This shot is from the Ray Soper “Gallery” contribution A Trolleybus tour in Bournemouth click on the title if you would like to view his Gallery and comments to it. The shot is shown here for indexing purposes but please feel free to make any comment regarding this vehicle either here or on the gallery.
23/02/12 – 09:47
Bournemouth 183 A Bedford OWB with a Duple body was exported to the USA after service in London. It has just been reported in the PSV sheets as changing owners in late 2006 in San Francisco.
John Ashmore
21/07/13 – 07:35
Did some of the late Bedford WTB’s have the OB bonnet style or was this an attempt to modernise the front?
Chris Hebbron
21/07/13 – 08:03
Interesting point, Chris. The OB replaced the WTB in 1939(?) and almost immediately became the war-time OWB, The OB returned in peacetime – around 1946. So is this a WTB or is it simply a pre-war OB?
David Oldfield
21/07/13 – 11:15
This style of bonnet and radiator grille was introduced in 1938 on the WTB and also on all the rest of the W-series range. These were replaced by the K, M and O-series the following year. The WT-series had no external radiator filler cap, and high mounted headlamps, whereas the O-series had an external filler cap and lower set headlamps. This is generally a good way of telling them apart, but in later life it was not at all uncommon for operators to mix and match parts – so it is not 100% reliable.
John Stringer
22/07/13 – 11:26
Thx, John S, for the answer.
Chris Hebbron
10/11/16 – 07:30
This bus was preserved by the Poole and District Model Railway Society. I have a couple of pictures of FEL 216 after restoration in 1967.
Bruce
10/11/16 – 10:37
FEL 216 went from Poole & District Model Railway Society to Tim Salter of Wareham in 10/98 along with sister FEL 218. FEL 218 was later (circa 98) broken up for spares, with the intention to restore 216. From what I can gather very little progress has been made on FEL 216 & it is still owned by Tim Slater. Whilst on the subject of these Bournemouth WTB’s EEL 46 a 1938 Burlingham WTB is now just a rolling chassis after acquisition by Cyril Kenzie in 5/08, the body deemed to bad to restore. The chassis is still with Kenzie.
John Wakefield
10/11/16 – 13:50
Here are a couple of shots after FEL 216 had been preserved by the Poole and District Model Railway Society.
Bruce
25/08/22 – 05:47
Here is a picture of No.15, FEL 218, taken on an HCVC Brighton Rally in the very early 1970s. As John Whittaker comments, this bus was broken up for spares for preserving FEL 216.
Roger Cox
31/08/22 – 07:04
Just an aside, but I read that Yellow Bus, successor the Bournemouth Corporation, went bust on August 4th.
Chris Hebbron
01/09/22 – 07:03
….. and More bus stepped in and seamlessly provided replacement services. They didn’t “take over” Yellowbus in any way, just stepped up.
This Bedford WLB was bought new in May 1935 by T. E. Garner of Ealing London W5. It was taken by the Ministry of Supply during WW2 and seemingly given a military registration. When the MoS disposed of it in February 1943 it was re-registered JTA 608 and sold to E. Saunders of Winkleigh, Devon. The subsequent history is a little obscure, but the vehicle came into the ownership of preservationists Messrs Burt and Mitchell by 1964 before passing to E. J. Baker of Bordon, Hants, in April 1966. Baker apparently sold it on to Taylor of Tintinhull, Somerset, in October 1966, who restored the original registration by May 1967. However, the picture above, taken on an HCVC Brighton Rally, shows the vehicle still in Baker’s livery with its CMG 30 registration. Was the vehicle sold by Baker after re-registration, or did Taylor not repaint it? It is thought that this coach then languished in a barn for about 25 years before Colin Rowland of Rambler Coaches, St Leonards, East Sussex purchased it in November 2008 and restored/repainted it in green livery. I am indebted to the expert contributions of John Wakefield on the internet for much of these history details, and I will be pleased if John wishes to rectify any errors in my text.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
16/11/20 – 06:06
I photographed this gem in the Weymouth rally on 1 July 1979, when it carried both the CMG mark and red/cream livery.
Pete Davies
19/11/20 – 06:41
A list of Bedford production during the 1930s may be found here:- www.psvcircle.org.uk
Roger Cox
25/11/20 – 07:56
Is the CMG a recognized. War dept/MoS or w.h.y registration? Looks civvy to me.
Victor Brumby
26/11/20 – 06:23
Now in preservation with Colin Rowland (ex Rambler Coaches) Hastings.
John Wakefield
28/11/20 – 07:02
CMG 30 was its original civil registration. It would have have been allocated a military registration. When disposed of by the military presumably its original documentation was missing so it was given a new registration by its new owner. At some stage a subsequent owner must have traced its original identity and had the registration changed back to the one originally carried.
‘Mini-bus opens new field for city firm’ – says the Sheffield Telegraph newspaper in January 1966. Sheffield Transport had agreed to buy a prototype of a new design of a small bus developed by Cravens Ltd, a Company which had built a number of single and double deck bodies for Sheffield before and after the second world war. This new design would enable the Company to produce a range of different capacity buses with up to 33 seats. So far as I am aware, it remained unique. It was certainly the only Bedford bus to be operated by Sheffield. The bus was originally used by the Transport Committee and for private hire but it later it did migrate on to normal service. I remember it especially on the circuitous route 44 to Bakewell via Ladybower and Bamford which wasn’t noted for a lot of patronage. I’m sure it must have been adapted later for one man operation as I remember the 44 being an early OMO conversion. However here is the bus outside East Bank Garage on 19 June 1966 (it must have been nearly new) on the occasion of a tour of Sheffield by the Leeds and District Transport News. The bus was renumbered 1 in April 1967 and was sold to the local King Edward VII Grammar School in 1973 – presumably at the expiry of its first seven year certificate of fitness.
An interesting might have been.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild
04/07/12 – 05:20
Looks ungainly now and I fear it did then as well. Looks as if it ought to have a wheelchair lift in the back (needs it with that step!). The test here is whether it felt like a van with seats or a coachbuilt….coach. Small buses/coaches are fine, if that is what they are, and don’t shake themselves (and their passengers) to bits.
Joe
04/07/12 – 05:21
Ian, your final paragraph stuns me. I left KES in the summer of 1971 and kept in touch, through two members of staff in particular, who were mentors and very important to me with my professional development. …..and yet I wasn’t aware of this. I am a professional musician and retired music teacher – so one was the Head of Music. The other was an incredible guy who was also an MOT approved driving instructor, and advanced motorist, drove part-time for the real SUT and was a qualified fitter. Alan Finch got me through both the initial MOT and then the advanced driving tests first time and instilled in me a love of, and pride in, driving well and safely. Presumably he was instrumental in this purchase – but it seems to have passed me by. Sadly Alan died a couple of years ago. Bearing in mind it was built at the same time that Cravens opened their Neepsend Coachworks and supplied a number of Atlanteans (PDR1/2) to Sheffield, it always puzzled me that No 11 was built by “Cravens” Do we assume it was Cravens Homalloy – the unit that built commercial vehicle bodies and trailers?
David Oldfield
04/07/12 – 05:22
Seem to recall that the local enthusiasts used to call this vehicle the”Cabbage Wagon”
Stephen Bloomfield
04/07/12 – 05:24
Ian is quite right about most of the operational details. However, it was never converted for OMO use. A short time before it was withdrawn, I travelled home from work to on Weedon Street in the East End. On this particular occasion the Bedford/Craven 22 seater duplicated a Leyland Leopard/Burlingham 41 seater OMO saloon. Opting for the trip on 22, I was astonished that the vehicle was crew operated! Not a very economical bus for service!
Keith Beeden
04/07/12 – 08:37
Last time I saw it, was in ’79 and was owned by Greenthorpes garage at Darnall, incidentally 500 yards from where it was built! It was painted light turquoise blue with a darker blue band, and was named “Georgie Porgie”! Shame it wasn’t preserved as it was the last bus ever built by Cravens of Sheffield, but the last owners’ extortionate asking price resulted in no buyers and it eventually went for scrap.
Chris Morley
05/07/12 – 07:07
Can’t put a date to this recollection but I remember seeing this bus parked on the drive of a house in Barnburgh, a small village about 18 miles from Sheffield. Whether this was before or after Chris saw it at Darnall I can’t say.
Andrew Charles
06/07/12 – 07:17
I took slides of no 1 working service 190, Alsing Road to Darnall (terminated in Britannia Road) an also screened up for service 44. The body was built at the old Cravens works in Staniforth Road and adverts showed it as being a Cravens Homalloy body.
Stephen Bloomfield
10/07/12 – 06:49
I hesitate to argue with the mighty Keith Beeden, but it was definitely converted for OMO latterly, certainly by 1972. I travelled on it on the 44 at that stage. It was fitted up, as most Sheffield OMO buses were, for a TIM ticket machine- but not a powered one. I believe it only had a 12v electrical system whereas all other buses had the 24v necessary to drive a TIM power unit. I think its duty included trips on the 190, referred to above, before and after the couple of round trips on the 44 which were the entire M-F service on that route. It wasn’t used at weekends. There is an unconfirmed story that STD had an option on a second such bus which would have been used to provide Edale with a rail replacement bus service when BR applied to withdraw the Hope Valley local trains in 1966. When it was found that the replacement buses would cost more than retaining the trains, BR decided not to proceed with this plan and No1 remained unique.
Phil Drake
02/08/12 – 07:30
In reply to Phil Drake I appreciate his statement that the Sheffield Bedford number 1 was indeed OMO converted. Possibly my journey was taken when the equipment was not serviceable? I am humbled to have the term great applied! My interest in Sheffield matters is over some 75 years
Keith Beeden
02/08/12 – 07:32
Bedford VAS1. How many of these were built? Astons Coaches Marton had a Reading DRY 7877C (re-registered for some reason), Bodied one ex Davis Leicestershire who had two. How many Reading bodied ones were built?
David Aston
Typo on the registration I think, four numbers, probably a 7 too many.
20/12/15 – 08:30
The body is by Craven Homalloy Ltd, they also bodied a Leyland 90 for Standard Triumph at Coventry it was KWK 505F (pics on Flickr) it survives as a caravan in Cambridgeshire
John Wakefield
15/07/20 – 06:42
Have just been reading a Sheffield history website. The reason that I was unaware of its sale to King Edward VII was because it wasn’t. It was sold to King Ecgbert School some five miles away on the Derbyshire border – between Dore (service 50) and Totley (service 45).
David Oldfield
28/01/21 – 06:35
David, the website information is WRONG. This bus definitely went to King Edward VII Broomhill in the early 1970’s, I was there! It was looked after by Alan Finch who is mentioned above, assisted by a number of pupils. Possibly after your time Mr Finch set up a car workshop in the sheds on the Glossop Road boundary, next to the notorious outdoor toilets, and taught car maintenance as a subsidiary subject. If I remember rightly the car Mr Finch used for the driving lessons was a light blue Austin A60. The bus was repainted in the original Blue and Cream livery. The KES crest was added under the rear window, hand painted by a pupil who was good at art. A big leather car seat was added at the front left in what was originally luggage space, comfortable for a second teacher on trips out. Years later I did see the bus at Volvo Village and recognised it straight away.
Sam Wood
28/01/21 – 13:26
Sam. It is the sort of thing that Alan would do! [I left in the summer of 1971.] As I said, he got me through the basic MOT and then the advanced (IAM) driving tests in the “School Car”. Everything that you said is correct apart from one thing. The School Car was a 1956 Series II Morris Cowley, refitted with a 1500 engine to make it into an Oxford, with massive “L”s on the sides as well as front and aft. The workshop was indeed by the “Backs”. He drove an A110 Westminster and his wife a Wolseley 1500 (in the same colours as the school car). Lunchtime Road safety lessons were also part of the package and no one drove on the road until they could handle a car on Norton Airfield. Alan also used to regale us with stories of his holiday time exploits as a driver for SUT.
David Oldfield
07/08/21 – 05:24
David, Sorry for the late reply – I don’t look at this site very often. Thank you for the confirmations and corrections. I remember Alan Finch’s Westminster – we did a lot of work on that in the school’s workshop. We had a lot of trips in the Bus, always amused by the number of people at bus stops who put their hands out – no destination or route number but it was cream and blue and they wanted to get on! The furthest I remember going was to Jodrell Bank via Blue John cavern – the Mam Tor road was still open then. Somewhere I have a photo of the Bus taken from the Blue John entrance. The Bus was a tight fit through the school gate on Glossop Road, fortunately the head stones had already been removed which did help. I don’t remember the bus suffering any damage. I’d guess Alan Finch gave the teachers some tuition before they were let loose – it was quite a bit bigger than a normal minibus. At the time we were told the bus had been built for the Transport Department Band, but this doesn’t seem to be correct. I had doubts about this at the time, it did have about the right number of seats but apart from the space at front left there was no luggage space or boot, they would have needed a van for the instruments. Happy memories!
Sam Wood
16/08/21 – 05:45
Sam. Like many local authorities, Sheffield had a special vehicle for the use of the Transport Committee and other local dignitaries. This was 900, the 1958 Roe Dalesman AEC Reliance MU3RV. A bit of an indulgence, it was also available for private hire when not on its intended duties and latterly was used on the Derbyshire B & C routes. The poor councillors must have had a bit of a shock and a tremendous come down when they found out that the replacement, eight years later, was a Bedford VAS1 with weird bus bodywork – No 1.
DOT 248D is a Bedford VAM, bought new in 1966 by Marchwood Motorways of Totton, near Southampton (not TOTON, the great railway marshalling yard and depot in the Midlands!). The bodywork is by Plaxton. Like other members of the fleet bought new, she would have been on private hire and tours duties, before being relegated to staff bus duties at Fawley refinery. We see her in the depot yard on 9 April 1983. She isn’t a survivor.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
14/12/15 – 06:29
Marchwood also had a sizeable fleet in Pembrokeshire until about September 1981. These vehicles were mostly used in connection with the refineries at Milford Haven.When Marchwood decided to withdraw from the area some of the fleet stayed with Pembs operators. Five found a new home with Richards Brothers, Cardigan; they were all Bedford YRQs as follows FOU 217/8K (Viceroys) HPB 674N and TPX 332P “Dominant” buses) and JDE 252L, a Dominant coach.
Les Dickinson
14/12/15 – 16:18
Thanks for that, Les. I have but a vague recollection that the Pembrokeshire operation was, legally at least, a separate company operated as a subsidiary, but I’m probably wrong.
Pete Davies
15/12/15 – 06:26
The FOU 217/8K Bedford YRQ’s were registered in Southampton.
Chris Hebbron
15/12/15 – 07:30
At the risk of being accused of nit-picking, Chris, OU was a Hampshire registration, not a Southampton one. Southampton used CR, OW and TR (until the reorganisation of local government in 1974, when DVLA was established and letters like AX, GM or JM moved from one end of the country to another).
Pete Davies
15/12/15 – 14:02
You’re right, of course, Pete; a senior moment, I’m afraid!
