’m fairly sure that London Transport’s later deliveries of utility Guy Arabs had a conventional gearbox ‘gate’ and had to cut a couple of inches off the gear levers of one type (probably the non-standard ones) to enable their drivers to distinguish between the two types.
Chris Hebbron
15/01/16 – 06:23
Certainly most, if not all, the “reversed” gearboxes had a maroon knob as a means of distinction – admittedly of little use in the dark !!
Chris Youhill
15/01/16 – 06:24
Yes, I did follow what the caption to the picture was getting at, but my tongue in cheek comment about the gearbox of Guy Arab JVK 654 arose from the fact that this vehicle was an Arab III. The wartime Arab I and earlier batches of Arab II were fitted with the old sliding mesh gearbox with ‘right to left’ upward gear selector positions introduced with the pre war Arab of 1934. Later production Arab IIs had a new design of constant mesh four speed gearbox with the conventional ‘left to right’ gear lever movement. This constant mesh box was the standard fitment to the Arab III – a few had Guy’s own preselector gearbox – so why would JVK 654 have an old crash gearbox installed in place of its original constant mesh unit? Is the caption correct? Perhaps confusion is arising with the Arab I double deckers KRE 849/850, about which no such comment is made. Also, why remark upon this feature in the Guy, but fail to comment similarly about the several Dennis Lancets in the Harper fleet. The Lancet had the Dennis ‘O’ Type gearbox, a four speed sliding mesh unit with a preselected overdrive fifth ratio, and, again, the lever positions were upward from right to left. When in fifth position, the gear stick was well away from the steering column.
Roger Cox
15/01/16 – 14:38
I imagine some contributors will be able to date some of the photographs shown in the ‘Heath Hayes Gallery’ quite accurately, given the vehicles featured. The rear shot of two vehicles in the depot was clearly taken in Midland Red days, since the vehicle on the right is Midland Red 2181 (XUX 417K), the Ford R192/Plaxton B47F acquired by BMMO with the business of Hoggins, Wrockwardine Wood, in 1/74. It was apparently allocated to Heath Hayes depot from 9/74 to 7/75. The shot was presumably taken towards the beginning of that period, since the vehicle on the left, ex-Harper’s 60 (1294 RE),Guy Arab LUF/Burlingham, was ostensibly withdrawn in 10/74. In its brief stay with Midland Red, it would have been fleet number 2260. Did the ex-Harper vehicles not carry MR fleetnumbers, initially? //www.heathhayeshistory.co.uk/Harpers_9_3.
David Call
15/01/16 – 15:46
The first bus I helped preserve was Burton Corporation 18 a Guy Arab 111 rebodied by Massey. It too had a Chinese box so again may have been a refit from another wartime Arab.
Geoff S
16/01/16 – 06:02
Joe, when John Wilson was GM of NT(SE) he was directed by NBC to accept delivery of some LHD Willowbrook Express bodied AEC Reliances for continental services: there were more accidents with these vehicles on the continent (and, perhaps not surprisingly in the UK [although I think they were only licensed for use between London and Dover]) than with RHD coaches – apparently if one is used to driving an RHD vehicle it’s easier to drive one on the continent that it is an LHD vehicle, presumably because the spatial arrangement of the controls remains the same.
Philip Rushworth
16/01/16 – 11:36
Joe, I forgot to answer your question! Wallace Arnold’s Royston depot came with the purchase of G E Billham in 1942 – I think Billham was largely involved with colliery contracts. Castleford depot, acquired with M Box (Castleford) Ltd in 1946, was another depot largely confined to contract operations (although I think some tours duties might have been operated from Castleford depot after Gillards Tours, Normanton, was taken over in 1966. In 1969 the allocation at Royston depot was 22 coaches; Castleford 16 coaches, including two licenced to Gillards.
Philip Rushworth
16/01/16 – 15:14
Interesting Philip. My own experience with occasional hire of LHD cars on the continent is that I just cannot estimate the clearance from the right hand kerb from a left hand driving seat, as I can the left hand kerb from a right hand driving seat. Accordingly I always tend to drive much farther out into the road than necessary.
Stephen Ford
17/01/16 – 06:31
Further to John W (13/6/12) and Phil B (21/2/13), HWA 714 was apparently acquired by Harper’s, chassis only, from Duncan of Law, then fitted with its second hand NCB body and placed in service 4/54. The body was reputedly new c.1949 when it was used to rebody DH 9344, a 1932 Burlingham-bodied Leyland TS3 acquired with the business of Reynolds of Cannock in 6/44. However, I have to say that the body doesn’t look 1949 vintage to me, it looks like, as John W commented, a utility body. They presumably made strong Leyland TS3s in 1932. I am inclined to suppose that Duncan of Law was ultimately superseded by Irvine’s of Law, but I’ll stand corrected, of course. Irvine’s are still operational.
David Call
Correction – Irvine’s of Law ceased in 2012. Adam Duncan sold out to prolific bus company purchaser Sam Anderson, who, only a year or two later, sold on the operation to William Irvine.
18/01/16 – 06:05
The comments about the body are most interesting. It has the look of a utility product but there are certain aspects of it which contradict this, the drivers windscreen and the flat front are most utility like but the side windows appear to have radiused bottom corners, the foremost upper deck side windows have rounded corners on the front upper edge which a utility body would not have had. The front upper deck windows have obviously been rebuilt at some point and appear to be pan glazed. The sliding ventilators are not utility style but NCB did produce some bodies with these on unfrozen AEC chassis earlier in the war, around 1942. If the business of Reynolds was acquired in 6/44 and the body was produced some time after that, there would only have been a short period for it to be regarded as utility because I believe NCB were one of the first bodybuilders to produce a standard post war composite design which I understand appeared in 1945. In addition, I don’t think they built wartime bodywork in any great numbers, perhaps this was a relaxed utility built at the very end of the war. I suppose a photograph of it when it was on the TS3 would be too much to ask for!
Chris Barker
19/01/16 – 06:04
Thanks Philip….WA must have needed some consistent year round trade… Could never understand how such a totally Leeds company wandered so far south. Their fleet was always so up to date, smart and seemed of such quality, as they set off again for Edinburgh and the Trossachs. Then came cheap flights and all the rest.
Joe
19/01/16 – 09:14
Joe, As WA grew and grew it became anything BUT a totally Leeds company, and they had a thriving “stand alone” operation in Torquay. In view of the lovely rural roads and lanes of Devon and Cornwall some of their brand new otherwise standard coaches were built specially to the largely outdated 7’6″ width. Then, at the other end of the UK (sorry Ms Sturgeon), Dicksons of Dundee were taken over, bringing some superb coaches with lovely tartan moquette seating, and a thriving customer base. Some vehicles initially operated from Leeds in Dickson’s smart maroon livery – two lovely Reliances MYJ 764/5 are fondly recalled for instance.
Chris Youhill
20/01/16 – 05:49
Apologies for pushing this thread further in the WA direction, but I’m hoping Chris Youhill will be able to answer something that puzzled me for years. I can see how, with a base in Torquay, WA’s Devon subsidiary could service a programme of extended based in the south west – but how were the programmes based in London (ex Homeland Tours), Northamptonshire (ex United Counties), Bristol (ex Hallens), and the ex-Dicksons Scottish-based tours serviced. And for that after the Glasgow-Skye express service that was taken over fro Skyways? Were coaches and drivers sent out from Leeds on rotation, or were some pick-ups “on line of route”?
Philip Rushworth
21/01/16 – 06:44
I’ve just seen the comments above about “Chinese” gearboxes. I’ve read elsewhere that Guy’s right-to-left gearboxes had maroon gear lever knobs, but I believe this is an error caused by the assumption that an unusual gear arrangement warranted an unusual knob. In fact I’m pretty sure that it was the other way round – the maroon knob was introduced in 1945 to distinguish the new constant-mesh gearbox from its Chinese predecessor. I’m sure I’ve seen some quite late examples, and even UFs or LUFs. I think there is also confusion over Bedfords. Bedford’s own 4-speed gearbox was perfectly conventional. The early Turner 5-speed unit on the VAL14 (also optional on SBs at that time) was unusual in that 1st (rarely used) was on the extreme right opposite reverse, 2nd and 3rd were over on the left, and 4th and 5th were to the right but back-to-front. However, this does not justify the “Chinese” epithet, which refers strictly to arrangements where ascending through the gears means going from right to left, like Chinese writing. The only Bedfords with that arrangement were the SB coaches with the Plaxton C-type modification, which created extra passenger space by raising the floor and pushing the driving position forward, requiring extra linkage for the gearchange. Both Bedford and Turner gear arrangements were then reversed right-to-left.
Peter Williamson
21/01/16 – 15:30
Philip – I’m afraid you’ve caught me on the hop there as I was only very briefly involved in tour coach allocation before returning to driving out of my own choice. I’m pretty sure though that Paul Haywood and Malcolm Hirst will be able to answer that aspect more fully. One driving job though that I did do, just after the Dickson’s takeover, was to travel empty to Dundee one Saturday afternoon and the next morning take a load of tour passengers for their first overnight in Bradford – so that will have been something to do with Dickson’s programme no doubt, although I’m sure that it wasn’t a regular manoeuvre. Around the same time I also had to got to Wetherby (in a company car) to relieve another Leeds driver on a southbound continental tour from Dundee to Southend Airport.
Chris Youhill
03/02/16 – 06:44
A few of you have mentioned names of a few of Harper’s Drivers, I am wondering if anybody would remember my Grandfather, Derek Holden? I’m trying to do at bit of research to surprise my dad and any leads would be fantastic. As far as I am aware he worked for the company durin the 1960’s but could have possibly been earlier than that when he started. Like I said, I have little to go on other than a rough time scale and the fact that my Grandfather was from the Bloxwich/Walsall area.
Rob Holden
14/02/16 – 05:46
Philip Rushworth queries how the Croydon operations of WA were run. I lived in Croydon from 1960 to 1966 and the vehicles were licensed in the Metropolitan Traffic Area and ran from a base effectively on a large traffic island formed by St. James’s Road, Hogarth Crescent and Whitehorse Road. Departures and arrivals used the car park at the Fairfield Halls in Barclay Road.
John Kaye
15/02/16 – 16:06
David Call, Irvine of Law have gone but Irvine (Golden Eagle) of Salsburgh are still in business although they sold their bus service to First in the 1990s. One of their Reliances (LHS 479P) famously left Loughborough with a destination blind reading AIRDIRE.
Stephen Allcroft
16/02/16 – 06:02
In the mid 1930s, Frank Flin operated a small coach business between London and Margate from a base in Park Lane, Croydon, and also ran a booking office in George Street. In 1936 he acquired the tour licences of another Croydon firm, Wilson”s Tours, and in 1937 set up Homeland Tours. At the outbreak of WW2 his seven coaches were commandeered for military use, and, at the cessation of hostilities only two were returned. An order was placed for a replacement fleet of Strachans C37F bodied Leyland Comet CPO2 coaches, //www.na3t.org/road/photo/Hu02356 but securing hotel bookings in the early post war years was very difficult for small tour operators with limited bargaining power. Around this time Leeds based Wallace Arnold was seeking to strengthen its presence in the London area, and opened negotiations with Flin. In 1948 Flin passed his tour licences to Wallace Arnold, but retained his coaches. The travel agency in George Street, though still owned by Frank Flin, then became an agency for Wallace Arnold. The maroon liveried Homeland Leyland Comet coaches continued to run private hire and day excursions, though I believe that they were operated on Flin”s behalf by Wallace Arnold. I used to see them about regularly in the Croydon area of the early 1950s. These operations were sold in 1956 to Bourne and Balmer, by then a Timpson subsidiary, who had a garage and coach station in Dingwall Road. Homeland Tours then became purely a travel agency business. It is now run under the name of Wallace Arnold World Choice by the grandson of Frank Flin in premises in George Street only a short distance from the original shop site. Notwithstanding the name, which is retained with the agreement of Shearings (the current owner of the Wallace Arnold name) it is still an independent business. The site mentioned by John Kaye is in an area known locally as Spurgeon”s Bridge after the adjacent huge Spurgeon”s Tabernacle (aka West Croydon Baptist Church). The bridge itself goes over the railway line from London into West Croydon. I used to cross this junction, then just a straightforward crossroads traversed by the 654 route trolleybuses rather than the convoluted, combined, circulatory systems of today, on my walk to school at Selhurst.
