Here is a colour shot of 1881 WA, No. 3081, a sister vehicle to the Ian Wild posting of 1882 WA, No. 3082 in June 2011. The photo was taken in the early part of 1970, though I cannot now identify the location. As John Stringer says in a comment to 1882 WA this bus passed to the Calderdale fleet via Todmordon JOC together with its two stable mates, 1880/2 WA. I always admired this ECW “MW” body style for its restrained elegance and excellent finish, well above the standards of some of the contemporary “commercial” competitors.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
15/01/12 – 07:21
Agree fully with Roger about the ECW body. Although I’m a Burlingham and Weymann man, I always thought the ECW Leopards were the best looking of the lot in Sheffield. [This ought to be tagged Sheffield JOC – they weren’t owned by the Corporation.] I went to music college in Manchester in 1971 – by which time the 48 was taking the Stocksbridge, Flouch, Woodhead route to Manchester. With the disbandment of the JOCs, although technically a joint route with North Western, by 1971 only NWRCC were running the mileage. 1968/70 AEC Swifts were also running the 48 in the last months of operation. I suspect the photo was taken on the Manchester side of the Pennines. By the way it’s leaning I’m tempted to suggest that maybe it’s leaving Ashton Bus Station?
David Oldfield
15/01/12 – 12:05
I well remember these buses along with the Weymann and Burlingham bodied examples working the 48 Manchester service. They used to have a 15 minute refreshment stop at The Dog & Partridge at Bordhill, a mile up the road from Flouch. During the 1950’s and 60’s my aunt and uncle kept this pub and I used to spend my summer school holidays there. Several times in the late sixties the friendly crews would take me to Manchester with them or I would go to Sheffield with my aunt for an afternoon out, we never paid any fares! I still have a letter the Sheffield General Manager sent them thanking them for the hospitality they had shown the crews and passengers over the years when they left the pub in 1968. I don’t ever remember it being a joint service with NWRCC at this time though.
Eric
15/01/12 – 12:12
The location is definitely Ashton Bus Station. The attached photo shows the same backdrop. The pub which is the most prominent of the building is the Ladysmith. The view has changed significantly with the building of a new civic centre on the open land in the near background and the complete remodelling of the bus station. The bus is former SHMD 77, later renumbered 108 and (as seen here) SELNEC 5068. This bus lasted longer in SELNEC days than might be expected and is shown here on 6th August 1971. It is an Atkinson PL745H with Northern Counties B34+27C bodywork. The present tense is relevant as the bus survives in preservation, albeit not very actively (I repainted it in 1976 and it never ran so adorned!). My previous negative (which I didn’t choose as it doesn’t show the background as well) shows it overtaken by Ashton 44, a front-entrance PD2 which is also preserved.
David Beilby
15/01/12 – 15:00
I may have said it before but it surprises me that this service hasn’t been restored. Presumably there was a time when it was unviable commercially, but today with vast numbers of people, particularly students, travelling across the Pennines and the rail service bursting at the seams, I would have thought it could be a lucrative service now. With Stagecoach having a presence in Manchester and Sheffield (and Barnsley too) the logistics are there although perhaps the fact that they are involved in part of the rail service precludes them from doing it.
Chris Barker
19/01/12 – 05:39
I’m sure the 48 wasn’t in the North Western timetable when I lived in Manchester (up until 1968), unlike the other two Sheffield-Manchester services, the (X)39 via Snake and (X72) via Castleton. Could it be that it never was a joint service, but was taken over by North Western when SJOC disappeared?
Peter Williamson
19/01/12 – 10:54
North Western took it over sometime 1970/71 following the disbandment of the JOCs. They were sole operator by the time I started my student days in September 1971. [A measly two round trips a day during the week.] It was part of agreement with some routes so that the Corporation could “keep” routes – even if they didn’t “run” them. By the end, I think the joint fiction had ended in fact.
David Oldfield
22/01/12 – 15:55
When the Sheffield JOC was disbanded, 48 became a joint route for the first time. The PSV Circle fleet list suggests that Yorkshire Traction became a joint operator, along with Sheffield Corporation and North Western, but, if so, this would just have been for licensing purposes as I’m fairly sure they never ran on the route.
Geoff Kerr
23/01/12 – 07:26
You’re absolutely right, Geoff – and I also remember the Tracky connection, but they never actually ran it.
David Oldfield
24/01/12 – 15:49
The writing was on the wall by November 1969. The 48 was still running, according to the Sheffield Transport time table, as One Man Operated service, the timetable notation of “subject to alteration” said it all. I have wonderful memories from the 1940’s of the 48 when it was not unknown for a convoy of 2/3 Weymann bodied Leylands to depart from the old Midland Railway Station. Tea and buns at the Dog & Partridge were all part of the treat. We and others did our family clothes shopping in Manchester after the Luftwaffe had done a demolition job on the Sheffield City Centre
Jerry Wilkes
30/01/12 – 16:26
Hi, I have a South Yorks fare book, issue 1, August 1974. It lists all the routes operated at that time. Is it of use to anyone? Now I have found this site, I will post many memories & questions on busses in the 50s & 60s. My dad was a bus driver on the 33, 34,35,36 bus routes out of Bramall Lane depot. He used to do the 12 Chesterfield route.
Andy Fisher
31/01/12 – 07:57
Andy. Another Sheffielder. Welcome. The West Yorkshire lot are a friendly enough bunch – but I think they still outnumber us!
David Oldfield
01/05/12 – 20:05
I have many happy memories of The Dog and Partridge !! Never travelled there by bus, unless we did so when I was very young and I have forgotten. However, when I was growing up my paternal grandparents had many relatives living in Lancashire, particularly around the St. Helens area and we always used to make a refreshment stop at that pub, in both directions when travelling from the Bircotes/Harworth area to Lancashire. I distinctly remember the ham sandwiches, which were, by far, for some reason, the best I had ever tasted at the time. They must have been good, I can almost taste them now, and that was 50+ years ago. Thank you all for mentioning this pub, brings back so many happy memories, and the last thing I expected when perusing a bus enthusiasts website.
BNW 603C was one of the 1965 batch of Leyland Leopards with WA’s specified centre-entrance Plaxton Panorama bodies. This is an official publicity photograph taken at Roundhay Park, Leeds immediately after delivery. Judging by the trees, it must have been taken in early April (it’s documented delivery month), and I suspect that the roof lights would soon have been closed after the photographs were taken. Perhaps this coach was to be entered in the 1965 Blackpool and Brighton Coach Rallies, so the non-standard chrome wheel trims would be retained until after the events, and then removed in favour of the standard red paint trim. As a final observation, why has this “Panorama” got the “Embassy” badge attached to the front off-side panel?
Photograph and Copy contributed by Paul Haywood
19/02/12 – 07:44
…..because it IS an Embassy and not a Panorama! The Panorama has fixed windows and forced air ventilation, The Embassy has (multiple) slider vents and no forced air ventilation. This, along with centre entrances, was a WA special specification for years. There was a gradual move towards standard Plaxton specification during the sixties. This vehicle certainly has Panorama moldings and ribbed metal detail but it was only with the 1968 F registered vehicles that WA received standard Panoramas. [From 1967, Plaxton renamed and labelled the Panorama as Panorama I and the Embassy as Panorama II. To muddy the water even more, the Embassy on a Bedford VAL was originally called a Val and on a Bedford VAM a Vam!] This was Plaxton emerging into it’s high point in history. Regrettably, wooden frames – common on all coach bodies – means that few coaches have survived into preservation compared with service buses.