Barton Transport 1964 Bedford Val14 Harrington C52F
The picture shows Barton no. 991 (991VRR) operating on the long established route 9, Nottingham – Skegness service. 991 was a Bedford VAL14, chassis no.1429, supplied new in April 1964 (it says here!) It was one of a series of eight (989-996). A 52 seat Harrington Legionnaire Mark 1 coach body no. 2948 was fitted. At the risk of stating the obvious, it was a three axle vehicle, with the front pair of axles steering. I was 15 when they were introduced, and I and my mates considered them a bit exotic. I am not sure of the location, but suspect it is probably Skegness, and it looks to be a lovely day for a trip to the seaside. “Skegness is so bracing” – sometimes damp as well! The Skegness run was probably the earliest long distance service operated by Barton, going back at least to the 1930s. Its route number was not distinguished by an “X” but mixed in willy-nilly with Nottingham area locals, presumably in their order of introduction. (5 Derby, 6 Keyworth, 7 Epperstone, 8 Oxton, 9 Skegness, 10 Loughborough, 11 Coalville, 12 Leicester). For a good number of years the service actually started from Long Eaton, and I think on peak dates Derby). It competed with Trent’s X3, which I believe took a slightly different route. Skegness was a standard destination on Barton’s blinds, including the double deckers, and there are many published pictures showing that double deckers (plural) were, in fact, often deployed on the route on Summer Saturdays. The well-known Duple bodied front entrance Leyland PD1s were particular favourites. They might be regarded as underpowered for such a long run, but it was actually pretty flat across east Nottinghamshire and Lincolnshire. Although I never saw them doing it, I can well imagine them cantering along the long straight across the fens from Sleaford to North Kyme at 45+ mph emitting the distinctively raucous bark from the exhaust. The refreshment and “comfort” break was always at Billinghay (where we happened to live from 1995 to 2003). My mother could remember travelling to Skegness on the 9 in the early 1930s, and stopping there at the Coach and Horses, where there were public toilets of the “earth closet” variety, with what I will delicately call “multi-position bench seating” ! In the last years of separate Barton existence the comfort break was moved across the road at the Golden Cross.
Copy contributed by Stephen Ford
04/12/11 – 07:58
When the VAL was taking off, people automatically gravitated towards the Duple and Plaxton offerings. Not so Barton, who not only bought Harrington Legionnaires – not Harrington’s finest hour – but also had VALs with some of the last Yeates bodies built (and with TWO doors!)
David Oldfield
04/12/11 – 10:32
Not forgetting the TWO handbrakes eh David?? I could wax lyrical for hours on the Bedford VAL which I considered to be a well designed, very comfortable and delightful vehicle with glorious sound effects to complete the enjoyment for the enthusiast passenger/driver.
Chris Youhill
04/12/11 – 11:43
Re: the location of the photo. I think in fact it is the old Broad Marsh bus station in Nottingham – the open-air version which disappeared in the early 1970s when the current station was built.
KC
05/12/11 – 06:35
The location is definitely Broadmarsh, the only reason I know that is because I’ve been searching photographs recently and if you look to the left of the windscreen, you will see a sign, GEOR– and through the windscreen PRINTERS, this was George Lomas Printers. This prompts me to ask if anyone can help with a query; the problem with old Broadmarsh was that every picture presents a different image, depending on the angle of the shot. We know that the stands were built in a horseshoe shape but in it’s last days, were they re-arranged so that they were parallel to Canal Street? I believe that Collin Street existed but it was nothing like the very busy road it is today. Would I be correct in thinking that old Broadmarsh was altered so that Collin Street could be widened and to allow work on the shopping centre and new bus station to begin?
Chris Barker
05/12/11 – 06:37
Yes, the Yeates bodied vehicles were themselves of two sorts – four with C50D bodywork, the remaining three with DP56D. How did they get the extra six seats in? Well, rearward of the central exit door the seating was 2+3 across the width, like suburban trains. They were used on normal crew operated stage carriage services. The aisle at the rear was very narrow, and when the triple seats were fully occupied, passengers on the aisle side were rather vulnerable to a smack in the ear from a passing Setright ticket machine!
Stephen Ford
05/12/11 – 11:22
Re: the two points made by Chris Barker…… In my previous post I included a link which seems to have been missed off the actual posting. This photo //www.picturethepast.org.uk/one shows the buildings behind the VAL and confirms the location. On the question of the shape of Broad Marsh – the original version was indeed horseshoe-shaped with buses loading on the outside of the horseshoe. When the Broad Marsh area was being redeveloped in the late 60s, the bus station was changed but not parallel with Canal Street. It became two or three long platforms at right angles to Canal Street (parallel with the old railway viaduct). This photo //www.picturethepast.org.uk/two it isn’t brilliant but it shows the point fairly well
KC
05/12/11 – 14:33
If I remember rightly the Yates bodied VAL’s with there dual doors had in large white lettering IN and OUT on them
Roger Broughton
05/12/11 – 14:38
Is this one of the Yates bodied VALs it is another shot from John Turner unfortunately I cannot make out the registration.
The VAL’s were a strange choice of vehicle for the duties involved. Even on inter-urban services with limited numbers of stops, the two sliding doors which I assume where manual, must have been a pain for the conductor and unworkable with omo. But then Barton was one of those type of operators that frequently defied the ‘norm.
Philip Halstead
06/12/11 – 06:43
It is lovely reading the various comments about Barton’s Route No.9 to Skegness. We lived in West Bridgford and caught the service at Trent Bridge outside Saxby’s the newsagents. I cannot remember the technical details of the coaches but they were very comfortable. About 2 months ago I took my daughter and grandson to Woodhall Spa and we stopped at the ‘Coach & Horses’ as I pointed out to them the excitement of knowing that we were about half-way to Skegness! Being of the modern generation they probably did not understand. I have a photograph from that trip but do not know how to include it!
Alan Rose
06/12/11 – 08:46
Chris Y, can enlighten us to how the two handbrakes operated
Roger Broughton
06/12/11 – 15:32
Certainly Roger. As far as I can recall, there was one in the region of the underside of the dashboard and that was operated by a smallish chrome lever with a very positive action. The other was a much larger lever, with button release in the end for the thumb to press, in a central position adjacent to the central engine bonnet cover. One of them was a normal handbrake operating on the rear brake drums, while the other worked by grasping the prop shaft. Egg on my face now, because much as I loved the VALs I can’t remember which was which – it is 42 years since I last drove a VAL !! On balance though, I think the small one was the normal parking brake while the larger “progressive” one was for extra retardation at busy times. I’d be glad if someone can settle this little point for us – one thing though is certain and that is that it was quite common for the uninterested element to do a few miles with one brake still applied before the penny dropped that the engine was not ailing and “pulling bad”, to use that sloppy slang expression.
Chris Youhill
07/12/11 – 06:56
Chris, would it be similar to a Telma retarder?
Roger Broughton
07/12/11 – 10:18
Well Roger, without doubt the effect would be the same, to slow the vehicle without undue strain on the brakes, but there the similarity ends. The Telma is a sophisticated electronic device which can be applied in specific driver selected stages, but the VAL’s second handbrake was a purely mechanical affair. I’m still at a loss to remember which brake did what on those fabulous vehicles. The Barton dual doorway service buses were a model I’ve never before heard of and are delightfully eccentric but no doubt functional. Other wonderful VALs were the North Western “low height” or “Beverley Bar” ones made for use under the Dunham Bridge ?? viaduct- these gave a rather whimsical imitation of the roof lines of London underground stock I always thought.
Chris Youhill
07/12/11 – 10:35
Chris’s mention of the VAL brakes reminds me of a time I rode in a Wallace Arnold VAL during a post-maintenance test run, driven by the Chief Engineer. He was very impressed with the VAL’s keen brakes and every time we past a female pedestrian he would apply the brakes sharply, causing the nose to dip alarmingly – accompanied by the announcement “Bow to the Lady!”.
Paul Haywood
08/12/11 – 06:34
I drove EUG 914D ex Wallace Arnold at Stanley Gath Coaches of Dewsbury. The second hand brake was by the steering column and the handle edge stuck in your leg. The brakes were never up to the job and after they got hot squealed a lot. I was always complaining to our mechanic to adjust them so it was somewhat relieving to be promoted to a Bristol LH.
Philip Carlton
09/12/11 – 08:19
How interesting it was to stumble on the articles on the Bedford VAL. I drove one of these in the early 70`s. But what amazes me is that someone remembers about the two “parking brakes”. The one I drove, I believe an early one, had the retarder handle on the right and the handbrake on the left of the driving position. The retarder handle had a red tip to the lever. I saw a later VAL that was fitted with a Telma, as fitted to later Bedfords I drove. The reason for retarders on these VAL`s was because the brake linings were so small, due to the 16″ wheels and narrow linings, that brake fade was a regular occurrence. But something else that a lot of drivers also forget about the VAL, is the Turner “Chinese” 5 speed gearbox that some were fitted with. I can`t remember the shift pattern now, but it was really odd, with I think only 5th in the normal place. It was even more weird than the Bristol Lodekka 5 speed box, with it`s 5th after going through 4th.
Brian K
09/12/11 – 08:25
Philip, I’m sorry that you were so unhappy with the VAL – suffice it to say that when the large number of these were with Wallace Arnold there was no trouble with squealing or inadequate brakes so that’s a bit of a mystery. Can you please though remember the functions of the two handbrakes ?? I’ve been trying to clear my failing memory, and now I’ve decided that the large one to the left of the driver was the normal one, while the little second one was the device for extra security by locking onto the propshaft ??
Chris Youhill
09/12/11 – 10:28
Brian. The weird “Chinese” 5 was on the early VAL14 (Leyland 0.400 engined) model – which most people now recon was better than the later VAL70 with the Bedford’s own 466 engine. As far as I know, the Bedford engined version had a fairly conventional gate pattern. If I can remember rightly – but I don’t swear to be right – the pattern was something like this: 2 5 1 3 4 R
I cannot recollect the functions of the two brakes – can just remember one being like a Morris pull up handbrake and the other like a Vauxhall umbrella type. Telmas were certainly fitted at a later stage to overcome brake inefficiency. The first one I came across was on a Burton/Brixham coaches VAL14/Marshall bus plying its trade between Brixham and Kingswear (for Dartmouth). The driver obviously knew what he was doing but I was very impressed by the way the Telmar aided safe negotiation of the hilly and winding road between those two places.
David Oldfield
10/12/11 – 07:27
As far as I recall the small one by the steering column was as you surmise locking on to the transmission and the other one was the normal handbrake.
Philip Carlton
10/12/11 – 12:22
Many thanks David and Philip for those helpful recollections which have sorted this matter out. I had also forgotten that reverse and first (crawler) gears were on the right of the gate – and certainly the normal four ratios were indeed as David recalls on the “Chinese” early versions. Philip also confirms that the small chrome handbrake lever, also on the earlier vehicles, was a purely mechanical device on the propshaft – again I had forgotten that later versions of the VAL had electric Telma retarders.
Myself (thin) and a fellow driver posing for a mock “handing over” ceremony of the first of the initial batch of three Bedford VAL coaches (132/3/4 FUM) for Wallace Arnold in 1963.
Chris Youhill
16/12/11 – 08:18
The first coach I drove after passing my PSV test was a Bedford VAL14/Plaxton Panorama KMC 628C for A L Moore of Sleaford, Lincs. The small handbrake on the steering column worked on the propshaft and the large one next to the bonnet was the normal handbrake but, unusually worked on the front axles, not the rear! The ‘chinese’ gearbox was fitted to the VAL14 with the Leyland engine whereas the ‘normal’ pattern 5 speed box was fitted to the Bedford engined VAL70. I remember Bartons VALs coming through my home village of North Kyme on their way to Skegness. Thanks for the memories!
Richard Hill
30/01/12 – 07:36
Fantastic machines I remember in my childhood going to the east coast in Leyland engined VAL”s run by Heaps Tours Leeds (anybody remember them I would be grateful for any info). The climb up Garrowby Hill usually produced some spectacular sound effects.
Tony Greig
31/01/12 – 08:03
The VAL14 in my view produced the purest of all Leyland O400 sound effects, very nicely captured in The Italian Job. (I never travelled on a VAM14, so don’t know if the sounds were quite the same.)
Peter Williamson
31/01/12 – 09:28
Tony I think most older folks in Leeds will well remember Heap’s Tours – a much respected operator who later adopted the title “Heaps Leopard Tours” and had a full picture of those noble animals on many vehicles. I seem to recall that Heaps took over Rogers of Leeds at some stage. The Heaps depot was next door to the Lyric Cinema in Tong Road – a building whose red “Lyric” neon sign remained lit at times long after the cinema closed.
Chris Youhill
31/01/12 – 09:29
Yes they were, Peter.
David Oldfield
31/01/12 – 15:23
Heaps were my local operator as a lad living a few hundred yards from the Tong Road depot which still exists but is now a car mechanics. They had an illuminated sign over the travel office showing an AEC Regal with a Duple body. They bought both Bedford Vals including one with a Harrington Legionnaire body. Later they caused me some personal amusement as they called themselves Leopard Tours but ran AEC Reliances! They eventually became part of the Trimdon Motor Services Group and gradually faded away. Originally their colours were green and cream but this changed to blue and cream in the 1960s. Chris Youhill mentions Rogers of Leeds they were blue and cream and sported a boot logo of an illustration of Leeds town hall
Chris Hough
06/02/12 – 15:03
I drove for Seaview Services on the Isle of Wight for a number of years when on occasion I was allocated a VAL – which I hated! I found the driving position too low, while the steering was almost TOO responsive. I much preferred the YRTs, one of which was fitted with a TELMA – for the hilly bus route between Ryde and Seaview. The trouble was that it used to drain the battery very quickly – so I only used it when absolutely necessary.
Ian L Jamieson
Many thanks Chris Y and Chris H. I can vaguely remember the green and cream livery and as I became more aware of what vehicles they actually ran the idea of an AEC Leopard amused me too. I also recall when Trimdon took them over and they actually did employ Leopards, but as an operator they just seemed to “wither on the vine”. By the early 80″s I had formed other interests away from bus, coach and railway subjects (girls beer and rugby to be precise!) so it was a case of one minute they were there and the next minute they were gone.I should have paid more attention.
Tony Greig
23/04/12 – 06:04
Yes, the small chrome handbrake lever next to the steering column was indeed a transmission brake and whilst the bus moved with it on there could be disastrous consequences to the transmission. Besides the Yeates twin door buses (which did have power doors) and were not used with conductors we had two Plaxton coaches 971 and 972 at Long Eaton garage used mainly on the service 3/3c but on longer distance routes such as Leicester/Nottingham – Morecambe on Saturdays (I was on both these services in the late 60’s) A further one was 970 at Chilwell garage and two more were added to the fleet with the takeover of Hall Bros of South Shields. There were also 5 AEC Reliances with the Yeates dual door body although in later years the centre entrance unlike on the VAL’s was taken out.
Peter,C
24/04/12 – 06:57
Since this subject has been re-visited, I thought I’d mention the fact that when Barton’s were ready to dispose of these vehicles in the 1970’s, the whole batch of eight were advertised in the local paper, the Nottingham Post. I remember thinking, what a very strange thing to do, the thought of the average Post reader buying eight Bedford VAL’s!! I kept the clipping of the advert for many years before discarding it. How I wish I had it now to post on here!
