Author: admin

Aldershot & District – AEC Reliance – MOR 581 – 543

MOR 581

Aldershot & District Traction Co
1954
AEC Reliance MU3RV
Metro-Cammell B40F

MOR 581 is an AEC Reliance MU3RV. The chassis of this Aldershot & District vehicle dates from 1954, but the body we see (“MCW” in the PSVC listings) was fitted in 1967. The seating is of the B40F layout, and we see it in the Alton Rally on 18 July 2010. One unfortunate feature of the Alton Rally and Fleetwood Tram Sunday is that they often clash and, even with what some of my former colleagues used to call an ‘optimistic’ style of driving, even I can’t manage both in the day!

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

05/12/16 – 09:36

Beautiful! I used to travel on these, and their cousins with the older style of bodywork with an opening window for the driver. One A&D feature on OPO buses was to have just a single seat on the front nearside to allow more room for passengers paying the driver, but at the time I was a regular traveller, these buses were crew-operated. My memories are of the No.19 which turned up on time every weekday morning to take me to Haslemere Station and then onto a train to Waterloo. The railway part of my journey was much less reliable until the elderly pre-war 4-CORs were replaced by 4-CIGs.

David Wragg

06/12/16 – 14:03

Does anyone know if others of the batch were given new bodies, or why this one was treated? Crash damage springs to mind . . .

Pete Davies

06/12/16 – 15:43

Pete,
I seem to recall that there were quite a number of them and one bus magazine, it may have been ‘Passenger Transport’ commented that it was surprising that such a dated style was being adopted. I take their point, but I actually liked this style.

David Wragg

07/12/16 – 06:32

Thank you for that, David.

Pete Davies

07/12/16 – 06:34

According to this 15 of them were re-bodied in ’67 //www.sct61.org.uk/ad267a  
Here is another re-bodied one //www.sct61.org.uk/ad273

John Lomas

07/12/16 – 06:36

MOR 594

In its search for a suitable vehicle of the then new underfloor engined format, Aldershot & District initially bought a Dennis Dominant in 1951. Only three Dominant chassis were ever made, of which two were bodied, the third chassis being dis-assembled after exhibition at the 1950 Earls Court Show. Although Dennis abandoned plans for volume production of the model, there was very little wrong with the Dominant apart from its excessive weight (a characteristic shared by the the contemporary Regal IV and Royal Tiger), and Aldershot & District kept HOU 900 in front line service for fourteen years. In 1953 the company bought a solitary example of the Guy Arab LUF, which it retained in service until 1965, but purchased no more. Then, after sampling a number of different underfloor types, Aldershot & District finally took the plunge in 1954 with the AEC Reliance, twenty five being delivered with rather gawky, high floor and waistline, Strachans Everest C41C bodywork. These were registered MOR 581 to 605, numbered 250 to 274, and were used on the Farnham – London express route, and on excursions and private hire until displaced by the 1963 Park Royal bodied Reliances. These Strachans MU3RV coaches were powered by the small AH 410 engine of 6.754 litres, a direct (though updated) descendant of the A172 “bootlace” wet liner engine of the 1935 Regal II. The “bootlace” engine design became the basis for all the AEC wet liner engines from the 1950s, and therein lay the root of subsequent trouble, for the original “bootlace” became notorious for cylinder liner seal and gasket failures. No. 263, MOR 594 is shown in 1968 on route 3D (Aldershot – Cove, Minley Estate) passing the RAE in Farnborough Road. The inadequate destination blind display seen here was most unusual on A&D in those days, and indicates a degree of crew laziness in the early NBC era that would not have been tolerated in BET times. These machines were quite pleasant to drive, though given to a somewhat wallowy standard of ride, but the performance with the small AH410 engine was less than sparkling. In 1965, fifteen of these coaches were selected for rebodying with the then A&D standard Weymann saloon design, but the Weymann factory was closing down, and the order was undertaken by Metro-Cammell. The engineering standards on Aldershot & District were extremely high, and no doubt all of the initial 25 Reliances could have been so rebodied if required. Indeed, the remaining Strachans vehicles, of which No. 263 shown was one, continued in service for several more years.

390 AOU

After experience with the initial Strachans bodied coaches, from 1957 Aldershot & District adopted the AH 470 engined Reliance as its standard saloon type with Weymann B41F (OMO) or B43F bodies. The initial buses had opening windscreens for the driver, but the 1960 and subsequent batches incorporated fixed windscreens which had just become legal. No.390, 390 AOU was a 2MU3RV vehicle of 1961, and representative of the final style of the Weymann A&D saloon. It is seen in Queens Avenue, the technically military road that links Farnborough North Camp with Aldershot, and is wearing the revised saloon livery of 1967 with the darker green on the lower panels. It is also carrying the retrograde “simplified” fleetname style that appeared in that same year. The Metro-Cammell bodies on MOR 581 above and some new 1966/67 Reliances differed from the Weymann version in several respects – the offside emergency exit was placed at the rear instead of the centre, the front screens lacked the metal surround, and the lower front panel incorporated a small grille.

Roger Cox

07/12/16 – 06:37

This was from a batch of twenty-five 250-274, MOR 581-605 new in 1954/5 with Strachans C41C bodies.
In 1965 250/2/4-7/9-62/4/9/70/2/3 were delicensed and the bodies removed. The chassis were rebuilt and were rebodied with MCW B40F bodies, renumbered 543-557 respectively, and entered service in 1967. They were to the same design as 283-312, RCG 601-630, which had been new in 1957.
Prior to 1966 bodies were built by Weymann at Addlestone and by Metro-Cammell in Birmingham but after the Weymann works closed at the end of 1965 all subsequent bodies were built by Metro-Cammell-Weymann.