David Oldfield
19/02/12 – 09:00
A most interesting feature Paul from our days at WA – I was unaware of all these finer details about Plaxton/WA specifications and trim. I’ve just hurried to my records and find that I never encountered this coach, but I did drive three others of the batch. I can well see the wisdom of removing the fancy wheel trims promptly, as the heavy Leopards were short on braking stamina as is well known, and any extra optional heat build up was not to be recommended.
Chris Youhill
19/02/12 – 14:06
BNW 603C was indeed WA’s entry in the 1965 Blackpool Coach Rally, driven by Eric Patrickson. They also entered BNW 633C, a Ford 676E/Duple C51F from the Feather fleet. But WA did not enter any coaches in the Brighton Rally.
Dave Williamson
19/02/12 – 16:44
One of this batch the number which is lost in the shadow of time was rebodied and reregistered by Stanley Gath Coaches of Dewsbury. Perhaps someone remembers its new identity.
Philip Carlton
19/02/12 – 16:47
Whoops! You’re right, David, muddy waters indeed, and I’m sure you are technically correct in what you say. However, to me – if they have panoramic windows, they are Panoramas. The last of the “official” WA Embassys in 1962, albeit stretched to 36ft, had small windows and a bulbous front and rear – totally unlike a Panorama. I now discover that WA’s 1963 and 64 intake of coaches with Panorama-like bodies were also badged as Embassys. What is even more strange is that, according to Plaxton history, the Embassy style was designed for lightweight chassis, even though the lightweight VAMs and VALs of the same period had “official” Panorama bodies! Thankfully, common sense seemed to prevail and the name Panorama-1 became universal for this style of bodywork, albeit with a front-entrance.
Beam me up, Scottie!
Paul Haywood
…..and talking of special WA specifications….. Woodgrain veneer/formica was the normal finish on both Duples and Plaxtons in the ’60s – which got darker and darker as the decade progressed. The exceptions were these self same WA centre entrance specials which had a very light non standard finish. I never rode on any but “observed” many on holidays in Devon and Cornwall. My hazy memory recalls a light greeny/grey hue with sunshine motifs – but whatever it was, it was unique to WA.
David Oldfield
20/02/12 – 09:05
The point is that from the 1963 season onwards, ALL 36-foot Plaxton bodies had long windows, but not all 36-foot Plaxton bodies were Panoramas. All the evidence says that until the introduction of the Panorama II, the Panorama was fiercely protected as a premium product by the application of three rules: it must have fixed windows, it must have a front entrance and it must be on a heavyweight chassis.
Peter Williamson
20/02/12 – 09:06
It’s strange how the space where the air scoop would have been doesn’t have a glazed quarterlight. Obviously it’s a coach which could be more than adequately ventilated, the trouble was, even on the coldest of days, there was always someone who wanted a window open! With regard to the name, don’t forget the Venturer appeared in several different forms but was it still the Venturer? The Embassys which Paul mentions with the bulbous front had a wonderful stately air about them (when fitted to underfloor engined chassis) the aristocrats of the road!
Chris Barker
21/02/12 – 07:20
Many Plaxton coaches of the 50s and early 60s appeared in three different forms at the same time, quite apart from variations year on year. These were: 1. underfloor engined with centre entrance (bulbous front) 2. underfloor engined with front entrance (flat front) 3. front engined with entrance behind front wheel. There were cases where these different versions had different windscreens and/or grilles, and once the Panorama got added to the mix, it took dedicated study to work out what was what.
Peter Williamson
26/02/12 – 07:24
Having just seen a couple of photos of 1965 Bedford SBs with Panorama bodies (of the type later badged as Panorama I), I must modify slightly something I said above: it seems that the embargo on “lightweight” Panoramas was lifted with the Ogle restyling for the 1965 coaching season.
Southdown Motor Services 1962 Leyland Leopard PSU3/3RT Weymann C49F
A few weeks ago this photograph arrived in my inbox with no senders name no e-mail address and not a word of comment. Well as it is a good colour shot of a very nice vehicle and from a southern operator which I would like more of to make the site more balanced I decided to post it. Checking into the information embedded in the jpg file it states that the shot was taken at the Southdown depot on Hyde Park Road, Portsmouth. Having just been for a drive down Hyde Park Road courtesy of Google street view I don’t think it is there anymore. The Southdown fleet unfortunately did not enter into my spotting days, way out of my area, so only know what most people have read. Anyway I still think it was worth posting, thanks for the shot Mr Anon (Diesel Dave).
Photograph Mr Anon (Diesel Dave) – Copy Peter
07/08/12 – 14:44
Sorry if I offend anyone, but to me this just doesn’t look right. For my money the Fanfare was a classic, but this looks as if one has been been decapitated and repaired in a hurry with whatever could be found lying around, from this angle the back window and the trim under the side ones look very Harrington like, and the end result is neither one thing or another, perhaps a bit more of the darker shade of green above and below the windows and also in the trim on the front may have made a difference. No doubt someone will shoot me down in flames, but that’s just my opinion.
Ronnie Hoye
07/08/12 – 17:40
Was this body style unique to Southdown? Never mind about the shape, just look at the livery – it oozes quality!
Ian Wild
07/08/12 – 17:49
Southdown operated 20 of these PSU3/3RT Leopards with Weymann ‘Castillion’ bodywork. They were delivered in 1962/3. The first 5 were as illustrated, and the final 15 had longer side windows, which improved the appearance somewhat. Not as pretty as the Harrington Cavalier or Grenadier though!
Here is a shot of this superbly restored Harrington bodied example. The bodywork is a short ‘Grenadier’ as opposed to the earlier Cavalier. This example was delivered in 1964, and was fitted with 28 seats in 2+1 configuration for Southdown’s Coach Cruises.
Roy Nicholson
08/08/12 – 07:23
I have to agree with Ronnie. It doesn’t look right. I have it on one side of my screen as I type this, together with a view of XUF141 taken at Wisley. XUF141 is, clearly, one of the shorter Leopards with Weymann body (Fanfare?) but, to me, this shows definite traces of Harrington. Hybrid, anyone???
Pete Davies
08/08/12 – 07:24
This is a Grenadier 3110 with a Cavalier front.
Philip Lamb
08/08/12 – 07:25
I see Ronnie’s point of view but the design does have some character and certainly looks a solid job. It seems to me that the front line bus body builders never seemed to quite hit it off when moving to building coaches. They always ended up with a dual-purpose look about them, like a ‘flashy’ bus. The Weymann Fanfare was an exception but does anyone remember those unhappy efforts East Lancs made at building coaches for Accrington and Widnes. At least they had the good grace to stick to buses after that!
Philip Halstead
08/08/12 – 07:26
Although the photo of 1156 was not my submission, I thought you might like sight of 1157, another of the same batch, but this time in the livery of Southdown subsidiary Triumph Coaches. I took the photo in July 1967, on the parking area adjacent to Southdown’s Hyde Park Road, Portsmouth premises.
Bob Gell
08/08/12 – 07:27
Ronnie, Yes, you’ve guessed – I like it. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder – which is why I guess Southdown purchased them . . . unless Weymann offered a cheaper “look-a-like-Harrington-style” than Harrington could offer. Those windscreens look identical to those on Bradford’s 256-270/286-300 batches of MCW-bodied Atlanteans (and “Manchester”-style bodies elsewhere?). Anyway, I prefer the smooth roof-line of the “Castllian” to the stepped roof-line of the Harrington offering, which . . . Roy Has a Cavalier front panel . . . why? Why not just produce a short Grenadier, full stop?? Did Southdown request this bastardisation, and why??? Perhaps because it looks better . . .
