Here we have yet another Hanson rebuild, they certainly got there moneys worth from their vehicles. My thanks to the HPTG websites Hanson section for the information regarding this bus. This vehicle was originally a 1948 AEC Regal 9621E321 with a Duple C32F half canopy body with the registration DVH 311 and a fleet number 243. In 1953 it was rebuilt by Plaxtons with a full fronted C33F body and was renumbered 322 in the fleet. The final rebuild to a double decker came about in 1958 with a Roe H37/28R body and renumbered again this time to 350, this bus transferred to Huddersfield Corporation on the 1st of October 1969 when they bought out Hansons bus operations. I am not sure if it actually went into service with Huddersfield and if it did for how long, if you know please leave a comment.
27/04/11 – 07:32
Just a note to point out that the registration of 350 was actually NVH 399 not 394. It is incorrectly listed as 394 on the HPTG site, so I’ll let you off this time! It ran for Huddersfield for a few weeks after the takeover
Eric
Thanks for that Eric it certainly looks like a nine to me I have corrected above.
Peter
29/04/11 – 06:45
350 was lucky to survive to Huddersfield Corporation days. In 1963 during a heavy snowfall it crashed through a wall in rural Helme into a field whilst working the Meltham-Huddersfield service. It ended up on it’s side straddling the wall. Considerable damage must have been caused and probably even more in the recovery proccess. However it was repaired and returned to service. There is a picture of it on it’s side on P43 of P. Cardno and S. Harling’s book Hanson of Huddersfield & Their Neighbours.
Eric
18/06/15 – 16:41
As a Huddersfield resident, these pictures bring back memories of an interesting local operator, who had a great capacity – in the manner often used in Yorkshire – of ‘cobbling together’ older chassis and rebodying them to get extra years of service from them. I rarely travelled on Hansons double deckers, but used to travel daily to school in the late 1960’s on their Regal rebuilds, to old ‘Tanks’. To be a passenger on one of them travelling up Lockwood Scar is an experience that was totally unforgettable. Just a shame that I have lost my photos of these wonderful vehicles in service. It is also good to see a picture of the old Huddersfield bus station, which disappeared in the early 1970’s to make way for the town’s ring road, and has been replaced by a soulless monstrosity that exists till this day. Must admit that the old one had very little protection from the weather
Photographer unknown – if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
Morecambe & Heysham Corporation 1951 AEC Regent III Weymann H33/26R
This shot of a Morecambe & Heysham Regent III shows the older livery of green with three narrow cream bands, the newer livery which had an overall cream roof and a wider centre band can be seen here. This shot shows off very well the half drop windows which I should imagine were just the thing on a hot summers day whilst tootling up Morecambe promenade. Morecambe Corporation buses did not have route numbers just the destination and this bus is destined for ‘Battery which is more or less the centre point of the Morecambe promenade between Heysham harbour to the south and Morecambe golf club to the north. When I say Battery “is” I may mean “was”, when I researched this posting “Battery” the place appears on Google maps along with the a little bed denoting “The Battery Hotel” I am presuming that “The Battery” was an old military building. But on Google earth there is no mention of “Battery” and all I can see is a car park I presume it is the map that is out of date. Does the place “Battery” still exist or is it now just a car park if you know please leave a comment.
The Battery was a large public house situated very close to the Heysham Road Depot. Buses running to the Battery would normally have started the journey at Happy Mount Park.
Terry Malloy
The Battery Hotel still exists. The Battery referred to on Morecambe buses was actually a bus park across the road from the pub it was also adjacent to the Morecambe depot. A recent visit to Morecambe revealed that the site is now a Drs surgery and retail pharmacy Stagecoach run the local services in the town. In the seventies Morecambe had a municipal depot as well as a Ribble one as did Lancaster. Part of Lancaster’s municipal depot is now converted into upmarket apartments called The Old Bus Depot!
Chris Hough
I believe that before Morecambe was developed as a holiday resort and expanded accordingly there was a firing range on the sands between Morecambe & Heysham with the Battery Hotel taking its name from an artillery battery which had been sited nearby. The bus park across the road took its name from the pub, which still gives its name to a timing point on the local bus network although a medical centre/pharmacy now stands on the site of the Battery Bus Park. The Battery is the boundary point between Morecambe & Heysham which were separate local authorities until 1928 when Heysham Urban District and Morecambe Borough Councils merged, the Morecambe & Heysham Corporation bus depot which was a couple of hundred yards south of The Battery was therefore in Heysham.
Ian Simpson
Morecambe were still running over 20 AEC Regent IIIs when they became part of the enlarged Lancaster fleet. Interestingly Morecambe were the last operator to run petrol engined double deckers they were certainly in use in the fifties. Also some of Morecambe’s pre-war double deckers had retractable canvass roofs for sunny weather a feature I would venture to suggest were unique unless anyone knows different .
Chris Hough
Actually the Battery was a field artillery station, when Morecambe was a training depot for the army in the late 1800s. The Battery hotel is named for this reason.
Andrew Wild
Yes Chris, the pre war Regents had roll back canvass roofs from the 1936 Park Royal batch up to the last pre war deliveries. These were panelled in during WW2. The relevant Park Royal bodies had an almost vertical rear dome to accommodate the roll up. I could never understand, as a youngster, why this was so different to the standard PR rear shape! There were some really unusual sounding destinations too, Bare, Happy Mount Park, Heysham Towers as well as “Battery” spring to mind.
John Whitaker
08/04/11 – 05:00
The canvas roofs were not unique to Morecambe double-deckers – in fact they were a short-lived fashion with coastal operators in the early/mid thirties, when they were of course very common on coaches. Southdown certainly had some Short-bodied TDs of this type, one of which I believe still survives.
David Jones
21/04/11 – 06:18
And not just coastal operators. Cheltenham & District had a couple of them for some inexplicable reason!
Chris Hebbron
21/04/11 – 06:31
Perhaps for the Cheltenham (Gold Cup) Festival?
David Oldfield
29/01/12 – 07:28
As youngster I travelled on these buses regularly in the 1950’s. They were always immaculate and looked very smart in their green livery. During the early 1980’s one restored bus, fleet no.69, LTF 254 ran on the promenade Happy Mount to the Battery service during the summer only. Does anyone know what happened to this bus? 20 JTE 546 and 35 KTF 594 were advertised for sale by Quantock Motor Services in Somerset back in Jan 2011 – where are they now?
James Welsh
29/01/12 – 16:34
Nothing really to do with buses but the mention of Bare reminds me that in the 1950s my grandparents and I always visited Morecambe for the Illuminations. We always came on a Yorkshire Woollen excursion and the coach always stopped for a refreshment stop at Ye Old Naked man at Settle. My Grandfather always cracked the same joke saying that the man lived at Bare. The premises are still at Settle but I don’t think that many coaches stop there these days.
Philip Carlton
17/04/12 – 07:03
At the risk of being accused of wandering ‘off topic’, there were (are they still there?) two establishments in the eastern part of Morecambe called the Bare Tennis Club and the Bare Women’s Institute, causing some merriment to visitors. I attended Morecambe Grammar School’s 6th form in the mid 1960’s, and several of my classmates hailed from the White Rose county. They called Morecambe “British West Bradford”!
Pete Davies
20/04/12 – 18:13
Re the diversion to the Bare district of Morecambe, I once read or heard that Morecambe Corp would run a fast duplicate service to that area, leaving the regular service for more local people. At the starting point, the conductress on the duplicate would apparently call out “Bare people only on this bus”! Whether that’s just someone’s made up story, or actually occurred, I know not.
Michael Hampton
21/04/12 – 08:20
…..but it’s worth the telling anyway. Couldn’t bear to miss it.
David Oldfield
21/04/12 – 08:21
Shades, Michael, of the “Loose Women’s Institute” in Maidstone !!
Chris Youhill
19/06/12 – 08:23
Morecambe’s petrol engined AEC Regents were still running until at least 1965 as open toppers. I worked on them then as a conductor during that summer after leaving school. As they were only 7′ 6″ wide, collecting fares with standing passengers was a nightmare!