Chris Barker
01/05/12 – 07:12
Hi KC and Chris B. There were several stages of development connected to the ‘open air’ Broad Marsh bus station. The latest being the platforms parallel to the GCR railway viaduct about 1969/70. I’ve not been able to establish when a bus station was first established at this location. The site was cleared of slum housing prior to 1939 so I imagine that the bus station was established in the late forties/early fifties. Examination of large scale OS maps and photos shows that initially there was only a semi horseshoe platform. My particular interest is with the Clifton services from when these were introduced in October 1952. At that time the Cliftons used a stand on the west side of the bus station (from where at a later stage the MGO services to Hucknall departed). The next stage was to construct a platform parallel to the railway viaduct for the Cliftons (circa 1954/55). The next stage was the full horseshoe but with the loading taking place inside the horseshoe with buses moving clockwise around the horseshoe. The last stage of the horseshoe was with loading taking place on the outside of the horseshoe (so buses moved around the horseshoe in an anti-clockwise direction). The Clifton services unloaded passengers at a separate layby adjacent to Widdowson’s factory before moving to the parking area inside the horseshoe (if a layover was being taken) or to the departure platforms to load. This change took place from 1st February 1959.
Michael Elliott
02/05/12 – 08:59
That’s very interesting information Michael, I’ve looked at a great many views of Broadmarsh and whilst the majority of them are self explanatory, there’s always one which is confusing. I wonder if you’re familiar with the book ‘Buses in the Sixties’ a Venture publication by John Banks and the late Geoffrey Atkins which contains many Nottingham pictures. On page 61, there is a shot of a South Notts PD2 on the 68, on the offside of it, an NCT PD2, also on the 68 but seemingly on layover. Behind them is an MGO Lodekka, presumably on the Hucknall service. The roadway appears to be straight but it isn’t parallel with the viaduct because there are many buildings in the background. This ties in with your comment about the Clifton services sharing a stand with the Hucknall service, the problem is, it’s dated June 1969. I’ve been to Nottingham Library and looked at the OS maps but I’ve still not been able to conclude this one satisfactorily!
Chris Barker
09/05/12 – 07:39
Returning to the original subject, I have to confess to being a bit of a fan of the Harrington Legionnaire. The grille is a disaster area of course, there’s no point in denying that. And this particular example, with sliding vents in the windows and six wheels, isn’t the best. But with forced ventilation, and on a Ford chassis (whose larger wheels broke the trim twice rather than half of it three times), it was one of the cleanest designs of its time, and in fact well ahead of its time if you compare it with the offerings of the likes of Van Hool up to 20 years later. //www.flickr.com/ I understand that when Harrington went out of business they were in the early stages of planning to replace the Grenadier with a new model based on the Legionnaire. It already has the Grenadier windscreen, and with no radiator at the front of underfloor engined chassis, it could have been given something like the the Grenadier dash panel in place of the grille.
Peter Williamson
09/05/12 – 19:29
As a big fan of Van Hool for both their understated timeless designs and for their unassailable quality, I can see what you mean about the Legionnaire. …..and yes, pity about the grille. Whilst it is true that generally only quality firms survive it is also true that, sadly, quality firms die through no fault of their own (AEC and Bristol) or because they temporarily lose the plot (Burlingham and Harrington) never to regain it. It takes years to build up a reputation and minutes to destroy it!
David Oldfield
10/05/12 – 07:31
I agree with your comment about reputations David, but there are two opposite ways, aren’t there, to that fatal few minutes – 1. Stubborn decision to cling to a tried and tested product that has passed its sell-by date (Gardner was mentioned on another thread recently); 2. Thrusting, dynamic decision to strike out with a new product that just doesn’t cut the mustard. The former is like trying to stop water from running downhill, and the latter is like trying to make water run uphill!
Stephen Ford
10/05/12 – 11:17
Too true, Stephen. I suppose, in one way, Burlingham was a case of 2nd scenario. Couldn’t better the original Seagull and tried to recapture the market with more and more bizarre offerings until the customers could/would put up with it no more.
David Oldfield
11/05/12 – 08:07
I bet someone can tell me why the VAL had those three axles. Length requirement? Easier turning of length because there was then no rear steer on 3 axles (except a second man sitting over the axle at the back!) Owner vanity? Product differentiation (meaning a styling gimmick, which GM knew all about) Or…..?
Joe
11/05/12 – 09:36
Did Harrington “temporarily lose the plot”? The Cavalier and Grenadier were the best things they ever did, and the Crusader had never been a big seller anyway. From what I have read, their problems stemmed from a shrinking market, their non-core work drying up (e.g. Sunbeam Alpine), and having no capital available to either develop new models or get out of their cramped and old-fashioned factory.
Peter Williamson
11/05/12 – 11:59
Peter, I think you’ve answered your own question. The plot is not necessarily the core activity (like designing a coach) but the other important but less exciting things like financial and business matters and reading the market ahead!
David Oldfield
23/05/12 – 16:58
I’ve just heard about a new sculpture which is to appear hanging over the edge of the roof of the De La Warr Pavilion in Bexhill at the end of June. It’s a life size model of the Harrington Legionnaire bodied Bedford VAL which was used in the 1969 film The Italian Job. The sculpture is called Ang On Lads I’ve Got a Great Idea. Anyone who has seen the film will know why.
Peter Williamson
31/05/12 – 08:14
I worked as a mechanic at Heaps tours from 1968 to 1972. The Val did indeed have the main handbrake working on the front 4 wheels, operated by a large ratchet lever. The umbrella type pull out handbrake (like on some ford cars of the 60s), worked a drum brake on the propshaft. Heaps Vals had Leyland 400 engines, which I fitted exhaust brakes to, to save on brake shoe wear, as one of the hills down south was 6 miles long, so I was told, brakes on all the way. The exhaust brake was operated by compressed air and nearly shut off the exhaust system causing the engine to be a compressor, as most of the exhaust gases could not escape. I have had some fun working on the Bedford Vals.
David Green
05/06/12 – 08:36
The “Harrington Gathering” was at Amberley, Sussex, Sunday (3 June), with an impressive collection of vehicles. There was a VAL/Legionnaire booked to attend, CNW 155C, but it didn’t make it. This particular vehicle is with Kenzie’s, and was new to Heaps.
Pete Davies
06/06/12 – 10:03
This is the former Heaps Harrington bodied VAL. It appears to be in excellent condition, and was photographed at the AEC Centenary Rally at Newark Showground on 27 May 2012. (The Rally had a number of non AECs present).
Bob Gell
12/12/12 – 15:50
The Val parking brakes were interesting. It needed two because of the regulations on the weight which had to be braked by the parking brake. As previously mentioned the big lever on the left worked on the drums on the four front wheels. This brake was safe to be applied whilst moving and would also hold the coach when the wheels were on ice. The umbrella worked the drum on the transmission at the diff. It could not be used when moving.Parking only and was effective but!! if it was parked on ice the wheel on the ice would slip on the ice and allow the wheel off the ice to rotate and the bus would move off down the hill. Neither of them were retarders. A Telma was fitted to many. If the brakes were correctly adjusted they were perfectly OK but most mechanics didn’t know the trick on how to adjust them to get the best. Mine were fine once I used the Bedford “new lining set up procedure” every time I adjusted them and used the Telma retarder intelligently.
John Watson
13/12/12 – 06:16
Whilst the Harrington bodied VALs were heading to Skegness, the Yeates bodied fleet headed off to Blackpool. I recall regularly seeing both single and dual doorway versions on the A6 in Stockport and Manchester. They were probably the most exotically bodied VALs in the UK. I don’t recall the Harrington bodied VALs operating to Blackpool but that doesn’t mean they didn’t – perhaps they didn’t make the same impression! As to an earlier query about why there were three axles, in the year the VAL was launched Bedford ran a half page ad in some national dailies and regional evening papers at the time of the Commercial Motor Show to extol the VAL – a seemingly strange thing to do, foreshadowing Barton’s ad to sell their fleet. The ad stated something along the lines of “two steering axles for cornering stability and smoother riding”, the latter an interesting claim given the 16 inch wheels. Three axles certainly were not a legal requirement.
Phil Blinkhorn
13/12/12 – 10:30
Yes Phil, the VAL was indeed a “surprise” development but nevertheless, as a driver and as a passenger, I found them extremely stable and, as the advert claimed, most certainly superbly smooth riding. If one unavoidably went over an unfamiliar defect in the road the VAL sailed on unperturbed, the only clue being a rather endearing little rubbery sound as both front axles passed over the fault. Better stop now before folks think that I was besotted by the model – well I was – I loved them.
Chris Youhill
13/12/12 – 14:40
The only VALs I ever rode on were North Western’s special Strachans bodied vehicles with the low height, curved roof for the Dunham Woodhouses bridge. These rattled almost from new and it was obvious when a road defect was hit. North Western only kept them until their first seven year certificate expired as body structural defects were too expensive to repair. Stripping out Chris’s bias towards the type, there must be a grain of truth in his observations (!!) as the type was popular and many had long and useful lives. It just shows how a limited experience of a type can influence one’s views.
Phil Blinkhorn
14/12/12 – 07:13
I’m not sure what engines were available for VAL’s or the power of them. Were they quite lively vehicles in service?
Chris Hebbron
14/12/12 – 07:13
I understand that Bedford opted for a three axle layout for their 36 foot coach to avoid having to develop ‘heavy duty’ axles, making use of existing axles from the range of Bedford lorries. Ford, on the other hand, for their 36 foot coach – the Thames 36 – developed heavy duty axles for the chassis.
Michael Elliott
14/12/12 – 08:45
Michael you are spot on with the front axle, as for the engine, I know they used the Leyland 400 but as for a Gardner 6LX I don’t think so with a front entrance.
Andrew
14/12/12 – 08:46
Originally fitted with a Leyland 0.400, after three years this was replaced by a Bedford 7.64 litre engine. I’m not sure about Michael’s comment. The Bedford TK range of trucks produced from 1959 had a number of heavyweight versions available by the time the VAL appeared and had produced heavyweight axles throughout the 1950s for its S range of trucks.
Phil Blinkhorn
14/12/12 – 08:47
Chris. There were only two VAL models – the original VAL14 (1962-1967) and the subsequent VAL70 (1968-1973). The VAL14 had the 125bhp Leyland 0.400 (Tiger Cub) engine (6.54 litres) which was replaced by the 143bhp Bedford 466 engine (7.6 litres). Received wisdom is that, despite being noisy, the Leyland unit was by far the superior engine. It was never, however, going to be lively. [For the likes of me, nothing topples a heavy-weight with AH590/691/760, 0.600/0.680 or 6LX(B) power. The extra torque was crucial.]
David Oldfield
14/12/12 – 10:50
Thx, Phil/David.
Chris Hebbron
14/12/12 – 16:11
As has been touched on already, the concepts behind the VAL were stability and passenger comfort. The use of 16in wheels meant that the resultant vehicle was extremely low-slung and therefore ha a low centre of gravity. The use of 16in wheels also meant a lack of wheel arch intrusion and a flat floor. The third axle was necessary to spread the weight — with small wheels more of them were needed. The extra steering axle also contributed to the stability of the vehicle. Passengers loved the VAL, hence its unprecedented success, but it was challenged in the power department, and with the increasing demand for heavier and more powerful coaches in the 1970s, its benefits became less important.
Philip Lamb
10/01/13 – 07:03
Found this site by accident, was a bus-spotter when a child, have no expert knowledge. I was lucky enough to travel on a Val Vega Major owned by Bullocks of Cheadle, for a Sunday school outing to Blackpool from Stockport. It has been my favourite coach ever since. Sad to see it derelict on the Wakefield Files website. My eleven-year-old imagination caused me to ‘design’ a long-distance coach for Britain’s fledgling motorways, with two rear axles and three at the front! (A Chinese ten?). I have now seen a picture of a double-decker with such an arrangement on the ‘net. Thanks for helping me to wallow in nostalgia.
Malcolm D
08/02/13 – 06:23
Baryons used to use these on service 18 Beeston Rylands to Ilkeston and beeston Rylands to Nottingham I was a conductor with Baryons in the late 60s and worked that route that’s how I met my wife who lived in Beeston Rylands I later became a driver and on occasions they did go to Skegness on the express service.
Geoff Conway
27/04/13 – 15:43
The comment about being challenged in the power department is all too accurate – but then, with a Tiger Cub engine in a 36 footer, they could never be anything else. In the VAL’s case, the weird choice of gear ratios did nothing to help. The gap between 3rd and 4th was so big that on even a modest hill, changing up to 4th was a waste of time. By contrast, 5th was barely higher than 4th. Perhaps there was a good reason for this but I can’t think of one.
Bob Hunter
29/04/13 – 08:01
The 5-speed gearbox on the VAL seemed to be an early attempt to get to grips with motorways while recognising that most drivers would always start in second gear on level ground. Consequently first was little more than a crawler, second was for moving off, fourth (direct drive) for normal cruising and fifth (overdrive) for fast roads and motorways, leaving a huge gap for third to fill. There was an alternative gearbox listed – a 5-speed close-ratio direct-top unit for bus work – but I don’t know if any were actually built.
Peter Williamson
26/10/13 – 08:00
Adding to the comment about two-doorway examples, here is a shot I caught at Kidderminster, Severn Valley Railway a few years ago with one of these examples seen from the doorway side; now how can you miss which door is which?? The SVR used to stage this superb rally early October each year, a magical mix of steam trains, lots of heritage buses and, as here, perfect weather. Sadly, this event no longer continues, I suspect mainly because a combination of car parking constraints down in the town centre/Sunday trading made unavailable the big (car park) space between the SVR and “big railway” stations. I liked to get there early to see the arriving vehicles, and as was the case with this one, I got pleasant surprises to see and photograph buses I never knew had survived.
Rob Hancock
26/10/13 – 17:16
Rob, The SVR still host this excellent rally. This year (October again) at Bewdley – a station further along the line – and again enjoyed a fine day with some interesting and immaculate exhibits. Long may it continue, a great day
Nigel Edwards
26/10/13 – 17:16
Sitting in my daughter’s home in Texas on a sunny Saturday morning, Rob’s photo has immediately transported me back to Stockport Rd, Levenshulme, Manchester on summer Saturdays in 1964 when I had a summer job in a grocers and at least one of these exotic machines would pass on their way to Blackpool. Thinking about the seating aft of the rear door, This must have been bad on stage carriage services and decidedly uncomfortable on the long haul to Blackpool.
Phil Blinkhorn
27/10/13 – 06:49
Rob – I do admire your faith in human nature, but believe me some of the travelling public are well capable of using the wrong doorways, both when boarding or alighting. At Samuel Ledgard we had and ex Daimler/Duple standee demonstrator LRW 377 which had been all over before we bought it and we purchased it as it was expected to be ideal for the busy Otley town services in lieu of a double decker. It SHOULD obviously have been ideal but, oh dear, there were battles royal within at every stop despite the rear and front doors being clearly labelled. It seated 36 with 28 standing if necessary. It was eventually put out to rural pastures on the long service from Bradford to Harrogate, with the standing reduced to eight. Then it was sold to Bere Regis and District in Dorset, who removed the rear door and increased the seating to 42.