Roger Cox
16/02/16 – 08:38
This seems to be a revealing tale, Roger. The various changes and absorptions seem to have been negotiated with goodwill, and not the pac-man methods more evident today: there seems to be the idea that there could be a living for everyone. WA always seemed a decent outfit, unless others know different…
Joe
16/02/16 – 15:21
I am sure that your reading of the business relationship between Homeland Tours and Wallace Arnold is exactly correct, Joe. One imagines that the representatives of the two firms happened to meet up during tour planning/operations in the early post-war period, and saw the benefits to be accrued from joint working arrangements. That the two businesses held each other in real respect is manifest in the Wallace Arnold trading name that John Flin, the present proprietor of the Homeland Croydon agency, has adopted in the present day.
Roger Cox
17/02/16 – 05:48
Many thanks for replying – just one more thing! WA’s Croydon site was it covered/under-cover? were there maintenance facilities??. The history of London-area coaching operations is fascinating: Tom McLachlan’s “Grey-Green and contemporaries Vol 1” (taking the story to 1960) was published in in 2007 – I’m still waiting for Vol 2. And writing of delayed publication dates, on 06.XII.12 Mick Bullock promised publication of an in depth history of Harpers – now that’s another book I’m eagerly awaiting . . .
Philip Rushworth
18/02/16 – 05:51
Wallace Arnold lives on in room 136 Burlington Hotel Eastbourne Feb 2016 a little thread bear in places.
Ken Wragg
18/02/16 – 10:19
The WA’s are fairly subtle, Ken, you wouldn’t notice, if you didn’t know! Why is it there and how did you know it was there?
Chris Hebbron
18/02/16 – 10:20
Ken, an amazing discovery in the weave of the carpet – does it actually refer to the coaching giant, or is it a pure coincidence?? Also, I’m sure I recall that either a TV documentary, or possibly a bought DVD, featured Barbara Flin in her days as a courier on some of the first ambitious Continental tours, to Interlaken in particular. She eventually had a major victory against the snooty Manager of a leading hotel (still there now) in Interlaken when he “banished” her and the driver to a quiet corner of the ballroom to eat, rather than allowing them to dine in style with their passengers. Eventually she won and they were restored to their rightful place in the Dining Room. I may be wrong, time dulls the memory, but I’m sure she was eventually the wife of Francis Flin at Croydon – can anyone confirm please, or shall I “get mi ‘at.”
Chris Youhill
18/02/16 – 11:56
This discovery of Wallace Arnold carpet was in the room allocated during a holiday last week at the Burlington Hotel Eastbourne (an old Wallace Arnold hotel). I was happy to see this memento of the past but it does not show the quality I expect of the Holiday Co that owns the hotel. I add the other photo of carpet.
Ken Wragg
19/02/16 – 05:41
Phillip, I am also eagerly awaiting volume 2 of Tom McLachlan’s book. I understand that, although he now has health problems , the final draft was finished some years ago and it is hoped that his son will complete the book.
Nigel Turner
19/02/16 – 05:42
Oh dear Ken – the second photo shows that it high time the carpet was chucked out – I hope that the rest of the hotel and in particular the cleanliness and the food were much fresher !!
Chris Youhill
19/02/16 – 05:43
Thanks for thinking of photographing – I might offer to take it off their hands should they ever get round to re-decorating! “Dear Manager, As a resident of Leeds you will understand my interest in acquiring certain carpets, should they become available . . . “ Latterly WA owned eight hotels: Pentire Hotel, Newquay; County Hotel, Llandudno; Trecarn Hotel, Torquay; Savoy Hotel, Bournemouth; Grand Hotel, Exmouth; Broadway Park Hotel, Sandown; The Fife Arms, Braemar; and the Burlington. Shearings owned quite a number of hotels, more than WA, at the time of the “merge-over”
Philip Rushworth
19/02/16 – 09:32
Philip – despite the similarity in names with Trecarne didn’t WA also own the Tolcarne Hotel, also I believe in Devon ??
Chris Youhill
19/02/16 – 15:26
A wonderful story, Chris, and I am sure that your identification of the redoubtable lady who challenged the preposterous social status nonsense of a certain hotel manager is entirely accurate. The spelling of the name “Flin” is unusual, and the likelihood of there being another lady in the tour business with the first name of Barbara must be pretty remote. Frank Flin died in 1962, and the Homeland agency then passed to his son, Francis John Flin, whose wife is Barbara Mary Flin, now in her eighties. Both are still shown as directors of the business. Their son, John Richard Flin, currently runs the firm. (“So you can leave t” “at “anging in t” “all.” Apologies if my West Riding dialect is all wrong – my mother came from the East Riding.) Apparently the old close and rewarding relationship with Wallace Arnold was lost with the Shearings takeover, to the detriment of the travel agency business, but matters did recover to some degree subsequently. On the subject of the Wallace Arnold depot at Spurgeon”s Bridge, Croydon, I cannot personally recall much about it. However, the Commercial Motor Archive tells us that around a dozen coaches were drafted in during the summer months, though whether or not this means that the base was only used in summer, or that a smaller winter allocation was augmented for the season, is unclear. I would surmise that the facilities there were pretty basic. Apparently, the depot was closed finally in 1985, whereupon Wallace Arnold then stationed some 30 vehicles at the London Buses Norwood Garage, which was contracted to clean and refuel them. This indicates that mechanical maintenance work was undertaken elsewhere.
Roger Cox
20/02/16 – 05:04
Mention of the Flin family in Croydon reminds me of a brief period when I worked in their office in the winter of 1964/65. At that time I worked in the WA Traffic Office in Leeds and volunteered to spend a week filling and addressing envelopes with tour brochures in the Flin/WA office. Highlights of the week included travelling down from Leeds to London on a brown/cream Pullman (2nd class of course). For safety (being a snivelling 16 year old) my parents insisted I stay with my aunt rather than in a dubious B&B. This was fine with me as I made the daily commute on red (Central Area) and green (Country Area) RTs from Tolworth to Croydon via Epsom. Sadly, because of the time of year, most of the rides were in the dark, but I felt really grown-up being a London commuter! A final memory is of the kindness (and tolerance) of the Flin family, one of whom gave me a publicity photo of their Homeland Tours Duplex coach JVB 908 (see www.sct61.org.uk/zzjvb908)
Paul Haywood
21/02/16 – 05:56
Roger and Paul – curiosity has just made me seek out the footage with Barbara Flyn and her account of the stuffy Interlaken Jungfrau Hotel is as I remembered it. It was a Channel 4 programme called “The golden years of coach travel” or something similar, and is excellent throughout. The links feature Stephen Barber of WA and a fascinating Lancashire chap who was a lifelong passenger with Yelloways of Rochdale. Paul – I never knew of your little adventure to Croydon – I would gladly have done the same and written a few envelopes to “fund” it.
Chris Youhill
21/02/16 – 15:47
I recall that programme, Chris. It was “The Golden Age Of Coach Travel”. I made a DVD copy of it for a former work colleague at Peterborough, who told me about the no holds barred scramble to get away from Cheltenham when the “departure pistol” went off for all coaches to leave at the same time. Drivers who had communed jovially during the break period then jostled mercilessly to get out and away from the queue that quickly formed at the exit. The programme is still available on Youtube and I’ve just watched it again. Notwithstanding a few inconsistencies, it is a fascinating record of a time that, sadly, has totally gone.
Roger Cox
21/02/16 – 15:48
I’ve found “The Golden Age of Coach Travel” on YouTube. It is a BBC production of 2010. There are some wonderful anecdotes about the ‘services’ the drivers’ provided, some dubious! Here’s the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrDQ9SNYwyc
Chris Hebbron
22/02/16 – 06:15
Does any one remember the series on TV featuring a driver called Cannonball doing a Devon/Cornwall tour for Wallace Arnold is it still available.
Ken Wragg
22/02/16 – 09:03
‘Cannonball’ certainly appears in the above documentary, but is only one of several drivers saying their piece.
Chris Hebbron
23/02/16 – 05:26
Chris Y. At the time of the brochure from which I copied the hotels list above – mid 1990s? as there were a mix of van Hool/Jonckheere/Plaxton-bodied coaches pictured – there was no mention of the Tolcarne Hotel, but I’ve done a quick Google and there was a Tolcarne Hotel in Newquay . . . “filthy and old-fashioned” according the last TripAdvisor comment in 2008. And whilst I was about that I also Googled “Barbara Flynn” [sic], who apparently has been married to a Jeremy Taylor since 1982/34y-old, so the Homeland Tours connection is looking a bit weak here! Don’t get your coat though – I’d miss your knowledgeable contributions (although I might take any further contributions about the performing arts with a pinch of salt!).
Philip Rushworth
23/02/16 – 10:43
Phillip, you are looking at Barbara Flynn the actress. She played, along with many other parts, the Milk Lady in ‘Open All Hours’, and appeared with James Bolam in the Beiderbecke Trilogy. The Barbara Flin in the Golden Age of Coaching was a different lady altogether, and was a Courier/Guide with Wallace Arnold.
Stephen Howarth
23/02/16 – 10:46
It’s not Barbara Flynn, it’s Barbara Flin, Philip. This lady is now in her eighties, and, with her husband Francis, is still a director of the Wallace Arnold World Wide agency in Croydon. (Hasn’t this discussion come a long way from a wartime Guy Arab!)
Roger Cox
13/03/16 – 14:48
I was beginning to wonder if I was on the right page here seeing as I’ve had to wade through loads of comments nothing to do with Harper Bros. The Guy JVK 654 was bought as a chassis and was fitted with a Lawton body, nothing in the Heath Hayes History caption says it was a crash box, only that it was back to front which it was. 1st & 2nd gear nearest the driver 3rd & 4th nearest the engine. Regarding the RT’s, All the Leylands were from London and the first two AEC’s with Craven Bodies built in Anglesey as caption states, Fleet No’s 2 & 12 KGK 729 & KGK 738.The other seven RTA’s were from St Helens purchased 61/2.
Phil Burton
14/03/16 – 06:53
All Guy Arab I and the great majority of Arab II chassis were fitted with the Guy four speed sliding mesh gearbox with the ‘right to left’ upward selector positions and the double plate clutch inherited from the early 1934 Arab model. Arab IIs from late 1945 onwards had the new Guy constant mesh box which had a conventional ‘left to right’ selector gate coupled with a single plate clutch. This gearbox/clutch combination then went into the new Arab III that was available from late 1946.
Roger Cox
14/03/16 – 06:53
The assumption that a right-to-left gearbox would be “crash” comes from the fact that the only gearbox Guy built to that pattern was the unit used in wartime Arabs, which was sliding-mesh. The most likely explanation is that the Arab III acquired a gearbox from a defunct utility double-decker later in life. The point about the Craven bodies on the RTs is that they were built in Sheffield, not Anglesey. It was Saunders bodies that were built in Anglesey.
Peter Williamson
17/03/16 – 15:16
Of course you are right Peter, the Cravens bodies were built in Sheffield as you say, I put it down to c-nile dementia, I’m getting old lol. The Guy JVK 653 was new in 1946 but came to Harpers as just a chassis in 1954 and a Lawton body was fitted. The gear knob was maroon and of a mushroom shape rather than a ball
Phil Burton
28/03/16 – 11:38
I’m an lifelong Villa fan and have just been given a very old bus blind (shown here framed and back lit) by a mate of mine here in New Zealand – he brings in vintage stuff from the UK to sell on in this part of the world – the cloth blind has a sloping font and 7 destinations ‘FOOTBALL’ ‘WOLVES’ ‘VILLA’ ‘ALBION’ ‘TO THE SHOW’ ‘SPECIAL’ and ‘EXCURSION’. He knew, because of the sloping font, that it came off a 40’s / 50’s bus and after hunting around the internet my guess, after reading this page and in particular the post on 12/06/12 by Phil Burton, is that it came of a Harper Bros bus. Looking at the images I can find my guess is that it came off a/the Guy Arab III with Lawton bodywork.
George Shaw
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
10/04/16 – 05:24
Homeland Tours owned a booking office in Park Lane Croydon, on the corner of Park Street in the 1950s. Their fleet of Leyland coaches were kept at the Regal Garage in the Old Kent Road. The owners of the Regal Garage sold it to new owners in 1955, and Homeland Tours were asked to vacate the premises. The Homeland Tours fleet was sold to Bourne and Balmer of Croydon, a subsidiary company of Timpsons since 1953. The two Homeland Tours Leyland Tiger Cubs with underfloor engines MBY 909, MBY 910,were kept by Bourne and Balmer, but the normal control Leyland Comets were sold to dealers. Homeland Tours became an agent for Wallace Arnold, and the Park Lane office traded under the Wallace Arnold name. The building was sold some years later, and they moved around the corner to George Street. At least one of the Leyland Comets went to work for Chiltern Queens in Oxford.
Photographs by “unknown” if you took these photos please go to the copyright page.