David Platt
19/06/12 – 09:16
The pre war Morecambe fleet was a classic collection of thoroughbred AEC Regents, with beautiful Park Royal or Weymann bodies, and they are engraved on my childhood memory. All were new with petrol engines, and the post 1936 Park Royal examples had sliding sun roofs, panelled in during WW2. a few survived as open toppers, as described by David above. There is a fleet list on this site to whet your appetite, which also covers Lancaster Corporation. I just wish that I had taken photographs of these buses, as it was this fleet, during my early childhood, which cemented my interest in buses. I realised at an early age, that buses came in different, but subtle shapes, and that our home fleet in Bradford had some of identical pattern (Weymann). If anyone knows of a photograph source for this pre war fleet, then I would love to know. Another fascination was the haphazard, gap filling fleet numbering system, only just recently unwound in my mind thanks to the fleet list submitted by Dave Towers, for which , many thanks Memories!
John Whitaker
19/06/12 – 11:44
Well John, Sheffield were past masters at haphazard gap filling with the fleet numbers and with routes numbers. Possibly a bit biased, but I always preferred Sheffield to Manchester but I have to say the Manchester numbering system was always far better and more logical – 1000s and 3000s for Leyland, 2000s and 4000s for Daimler and blocks of route numbers for routes leaving the city down a particular common corridor.
David Oldfield
19/06/12 – 16:05
John If you can get hold of the Lancaster 75th anniversary brochure from 1978 you will find several shots of pre-war Morecambe buses including one overturned on the foreshore. The brochure can be obtained via Amazon. There is also a Super Prestige paperback album about Morecambe and Lancaster buses.
Chris Hough
20/06/12 – 08:08
Thanks Chris…I have both those publications, and also the “Morecambe Bay Buses” of c. 1978. The Super Prestige one is well worth having if you are a fan of either Lancaster and/or Morecambe. I just love the pre-war Lancaster “English Electric” flavour too! Bus shapes very similar to the Bradford Regen trolleys I was brought up with!
John Whitaker
21/06/12 – 06:57
Picking up David’s point, Manchester’s fleet numbering system was certainly a model of neatness, but its rationalisation of route numbers into corridor blocks was not without its critics. It has been suggested that it was far easier for passengers to remember the difference between 50, 64 and 161 than between the 41, 44 and 45 that replaced them.
Peter Williamson
10/10/12 – 09:34
Other than for a couple of brief breaks I lived in Morecambe from late 1958 up to 1982 and am therefore able to confirm/correct some of the above. A bus coming along the promenade showing ‘Battery’ may indeed have come from Happy Mount Park, or it may have come from Central Pier. M & H were famous for sending spare crews out doing ‘promenades’, i.e. extras between the Battery and Central Pier – even when there was no earthly need for them! The turning arrangement at Central Pier was to back into a side street (Clarence Street I think it was called) – it would never be tolerated these days. Buses also terminated at the Battery on the so-called ‘Circular’ service, i.e. Heysham Village – Battery – Promenade – Bare (Princes Crescent) – Torrisholme – Euston Road – Battery. After the arrival of the Leyland PD2s in 1960/62, they were the usual performers on the route. I wouldn’t say that the Battery bus parking area was ‘adjacent’ to the depot – the depot being a full bus stop distance away. Don’t remember a firing range on the sands, but had there been one I probably wouldn’t have remembered it anyway. I haven’t previously heard that the boundary between Morecambe and Heysham was at the Battery, or that the bus depot was in Heysham, but I’ve never been too sure where the boundary actually was so I’d better abdicate on this point. I feel sure that the restored Regent III which ran on the promenade in the 1980s could only have been number 20 (JTE 546). Number 69 (KTF 254) was sold to the Mersey & Calder Bus Preservation Group in the late 1970s and is still, I believe, in preservation at present. KTF 594 was fleet number 65 while with M & H. I think that few people who have stopped for a break at Settle and parked in the car/coach park – even bus enthusiasts – will have realised that there is a bus depot located there. It certainly doesn’t stand out. I think, Pete, that you have mentioned elsewhere that you attended Morecambe Grammar School in the 1960s. I did a full seven-year ‘stretch’ (1960-67) and I sincerely hope that your own experience of the place was significantly more positive than my own. This is perhaps a long shot, but did you happen to be a pal of one of the Mollitt twins? I wouldn’t be able to remember which one, but one thing I can remember is that they had forenames with the same initial letter – James and John I think. Never known non-stop extras to Bare, I think that story’s apocryphal. Morecambe’s last two pre-war Regents, 25 and 49, last ran, I think, in the summer of 1966, but they were diesel-engined by that time. I believe the conversion was quite late – possibly c1960 – by which time they were the only survivors. They were converted to open-top in time for the 1962 season, having been made surplus by the arrival of PD2As 90 and 91. When they were converted I believe the original gearboxes were retained, and as a diesel engine is much slower-revving than a petrol this made them hopelessly undergeared. I’ve heard that the drivers called them ‘two-gear’ buses – which would mean either second then top, or perhaps third then top.
David Call
24/06/13 – 11:40
James Welsh (29/01/12) above asks whatever happened to LTF 254. Well it is preserved and was in service at the Ribble event in Morecambe this year – my picture was taken at Heaton Park on 4/9/2011
Ken Jones
24/03/14 – 13:46
Mention of petrol engined open-top Regents running until 1965 was a little off the mark. The last petrols (enclosed deckers) ran after the 1959 season, new Leylands replacing them the following winter. Two petrols had been converted to diesel after the war – these engines subsequently getting switched to ‘newer’ examples, and it was these which became open-topped from 1962 lasting till 1967 by when some Regent IIIs had been cut down. Open top 65 and enclosed 20 were sold by Quantock late in 2011 passing to Ukraine, 65 known to have been put into use at Sevastopol in red as “London Bus Cafe” (what else!).
Richard Allen
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
16/09/16 – 06:17
Last November John Hewitt and Daren Hunt bought MTE 635 from Ken Wade. Hopefully back on the road in 2 years time.
Eastern Scottish 1949 AEC Regent III 9612E Duple L27/26R
This would of been a lovely shot apart from the glare on the front upper deck but then again it does not take anything away from the sleek lines of a Duple bodied bus. There is as usual the decoration associated with Duple more a coach than a bus builder on this vehicle which did spoil the looks sometimes. I started looking into the history of this operator but what a minefield Scottish Omnibuses Ltd was made up of three separate operators Eastern Scottish, Baxter’s Bus Service and Stark’s Motor Services. I think the history of the Scottish Bus Group of Alexander, Highland Omnibuses, MacBrayne, S.M.T. and Scottish Omnibuses is far to complicated for this posting more for an article if anybody is up to it.
I liked these Duple bodies with the mouldings. However, am I right in thinking that Duple only made lowbridge versions with these features? I can’t think of any highbridge examples. I’d love to be proved wrong.
Paul Haywood
As far as I know you’re dead right about there having been no highbridge Duples of this design on AEC chassis, more’s the pity. The Red and White group had a number of very nice examples of both lowbridge and highbridge design on Guy Arab III chassis though. In addition to the “home fleet” four highbridge models were delivered to the Venture, Basingstoke fleet in 1950. These were reallocated to the former Newbury and District fleet when only a few months old. Here they joined one highbridge and two lowbridge examples of a similar vintage, all of which survived in Thames Valley ownership until 1968. Newbury depot also had some utility highbridge Guys and, following a couple of low bridge incidents when highbridge vehicles had been allowed to accidentally strayed onto the Lambourn road it was decided to renumber them in a series H1-H16, the splendid Duple bodied examples being H10 (the original N&D example) and H13-6 (the former Venture vehicles). The two lowbridge vehicles, which had platform doors and heaters as well as what were effectively dual purpose seats from new and which had been chosen to compete with the Lambourn Valley railway on the Newbury – Lambourn routes, retained their original numbers, 170/1. I quite literally grew up with these buses and they were absolutely superb. The highbridge examples were a little less luxurious than the lowbridge but still of a very high spec. Despite being non standard in the Thames Valley Bristol/ECW fleet they were very well thought of by both drivers and engineering staff and were both well used and beautifully presented throughout their lives. The two lowbridge examples were still invariably on all day workings up to their withdrawal. Sadly, despite rumours to the contrary none survived to see further service or preservation as at the time of their withdrawal Gardner engines were worth a fortune and all seven of these are believed to have ended up powering junks in Hong Kong! The buses that they came from were all scrapped very quickly thereafter. A beautiful Red and White highbridge example lives on in preservation though.