Chris Youhill
29/10/13 – 13:27
Here is a link to a Strachans advertisement for the unique North Western VALs mentioned above by Phil Blinkhorn. www.flickr.com/photos/3 Like one or two other correspondents, I wasn’t greatly taken by the VAL. I always understood that the twin steering arrangement was the inevitable result of choosing reduced diameter wheels to reduce the floor height. This meant that the drum brakes had to be correspondingly small, so that an extra axle at the front not only helped to carry the distributed weight of the overhung engine on the small tyres but also provided the necessary increase in brake lining area. Even so, I believe that the VAL, like the PD3, needed an understanding driver where the brakes were concerned. I never drove one, and had only a few trips as a passenger, so I fully respect the much more informed comments of those with greater experience of the type. Certainly Bedford at that time tried hard with well engineered designs to meet the needs of the smaller operators. The subsequent demise of the marque was entirely the result of complacency and R&D starvation by General Motors. A new generation of Bedfords for the motorway age could easily have been developed. The Dennis Javelin was devised to meet such a demand, and it notched up respectable sales.
Roger Cox
29/04/14 – 08:20
The Bedford VAL was a second rate vehicle at Bartons, l liked them but some did not, they were a coach doing a bus job, as a lad l worked with a fitter and we fitted an exhaust brake off an AEC on a VAL 964, it was an instant success it reduced brake wear by 50 per cent. It became standard on all ours and other firms started doing the same, we stopped buying them but later inherited one when we bought Provincial Coaches of Leicester in 66 and more when we bought Hall Bros, South Shields, they all went in the 70s in PX for the new fleet of Leyland Leopards, l have driven VALs on breakdowns, service, and private hire.
Bill Redfern
06/03/15 – 16:17
I have never driven a VAL, but have travelled on several over the years. They achieved the same ride quality on Leaf springs that modern Coaches manage with Air Suspension. The Achilles heel was the brakes, which needed to be adjusted a lot more frequently than other chassis. The 16″ wheels were the same size as the Bedford VAS.
Stemax1960
07/03/15 – 07:11
Readers of this site may be interested to know that this month’s issue of Bus and Coach Preservation magazine has an article about Barton Transport – Bedford VAL 966 RVO. This is one of the Yeates bodied examples, and is now unique.
Stephen Howarth
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
09/03/16 – 16:05
I have only just found this forum, I find it very interesting in as much as my last live in bus, in which I must add brought my 5 children up in, well for several years of their life. My example was a Harrington Legionnaire registration number 8750 HA formerly out of Smethwick, it was originally registered in 1964 making it a VAL14. There has been a lot of remarks made as to the brakes, some later quotes have corrected the layout of parking brakes, the small umbrella type is indeed a prop shaft brake and is not for use as an emergency brake as it can cause breakage of half shafts. The regular handbrake is a ratchet affair which operates on all four front wheels, this does in fact provide a very safe emergency brake. There was a way of getting the front brakes set up properly, this was disconnect all cables from drums, adjust the brakes then reconnect cables and adjust them to operate at the same time on all four wheels. I did upgrade mine to VAL 70 spec. which had a profound affect on stopping power, the VAL70 shoe having 50% extra width. Having driven a variety of buses and trucks over the years this was the nicest to drive, stupidly I scrapped this one in the nineties. By the way it is right as was said, there is a beautiful sound produced from the 400 power plus.
Kenneth Hulbert
10/03/16 – 05:05
Congratulations Sir – what a very fine home for a family, and mobile too which was no doubt an advantage for holidays etc. Like you I always found the VALs of whatever marque to be a fascinating delight to drive, especially for an enthusiast. Why so many people disliked them I can’t imagine – they were adequately powered and braked, and the suspension gave the passengers a superbly comfortable ride which many “traditional” models from other makers couldn’t match. I particularly recall happily that if you unavoidably went over some unexpected or hidden road defect there was no jerking – just a fascinating aural “plupp plupp” as the four wheel front “bogie” contained any shocks incredibly well. I’d love to have a go in a VAL right now – a comfortable ride and delightful sound effects from engine and transmission – a very honest model indeed in the usual Bedford tradition.
Priory Coaches of North Shields 1966 Bedford VAL 14 Plaxton C52F
George Chapman established Priory Coaches of North Shields in 1929. North Shields is located in what was the County Borough of Tynemouth, and the name and company logo relate to Tynemouth Priory, which is an ancient monument situated within the grounds of Tynemouth Castle. By the early 50’s the fleet numbered in excess of 40 vehicles, to the best of my knowledge, they never ran any stage carriage services, although they did have a regular twice-weekly service to two local outlying hospitals in Morpeth and Prudhoe. For as long as I can remember, the fleet consisted entirely of Bedfords of all shapes and sizes, with either Duple or Plaxton bodies. In common with most post war coach operators, at one time much of the fleet was made up of Bedford OB’s. As far as I know, they only ever had one VAL 14, I could be wrong, but I don’t think it was around for very long. The Priory livery was two shades of green and cream with gold lettering, and as far as I can remember the seats were upholstered in a rich dark red moquette material, and very smart they looked. The company has changed hands, but I’m pleased to say they are still on the go, although the fleet is nowhere near the same size as it was. It now numbers around 10 vehicles, the livery has also changed, and is now white with two shades of blue. Bedfords no longer being available, the bulk of the fleet is now mainly Volvo.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye
17/04/14 – 10:55
These were good looking and, for their time, well built coaches. If anything, they were a little more elegant than the Panoramas, with the thick pillar aft of the first bay. The VAL14 (Leyland engine) was better liked than the later and more powerful VAL70 (Bedford engine).
David Oldfield
17/04/14 – 18:24
The 1967 edition of ‘The Little Red Book’, information for which would have been supplied in 1966, stated, that Priory Motor Coach Co. Ltd., had a rolling stock of 12 coaches. 12 Bedford Chassis, and bodies by Duple 6, Plaxton 5, and Yeates 1.
Stephen Howarth
18/04/14 – 09:30
Purely a personal view of course, but I always found the Bedford VAL to be a delightful and fascinating vehicle to ride in and to drive. For whatever engineering reasons – six small wheels/leaf springing etc – its excellent degree of riding comfort seems often to be overlooked by those attaching great importance to its moderate but very adequate performance. I’ve even done journeys of well over 200 miles in VALs, riding and driving, in perfect contentment. While its gladly acknowledged that it can’t match the speed and power of the Leopard/Reliance/Volvo “big boys” it was nevertheless a very commendable design, and appealing too in what might by some be classed as its “cheeky” involvement in stage carriage work here and there. I loved the VALs and remember their plucky character very fondly, and when all’s said and done they came from a very honest “no frills” stable.
Chris Youhill
18/04/14 – 18:20
I have a photo of BFT 942D in cream and blue livery with “Leisureline” in the destination blind in the front bumper. Does anyone know where this operator was based?
Dave Farrier
10/05/15 – 07:12
The Bedford VAL was produced in Underfloor Engine form for Australia in the early 1970s. Why not for the UK market? Seems odd as the United Kingdom was their main stronghold!
Stemax1960
21/05/15 – 06:39
Dave Farrier, Information re coach reg. BFT 942D.your listing of (18/04/14) I have a note from another stating Leisureline to be a Blackpool based company. Note States same livery, information is by son of the owner. The era being around 1970’s.
Alan Coulson
26/02/16 – 14:22
Regarding underfloor engined VAL’s in Australia. As both a driver and mechanic which worked on them in Australia, until they were finally retired from service. The VAL’s you mentioned were actually bodied in Australia in 1974 after the YRQ had come out and after the VAL had actually ceased production. As there were chassis left over we continued to be able to buy them after cease of build in the UK. Until supplies of the new chassis became available, in many cases even the latter BLP had the front engine moved back as to meet customers demands. Keeping in mind that Australian design rules never specified ground clearance heights like the UK did. The underfloor engine option was one you used to pay extra for, at the time $250.00 for and the body builder would move the engine back to behind just the front axle. Not as far back as in the factory build YRQ, YLQ. I myself even moved and engine back in one of my BLP school buses when the engine failed. Bit of a big job.
Guy
18/02/20 – 07:27
Priory went into liquidation at the end of 2019. Their website is down and some links redirect to Rothbury Travel Group
Alan Walker
19/02/20 – 06:18
Priory were latterly owned by the same owners as Rothbury Travel. They also own various other coach operators in the North East and other areas of the country.
Tim Presley
20/02/20 – 06:20
I was brought up in Whitley Bay in the fifties. During the summer holidays, my parents would book day trips either with Wakefield’s, a subsidiary of Northern, or with Priory Motors. Although I was too young to be able to identify the coaches provided, it is obvious looking back that the type most commonly used was the Bedford SB. The last trip that I made with Priory was some years later when I went on a day tour to Buttertubs Pass. For some reason, the coach that should have been provided was not available, and instead of one large coach, we got two small ones. I travelled in the second, A Plaxton Coach-bodied Bedford J2 mini, not perhaps the ideal vehicle for a day tour, and at the opposite end of the scale from the Bedford VAL, nevertheless, I found it an interesting experience.
John Gibson
20/02/20 – 15:34
Another Priory Coaches VAL FJA 990D ended its days derelict in Myalls of Bassingbourn yard. www.flickr.com/photos/
John Wakefield
05/03/20 – 06:46
John, priory Coaches (North Shields) sadly ceased trading in December 2019. They only ever had one Bedford VAL, that’s the one pictured above, there was however another company based in Coalville, who traded under the name of Priory Coaches UK Ltd & Rigleys Hire Ltd. As far as I know, they have also ceased trading.
Ronnie Hoye
06/03/20 – 06:29
FJA 990D was with Priory Coaches, Christchurch. I think there were quite a few Priory Coaches, there was another one in Royal Leamington Spa at 38 High Street
Taken on Sunday April 21st 1963 at a somewhat wet Brighton coach rally this photo shows a Bedford VAL 14 with a Yeates Fiesta C52F body of Whippet Coaches from Hilton in Cambridgeshire Registration No 390 GEW. This was one of only eleven VAL’s bodied by Yeates at least six of which went to Barton Transport and were all fitted with dual doors with either 50 or 56 seats which would seem to make them D/P’s, that of course is open to question. Whatever your view the Yeates bodied Bedford VAL was a fairly unusual combination and was in my view an attractive vehicle which would have benefited from a more restrained paint job.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave
03/11/14 – 06:36
This is a Fiesta body; the Barton ones were based on the earlier Europa styling. Possibly the siting of an exit door amid sloping window pillars may have been considered unsatisfactory.
Peter Williamson
04/11/14 – 06:47
If Dave is correct about Yeates bodying only eleven VALs and seven are accounted for here, could we possibly have details of who had the others?
Chris Barker
04/11/14 – 07:00
Charles Rickards of Brentford had AYV 92B, a Yeates bodied VAL.
These were the only Bedford VAL with Yeates bodywork.
Ron Mesure
05/11/14 – 11:38
This may be a trick of the camera, but the odd thing about this body seems to be the high ground clearance which gives it a rather primitive lorry-look: this and as Dave says the (typical?) Yeates paint job is bucking the trend towards smoother, unfussy lines eg the Harrington Bartons…. and by-the-by why Whippet?- in northern climes, it is a poor man’s Greyhound (delightful though they are, he adds hastily) and “Whippet Quick” is not a phrase you want attached to your business.
Joe
05/11/14 – 15:40
I think it’s inherent in the design, it looks high. The Duple Vega Major looks low, sleek and right. To a lesser extent, so does the Plaxton Val. The other mainstream coach on the VAL, the Legionnaire, looked higher – as did the other minority body, the MCW Topaz II.
David Oldfield
09/11/14 – 06:51
To not answer Joe’s question about the name “Whippet”, unfortunately the book issued to mark the operators 90th anniversary says that the “the origins of the name are obscure” so presumably the present owners never asked their grandfather where he got the name from. They also own a non trading company called Bloodhound Bus Lines!
Nigel Turner
10/11/14 – 06:56
If Paul Carter, the author of the “Whippet” book, and of several other comprehensive East Anglian transport volumes, cannot positively elicit the origins of the name, then I doubt that anyone ever will. It has been suggested, however, that the name was adopted to give an indication of speed, and “Greyhound” had already been (over)used elsewhere to such an extent that the name was becoming rather a cliche, hence “Whippet”. Originally, it was “The Whippet”, but in more recent times, presumably inspired(!) by the Go Northern, Go Ahead, Go Whittle etc Academy For The Misuse Of The English Language, it has traded as “Go Whippet”. As one living locally to this operator, I continue to be bemused by its radical changes of livery every few years. The only constant factor is the inclusion of blue in some form. Latterly this has become a rather unexciting shade that covers almost the entire vehicle, but individual buses have differing applications of the relief colour – this is just a simple yellow stripe on the latest acquisitions. All the Busway vehicles, Whippet and Stagecoach, wear the same livery, which is rather confusing to the public as the tickets of the two operators are emphatically not inter-available. The County Council did attempt to introduce a common ticket along the Busway, but this fell foul of rejection through inter operator rivalry, and has been abandoned. Another characteristic of the company is the policy of allocating individual buses to individual drivers – each driver keeps the bus for the entire working day. This may be a sound policy for coach work, but it mitigates against efficient bus utilisation. At certain times of the day, the bus stations at St Ives and Huntingdon are full of Whippet buses on layover.
Roger Cox
17/11/14 – 06:44
Whippet has been sold to Tower Transit – an Australian company.
Mark Smith
17/11/14 – 17:21
Back in 1952, Mr Lee was in talks with Eastern National about selling the business however nothing came of it. According to the EN records Mr Lee wished to retire but did not think his sons were capable of running it.
Nigel Turner
18/11/14 – 06:13
Even before that, in May 1947, and again in early 1951, Mr Henry Lee entered into talks with Mr Arthur Lainson with a view to selling out to Premier Travel. Now, nearly 27 years since the demise of the Lainson era Premier Travel, Whippet is still around, though I foresee some significant changes on the horizon once a financially hard nosed new owner takes charge.
Roger Cox
19/11/14 – 15:17
I think a sell off by Whippet has been on the cards for some time, Stagecoach would probably have bought them if it was not for the monopolies commission. At least it should now put Whippet in a stronger position in the Cambridgeshire bus scene & provide some competition to Stagecoach. On a lighter note, I wonder if they will replace the Whippet with a Kangaroo!!
John Wakefield
10/01/16 – 05:52
A year or so on & Tower Transit have not made significant changes to Whippet, they are still only operating around the same amount of services, many tendered rural route supported by Cambridgeshire County Council. No new buses have been acquired although some ex London ones have cascaded down but these are ‘old’ vehicles including some short Dennis Darts on 03 plates. But they also have three 12 plate ADL Enviro 200’s branded ‘Puppy’s for use on rural routes. As at present they are no threat to Stagecoach. They have though produced a useful fold up timetable covering all bus routes.