Samuel Ledgard Guy Arab I 1943 Pickering H30/26R Re-bodied 1953 Roe H31/25R
Much has been widely written about World War II utility bodywork and the appearance and durability of the various makes. Possibly the least numerous were the bodies by Pickering of Wishaw, the uppermost shot of one of the two Samuel Ledgard examples been shown here. JUA 762 was an Arab FD1 with the flush bonnet and Gardner 5LW engine. It has to be said that the Pickering bodies quickly deteriorated structurally and soon became a very sad sight. This picture clearly shows the most unusual, and extravagant in the circumstances, upper saloon emergency exit with three large glass panes. This bus and its FD2 twin were new in 1943 and in 1951 they were rebodied by Roe as shown in the lower view, and initially retained their 5LW engines. In 1956 they received 6LW units which necessitated the lengthening of the bonnet for JUA 762 – JUA 763 (lower picture) being an FD2 model was of course all ready for the longer engine without such a modification. There were many anomalies in the allocation of vehicles by the Ministry of Supply in those dark days and here we have a classic example – one of each model delivered together. On the theme of utility bodies in general I have to say that I thought that the Duple offering was of very pleasing appearance and, from my experience of working on them, possibly the soundest and most durable in construction. The shapely Northern Counties bodies were, of course, a most pleasing exception to the rule in their own right.
Photographs and Copy contributed by Chris Youhill
Bus tickets issued by this operator can be viewed here.
Go on Chris- explain about the Emergency Exit: I always take it as a door at the upstairs back from which some unfortunate youth occasionally drops: (in my day we would not have dared to annoy the conductor by even touching it and would ever after have to sit downstairs) was that non-utility? Were there 3 kickout panes – presumably on each side? I would also like someone to tell me why these 6 cylinder Guys had to have snout extensions, sometimes if I recall with a radiator shrouded in leather? Were Gardner engines longer than say Daimler or Leyland?
Joe
I don’t think Joe that there is anything dramatic about the emergency exits on the utility Pickering bodies. Presumably it was simply their own design but seemed rather extravagant under the Wartime shortages. The two vertical dividing pieces can just be made out in the picture and the total glazed area is quite enormous. I have spoken to a very knowledgeable friend about your second question which had me foxed. Seemingly there was no excessive length in the Gardner 6LW engines and the reason for the “snouts” is quite fascinating. The wartime Arabs were seemingly designed with consideration being given to the Ministry orders that they were all to be fitted with 5LW engines in the interests of fuel economy. After early deliveries it appears that operators in hilly districts complained that performance was not adequate and therefore the FD2 was introduced with space for the longer six cylinder unit in a few cases where “hilly hardship” could be proved. As the chassis had been designed with transmission components arranged to suit the shorter engine the only practicable course was to provide “the snout” and the somewhat untidy but fascinating leather “filler.” Presumably the bonnet itself remained the same for each version, and my informant believes that a dispensation was granted as the alteration caused the vehicle length to slightly exceed the 26 foot maximum of the time.
Chris Youhill
Sorry- I’ve seen it: the two glazing bars at the back. Perhaps they had three long pieces of glass in the shed left over from a carriage contract- doors? (that’s a wild guess!). I thought you meant those three plain windows at the rear- but then you had privileged access to the back!
Joe
I wish someone would produce, like magic, a full rear view of the Pickering bodies – nobody seems to have one – and I was really glad when this nearside view turned up quite recently as the strange emergency door glazing can at least just be seen – I was beginning to fear that my memories of teenage years was perhaps playing tricks on me.
Chris Youhill
Obviously, everyone goes for the standard 3/4 front view picture, and I have no dispute with that. Very few people seemed to take the equally characterful rear 3/4 shots, and even less managed to capture the interior atmosphere – the different designs of seats, light fittings, bell-pushes, framing etc. Of course, interior shots in the pre-digital era meant extra expense on flash, and not entirely satisfactory results because of glare from glazed surfaces and so on. But the interior (and of course the sound) was THE bus travel experience. Any interior and/or rear shots out there?
Stephen Ford
The ‘snout’ was a means of accommodating the extra length of the six-cylinder (6LW) Gardner engine when it replaced the five-cylinder (5LW) unit. Gardners were generally quite long engines for their capacity. This was due them having a ‘timing case’ of generous proportions, housing a triplex timing chain, and also due to the arrangement of the cylinder blocks. The latter were split into pairs, so a 4LW would have two 2-cylinder blocks, a 6LW two 3-cylinder blocks and a 5LW would have a 3-cylinder plus a 2-cylinder block (no doubt today this would be termed ‘modular construction’!). This arrangement added to engine length as the water jacket had to extend around both ends of each block, and there was a gap between each block as well. The original Guy Arab utility ‘decker was built to the 26ft overall length of the period. By the time Sammie’s ‘twins’ were re-bodied, double-decker dimensions had been increased to 27ft. Thus a more powerful, but longer 6LW could be fitted by extending the bonnet and moving the radiator forward to accommodate it. The alternative would have been to have the rear of engine protrude into the lower saloon, no doubt entailing modifying the front bulkhead, shortening the prop shaft and altering the gearchange linkages. Possibly the chassis cross member behind the engine would require attention as well. Moving things in a forward direction was much simpler! Apparently after production of the first 500 utility Guy Arabs, the bonnets were lengthened in order to accommodate 6LW engines, should operators require them. Special dispensation was authorised to allow for their slightly increased overall length. These became known as Arab Mark IIs, with the original design, unofficially I believe, becoming the MkI. As you say Chris, one of those anomalies of the time – the two buses must have been ‘on the cusp’ in production as it were, hence an FD1 and an FD2 delivered together. Interesting stuff!
Brendan Smith
Thanks indeed Brendan for those most interesting facts about Gardner engines. While I’ve always been aware of the method of producing 4, 5, or 6 cylinder units by combining two blocks as necessary, I certainly never suspected the extra problems of multiple cooling jackets and intermediate gaps !! I have just looked up the records and am amazed to discover that JUA 762 and 763 were, despite the consecutive registration numbers, delivered and entered service five months apart – and there is a gap of 69 between the two chassis numbers. This seems to suggest that there was perhaps a “holding back” of some vehicles by The Ministry of Supply while they decided which operators could prove the greatest need at a particular time.
Chris Youhill
Some of the most attractive buses which LGOC/LT had in the Thirties/Forties were the 6-wheeler AEC Renown ‘Bluebirds’ LT Class, which were the last of the breed. The last 20, however, were fitted with Gardner 6LW engines which made the bonnets so long that the bodywork design had to be shortened (at the back) to keep them within the legal length! It showed in the upstairs side rear windows and the platform side opening being shorter! And they looked like pigs with their snouts!
Chris Hebbron
03/06/11 – 17:12
Can anyone remember Nudd Brothers and Lockyer of Kegworth Nottm., who rebuilt utility bodied ex London Transport Guy Arabs for Edinburgh in the early Fifties, which had a full front but open to the near side, very smart looking buses.
Roger Broughton
04/06/11 – 06:43
I agree Chris H that the “Bluebirds” were magnificent looking vehicles, and incredibly sleek and of tidy design for the early 1930s – and actually I could also forgive the appearance of the “long bonnet” Gardner powered ones – I was once told that they were fitted with special horns which went “oink oink”, and if you’ll believe that you’ll believe anything !!
Chris Youhill
04/06/11 – 06:46
Yes, the Edinburgh Nudd rebuilds were very attractive, and it wasn’t just the side that was open: there was no glass in the nearside ‘windscreen’ either. They were in fact halfcabs disguised as full fronts. They were built just after the company was taken over by Duple, and based on a Duple design. By coincidence we have just been discussing Nudd Bros & Lockyer in another context. Click on this quick link, wait a second or two to view.
Peter Williamson
05/06/11 – 14:19
As for pigs, Chris Y, I thought the only buses which oink-oink’ed were the Dennis ‘pigs’, the pre-war Dennis Aces and Maces!
I do recall reading somewhere that the Nudd Edinburgh Guy bodies were somewhat frail. They were designed to be lightweight, maybe they were too lightweight!
Chris Hebbron
05/06/11 – 14:22
When first delivered the rebuilt Edinburgh Guys had a very flamboyant “grille: this was later replaced by Edinburgh’s own version of the Leyland BMMO inspired tin front. Preserved 314 JWS594 has had the original flamboyant front restored and is now resident at the Scottish Bus Museum at Lathalmond.
Chris Hough
05/06/11 – 14:23
I tend to think that the Edinburgh Guy’s were the only complete bodies ever produced by Nudd Bros & Lockyer. I believe all of their other production were re-builds.
Chris Barker
07/06/11 – 09:36
They were certainly attractive buses, even with the flamboyant front! See here:
Chris Hebbron
10/07/11 – 07:47
Pickering of Wishaw was set up in 1864, and was mainly a constructor of railway rolling stock. It seems that only about 37 Pickering utility bodies, all of them highbridge, were built in 1943, and no further bodies by this firm appeared during the war. They quickly became known for shoddy workmanship, and, notwithstanding official exhortations such as “Walls have Ears”, “Be like Dad, keep Mum” and “Careless Talk costs Lives”, this appalling reputation spread throughout the bus industry. It is surely certain that this also came to the knowledge of The Ministry of Supply, and was the reason for no further utility bodies being sought from the Pickering company.
Roger Cox
11/07/11 – 07:22
That is most interesting Roger and, while I knew that there weren’t many Pickering utilities around, I had no idea that there were as few as that – regardless of censorship one might be forgiven for saying that there were approximately 37 too many. On the bright side, however, their awful quality and very early demise caused the excellent Roe rebodying of the two Ledgard examples and brought to my career one of the most delightful and characterful vehicles (JUA 763) that I ever conducted and drove. RIP “T’Guy.”
Chris Youhill
11/07/11 – 11:18
I recently discovered that Nottingham City Transport were “blessed” with 5 Pickering-bodied Guy Arab I’s in 1943. They were No.s 89-93 (GTV409-413?). In the published Geoff Atkins photo the 3-piece window to the emergency door is also discernible. Nottingham’s Utility fleet eventually had a total of 16 Arabs, the remaining 12 being Massey or Weymann, plus 27 Daimler CWA6s with Northern Counties, Brush or Duple. Apparently the first Utilities were not withdrawn until 1956, so it seems that even the wretched Pickering bodies must have lasted at least 13 years.
Stephen Ford
12/07/11 – 05:40
The Pickering story is indeed an interesting one and I have done a little research and it seems there are a few inconsistencies. In an article in Classic Bus in 1993 about Pickering’s link with Northern General, a figure of around 65 double deck utilities is given, mostly on Guy Arabs but also some Leyland TD7’s and some re-bodies of older chassis. Some of the Guys went to Sunderland District and Sunderland Corporation purchased two from Blackburn Corporation in 1948 (so they had a re-sale value!) These clearly did not have the three pane upper deck emergency exit but the Nottingham ones did. Turning to single deckers, it is recorded that Pickering bodied 54 Albion CX13’s to MoS specification in 1946, 30 of which went to Red and White, others to Economic of Sunderland and South Yorkshire. In fact Red and White had 22 more Albion/Pickerings in 1947 but by this date, presumably there would have been no MoS involvement. Most but not all R & W vehicles were re-bodied by BBW after 5 or 6 years and Ledgard’s purchase of five in 1959 were ex Pickering re-bodies (perhaps Chris Y knows if the BBW bodies were much better?) Apparently Northern General had around a hundred vehicles re-bodied by Pickering, on AEC and SOS chassis and the average further life was about nine years, presumably by the end of the 1950’s they had become distinctly archaic! There were also ten Meadows engined Guy Arab III double deckers for Tynemouth in 1949 and these were of very pleasing appearance, they appeared to be of substantial construction and I know nothing about them but I wonder if they went any way towards making amends for what had been produced earlier.
Chris Barker
12/07/11 – 14:47
According to Alan Townsin`s book, “The Utilities” in the Best of British Buses series, Pickering produced 18 utility bodies on Mk.1 Arabs, and 37 on Mk.2 in 1943. There is no mention of any other bus build until the Albion contract of 1946, and I am not aware of any Pickering bodies on CWG5 chassis. Perhaps they were busy with other wartime contracts, as the whole bus building business was under the strict control of the MOWT, and based on a contract system. I suspect that Pickering was no worse than most other utility bus builders of that time, as most makes demonstrated severe problems with the use of unseasoned timber, and the lack of alloy metals. I cannot comment on the 1946 Albion single deck contract, which was largely allocated to the Scottish Bus Group, but there was certainly nothing wrong with the post war Aberdeen streamlined trams, which exuded quality!