Dave Wilder
19/09/13 – 18:08
This AEC Regent would have been new, or acquired, to SMT Scottish Motor Traction and is seen in a variant livery in the transition to Scottish Bus Group, which was created ca 1964 and reorganised the SMT companies into Western SMT, Central SMT and Eastern Scottish, and the Alexander’s empire into Midland, Fife and Northern. The Edinburgh SMT company had changed to Scottish Omnibuses, to differentiate itself from SMT Motors (the original parent), which continued as a Vauxhall dealership in Edinburgh Fountainbridge and Lothian Road. Scottish Omnibuses had acquired/merged with Stark’s Dunbar, Baxter’s Coatbridge and Lowland Omnibuses (all over the Borders). The first two retained their liveries and identities into the 70s.
David Scott
09/10/13 – 08:29
Somewhat belatedly, may I add some clarification to one or two of David’s remarks? This vehicle would have been new to Scottish Omnibuses: they had 20 in all, BB61-80, GSF644-GSF663. All the constituent companies of the Scottish Bus Group pre-date its formation. Western SMT and Central SMT both date from June 1932. Alexander’s dates from 1914 although the familiar ‘W Alexander & Sons’ name was only introduced in 1924; prior to that, the company had been known as Alexander’s Motor Services. The ‘split’, which created Midland, Fife and Northern took effect on 15 May 1961 although the empire had been split, operationally, into Southern, Fife and Northern Areas prior to that, not to mention David Lawson of Kirkintilloch which was purchased in 1936 but retained as an operating subsidiary until it was absorbed by the newly-created Midland company in 1961. The history of SMT and its various fleetnames is complex. SMT operated its first bus on 1 January 1906. The bus company split from SMT Sales & Servicing at the time of Nationalisation in 1949 but secured an agreement to retain the SMT fleetname for a limited period; the legal name became Scottish Omnibuses Ltd, though. Coaches started appearing with both SMT and Scottish Omnibuses fleetnames in 1959 although, in 1961, the SMT was dropped. In 1963 the fleetname ‘=Scottish=’ made its debut but the SMT diamond was resurrected after about a year, before the company finally settled on ‘Eastern Scottish’ in late 1964. Stark’s Motor Services of Dunbar was taken over on 1 January 1964. From about the mid-50s, however, buses on the Dunbar to Edinburgh service, which was co-ordinated with the SMT and United services over the same stretch of route, carried SMT diamond fleetnames and a reversed SMT livery. After takeover, the Stark’s livery was slightly revised and Stark’s fleetnames were carried by all vehicles operating from Dunbar and North Berwick depots; the Stark’s livery was retained for 15 years. (And, yes, this does mean that the SMT fleetname was carried by certain vehicles when they were owned by Stark’s whilst the Stark’s flletname was carried after they were owned by SMT!) Baxter’s Bus Service was acquired on 1 December 1962 and, initially, buses operating the former Baxter’s routes were painted in a revised version of the SMT light-green livery. The management in Edinburgh, however, not for the first time – or the last – out of touch with operations in the West of Scotland, seriously underestimated the loyalty of the people of Airdrie and Coatbridge towards their local operator; within a few months, after considerable disquiet and criticism in the local press, the management realised their error and Baxter’s blue livery and fleetnames started reappearing on Victoria depot’s buses. This arrangement remained until 1977. When David mentions “Lowland Omnibuses (all over the borders)” he may be mixing the formation of Lowland Scottish in 1985 with the purchase of Lowland Motorways of Shettleston on 13 January 1958. Lowland Motorways’ services to the East of Glasgow and their vehicles, hitherto painted in an attractive livery of two shades of green, were all taken over and their livery disappeared. Lowland Scottish, on the other hand, took over all of Eastern Scottish’s depots in the Borders and, additionally, the former Stark’s depots at Dunbar and North Berwick. Interestingly though, in view of events 25 years later, in May 1960, Stark’s were short of vehicles and hired one from SMT; knowing of Stark’s liking for Leylands, SMT sent them the ex-Lowland Motorways’ prototype Tiger Cub H106, LYS943, and this operated for Stark’s for a very short period.
Alan Hall
06/01/15 – 05:47
The 20 Duple bodied AEC Regent IIIs were the only Duple bodied AEC double deckers built for anybody. There were a large number of highbridge bodies built to this or a similar design, most notably the Red & White Guy Arab IIIs, but also the 60 bodies supplied to Edinburgh Corporation in 1952 (finished by Nudd Bros & Lockyer, part of the Duple group) on reconditioned ex London wartime Guy Arab II (5LW engines apart from one fitted with a 6LW). These had a partial full front body, but the remainder of the body was the same.
Harry Barker
06/01/15 – 09:39
The bodies on the ex LT Edinburgh Guy Arabs were not quite the same, Harry. Though based on similar frames, they were built to an extremely lightweight specification that offered a truly spartan level of interior finish. OBP does have a contribution on these buses.
Roger Cox
10/02/17 – 16:51
I well remember that when the ‘Scotties’ paid their annual exchange visits to YTC at Barnsley in the early sixties, they travelled in AEC coaches with pre selector gearboxes. I seem to remember taking one off the inspection pit as no one knew how these gearboxes worked, except the apprentices who were studying them at collage at the time, and we didn’t have them at the time and in fact never ran the type with the bus-bar ‘Clutch.’ Can anyone tell me about these Coaches which were very luxurious and had toilet facilities and each seat was provided with a travelling rug for the passenger.
ELJ Tracky Lad
17/02/17 – 06:45
Scottish Omnibuses had some AEC Regal IVs with Alexander bodies, dating from 1951/3, which match the description – 9821E/9822E chassis and C30Ft bodies. I must say I’m surprised if some of them retained that configuration into the 1960s though. A couple of photos, one from each batch: https://flic.kr/p/Gd9DoGhttps://flic.kr/p/nbGwHd
Peter Williamson
18/02/17 – 06:50
Sorry, I’ve just noticed that the Regal IV coach in the second photo I linked to above had been rebodied in 1957. BLOTW says it was Alexander again, although it doesn’t resemble any Alexander body I’ve ever seen.
Peter Williamson
11/07/17 – 06:50
The AEC by Alexanders registered KSC was damaged in an accident when it came off the A68 at Soutra Hill in snow on its way to London. Alexanders Falkirk fitted a 1955 style front when repairing it. This 1953 coach was one of a pair which had a pseudo Seagull coach line to its side appearance. Noticeable by its hybrid style, I saw this refurbished coach once or twice in Edinburgh.
Photograph taken by Robert Mack in 1956 copyright held by Don Akrigg
Hebble Motor Services 1950 AEC Regent III 9612E Roe L27/26R
This a shot of a Roe lowbridge bodied Regent III owned by Hebble there as been a shot of one of their Willowbrook lowbridge bodied Regents on site before – search for “Hebble” in the “Find” section of this site. This bus is on route 17 which was Bradford to Halifax via Queensbury. Bradford Corporation did not have any lowbridge vehicles nor did Halifax and both ran services to Queensbury so why did Hebble only have lowbridge vehicles at the time this shot was taken. Hebble acquired their first highbridge vehicles in 1957 and were three rear entrance Regent Vs, there must of been another route that needed the lowbridge vehicles. Hebble did have a Bradford to Bingley route via Wilsden which may have encountered a low bridge of the old railway line. If you know why Hebble had an all lowbridge fleet until 1957 please leave a comment. This vehicle was originally numbered 46 but was renumbered in 1957 and was withdrawn from service in 1962 only twelve years.
Hebble had no highbridge buses until the depot was modified, after this highbridge buses for some years (Regent V’s) had cream fronts to distinguish them from lowbridge buses. The depot roof being raised but not the full area and thus there were dangerous places for high buses to go. Oddly Todmorden had the same problem and both ended up as part of Halifax.
Christopher
I had a very soft spot for these fine vehicles in their lovely traditional maroon and brown original livery. They shared the Samuel Ledgard terminus in King Street Leeds by the GPO wooden parcels office, and appear in the background on many Ledgard pictures. They set off here for Burnley or Rochdale on services 15 and 28, and left at twenty past and ten to the hour. A particularly congested time was from 5.15pm to 5.30pm Mondays to Fridays when there were six departures in ten minutes:- two of the fine Hebble vehicles and, four good old Ledgard’s, 5.27pm to Rawdon, 5.28pm to Guiseley White Cross, 5.29pm to Ilkley and 5.30pm to Ilkley. All were heavily loaded and the bus industry was still healthy, although about to “catch a cold” in those happy days.