John Wakefield
10/01/16 – 10:50
I like John’s comments about Whippet and the name for the ADL Enviro 200. Among my traffic duties with Southampton City Council was visiting applicants for disabled parking bays. On one occasion, I was ushered in and I saw the back end of a dog disappearing through a doorway. A few minutes later, one of the household asked, “Where’s Tyson?” “He’s in the back garden,” was the reply. Now, Tyson, in the canine context, projects an image of some of the more vicious breeds. Eventually, Tyson condescended to return indoors. I saw a whippet. Clearly, the owner had a good sense of humour!
Pete Davies
27/01/18 – 07:05
Whippet have recently terminated a number of subsidised routes around Huntingdon and St Ives which have now been taken by Stagecoach Busway and Dews.
David Ormerod
12/06/19 – 06:29
Whippet are hoping to celebrate in some way or another, it’s 100 year anniversary (sometime in 2019 but no one knows when!). I would love to hear from anyone with ideas how best we could celebrate this event(we will most likely pick a date in Aug 19 for our celebration). I don’t believe we will wish to go too over the top and the budget will be limited.
Pauline
13/06/19 – 06:29
Pauline (I assume you are in some way connected with Whippet) The event that you could have chosen for the 100 year celebration was Bus Fest at Whittlesey in May, but that event is now past. You really should have arranged a date at the beginning of the year and ahead of the rally season. Most events have now been advertised in the various bus enthusiast publications and calendars. I do wonder if there is much interest in the company now since the take over by Tower Transit and more recently Ascendal. Sad that this old & respected established company was sold out of the Lee family ownership.
John Wakefield
14/06/19 – 06:30
Hi John Yes, I am Office Manager at Whippet Coaches and (last week) was given the enviable task of organising an event to celebrate the 100 year anniversary.
Coalporters Amateur Rowing Club 1966 Bedford VAL 14 Duple C48F
There isn’t a lot to be said about this poor creature other than ‘oh, dear!’. LBY 173D is a Bedford VAL with Duple body, new in 1966 and relegated to carrying club members and their boats to and from events. She is seen near the group’s premises near Northam Bridge in Southampton, on the dull afternoon of 21 September 1981. What might in other circumstances be thought of as part of the frame for the upper deck is the boat rack.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
25/09/16 – 11:55
At long last, I have been able to gain access to Bus Lists On The Web! For some strange reason, I have not managed to gain entry until now. Perhaps I wasn’t hitting the correct buttons in the right order, but never mind. That website tells us that this vehicle was new to Rickards in May 1966. I imagine she had the maroon livery from new – what a comedown to this!
Pete Davies
Actually, at 15 years for a Bedford, I don’t think this coach looks so bad. Decent livery and lettering reflecting I assume… Coal! It must have been over a few unsurfaced roads and even riverbanks and there seems little damage: bashed bumper, dent behind front wheels… and smart wheels too. The contraption on top looks odd when empty but loaded perhaps even impressive! Presumably the VAL was lower and better for the job?
The Bedford SB was the successor to the ubiquitous OB. Launched at the 1950 Commercial Motor Show, it had big shoes to fill. It was Bedford”s largest PSV chassis yet, some 17′ 2″ long, and possessed a four-speed synchromesh gearbox. Common at the time, but disappearing fast, it had vacuum brakes and a six-cylinder 4.9 litre petrol engine, developing 115bhp, more than the OB, but still modest for a much larger, heavier, vehicle. It became a big seller in India, Pakistan, Australia, New Zealand and Africa, as well as in the UK. The largest fleet of SB buses in the world belonged to New Zealand Railways Road Services, with 1280 SB buses, built between 1954 and 1981. It proved versatile, too, being used as a basis for specialised vehicles, such as mobile libraries, even cinemas, plus civil defence control units. The SB chassis, with all its variants, was the longest-produced PSV chassis Bedford”s built, maybe ever built, production not finally ceasing until 1987, 37 years in total. Bedford”s commercial products were well regarded at the time by the Armed Forces and the SB chassis found favour, too. Willowbrook and Strachans built many of the bodies for military Bedfords, but here is a rarer example, sporting a Mulliner body, in the long-obsolete RAF blue-grey. It looks new here, with no roundels or insignia. Note the minute sidelights and the surprising amount of chrome “bling” around the front of an otherwise utilitarian vehicle! I recall these vehicles in my RAF National Service days, but their use was usually confined to ferrying personnel from married quarters to camp, RAF family events and sports-minded airmen to sports events on Wednesday afternoons and Saturdays. I was neither married (no money) nor sport-minded (no talent)! The usual mode of travel for us airmen was the rather less comfortable Bedford RL 3-tonners, sitting on fold-up longitudinal benches in the back! However, my sole trip in an SB, from RAF Stafford to RAF Wellesbourne Mountford, showed them to still posses some of the OB”s character – whining gearbox, plus under-powered, but willing, engine, even when lightly loaded. Strangely, though, I can”t recall anything of the interior, not even the seat coverings! Maybe someone can enlighten me?
Photograph and Copy contributed by Chriis Hebbron
18/09/11 – 11:30
This picture brought back many memories to me (not all pleasant) of my service in the RAF. Being one of the last National Servicemen; I reported to RAF Cardington (now a housing estate) on the 14th of August 1960. After basic training at RAF Bridgenorth I was posted to RAF Wheeton for driver training and then ended up at a Thor missile base at RAF Hemswell in Lincolnshire. Upon reporting to the motor transport safety officer (actually a corporal) he noted that I had served an apprenticeship at Vauxhall Motors. As this was the company that built Bedford buses he ordered me to jump into a handy SB and drive it around the airfield perimeter road. Although I had never driven a bus before I completed this task with ease. Then he asked first for my RAF driving license and then if I had any interest in sport. I gave him the license and answered ‘no’ to his question. He then produced a rubber stamp and endorsed my license with the words “qualified bus driver”. That afternoon I collected a happy crowd of footballers and supporters from the camp gates and wondered if they would be quite so happy if they knew it was my first trip on the road behind the wheel of a bus! Luckily all went well and I continued to enjoy many happy hours behind the wheel of these and many other interesting vehicles.
John Barringer
19/09/11 – 07:05
I don’t know how to thank Chris H and John enough for this contribution as it details my own very happy experience considerably. I was on National Service from October 1954 -56 and these superb vehicles were entering RAF service in considerable numbers. I have been unsuccessfully seeking photos of them, and of their glorious OWB RAF predecessors, for decades and what a magnificent picture this is. I joined up like John at RAF Cardington and was transported from Bedford station in an OWB – my delight at this conveyance was dispelled in seconds by a vicious “official” who left us in no doubt about the doom which was to be our fate for the next two years. After radar training at No. 2 E & W School at Yatesbury in Wiltshire I was posted to RAF Patrington near Hull, where my long acquaintance with both types of Bedford was a daily delight. The Domestic Site was approximately five miles from the Technical Radar Site at Holmpton near Withernsea and all shift changes (24 hour operation) were “by Bedford.” The “PSV” fleet usually used consisted of two new SBs and a magnificent “War hero” OWB, the latter normally being expertly and lovingly driven by Sam, a civilian employee from Patrington village, who wore a chauffeur’s hat for the purpose. Chris H was treated to luxury indeed when he travelled in the “RL” three tonners of which we had a couple, but we normally screamed merrily and delightfully along the country roads in a “QL” with similar seating. The fabulous sounds emitted by the latter were a real joy to me, except when it was being “flown” by a twelve year regular SAC who was just finishing his time with us after several years assisting the population explosion in Hong Kong – or so he constantly and graphically boasted – but his driving was dangerous and abominable beyond description. Enough digressing, sorry, and now to return to our “PSV” trio. My joy at the picture above will be apparent when I say that the bus is from the same batch as our first one at Patrington, so I doubt if I’ll ever see a more pertinent photo now. The vehicle was 29 AC 52 and its slightly newer twin was 30 AC 52. The OWB was 00 AC 62. The interiors of the Mulliner bodies I can remember with utter clarity. They seated thirty passengers on very tidy and comfortable seats upholstered in attractive mid blue leatherette type material – the seats had “quick release” wing nut mountings for rapid conversion to ambulance use, for which purpose longitudinal rails were fitted in the ceilings – the ceilings being in pleasing cream gloss paint. Double hinged doors in the back of the bus enabled stretchers to be loaded and I seem to recall that either eight or sixteen could be accommodated. As you entered the bus there was on one of the step risers the inevitable RAF descriptive brass plate describing the vehicle :- COACH SERVICE CONVERTIBLE TO AMBULANCE, BEDFORD 4 x 2, MULLINERS LTD. The wording may not be spot on, but near enough.
Chris Youhill
19/09/11 – 07:08
A nice shot, although I would query the seating configuration given in the heading (C29F) – most of these were B36F and weren’t anywhere near as rare as the text seems to imply. As well as the large number used by all three armed forces SB/Mulliner buses were also supplied to other government agencies such as the UKAEA. Some went to civilian owners after demobilisation and seemed to be particularly popular with operators on both sides of the Welsh border ranging from Mid-Wales Motorways to Primrose of Leominster. There was also an “airside” version with perimeter seating which was used at Heathrow and other airports. Can anybody come up with an estimate of how many of this design were produced in total?
Neville Mercer
19/09/11 – 07:10
I believe Mulliner became Marshall but were they always based at Cambridge Airfield – or was that just Marshall?
David Oldfield
19/09/11 – 11:28
I could be wrong, but I think that Mulliner was a Birmingham area company, and that it was only the “basic bus” part of the business which was sold to Marshall – Mulliner also made specialist bodywork for cars (as hearses etc), ambulances, and the fire brigade sector. Their last attempt to gain a foothold in the mainstream PSV market came in 1958 when they produced a pair of futuristic coach bodies on Guy Warrior chassis, one of which was exhibited at that year’s Commercial Motor Show. “Spot On” later produced a 1/42 scale diecast model of this vehicle – the only coach in their range which made Dinky Toy’s choices of a Maudslay/Whitson observation coach, a Duple Roadmaster, and a BOAC Commer-Harrington Contender look relatively sane!
Neville Mercer
20/10/11 – 08:25
I’ve just realised that its 57 years today since, at Her Majesty’s command, I joined the RAF and reported to the still famous RAF Cardington with its airship hangars. In a little over three months I was to become an almost daily commuter on the beautiful Bedford SB/Mulliners – in some ways it seems like yesterday, and in others like centuries ago !!
Chris Youhill
21/10/11 – 06:42
I am just a shade too young to have been “eligible” for National Service, Chris, but I attended RAF Cardington as an ATC Cadet for one week’s Summer Camp in 1956. My main memories are, of course, the massive airship hangers, and also the flights we were given in de Havilland Chipmunks. Cardington has no airstrip, and we were flown from the football field. Bouncing over the rough surface at speed with every appearance until the last minute of taking off through the goalposts is an experience not easily forgotten.
Roger Cox
22/10/11 – 17:41
The Spot-on Mulliner coach was a luxury version which was cat no 165
Roger Broughton
23/10/11 – 11:41
Well, fancy that Roger C – so the expertise gained during the Dambuster raids had peace time benefits too eh ??
Chris Youhill
24/10/11 – 07:38
Thank goodness, Roger C, you didn’t score an own goal!
Chris Hebbron
24/10/11 – 07:41
For all you ex RAF types who seem to have many memories of both Bedford SB’s and RAF Cardington, I have just uploaded a video onto Youtube showing Cardington Camp as it now is. It is titled RAF Cardington 2011. You will hardly recognize the old place now!
John Barringer
24/10/11 – 11:59
Wonderful little film John, thank you very much. Incidentally I made that famous inward journey in a wartime RAF Bedford OWB bus, and you had the first letter right, but it was TERROR rather than trepidation. A week later the outward trip was in a brand new Bedford SB/Duple luxury coach of Worthingtons Tours – new bulging kitbags in the boot – to Number 11 School of Recruit Training, Hednesford – what a civilised sounding name for the Staffordshire hilltop Hell hole !! Incidentally, what sort of vehicle was the film made in, as it made some rather pleasing transmission noises as you went along ??
Chris Youhill
25/10/11 – 06:50
Thank you for your kind words Chris concerning my film. You were lucky to leave Cardington Camp in the luxury of a coach! Were were marched across the fields at the rear of the camp to the now defunct Cardington village railway station. There we caught an ancient steam hauled train pulling clerestory roofed carriages adorned with dusty blue moquette seating and oval Victorian pictures of Bournemouth in its heyday. It took eight hours to reach Bridgenorth, another RAF hellhole but this time in Shropshire. I knew we were in trouble when I saw the inmates polishing the trees. The car used for filming was my wife’s ancient Suzuki Ignis and yes the gears do whine that maybe has something to do with 70 000 miles plus on the clock. It can’t compare, however, with a TD1 in full chat!
John Barringer
25/10/11 – 10:57
Thanks indeed John for those further poignant and amusing views. I’m sure that my school friend Keith and I travelled from Bedford to Cardington in that very same ancient train. At least we were spared the polishing of trees at Hednesford, as nothing grew up there in November and December – ever since 1954 I’ve had a close affinity with the musical classic “In the steppes of Central Asia.” Your good lady’s car makes most appealing sounds and, while I agree that it must come a close second to the TD1, there is a definite resemblance to the lovely effect used by the BBC in olden days when vehicles in radio plays were moving off – happy times now gone.
Chris Youhill
26/10/11 – 05:56
Ah yes – the BBC sound effects of a bus moving off. If memory serves me right, I read many years ago that the standard recording used by the BBC in the fifties / sixties was actually of a London Transport STD class of the Leyland TD7 utility version. From the crew’s viewpoint, this was the most unpopular of the various utility types that London Transport received during the war years. But I doubt that the BBC recording department were aware of that fact, and presumably just asked for a bus and driver they could use. I wonder if this recording is still available now?
Michael Hampton
26/10/11 – 15:29
Nobody travels in buses to school in plays any more. They are all running Millie to school etc etc in their MPV/4×4’s!
Chris Hebbron
27/10/11 – 07:19
Although I didn’t serve in the Forces (although I did spend eight years with the ATC), I did enter another example of a parallel universe in 1960 when I joined London Transport in a clerical capacity. The absurdities of this organisation astonished me, especially the endless compilation of useless statistics and percentages. As an example – one had to explain why accidents to dogs had increased by 100% from one accounting period to the next. Answer – two dogs had been run over instead of one.
Roger Cox
29/10/11 – 07:20
Michael’s comment about BBC sound effects puzzles me, because my recollection of BBC broadcasts during that period was that the standard bus sound effect was an RT, although I didn’t realise that at the time. Having only met Leylands, Daimlers and Bristols in the real world, I was intrigued as to how something that sounded to my childish ears like the engine of a tractor married to the gearbox of a vintage Bentley could possibly be a bus. It wasn’t until I spent a few weeks in RT-land in 1965 that all became clear. There was definitely no clutch judder, which there presumably would have been on a TD7.