John Whitaker
13/07/11 – 07:33
Your research is interesting Chris, as I have since realised that there were some Pickering bodies on unfrozen TD7, which would probably account for the difference between Alan Townsin`s 55 Guys, and your total of 65. Certainly Leicester had a Pickering TD7. I cannot think of any rebodies at the moment, but there probably were some, but definitely none on Daimler wartime chassis. CWG5 chassis were only bodied by Duple and Massey (High) and Brush (low). Glasgow received several batches of post war Pickering bodies which had reasonable lives I believe. Regarding the triple rear window, was this a unique feature, or am I correct in thinking that a very early Duple bodied Arab 1 for Maidstone had a similar feature? Was the triple window even carried on after the first few bodies, or did Pickering comply with the utility directive at that time, and panel over the whole thing?
John Whitaker
13/07/11 – 08:47
Re. Pickering utility bodies, I have re-read Alan Townsin”s Utility book. If I read correctly, Pickering would not have built any utility bodies on reconditioned chassis, as “rebodying” was also controlled by the MOWT, and firms were allocated this function, Pickering not being one of them. East Lancs and NCB were the principle firms here, with Croft also involved in Scotland. The whole utility chapter is absolutely fascinating! I personally find as many differences in design amongst utility bodies as existed in peacetime. Beauty is in the eye of the Beholder, and they have a fascination and charm of their own to me!
John Whitaker
13/07/11 – 11:57
Hanson of Huddersfield received four Pickering bodied Albion CX13’s in late 1945, 186-189 (CCX 880-3) and a further four, 196-9 (CVH 226-9) in 1946. All had been withdrawn by 1950. 186-9 were sold to Carmichael of Glenboig (a photo exists of 186 with Carmichael with the body apparently heavily rebuilt) and 196-9 were sold to Birkenshaw Mills for staff transport, suggesting that these bodies were perhaps considered to be too badly deteriorated for further psv use. Incidentally, a further four Albions were taken into stock in 1947/48 two with Burlingham and two with Duple bus bodies and these remained in service till 1958-62
Eric
14/07/11 – 06:33
Opinions, respected naturally, seem to vary on the quality of the Pickering utility double deckers and I can only speak from personal experience as a youthful passenger in two of them on Guy Arab chassis. Sadly I have to say that they very rapidly deteriorated into a sorry state and were also I think far from handsome. While I appreciate that unseasoned timber and other unsatisfactory materials caused problems in most makes I have to say that, again from personal experience this time including driving and conducting, we had no significant trouble with the Duple and Roe versions, both of which were tidy looking and attractive in their “utility” way and many examples of ours gave very long service. Oddly the Park Royal “relaxed” vehicles (London Transport D182 – 281) which didn’t enter service until May 1946 onwards did involve very serious timber problems and much rebuilding was often needed. Despite this however, once “fettled” they too gave long and extremely reliable service on arduous and busy routes and I admired and delighted in them – their various “London” features adding to the magic – we had twenty two out of the hundred, quite an impressive proportion I think. Regarding the Albions, rebodied from Pickering to BBW. I had experience only of the Ledgard five and they were splendid machines. The BBW bodies appeared sound and of course bore a close resemblance to their attractive Lowestoft ECW cousins. The Albion chassis were a potent delight with one of the quietest and smoothest diesel engines to be found – and the gearbox gave a creditable impersonation of prewar Leyland TS and TD models – altogether a fascinating package !!
Chris Youhill
14/07/11 – 06:36
Certainly the wartime utility bodies suffered from the use of unseasoned ash, and materials were strictly allocated to manufacturers who had to take what they were given. Even so, some body manufacturers had better construction standards than others, and generally did a good job in difficult circumstances. In such worthy company, Pickering did not measure up too well. Didn’t one municipality cancel its order for Guys when it learned that they would be bodied by Pickering? Nowadays, railway stock design requires the entire vehicle to bear the stresses. Traditionally, in the past, railway and tram bodies relied on substantial under frames to carry the main loads, and rail borne vehicles are not subject to the same level of shocks and jolts as a road vehicle. Perhaps the bus body designs of the railway orientated Pickering concern did not take such factors sufficiently into account.
Roger Cox
14/07/11 – 09:51
It has to be remembered, too, that each bodybuilder, bizarrely, was able to design its own body; thus some designs were probably structurally sounder, to start with, than others. And I recall that at least one bodybuilder rejected some timber as being, even for those dark times, beyond the pale! London Transport were always impressed with the Duple product, even though they never used them in normal times. But even they gave up on overhauling the bodies as part of their normal high standards, opting to dispose of them prematurely. Since many of them then went to humid Far East climes, I wonder how they fared there! As for the escape upstairs rear windows, although many of London’s Guys had them steel-sheeted over, I don’t recall any of the 181 earlier Daimlers being so treated.
Chris Hebbron
14/07/11 – 18:58
I was delighted to read responses about Pickering utility bodies, and accept that they must have been a bit on the flimsy side, but it is just that I find them, and all utilities, absolutely fascinating! Leicester had a Pickering TD7 which they cut down to single deck in 1950, and it ran, although rarely, as such until 1955! (No.347) I think it is true to say, though, that all builders in this era had their problems. The Brush CWA6 bodies in Manchester hardly had long lives, and Park Royal trolleybus bodies were withdrawn very early in both Newcastle and Reading. I would agree with Chris Y about Duple, as Alan Townsin also came to that conclusion too, and who better to judge than that?! It was probably due to the wedge shaped stiffener at the front near side canopy area. Pickering were basically rolling stock (railway) builders, which is probably significant, but so were Roberts, and Hurst Nelson. The latter were the third biggest Tramcar builder in the UK, but only VERY rarely did they venture into the bus field. I believe the panelled emergency exit was a requirement which was relaxed in early 1943.
John Whitaker
15/07/11 – 07:29
I believe that the municipal who cancelled their Pickering allocation was Derby, who would have recevied two on Guy Arab I 5LW chassis. The MoWT allocation system usually meant that body buiilders in the north had their products delivered to operators in the north, and similarly for southern builders to southern operators. This was a general rule, I believe. So Derby was “quite southern” for a Pickering build. But where did these two go? – all the way to Brighton, where they entered the Brighton Hove & District fleet! Nos 6364/6365 (GNJ 574-5) lasted there from 1943-1949. Although neighbouring Southdown has 100 Guy utilities, BH&D found this pair non-standard. Their other utilities were Park-Royal bodied Bristol Ks. The two Guys found themselves transferred in 1949 to Western National, where they operated out of Plymouth garage. (This is from a memory of a photo in Buses Illustrated many years ago). I have no information as to how long they stayed there, although WNOC did have other Guy Arab utilities delivered new, so the chassis would have been acceptable. I have read comments elsewhere (I think in “Classic Bus” magazine) that several builders of rail vehicles had a hard time when entering the bus building business. Pickerings is usually quoted as the prime example, and Cravens also get a mention.
One contributor mentioned the post-war streamlined Aberdeen trams, which he said were good products. An article in Classic Bus a while ago recorded that Aberdeen wanted English Electric to build these trams, and placed their order. However, EEC had decided to withdraw from the tram/bus market by then, so would not accept an order. However they had drawings of the design that Aberdeen wanted. The Corporation then placed it’s order with Pickerings, who approached EEC for copies of the drawings. EEC not liking this intrusion, refused the request. What to do? Aberdeen then resubmitted their order to EEC, who then subcontracted the work to Pickerings, and sent them the drawings for the contract! I hope I have this right – if the Classic Bus contributor or another reader spots an error in this, please send in a correction.
Michael Hampton
15/07/11 – 10:47
Yes Michael, I believe you have that right! The Aberdeen streamliners were actually an EEC design, as shown by the 4 pre-war almost identical examples (inc. the 2 x 4 wheelers). English Electric withdrew from this business and did not re-enter after the war, so the Aberdeen cars were built by Pickering to the pre war EEC drawings.
John Whitaker
15/07/11 – 10:47
Michael H Mentions Cravens in his list of bodybuilders This Sheffield based firm built several batches of vehicles for its home town and also for others as far afield as Portsmouth In post war years they built AECs for Sheffield and RTs for London Their latter were sold on as non standard in the fifties but ran happily for others somewhat in the manner of DMS class buses a decade or too later. I think although this is open to clarification Cravens became part of John Brown engineering as did East Lancs for a time in the sixties East Lancs designed buses were built in Sheffield under the Neepsend name in the old Cravens factory
Chris Hough
15/07/11 – 13:59
Yes, I recall Cravens bodied 45 AEC Regents 5 Regals for Nottingham City Transport in 1937. It was the old story – they undercut previous suppliers Metro Cammell and Northern Counties and got the business. Build quality was not up to scratch, and serious rebuilding was necessary – making them actually more expensive in the long run. Two quotes come to mind : 1. “The bitterness of poor quality lives on long after the sweetness of low initial cost has been forgotten”! 2. Reporter’s question to astronaut : “What do you think about when you are waiting for blast-off?” Reply : “I think that every component in this spacecraft went out to competitive tender, and the lowest price won” !
Stephen Ford
15/07/11 – 14:01
Strictly speaking, Cravens bought East Lancs directly – as noted in the TPC/Venture book about East Lancs. Cravens then sold out to John Brown. The Neepsend bodies were built in another factory at Neepsend in NE Sheffield, the original factory being in Darnall SE Sheffield where railway rolling stock continued to be built. The East Lancs workforce feared for their jobs at this time but, apparently, the quality of build in Sheffield was not as good as in Blackburn and when demand dropped in 1967/8 the Neepsend factory was closed.
David Oldfield
16/07/11 – 07:04
I think I would agree with John W that perhaps history has been a little hard on Pickerings. Obviously some products would come to be known as better than others but given the circumstances and materials of the utilities plus the fact that Pickerings were relative newcomers, I think allowances should be made and of course operator maintenance was a big factor too, which would explain why a quality operator such as Nottingham City Transport ran theirs for 13 years (that is not to denigrate Ledgard in any way whatever!) I wish someone could post a picture of the Tynemouth Guy’s of 1949 which were very fine looking vehicles! What excuse, however, could be made in peacetime? I think the dubious epitaph would have to go to Strachan’s who turned out a great many sub standard vehicles over many years after 1945 which had to be heavily rebuilt or withdrawn early, the worst of which and surely the record holders being the Leyland PD1’s supplied to Western SMT in 1949 which fell apart after only three years!
Chris Barker
06/09/11 – 07:19
J Laurie`s Chieftain buses of Hamilton had 2 TD1s rebodied with Pickering utility bodies. One had a Sheffield registration, the other had come from Western SMT. Both of these buses had lowbridge bodies. Central SMT had a substantial number of TS2 single deckers from 1932, originally bodied by Pickering.
Jim Hepburn
12/09/11 – 08:43
PS. to the last comment. I should add that these TD1s had six bay windows as they probably had originally. They are the only utility bodies I”ve seen with six bay windows.
Jim Hepburn
13/09/11 – 07:45
Did some of the Croft utility bodies in Scotland not have 6 bay layout Jim? I think also that Pontypridd had some BBW utility bodies also to that layout.
John Whitaker
13/09/11 – 07:48
Jim, the Pearson framed bodies were also of six bay utility construction. You can see a picture of a former Crosville TD7 thus bodied on “The People’s League for the Defence of Freedom” gallery.
Roger Cox
17/09/11 – 08:08
You may be right, but as I said these were the only 6 bay utilities I had come across. The TD1s had a shorter wheel base than a TD7 so they seemed to be quite a sturdy body. I could never take to the Duple version. I thought the Massey highbridge body was pretty smart.
East Midland Motor Services 1945 Guy Arab Roe L27/28
At first glance, this pair are identical, but not so. See the differing sizes, and positioning, of the headlamps, and also the deeper edge of the canopy on D37 (far Vehicle). These were delivered in 1945, then rebodied by Roe in 1954. I cannot be certain, but think that the seating capacity was L27/28R, both before and after. See also the paper stickers inside the lower saloon, perhaps telling of timetable changes, or advertising EMMS’ other services, sometimes advertising for drivers/conductors.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Les Dickinson
14/04/13 – 08:23
Incredible, Les. Never seen these in original guise but have seen the rebodies. As usual, the new bodies were beautiful and beautifully made – but interestingly, they were quoted as being 26′ 9″ long. [Was this done simply by building the body longer, or was the chassis extended?] Roe rebuilt literally hundreds of war-time Guys and Daimlers but the sad thing is that few, if any, lasted more than ten years with their new bodies. East Midland, Tracky, County and Woolen spring readily to mind as do the, penny numbers of AECs and Daimlers for Sheffield A fleet.
David Oldfield
14/04/13 – 18:39
and of course, Sheffield Guy 45 David, rebuilt by Roe for the B fleet.