Philip Rushworth
08/08/12 – 08:46
Philip, All of Southdown’s Grenadier’s had Cavalier front panels, so I suspect it was a matter of standardisation. Southdown were renowned for specifying follow on batches in similar body styles to previous batches……….Probably to disguise the age of older vehicles before the days of ‘Paddy plates’
Roy Nicholson
08/08/12 – 08:47
First an apology for the fact that the photo arrived without the text, at the time I was having a self inflicted problem connecting the two. In answer to the comments made yes these vehicles were unique to Southdown and the second batch of 15 No’s 1160-1174 with the longer side windows did look infinitely better sleeker and more elegant (a personal view I know) this batch also lacked the perspex lights in the front dome which tidied up the looks.
Here are some B/W photos of 1160 at a very wet 1963 Brighton coach rally, this particular vehicle was also on the Weymann stand at the 1962 Earls Court show. Regarding Hyde Park Road the name was changed in the early 70’s to Winston Churchill Avenue and the depot name changed at the same time
Diesel Dave
08/08/12 – 15:08
A lovely batch of photos for me to enjoy, especially the Triumph one, which bring back Southsea memories. Certainly the later ones with fewer windows look sleeker.
Chris Hebbron
09/08/12 – 07:13
Are there any photos of the Accrington or Widnes coaches mentioned above?
Jim Hepburn
09/08/12 – 07:14
Apologies to Pete Davies for being picky but XUF 141 No 1141 like all Southdown’s Fanfares was on a Tiger Cub chassis. As Philip says the Castillians look a solid job and indeed they were just that and very pleasant coaches to drive, I drove for Southdown from 1969-91 at Eastbourne depot where at different times we had No’s 1160/61/62/65 all of which were among the six with only 45 seats which were low backed and leather covered in two tone green the rest were 49 seaters, 1156-59 the short window batch had high backed moquette covered similar to the Fanfares so were not as light and airy inside. These coaches looked and drove very much better than the following batches of Plaxton bodies.
Diesel Dave
09/08/12 – 07:14
Following the demise of Southdown’s favoured coachbuilder Beadle, the company switched allegiance to Weymann acquiring 35 Fanfare-bodied Leyland Tiger Cubs, bringing it more into line with contemporary BET preferences. The arrival, however, of the more powerful L2 Leopard and the availability of Harrington’s Cavalier prompted Southdown to renew its ageing coach cruise fleet with a batch of 43 vehicles of this combination in 1961/62, supplemented by a pair of Cavalier-bodied PSU3/3RT 36-footers. The same year saw the arrival of the initial five Castillians (clearly a relative of the Fanfare), also on PSU3/3RT chassis, of which three were allocated to Triumph, entered service the same year. These five coaches are sometimes wrongly described as 36ft-long Fanfares. That particular animal was never built, and if it had have been, would have looked quite different. A Fanfare stretched to 34ft and heightened to 11ft 9in was built on an LHD Worldmaster chassis in 1956 as an export demonstrator. No orders were received and the sole example, given the name Arcadian, was exported to Spain. What is more interesting about this coach is that it featured three ‘panoramic’ side windows with no ventilators – two years before the arrival of Plaxton’s Panorama! The Castillian, on the other hand, in both short- and long-window form was in the main a new design. It only found favour with Southdown probably as a follow on to its Fanfare fleet, The 15 long-window Castillians, which I agree make for a better looking coach, were also improved by their lack of ventilators, and would have looked even better in Triumph colours . . .
Philip Lamb
09/08/12 – 11:19
No offence taken, Dave! I’ve amended my records. Southdown is a foreign fleet to me . . .
Pete Davies
09/08/12 – 18:17
Granted the later version with the larger windows does look better, but it still looks like a racehorse designed by a committee. Harrington? yes – Weymann? yes but not a hybrid of the two.
Been away for a while, hence my silence. Back to quality over appearance – which is why Southdown probably bought them. I agree, generally, with others. I am a Fanfare fan and think the later long windowed Castillians work better. Shortly after, Weymanns closed down and all production went to Birmingham and the newly formed MCW. Now the Topaz really was a visual dog. The later “Metropolitan” coaches were a little better – but only available on Fords and Bedfords. Some were sub-contracted to Strachans. Am I right in thinking that Strachans also produced some Orions? On sub-contract?
David Oldfield
11/08/12 – 12:02
Nice to see you’re back, David, and that you remain concentrated on the quality/performance/appearance theme. Keep watching, ‘cos your sharp and informed observations, (especially about AEC), are always worth reading. It may be that quality influenced Southdown, but with due respect to Weymann, I can’t think that could have been a determining factor in a comparison with, say, Harrington. Nor, I suspect, would price, because although price was important, Southdown depreciated their fleet over 12 years, which minimised the effect of small price differences. Availability may have ben a factor, but it may just have been a matter of preference – beauty in the eye of the beholder again. Southdown’s choice of Queen Mary double-deckers, which many enthusiasts admire greatly, was not all that popular elsewhere. It was largely a matter of consistent overall fleet image as perceived by top management. I found Diesel Dave’s driving experiences interesting, too. I never drove a Southdown Plaxton – only a Castillian, which, (you may like this, David), I didn’t think was a patch on M&D’s Reliances.
Roy Burke
12/08/12 – 07:13
Thanks for your kind comments Roy but, including yourself, I am by no means the only expert on this forum. There are no doubt many others who could claim that laurel. Your observations are equally on target. A few observations. The Cavalier was a big improvement on its predecessor, possibly, therefore a holding pattern before the arrival of the Cavalier. ….. also, were they comparing metal frames on the Weymann bodies with composite on the Harrington? Finally, the rear end of the Castillian still looks like a rip off of the Cavalier – so which did, indeed, come first?
David Oldfield
19/03/13 – 07:20
Sometime in the early 1970s Hyde Park Road in Portsmouth was remodelled with some of it being renamed Winston Churchill Avenue. I was working at Yelloway at the time and, through our joint operator Associated Motorways (of which Southdown was a member), we were asked to include an extra note in the timetable for the Rochdale-Portsmouth/Southsea service for a couple of seasons which read something like ‘Winston Churchill Avenue Coach Station was previously known as Hyde Park Road Coach Station’. I called there once when passing through on holiday and I have a vague recollection of the coach station building standing all alone in quite a wide open space of redevelopment.
David Slater
19/03/13 – 11:46
You’re quite right, David, but calling it a coach station was stretching the imagination! It was a nondescript depot building with a storage yard and lots of bombsite land around it on which to park all the vehicles. The depot was not mentioned on blinds, merely ‘PORTSMOUTH – HYDE PARK ROAD’. Summertime, Southdown/Triumph coaches were stored there ready for the seafront tours.
Chris Hebbron
21/03/13 – 10:55
I can well imagine the poor state of the property Chris! Regarding the location. A comment on Flickr from ‘PD3’, a person who has taken lots of photos of Southdown vehicles including some Harrington Cavaliers parked around the Hyde Park Road garage, reads ‘The [Ibis] Hotel would have been next door to where the depot was, the land now has a building used by Portsmouth University upon it’. Some of his photos at Hyde Park Road, which feature buildings in the background, include: //www.flickr.com/photos/one Without realising it, I already had a photo on Flickr of the timetable for the Summer 1973 joint Yelloway/Associated Motorways Rochdale-Portsmouth/Southsea service which features the statement ‘Winston Churchill Avenue Coach Station was previously known as Hyde Park Road Coach Station’ //www.flickr.com/photos/two
David Slater
02/02/14 – 16:21
With regard to Chris Hebbron’s comment about Southdown/Triumph coaches being parked at Hyde Park Rd ready for Excursions, that is not really correct as the Triumph fleet was permanently based there, including the 3 Weymann-bodied Leopards. Had you visited on a Saturday/Sunday you would have found very few coaches there as they were either in the North (mainly) of England having worked Forces leave services on Friday evening, returning overnight on Sunday. While away from Portsmouth, they worked on the Saturday for local operators, so that fore example a coach working to Leeds on Friday would then be ‘on hire’ to West Yorkshire and work from Leeds to Scarborough or perhaps Morecambe on the Saturday.