Peter Williamson
02/11/11 – 07:04
Michael Hampton
Peter, thanks for your comment on the BBC recording. I only vaguely remember it myself, probably in Hancock’s Half Hour or similar. At that time I would not have known the difference between any of the bus types discussed here! However Buses Illustrated ran a series on the London STD class in the mid- to late sixties. The statement that the BBC recording was of an LT STD class TD7 was made either in the article itself, or in correspondence in later issues responding to that series. It may be that the BBC also used an RT recording at times, but my impression from the information in BI was that it was usually the TD7 which was brought on.
Michael Hampton
02/11/11 – 09:34
My observations – as a radio addict – are that the most common recording star was an RT (preselector) type of vehicle or something akin to a petrol Bedford SB. When they do the school bus/local bus on the Archers (they were doing it quite a bit a year or two back) I could not identify what they used. [Having driven most of what might be expected on rural/school routes, I think I should have recognised it – but do they make do with running a BBC van around the car park these days?] Whatever happened to Commers or Dennis Lancet IIIs?
David Oldfield
07/11/11 – 07:45
David, I think I know the Archers recording you are referring to – the one where Will first met Nic on the bus? It must have been some sort of archive recording, as it was clearly underfloor-engined and semi-automatic. Someone elsewhere has suggested an AEC Reliance. There seems to be a general problem with recordings of rear-engined buses, possibly in that the sounds are not recognisable out of context. So much so that even in British films and TV programmes, a recording that gives the impression of the engine being closer to the camera is often preferred. Most bizarrely I’ve seen a Bristol VR accelerating past the camera with a recording of what sounded like a Ford Transit! That may be why Hollywood seems to prefer rear views of buses accelerating away from the camera, which works much better (especially with a Detroit 2-stroke!).
Peter Williamson
24/11/11 – 14:30
I stumbled across this thread whilst Googling for the body builder of the RAF coaches. As an ex-Brat (RAF Boy Entrant) I too have fond memories of these Mulliner bodied SBs, both in the UK and on detachment to Nicosia where they had cut away rear ends to prevent them grounding on some of the narrow mountain roads where the bends were lined with rocks. Back in the late ’50s when EOKA were active, the road through the mountains from Kyrenia to Nicosia was one that I recall as “interesting”. A couple of times we managed to hit the rocks with the back end so I guess our rear wheels must have been rather close to the edge! From memory almost every UK RAF flying station had at least one Mulliner/SB and some had two. They were also to be found at RAF stations throughout the Middle East (Cyprus, Aden, El Adem, Arabian Peninsular etc.) as well as at civil Ministry of Aviation establishments such as Farnbrough and Pershore. A photo (my copyright) of a Pershore operated example can be found at //www.transportphotos.com/road/photo/JM12052 This differed from the RAF variant in that is did not have the rear doors but did have extra side mouldings below the windows as well as a destination display box. Another variant with full height opening windows (suggesting an export to a hot climate) can be found at //www.transportphotos.com/ This one was photographed at the Royal Group of Docks awaiting export in 1951. Am I right in thinking that some police forces also used this combination?
Bob Hobbs
23/04/12 – 05:55
Like many of you above I’m also an ex serviceman but Royal Navy. My first memory of these buses were three Bedfords, 2 x SBs and 1 x OWB in use at at HMS Mercury in 1958. I also subsequently came across and travelled daily on RN SBs in Malta during 1960 and 1961. For many years I have been attempting to establish the roof livery of the Malta based RN SBs? Was it dark blue as in the UK or a different colour? Despite in-depth research, no RN vehicle records appear to have been retained by MoD(N) or can be found elsewhere? Any help would be much appreciated?
Mac Head
21/05/12 – 17:47
I attach a view of a more modern version of the SB. 41AC54 was on duty at one of the early open days at RAF Fairford, on a sunny 16 August 1981. A few minutes earlier, I’d photographed a USAF International, of typical American “School Bus” outline (only in blue rather than “School Bus” yellow). Note the incredibly high level of security we had to endure in those far off days (Ha Ha!)
Pete Davies
23/10/12 – 07:59
In reply to Mac Head I would imagine the roof livery to be white (to reflect the heat from the sun). This is my recollection of the SB at Kai Tak.
Phil Robbins
23/10/12 – 11:12
Finally, without any prompting, Phil has come up with recollections the same as myself – a white roof. All ex servicemen I had previously questioned appeared to think they were painted the same colour as the bodywork.
Mac Head
29/10/12 – 06:58
Reply to Mac Head, if you go onto airliners.net and key in Bristol Britannia on the search box a list of Brits will come up. On the first page scroll down to the 12th photo which should be xm 489. Now click on the white xm 489 text to the right of the photo and 4 images will appear, the last one will show what appears to be an R.A.F SB coach with a white roof at the side of the Brit. hope this is of help to you.
Phil Robbins
05/02/13 – 06:56
Ahh the RAF Bus! My first ever trip in a RAF service vehicle was a Bedford SB (of the same type as the one seen in the picture at Fairford) in April 1979 when I was, with many other recruits picked up at Newark train station and then taken to my basic recruit training at RAF Swinderby situated on the A46 between Newark and Lincoln. I seem to remember it was rather utilitarian, matt green and looking a bit run down, with green leathercloth seats, I remember they had taken out the two rear rows to allow room for all our baggage. My next personal encounter with one of these buses was a LHD version in Germany in 1981/82. Again tatty overall matt green but with RAF blue grey insides, this vehicle was used to take us Squadron Erks onto Harrier Force field deployments, which lasted until such time you were trained to drive, or became the designated passenger in one of the Squadron “Luxury?” Bedford RL trucks, (or as my Sargeant called them, ” A Four and a half litre drophead coupe, with a capacious boot!”) I remember these trucks were also RAF blue inside with a plate giving instructions on preparing the vehicle for air transport in Argosy aircraft! (By then long out of service). I remember these SB’s were replaced in the early to mid eighties with Wadham Stringer bodied Bedford buses and plain looking 36ft long Marshall bodied buses, Leopards I think but I may be wrong on this. They were painted in various strange light blues whites and greens. I understand this was because a camouflage green bus was seen as an easy spot for a terrorist ambush by the IRA, and making them look like a civvie vehicle would reduce this risk.
Steve Murray
05/02/13 – 09:30
Your assumption is right, Steve. I recall that (verified as February 1972) the IRA blew up a coach carrying soldiers on the M62 motorway, killing 9 of them, plus 2 civilians. However, it was a civilian one and it would appear that it was specially commissioned to carry British Army and RAF personnel on leave with their families to several bases – including Catterick in North Yorkshire – during strike action on the trains. From this atrocity, I imagine that the MoD decided, poste haste, to (re)paint their own passenger vehicles in various colours for some years. My recollection was that they were keen on pastel shades. although pink was never used, to the troops” relief, I suspect!
As for the Bedford RL’s description of being a ” A four and a half litre drophead coupe, with a capacious boot!”, in my time it was the ubiquitous (to RAF only)Standard Vanguard pickup seen HERE: www.flickr.com/photos/ As they rotted with the same speed as the Alfa Sud, it’s amazing one has survived!
Chris Hebbron
05/02/13 – 10:10
Trivia from the “pen” of a crinkly. I know a lovely lady in Woking who recently retired as a physiotherapist at Headley Court. She was actually a squaddie who survived that M62 coach bombing. I think it influenced her choice of subsequent career.
David Oldfield
05/02/13 – 13:52
During my time in the RAF (1954 – 6) the Service had large numbers of Standard Vanguard cars and vans, as well as the pickups. In view of the atrociously high fuel consumption and excessively luxurious ride of these vehicles it seems the strangest imaginable choice when, presumably, economic operation was desirable.
Chris Youhill
06/02/13 – 07:11
The mention of the M62 coach bombing reminds me that this Sunday[10/2/2013] there is to be a memorial service at Hartshead Moor Motorway Services for the victims. There has been a plaque there since 1975 and there is an annual service on the Sunday nearest to the actual date.
Philip Carlton
06/02/13 – 07:13
My family had the estate car version of the Phase 2 Vanguard. As Chris Y says, heavy on fuel, but very comfortable. It carried all our camping gear for a family of 5 and gave several years’ good service. It certainly didn’t suffer the ravages of the rust worm that Chris H mentions – perhaps this was due to the fact that the bodywork was provided by a proper coachbuilder, Mulliners.
Alan Murray-Rust
07/02/13 – 06:36
And with mention of Mulliner’s, Alan, our meanderings come the full circle!
Chris Hebbron
19/04/13 – 07:20
Just stumbled on this site looking at other Bedford buses. I have owned a Mulliner bodied one for around 20 years now. I also converted it to live in and have lived in it all this time. I have converted it to lpg and it runs lovely on it. Here is a link to a picture.
Pete
19/04/13 – 11:02
Thx for the posting, Pete. Your photo shows how sound these vehicles were – sixty years old and still going strong! Hopefully, you’ll find it a good resting place if you need to dispose of it at some time. Any idea of the original registration?
Chris Hebbron
26/04/13 – 07:41
The registration number carried will have been its original one, there was large batch of Government owned buses with RGX registrations-in fact all the London registration series RGX was allocated to the government starting in May 1955.
David Hick
26/04/13 – 08:50
Thx for the info, David, which I didn’t know.
Chris Hebbron
25/06/13 – 07:39
I am most interested in the site, I was at Bridgnorth after square bashing I went to Wheeton on a driving course .. Austin 1 tonners and light cars Vanguards I recall 1960/1..I was posted to Goldsborough .. wonderful posting 5 miles North of Whitby, At this time I was taking Bomb disposal crews to Fylingdales on York moors in 3 ton RL Bedfords.. They were un-suitable and we were allocated a coach.. cant remember number and I too was given a run to Middleton St George now Tyne Tees airport.. I passed and had 1629 endorsed and away I went.I remember the very light steering semophor indicators later fitted with flashing indicators.., they were really great runners.. Happy days Geoffrey Pallett ex SAC 5131 bomb disposal sqn 19 61 /3..now 72 yrs old and still have hair. location Tamworth Staffs……bye..
Geoffrey Pallett
05/08/13 – 08:08
In reply to Chris .. the reg. is original and is RGX 323 and is still carried on the vehicle. I am hoping to take it out on a run to Aberystwyth on the 15th Aug for the weekend.
Anon
06/08/13 – 06:08
Good luck – hope it runs well. Let’s see a photo after the event.
Chris Hebbron
21/08/13 – 06:29
Well the wheels haven’t turned yet .. I am low on funds so wasn’t able to go. Its about 50p per mile on LPG have been busy repainting it though so will be looking good for when I eventually get it out on the road again.
Pete
21/08/13 – 06:29
I have only just found this very interesting site and would like to add something of my time in the RAF.As most writers I started at Cardington then on to Padgate for square bashing then Weeton for driver training. Although I was called up for National Service I signed on for 4 years. I was posted to 2 Motor Transport Squadron at Lichfield in Staffordshire. 2 MT was the long distance heavy vehicle section of the RAF. Also at Lichfield was 99 Maintenance Unit, responsible for collecting new vehicles from the manufactures for onward transmission to stations all over the World. If 99 MU were short of drivers we at 2 MT helped out by going to the manufacturers to collect vehicles. This was my first introduction to the Bedford S.B. Coach which we collected from Mulliners of Birmingham. Along with the Bedford R.L. The Standard Vanguards we collected from Coventry and Land Rovers from Birmingham.These were good days out as we were normally given a rail pass if there was only a few of us going and a bus from the nearest station to the manufacturer. Because on 2 MT Squadron we only had lorries and no coaches it wasn’t until I was posted to Seletar in Singapore that I caught up with the Mulliner Bedford again. It was a very nice vehicle to drive so smooth and quiet with the petrol engine. We had, at Seletar, another type of Bedford S.B which was not as bulbous at the front and looked flimsy against the Mulliner, but I cannot remember the name of the body builder, perhaps someone will know and enlighten me. We also had, which I loved driving was the Commer Commando deck and a half airport coach the same as B.O.A.C. and B.E.A. were using at the time.
Brian Blackburn
22/08/13 – 17:37
Like Brian my RAF career followed almost the exact pattern. Induction Cardington – where I also did my square bashing, then Weeton and (via Martlesham Heath) Lichfield but to 5003(AC)Sqdn. Also like Brian I did 4 years because the trade of ‘Dispatch Rider’ was unavailable. I recently looked over a fine preserved example of the Commer Commando at the Elvington Air Museum www.yorkshireairmuseum.org/exhibits/ and, with further ‘googling’ – on Reg No – you can find more information/photos of this vehicle.
Nigel Edwards
23/08/13 – 15:33
Brian, The less bulbous fronted Bedfords were most likely bodied by Strachens
Roger Broughton
13/11/13 – 16:58
Funny what you come across when idling over the keys on one’s computer, my mind was taken back to the summer of 1956 when I became a guest at the behest of the government of the day’s two year National Service scheme. It must have been on arrival at Bedford station (via Devon, London St.Pancras and Bedford) when I first encountered things RAF, for there waiting for me and similar such lambs to the slaughter, was this blue RAF bus. Welcome to the RAF. Having no idea what sort of a bus it was, a bus was just a bus. (profanity I hear some cry) Here started my two year journey not knowing what lay ahead, suffice to say Cardington, Padgate Hereford and 16 MU Stafford, was to be my lot. BTW, our intake left Cardington en route for Padgate from the RAF’s own station within the confines of Cardington camp. It would be so inviting to just keep reminiscing but I’ve already catalogued my two years in the RAF elsewhere on the ‘Net. Suffice to say at 16 MU Stafford, which was a huge complex spreading for miles around, RAF transport played a key role for the transporting of personnel to their place of work. Bedford three tonners was our mode of vehicle plying back and forth in all directions. The ubiquitous covered Bedford wagon were a familiar site, I remember one particular journey one evening at the finish of work of being picked up in an absolute pea soup of a 50’s fog. Hanging on to that rope strap like grim death. The aristocrat of the MT fleet as already mentioned was the sumptuous Standard Vanguard, oh how I used to lust for just a ride in one, alas I didn’t have a drivers licence at that time. Imagine my joy when on one journey hitch-hiking home, a spanking new Vanguard stopped to give me a lift, at one stage of the journey (Bristol-Devon) the driver asked if I would relieve him to Exeter. I was pained to tell him I had no licence. As I write, I have to pinch myself when recalling those times, did they really happen? I suppose most on this thread are already aware that a simple Google search will reveal hundreds of national serviceman’s tales. Just type, RAF National Service stories. Hope I don’t get told off for being off topic.