John Darwent
14/04/13 – 18:39
During the war official dispensation was given for the current 26ft. length limit for two-axle double deckers to be increased to 26ft. 9in. in the case of Guy Arabs, in order for the optional long Gardner 6LW engine to be fitted, by allowing it to project forwards in a ‘snout’ rather than have to move the front bulkhead back. As it happened, the majority of Arab II’s continued to be fitted with the shorter 5LW, but the elongated bonnet was used irrespective of which engine was fitted. All East Midland’s Arabs had the 5LW, so there would probably have been a lot of spare space behind those radiators.
John Stringer
14/04/13 – 18:41
They would be Arab I’s, but were they 5LW’s or 6LW’s? And Roe’s part in building austerity bus bodies was something I’d only recently discovered. Few of them ever seem to have made their way south of the Midlands. I certainly never saw one and it’s very much a recent discovery that they built any. Duple, Brush and Massey seemed the dominant builders and their quality was in that order, too, I’d hazard.
Chris Hebbron
15/04/13 – 07:44
East Midland took only twelve utilities during the war. The first, in 1941, was a Bristol K5G which went to North Western in 1946 in exchange for an Arab I/Roe. Next came two Arab I’s with Brush bodies, the remainder were all Arab II’s with Roe bodies. Interestingly, East Midland managed to obtain consecutive last numbers for the registrations throughout the war. Five of the Arab II’s received new Roe lowbridge bodies in 1954. There was a further Arab II which was taken over from Baker Brothers of Warsop in 1953 and also rebodied by Roe. All of them went in 1960 and six years does seem a sadly short life for a vehicle with a new body but of course the Atlantean was no doubt responsible for that. The question of the wartime length dispensation for the Guy Arab is an interesting one, production continued after the war with the Arab II, then the Arab III, all built to the extended length before the maximum dimension was increased to 27ft. So if it was an emergency wartime measure, how come the dispensation was never rescinded after the war, was it quietly forgotten about? It’s surprising someone didn’t ask, if Bristol and Daimler can accommodate the Gardner 6LW, why can’t Guy!
Chris Barker
15/04/13 – 07:44
Chris H: Jasper Pettie’s “Guy Buses in Camera” states the following: “[the first] 500 were known as the Arab MkI. Thereafter the Arab MkII was introduced, and all had the longer bonnet and outswept front mudguards which had featured only on the 6LW-engined MkI examples”. On that basis, if they are definitely MkI chassis, they must have had 6LW engines. If as John Stringer states all the East Midland Arabs had 5LW, then these are MkIIs. Caerphilly had at least one Roe utility ArabII, which survived as training bus until at least 1966. It has curved valances to the canopy and platform rather than the straight ones on the EM view, but this could have been a subsequent modification. BBF records it as rebuilt 1957, but the only obvious difference is that the front top deck windows are rubber-mounted, and there are two sliding windows per side on the lower and three on the upper deck.
Alan Murray-Rust
15/04/13 – 07:45
Chris… If you check Peter Gould’s lists, it was Doncaster’s wartime Roe bodied Regents that seemed to survive longest- Does anyone know why?
Joe
16/04/13 – 07:29
Joe At least three of the Doncaster Regents were to full peacetime standards being delivered in 1941 all of the Roe bus output for that year were to the same pre war spec. It is possible that the 1942 Doncaster Regent was also built to this standard using sored parts. Certainly Roe produced a full utility body by January 1942 albeit on so called unfrozen chassis for Yorkshire Woollen and Yorkshire Traction. As well as building utility bodies on Guy and Daimler chassis they also built a number of trolleybuses building 63 of the 438 buses produced.
Chris Hough
16/04/13 – 10:50
Thanks Chris. I recall that the survivors mostly had proper domes and smelt rather funny. The lists suggest that Doncaster took very few buses during the war and got rid of the Guys fairly quickly: anything with an AEC engine (Bristol, Daimler, AEC) hung on, and were usually Roe bodied. The trolley story is even thinner: a very few utilities, rebodied by Roe after the war (presumably the same bodies that found their way on to the post war Titans.)
Joe
19/10/13 – 18:00
East Midland Motor Services took over Baker Brothers in Warsop who run the Mansfield to Church Warsop service I am not sure if it went to Shirebrooke the garage was at the side of the Hare & Hounds pub, the relief road in Warsop as gone through the garage. They took over Trumans at Shirebrooke and built a larger garage which is now a furniture shop.
Arthur Williams
16/05/16 – 17:53
East Midland Motor Services had 6 depots in North Derbys and North Notts, Chesterfield, Shirebrook, Clowne,Worksop, Retford and a shared garage at Mansfield with Trent, they covered quite a large area going as far as Doncaster, in the 70s they changed colour from red to lime green, the Chesterfield depot is now a car sales, the Shirebrook depot is a furniture w/house Clowne is a car repair place, Worksop still survives. Mansfields is a car repair and petrol station, Retford I am not sure,
Mr Anon
19/05/16 – 06:22
New Street, Chesterfield, is car body repairs rather than car sales, although Stagecoach East Midlands retained offices there for quite a while after the buses had moved out.
Peter Williamson
19/08/16 – 14:12
I have seen photos of East Midland’s Albion Lowlanders in two liveries, red with a cream waistband and red with cream lower deck window surrounds. Can someone enlighten me on when these versions were in use?
Tim
20/08/16 – 05:52
Tim asked about the colour schemes of EM’s Lowlanders. I am not able to recall the timescales but can tell him that they were delivered in the maroon colour with a broad white band above the lower-deck windows.The fronts as I recall were unrelieved maroon. They also went through a period wearing what I think was the NBC leaf-green and white as well as the two red/cream options as described by Tim.
Les Dickinson
20/08/16 – 05:52
After Tim’s question about East Midland’s Lowlanders appeared under this heading I checked my picture collection but sadly do not have any of this subject, however Classic Bus No63 carried a four-page article all about them and in which there is a section headed ‘Transformations’ of which the following is an extract “Over the years, East Midland’s Lowlanders were subject to several transformations of their appearance. They entered service in the company’s dark red with single cream band…” and goes on to say that changes were made to include cream window surrounds and later still their appearance in NBC green was in 1973. The article contains five pictures though none showing the period with the greater use of cream relief. Despite the piece saying they entered service with a bold cream band, my own memory is of a white, not cream band. It could be my old grey cells playing tricks but I frequently travelled on these on East Midland’s route 3.
Les Dickinson
25/08/16 – 15:23
Thanks, Les. Most helpful and interesting. Tim.
Tim
16/02/22 – 07:04
Re. Mr Anon’s post; there was also an EMMS garage at Warsop. My dad was Driver in Charge at Worksop garage for a number of years in the 1960s.
Ideal Service (R Taylor & Son) 1925 Graham-Dodge Reynolds B20F
This is the oldest vehicle to date to appear on the Old Bus Photos website and what a shot it is, it was contributed by Robert Gomersall who is the great grandson of R Taylor who was the original proprietor of Ideal Service. They had three other Graham-Dodge vehicles in their fleet all delivered between 1925 and 1927, one other 20 seater and two 14 seaters. The two 14 seaters did not stay long both being sold on by 1929 this particular bus was sold to Oscroft of Goldthorpe in July 1933 and the other 20 seater was scrapped in 1935. The body was built by Reynolds of Barnsley of whom I know very little, any information would be gratefully received. Below just for reference are enlargements of the front and side destination boards.
In 1920, Dodge Brothers emerged as a leading builder of light trucks. Dodge Brothers cars ranked second place in American sales in 1920. Then both brothers died and the company started to stagnate. To help, Dodge entered into an agreement, whereby they marketed trucks built by Graham Brothers of Evansville, Indiana through their dealerships. [The three Graham brothers would later produce Graham-Paige and Graham Automobiles]. The Graham brothers, Joseph, Robert, and Ray, had began building trucks immediately after World War I, teaming up with Dodge Brothers in 1921 after the deaths of John and Horace Dodge in 1920. The Graham truck became the Dodge truck. In the end, having fallen to fifth place in sales, Dodge fell to Chrysler in 1925. However, these trucks continued to be marketed until 1929. Stratford Blue appear to have taken delivery of a couple in 1930 with unknown B14 bus bodies. My thanks to Neville Mercer and Chris Hebbron for the Ideal Service fleet history and the Dodge-Graham history.
Photograph contributed by Robert Gomersall
It never ceases to amaze me of the variety of chassis and body builders around at that time. Chassis makers imported their products from all over Europe. They would never all have made it, but the 1929 ‘Crash’ prematurely finished a lot of them off. I’d say that Gilford (with their unique Gruss front suspension and own Wycombe bodies) was, perhaps, the most popular of these outsiders, specialising more with coaches rather than buses. They managed to get through the recession, but the big boys dominated the market by then and there were fewer independents, so, despite their making a very good and reliable product, they went into liquidation end-1936.
Chris Hebbron
Funny you should mention Gilford. A great “might have been” manufacturer. By all accounts a superb product hit both by the crash and by that old devil – consolidation. There were faithful customers who were taken over by other firms – or even groups – and were not Gilford customers. Overnight a customer base would disappear. [This happened a lot with post deregulation grouping and regrouping.] Unfortunately, it happened too often with Gilford who were also very much in to advanced experimental models which cost a lot too develop and cost too much for conservative operators to buy. Satisfied customers included Bristol Greyhound, Black and White and Yelloway.
David Oldfield
08/09/14 – 18:00
Reynolds Bros. was for many years the main Ford agent for Barnsley. They also built the “Dearne” range of municipal vehicles based on Ford chassis in the early 1930’s. Their garage and showroom was on Peel Street, and the bodyshop and works was on Fitzwilliam Street. The firm later became Service Garage (Barnsley) Ltd., and later still Polar Ford. The Peel Street premises were demolished in the late 1960’s after a move to a new, larger site on Dodworth Road, and the Fitzwilliam Street site had several other later users including Jaguar restoration specialists 3.4 limited. The site has been cleared recently to make way for the Gateway Plaza development. Polar Ford moved from Dodworth Road to Wakefield Road to make way for new housing, and Polar have very recently become Trust Ford. (September 2014)
Photograph by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
Red & White Services 1932 Gloster-Gardner 6LW Gloucester Railway Carriage & Wagon Co. Ltd C30R
Photographed when new, here’s a rare Gloster-Gardner coach, in Red & White Services livery, the company which collaborated with the Gloucester Railway Carriage & Wagon Works in the production of these vehicles. The robust chassis were fitted with overdrive and could achieve 53mph and 20mpg. The robust chassis were designed to take the Gardner diesel engine from the outset. In 1932/33, Red & White Services, of Chepstow, took delivery of six Gloster-Gardner 6LWs with GRC&W C30R bodies. Numbered 223-228, they were registered in the WO XXXX (Monmouthshire) series. It is said that the unusual seven-bay bodies were not the most robust products and, in 1938, at least 223 was re-bodied by Duple as C32F as can be seen in the photo below. They were withdrawn between 1948 and 1951. Another user was Neath & Cardiff Luxury Coaches, who took two in 1934, one of which was fitted with a replacement second-hand body in 1946. Both were withdrawn in 1953.
Photograph by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
The range of chassis numbers between these two vehicles was 563, but such is the arcane nature of chassis numbering, that I remain unconvinced that that was the number of chassis built. The production period was between 1932 and 1934, after which the company was busy with rail orders and this remained the only bus chassis the company ever built, although they built a complete trolleybus in 1933. Interestingly, Gloucester Corporation did not support their local bus maker, although their Vulcan Duchesses and Thornycroft BC”s did carry GRC&W bodies.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Chris Hebbron
08/04/13 – 09:28
What a very fine and purposeful looking vehicle! The radiator was particularly impressive and seemed to anticipate Leyland’s later style. It certainly compared very well with the SOS offerings of 1932!
Chris Barker
09/04/13 – 06:43
Chris B puts it perfectly! I imagine the gearbox was David Brown and the axles Kirkstall. Are technical details recorded anywhere? However troublesome the original bodies were, the Duple replacements were nothing like as good-looking–at least to judge by the lower picture–with that awkwardly-handled break in waistline and hackneyed swoop. Seeing “20 mpg” I assumed the Gardner was a 5LW, but on reading more carefully I was amazed to see such economy from a 6LW. How sad that the project was so short-lived and that there are no survivors. The nearest parallel I suppose is the Irish GNR-Gardner, of which I believe five survive. Thanks, Chris H, for a very inspiring posting.
Ian Thompson
09/04/13 – 13:50
I’m glad I’m not the only one whose first impression of this vehicle was that it was a Leyland radiator! I’m inclined to agree with Ian that the Duple body doesn’t look quite right. The post war ones – as seen elsewhere on these pages – is clearly a “tidied up” version.