John Kaye

07/12/16 – 13:33

Many thanks for your further thoughts on the history of this vehicle and her sisters.

Pete Davies

07/12/16 – 16:34

I can remember seeing the AEC Reliance chassis parked in the Guildford garage all painted in bright silver paint, I assume they were waiting to be sent for rebodying. I was a passenger on an A & D Loline 111 service 20 travelling from Aldershot to Woodbridge road Guildford to attend technical college.

John Shrubb

10/12/16 – 17:28

I’ve been thinking (I do occasionally!) and I suspect that the fifteen Strachans Reliances selected for rebodying might well have been chosen on the basis of body condition, the better ones being retained as they were. Certainly those that kept their Strachans C41C bodies continued in service for several years after 1965.

Roger Cox

Anderton – AEC Reliance – OWT 940


Copyright John C Gillham

Anderton (Keighley)
1955
AEC Reliance MU3RV
Burlingham Seagull C41F

For me the classic Burlingham Seagull remains as stylish and attractive as it did when I saw my first Sheffield United Tours examples. This one, Reliance MU3RV294, Burlingham 5855, was new to Anderton of Keighley in January 1955 and was snapped by John C Gillham at the Clacton Coach Rally.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Les Dickinson

24/04/17 – 07:20

The design and appearance of the Seagull can, I think, be justifiably be described as immortal.

Chris Youhill

25/04/17 – 07:21

Shaped a bit like a teardrop… but more refined….

Mike..009

27/04/17 – 14:56

OWT 940 was sold to Victoria Coaches of Wakefield and was exported to Malta in 1970, probably as a chassis only.
It received a coach body built by Debono and was in the coach fleet as registration number 2573 by December 1970, later being re-registered to Y-0871.
By July 1987 it had been downgraded to bus work as Y-0767 as B45F, losing its glass rooflights and gaining green livery.
It later received yellow bus livery and was re-registered to FBY 767.
In this form it worked until 2011, when the interesting Malta Bus fleet was swept away in the name of progress.
Thus it worked hard until it was 56 years old, a tribute to AEC.

Dave Farrier

28/04/17 – 17:16

At one time the Maltese route bus vehicles only worked on alternate days, so perhaps this lovely old lady has a semi-retirement in the sun.

David Wragg

04/05/17 – 06:40

I was very interested to see the photo of the Anderton’s AEC. I grew up in Anderton’s home town (Keighley) and they were a well-known local coach business, always smartly turned out in pale blue and cream. I obviously wasn’t observant enough, because I don’t recall this vehicle. Anderton’s seemed to trade in at regular intervals, usually purchasing lighter modern coaches such as the Vega, etc. Sadly they sold out, I think in the early 80s, to Bowen’s and they were closed down.

David Rhodes

Hebble – AEC Reliance – BJX 134C – 134

Hebble - AEC Reliance - BJX 134C - 134

Hebble Motor Services
1965
AEC Reliance 2MU4RA
Park Royal DP39F

Photographed late on a summer day in 1966 at Stump Cross, a location very well known to our regular contributor and esteemed authority on Halifax matters, John Stringer, is AEC Reliance BJX 134C, No.134 in the fleet of Hebble Motor Services. The bodywork is by Park Royal, seated as DP39F, and the vehicle is seen in typically rugged terrain en route from Halifax to Cleckheaton. Those days of pre political correctness are reflected in the legend “One Man Operation” displayed in the destination box. This Reliance was the last of a batch of four, BJX 131-134, Nos. 131-134 delivered to Hebble in July/August 1965. The National Bus company took control of the BET bus empire in 1968, and, in the following year, management of Hebble (together with Yorkshire Woollen) passed to West Riding at Wakefield. The subsequent reallocation of services between these companies then saw Hebble expand to twice its BET size, but in 1971 the situation was turned entirely on its head when (to the delight of a certain Geoffrey Hilditch) NBC passed the Hebble business over to the Halifax Joint Omnibus Committee. Of the four Reliances 131-134 (renumbered 666-669 by Hebble in 1970) only the last (shown pictured above) entered the Halifax JOC fleet as No.320 in March 1971, when the bodywork configuration had become B43F, though whether this was inherited as such or was a JOC conversion I know not. I am sure our OBP experts will supply the answer. The 2MU4RA version of the Reliance had the AH470 engine coupled with the Thornycroft six speed constant mesh gearbox which demanded proper respect in use (I drove the Aldershot & District examples so I speak from experience). As far as I can establish, 320 would then have been the only constant mesh gearbox bus in the Halifax fleet since the expulsion of the last Nimbus, a type that was almost (I loved ‘em and drove them at every opportunity) universally detested by the driving staff. I bet 320 was not popular to say the least.
A truly comprehensive and lively discussion about the final years of the Hebble company may be found on OBP at this link.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

26/06/17 – 07:24

Interesting looking lorry passing in the opposite direction. The square stepped wheel arch reminds me of a Guy Warrior. Can anybody identify it?

David Hargraves

27/06/17 – 07:04

Thank’s Roger, I’ve never been esteemed before !
The problems you suggest may have occurred at Halifax with the arrival of 134 (latterly 669 under the YWD-based scheme) into a synchromesh and semi-automatic fleet did not happen.
Towards the end of 134’s time with Hebble one of their Plaxton Panorama-bodied Reliance coaches with synchromesh gearbox (either 20 or 21) suffered a gearbox failure in the Cheltenham area whilst working an outbound journey on the South West Clipper. A changeover (presumably by Black & White) was provided – not exactly a unique occurrence – to continue the rest of the journey to Paignton but no assistance was forthcoming regarding a repair (probably because it was happening too often). Consequently a Hebble mechanic and apprentice were instructed to grab the first Reliance that returned to depot, remove its gearbox, shoot off down to Cheltenham with it in the service van (a very hard worked vehicle) and swap the boxes over in time for their coach to change over the loaned coach on its way back. They then returned to Halifax with the defective box and it was duly ‘repaired’ (probably after a fashion). Then being in a constant state of vehicle shortage there was no time to bother getting the right boxes back into the right vehicles, so 134 received the repaired synchromesh box and retained it for the rest of its days, the coach retaining the constant mesh one.