Chris Youhill
15/08/11 – 13:25
I rode on these often on the 17 Bradford-Halifax via Queensbury route. This route was interworked with the Halifax-Bradford via Shelf Route 7 in that the bus started on Route 17 Halifax-Queensbury-Bradford then Route 7 Bradford-Shelf-Halifax then 7 to Bradford via Shelf and finally 17 back to Halifax via Queensbury. It used to take two and a half hours full trip (I’ve done it). This arrangement survived the demise of Hebble when the routes become joint Bradford CT and Halifax routes 76/77 and then PTE routes 576 577. I remember round trips on Metro Halifax’s Ailsa and the Metropolitan demo. Hope this may be of interest.
Kev
15/08/11 – 21:49
Before using the 9.6 litre Regents on the 19 service, Bradford to Bingley, Hebble used their 1946 Regal II single decks, with Weymann bodies, new in 1946. 19 was on “home territory” and I do not recollect any lowbridge necessity on the route. What intrigues me is why Hebble reverted to 7.7 Regents with the CJX Willowbrook batch. I well remember some City of Oxford lowbridge utility Guys running, on loan, on the 19 route, but I cannot remember the year! Mind you, cannot remember much of note these days!
John Whitaker
26/08/11 – 07:11
Hebble’s fifteen Roe-bodied Regent III’s 26-37, and 44-46 were 0961 or 9612E models with 9.6 litre engines and preselector gearboxes. The four Willowbrook-bodied Regent III’s 67-70, were not 7.7 models, but type 9613A with 9.6 litre engines and D124 crash gearboxes. This previously long running and successful gearbox design proved troublesome when matched to the 9.6 unit and after a short time these four had them replaced with synchromesh boxes as used on the Regent V. Some late Regent III’s had this box fitted from new, being model 9613S, but these Hebble ones remained officially 9613A. They were wonderful buses apart from the poor visibility through the front upper deck windows. Their interiors had polished woodwork which gave a much more quality feel than the painted wood of the Roe-bodied ones. They sounded great too.
John Stringer
27/08/11 – 14:18
The 9613A was fitted to quite a few post 1950 Regent IIIs and was not up to the challenge. Most were retro-fitted with syncromesh boxes – as was the case with Sheffield’s 1952 Roe bodied batch of 9. They were meant to be delivered with syncro boxes but apparently AECs own syncro box had not been developed sufficiently so they were delivered, in the interim, with D124 boxes. [So the story goes.]
David Oldfield
01/07/12 – 09:48
This has been a very nostalgic visit. I was trying to find out what buses would take people from Bradford to Shipley Glen in 1959, and thought maybe it was the Hebble. Can anyone confirm that? My mother used to say, ‘Time, tide and Hebble wait for no man and once you’re on ’em, they can shek yer liver pin out.’ !
Lynda Finn
04/07/12 – 05:10
Lynda It wouldn’t have been Hebble to Shipley Glen, the nearest they would be would be Cottingley Bar on the Duckworth Lane to Bingley route – a good 2 miles away. Until the withdrawal of the trolleybuses the nearest you could get on the South side of the river would be Saltaire (either by Trolleybus or West Yorkshire Keighley bound buses – necessitating a walk down Victoria Road and across the river. When motorbuses were introduced Bradford City Transport (blue buses) introduced a service down Victoria Road to Salts Mill (23) which showed ‘Shipley Glen’ on the front but you still had to walk across the river – and then in all cases you had to either use the Shipley Glen Tramway if it was running or walk up the path to the Glen. On the North side of the river West Yorkshire buses to Baildon via Baildon Green (61) got you a tad nearer and they eventually introduced a service 60 in the early 60’s along the Coach Road virtually to the bottom of the tramway. I think this also showed (more accurately) ‘Shipley Glen’. By the way – and John Whitaker will confirm – your Mum was absolutely right with her saying !
Samuel Ledgard 1948 AEC Regent III East Lancs H33/26R
Here is a happy picture of yours truly enjoying my work immensely with Samuel Ledgard at Otley Depot. I am returning from the Estate on one of the local town services and have just crossed the River Wharfe bridge. Before I am reprimanded for “incorrect destination” I must explain that the display was officially shown in both directions as “Weston Estate” to avoid passenger confusion with the other town service which shared the river crossing – a little local quirk which suited everyone. GDK 401 was one of a batch of five (GDK 401 – 5) which came from Rochdale in February 1962 and had most handsome and functional East Lancashire bodywork. Notable features were the superior quality blue leather seats and the spacious very safe platform and “easy” staircase. The entire batch retained gold Rochdale fleet numbers (201 – 205) in both saloons – a nice little touch I thought. The vehicles were also the first that we had with air operated brakes and gearboxes. A nice little anecdote, and a true one, goes with 401. When the batch was acquired this vehicle alone was sent to Otley depot for complete and prompt overhaul for early entry into service with the others at Armley Head depot. However its appeal and charms were instantly apparent to all, and in a very uncharacteristic “Luddite” operation the normally highly efficient overhaul process was delayed by a myriad of “difficulties” for a very considerable time. When the bus was eventually ready for certification the powers that be at mighty Armley, normally unbending in any way, for some reason capitulated and lovely 401 remained with us at Otley till the end of the Company. The initial very basic plans for the West Yorkshire Road Car Co takeover contained the allocation of WYRCC numbers for the whole Ledgard fleet – this scheme as we know was completely revised before the day, and so our Rochdale friend never became “DAW 1” (Double, AEC engine, Wide) after all.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Chris Youhill
Bus tickets issued by this operator can be viewed here.
Such a shame that Samuel Ledgard sold out. It would be interesting to see what vehicles they would be running today.
Terry Malloy
Yes, it is a shame, Terry – the buses look fantastic in full livery – but fifty years down the line, is it not possible that we would be looking at them in Barbie colours? Lots of mistakes made in the industry, but death and other things have always enforced change!
David Oldfield
Quote: (Double, AEC engine, Wide)
I assume that the Wide means that it had an 8′ wide body. It certainly appears to have one, in a surprisingly obvious way, just like LT’s RTW class.
Nice to see a Ledgard vehicle in colour; it’s my first time of seeing one of them in all its glory!
By the way what is an ‘easy’ staircase?
Chris Hebbron
I’m sure Chris Youhill will fill us in about the easy staircase. Is it like the Roe safety staircase and the Birmingham staircase – straight, or with 90% bends, with no “dangerous” curves during its length?
David Oldfield
Yes Chris, the “W” in the West Yorkshire fleet numbering system did indeed mean 8 feet wide – just as an interesting point, they had some vehicles with 8 feet wide bodies on 7’6″ chassis – as did a good few Bristol/ECW customers.
Chris and David, the word “easy” was just my own way of describing these vehicles – the stairs were of the 90 degree pattern and were wider than usual and were situated safely well away from the edge of a generous sized platform – somewhat difficult to explain, but splendidly designed.
Chris Youhill
A query for Chris: my hazy recollection of “Exors of Samuel Ledgard” buses- as it legally proclaimed- was that the were a dark navy blue- not this jaunty colour: 1. am I wrong? 2. does the camera lie? 3. is it anything to do with its former existence in Rochdale?
Joe
Well this is indeed an interesting point, and memory does play tricks as we all know. However I have to say that the answer lies somewhere between the shades of blue in the picture of GDK 401 and that in the link for RT MXX 148. The only fair comment I can make is that, as Peter says, the colour in the picture of GDK 401 is a bit light and bright due to the sun etc. Certainly though the shade shown in the view of the RT is far darker than the actual, and I can confidently say that the Otley picture is much nearer to being spot on than the Bradford one. The Rochdale livery is not relevant at all, as every acquired bus was thoroughly rubbed down, primed and undercoated to remove any trace whatsoever of previous ownership. The attached view of newly acquired BCK 427 from Ribble in the paintshop at Armley Head Depot is as good a sample as we could wish for – despite the different light aspects the lower saloon panels are exactly as the livery was. Hope this helps clear the mists of time for those interested.
Chris Youhill
…..and there is also the splendid RLH (forget which number) which was rallying last year in full Ledgard colours. Quite a bright blue – neither royal nor navy.
David Oldfield
The purpose of the photo may well have been to clarify SL’s livery, but this is a nice photo in itself and shows off this attractive vehicle’s bodylines very well, aided by the total lack of adverts. Good to see a rear’ish view for a change. It may be a trick of the light, but has the rear lower body panel been well punched by a very cross 10 year old?
Chris Hebbron
I see what you mean – the panel seems well and truly “waffled”, but I think it is in fact just a mirror image of activity nearby in the garage what lloks like the floor can be seen, and possibly a mechanic’s overall legs. It is a strange optical effect, but please do rest assured that the panel will have been perfect before painting.