Pete Davies
10/04/13 – 06:38
A couple of further thoughts on this, I think I’m right in saying that the Gardner 5LW and 6LW engines were first trialled in 1931 so in these vehicles must have been some of the very first production examples of the famous Gardner LW range. Secondly, I’m particularly impressed by the style of the front wings. They give an astonishingly modern look to a 1932 vehicle and again they anticipated post war practice by a good fifteen years!
Chris Barker
10/04/13 – 17:19
I, too, admire the very advanced concept and styling of these Gloster Gardner vehicles. I have come across some references to these machines elsewhere in the past, but very little detail about the specification seems to be available. It does show that the Gardner LW oil engine, introduced in 1931, had established its credentials very quickly indeed. Ian is probably correct in his ideas of the proprietary components employed. Back in 1932, five speed transmissions were not that common – as far as I know, only Albion, Bristol and Dennis were offering these in the early 1930s, though I fully expect to be corrected by a better informed OBP stalwart. 20 mpg does strike me as being a bit optimistic for an overall performance figure, though I have no doubt that this was achievable on a long, steady journey.(Aldershot and District could almost get 16 mpg out of a 6LW Loline III on long runs.) The entire vehicle certainly exudes confidence and competence in ample measure, and the fact that they all had lives of around sixteen to nineteen years shows that such qualities were borne out in practice. It is strange that some of the other mainstream manufacturers did not learn from these remarkable vehicles. Several of the contemporary offerings were decidedly archaic by comparison.
Roger Cox
10/04/13 – 17:20
They are certainly original vehicles ahead of their time in may respects. I agree it is sad that the effort resulted in so few vehicles, none of which survived. Can anyone shed light on who Marston Coaches were and when WO 7518 was finally put to rest? I am intrigued enough with these coaches to go down to the local county archives to see if any newspaper items or GRC&W records survive, to get more information. I’ll keep you posted.
Chris Hebbron
28/10/15 – 07:17
The Gloster had a two pronged purpose, firstly Red & White group was private at the time and wanted to take over the City of Gloucester Tramways and replace with buses, eventually this operator fell to Bristol Omnibus port of the Tilling Group, R&W hoped that the Glos connection and a promise of orders would assist the cause. The second reason was that R&W bought Albions and very good they were but as a very cost aware operator they wanted to switch to diesel engines and Gardners at that and Albion who were working on their own units were reluctant to house the Gardner, with the advent of the Gloster all that changed and Albion quickly came to heel and fitted various LW units for this good customer. Then 1934 happened and for the first and only time R&W went into a loss and that clearly caused a great deal of activity. The R&W Glosters had been sent to Liverpool where they worked on the McShayne service to London and I think this was given up, Black and White at Cheltenham was set up as a consortium, own services consolidated into the grouping and other changes made all of which brought the company into the black. In so far as I am aware there were 11 GG chassis, 7 to Red and White, 2 to Neath and Cardiff and 1 for Richmond of Neath all part of Red and White, possibly one not bodied and a Trolleybus using Compton equipment which went to Southend Corporation. Shame it was a great product with tremendous possibilities but one assumes quite expensive at the time.
Christopher
30/10/15 – 06:23
Thx, Christopher, for the additional background information surrounding these interesting and unique vehicles. As for the sole Gloster trolleybus, it became 122 in Southend Corporation”s fleet, with a long life, for a unique vehicle, 1934 to 1950. Here are a couple of views: //www.cooperline.com/gs_bus_details.asp?id=132 //www.sct61.org.uk/ss122b
Chris Hebbron
10/02/16 – 07:05
The other Red & White Gloster-Gardner that was rebodied was WO 7597 Fleet No.226, later S833. Here is a photo of the rebodied vehicle. Can anyone identify the body or when the rebodying took place. Neither appear to have been recorded. (Photo from Thomas Knowles Collection attached with his permission)
Richard Smith
11/02/16 – 06:21
I would feel pretty confident in saying that was an ex-North Western body and would not be the only one Red and White had. 671 (EU 8526) was a Griffin PS1 (originally 104) which carried such a body until a Duple coach body was later fitted. I also have a photograph showing another similar body (only) carrying the fleet number 310.
David Beilby
11/02/16 – 16:37
David, I have EU 8526 (and 3 other Griffin PS1s) having been built with a Leyland B35R body. It was later fitted with a second hand Duple coach body from a withdrawn vehicle. I have a D S Giles offside view of it with original Leyland body which does not look like the body above. However I do have Red & White 310 as a 1936 Albion fitted in 1953 with a 1930s ECW B35R body from a North Western vehicle. Can you post your photo of 310 please.
Valliant Direct Coaches 1931 Gilford 168OT Weymann C30D
This is a photo of a 1931 Gilford 168OT coach with Weymann semi-fabric body along Brighton seafront. It is painted in the livery of Valliant Direct Coaches of Ealing, who owned it for many years. The coach was eventually saved by well-known bus saviour, Prince Marshall, and it languished for many years at the Science Museum Annexe at Wroughton, Nr Swindon, Wilts. Eventually, with the financial generosity of the London Omnibus Traction Society, Seb Marshall was able to restore it thoroughly to the immaculate state we see in the photo above.
Gilford was a short-lived company from 1929 and 1935. It was unusual in that it never made anything, merely being an assembly outfit. It also made Wycombe bodies, with the parts also being made to order and bought in. As might be deduced from the body name, they were based in High Wycombe. They used American petrol engines, especially Lycomings. One unusual feature was the suspension which used Gruss Air Springs, another US import, the front cylinders being easily spotted either side of the radiator. They were more like shock absorbers and enabled vehicles to ‘glide along smoothly and supremely comfortable on four cushions of compressed air’! These were indeed superior vehicles! Gilford were very successful in the early years, but the Wall Street Crash and Depression took its toll and competition from the big boys intensified, with sales dropping relentlessly from 1932, despite new models coming out and a move towards goods vehicles. A late attempt at fitting the unreliable Meadows diesel engine did not help the situation. The final straw was what caused problems for several companies, the formation of the London Passenger Transport Board in 1933, with the consequent takeover and demise of lots of independents in London and much of the adjoining counties. (Christopher Dodd, a London bus body builder, who’d supported the independents almost exclusively, was wiped out at a stroke). The success of Gilford in selling vehicles to independents over the years created the situation where, after the takeovers, London Transport became the largest operator in the UK of Gilford buses and coaches at 220, for some five years, until standardisation started in earnest!
Seb Marshalls blog on restoring GW 713 can be read here.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Chris Hebbron
Didn’t Gilford produce a prototype double decker of extremely low height and very modern appearance for the early 1930s?? I can’t remember if it was first a bus and later a trolleybus, or the other way around – I rather suspect the former. In any event it sadly never caught on apparently.
Chris Youhill
Bus then trolleybus. The remains of Gilford went through two rapid changes of owner before ending up with Sentinel. Another case of interesting antecedents – like the Roadliner to Dennis R via Duple 425 “family tree”.
David Oldfield
If we’re going ancient, let’s have more Gilford – although there weren’t many. What about Reo? [They were also used by the likes of Black and White.] …..and Sentinel who enjoyed a brief and honourable fling post war. If Gilford were the great might have been pre war then Foden and Sentinel were the great might have beens post war. Just a thought.
David Oldfield
I’m afraid my shots don’t go that far back, but if anyone wants to send me some then I will post them.
See the ‘Coming Soon’ panel the next two contributions fall into the ancient category
Peter
I’m sure I saw a photo of Gilford’s double-decker bus/trolleybus once, but can’t pin down where. It was certainly modern-looking for its time. We’ve all heard of the famous AEC Q front-entrance double-decker, but around the same time, Leyland also built a similar vehicle, which had a squarer flat front (might have been lowbridge) and also looked modern for its time. I don’t believe there were any takers and it was broken up in the end, if memory serves me right. Anyone got a photo of it? I’m not sure where the engine was placed, though, but not at the front.
Chris Hebbron
Chris H, are you sure it wasn’t the Leyland TTB front entrance trolleybus?
David Oldfield
You’re right David, I was a little adrift there!
Chris Hebbron
I am sorry to say that Chris Hebbron’s original information is not quite correct in that the photo of GW 713 in Valliant livery was taken some years ago after initial restoration by Prince Marshall & not as a result of recent restoration by his son Seb Marshall. It is currently in a very dismantled state and the subject of a very major restoration by Seb after his acquisition of the coach from Science Museum storage at Wroughton the progress of which can be seen on his blog via link at end of Chris’s article. Hopefully it will not be too long before it is once again restored to the immaculate condition shown in the photo.
Brian
I contacted Seb Marshall to fill in the gaps between its original restoration and its subsequent sad demise into the condition it sank into before he started restoring it. I can do no better than send you his reply which I think is worthwhile printing.
Hi Chris,
The photo was indeed taken in my father’s time, if you look closely he is driving, I believe it is Brighton ’63.
Alas early preservation did not have the funding it does today and the body was very tired back then and was only cosmetically enhanced by Valliants. As we’ve gone into it we’ve discovered it has had a very hard life, with a number of framework repairs evident not surprising really as it went to war!
We were planning to have it ready for Brighton next year, but work has dictated otherwise so sometime in the not too distant future is all I can say at the moment.
All the best, Seb
Chris Hebbron
You are right Chris, Gilford did build a low-height double-decker in 1931, and it was displayed at that year’s Commercial Motor Show. It was a very advanced design incorporating front wheel drive, thus allowing a very low floorline, as the usual bulk of the rear axle and differential casing were dispensed with. After delving into various books, all manner of things came to light. The bus was known as the ‘D-type’ (presumably for double-decker), and was of chassisless construction with an overall height of 12ft. 11ins, which was pretty impressive for a ‘decker with central gangways on both decks. The engine was also unusual in being a German-built Junkers horizontally-opposed 6-cylinder two-stroke diesel unit. A four-speed constant mesh gearbox was mounted ahead of the engine, and the drive then went to the front wheels. As usual, Gilford had fitted Gruss air springs to the vehicle, and the front suspension was independent to boot! The Wycombe 56-seat rear-entrance bodywork was of steel-framed construction, and was of a modern-looking full-fronted design. A Tilling-style three-piece front window arrangement was used on the upper deck, with the outer glasses curving round to meet the front side pillars. Unfortunately, no orders were forthcoming, and as David rightly says, it was then converted to a trolleybus, and apparently saw service as such with Wolverhampton and Southend-on-Sea. A picture of the bus in its original form was shown in Buses Illustrated No.8, but I’m sure I’ve seen a picture of it elsewhere, and will keep looking! Gilford chassis designations were generally straightforward. The numbers denoted the wheelbase (in feet and inches) and the letters described the driving position. So an SD was Standard Drive (meaning bonneted, or normal control), and an OT was Over Type (meaning driver alongside engine, or forward control). As such, the engaging 168OT in the photo would be of 16ft.8ins wheelbase, Over Type layout.
Brendan Smith
Its nice to see my grandfathers coach on the sea front I remember him talking to me about the coaches he had.
Stephen Valli
Stephen – I’m glad that the photo gave you pleasure. You will no doubt know that your grandfather is greatly respected among the bus enthusiast fraternity for his successful efforts at bus preservation when it was in its infancy.
Brendan, Thx for researching all that useful information on the ‘D’-type, most of which I was unaware of. As ever, it was a mixture of their own construction and buying-in parts and, as ever, the conservative bus industry of the time stayed well away from purchasing it, despite the general good name and record of Gilford. A photo of it would be wonderful, if you can track one down. Sadly, although I can boast about three of the earliest Buses Illustrated somewhere, No. 8 wasn’t one of them, more’s the pity!
Chris Hebbron
The patent number for the D-type is (GB)353,902 and was applied for by the Gilford Motor Company Ltd and Edward Bert Horne on April 29th 1930 and accepted on July 29th 1931. The drawing shows a lower deck plan, with the engine protruding significantly into the lower saloon with two pairs of rearward facing seats to each side of it, and a vertical section through the bus showing the front wheel drive and Gruss springs. You can view the drawing here.
Malcolm Thwaite
Thank you for posting such an interesting technical drawing Malcolm. I had read somewhere that the engine on the D-type had intruded into the lower saloon, but had not envisaged it doing so by quite as much as shown! The seating arrangement around it was fascinating – and what seats for the enthusiast they would have been, right next to that two-stroke engine….
Brendan Smith
24/01/12 – 05:52
Nice to see a colour picture of a Gilford. My grandfather drove for them when they were in High Wycombe and I have a photo of him sat on a chassis outside the factory
Andrew Stevens
05/04/14 – 07:07
I remember reading an extensive history of Gilford in Buses Illustrated once complete with many photographs. One reason for their demise mentioned was a large part of their market was to independents, and I understand that the problem was many of them were unable to pay the instalments on the purchase. The same thing brought down Guy in South Africa, where they sold direct to small operators who didn’t pay up or disappeared into the night.