0025037cejR1OBP[2]

As a result BJX 134C arrived at Halifax JOC (as 320) thus equipped, being no different to their other Reliances. Due to the strange Hebble trim layout it received a most unusual interpretation of the Halifax DP livery, starting out like a DP at the front and ending up in service bus livery at the rear. Here it is seen entering St. James Road prior to turning into the Cross Field Bus Station, Halifax sometime in late 1971. Please forgive the dreadfully out-of-focus shot but it is the only one I ever took of it in this livery.

0034022cejR1OBP[2]

Not long afterwards it was refurbished as a service bus with bus seating, its racks and luggage boot removed and repainted into normal bus livery. It passed into WYPTE ownership in 1974 becoming 3320 but never received PTE livery, being sold for scrap soon afterwards. This second photo shows it passing along Towngate, Northowram in the Spring of 1973.

John Stringer

27/06/17 – 09:10

Thanks, John. I knew that you would come up with the comprehensive answers – an esteemed authority indeed. You confirm that the conversion to bus seating was a Halifax exercise. Circumstances certainly acted in the favour of this vehicle where the gearbox was concerned. I suppose that is why only this one out of of the batch of four was accepted by GGH. Had it retained its original Thornycroft box in Halifax service I am sure that the gear changes would have been heard right across the West Riding – anything with a crash/constant mesh box was an anathema to the Halifax drivers.

wagon

Turning to David’s enquiry, I can see the resemblance to the Guy front end, but nothing I can find matches it exactly. Pantechnicons were often built closely to operators’ requirements so you could well be right. I will send a closer view if the front end to Peter to help with identification.

Roger Cox

05/07/17 – 06:25

Could the body on the pantechnicon be by Marsden/Vanplan.

Stephen Bloomfield

15/11/19 – 07:29

The lorry looks very much like one of George Pickersgills Removals, Harold Long from Henry Long Transport Bradford owned them for a while.

Mr Anon

David MacBrayne – AEC Reliance – LUS 524E – 150

David MacBrayne - AEC Reliance - LUS 524E - 150

David MacBrayne Ltd.
1967
AEC Reliance 2U3RA
Willowbrook DP49F

LUS 524E is a 1967 AEC Reliance 590 2U3RA with Willowbrook DP49F body. It was new to the legendary Scottish operator, David MacBrayne, fleet number 150. When MacBraynes ceased operation of bus services, it passed to Highland Omnibuses, being painted in that operator’s superb blue and red livery. Although the body is to the standard BET group design, it is unusual in having a one piece inward opening door, as was normal on contemporary coaches. This vehicle is preserved and is seen here at Brough, taking part in the 2016 Kirkby Stephen Running Day.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Don McKeown

24/10/17 – 06:44

This vehicle appeared briefly in Northern Ireland as a “swap” for former Scottish Omnibuses SWS 671 which returned to Scotland. LUS resided with a church group around Gilnahirk in Belfast before returning to the mainland for preservation.

Bill Headley

WYPTE – AEC Reliance – Pennine – ECP 950D – 250

WYPTE - AEC Reliance - Pennine - ECP 950D - 250

WYPTE (Calderdale)
1966
AEC Reliance 6MU3RA
Pennine B39F

Having suffered a number of Albion Nimbuses whilst in his previous post at Great Yarmouth, Geoffrey Hilditch arrived as GM at Halifax only to find that his predecessor there had bequeathed him a batch of ten more, only recently delivered. Bought originally with the intention of operating out-of-town feeder services to and from the hilltop villages linking with double deckers on the main valley roads, the plan never really came to fruition and the Nimbuses found themselves operating through services from town to these places, as well as substituting for heavier duty single deckers on more local services. In these circumstances rather too much was perhaps expected of them and they soon began to give problems, and were generally unpopular with drivers (except Roger Cox !).
Hilditch was not impressed and within two years he began to sell them off, but there was still considered to be a need for some shorter and narrower than standard single deckers to negotiate the narrow lanes and tight reversing points. He chose to repeat what he had done at Great Yarmouth and ordered some AEC Reliances with Pennine bodywork of reduced dimensions. Seven arrived for the JOC fleet in 1966 – 249-255 (ECP 949-955D) – based on the 505-engined 6MU3RA chassis. Bodies by the Seddon subsidiary Pennine Coachcraft seated 39, 252 having seats with headrests (removed from the two Nimbuses that had been fitted with them previously). 249 was even exhibited at the Commercial Vehicle Show at Earls Court in that year.
They proved to be very useful on the more rural routes and were regular performers on the Heptonstall, Midgley, Booth and Mill Bank services. All passed to WYPTE Calderdale District in 1974 and were withdrawn in 1979/80. 250 was withdrawn on 31 July 1979 and sold at Central Motor Auctions the following month to Askin’s, the Carlton breaker. 251 escaped the breaker to operate for Everton Coaches of Droitwich for a while and was the subject of a sadly failed preservation attempt. 252 was exported to Malta, where it operated in a non-PSV capacity for a number of years.
Here 250 is pictured in WYPTE days (1975) still in Halifax livery as it rests in Rawson Street, Halifax whilst its driver has his mealbreak in the Powell Street canteen, which was down a passageway behind Harvey’s department store on the left.

Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer

10/11/17 – 06:53

Nice interesting buses-always seemed in a hurry and went fast!

Stuart Emmett

10/11/17 – 06:54

I recently paid a return visit to the Halifax area to see relatives who live high above Mytholmroyd on the way up to Pecket Well. After living in the flat lands around Peterborough for over 12 years I found those moorland roads, hills and twists quite challenging even in my humble Vauxhall Zafira. I have nothing but admiration for the men and machines who piloted those orange and green buses into that hinterland. Even these short and narrow Reliances must have been a tight squeeze but unlike the Nimbuses they ousted they would at least have had some power.

Philip Halstead

12/11/17 – 07:17

I remember in the 70’s when I looked after the police radio stations. I was going to one near Blackshaw Head on a quite snowy day when one of these could not make it up a steep climb and had to assist in guiding the driver reversing for almost a 1/2 mile before he could turn round. I then had to walk back to where I had left my Land Rover.

Brian Lunn

12/11/17 – 07:18

That’s an interesting point, Philip. Some may know better than me, but the Halifax/ Heptonstall bus has to use a turning circle to approach the steep hill up to the village. At the top the road narrows through the village and is cobbled, becoming for a bus a single width. Every sort of bus seems to have been used, though, and the whole thing certainly requires skill.

Joe

12/11/17 – 07:19

Philip, I now live some 10 miles down the A1 where the Black Fens abut the rolling hills of West Hunts, and I agree that there could be no greater contrast with the dramatic Calderdale skyline than the the billiard table top topography of South Holland lying to the north of Peterborough. These Pennine bodied Reliances began to appear during my last months with HPTD in the latter part of 1966, but, being earmarked for (what was then called) OMO, they were not driven by we humble office employees who covered only crew duties. On the subject of the Nimbuses (yes, John, I loved ’em) my acquaintance with them was always on the 46 route to Heptonstall, which, because of the unbelievably constricted terminal reversing point, colloquially known as “The Rathole” – even the mirrors had to be flattened against the bus sides – these little machines carried a conductor. Before the coming of the Nimbuses, I believe that the route was previously operated with Regals, and I commend those drivers struggling over the years to turn round these bigger vehicles at the Rathole. However, I can vouch that the Nimbus did not lack performance when in good order, and could scamper up the steep Heptonstall Road from Hebden Bridge every bit as effectively as the Leopards that initially superseded them when the 46 was mercifully extended onwards beyond the Rathole to follow a circular terminal working round Heptonstall – why this route could not have been adopted long before I cannot imagine, unless there was some Road Service Licence difficulty. Having resolved the terminal problem, it was logical that the 46 would become a driver only operation, but, in my day, the Booth and Midgely services, which ran common with the 46 as far as Luddenden Foot, were PD2 crew runs. It would seem that they, too, soon became OMO workings with the then new Reliances. The Nimbus certainly had mechanical weaknesses, but so did the AH505 engine in the Reliance, so troubles were certainly not over. I have long thought that the fine Reliance chassis (much superior to the Leopard) should have been fitted with the superb Dennis O6 engine – we are all allowed to dream.

Roger Cox

12/11/17 – 09:40

An example of Heptonstall village bus “squeeze” as Joe mentioned. //www.sct61.org.uk/hx266

John Lomas

21/11/17 – 07:18

Ah, the short Pennine Reliances. What do I remember? Clutch problems, snatching brakes, skidding in wet weather, the inevitable cold heaters and demisters, head gaskets (yes even on the AH505 engine). I have to bow to Roger and John who were there before me that the Nimbus was actually worse!!!!

Ian Wild

24/11/17 – 07:27

Provided all was working well I always much preferred the 505 Reliance to the heavy, clunky L1/L2 Leopards, though of course I wasn’t involved with having to maintain them. Cold heaters and demisters were a feature of most of the buses that I remember driving throughout my career (except during the summer months when some suddenly seemed to blow hot !). The dimensions of these reduced Reliances rendered them just right for the roads they were intended for.
However, I would completely agree with Ian that Reliance brakes could be unpredictably and frighteningly snatchy, and that these short ones were the worst of all. Many of the routes they were used on were tightly timed and yet involved negotiating miles of narrow, steeply graded and winding country lanes with blind bends and shiny worn surfaces, along which numerous farm tractors with muddy tyres and leaking muck spreaders would have passed, and to which herds of cows would have added their messy contribution. All it needed then was for it to rain and you had a recipe for disaster. You had to be extremely careful, yet the running times often didn’t exactly encourage this.
It always seemed to me that when a standard chassis had bits lopped off it to make it shorter and narrower it always upset the balance of things. Even worse than these Reliances were some Bristol LHS6L’s that WYPTE graced us with for a while. The LH was designed primarily as a 32ft x 8ft vehicle and may well have been okay in that form (can’t say – I never drove one). The LHS was a shorter version, maybe around 27ft 6in and sometimes 7ft 6in wide, but ours were as short and narrow as it was possible to make them, with seemingly just enough wheelbase to allow for the engine and transmission to fit, the front and rear overhangs cut down as far as they could go, and with small wheels. This resulted in a 24ft x 7ft 6in, 27-seater roller skate of a bus yet which had the same powerful 0400 engine, gearbox and braking system of the full sized version – seemingly unmodified – and all its weight distribution completely messed up. Those things really were the most fearsome buses I’ve ever driven – too much power for their own good, rear wheelspin, bouncing up and down on the back end and the brakes locking up, skidding and sliding. Terrible things.