Paul Statham
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
31/08/17 – 05:00
One thing one has to admit about the Harrington bodies was that they remained rattle free long after others had deteriorated. 1750, shown above, was most famous for being ‘The Albion Car’, piloted by Bert ‘Crasher’ Mills for the Brighton football team. Having renamed Hyde Park Road in the early ’70s, I well remember an indignant patriot sending in a complaint to Southdown House in Brighton. All that could be squeezed into the destination box was ‘Portsmouth W C’hill Ave’ and our complainant was incensed that our wartime leader had been reduced to ‘W C’hill’.
Pennine Motor Services 1962 Leyland Leopard Duple DP41F
Here is a photo of 5895 YG, Leyland Leopard with Duple body, in the fleet of Pennine Motor Services, then in Gargrave. I took the photo in Morecambe in June 1970. Note the SALOPIA vehicle alongside. This vehicle was the last of four of this style, the other three being on Tiger Cubs UWX 277, 6108 WU and 9712 WX, so close inspection shows subtle changes over the years. The next new addition was 240 CWY, which Roger Cox posted elsewhere on the site a while ago.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
15/08/12 – 08:06
Herewith the conundrum as to what constitutes a C or a DP. Yelloway thought they were too bus like and only bought one batch but most things, including the entrance door, make this look more like a C than a DP. The same thing befell the Sheffield Transport Leopard/Burlinghams which were DP because they were based on a modified bus design rather than the Seagull – but they were really just as much coaches as their Weymann Fanfare and ECW contemporaries.
David Oldfield
15/08/12 – 11:34
Interesting point, David. From an operational point of view, the issue of whether a vehicle was a C or a DP generally depended on three factors: use, seating and livery. As OMO became more prevalent, provincial operators realised that front entrances enabled relatively easy and cheaper downgrading, especially if the eventual fate of new vehicles was considered when they were bought. As for external appearance, a sensitive compromise was needed: too bus like, and passengers might feel they were being offered second best if they expected a coach; too coach like could mean problems displaying stage carriage destinations later in life.
Roy Burke
15/08/12 – 11:55
I’m not sure if it was still known as the ‘Donnington’ by this time but it definitely improved with age (like we do!) When it was first introduced, it had too many shallow side windows, perhaps a throwback to the old ‘Roadmaster’ design. This one, with just five deeper side windows is a great improvement and looks very nice. Yelloways were of the original design which would explain why they didn’t like them!
Chris Barker
15/08/12 – 14:47
The screen and front dome of the Donnington were shared with contemporary Willowbrook Viscount (cf Devon General). [Interesting how Duple recycled two Willowbrook names – Viceroy and Viscount.]
David Oldfield
15/08/12 – 14:48
The five bay version was known as the Donington 2 and was used by, among others, MacBraynes. I produced a resin kit of it in fact! The design was built by the Duple Midland operation and was effectively superseded by the Britannia, which was very popular and shared the same front grille mouldings.
Andrew Goodwin
16/08/12 – 07:33
The correct spelling is Donington with one “n” – the body was named after the Donington Park motor-racing circuit close to the Duple Midland works in Loughborough. Donnington with “two ns” is in Shropshire. As you say this version of the Donington (actually its third incarnation since the first prototype was built in 1956 – the first version was built from 1957-58 and lacked the “chain” motif in the front panel) is by far the most attractive due to the deeper windows. I’m left a bit confused by the comment that “the Donington was replaced by the Britannia”. The Britannia design was first introduced in 1956 and the last were produced in 1962, the same year in which the Donington was deleted from the Duple catalogue. Both models were replaced for the 1963 season by a choice of either the (Hendon built) Commodore or (Blackpool built) Commander. Dual purpose options then became the preserve of the Willowbrook subsidiary and were built to “BET standard” design.
Neville Mercer
16/08/12 – 14:24
Yes Neville, I assumed that the draughtsmen who wrote “Donington” on the drawings knew what they were doing! I didn’t actually say it was replaced by the Britannia but my choice of words was perhaps unfortunate. What I meant to convey was the relative popularity of the Britannia as against the Donington leaving the latter with fewer sales. As you will no doubt tell us there were at least three versions of the Britannia as well! Reference the comment above about Willowbrook model names being recycled, Park Royal also did this with the name Royalist though the second version was anything but successful, not helped by being initially built on a second-string chassis rather than a front line player.
Andrew Goodwin
17/08/12 – 07:07
You’re quite right, Andrew, there were several versions of the Britannia. The original version, brought to market in 1956 to replace the Elizabethan, had a curved waist-rail and introduced the “chain motif” to the Duple range. All of this first version had front entrances, but were offered alongside the Britannic which had a central entrance and retained more of the styling of the Elizabethan. The Britannic was quietly dropped from the catalogue in 1957 and few were sold. The second version of the Britannia formed part of a new range of designs exhibited at the 1958 CMS at Earls Court and shared many components with the new version of the Super Vega built on Bedford SB chassis. Basically similar bodies (but at that stage nameless) were also offered on Ford and Commer chassis. As far as I can tell from my own records the Mk II Britannia was only available with a front entrance at first, but from 1960 onwards a new central entrance design with a much more curved profile at the front end was also offered. The most famous of these were probably the examples operated by Samuelsons in London and St Helens Corporation. There were minor detail changes to both front and central entrance versions in 1961, but you really have to look hard to see the difference – a tiny destination blind incorporated into the front bumper is the most visible clue. By 1962 orders for both Britannias and for the Donington had reduced to a trickle due to competitive pressure from the much more stylish offerings from Plaxton and Harrington. Duple realised that it was losing its share of the heavyweight coach market, dumped the Britannia, Donington, Willowbrook Viking and Viscount, and the entire sadly bastardised Burlingham range from the catalogue, and replaced the lot with the Commander (with vertical window pillars) and the short-lived Commodore (with a “Bella” style raked back pillar towards the rear). Sorry to go on, but as you might have noticed I have a thing about pre-1965 coach designs!
Neville Mercer
17/08/12 – 07:08
David and Roy have a valid point. Shortly after I joined Armstrong Galley ‘the coaching division of T&W PTE’ we took delivery of 15 Leyland Leopards GBB 985/999N fleet numbers 85/99 – 86/95 were 53 seaters with DP doors, but still had the comfort and overall look of a coach, and 96/99 were 45 seaters with coach doors, However, 85 was a totally different animal, it was in actual fact the first Alexander ‘T’ type ‘rumour has it that one or two of the Scottish bus group companies weren’t too pleased about it going to T&W’ but back to the plot, the vehicle itself was first class, but with the best will in the world it was a bus with coach seats. A/G did quite a lot of hire work for National Travel,and a fair amount of contract work, so 85 was always first choice for that, it was later transferred to the stage carriage fleet, and I think it was sold on after that
Ronnie Hoye
Sorry, should have said that the 14 coaches were Duple bodied
17/08/12 – 07:11
Externally all forms of the Donington look like buses to me, except when dolled up with Britannia/Vega trim, as here //sct61.org.uk/ It’s amazing what a few bits of metal and an association of ideas can do!
Peter Williamson
21/08/12 – 07:41
Castle Donington (one n in the middle!). The village has long suffered having people mis-spell its name, just as many folk think it is in Derbyshire because of the postal address, but it is in Leicestershire. The Duple Donington body. Duple purchased the business of Nudd Brothers and Lockyer in 1952, renaming it Duple (Midland) Motor Bodies. Nudd’s premises were a hanger on the former Castle Donington airfield, now East Midlands Airport. Nudd had experience of metal framed bodywork, hence the Duple interest and the name of the design of the Duple metal framed body. The technology of the time may have resulted in the rather angular design and the small windows used at first.