John
05/04/14 – 09:37
Don’t I remember a section here on OBP about a year ago devoted to the Gilford decker, photos, drawings and all? I’ve searched but can no longer find it.
Here is another picture of GW 713 taken at Madeira Drive at the end of an HCVC London – Brighton Run in the early 1960s. By the 1970s this coach had been repainted into the livery of Evan Evans Tours.
White Bus Service (Wilson and Hughes Ltd. Bridlington) 1932 Gilford 1680T Wycombe C32F
Here is one of my favourite pictures which I took as a teenager with my old roll film box camera. Obviously the standard is very poor, but it brings back lovely memories, for me, of happy times as a devotee of the several small operators in Bridlington in those days. The vehicle was new in 1932 to Hillman’s Saloon Coaches Limited of London, and in April 1934 passed to London Passenger Transport Board being immediately transferred to Eastern National (fleet number 3524). It came to Bridlington in May 1939, being withdrawn by White Bus in January 1950. Still in khaki livery, no doubt as a result of wartime camouflage for the sensitive coastal area of Bridlington, it is seen in the railway station yard where it languished inexplicably until it was taken away and scrapped in 1953. Of particular note is the endearing abbreviation of “Flamborough” to Flamboro. Where oh where have the last sixty years gone ?? The varied and wonderful fleets of the White Bus Service and of R. Williamson and Sons, both of whom managed to provide local bus services in the resort against the might of the equally commendable East Yorkshire Motor Services, were a joy to have experienced.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Chris Youhill
Oh Chris, what a wonderful evocative photo, where has the Brid of the 50’s gone as well? I well remember the station yard, when it was a station full of West Riding steam loco’s! It is good to see photos of some of the smaller operators in the area; is there any more where this came from. The black & white is wonderfully atmospheric, not to say the subject also. As you may be aware the EYMS website has photos of all of the White Bus fleet which was purchases by EYMS
Keith Easton
What a wonderfully evocative picture which captures the sadness of a loyal servant now discarded. The Gruss Air Springs really show up on this low-profile shot. I think I only ever saw one Gilford, a Hera (their last model?), as a fairground vehicle on Wimbledon Common in pre-Womble days, around 1950. It really did look quite smart and I took a photo (with my box Brownie), sadly long lost. But your shot has made up for it, Chris! The one outstanding ‘true’ coach that LT inherited was from Hillman, an AEC Renown with Harrington body. Withdrawn in 1939, unusually it was retained at Tilling’s former depot at Bull’s Yard, Peckham, where many unusual vehicles were stored for the ‘duration’. The yard was bombed in the Blitz and it was a casualty, along with many other gems.
Chris Hebbron
Being a Bradford lad, we had regular holidays in Brid, and later owned an old Bradford tram at Skipsea as a bungalow. I vividly remember WBS and Williamsons, as well as Boddys, and can well remember WBS Bedford OWBs, and can still see the rear of an early 1930s single decker with oval window, which could well have been this Gilford. I also seem to remember a 6 wheel Guy double decker. of Williamsons ( ex Leicester?) and both Williamson and Boddys had ex YWD centre entrance TD2s, the latter on the Filey-Flamborough service. The later Halifax Regents, and London Daimlers of WBS come vividly to mind! Super days!! I was about 5 or 6 when these memories occurred, and I have similar nostalgia from Morecambe, where we also had holidays in the late war and early post war years.
John Whitaker
Wonderful memories of Bridlington John and thanks indeed for them. Sadly though the Williamson’s Guy six wheeler is only a happy dream – don’t we all have them eh ?? – but is actually very close to reality. The Firm operated two ex Doncaster giants – one was a Leyland Titanic and the other an AEC Renown. The financial incredibility of such “over equipment” (petrol engined especially) on two flat town services of a little over a mile each remains for ever completely fascinating.
Chris Youhill
Thanks Chris for following up on WBS, and clarifying my distorted 6 wheel memory! Skipsea was a delight re. old buses… there were 2 more Doncaster 6 wheelers on the cliff top near us from about 1949.. I remember climbing into the cabs before they were “done up”! All sorts of other treasures too. Do we have a fleet list for WBS by any chance? It will always remain one of my all time favourite fleets on the trip up to the “Lighthouse”. Great to share these memories.
John Whitaker
Chris Youhill mentions the Leyland Titanic (clever twist on Titan!) and AEC Renown in one sentence, which made me think of all the Renown competitors which had to bow down to AEC’s successful six-wheeler. Double-deck makes/models like the Guy FCX, LGOC’s CC and LS models, Crossley’s sole Condor and the wonderfully-named Sunbeam Sikh! There were also the single-deck Leyland TS6 and TS7 T’s and D’s. Although their stars had faded by the late 1930’s, they set the scene for the ascendancy of six-wheeler trolleybuses until about 1950.
Chris Hebbron
I do have a “sketchy” but relatively complete fleet summary for Williamson’s, and also one for White Bus Service, and will try to condense them some time soon when I have the chance.
Chris Youhill
Hi Chris (Y), would you please be so kind as to let me have a copy when available. Thanks a lot
Keith Easton
With reference to WBS fleet I believe the first vehicle for passenger work by user Alf Wilson was actually the boat shell of a fishing Coble put on wheels and pulled by horses. I’ve heard that Yorkshiremen are ‘tight’ in the purse area the phrase Cobbled-together takes on a new meaning up ‘ere in’t North. Reuben Williamson came a close second to this when in 1920 he fitted an ex-double deck Horse-bus body onto a Republic 2ton chassis. At Easter 1912 their Horsebus plied the Bridlington Promenade and took £3 0s 6d in one day, this equals 726 one penny fares, hence the term coining it in?
Ian Gibbs
01/04/11 – 07:32
Three brief comments about the White Bus Service Gilford EV 7580 shown at the top of this site: Firstly, Chris, the colour in which you saw it in the Station yard (which I recollect as nearer to dark grey than khaki) was definitely not a hangover from war camouflage, as my clear memory (which goes back to 1943) is of all the White Buses being in their normal livery of creamy white and red; the only buses I saw in wartime camouflage were those of United (with a few exceptions). Secondly, WBS also had a second Gilford, WG 332 (ex-W.Alexander); Thirdly, although both were withdrawn from service in 1950 (November and January respectively) they were then stored in the garage in the Old Town for some years, both appearing in the Station yard in about 1953, for what I recall as a short time only, they both seemed to be full of junk I remember.
Patrick Hooper
01/04/11 – 21:00
Thanks indeed Patrick for this extra information. You are no doubt right about the strange colour of EV 7580 whilst in the station yard – I wonder what on earth was the purpose behind this odd transformation. I also remember WG 332 very well from my very junior days, and in the same period I was not even aware of the locations of any premises for WBS – which is perhaps as well or poor old Dad would have been dragged even longer distances, and he was already commendably patient and tolerant about my avid interest in the buses in the Town Centre and in the West Riding here where we lived.
Chris Youhill
14/05/11 – 18:38
I just have to tell all you guys of my experience with the White Bus Company. In the early 50’s whilst at Huddersfield Technical College, the summer breaks was a time for earning some cash! My parents lived in Flamborough village so I had to find a local job. My stepfather, Gilbert Readhead, was senior driver for the WBSC and he got me the job of bus conductor from June to September. As a result my knowledge of the Company is quite considerable. Owned jointly by Jack Wilson and Billy Hughes they ran a one bus service during the winter between Flamborough and Brid and had a minimum of 5 buses in the Summer. I could go on for a long time so I would welcome questions from anyone interested in the activities of the White Bus Company, Queen St., Bridlington.
Tim Hepworth
24/05/11 – 07:49
A long-time friend of mine (Charlie Bullock, now aged 96) recently told of the time he took his PSV test in Scarborough during the 1930’s. All appeared to be going well as he took his steed – a Gilford – around the streets of the town. However, when the time came to carry out the hill start, Charlie said he was a little perplexed at one point, to say the least. His examiner asked him to pull up on Chain Hill, which he dutifully did. The examiner then alighted and briefly disappeared from view. On re-appearing he asked Charlie to set off when he was ready, but then remained outside the vehicle. Charlie set off, but had only driven a few yards before the examiner asked him to stop. He then disappeared again and returned holding a matchbox. Apparently he had placed this behind one of the Gilford’s front wheels in order to check that the vehicle had not rolled back at all during the hill start. Charlie was informed that as the matchbox was still in pristine condition, he could proceed with the rest of his test! Needless to say, Charlie passed that day with the Gilford, and went on to spend what he says were many happy years driving for United Automobile Services at their Scarborough depot.
Brendan Smith
11/01/12 – 13:31
Hi Tim H, my dad remembers your stepfather, Gilbert Redhead, but sadly not you he is ninety so maybe forgiven, White Bus Service finished in 1955, sold to East Yorkshire Motors, my grandad never talked about his life, so anything I read or hear from, means I can put together a life that until now, was a mystery. Thanks
John Hughes
18/02/12 – 16:31
Hi Tim H I have not looked at the White Bus site for a while your offer for questions is generous can I mail one or two via either email to Peter or you by letter when I have time
Ian Gibbs
19/02/12 – 16:36
Hi Ian. I too, would be interested in anything “White Bus”. In fact, if we all got together, perhaps we could assemble an accurate fleet list for White Bus, and Williamson. As well as the HS Lion Cub, there was a WBS post war “Regal” with a Lincolnshire mark, which is not in the PSV Circle list. Chris Y., well known in these columns, is pretty well versed in all things “Brid Independent” too, dare I say!
John Whitaker
20/02/12 – 10:39
I can answer John’s query about the Lincolnshire registered AEC Regal. It was ABE 957 and was ex Enterprise and Silver Dawn of Scunthorpe, and before joining WBS was with an operator from far away called, I believe, “Reliance.” The picture was taken by the late Robert F. Mack.
Chris Youhill
21/02/12 – 07:11
Hi John W; off the top of my head the above WBS Regal is listed in PB17 in the list of vehcles acquired and taken over by EYMS. (But not used by them.) Count me in for any “BridBus” information, and I look forward to Ian’s book on the subject!
Keith Easton
21/02/12 – 16:40
Great stuff Keith! I also look forward to Ian`s book. Wonder why Enterprise and Silver Dawn sold this Regal so soon. Is ABE a pre-war mark..? I had assumed this was a Mk2 (post war) Regal, but the more I find out, the less I know!
John Whitaker
22/02/12 – 07:11
According to the Old Classic Car website, ABE was first used for Lincolnshire (Lindsey) from August 1937 to April 1939. (BBE registrations started in May 1939).
Stephen Ford
22/02/12 – 07:14
John W…ABE 957 was issued in Lindsay, Lincolnshire during late February/early March 1938. Does that help or hinder?!!
Richard Leaman
22/02/12 – 07:16
ABE was indeed a pre-war mark, issued in 1938. There was an article about Enterprise and Silver Dawn in Buses, Aug. 1965 which lists the fleet at takeover by Lincolnshire Road Car in 1950. Listed are ABE 951-956 and ABE 958/60/61. Missing are ABE 957 and ABE 959 with gaps in the fleet numbers. So, as John W asks, why would they have sold these two when they still had Regals dating from 1931/32 in the fleet in 1950! I wonder if Chris Y knows which “Reliance” company was involved in the story of ABE 957? The very nice looking bodywork was by Plaxton.
Chris Barker
22/02/12 – 07:18
Whilst still in “Bridlington Independent” mode, is there a kind gentleman out there who can fill in the previous owner and dates new/acquired detail for the following White Bus vehicles extant at the 1955 EYMS takeover? HS 8306, CEL 223, ASD 149, EWW 149, and when ABE 957 was new and acquired. I don`t suppose anyone has a photo of a London Daimler in WBS service ?
John Whitaker
22/02/12 – 15:22
I am happy to be able to provide all the answers which John W seeks today. HS 8306 New 1935 – to WBS October 1951 from Graham of Paisley CEL 223 New 1937 – to WBS June 1953 from Pulleyn, Dunninglen (spelling questionable) ASD 149 New 1943 – to WBS May 1947 from Lennox, Whiting Bay EWW 149 New 1944 – to WBS May 1952 from Robinson, Kippax ABE 957 New 1938 – to WBS May 1949 from Enterprise (Mark 1 Regal of course)
Pictures also attached (purchased long ago and sources unknown) of both of the Ex LT Daimlers in service – one in Queen Street, and the coloured one at Flamborough.
In answer to Chris B’s query about ABE 957, after disposal by EYMS it went to Reliance of Brightwalton, Berkshire.