Chris Youhill
Hi David – the magnificent vehicle to which you refer is RLH 32 – MXX 232. It is part of the heritage fleet of Time Bus Travel of St. Albans and the proprietors, the Pring Family, did the Samuel Ledgard Society an immeasurable and generous kindness by having the bus professionally and immaculately painted in Samuel Ledgard colours for our 40th Anniversary Re-enactment running day on Sunday 14th October 2007. I was humbled and highly honoured to conduct it almost all the time it ran on Samuel Ledgard routes giving free rides to delighted and nostalgic passengers – I wore my original Samuel Ledgard uniform and used my Otley Depot Setright ticket machine – SL 40.
Chris Youhill
Re Chris Youhill’s latest comment about RLH 32 under the heading of AEC Regent III GDK 401, here’s a photo of the bus in question on the day in question.
Peter Williamson
Thank you Peter W for that lovely view, which captures the atmosphere of that wonderful day perfectly. Judging by the load, the RLH is about to leave for Guiseley and the driver is Mr. Ewan Pring who handles the vehicle magnificently and sympathetically, as you would expect from the owner of such a cherished gem. While you took the photo I will have been on the platform, about to issue the authentic souvenir tickets to the passengers. I can’t begin to explain my feelings on that day which was fifty years exactly since I eagerly started work for the Company – a day on which the RLH will still, of course, have been hard at work in London !!
Chris Youhill
I’ve always been fascinated by the myriad variations on the theme of how to get passengers upstairs, so Chris Youhill’s reference to the East Lancs “easy staircase” tickled my curiosity. I imagine that, as on post-war ECW highbridge bodies until about 1957, the top step will have caused a 9″x9″ protrusion into the lower saloon, above the offside transverse seat. The loss of headroom would be no more than that entailed by a lowbridge side gangway: a very small price to pay for the virtue of having the bottom step 9″ farther in from the platform edge. Until the mid-1920s it seems that body designers tried to get the bottom step as NEAR as possible to the platform edge, presumably so that passengers could leap straight up top from the street, leaving the platform free for those timid souls who preferred to travel inside. I’ve never understood why this hazardous arrangement persisted so long with some makers. Lowbridge bodies needed only 7 steps (6 treads), yet Leyland and MCW, for example, never took advantage of that, preferring their top step to stop about 9″ back from the bulkhead or (Leyland) to give the top two steps 13.5″ treads instead of 9″. Was standardisation of parts between lowbridge and highbridge a factor? I love the Roe Safety Staircase: by intruding into the lower saloon you can bring the bottom step well inboard and therefore have a seat for three right at the back upstairs with no risk of bumping your head on the underside of that seat. Perfectly logical: you lose a seat downstairs and gain one on top. Much rarer was the pattern found on Burnley, Colne and Nelson deckers: the 9″x9″ box was moved 4″ forward and the step below it protruded downstairs just enough to fill the space above your shoulder but not enough to compromise headroom. With a bit of angling of the bottom few steps the stairs still touched ground far enough from the platform edge to allow a 3-seater at the back upstairs. Do any of these survive? I fancy I came across a similar arrangement on a bus in Yorkshire (Rotherham) but my wires may be crossed. Then there was the West Bridgford arrangement, and Alan Townsin’s mention of “semi-straight”and “side” staircases in his book on Park Royal, but I’d better not get carried away…
Ian Thompson
Why not get carried away, Ian. It’s fascinating. It’s what real enthusiasm is – not just “bus spotting”! I can bore for Britain over Roe – my favourite builder – but it is interesting to discover that they weren’t the only builder doing a variation on safety staircases.
David Oldfield
wow… talk about nostalgia. When going to Leeds I would often take “Sammy’s” route through Pudsey rather than the Leeds/Bradford joint route (72) through Stanningley Bottoms. I used the route the day after the closure. It just wasn’t the same with green municipal buses and a route number (78). Do you have any images of my favourite Ledgard Regents, 1949/50 U before they assumed their West Yorkshire identities, DGW 11-12? Charles
Hello Charles – fear not, there are literally dozens of pictures around showing your two favourite vehicles at all ages – by the way with respect they became DAW 5/6. DGW 11/12 were the two Daimlers XUG 141 and SDU 711.
Chris Youhill
Thanks for putting me right on the WY fleet numbers for 1949/50-U. I lost interest in these vehicles once they donned Tilling red but I still think Roe/AEC combos were vehicles made in heaven. I marked my 57th year as a bus enthusiast when I hit the big 67 recently. Over the last 40 years I have observed the British scene from Australia so I am pleased that a young(er) member of the fraternity can take time out to refresh the ageing grey cells
Charles
Ian, I can only echo David’s wise words and there is no harm at all in being “carried away” by mature detailed discussion on any public transport topic. I have to admit that you have completely “baffled me with science” about the upper reaches of many staircases and, in all honesty I cannot remember what happened “up aloft” on GDK 401 – 405. However I am pretty certain that the top flight ended exactly at the bulkhead and that you then made use of the space behind the rear offside seat to proceed into the upper saloon – this was definitely the norm with Leyland bodies and also with the Park Royal relaxed utilities on the ex London D class Daimlers. I think the particular success of the East Lancashire formula arose from the fact that each tread seemed very generous and safe in depth and in lateral dimensions, hence my term “easy.”
Chris Youhill
I am trying to match the blue and cream colours of the Ledgard busses for somebody. Does anybody know the exact colour code? I’ve crossed checked RAl and British standard colours of the day but unfortunately cannot get it exactly right.
Kevin Harvey
Rochdale withdrew AEC Regent III’s 201-205 out of sequence as the older Weymann bodied 7ft 6in Regent III’s 31-48 were kept for several more years. It was reported that the East Lancs 4 bay body design had inherent weakness and this could have been the reason. I remember riding on one of the batch shortly before they disappeared to Yorkshire and there was evidence of severe corrosion of the window pans inside the vehicle. East Lancs standardised on 5 bay designs afterwards and this reputedly solved any problems. Rochdale’s final five Regent III’s had 5 bay bodies by East Lancs and these had full service lives. One is preserved.
Philip Halstead
You are absolutely right about the window pans Philip and in fact Samuel Ledgard had them all replaced with newly manufactured ones – my picture at the top of this feature shows GDK 401 so fitted.
Chris Youhill
25/04/11 – 17:57
Blue colour paints – you have to bear in mind that until the advent of purely chemical paints, blue was particularly prone to change of colour in its life, becoming darker and acquiring a purple sheen – this may explain the different views of the colour tone. I’m sure an expert in paint could explain this far more accurately.
Anon
26/04/11 – 07:10
Further thoughts and hazy remembrance of silk screen printing… blue is a “translucent” colour and therefore the final colour may also depend on what is underneath. The darker the primer….
Joe
27/04/11 – 07:20
It’s not only dyed-in-the-wool enthusiasts that wax lyrical over Samuel Ledgard. On Easter Day I met a Leeds man who was down here visiting his family, and when I was introduced as a bus fanatic he immediately began to reminisce about his prewar schoolboy trips on Ledgard buses. Unfortunately there wasn’t time to go into detail, but then there never is…
Ian Thompson
04/10/11 – 14:18
Just had to thank Chris Youhill for his comments regarding the book, Beer and Blue Buses, of which I have managed to track down a signed copy. Thanks again Chris, I look forward to reading it.
Roger Broughton
12/10/17 – 07:01
Wasn’t sure where to put this comment, but the pic here is a classic (and that’s just Chris) The Yorkshire Evening Post (Leeds) has a little feature to tell us that its 50 years since Ledgards closed. It is thin on detail but does mention that Saml was a publican from a family of publicans whose business developed from a pub in Armley and the practice of charabancing your lorries at weekends. The rest, I suppose is history.
Joe
20/10/17 – 06:55
Lot of coverage in local papers about Ledgard’s 50th- closure that is- anniversary. Try this link which includes a photo gallery, and guess who is in the first picture? I also saw a First bus this week in a sort of Ledgard’s livery.
Joe
24/10/17 – 06:40
Joe – The first photo, with Chris Y in it, is not what it one might surmise. HLW 159 was never an SL bus, but was sold to Bradford and seems to be in their livery, although we’ve argued about photo colours before. Other clues are that the front blind display seems to be original (SL reduced them to one smaller one) and that Bradford were the only successor who, bizarrely, went to the trouble of removing the plate on the bonnet side which originally surrounded the RT fleet number, which, in this case, was RT172. This range of buses were a bargain, for most of them were overhauled only around 12 months before disposal by LT. More silly money-wasting nonsense from the London giant!