Mr Anon
01/08/14 – 16:29
I found the comment on ‘DP’ v ‘C’ interesting, as I’ve never been quite sure where the difference lay, and there are clearly several ‘grey areas’. One of my main questions is how the Ribble PDR1 ‘White Lady’ Atlanteans justify the designation ‘coach’, at least among enthusiasts. The roughly contemporary Leopards with BET-style bodies by Marshall and MCW are always referred to as ‘DP’, though in terms of comfort, style or usage there was little to distinguish them from the Altlanteans; if anything the Leopards were marginally more coach-like internally and ventured further afield. But both types were effectively buses fitted with headrest seats and luggage racks, and consequently had the claustrophobic feel of being packed with a lot of stuff that they were not really designed for. Both were mainly used on relatively short inter-urban express services, at least one of which (the X43 Manchester-Skipton) was actually a stage carriage route at its country end. Doses it really just boil down to the double-deckers’ almost all-ivory livery, compared with rather more red on the saloons? But then in NBC days the Atlanteans (by then well past their unimpressive best) were given service bus livery, while the Leopards got the DP treatment! Was it just that the Atlanteans hijacked the justified ‘C’ designation of their upmarket cousins, the ‘Gay Hostesses’? And as for the earlier generation of Titan ‘White Ladies’ — though admittedly I’m too young to remember very much about them — how could anything lowbridge ever really be called a coach, however much chrome you put on the outside?
Keith
15/10/19 – 05:48
This coach finished it’s day parked along the workshop at Berresford Motors Limited in the role of mess room. I believe it was still in situ when the business was sold to PMT.
Potteries Motor Traction 1968 Leyland Leopard PSU4A/4R Marshall B43F
A pleasant Sunday afternoon scene in May 1970 outside the church at the Bagnall terminus of service 44 from Hanley shows one of Milton Depots pair of short Leopards. This batch of 20 buses was a welcome relief after the 48 Daimler Roadliner buses delivered in the previous three years. These short length Leopards were ultra reliable machines and ideal for the rural services operated by Cheadle, Longton, Newcastle and Milton Depots where they replaced early AEC Reliances.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild
24/08/12 – 08:19
Nice shot! “This batch of 20 buses was a welcome relief after the 48 Daimler Roadliners . . .” All I have read about the Roadliners indicates that the term ‘unmitigated disaster’ is too mild. How could Daimler have got it so wrong?
Pete Davies
24/08/12 – 08:20
Said in three simple words – ultra reliable machines. Never was convinced that Volvo were that much batter than AEC but Leyland suffered from association with British Leyland (Motor Corporation). I have great respect and affection for the Leopard, AN68 and Tiger. They may not have been as flash or quick as the Volvos but they plodded on – you trusted them to keep going.
David Oldfield
24/08/12 – 12:19
A pair of these are preserved namely 1127 – TVT 127G and 1128 – TVT 128G
Chris Hough
24/08/12 – 12:20
Pete. Everyone got it wrong apart from Bristol with rear engined buses – Daimler got more wrong than anyone else, especially choice of engine. As a “coach” man, my top three are ZF Reliance, RE and Leopard. I preferred the Leyland engined RE and, significantly, PMT turned to the RE – albeit late in the RE’s lifespan.
David Oldfield
25/08/12 – 07:40
David, Ta! I had an idea that most of the problem was the choice of engine.
Pete Davies
25/08/12 – 07:42
David, you can add Seddon to the list of rear engined design failures. No doubt because of his debt of gratitude to Robert Seddon in the early years of his engineering career, Geoff Hilditch, in his writings, is quite kind about the shortcomings of the Pennine RU, but it was undoubtedly a severe disappointment to those who tried hard to encourage competition with British Leyland. The only really satisfactory Seddon psv design was the Pennine VII, which proved to be a sound and reliable performer.
Roger Cox
25/08/12 – 07:42
Re Chris Hough’s posting of 24/08/12 12:19 about the two preserved PMT Leopards 1127 & 1128, here is a photo I took of them both at the Wirksworth Bus Rally at the Ecclesbourne Valley Railway on 1st July this year.
Eric Bawden
25/08/12 – 08:53
As always, seeing sisters side by side highlights the detail differences. In this case, the indicator displays, the “company” logo versus the NBC one on the front, the little ventilator under the windscreen . . . And this is just from a look at the bus front!
Pete Davies
25/08/12 – 10:54
Pete. There was another problem that everyone except Bristol had, as well. Heavy engines overhanging the rear axle causing bodies, and chassis, to flex (and sometimes break). Ingenious use of the Lodekka drop axle enabled Bristol to shorten the overhang on the RE and thus reduce the stresses on both chassis and body. The Seddon RU mentioned by Roger was, as much as anything, meant to be an RE clone to help RE operators out who were suffering delivery delays (a “British Leyland” problem with all their brands at the time). Crosville bought hordes of the things and were stung. The Ward Dalesman GRX was a further unsuccessful attempt. The Seddon Pennine VII, on the other hand was a “Leopard with Gardner engine” that “British Leyland” refused to supply to the Scottish Bus Group.
David Oldfield
25/08/12 – 12:27
And we all know what happened to British Leyland over their perceptions of what the customer wanted and what they were prepared to supply: among other things, we got foreign trucks and buses, and cars with traditional boot lids (even on cars with the hatchback shape) when other car makers were introducing hatchbacks, etc!
Pete Davies
27/08/12 – 07:53
A common consensus is the generally uselessness of early rear engined saloons Interestingly some operators managed to make the beast work. Preston made the Panther work as did Hull equally Leeds 150 Swifts had a normal lifespan. While others quickly sold them off as to fault prone or too costly to maintain. I suppose that fashion also played a part whereby if undertaking A was getting rid of the things undertaking B down the road would do as well. To my mind this meant that Leyland could pour money into the National and not further develop the other chassis particularly the Bristol RE which was streets ahead of anything similar from the Leyland empire.
Chris Hough
28/08/12 – 14:35
These Leopards were awful (my opinion) it was all down to the cab layout the windscreen was about 6 feet away so you had to stand up to wipe the screen also had a low driving position. The only good thing was they were warm in the winter. we operated them on the Newcastle – Market Drayton service (64) and the other problem was they did not have a AEC Badge on the front.
Michael Crofts
28/08/12 – 17:55
Well, Michael, I will agree with you wholeheartedly on the matter of AEC, but have to say that Devon General’s similar AH505 Reliances – ie with Marshall bodies – had similarly huge cabs with the screen miles away. So you can blame Leyland for the low driving position, which they rectified on Leopards after 1969, but Marshall are to blame for your trek to clean the screen! [I assume you were after an AEC chassis and engine behind the badge? I knew a coach operator in High Wycombe (Bucks) who ran a Reliance with a Bedford engine…..!]
David Oldfield
28/08/12 – 17:56
All Leylands had that problem, Michael!
Eric Bawden
29/08/12 – 07:23
Just noticed another difference, on the two preserved examples (1127/8). 1127 has sliding vents behind driver’s signalling window, 1128 doesn’t.