Mr Anon
14/11/13 – 11:38
I apologise for the anonymity of the immediate above comment for it was not my intention, but when I clicked on ‘Submit Comment’ I somehow thought my comment would reappear for preview editing. I was taken aback when the screen cleared, I thought my work had disappeared into the ether as so often is the case. Later,I was rather astonished to see my post had been published – for which I thank you. I lived in Devon at the time of the above memories, later moving to the midlands where I have remained to this day. In fact I’m only a stones throw from Stafford where I served most of my national service. Now and again I still go over to Stafford on a pilgrimage, in fact only recently, on family business, I diverted to look up the site (16MU was spread out into several sites some miles apart) where I spent some of my time, I pulled up only to find the site under lock and key and seemingly abandoned but intact, I stared hard and long at the guardroom where we had to do piquet duty armed with a baton. I well remember one patrol at 4.00am in below freezing temperature, a cloak of frost cloying to our greatcoats – roll on demob! As for the rest of the site (of what I could see) it was still very recognisable. To the left of the guardroom is the tarmacked area where we assembled for inspection before commencing work each day, I got nabbed on a charge of ‘get yer ‘air cut, take that man’s name sergeant. My sentence of three day confined to barracks included a lost weekend. Grrr! I digress, I’m pinching myself again. I feel a reminiscence coming on, I’d better stop here.
Ian
14/11/13 – 13:37
I did my post-graduate teaching year at Padgate College – on the site of RAF Padgate. For a year my regular transport included four car DMUs from Manchester to Liverpool (via Warrington) with Albion 0900 engines and SELNEC (ex Leigh Corporation) East Lancs/Renowns on the Warrington to Leigh (via Padgate/Fearnhead) service. [Apart from the modern central buildings and halls of residence, the college made much use of the ex RAF buildings for teaching space.] It was also said that part of the nearby M62 was laid along the track of a runway.
David Oldfield
14/11/13 – 16:48
I hate to disillusion you, David, but the M62 story is an urban myth! The motorway does cross the site of the former RAF Burtonwood, at a similar angle to that followed by the old main runway, but only similar, with its path crossing the runway at a shallow angle to the west of its centre point. Burtonwood was chosen for closure by the USAF because of mining subsidence problems that were making the runway increasingly difficult to maintain to Ministry standards. After its closure in 1960/61 the runway remained in place (albeit unusable) until the motorway project started. The runway was then removed and the scrap concrete used to stabilise the ground along the intended track of the M62. I suspect that’s where the myth came from. Interestingly (although still well off topic!) a similar inaccurate story is told about the old RN Air Station at Stretton (to the south of Warrington) and the M56 motorway. Yes, I used to be a plane-spotter…
Neville Mercer
15/11/13 – 17:55
To those who were associated in anyway with RAF Padgate. Google Search…. Last Parade AT Padgate 1957. I bade my farewell to RAF Training Camp Padgate in early September 1956, having no inkling whatever the camp was to close within 6 months. Why is when you are young, you assume everything around you is permanent for ever? I think there is something sound in the advice – never go back.
Ian
16/11/13 – 08:38
Did RAF Padgate become the Police Training Centre, Bruche which I attended in 1966 and 1968? Oh the joy of those cross country runs and drill instruction by the former guardsman Sergeant Crompton from Rochdale.
Paragon
16/11/13 – 09:59
Whilst the area around Warrington became heavily militarised from the outbreak of WW2, Bruche was originally built in the early 1940s as a camp for munitions workers from Risley. Handed to the US military instead, it was opened as a Police Training Centre in 1946. Padgate camp was on a different site The “urban myth” about the M62 is widespread but I hadn’t heard the one about the M56 before. However the M62 DOES cover part of the width of the old main runway along a good part of its length, though the evidence that was once there is now covered by Junction 8. Photo proof can be found at www.chroma.to/photos/4052586. During construction of the M62 a number of aviation societies’ members took photos of the work along the line of the runway and these have appeared in various publications. After “closure” by the USAF in 1959 the Burtonwood site was passed back to the UK MOD in 1965. In the interim various uses had been made of the site by the RAF and Air Training Corps – including gliding by yours truly – but the withdrawal in 1966 of France from NATO military support led to the US Army taking over the site as a forward supply depot. This led to visits by US Army helicopters which used to park in front of the control tower. This eventually stopped sometime in the 1980s as they were visible from the M62 and were cited as being a distraction to drivers, the flights then transferring to Liverpool Airport. There were persistent rumours of nuclear shells being stored on the site. What is true is the site had the largest single roof building in Europe as its main warehouse. The site was used by the TA, Emergency Planners and other military units and cadet forces until the 1980s. During the first Gulf War the site was used by the US Army for its intended purpose as a supply depot, playing a major role, particularly in the build up in the autumn of 1990. In June 1994 the site was declared surplus to requirements and after 52 years since the first Americans arrived, the site was closed.
Phil Blinkhorn
16/11/13 – 11:15
Interesting stuff, Phil. My comments about the alignment of the runway not quite matching the alignment of the M62 still stand, however. The urban myth would have us believe that they were identical. I passed the base a couple of times each month in the late 50s/early 60s en route from my home in mid-Cheshire to my gran’s house in St Helens (with a change of bus in Warrington). Depending on where we were meeting her we’d use either Crosville’s 140 via Bold Heath or the St Helens/Ribble Warrington-Southport service. I’ve also seen 1959 quoted as a closure date, but I can show you records of “fixed-wing” USAF movements through the base as late as the end of 1961. Also during 1961 Burtonwood was briefly used as a commercial airport when a dodgy airline called Overseas Aviation began a scheduled service from Prestwick in Ayrshire to Burtonwood and Gatwick using four-engined Canadair C-4 airliners. It lasted for a matter of weeks despite very low fares compared to those of BEA on the Glasgow/Manchester/London corridor. Overseas went broke soon after the service ended. As regards the US military helicopter visitors, the last I’ve seen a record of took place in 1982. Throughout the mid-1960s this was a monthly operation with US top brass arriving at Manchester Airport from West Germany aboard a military variant of the Beech King Air then transferring to a Choctaw or Huskie helicopter (specially positioned from Lakenheath or Mildenhall) for the final few miles to the base. There must have been a cheaper way! I can also remember a yellow-painted Piper J3 Cub being based there at some point in the 1980s, but I can’t find a reference. It was apparently owned by one of the military commanders and took off from one of the old taxiways on an “unlicensed aerodrome” basis. Getting back to the buses, a building on the base was used by preservationists back in the 1970s, forming the nucleus of the collection later assembled as the St Helens Transport Museum. I’m a bit vague on details as I was living in Pennsylvania at the time. Can anyone else enlighten us?
Neville Mercer
16/11/13 – 15:27
Neville, have a look at the photo taken after the motorway was opened which clearly shows the runway paralleling the motorway and the road occupying part of the north side of the runway. The alignment with the northern side of the runway runs towards the runway south edge at a slight angle for around 900 yards before the motorway deviates to the north a tad when it occupies more of the runway space. The Highways Agency and its predecessors have had subsidence problems on the carriageway in the early days even though the trouble spots on the runway were well known and remedial work was implemented before construction. I used the road at least 3 times a week from its opening until 1986 and there was, and still is, evidence of patching and dishing along the stretch. 1959 was the official closure as an in service US Air Force base. T-29/C-131 Samaritans and the odd C-47 did use the runway into the early 1960s though most of the flights after 1959 went into Speke. In addition the US Army helicopter movements, latterly operated by UH-1 Iroquois, ex Manchester eventually moved to Liverpool and my log books show my last sighting in 1982 on the way to a niece’s christening, which means it was a Sunday. In addition I have numerous sightings of HC-47 Chinooks on the ground in the mid 1970s. Of course BOAC ran a weekly London-Manchester-Prestwick-New York Stratocruiser flight in the mid 1960s but runway problems at Ringway meant the flight operated via Burtonwood if the weather was at all less than perfect. The Strat would have fitted in nicely with any C/KC-97s on the ground. The Overseas Aviation (C I) Airways service was not scheduled to stop at Burtonwood and any visit must have been on some form of diversion. The most authoritative version of the airline’s history appears in the 1976 publication British Independent Airlines since 1946 by A C Merton-Jones published by LAAS and the Merseyside Aviation Society. Much is made of the idea of the walk on service, the fact that passenger rights were only held between Prestwick and Manchester and Prestwick and Gatwick and no rights were held for Manchester and Gatwick and vice versa. Manchester was regularly overflown as often the crew outnumbered the passengers. Only 12 flights were flown in total by unpressurised C-4 North Stars, all Canadian registered, between July 31 and August 11 when the service ceased with fewer than 100 passengers carried in total. No mention is made of Burtonwood in the narrative something MAS, especially Ken Ellis, with full access to Burtonwood movements of the time, would surely have picked up on. Also, as Overseas had a fairly intensive inclusive tour operation at Manchester using both the C-4s and ex BOAC Argonauts, it would have made little sense to use Burtonwood with no equipment there and a journey at least twice as long into Manchester. By the end of August the company had ceased flying and it was wound up in October 1961. There was a yellow American registered Cub based there and, back on topic, sometime in the late 1970s/early 1980s a yellow open top double decker could be glimpsed when the gliders were about, presumably somehow connected. If memory serves this was an early Lodekka.
Phil Blinkhorn
17/11/13 – 06:44
Attached is a n/s print of a sister SB 29 AC 78 taken at Aden Oil Refinery on an outing from the local RAF base at Khormaksar. It is in the same digital series as Chris Hebbron’s. Mulliner bodied versions were quite common with the RAF in the Middle East, where I spent my two years at Her Majesty’s pleasure. But it really turned out to be a Cook’s Tour in the end with leave spent in Cyprus and East Africa.
David Allen
17/11/13 – 08:40
Thx for that post, David. Quite a coincidence to take a photo so close to the one I posted. And nice to see one on active service (all side windows open, but not the windscreen, I notice) with folk milling around.
Chris Hebbron
17/11/13 – 09:42
Thanks for the definitive info on this, Phil. It’s been a long time since the events and my memory may have gotten crossed wires. The Overseas machines I saw on their way in and out of Burtonwood must have been either on diversion or doing charter flights in connection with the USAF withdrawal from the base. It’s worth noting that all of Overseas C-4s remained in the basic livery of their previous owners, Trans-Canada Airlines. The fact that they couldn’t afford to repaint them might have given their bankers pause for thought. It was the biggest UK airline collapse until the failure of British Eagle in 1968.
Neville Mercer
17/11/13 – 14:16
It’s most likely Neville, that the C-4s were Manchester diversions as there is no record of any US forces charters in the airline’s history and by the time the C-4s were delivered in the summer of 1961 the “evacuation” of USAF personnel was over and the Army had not really arrived. They may also have carried out crew training as the North Star had some significant differences to the Argonaut which were also in the fleet. The reason the aircraft weren’t painted is that the Air Registration Board issued temporary CofA certificates based on the Canadian Airworthiness certificates until October 1961 to allow the aircraft to be used. Thus the retention of the Canadian registrations. There were many mechanical differences and differences in overhaul requirements as well and these eventually were the straws which broke the camel’s financial back. I well remember being able to read off the registrations of the North Stars under the wings at home in Stockport. I last saw a North Star (RCAF) at the museum in Rockcliffe, Ontario in 2009, awaiting restoration. You might be interested to look at www.forgottenairfields.com/. Scroll down to the 1955 map and look at site A. Look at the runway and taxiway layout. Then scroll down to look at a photo showing site A at Burtonwood, the “M62” and the vestiges of the start of the cross runway and the taxiway. You will see the motorway coincides with the main runway. Further down are two August 1997 photos confirming the motorway pretty much follows the runway alignment.
Phil Blinkhorn
17/11/13 – 16:58
I’m not an aircraft authority at all, but wasn’t it a Canadair “Argonaut” which crashed on a filling station in Stockport in the mid 1960s ?? It had run out of fuel on approach to Ringway – or rather it actually hadn’t but as far as I remember the pilot had made a mistake in the tank switching. It was an awful disaster because it broke in two upon crashing, but didn’t catch fire for a good few minutes and even then didn’t ignite the filling station. Its possible they could all have got out, as those in the smaller front half did, if they hadn’t been too stunned to act quickly I suppose.
Chris Youhill
18/11/13 – 05:20
Chris, it was a British Midland Argonaut. There was a complex cross feed arrangement between the tanks and it had been known for many years that this could lead to errors, and indeed had previously done so without fatal consequences. I have a very close relationship to the disaster. That morning I had organised a hiking trip to Kinder Scout. We used one of Bullock’s Fodens as usual and one of our pick up points was on Hopes Carr at 10.05. We picked up our four passengers and headed out along Wellington Rd South to pick up in Hazel Grove and were bemused to see a large number of ambulances heading to Stockport as we neared Stepping Hill. The aircraft hit Hopes Carr at 10.09. Some of us wouldn’t miss Pick of the Pops so we got news of the crash on transistor radios when we got to Hayfield. As this was years before mobile phones we had to drop our passengers back at Hopes Carr. This was possibly the first TV broadcast air disaster in the UK with Granada broadcasting live. On return that evening the site was swarming with spectators, (estimates say up to 10,000 people visited during the day) overwhelming the Police and was complete with burger vans and ice cream sellers. Amazingly we were able to put our passengers down within 50 yards of the crash site. As to the survivability the AIB’s post mortem reports concluded most of the passengers in the front died of deceleration effects before the fire, though, being tightly held by a shoulder harness, the pilot survived. The passengers in the rear had massive leg and torso crush injuries, some fatal others not, which prevented their escape. A motor cycle policeman was first on the scene and tried to enter the aircraft before the fire took hold. For many years there was a story that his boots had sparked the fire but this was never proved. He and some passers by did manage to extract 12 people alive before the fire took hold. Newspaper reports of the time said the pilot had chosen to put the aircraft down in Hopes Carr as the only spot of green in an urban landscape. This was nonsense as the aircraft had just flown over the vast playing fields and parkland in and surrounding Stockport’s Vernon Park.
A couple more points Chris. It wasn’t a filling station but a repair garage and electricity sub station that were hit with most of the fuselage landing on open ground to the rear of the garage with the tail neatly adjoining the pavement on Hopes Carr, having missed the factory opposite. The fuselage was seemingly not split on landing, rather the pictures of the tail section broken off from the rest of the wreckage was the result of the fire, though the cockpit may have broken before the fire. Many of the reports generated by last year’s 45th anniversary have been the result of distorted memories. Had the split been evident when the first rescuers arrived they could have gained access that way rather than by the over wing exits. As I already had started an interest in aircraft accidents – especially the human factor issues – I visited the site the evening after the crash (Monday) and again later and watched the removal of the tail section. I knew one of the AIB inspectors and he, as everyone involved, was deeply upset by the spectator aspect which reared its ugly head some years later with the BEA Trident crash at Staines.
Phil Blinkhorn
18/11/13 – 09:29
Thank you indeed Phil for that most interesting but very sad account of the disaster. Just goes to show what 45 years can do to the memory of one like me from “Over the Pennines.” I do seem to recall though that the Captain was called Harry Marlowe, but even that may be wrong ?? I wasn’t in the area at the time of this incident, although I regularly did the Manchester Airport Wallace Arnold service from Yorkshire – there was no M 62 at that time and it was an interesting route via Bradford and Huddersfield – a tortuous slog up the A 62 behind all those slow lorries, and then Ashton, Guide Bridge, Bredbury and Romiley (seemingly very refined) and into the Airport along a rural country road. How security has changed nowadays – the public were allowed onto the roofs of the projecting bays to watch aircraft movements and we drivers could use the Crew Buffet near the Apron where we indulged in superb cream coffee alongside Captains and Air Hostesses. My favourite planes at the time were the handsome blue and grey BEA Vanguards, very refined and elegant. The most terrifying take off I ever witnessed from the roof was an Air France Caravelle which seemed to hurtle upwards with impressive power at about 45 degrees, making me think that I was very glad I was not on board and would gladly forego the South of France for a week at New Brighton !! A confession now – although I am pretty interested in aircraft I am utterly terrified of the things and nothing, but nothing, will ever drag me onto one. I am so grateful for the Channel Tunnel as I can now reach Belgium and France from Leeds in well under six hours comfortably, a real boon, and doesn’t break the bank either.