Chris Hebbron
25/10/17 – 07:26
HLW 159 is ex Bradford and was the only one of 25 to retain its roof box throughout its time at Bradford. The other roof box-bodied buses and most of the non-roof box-bodied buses had eventually, the normal Bradford indicators fitted. A picture of 410 is on //www.sct61.org.uk/bf410c
Stuart Emmett
25/10/17 – 07:30
Chris H- quite right. How the bus and Chris Y came to be cosied together, only he can tell us. I am caught posting Fake News or Noos as the man himself says. The slip in the window doesn’t say Saml Ledgard but On Hire to… Blue can be of its nature a variable colour as we have discussed, but this is indeed Bradford- the sign written number plate? Does it live in the transport museum?
Joe
28/10/17 – 16:54
I have read the very interesting contribution that Stuart Emmett has made in ‘Buses Yearbook 2018’ telling the story of the Bradford RT buses. Credit due to him. I was unaware that some were painted in a ‘quick fix’ Bradford livery featuring less cream relief.
David Slater
27/07/19 – 09:45
Here is a 1965 shot of fellow ex Rochdale Regent GDK 405 leaving in the company of a Hebble Reliance amid the wanton destruction of historic Bradford to facilitate the encroachment of soulless architectural excrescences.
Roger Cox
29/07/19 – 06:37
Regarding this latest shot added I think you will find that the “Hebble Reliance” is actually a Ribble Leopard on service J1.
John Kaye
29/07/19 – 06:38
Roger, I may be wrong but the “Hebble Reliance” looks to be Ribble Leopard.
John Blackburn
29/07/19 – 06:39
A great action shot of two most handsome vehicles Roger, as they no doubt vie for pole position on their way to Chester Street Bus Station. I totally agree with you regarding the wanton destruction of historic Bradford. Many wonderful gems have been lost over the years and even the lovely view of Forster Square with its Victorian Post Office and Cathedral backdrop can no longer be seen from the bottom of Cheapside, as the new all-encompassing Broadway shopping complex completely blocks it. Now sorry to nitpick slightly Roger, but that Hebble Reliance looks suspiciously like a dual-purpose Ribble Leopard to me…
Brendan Smith
30/07/19 – 07:36
Thank you for the corrections, gentlemen. I should have looked more carefully at the Hebble vehicle. You can’t get away with sloppy work on OBP.
Roger Cox
Further to my previous abject apology, a very close study of the original slide reveals that the vehicle behind the Ledgard Regent is, indeed, Ribble Leyland Leopard PSU3/4R, Marshall DP49F No.831, CRN 831D.
Photographer unknown – if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
Potteries Motor Traction 1952 AEC Regent III 9613A Northern Counties H32/26R
This is a rather nice looking Northern Counties bodied Regent III the front of the upper deck looks a bit Massey-ish but the flared skirt just adds that little extra touch. PMT had a very varied fleet one reason for this was that when they took over a rival operator they absorbed their vehicles into their own fleet. In 1951 PMT took over five companies and 150 vehicles I do not think that REH 500 fleet number H500 was one of them. REH 500 was a Daimler CLG5 I have not come across many of those in my researching, mind you, they only had the one, the L by the way stood for lightweight. With regards Daimler and PMT they were the largest operator of the Roadliner having almost seventy of them, but that is another sad story which should really be told with a photo of a PMT Roadliner above it, unfortunately I do not have one.
A full list of Regent III and Daimler codes can be seen here.
For Daimler CLG5 see my comment under the heading of Manchester Daimler NNB 231. PMT’s REH 500 was one of the two prototypes. It also carried the prototype MCW Orion body and appeared at the 1952 Commercial Motor Show.
Peter Williamson
I also seem to recollect that PMT had the first 30′ Orion on a PD3 – which was unique in having six short bays (of same size as on 27′ models) rather than the standard five longer bays.
David Oldfield
These were a splendid vehicle they gave a nice comfortable ride and were quite quick I have driven this vehicle and also been a conductor on this vehicle.
Michael Crofts
This vehicle was one of a batch of twelve, ordered in 1951 jointly by two independents, Stoke Motors and Thomas Tilstone with a view to a merger of the two businesses. It is written that this prospect alarmed PMT so much that they made a more than generous offer to the proprietors, hence a batch of Regents delivered to a fleet not known hitherto for AEC purchases, although they became common later with Reliances.
Chris Barker
Also worthy of note the AEC Regents above had the air cleaner from the engine attached by pipe work to the upper saloon which is why the front window pillar is so thick and this kept the air in the saloon clear of cigarette smoke, the ceiling looked like a crib board.
York Pullman Bus Company Ltd 1954 AEC Regent III 6812A Roe H33/25RD
The last in my collection of York Pullman vehicles, that’s worth showing that is, shot into sun again, apart from having my finger in front of the lens I couldn’t have got it more wrong. Anyway this shot does show off York Pullmans distinctive livery, there was a darker yellow band below the windows unfortunately the upper band does not show very well in this shot. York Pullman took delivery of three of these Regent IIIs in 1954 JDN 667-9 fleet numbers 63-5 fortunately number 64 was restored by Tony Peart to a very high standard and on his death passed to the Lincolnshire Vintage Vehicle Society.
Chassis, body, operator – almost perfection. [Well you know I prefer heavy weight AECs – or heavy anything, come to that!] …..and if my bad photos turned out like this one I’d be very happy.
David Oldfield
A very handsome vehicle in a very handsome livery, and the shadow cast by the sun shows the waist rail up a treat. For anyone interested, there is a video clip on ‘you tube’ aboard 64 (JDN 668), touring around Lincoln. Whilst watching and listening to this, I could not help thinking that the gearbox sounds were very similar to those of pre-war AECs. Was the gearbox of prewar design by any chance, or a modified version perhaps?
Brendan Smith
I suspect the aural beauty of all manual AEC boxes lay in their pre-war origins.
David Oldfield
I would also like to associate myself with the affection expressed for the music of the AEC manual gearbox. My early recollections are of Midland General specimens (including some pre-war front entrance Regents), various Trent examples, and later Grimsby’s ex-London Transport STLs. Just a few weeks ago I had the enjoyment of the same sounds on a preserved Regal/Strachans during the Kingsbridge 7ft 6in running day – all the way from Kingsbridge to Totnes and back – a hilly run with plenty of second and even first gear work.
Stephen Ford
Yet another vote here for the glorious sounds of the AEC manual gearboxes. The much travelled and totally rebuilt example that we had at Samuel Ledgard’s (FJW 938) was a fine example of the original sounds with further fascination from a good deal of wear – originally a Birmingham Corporation Regent 1 it arrived with us as a “Regal” coach with Burlingham bodywork (the rebuilding by Don Everall of Wolverhampton). It was a joy to work on but its raucous subtleties (if that’s not a contradiction in terms) didn’t filter through to the passengers – their loss of course !! When the new Regent Vs arrived further aural delights were to be enjoyed. These fine vehicles had a rather higher pitched and “purer” sound which disguised the already civilised and quiet 9.6 litre engines somewhat and gave a distinct “petrol” impression – those senior ones among us have experienced some glorious times which are not to be had on service work today.
Chris Youhill
Oh Chris. Don’t get me started again about STD Regents on the hills of Sheffield and Derbyshire!
David Oldfield
The place to stand, if I recall hazy memories, was the middle of Shude Hill in Sheffield as the many buses climbed towards High Street. The AEC’s, especially the “big bore” Regent V’s would blast hot exhaust across the central island, but the III’s would sometimes seem to have what we boy racers would call valve bounce. As for the tin-front Titans- was it more a sort of strangled wheeze? That may be inaccurate, but I do remember one Regent going up at full chat and a man saying to a woman next to me “that’ll singe tha nylons luv”!
Quite awhile ago on the ‘Q&As’ page there was a question titled “Ex Rhondda Regents” which questioned the number of AEC Regents that joined the fleet of Smiths Luxury Coaches from the Rhondda. The question was answered but as usual the thread took on a different direction as to whether they had an AEC or Crossley gearbox, this resulted in the contribution by David Beilby of the above vehicle.