David Oldfield
29/08/12 – 12:20
We had three similar Leopard PSU4/Marshalls to this at Halifax. 358-360 (NHE 8-10F) came to Calderdale J.O.C. from Yorkshire Traction as part of the Todmorden takeover arrangements. Nice enough looking buses, they too suffered from the faraway windscreens and very low driving position. They had the original style of large Pneumocyclic gearchange pedestal which got completely in the way, and to get in and out of the cab seat required the skills of a contortionist. With the seat wound up high enough to see forward and reach the pedals one’s knees were rubbing against the underside of the steering wheel, and one’s left leg had a struggle to fit around the gearchange pedestal. They were extremely uncomfortable and inconvenient buses to drive. Despite the relative indestructability of the earlier Leopard chassis, I am told that the build quality of the Marshall bodies left a lot to be desired. Despite the apparent similarity of the BET-style bodies built by various bodybuilders, it would seem that some were a lot better than others, and that the Met.Cam/Weymann version was generally the most durable. Despite this, 360 was badly damaged in a collision and sold to a Barnsley breaker, but later it turned up in Malta rebuilt and magnificently presented by one of the island’s most enthusiastic bus owners.
John Stringer
19/01/13 – 06:12
Having owned a Marshall bodied short Ribble Leopard for almost 15 years I find it hard to believe that they were such poor service vehicles. I must admit there is a certain amount of dexterity required to become seated in the drivers seat, but once seated I have not yet found any problem with the driving position. Surely windscreens on most half cabs and other 1960’s vehicles are a similar distance away? Whilst I have not driven this particular bus fully laden, the steering could be entertaining, I find it a pleasure to drive.
John Davis
20/04/13 – 07:17
Re- remarks on variations with 127/128, yes there’s lots more inside and out, we have a boot but no doors, 127 has a disabled chair lift! 127 has 2 roof vents, 128 has 1, coach seating in 127, service seats in 128. The luggage racks differ, as do cabs, as 128 was altered along with destination box layout by previous owner. I cannot explain, or took the time to find out why all this happened, as owner/secretary of ‘TVT 128G group’ what I can say is that 128 has served us well over the 13 years we have owned her, no major repairs other than a radiator leak/broken jubilee clip/1 leaf spring but she’s a good runner.
Keith Broomhall
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
20/07/15 – 06:49
Enjoyed a couple of laps around Oulton Park yesterday aboard TVT 128G, one sighting lap and one ‘fast’ lap! Wouldn’t have been half as much fun on a modern bus.
CIE’s E-class buses were based on the 30ft Leopard L2 chassis. As well as being the last CIE single- deckers to sport a roof-mounted luggage rack, they were also the last single-deckers to be designed by the Company. They were certainly rugged-looking buses, which would no doubt have been quite at home on Ireland’s country roads. Early models had ‘single’ headlamps, but these were converted on overhaul to the twin-headlamp layout used on the second batch of buses (E81-170). The modified layout is nicely depicted here on E71, and note the almost obligatory advertisement for Fruitfield Jams. Wonder if it is still available?
Photograph and Copy contributed by Brendan Smith
30/04/13 – 17:06
Check out Wikipedia, Brendan: looks as if FruitfIeld are a founder member of a big food conglomerate led by Irish Jacobs biscuits, bought out from Danone: it includes Yorkshire Toffee! Much production is now elsewhere in Europe. The thing about old buses is what you see is what you get! (well except for AEC and Crossley… Park Royal and Roe… Albion and Leyland… Loline or Lodekka)
Joe
01/05/13 – 07:05
Thanks for the information Joe. I know what you mean about “who owns what, and where it’s made” these days. It can be more than a bit confusing. If you want to buy a British-built car, it may well have a Japanese name (Honda, Nissan, Toyota). If you buy a Vauxhall, chances are (Astras apart) it will have been manufactured abroad. Ford do not build cars here any longer, but do build engines, and your ‘German’ Volkswagen may actually be Spanish. In the bus world, the American Cummins concern builds engines in Darlington. Optare, once Charles H Roe and part of the old Leyland empire, is now once again under the ‘Leyland’ banner (well, Ashok-Leyland, once an overseas Leyland subsidiary) and Indian-owned. (Talk about going full circle, but hopefully this will provide much needed job security for people). We can probably assume that the new owner will not take the arrogant line with its customers as Leyland did under the watch of that comedian Donald Stokes. We all know what CIE thought of that…..
Brendan Smith
01/05/13 – 07:52
Why did CIE put DAF engines into Atlanteans? To be sure, to be sure. [Sorry!]
David Oldfield
01/05/13 – 07:53
First type of Irish bus I ever rode on from Shannon Airport to Limerick in August 1963. Passengers’ luggage was put on the roof and then had to be taken down again at the “border post” half a mile from the airport buildings as the terminal was in the Free Trade area and you weren’t officially in Ireland until you passed that point.
Phil Blinkhorn
01/05/13 – 11:45
The DAF DK1160 engine, an 11.6 litre derivative of the Leyland O.680 was employed by CIE when its Atlanteans had consistent mechanical problems and very poor support from BL. Both Leyland 9.8 litre O.600 and 11.1 O.680 engines were replaced
Phil Blinkhorn
02/05/13 – 07:45
As a born and bred Yorkshireman I’ve yet to see Clarendon Yorkshire Toffee for sale in the broad acres. The locally produced toffee is Farrah’s Harrogate Toffee made in Starbeck.
Chris Hough
02/05/13 – 07:46
Nice one David!
Brendan Smith
02/05/13 – 14:19
I just wonder, as the DAF engine was a development of the O.680, how they could have been so sure, or perhaps DAF just offered better service.
Seen resting in Tralee, this fine looking machine was one of 183 similar vehicles delivered in 1965/66. Mechanically, they sported semi-automatic transmission, air suspension and power steering, and internally fluorescent lighting and forced air ventilation were fitted. Interestingly, they had single curvature windscreens, rather than the BET-style double curvature screens gaining favour elsewhere at the time. That said, the CIE type of screen did lend the Leopards a distinctive air.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Brendan Smith
07/05/13 – 18:02
Presumably in the bus depot yard on John Joe Sheehy Rd. If only we had such interesting vehicles down here today instead of the unremitting diet of Scania/Irizar with a slight dilution of the one and only BMC (no, not them, I mean the Turkish outfit) school bus assigned to Tralee.
Phil Blinkhorn
09/05/13 – 07:44
Yes I think that’s the one Phil, if it’s the yard by the railway station (an ‘interchange?’). I sympathise with you on the lack of variety in Tralee nowadays. It sounds desperate, as my Irish grandparents used to say. Even in the late ‘seventies when the photo was taken, CIE still had quite a lot to offer the enthusiast. They could certainly muster Titan PD3s, Atlantean PDRs, Van Hool-McArdle-bodied Atlantean AN68s, Leopard Ls and PSUs, Bedford SB/MetSec schoolbuses, 12metre Leopard PSU coach and express vehicles with CIE/MetSec bodies, not to mention Leopard / Van Hool coaches, and the odd towing lorry converted from a full-fronted Tiger OPS. All that combined with wonderful scenery, friendly people and the best pints of Guinness in the world.
Brendan Smith
09/05/13 – 11:43
The yard is still there and the bus station building was redeveloped some years ago. “Interchange” is a bit of a misnomer as bus and train departures don’t tie up nowadays. The bus station is busiest on schooldays at around 08.45 and 16.00 when school buses abound – mainly from the CIE service fleet but augmented by private operators. When we moved here from the UK 15 years ago there were a number of Bombardier single deckers, VC class Caetano bodied Volvos – then a couple of years old – even ex Singapore VS class Volvo B57s as school buses. Since then we’ve had some tatty ex West Midland Lynx and a couple of Plaxton bodied VR class Volvos. Double deckers, other than the odd Neoplan tourist coach, are virtual rarities. There used to be a British registered PD3 at the local McDonald’s but that vanished in around 2006, leaving the Bus Eireann Bombardier open top double decker as the only “regular” visitor but even that goes missing in the rare years when Kerry doesn’t win the All Ireland Football Final. Considering the range of vehicles in the fleet, we have very little to look at.