John Stringer

Leeds City Transport – AEC Reliance – KUA 46 – 46

Leeds City Transport - AEC Reliance - KUA 46 - 46

Leeds City Transport
1964
AEC Reliance 2MU2RA
Roe B41D

Seen in April 1970 is Leeds City Transport No. 46, 46 KUA, an AEC Reliance 2MU2RA with Roe B41D bodywork, one of four, Nos. 44 – 47, 44 – 47 KUA delivered in 1964. These followed an earlier order for six similar vehicles in 1962, Nos 39 – 43, 839 – 843 CUM. I understand that all these Reliances had quite a short life of around 8 years or so with Leeds.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

03/12/18 – 07:13

I can’t comment on the others, but 45 and 47 went to Aberdeen. I have a view of each from the late Arnold Richardson’s collection.

Pete Davies

04/12/18 – 06:33

All four were new in August 1964 and withdrawn in December 1970.
44 and 45 went to Aberdeen on 30th June 1971, being followed on 7th July by 46 and 47, retaining the same fleet numbers.

John Kaye

05/12/18 – 07:46

Oh dear, that destination box doesn’t look comfortable, balanced up there.

Petras409

11/12/18 – 07:43

These Reliances really came too late. They were in effect an update of the standee single deckers 29-38, to the same 30ft. length when 36 ft. had become available. Getting 41 seats into the shorter length, with dual doors meant they had poor access/exit and tight seat spacing. As with many AECs of that design they were not comfortable, or liked by passengers or drivers. Just two years later, the first 36 ft. Swifts with wider doors, easier steps and 48 better spaced seats arrived. They may not have been great, but they were better. In a year or so there were 50 Swifts in operation and 39 to 46 were consigned to relief work and then sale.

Andy Buckland

13/12/18 – 05:53

Several of these also ended up in Scotland with Greyhound of Arbroath.

Chris Hough

07/01/19 – 07:12

I’ve sometimes wondered what was so wrong with the AEC Swift and the Leyland Panther that caused many operators to not get on with them, prematurely retire them (especially London’s AECs) and overall have bad experiences, while the conceptually similar Bristol RE seems to have commonly led a full life with its original operators.
It’s not as if they did not incorporate standard components in use elsewhere.

Bill

12/01/19 – 08:23

In the absence of a more comprehensive reply from someone who knows more, I will say that one of the differences between Bristol’s approach and the Panther/Swift approach was the position of the driveline and its effect on weight distribution. In the Panther and Swift the engine and gearbox were at the extreme rear of the overhang, whereas the RE had the engine further forward, with the gearbox in front of the rear axle.

Peter Williamson

16/01/19 – 07:27

The Panther also had a much weaker frame causing bending and breaking. Even in preservation I can think of a couple where following you can see the curve.

Roger Burdett

17/01/19 – 07:09

The radiator for the Swift was not at the front, as in the Panther or the RE, but tucked away behind a panel in the bodywork behind the offside back wheels.
Although this arrangement probably insured against air locks in the cooling system, it restricted the flow of cooling air over the surface of the radiator and could result in the engine overheating.

John B

18/01/19 – 06:30

My Foden which has the Rad in the same position still airlocks so concur John B comment.

Roger Burdett

18/01/19 – 06:32

In the Bristol RE the drive went forward from the engine to the gearbox located in front of the rear axle, and then back again to the differential. This gave a prop shaft of decent length to accommodate the suspension travel of the rear axle, something that competitive designs (the worst being the Seddon RU) lacked. Contrary to popular belief, the RE did not pioneer this layout. The Rutland Clipper of 1954 used a similar arrangement.

Roger Cox

Aldershot & District – AEC Reliance – VCG 596H -596

VCG 596H

Aldershot & District Traction Co
1970
AEC Reliance 6U3ZR
Duple C49F

Having vacillated for some time before settling upon an underfloor engined saloon chassis, even buying some full fronted Dennis Lancet III coaches in 1953, Aldershot & District finally chose the AEC Reliance as its standard single decker, and stayed with this model for its coach requirements right up to its subjugation to Thames Valley (mis)management from January 1972 under the new guise of Alder Valley. Seen here in The Grove alongside Aldershot Bus Station is No.596, VCG 596H, the first of four 6U3ZR Reliances supplied in 1970 with Duple C49F coachwork sporting the (to my eye) hideous Detroit “inspired” front grille that spoilt many of the later Duple designs. Aldershot & District bought two more Reliances of the 6U3ZR specification in 1971, but these had the aesthetically more pleasing Plaxton C49F coachwork. VCG 596 passed to Alder Valley from 1 January 1972 as No. 49.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

22/12/18 – 06:37

I have to say that I like this coach! Functional, neat without meaningless frippery: where is the Detroit? Burlingham, Whitson, Yeates, other Duple perhaps…this is more Turin!

Joe

22/12/18 – 12:11

Joe – the “Detroit”-inspired part is the full-width chromed grille, which does look rather “overpowering” to my eyes. The chromed strip that runs the length of the body and at across the front at headlight level is also an excessive amount of polished metal.
In a monochrome photo, and wearing a livery with various colours, it doesn’t look so bad, but with a different “livery”, and in colour, the effect is pretty dire:- https://thetransportlibrary.co.uk/index.php
I see from other photos that Southdown had the sense to specify their RUF-H batch of Leopards with the same body without the chromed strip on the sides, but they were stuck with the grille.
The polished metal soon went out of fashion, but the advent of the Dominant with curved side windows made the Commander look very old-fashioned in just a couple of years.