Chris Youhill
18/11/13 – 10:45
Chris, It was Captain Marlow who was totally exonerated. I spent many a day crossing the Pennines in summer and winter for work. The company I worked for thought that my patch, which was the whole of the North of England and parts of Wales and the Midlands, could be adequately covered in an 1100cc Vauxhall Viva and were annoyed when the engine died at 56000 miles after 18 months! No doubt we could exchange some great stories about the old routes across the Pennines. As far as aviation goes I got the bug as a child but was 15 before my first flight courtesy of the ATC. The Vanguard was an interesting aircraft to fly in as it had an distinct vibration which rippled down the cabin in the climb. I did many trips to and from London with BEA for £2.10.6d each way student standby, double the return price on North Western. Today I still fly regularly long and short haul and early next year my wife and I will be off around the world. So far we have booked over 70 hours in the air for the trip and we still have sectors to book in New Zealand – as well as driving from Cairns to Sydney and Los Angeles to Orlando. Both flying and driving are very run of the mill today and, in some ways, not half as challenging as crossing Woodhead in the snow on a January morning, before dawn, with the headlights diminishing as slush hit the glass and having to be in Hull for a 9.00 appointment! I’d like to take this opportunity of thanking Peter and all the other regulars here for their interest and patience when I, and many others, wander miles off topic and when we commit the odd blooper due to either failing memory or misinformation. The manners and patience here are an example to many other interest forums and are to be commended.
Phil Blinkhorn
18/11/13 – 12:15
You’re very welcome, Phil. The vast majority of people who post on this forum are polite, friendly and encouraging (not to mention extremely knowledgeable). They are the sort of people one would be happy to have as a friend in the “real world”. [In fact, I find it sad that we can’t meet – at least occasionally.] Those who don’t fit that profile generally self edit themselves elsewhere. [As someone who believes Christmas begins at mid-night of the 24th Decemeber, can I prematurely wish you all good health and happy posting in the new year, when it arrives (only six weeks).] PS: How many of us, in ignorance, have walked passed each other on New Years’ day each year at Winchester?
David Oldfield
18/11/13 – 17:50
Well David, I did the next best thing last year. I was at the Kingsbridge running day in September 2012, and after travelling out to the village of East Allington on a Bristol L5G, there was a pause for a few minutes before the return trip. I got talking to a couple of enthusiasts of a certain vintage, and with Yorkshire accents. After establishing that they had never heard of old-bus-photos, I enquired whether any of them knew of a chap called Chris Youhill. “Oh we all know Chris…” So there you are, Chris – fame at last!
Stephen Ford
19/11/13 – 05:45
Perhaps we ought to wear OBP badges at Winchester and see how many of us have turned up…..
David Oldfield
19/11/13 – 10:41
David – you and I have met, albeit by prior arrangement of course, at Wisley Airfield on one of the Cobham April days – we had a most enjoyable chat indeed about things automobile and musical. Phil – I’m sure that you needn’t worry about, as you say, “wandering miles off topic” as such postings are always full of evidence of much diligent and fascinating research which we all appreciate and learn from !! Stephen – well how interesting, and I wonder who the two Yorkshire chaps were – although I rather fear that my notoriety rather than fame my have prompted their comments !!
Chris Youhill
19/11/13 – 12:03
I wholeheartedly agree with the last several comments: wearing an OBP badge at events would allow us to put faces to names and to exchange information, and–as a serial off-topic wanderer–I’d like to add my thanks to Peter for so generously tolerating deviation and for running such a good-natured forum.
Ian Thompson
19/11/13 – 13:57
…..and I agree with all of Ian’s last comments…..
David Oldfield
20/11/13 – 05:29
And so do I David – the site is the most commendable and greatly appreciated of Forums (Fori ??) and the amount of work that Peter puts in is staggering !!
Chris Youhill
31/12/13 – 07:12
This is the identical model to the coach I drove (27 AC 58) during my service at RAF College Cranwell in the 50’s. One of the jobs I was given was taking the College band to Scarborough for their annual fortnight gig, which just happened to be my home town.
Robert Robinson
20/02/15 – 07:27
I served at JSATC Hendon 1958-60 as a Movement Control Sapper Royal Engineers – National Service. I did many trips to London Airport/Gatwick in the Vanguards to collect servicemen from overseas who has family troubles at home. I also did a great deal of loading/unloading airport family luggage onto RAF coaches. This SB looks a bit familiar to the ones I was involved with. I want to get a good model of one – EFE or summat. I have a Corgi RAF vanguard and a Oxford RAF mini bus. They go with my many EFE Yarmouth etc buses. Would these SBs have been the only RAF coaches in the 50s?
Bob Randall
20/02/15 – 08:31
Not quite the only coaches in the 1950s Bob, as there were still plenty of RAF Bedford OWB utilities left. I was conveyed, trembling with fear, from Cardington Station to the RAF Camp in one to start my National Service career, and later at the Radar Station at Patrington East Yorkshirewe had one still in daily use – 00AC52.
Chris Youhill
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
13/01/17 – 06:48
I remember these buses as a child (Dad was in the Intelligence Corps). As far as I was concerned, they were school buses which were used to ferry service children to and from school in both Minden and Rheindahlen in the early seventies. From memory, most of them were of the type seen in the Fairford photo but there were quite a few of the I also remember travelling in white painted versions in Cyprus but, for the life of me, cannot think where I might have been going. Possibly a NAAFI run or some such. I do remember that, to us kids, these buses were always “Army tin cans”.
The coach fleets of Northern General Transport and its subsidiaries was pretty much as you would expect from a BET company, usually an AEC, Guy or Leyland chassis, and a mixture of high quality bodies from several different Coachbuilders, so the arrival of these C41F Paxton Embassy II Bedford SB’s in 1963, came as somewhat of a surprise. I’m not suggesting that the SB was a bad vehicle, far from it, the gave many years of loyal service to a multitude of operators, but Bedford’s never played a significant role in the make up of BET group fleets, any that were around had either been bought for a specific purpose or had come in through the back door as the result of a takeover, so your guess is as good as mine as to why two of them came to be at Percy Main? As well as the Wakefields pair, HFT 264/5 – 264/5; I believe Sunderland District also had a some, and I presume all of them would have been either 8’s or 13’s with the Leyland engine, but I’m not aware of any others in the NGT set up. Life expectancy of NGT single deck and D/P vehicles was around 15 years, some of the touring coaches were withdrawn after about 10 years, but many were used for the longer express routes and lasted as long as their service cousins. This wasn’t the case with these Bedford’s. I started at Percy Main in 1967, and if memory serves, they were withdrawn at the end of the 1968 season. As far as ‘coaches’ were concerned, they were the last to carry the Wakefield’s name as all subsequent vehicles were D/P’s, and the name became defunct in 1970. As a footnote, the photo was taken outside The Gibraltar Rock Pub, located at Tynemouth terminus of what was at the time the service 11 to Newcastle, the location is only about 5 miles from Percy Main depot, and to me this photo looks like a publicity shot and the passengers are probably Percy Main office staff.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye
15/05/13 – 09:22
Nice view, Ronnie. Thanks for posting. I know of other operators who used office staff in their publicity photos, so your theory in this case could well be correct.
Pete Davies
15/05/13 – 09:23
Yes, Ronnie – a strange choice of coach for a BET company. However, if they did want some lightweights then there was not much choice at the time, other than Ford Traders. I wonder if they were on lease hire, hence their short life with Wakefields? This scene definitely looks staged. It was a common practice to enrol office staff to act as passengers for publicity shots. I remember one such occasion with Wallace Arnold when we were supposed to be tourists on a Swiss holiday (in the depths of a suburban Leeds country lane). I never saw the resulting pictures. Nobody minded, of course, as it got us out of the office for an hour or two. Mind you, they couldn’t do this today as HSE would object to those two protuberances which could have someone’s eye out! (Sorry, but this was the age of The Likely Lads and Carry On films!)
Paul Haywood
15/05/13 – 10:57
Bedford? Very strange. Why? Because all the quality mainstream operators at that time tended towards the Ford 510E for their minority lightweight purchases – keeping them no longer than three years, often for only one season. [SUT, Yelloway, Wally Arnold, Hebble, Woollen – all ran Fords rather than SBs. SUT only ran SBs from operators who they had taken over.] OK; NGT ran non mainstream vehicles, including Guy Arab LUFs – but Wakefield ran Reliances, instead.
David Oldfield
17/05/13 – 07:17
“Oh, what happened to you? Whatever happened to me?” Well, Rodney Bewes – his voice at least – was the door announcer for the lifts in the last place I worked!
Pete Davies
18/05/13 – 08:15
Notice anything about “Bob’s” accent, Pete? Yorkshire, if not all that broad – Rodney Bewes is from Bingley. I think its called “auto-suggestion”: you’re told the sitcom is about two “likely-lads” from Tyneside – as and long as one of them has a Geordie accent then you simply don’t hear the Yorkshire tones of his partner. The Northern Fleetline/Atlantean-Alexanders (which would it have been?) in the opening titles have gone, are the Scotswood Road flats still standing? The Dunston Rocket, of Tudor Crisps fame (also now gone), has gone. And I’m not even going to mention Manor steps, aerial ropeways, and multi-storey car-parks from a certain cult gangster film. From the mid to late 60s there seemed to be more of an interest in lightweight coaches from certain BET and THC operators. Perhaps this reflected a desire to be able to compete more effectively against independents for private hire business as stage-carriage work declined.
Philip Rushworth
18/05/13 – 16:57
David O – Yelloway was not an operator that ran Fords rather than SBs, the opposite was the case. They bought Fords only in 1961, 3 in total, including subsidiary fleets. They bought SBs each year from 1960 to 1965, excluding 1961, a total of 16.
David Williamson
19/05/13 – 07:18
But my point was that they ran Fords, not that they didn’t run Bedfords…..
David Oldfield
21/05/13 – 14:48
There has recently been some discussion on the SCT61 website about a photo of Wakefield’s Motors Beadle-bodied AEC/Beadle rebuilds 191 and 192 (FT 7791/2). The blind on 192 shows ‘PRIVATE’ with ‘RIPON LEYBURN AND RICHMOND’ in smaller capitals underneath. There has been much speculation as to what this destination was intended for and the North-East based followers of that site are mystified. Eric Bawden has suggested that it might have been used for forces’ leave services but I have no recollection of Wakefield’s doing such work and so I’m not convinced. I wondered if anyone – obviously, I’m particularly thinking of Ronnie Hoye as the Tynemouth/Wakefield’s expert – would know why this particular destination appeared on a Wakefield’s blind. The photograph was taken in 1960 in Whitby so it doesn’t offer any clues.
Alan Hall
22/05/13 – 07:24
Can’t say for certain, Alan. I know a fair bit about T&W but I’m by no means an expert, but my opinion would be that Wakefields coaches all had the longer Northern express route destinations on their blinds, and vehicles with Percy Main crews could often be found being used as duplicates on some of the routes. If memory serves, the Newcastle Liverpool route ran through Ripon, Harrogate and Leeds, but I cant remember any that went via Richmond or Leyburn.
Ronnie Hoye
23/05/13 – 07:54
I’ve been talking to a friend who was at Percy Main when I was, and he too is at a loss as to why Leyburn and Richmond should be on the destination blind. Wakefields had two batches of AEC Beadles, FT 7275/80 – 175/80 and FT 7791/2 – 191/2; 175/80 were FC35F and classified as coaches, whereas 191/2 were FC39F D/P’s, they also had slightly different fronts, the coaches had more bright trim under the windscreen and no number section on the destination layout. The coach blinds carried all Northern express route destinations, but the D/P’s had a shortened version of the stage carriage blind with the express section added.
Ronnie Hoye
27/05/13 – 06:50
Thanks, Ronnie: I appreciate your trouble but it seems that Richmond and Leyburn are mysteries that have us all stumped. Sadly, we’ll probably never know now. I’ve dug out an old timetable from that era (1959, as it happens) which shows the hospital services which were licensed to Northern and Wakefield’s (no other group members), but nothing from as far away as Richmond or Leyburn features. As a matter of interest, the ones from the North Tyneside area (presumably the ones which were operated by Wakefield’s) were North Shields to Prudhoe Hall Colony – what a dreadful name, Wallsend to St George’s Hospital at Morpeth and North Shields to Earl’s House Hospital near Durham. I think that’s my earliest Northern Group timetable but I have others from the ’60s which are stored at my mother’s house. I’ll look them out next time I’m there on the off chance that they may lead us to the solution.
Alan Hall
04/06/13 – 06:49
Ronnie, I’ve now checked the 1960, 1961 and 1962 timetables and there isn’t anything in any of those to indicate why Richmond and Leyburn might have been on Wakefield’s blinds. I wonder if it was simply wishful thinking. You’ll remember that Newcastle’s trolleybus blinds included several places South of the Tyne, such as Dunston, Gateshead and Low Fell, in the hope/expectation that the wires would eventually cross the river as the tram wires had. I suspect that this may have been a similar example of ‘ready in case ever needed’.
Alan Hall
05/06/13 – 10:58
Alan, I have no evidence to back up this theory, but the only thing I can think of is perhaps Northern applied for an additional alternative route for the Leeds service, but this was United territory, and no doubt they would have objected strongly unless it was going to be a shared service.
Ronnie Hoye
30/12/13 – 07:13
Just discovered your site today while searching for pics of the type of coach I drove during my service at R.A.F College Cranwell. Exactly what I was looking for, in fact as my coach was 27AC58. My home town was Scarborough which was very lucky for me as I was given the job of taking the college band to Scarborough for their annual fortnight visit.
Robert Robinson
10/04/15 – 07:27
I have a couple of photos of Wakefields vehicles showing Scarborough as a destination. That would not be a normal destination for a Northern Group Express coach unless it was the practice to hire them to United on Summer Saturdays for their Newcastle-Scarborough service. However, Scarborough was a destination for day tours. On the assumption that Ripon, Leyburn and Richmond was also a day tour, I have visited North Shields library to look for Wakefields Adverts for their tours in the local newspaper, and can confirm that this was indeed a Wakefields day tour.
John Gibson
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
08/03/16 – 05:26
I knew I wasn’t imagining this, SDO had two identical vehicles, 3730 & 3731 UP – 330/1, and Northern had eight Bedford’s with C41F Harrington bodies, PCN 1/8 – 2601/8. I dont know about the rest, but the two for Wakefields were sold on after three years, and went to Hylton Castle Coaches of Sunderland