David also provided the following copy, NTG 137 was formerly Rhondda 284 and is seen here in April 1968. The hidden connection to the “ex Rhondda Regents” question is that it was working the somewhat ill-fated Crossley Omnibus Society Grand Southern tour over the Easter Weekend. Ill-fated as the Society’s ex-Oldham Crossley 368, which was due to work the first leg from Manchester to Reading, had a differential failure at Stone in Staffordshire (the upside of that is that it was fitted with a reconditioned differential afterwards by Oldham Corporation). I wasn’t on the tour but Stan Fitton, the Secretary of the Society and tour organiser, was and this photo is one of his taken on this fascinating tour which involved visits to the Bournemouth and Reading trolleybus systems and Provincial (Gosport and Fareham) NTG 137 provided the transport for most of the tour. If anyone can tell me where this photograph was taken I would be very grateful as I’ve no idea. The fairground ride in the background may provide a clue and I think it’s safe to assume the bus didn’t reach this location through the arched bridge behind. Unfortunately in the strip of negatives containing the above shot the previous photo is of Oldham 368 at Manchester Victoria and the one after is in Weymouth. So it’s somewhere between Manchester and Weymouth!
Well that narrows it down a bit David.
The “Ex Rhondda Regents” question can be read here.
Photograph and part copy contributed by David Beilby
05/02/11 – 09:30
I can shed no light on the mystery location, but NTG 137 brings back memories. My original question was poorly worded: I probably gave the impression that both the ex-South Wales Regent Vs and the ex-Rhondda Regent IIIs were spongy to drive. The Vs WERE, but the IIIs were nice and crisp. I’m also grateful for the clarifications about Crossley’s role in AEC gearbox design and production.
Ian Thompson
26/03/11 – 07:30
I started at Smiths in 1968 aged 15 as an apprentice coachbuilder and left in 1978. I have many happy memories of my time there in particular the many characters that worked there. Alf Smith the Guvnor as we had to call him was a true gent, he lent me 20 quid from his wallet to buy a Lambretta which I had to pay back at 10 bob a week. I would love to hear from anybody else that worked there.
Barry Armstrong
28/03/11 – 10:30
Barry, I left Smiths in 68, so we may or may not have overlapped, but I’m equally keen to meet other ex-Smiths folk. You’re right about the Guvnor: until you got to know him he seemed a bit remote in his smart clothes, sweeping into the yard in his Jaguar, but he was really a very kind, decent man. A pal of mine is scanning hundreds of photos he took in the 50s and 60s, including many of Smiths Coaches. What we haven’t got are pictures of the characters, in all their variety!
Ian Thompson
21/07/12 – 17:11
I was on that ‘ill-fated’ tour but it was a long time ago and the old memory ain’t what it was. As I recall, after we broke down at Stone we had a long wait until a very comfortable coach arrived from Reading. This got us to Reading in the wee small hours and we changed onto the Regent III. All I can remember is that it was damned cold and I couldn’t sleep – unlike some! I don’t think we stopped again until we got to Weymouth, where we stopped for brekky. After that the stops (as I recall) were Gosport and Fareham, Portsmouth Corporation and Bournemouth, where we had a somewhat shortened trolleybus ride to that originally planned. Then it was back to Reading, where Stan Fitton canvassed b&b places, starting off with us youngsters, and had the job of convincing sundry landladies were were not Aldermaston Marchers. I think some of the oldsters had to kip on benches in Reading pubs, but again, memory fades. So I guess the answer is likely to be Weymouth or Bournemouth, but I honestly don’t know.
Brian Wainwright
08/06/14 – 07:29
The location is the old Westham Coach Park in Weymouth, as confirmed by the ‘Wild Mouse’ in the background, and by my wife, who grew up just along from the coach park in Abbotsbury Road, and as a girl used to cut through it.
Sheffield Corporation 1955 AEC Regent III 9613S Roe H33/25R
Sheffield bought 86 AEC Regent III in 1955/6 incorporating the new look front more usually associated with the Regent V model. The first to arrive were a batch of 32 for the B fleet numbered 1251 – 1282 with handsome Roe bodies. 1265 is shown outside the Roe premises at Crossgates, Leeds prior to delivery. I wonder if this was the first of the batch to be completed hence the official photograph? I always felt that these were a bit heavy looking with the blue radiator surround, I believe they were referred to as ‘bluebottles’. The total batch for the B fleet numbered 41 buses but what were to have been Roe bodied 1283 – 1291 were delivered to the A fleet as 736 – 744 and an equivalent number of the original A fleet order (bodied by Weymann) were fitted with lowbridge bodywork and took the numbers 1283 – 1291 in the B fleet. These were used to double deck the Dinnington services 6 and 19 which operated under a restricted height bridge at South Anston. Roe were quite capable of building lowbridge bodies (see other Roe product photos on this site) and I wonder why Roe didn’t simply supply the last nine as lowbridge vehicles? No doubt there was a reason for it at the time. Although this particular bus was withdrawn in 1969, 1251 and 1254 lasted until 1973 – at 18 years old, a fair age for what was by then a low capacity obsolete (open rear platform) design. All ended up with various Barnsley area scrapmen. A few points to note in the photograph: the difference in shading between the 12 and 65 of the front and side fleet numbers and the legal ownership by the British Transport Commission, also the missing fog lamp and the semaphore trafficator arm in front of the nearside front window.
I would like to help with the Sheffield J.O.C query regarding the 1955 intake of AEC Regent III buses. At the time of the order, SJOC required 41 chassis with 9.6 litre engines and synchromesh gearboxes. An important requirement was for the “New Look” bonnet structure. At the time, the Mark V model featured a revised bonnet design, but only with the 7.75 litre engine. To meet the Sheffield request, AEC agreed to supply 41 Regent III chassis, to incorporate the “New Look” structure. C.H.Roe were to supply 41 bodies to H33/25R layout, to a height of 14ft 2 1/2ins. The modified design featured a lower deck framed in teak and upper deck in light alloy. A problem arose when SJOC wished to increase fares on the category B services.The Yorkshire Transport Authority refused the application and the reason was that there were too many single deck services, some needing duplicate buses. The YTA suggested that more efficiency was needed, suggesting that some low height double deckers should be acquired. To this end Sheffield asked C.H Roe to modify nine of the outstanding contract to be built to low height 55 seaters. Although nine of the 41 chassis had not been delivered ALL the bodies had been built, some placed on trestles to await the chassis delivery. The result was that Weymann were asked to change an order for 45 similar Regent chassis, from H32/26R layout to L27/28R on 9 of the chassis. In consequence, Roe lettered the 9 completed buses to category A finish and the Weymann 9 lettered for the B fleet.
Keith Beeden
30/04/11 – 15:25
Thank you for the explanation Keith. Clear and concise as always.
John Darwent
30/04/11 – 20:50
Thank you Keith for that really interesting explanation about the highbridge/lowbridge body supply swap.
Ian Wild
02/05/11 – 12:59
Why haven’t you heard me pontificating about this picture? I’ve been away! Keith certainly answers the question of why they weren’t Regent Vs. Subsequent D3RV Regent Vs were almost identical to these Regent IIIs. It’s a shame that Roe didn’t build the low heights. The Weymann Regent IIIs and Vs were the nadir of the coach-builders art (stripped back and single skinned) and 1283 – 1291 were by far the ugliest non Utility buses ever operated by STD. Roe would have made a far better – or at least far more attractive – job of it.
David Oldfield
03/05/11 – 08:17
Wonderful looking vehicles these, especially in this Roe version of the Sheffield livery, and even after first repaint, when they acquired a grey roof. Perhaps the nicest sounding buses ever in the fleet, as well. Although not visible in this view, I feel pretty certain it was this batch at least that had a white stick with a small red ball on top, attached to the top of the nearside wing, to aid drivers when pulling into the kerb, considering these ‘new look’ fronts did not afford the same view from the cab that the traditional narrower bonnet and ‘stand alone’ mudguard arrangement did. Could these have been fitted at Queens Road after suggestions from driving staff, perhaps?
Dave Careless
03/05/11 – 16:42
Dave, you are absolutely correct about the markers. I suspect it was a Queens Road affair because I seem to recall a few, but not all, of the Weymann Regent IIIs with markers. You can’t beat AEC/Roe for me, but these combined the musical (pre-war style) manual gearbox with the throaty exhaust. The latter disappeared with the Regent V but there were odd members of both the Regent III and V Weymanns (such as 751 and 792) which had a different gearbox which was “even more musical” – almost like the crash boxes in Guy Arab IV/V and Daimler CCG6.