Nigel Frampton

26/01/19 – 06:48

The 36ft long AEC Reliance with the AH691 engine & the later AH760 power unit was a real drivers coach & the best premium weight coach on the market until the Volvo B58 surpassed it. With a Reliance the only thing to watch is they tended to run a bit hot on sustained motorway journeys. My boss instructed his drivers to keep an eye on the temperature gauge & if it starts to climb, drop a gear & keep it down to 55 to 60 MPH while it drops. Good advice, never had overheating on later Reliances.
Leyland Leopard, very good, but I think the chassis was more suited to a service bus body rather than a premium coach. As a coach, the gear ratios were all wrong on a semi auto Leopard, but in terms of reliability & strength of the chassis they were unsurpassed.

Andrew Spriggs

26/01/19 – 09:59

Not sure about the overheating: if you had a Sunbeam Imp with the usual gasket problem, going faster improved the air cooling effect!

Joe

06/03/19 – 07:17

I think the overheating problems associated with the Reliance were mainly confined to the wet lined AH470 engine, later replaced by the more successful, dry lined AH505.
The least said about the Hillman Imp, especially the very early examples, probably the better.

John B

26/09/19 – 05:53

I have always seen what you refer to as the Detroit-style grille (I have to agree with Joe that it is more Turin than Detroit) as a clean and elegant successor to the grimace-like grille applied to later Bella-series Duple bodies, itself a massively disappointing successor to the original Bella grille which to my mind was a natural update to the earlier butterfly design.

John Kemplen

West Riding – AEC Reliance – THL 921 – 921

West Riding - AEC Reliance - THL 921 - 921

West Riding Automobile
1961
AEC Reliance 2MU3RV
Roe B41D

In 1956 West Riding turned to the AEC Reliance for its limited bus saloon requirements, taking twelve with Roe B44F bodies characterised by a “droopy” lower line to the windscreen. www.old-bus-photos.co.uk/
The Reliance then became the choice for the coach fleet with Roe C41C bodies, and in 1961 twelve of the 2MU3RV chassis type arrived carrying Roe B41D bodywork of which THL 921, fleet number 921 is an example. No more Reliances were purchased before West Riding sold out to the National Bus Company in 1967. This picture was taken in April 1970 before the corporate dead hand of Freddie Wood fell in 1972, after which the poppy red livery was inflicted upon West Riding.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

18/05/20 – 06:38

A stylish yet functional design enhanced by a smart livery. More attractive than the standard (Alexander in the cases of PMT and Trent) BET version of the time.

Ian Wild

17/06/20 – 07:19

These dual bodied Roe bodied Reliance saloons felt very solid indeed. They lasted until 1973 when they were ousted by new Leyland Nationals. None of the batch was repainted into National Bus Company red, and these along with the elderly Guy ArabIV of 1957 vintage stood out from the mainly repainted fleet by early 1973. They were probably the last traditional green single deckers in service.

MarkyB

18/06/20 – 06:45

I was recounting, only last week, to a friend retired from the industry that C H Roe were among the coachbuilding greats and, against a general trend and tide, retained a composite structure which produced high quality bodies of a generally attractive appearance; robust, well built and well finished. These, and the traditional deckers, were among the best bodies available (in every sense). Following in Crossley’s footsteps, the introduction of PRV frames (particular on the Atlantean and similar bodies on various front engined chassis) brought the nadir of Roe bodywork. They were ugly in the extreme and time revealed them also to be rot boxes. They did solve these problems – but not in the OBP era.

David Oldfield

03/05/21 – 07:19

A snippet of information for fans of the AEC Reliance. A 1961 AEC Reliance (WKG 287, the last of a sequence number-plated WKG 276-287) was still in daily service with Henley’s of Abertillery, Wales in the 1990s, making it the oldest service vehicle still in daily use on a public route.

Julian Meek

Safeguard – AEC Reliance – 5389 PL

5389 PL

Safeguard Coaches (Guildford)
1962
AEC Reliance 2MU3RV
Willowbrook B45F

In October 1962, AEC Reliance 200 APB (Safeguard – AEC Reliance – 200 APB) was despatched to Safeway of South Pertherton, Somerset, and replaced by Willowbrook B45F bodied Reliance 5389 PL. The firm still runs a bidirectional circular service in Guildford which is a development of the Westborough service on which 5389 PL is seen operating in 1967.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

31/10/22 – 07:32

200 APB returned to Safeguard and has become their signature preserved bus which they roll out for service on significant occasions.

John Lomas

East Yorkshire – AEC Regent V – VKH 43 – 643

East Yorkshire - AEC Regent V - VKH 43 - 643

East Yorkshire Motor Services
1956
AEC Regent V
Willowbrook HBB56R

Notice the roof this shape was unique to East Yorkshire for one reason the Beverly North Bar. This is the sole survivor of the gateways into the town of Beverly the shape of the arch comes to a point requiring the roof of the bus to do the same even so it was still a tight fit.

A full list of Regent V codes can be seen here.

A piece of boring personal reminiscence! (But it shows, perhaps, how times have changed). Because, I think, that sitting for a long period by the window on the upper deck of a ‘Beverly Bar’ double decker could become uncomfortable, East Yorkshire permitted smoking on the lower deck. I’m unaware of any other operator who allowed it.

Roy Burke

It’s strange that the majority of EYMS ‘deckers had the Beverley Bar roof profile, as only a few routes actually passed beneath the bar. I believe that 229, an ex Binnington’s TD2, was the oldest vehicle to have the roof profile, when it was rebodied in 1936. The lowbridge buses were used in the Hornsea area, I think.

Keith Easton

11/03/11 – 16:23

Were these Regents known as ‘Blue bottles’?