Phil Blinkhorn
06/11/18 – 08:53
It should be noted that this livery layout was unusual on the C class Leopards with the original pointed roof ends (as on this bus) — all except two were all red with just the roof in cream. When the roof ends were altered to a flatter profile several buses had the cream applied down to waist level. Approximately two dozen buses of the 270 strong fleet did not have the roof ends altered.
Black & White Motorways 1965 Leyland Leopard PSU3/3R Harrington C47F
DDG 256C is a Leyland Leopard with Harrington coachwork, in the fleet of Black & White Motorways of Cheltenham. We see her at Southampton Coach Station – the “real” one in Bedford Place – on 22 August 1970. She’s on an Associated Motorways (remember?) service to Derby.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
03/01/16 – 10:44
256, Black & White/A M, Harrington. She would have been on the cross country service via Oxford that ran with connexions at Oxford with the Northampton – Bournemouth service crewed by outbased drivers.
Mike
07/01/16 – 08:36
If the Derby destination is correct, a check of the Associated Motorways timetable suggests this is more likely to be operating a summer Saturday journey which used the M5 and kept through traffic out of Cheltenham. It’s 09:34 from Portsmouth, 11:15 Southampton to Derby for 19:50. Non-stop from Southampton to Kidderminster apart from a halt at Strensham services. I don’t think Derby was served off the daily Oxford “mini interchange” – just Northampton and Nottingham by further connection.
Mike Grant
19/01/16 – 10:19
The timetable and the fare chart, where two things. The fare chart had routes that we could combine, often services, that include a mileage charge to be paid to Western/Southern National or other operators for running at peak times on their routes. This was so one coach would take the overloads for a couple of routes, often to cover holiday fortnights. At certain time of the year seasoned travellers would apply by post for tickets on direct coaches, from their area to the coast. Then one Saturday morning the wrong charts got printed, instead of route instructions being printed direct night service via Cheltenham ere printed. The police where not to happy, we brought Cheltenham to a stand still at 01:00 in the morning, private operators who did the same work for years made their only visit to Cheltenham to be told to go away. We did have a few deckers turn up with overloads or taxis, one decker came up from Bridgewater, when we thought we had got rid of it it turned up at 03:30, on the night service driven by a fitter with another overload, or the Red and White with 9 taxis following who wanted paying there and then. Monday morning when the traffic manager and the accountant went through the cash books the duty clerk and inspector had some explaining to do, or why they booked 7 rooms at Carrs Hotel for Ribble/Yorkshire Traction drivers who came down on overloads from various points who expected to return straight away only for us to use their dps to move the passengers on.
Mike
19/01/16 – 15:47
Yes, the Derby destination is correct. This entry on the blind shows quite clearly on my original, but please, nobody ask me to translate the windscreen sticker!
Potteries Motor Traction 1962 Leyland Leopard PSU3/3R Plaxton Panorama C48F
C920 was one of a batch of five Leyland Leopard coaches to the recently permitted 36ft length delivered in 1962. They were used on tours until 1968 when they were modified for one man operation which included fitting the roof mounted destination box. During my time at PMT they were allocated to Hanley Depot where they were reasonably suited to the longer distance services such as Hanley – Sandbach, Hanley – Crewe etc but not good on the more urban routes. My recollection is heavy steering, heavy clutch and heavy gear change – in fact they were just a heavy vehicle! The next batch of coaches were Reliance 590s, a much more lively and lighter vehicle to drive. (That should suit David O)! The photo is taken in the preservation era on 9th September 1979 at the West Riding 75th Anniversary Rally at Belle Isle Depot in Wakefield. The programme records it as recently acquired by the Potteries Omnibus Preservation Society – I wonder if it is still around?
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild
08/09/13 – 08:30
You know me so well, Ian. Maybe that’s the real reason SUT got 333? Did it escape from an intended batch of six for PMT? Not only were they heavy, heavy, heavy, they had that low cramped driving position and – care of gear ratios – slow. I commuted regularly on the X48 to Manchester and initially it was on North Western’s early Y types on the same chassis. Only once did I get the feeling that they could be good with a driver who managed to DRIVE the thing – keeping the thing in third at the CORRECT revs and storming over the hills on Woodhead. Being an AEC man doesn’t prevent me saying that the Leopard eventually developed in its later years into a good coach – but they never got the ratios right on the standard Pneumo-cyclic box.
David Oldfield
PS: The roof box looks like one of those virtual reality head sets.
09/09/13 – 06:41
David’s comments about North Western’s early Y types is interesting. I regularly rode on those as a teenager on the X5 services to and from London and from a passenger’s point of view they were certainly lively enough on the flat and the more gentle gradients. I also rode Western Scottish’s versions to and from Glasgow. The A6 over Shap and A74 over Beattock never seemed to present a problem, even when having to get around some fairly slow moving eight wheelers from Southall and Leyland which, when laden and often drawing a trailer, would really struggle. Given Ian’s recollections regarding the heavy handling of the vehicle, it strikes me as a little odd that North Western, as a keen user of both AEC and Leyland, put all its coach eggs in the Leyland basket from the early 1960s onwards with the Leopard as the chosen chassis.
Phil Blinkhorn
09/09/13 – 09:00
The only area where the early Leopards were superior to the AEC was that they went in the direction you turned the wheel, where as the AEC’s had a tendency to wander. But you’re right about the later Leopard’s David, however, an AEC Reliance with a six speed ZF would knock spots off any Leopard, perhaps that’s why BL ‘not Leyland Motors’ killed if off?
Ronnie Hoye
09/09/13 – 14:15
SUT’s drivers hated 333 [it was the same age and identical to PMT C920] for the reasons stated. The next Leopards only arrived, in the mid ’70s, after NBC take over. I drove a 1976 example with a subsequent owner and was agreeably surprised by how it performed. By then a higher driving position, power steering and the 5 speed pneumo-cyclic box (not to mention a bigger engine) had addressed a number of the earlier criticisms. Ian’s (and SUT’s) criticisms were widespread but the Leopard did have some virtues – but maybe more for the engineer than the driver. It was, to quote a Commercial Motor journalist who was/is also an operator, a reliable plodder. When I once put Phil’s question to a North Western driver he said, “Well the Leopard – especially semi-auto – is nigh on idiot proof but not every one can drive a six speed ZF.” Chris Y and Ian will agree that a ZF is not difficult if you drive properly (that is sensitively) but I know people, who ought to know better, who can’t! Lots of Leopard coaches had two speed rear axles. I always find these fun. There’s a sense of achievement using the splitter well – and this no doubt helped the performance of early Leopards. If you were a Leyland fleet, there was no doubt enough to keep you faithful – but I preferred the (Ribble) Leyland engined REs on the Manchester – Scotland services.
David Oldfield
10/09/13 – 16:30
I was still at Percy Main the first time I encountered an AEC Reliance with a ZF box, a Duple bodied demonstrator turned up, and those of us who were around at the time were invited to have a drive. We were all experienced with manual boxes, which on occasion required a bit of brut force and ignorance. We sat round for the pep talk, and we were informed that “You don’t need to grab the gear stick, all you need with a ZF is gentle guidance with the palm of the hand, and it will do all the work for you” Guess what? He was dead right.