David Oldfield
04/05/11 – 06:35
Interesting comment David, re-AEC music. I visited Paignton in 1960 when most of the Devon General services were operated by Regent/Weymanns of, I guess, about 1950 vintage. The sound was neither the melodious pre-war type crash gearbox, nor the “wail” of the manual Regent V (I know I’m liable to get lynched for calling it that), though it is some resemblance to both. It was certainly not the classic pre-selector sound either. I never came across it anywhere else, though I guess it must have been a standard transmission option.
Stephen Ford
04/05/11 – 06:37
I don’t remember Roe lowbridge bodies of this particular style being very numerous on AEC Regents, of course West Riding had them aplenty on Guy and Leyland. But if the Sheffield ones had been supplied by Roe, we can have a good impression of how they would have looked from the view of UWT 876 in the United Services posting, perhaps without the platform doors, but very handsome!
Chris Barker
04/05/11 – 06:42
I share your appreciation of the fine standard of Roe elegance coupled to the inspirational sounds of the Regent 111 9613S vehicles.751 and 792 (a D3RV type) may have been fitted with hardened gear wheels, which resulted from the earlier synchromesh problems. This modification did endow a similar whine to the Guy Arab 1V.Incidentally, at least one of the three Regal 1V/Roe single deckers, OWE 12-14 received this modification to emit Guy type sounds. There is one more significant fact to report which relates to the 45 Regent 9613S chassis with Weymann Orion bodies, which were altered to nine to low height buses. Originally, 45 Leyland PD2/20 chassis were ordered with Orion bodies to the new “Tin Front” style. They were for the Walkley-Intake tramway conversion, due in 1956. Previously, the Leyland synchromesh gearbox featured constant mesh for 1st gear and Synchromesh on 2nd,3rd and 4th. After the contract had been signed and sealed, the Contracts engineer C.C.Hall discovered that second gear had constant mesh engagement, only 3rd and 4th having synchromesh. This was disastrous, as the Walkley and Intake routes featured some very steep hills and many of the drivers would be ex tram men. An easy change from 1st to 2nd or 3rd to 2nd was essential. Sheffield offered to pay extra to include an easy change 2nd ratio. Unfortunately, Leyland refused to provide this facility. The outcome was that the PD2/20 order was cancelled and AEC were asked to supply 45 more 9613S chassis, in addition to the 41 already on order. This situation was resolved by good old competition, where an alternative supplier was available!
Keith Beeden
05/05/11 – 06:48
As an AEC man from a boy (!) riding to aforementioned Weymann Regent IIIs and Vs on both the 95 and the 51, it shocked me to read in C C Halls excellent book that Sheffield were in fact Leyland operators who dual sourced from AEC rather than either an AEC operator or a 50/50 operator. As I’ve said before, old age and maturity have also made me a Leyland man, but definitely second to AEC. This Leyland lack of syncro on second was very evident on the PD3s (recently posted) when setting off from rest at the bottom of Meadowhead – especially with a full load. Interesting, though, that 43 self-same PD2/20 were delivered (with Roe bodywork) in 1957 and then 40 PD2/30 in 1957/8 divided equally between Roe and Weymann – the latter being of the type you mentioned in the cancelled order.
David Oldfield
05/05/11 – 06:50
It is interesting to consider different operators views on the ‘new look’ front from within the same county. Sheffield specified Regent III’s with the Regent V type front to give the vehicles a modern appearance at a time when Britain was emerging out of post-WW2 austerity. In contrast Doncaster, Leeds and Huddersfield bought Regent V’s but specified the Regent III style exposed radiator. It seems the view of these three operators was the very reverse of Sheffield’s. These three Yorkshire operators were sticking to tradition and apparently having nowt to do with modernity! On the other hand this being Yorkshire – was the Regent III type radiator cheaper? (Provocative comment from a Lancastrian – couldn’t resist!)
Philip Halstead
05/05/11 – 12:16
Aye, but we’re a rum lot in Sheffield – being on the edge of outer darkness with Derbyshire. Canny wi’ brass but appreciating the finer things in life!?
David Oldfield
06/05/11 – 06:44
Nottingham also went for the old look exposed radiators on its 65 Regent V/Park Royals (209-273) delivered 1955/56.
Stephen Ford
06/05/11 – 07:04
In reply to the two David’s comments on the AEC Regent 111/Mark V with bonnet markers, I can confirm that they were fitted at Queens Road works. Some drivers complained of poor visibility to the nearside when approaching stops or close passing. During the early and mid thirties, AEC fitted this type of marker on Regent and Regal vehicles. This knowledge would be known by the engineering staff, to be produced in house.
Keith Beeden
06/05/11 – 07:07
Leeds took both AEC and Leyland chassis with exposed radiators for ease of maintenance. It took a change of GM to bring in enclosed radiators on both chassis and only 20 Leylands were delivered with this layout. To the very end Leeds AECs had a polished bonnet an anachronism maybe but a sight to set the juices flowing for this (then) teenager. Absolute poetry in motion!
Chris Hough
11/12/11 – 07:01
what about MANSFIELD DISTRICT TRACTION? Nobody hardly ever mentions these buses,also very few coloured photos about.They shared the same depot on Sutton Road Mansfield Notts.
Newcastle Corporation 1950 AEC Regent III 9612A Northern Coachbuilders H30/26R
Not a very good picture I’m afraid. I got my PSV licence in 1967 with Tynemouth & Wakefields (Northern General). By the time of the Queens Silver Jubilee in 1977 I was with Armstrong Galley, the coaching division of Tyne & Wear PTE. The PTE decided to commemorate the Jubilee by using two buses that were in service at the time of the Coronation in 1953. This 1950 Northern Coachbuilders bodied AEC was one of them, the other was a 1948 Leyland Titan. The Leyland was in its original livery of blue and cream, and I think it was part of the last batch to be delivered before the colour’s were changed to livery seen here in the picture. The route ran between Newcastle City Centre and Gosforth, however, by 1977 the PTE had a shortage of drivers with an any type licence, so on occasion drivers from the coaching division were drafted in to fill in gaps. I don’t know who the vehicles belonged to at the time, but they’re still around and belong to a member or members of the North East Bus Preservation Trust Ltd.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye
17/10/11 – 07:34
Thx, Ronnie, for the nice photo. The body is very nicely proportioned, although it does give the air of being a lowbridge vehicle for some reason. Newcastle corporation’s livery was very attractive. I refreshed my memory only a couple of weeks ago when I visited the East Anglia Museum and 501 (LTN 501), on loan from Beamish, was doing the rounds.
Chris Hebbron
17/10/11 – 07:35
The post war NCB bodies were, like many others, notoriously badly built (structurally) and this was partly the reason for their folding up in 1950/51. At the last gasp, someone from ECW came along to try and resurrect the fortunes – hence the looks of these, NCB’s last, bodies. Alas to no avail. After NCB closed, Roe bought machinery and timber from the receivers. They did not buy the company itself which disappeared.
David Oldfield
13/10/15 – 06:41
Dave Oldfield’s a little unfair. NCB had problems with green timber but so did Massey to a Much larger extent and even (whisper it) ECW. It wasn’t because of failures with the product that NCB’s coachworks, machinery and stock in trade was sold, it was to pay death duties on the estate of the founder Sam Smith, the Smith family had to let go of one of their interests and rightly saw the coachwork boom coming to an end.
Stephen Allcroft
01/03/20 – 06:32
I was looking at the last bus from the Newcastle Transport and which was for Gosforth Park and would like to get the information of the route number which the buses was during those period of the 1970s and this help will be welcomed to get this route destinations onto my models required for the layout system.
Christopher Norris
02/03/20 – 06:49
Christopher, the commemorative route number this bus and LVK 123 were used on in 1977 was Route number 44
Ronnie Hoye
03/03/20 – 06:31
Christopher, I’ll give you the full route inbound from Gosforth Park, as its easier to explain. South from Gosforth Park into Newcastle City Centre, was a straight run down The Great North Road, which until the Tyne Tunnel opened in the late 60’s was still the A1. As I said, it was a straight run, but it went through several name changes. For about the first three miles, it was the Gt North Road, then for about two miles, it became Gosforth High Street, then back to the Great North Road. On entering the City, it first became Barras Bridge, then Northumberland Street, and finally Pilgrim Street. At this point the 44 turned right, into Market Street, which lead into Grainger Street. At the bottom of Grainger Street, it turned right into Neville Street, where it stopped outside the Central Station, it would then turn right into Bewick Street, which was the terminus. From there, it would turn right in to Clayton Street, then right again into Westgate Road, then left into Grainger Street, and then the reverse of the inbound route.