Roger Broughton

13/03/11 – 08:09

If memory serves correctly Roger, East Yorkshire’s Leyland Titan PD2/Roe fully-fronted double-decker coaches became known as ‘Bluebottles’ after demotion to bus duties in later life. Originally painted in East Yorkshire’s attractive coach livery of primrose and blue, they were apparently known as ‘Yellow Perils’ when new. On becoming buses they received East Yorkshire’s glorious indigo and primrose livery with white roof – thus becoming ‘Bluebottles’. Whether the entire batch was downgraded, and whether the buses retained their coach seating I do not know, but they certainly looked comfortable and distinctive vehicles in either livery.

Brendan Smith

13/03/11 – 10:31

Brendan, I believe that the PD2 coaches did retain the luxury seating even when demoted, but I can’t honestly remember whether or not the large lower saloon luggage racks were retained – this would mean the seating capacity still being only 50. Certainly some of the batch escaped the indignity of being demoted, although I suppose if they had to be demoted at least it was to an honourable alternative with East Yorkshire, as one was preserved and appeared at rallies in primrose and light blue.
Roy, I’m sure you’re right about “smoking anywhere in the bus” as I have never encountered it elsewhere either. When I had relations in Bridlington I was a frequent traveller from Leeds, and I have to confess to contributing plenty of nicotine to the lower saloons in my misguided days – how I wish for many reasons that I’d never touched a cigarette but that’s another story.

Chris Youhill

14/03/11 – 07:57

Barton Transport certainly allowed smoking on both decks in the early 1970’s but I’m not sure if it was allowed until the end of their operation of double deckers.

Chris Barker

14/03/11 – 19:44

Brendan, I would agree with you on the naming of the PD2/12’s, and only the final eight (576 to 583) MKH 85 – 92. were downgraded to bus work. The seating was altered to FH28/26RD, thus seating 54 passengers, but I am unaware as to whether the coach seats were retained or replaced by bus seats.

Keith Easton

05/07/11 – 05:44

Having been absent from the EY Pages for awhile there’s a whole mass of really good info for me to read -3 pages back Chris mentions Whitby Oliver Furniture and a J5G conversion to Van, Bob Mack I think took a photo of AEC CVY 129 a converted bus. Back in 1911 and again in 1912 Olivers converted two ex London area buses. Maudslay ex Union Jack (London Road Car Co)LC4149 bonnet code R4, Platform Flat carrying a lift off rail container 1911. The second was it is thought an ex GELMO Straker made into Rully demountable top.
re-regd York so orig owner not confirmed. In the early 1920 they ran five Charas convertible to Vans, 1 Maudslay, 2 Guys 2 Karriers. One of their slogans was ‘Are your chairs Uneasy let us repair them’- try that with Bus seats, By the way EYMS operated an Air Service for a short time within the British Isles during the 1930s It departed Hedon Aerodrome.

Ian Gibbs

05/07/11 – 09:12

Ian, your last sentence brings back very happy memories for me (no, I’m not QUITE as old as Amy Johnson but not far off) of Hedon Aerodrome. When I was in the RAF at Patrington in 1955/6 we naturally frequently used the EYMS Hull – Withernsea service and even then the intermediate destination blinds read :-
AERODROME
   HEDON
PATRINGTON
There was a filling station, still in business at that time, called “Aerodrome Garage.” For a little more local flavour, how about the Hull folk’s pronunciation of the seaside resort as “Wither(UN)sea.

Chris Youhill

06/07/11 – 07:28

I think one of the Bluebottles was used by Halifax Corporation as a Driver Trainer. Also 647(VKH 47) was loaned to Yorkshire Woollen and then Hebble Motor Services in 1960 for fuel consumption tests.

Philip Carlton

06/07/11 – 09:20

The bus used by Halifax as a trainer was coach seated MKH 81 which carried the Halifax number 403 There is a photo of the bus in Halifax service on www.sct61.org.uk

Chris Hough

07/07/11 – 06:41

Slightly off topic here, but what’s wrong with us ‘Ull folk saying “Wither’n’sea”? What about Whitefriargate then? For the non Hull folk it’s pronounced whit’fra’gate!! Back on topic, was the Aerodrome the one at Hedon where EYMS operated the Bus-Air service in the 30’s and KHCT ran services to the Hull Speedaway in the post-war years?

Keith Easton

07/07/11 – 12:15

Being brought up proper and speaking proper to boot, I’m, nonetheless, a big believer in preserving local dialect – or Sheffieldish as she is spoke in the old homeland. In Sheffield, there is a select corner of the republic called Beauchief but pronounced by the locals as “Beechiff”. We also share, with Doncaster, a suburb called “Inteck” – but you have to look on the buses for Intake.

David Oldfield

07/07/11 – 12:17

Well since you mention Hull Keith, I have to say I’m not a Hullovarian but I absolutely love the place! The first time I ever visited, I went on the ferry from New Holland and took the bus into town from Corporation Pier. I did go over the bridge soon after it opened but then many years passed before I visited again in 2009. I used to love the old bus station because it was full of atmosphere and character and the delights of the parking ground to the rear but I suppose you have to admit that the new interchange and St. Stephens has enhanced Hull considerably. I would like to ask you this; what was in the massive 5 or 6 story block between the bus station and Ferensway, was it offices? there was a street to the right of it which would have seemed a natural exit for buses but why did they go some distance further along before exiting on to Ferensway, was it by Lombard Street? I wish I’d taken more notice at the time but you never value things till they’ve gone!

Chris Barker

08/07/11 – 06:19

Oh ‘eck Keith, I hope I haven’t caused any offence – such was certainly not the intention – just the opposite in fact. I’ve always been a lover of local dialects and accents, and East Yorkshire and Hull in particular – I was just highlighting the delight of the extra syllable that you good ‘Ull/Spurn folk insert between the “R” and the “N” By way of apology, a pint of Moores and Robsons or Hull Brewery ale is yours when we meet !!