Ronnie Hoye
11/09/13 – 08:30
As someone who worked for Southdown for nearly 22 years I had experience of various types of Leopard as well as an assortment of East Kent Reliance on South Coast Express work I have to agree with the previous comments. The Leopard most certainly required considerable muscle to drive the steering and all the pedals were heavy to use although I found the large treadle throttle was comfortable in use and as Ronnie Hoye says the steering had no tendency to wander unlike the Reliance which needed constant attention but was lighter to use. The two speed axle, which was fitted to all our Leopards both buses and coaches, did indeed help the performance especially on the O.600 engine models on the later O.680 engine models it really boosted the performance, although they were something that needed to be used properly to get the best out of them which sadly all too many drivers didn’t bother to do We had a batch of seven PSU5’s in 1981 which were fitted with a splitter box a much smoother operation, the main difference being that being part of the gearbox it changed as soon as the switch was operated irrespective of throttle position whereas the two speed being part of the rear axle would only change when the throttle was released taking the load off the mechanism, so could be preselected if necessary. Having said all that about the Leopard I still found the Reliance much more enjoyable to drive the 6 speed box being a delight to use needing only the lightest of touches to get the best from it which after the effort needed on the manual Leopard was such a pleasure the brakes were also much lighter and progressive to use. The engine always felt much more free revving and, more powerful, I only drove one semi automatic Reliance after which I still preferred the manual version. The later Leopards with 680 engines, pneumocyclic gearboxes and high driving position were indeed much better vehicles but never as good as the 6 speed Reliance
Diesel Dave
11/09/13 – 16:30
Well, I’ve said it before – i) ZF Reliance ii) RELH/REMH – (preferably 6L) iii) TRCTL11 Tiger iv) late Leopard. That is my hall of coaching fame – with apologies to Arab LUF fans. (I neither rode on nor drove any so I cannot have a view!)
David Oldfield
12/09/13 – 08:30
Couldn’t agree more Dave, the Leopard with raised driving position, 680 engine and 5 speed pneumocyclic gearbox made a very good bus or coach. PMT had 20 Leopard buses delivered 1962/3 with manual gearboxes which weren’t bad vehicles. It was the five coaches converted for omo that just weren’t suited to their new role. The contemporary Reliance 590 buses although better than the earlier 470s still had problems with cylinder head gaskets/cylinder liner seal failures and the hydraulically operated clutches gave a fair degree of trouble. Much easier to steer and change gear on though!
Ian Wild
12/09/13 – 08:30
No need to apologise, David, since we are talking about different eras. I have only ever said that I think the Guy Arab LUF was the finest coach chassis of its time. As for late Leopards and Reliances, the only good thing to come out of the demise of the Reliance was the Leopard with 6-speed ZF gearbox, which is what it should always have had.
Peter Williamson
12/09/13 – 16:30
The 470 and 590 lost AEC a number of friends – despite the 691 and 760 addressing most of the problems – but the ZF Reliance (especially 691/760 powered) was a thoroughbred. Leyland still didn’t get it quite right, though, Peter. The ZF used on the Reliance was an overdrive unit (5th was direct), that used on the Leopard had a direct 6th. [Rather like the strange unit used on the X reg Midland Scottish Leopards. Ostensibly a 5 speeder with CAV change (ie like Monocontrol and not the normal Westinghouse pedestal), it was more like a 4 speeder with a crawler below 1st. I drove one in preservation and it was odd to be able to start regularly in “3rd”.
David Oldfield
11/08/14 – 17:32
AEC vs Leyland at North Western Engineering staff at Macclesfield always told me they mistrusted AECs for always blowing gaskets. Leylands more friendly to maintain.
Bob Bracegirdle
06/03/21 – 07:09
During the early/mid 80s I travelled on National express coaches nearly every other weekend. They were mainly Leyland Leopard coaches, usually with 680s and the 5 speed air assisted box. Some did have 2 speed axles, but these were much rarer. The coaches had a. Huge gap between 4th and 5th, which affected there performance on motorway inclines, as the vehicle had to reduce speed to 50-55mph to change down. This was always where others coaches such as the Volvo B10s would come past. However, on the flat, many of these coaches would easily reach 80mph for long periods. I once travelled on a Leopard with an early TL11 and air assisted box with twin speed axle, that was the fastest coach I ever travelled on. It only dipped to 70mph on the inclines not 55 and powered past the Volvo models by 5-10mph. It also held 80 on the flat. Seems bizarre thinking of coaches going that fast, but at the time they would often been in the outside lane on the motorway going as fast they were capable of with the driver with his foot on the boards. The Leopards sounded great at speed, and growling around the London Victoria and Digbeth stations. Amazing times.
Dr Chris Davies
13/03/21 – 06:36
I seem to recall that the restriction of coach/bus speed limits on motorways was because of a spate of minor accidents, then a biggy, when a coach went off the motorway and down some some sort of large drain vertically, killing a lot of pensioners. I think it was near Bristol. I think it took a while because they had to get the whole of the EU to agree the limits and a fair time for vehicles with speed governors to come along.
Southdown Motor Services Ltd 1964 Leyland Leopard PSU3/3RT Plaxton C49F
These photos taken opposite their Royal Parade garage show one of Southdown’s first ever batch of Plaxton bodies five of which numbered 1175-79 registered 175-79 DCD were delivered in January 1964 on Leopard PSU3/3RT chassis. The bodies were to C49F layout with low backed leather covered seats, a sixth numbered 1180 and registered 480 DUF arrived in March 1964 but was of C35F layout with high backed moquette seats for use on a contract with a Swedish company Linje-Tours, a role it took over from one of the front entrance Tiger Cub/Beadles either 1128 or 1129, when the contract ran out it was reseated to C49F. I always thought that this style of Panorama body with a straight waist line was a great improvement on the previous model with it’s curved waistline although I have no aversion to curved waistlines as I still consider the Harrington Cavalier/Grenadier one of the all time classics of British coach building design. Southdown of course went on to buy many more Plaxton bodies over the next 20 years the peak of which I think were the 1820-44 touring coaches to C32F layout delivered in 1971 registered UUF 320-44J on Leopard PSU3B/4RT chassis an absolute dream to drive.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave
28/11/13 – 05:58
Absolute beauty; Plaxtons at their best. [1963-1982 to be more precise.] The Leopard, however, was at its best from the PSU3E to the PSU3G.
David Oldfield
28/11/13 – 09:57
SUT had twenty of these (ten each for 1963/1964) on 2U3RA chassis. They too had low backed “touring” seats with generous leg-room. [44 seaters as well as 48 in a 36’0″ long coach.] I have seen other examples with other operators as well. [SUT continued with low back seats for the 45 seaters on the next style of Panorama but had head-rolls on the 49s.] Was this an on delivery photograph? I see no Southdown transfers on the side. Was 1180 and example of Southdown’s famous 2 + 1 layout super luxury touring coaches?
David Oldfield
29/11/13 – 17:20
The low back coach seats must have been a mid 60s fad. At PMT, the 1964 Duples had high backs followed in 1965 and 1967 Plaxton bodies on Reliance and Roadliner respectively with low backs then reverting to high backs with the 1968 Duple Roadliners and subsequent Duple Reliances. Or were low backed coach seats a Plaxton speciality?
Ian Wild
29/11/13 – 17:46
Only remember them on Plaxtons, Ian. […..but maybe someone out there knows better…..]
David Oldfield
02/02/14 – 16:01
1180, the Linjebuss Leopard had ‘normal’ 2+2 seating with extra legroom. It is by the way preserved but with 49 seats. The Tiger Cub which 1180 replaced was 1129 which had 32 seats, 1128 had 30 seats and was used on a tour to Moscow operated by Morlands Tours. That contract was so important to Southdown that 1124, also Tiger Cub/Beadle was kept in Brighton to the same configuration as a spare coach.
Mr Anon
13/06/14 – 15:32
Low back seats were also fitted to the Weyman Castillion bodies (1155 to 1174 and to some of the 1700 class Harrington Cavaliers when reseated from C28F to C41F. As Ian Wild says it must have been a 60’s fad.