Chris Youhill
22/02/12 – 17:55
Just to say how great it was to get answers so quickly for the wonderful White Bus Service, and also Williamsons, questions I have pondered for some time now. It all comes back as though I was 10 years old again, in vivid clarity, so thanks to all, and especially Chris. It is a great pleasure to discover that so many other enthusiasts share a love both for these fleets, and the era in general, and I trust we can revel in the enjoyment of this site for many years to come!
John Whitaker
25/02/12 – 07:35
Hello all, Chris nice photos, in return I have found this WBS Gilford 1660T from D Okill when he was studying Gilfords I sent Dick extracts from tax records for his project in return he sent this photo I take the chance of sending it to OBP and hope no one will object, details New 2/29 Highways London No 8 London Lorries C30 to Clarke Bros Ripon 5/32 to WBS 7/33- any other owner? Clarke Bros were Stage Carriage & Excursions they had a cracking fleet of mainly S/H coaches read like abc of makes, started 1914 with a Ryknield? Chara ferrying troops around locally I think then set up business has psv circle done a fleet? I calculated 37 but odd ones may be lorries from the Spud carrying work DWT 725 Leyland had Barnaby Coach Body
Ian Gibbs
25/02/12 – 14:26
Coaches of this era, to me, always had a sleek look even thought it wasn’t actually sleek, if you know what I mean! It must be the go-faster curtains! I love the stylish curved rear. Nice post,
Chris Hebbron
26/02/12 – 07:22
Re WBS Gilford picture posted above the Reg No was UL 5805 sorry I missed it out.
Ian Gibbs
07/04/12 – 07:14
According to PSVC book UL 5805 was with WBS until March 1938 after which there is no known history.
Andrew Stevens
07/11/12 – 06:46
Hi, chaps : rejoining the correspondence about White Bus Service buses etc., after a long absence! I was born (1938) and bred in Bridlington, so White Buses were very much part of the fabric of my childhood. Just 1 small amendment to make : CEL223 bore the name and address “Victor Pulleyn, York” when it arrived at WBS. (“Dunninglen” may be a misreading for “Dunnington”, which is a small village a few miles to the east of York, but it didn’t appear on the actual vehicle.) I’m not aware that CEL223 was ever used in normal service; certainly it was never fitted with a destination blind, the destination indicator box glass being painted over with “Private” on it. I’d be delighted to reminisce with anyone about WBS, Williamsons or any of the other buses in the East Yorkshire area; better to use e-mail, as I rarely have time to look at websites!
Patrick Hooper
21/01/13 – 05:55
One more comment, about the ex-Enterprise AEC Regal ABE 957 – it was indeed not operated by EYMS but sold by them to Reliance of Newbury, Berks. Does anyone have a photograph of White Bus Commer AAD 140?
Patrick Hooper
21/01/13 – 05:58
Just to add that AAD 140 was a Gloucestershire registration. The area abounded with folk who GAD about, were MAD, SAD, BAD, DAD and were bounders, sorry CAD’s, amongst others!
Chris Hebbron
21/01/13 – 15:59
*AD says Black & White Motorways – who were keen Gilford operators for a short while…..
David Oldfield
23/01/13 – 07:06
That would have just been a FAD… (Sorry David!)
Brendan Smith
23/01/13 – 07:07
CEL 223 was a Leyland Cub KPZ2, new in June 1936 with a Beadle C20F body to Hants and Dorset – originally in their version of the Royal Blue livery, for use on tours and excursions. In 1937, to avoid confusion with the coaches of the Royal Blue express services – by then owned by Southern/Western – H&D repainted their coaches into cream and green. It was withdrawn by H&D in August 1951. My notes say it went then to the dealers, North, in Leeds, and to G Bamborough, Chester-le-Street in the November. Subsequently, it was noted with an owner in Wakefield in February 1954 – possibly as a mobile caravan.
Peter Delaney
23/01/13 – 09:13
Nice one, Brendan.
David Oldfield
21/07/15 – 08:41
CEL 223 Passed to White Bus Service from Victor Pulleyn, Station Garage, Dunnington, he had operated it as a psv from 12/51 to 3/53. It came into service with White Bus Service in 6/53 and was still current when East Yorkshire took over, it was not used by East Yorkshire and sold to PVD at Marton (the dealer) in March 1956 and had passed to Stepney Contractors at Beveerly by June 1957 presumably as a site hut.
Mike Pearson
18/09/15 – 05:55
I have just seen this post. I can remember ABE 957 with Reliance of Newbury. Somewhere I have a photo at Brightwalton garage. If I can dig it out I will be in touch. It was a regular performer on the Newbury/Brightwalton service.
Paul S White
18/09/15 – 10:11
To see such a picture of ABE 957 would be realy interesting Paul if you can find it. In the picture above of ABE 957 in Queen Street a fascinating glimpse of times gone by can just be made out in the far distance – I’ve only just noticed it myself. The building to the right of the OWB with the black signage is at the end of Prince Street, and is in the unmistakeable erstwhile format of “Montague Burton, the tailor of taste.” In recent years it was a McDonalds eaterie but that has now closed.
Chris Youhill
20/10/15 – 06:49
I’ll update Dad {Ian} with this info, I am sure he will be interested. Despite his stroke he is still very much buzzing with bus chat. I spent three hours with him yesterday talking about Everinghams. Possibility of a magazine article being written up about them.
Matt Gibbs
13/03/16 – 07:50
My family owned Reliance of Newbury and were delighted yesterday to have have a talk from my old schooldays friend David Wilder. He told us much that none of us knew. The hunt is now on for photos of any vehicles at the old Brightwalton depot where several if my generation spent much of our childhood in the 1950s. I have seem Paul S White’s previous post (18/09/15 – 05:55 above) mentioning Brightwalton and wonder if he or anyone else can help?
Barrie Hedges
12/05/16 – 17:20
Commer AAD 140 when owned by Pulham & Sons of Naunton, Gloucestershire.
Ian Pope
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
11/06/20 – 07:27
One of four Gilford coaches operated by the Great Western Railway on the Oxford to Cheltenham service pictured at High Street, Witney, Oxfordshire, circa 1930. Although the GWR railway did have a service to Witney and beyond to Fairford, it never completed the route through to Swindon or Cheltenham and in place of this they operated a joint passenger road service with Black & White. I painted this in 2002. The original is now owned by Mr. Dave Jones of Suffolk.
Western Scottish Motor Traction Co. Limited 1933 Gilford Zeus Strachans H24/24R
The above photograph (from the Dave Jones Collection) is of a Gilford Zeus outside the Bellfield Works in High Wycombe. This was Gilford’s third attempt to get into double decker vehicle market after the 168DOT and the failed front wheel drive double decker which was later converted into a trolleybus. Two were built, the first appearing at the Glasgow Show of 1932 before being registered in 1933 for use as a Gilford demonstrator before passing to Western S.M.T (Fleet number 723), and the second being sold direct to Western S.M.T (Fleet number 722). The two vehicles were originally fitted with different engines, the demonstrator a Vulcan Juno and the later one a Tangye VM6, but both are believed to have had Leyland oil engines fitted before entering service.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Andrew Stevens
22/04/12 – 16:42
A very smart modern-looking bus for its time, apart from the rather scrunched-up windscreen. The radiator suits the body style very well. I always had a soft spot for Gilford and was sorry it failed, partly due to the takeover of independents by newly-formed London Transport. Western SMT were staunch supporters of the marque at this time, taking quite a few coaches for their long-distance services. I wonder how long they lasted and their histories until scrapping. I was never good company at funfairs: a stomach not suited to revolving at high speed, restricted me to dodgems, big dippers, but certainly not waltzers! Thus, I tended to walk around the showmens’ vehicles and enjoy the fare on display there. I always remember seeing a Gilford Hera on one occasion, the only Gilford I ever saw.
Chris Hebbron
23/04/12 – 05:35
Don’t know when, but 723 transferred to Sandersons of Glasgow and I don’t know any history after that. 722 was withdrawn from service in 1944 and also transferred to Sandersons with no subsequent history.
Andrew Stevens
23/04/12 – 05:36
I have never come across a Gilford myself but every mention of them is always in a positive light – always said to be superb vehicles. As Chris says, circumstances – the customer base disappearing – overtook the firm with disastrous effects. I lived in High Wycombe for fifteen years and know Bellfield well – never realised that Gilford were based there. I don’t think they left a trace when they moved back to London.
David Oldfield
23/04/12 – 05:51
The very interesting subject of Gilfords reminds me that a group are restoring a single decker that started in life with Fred Oade of Heckmondwike. The company is still in business although nowadays they are undertakers the coaching side of the business was sold to Yorkshire Woollen in 1960. The vehicle is WX 3567 and was new in 1930. Oades sold it in 1934 and according to The PSV Circle it passed through several different owners and allegedly was sold for scrap in 1938 although obviously this never happened as I believe it was found in a barn.
Philip Carlton
24/04/12 – 06:53
I actually saw ‘WX’ last week and it’s coming along. The survivor list may take some by surprise, with two vehicles, a DF6 and an AS6 I believe road-worthy, along with an AS6, a 166SD, two 168SD’s (one converted to OT) and a 168OT currently under restoration. There is also a Hera chassis at the SVBM. Would be nice to get them all roadworthy and together in the future – here’s hoping. Unfortunately Bellfield works has now been demolished so there certainly is no trace left of the company, and few people in Wycombe seem to know of their existence, something I hope to put right somehow.
Andrew Stevens
07/03/14 – 16:14
My father was a bus driver with Western SMT from 1945 till his retirement in 1976. His normal route was Irvine Harbour via Montgreenan to Kilwining Railway Station, wait 10 minutes and drive back. Only one single decker bus operated on this route. Due to the demand for the service on a Sunday a double decker was used. One Sunday my father forgot about the low bridge at Irvine harbour and took the complete top of the decker. For this he was suspended for a week without pay. Having no Driver the following Sunday, the Chief Inspector drove the route and put the decker under the same bridge. Father wages were duly restored. After WW2 there was a shortage of reliable buses. Western decided to buy bare chassis from Leyland and have them bodied at Alexanders Falkirk. All that Leyland supplied was a bare chassis and a temporary seat. drivers had to wrap up well and on some occasion had to be lifted from the seat as their clothes were frozen solid. After the war Western started their Glasgow to London night Service, on one Glasgow Fair 110 coaches left Glasgow in convoy for London, the journey time was 15 hours with refreshment stops there were no toilets on these buses. During the 1960’s a Day service was introduced. all the coaches were two driver operated as was the night service. Only the senior drivers were allowed on the day service and they got all the new and best coaches. The engines on these coaches had no engine governor and have been clocked at over 90 mph. The time was now down to ten hours, there were no Motorways at this time. The drivers would swap driving positions without stopping or reducing speed. The goal was to get into London Waterloo early, and give themselves more free time. In June 1967 my Father took delivery of the first Volvo coach with one piece wrap round windscreen. The coach was delivered factory fitted straight to the bus stance at Glasgow, it had not been checked over by Western mechanics. I was on this coach on its return journey from London To Glasgow. We were traveling on a dual carriageway when we were overtaken by a lorry with a flapping tarpaulin the Tarpaulin caught the driver mirror swung it through the windscreen. due to the increase in internal pressure the back window popped out. Midland Red had an agreement with Western in the event of an accident or breakdown they would supply a replacement coach in this case the replacement would mean a six hour delay. The drivers on consulting the passengers decided to press on, the weather was dry and sunny temperature approx, 24 degree’s. Two miles after turning at Scots corner a rear tyre punctured caused by going over windscreen glass. The coach had a spare wheel and nut runner but no jack. The lorry following us was driven by an ex-colleague of my fathers who just happened to have a heavy duty jack, 15 min’s. later we were back on the road. the coach arrived in Glasgow 5 min’s behind schedule. The tips for each of the two drivers were more than a weeks wages each. We stayed in Fenwick at that time. during WW2 there was a bus service. Ayr via Kilmarnock and Fenwick to Glasgow with a bus frequency of one every 90 seconds and the buses were packed. The regulations during the war were 28 standing downstairs and 12 standing up stairs. One memorable bus registration number TJ 9090 this was a second hand six wheeled Leyland with seating for 109, standing room bottom deck 35, top deck 20. On a Saturday afternoons fully loaded you could pass her on your bicycle going up Beansburn Brae
Gilbert Wilson
12/09/14 – 06:13
There is the chassis of an ex-Alexander Gilford Hera on show at the Scottish Vintage Bus Museum. It has a Leyland petrol engine taken out of a Titan converted to diesel.
Stephen Allcroft
15/09/15 – 06:46
Having just noticed the comment about this bus being sold to Sandersons of Glasgow in 1944, the Sanderson family traded at the time as Millburn Motors and were dealers and breakers. At later dates they owned controlling stakes in Lowland Motorways and Northern Roadways, the dealership later became S & N Motors.