Chris Youhill

09/07/11 – 07:28

Chris Y and EY Aero buffs here is a reminder of ‘old planes’


I was given this picture to copy by an old chap I interviewed years ago with no copyright on the rear. He told me that the Air Ferry was set up to provide businessmen with a quick trip across the Humber I believe it was a charter job for each trip. The date was c1933s tickets were in triplicate coloured copies apparently being Blue Yellow White The Taxi was possibly ex-Richard Sherwoods fleet (only a theory on my part). My informant named the ‘Taxi’ as 6-cylinder Chevrolet Vehicle. So as Sherwood had 8 Chevs, one an LQ type (WF 2441) acquired by EYMS 1933 it is possibly from EYMS ownership. Anyhow EYMS provided the vehicle as transport to the Aerodrome, this photo illustrated the arrival of flight number One I was informed. I think the Aircraft may have been a Percival product.The aircraft code letters are not visible (rather like those annoying bus photos with staff in front of the Plate) so it cannot be precisely identified -or maybe from Aerodrome log books?
Briefly on the subject of R H Sherwood he owned a 1907 ‘National’ Car formerley owned by John J Ferens!

Ian Gibbs

10/07/11 – 07:34

Hi Chris (B), between the bus station and Ferensway, was the ABC Cinema (on the corner) with a branch of Norman Duggleby’s toy shop at the bus station corner – sheer heaven for a youngster in the ‘fifties and ‘sixties! Next to the cinema was the Electricity showrooms, next to which was a car park, but was obviously a bombed site I’m not sure what was originally there. I too spent many happy hours in the Coach Station (that sounds a bit suspect in the 21st Century, but the ‘fifties to ‘seventies were much more innocent days); indeed upon acquiring a copy of Alan Witton’s fleetbook 2 and standing in the Coach Station and Victoria square, I found that I could see 80% of the KHCT bus fleet- happy days. Ironically, being born and bred in ‘Ull, I never did get to go on the New Holland Ferry, indeed you never appreciate what you have until it has gone. As to Lombard street, the KHCT offices and central garage were on the western side of Lombard street, and several bus stand were situated adjacent to the garage/offices. I only remember the rebuilt premises as the garage took a direct hit during the horrific air raid of May, 1941.
Chris (Y) no offence taken, but if you can find a pint of Hull Brewery, then your’e on! On the topic of Hullisms, have you ever heard of Bridleberg, Withernberg and Hornberg at all? This is what we called them when young.
Peter, please accept my apologies as this is totally off topic, just the ramblings of an aging Hullensian bus enthusiast!

Keith Easton

11/07/11 – 07:19

Very happy indeed Keith that no offence was taken – as I explained of course only the opposite was intended. No, I’ve never encountered the “bergs” before but I did often hear (and still do from an ex Hull/LCT chap in Leeds) Patrington pronounces as “Patringumm.” In the aerodrome region I have very fond memories of the prefabs on Hedon Road with enormous numbers reaching 12** etc, The Gaol (from outside I stress) Imperial Typewriters , Humbrol paints. The EYMS Withernsea service, before joining Hedon Road and passing the Aerodrome, was via Holderness Road and Southcoates Lane – I believe this still applies.

Chris Youhill

18/07/11 – 07:28

I chanced upon this forum while looking for pictures of Hedon aerodrome. Mr Easton’s comments on Hull Bus Station reminded me that I too spent a lot of time there in the ’50s and ’60s waiting for buses to Cottingham Road. The stop was opposite Duggleby’s; how many times must I have gazed longingly in their windows! I remember the long rows of bus stands, and used to imagine that buses from the ones at the back went to strange and forbidding places.

Stephen W.

22/08/11 – 11:32

The building in Ferensway contained the Regal cinema and the former Hull Electricity Department offices, later the Yorkshire Electricty Board. The car park and small road (shaped like a D on its side) was not a bomb damaged site – the former buildings were demolished when Frenesway was built in the early thirties.
For a time the “roadway” was used as a KHCT bus terminus – there’s a photo in the Hull Daily Mail of 17 March 2001 showing a bus in the site and another leaving it and turning right into Ferensway.

Malcolm Wells

23/08/11 – 09:51

Hi Malcolm, this comment of yours now clarifies and confirms the location of the terminal points of many Hull Corporation bus services in the early ‘thirties, which I have only come across as “bus stands situated in Ferensway, north of the electricity showrooms”. Sadly I didn’t see the photo in the HDM to which you referred.

Keith Easton

23/08/11 – 14:20

The aeroplane used for the Brough – Waltham (i.e. Grimsby) air ferry was G-ABFR, an example of the very rare Blackburn Segrave twin engined monoplane powered by two 120 h.p. de Havilland Gipsy III engines. It went on to Redhill Flying Club in May 1936. These details come from “British Civil Aircraft since 1919” by A.J. Jackson.

Roger Cox

Roger Cox re East Yorks Air Ferry thank you for taking the time to post the Aircraft info-I have not looked at the Bus Photos site for some weeks so did not find your posting it is appreciated and I have added the note to the print I have it’s marvellous how these sites makes info sharing so helpful.
Whilst on East Yorkshire Fred Sharpe of Hedon had two Albions one rather old chain drive chara that came second hand from a Harrogate Hotel it had been a ferry for hotel Golfers then to Sharpes green colour source Ernie Sharp. The other a half cab Albion came from Bullocks Pontefract (Taylor Body I believe-unconfirmed.) Fred Sharpe and Ernest? Bullock were planning a through service to the East Coast exchanging passengers along the way but it never came to fruition.