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West Yorkshire – Bristol GO5G – YG 8986 – 306


Copyright Roy Marshall

West Yorkshire Road Car Company
1935
Bristol GO5G
Eastern Counties L53R

West Yorkshire Bristol GO5G 306 with Eastern Counties L53R body built in 1935 is seen at Bradford Chester Street Bus Station about 1950. It is ready to depart to Baildon via Canal Road and this information is clearly displayed on its “bible” indicator. For its return journey, the conductor or driver would release the side clips on the “bible” to enable the horizontal flap to be turned to show “Bradford.” The intermediate destination points in reverse order would also be revealed on the hidden “page” after which the “bible” was then re-clipped.
No doubt the crews welcomed the adoption by West Yorkshire of roller indicator blinds from 1944 onwards, though the operating handles were still outside and involved a clamber over a hot radiator but there was no more awkward lifting of a heavy “bible” metal sheet arrangement. I wonder what injuries occurred and whether there were any compensation claims with handling of the “bible” indicator metal sheets.
306 was withdrawn from service at the end of November 1950 but the “bible” indicators remained in use with West Yorkshire I believe in 1958 with the demise of the last pre-war Bristol L5Gs.
Can anybody confirm the date of the last pre-war L5Gs? I have only West Yorkshire fleet lists to 1955.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Richard Fieldhouse

27/02/11 – 08:39

Thank you Richard for sharing with us this wonderfully composed and evocative picture. I have departed from that very spot countless times when I worked for West Yorkshire at Ilkley Depot. We operated services 63/68 to Ilkley and Ben Rhydding via Manningham Lane or Canal Road, and had just one weekday trip to Baildon – out via route 59 and Baildon Road and return via route 61 and Baildon Green. I never had to use the incredible and ludicrous “bible” indicators and, quite rightly, they would never have been permitted in today’s Health and Safety climate – this legislation is often sneered at, and can be “over the top” on occasion but it was certainly sorely needed in those days. At a quick glance it would appear that the last prewar L5Gs were indeed withdrawn in September 1958. Of interest is the “Tilling Group” swivel radiator filler cap, retro fitted to most vehicles in place of the original flat screw down pattern. Thanks once again for a particularly splendid picture.

Chris Youhill

27/02/11 – 11:19

I know I am susceptible to nostalgia, buses being no exception, but this photo has it all for me! As a child, I remember the shape of the ECOC “G” bodies so well, as they contrasted vividly with the post war fleet. They lasted until 1952, as they had provided cover for the company’s “K” type rebodying programme.
I can see them now, hurtling down Thornton Road from Denholm, leaving clouds of smoke in their wake.
What a place Chester Street was for a young enthusiast. Day trips to Baildon and Ilkley on such delights as 306, and their “J” cousins, and stopping off at Harry Ramsdens on the way back. Most of all, awareness of contrasting shape variations amongst the WY fleet. There was that green hut, full of stacks of spare bible indicators, and, as you exited the bus station, at the little parking area to the right, bus backs of differing profiles would persuade you of the delights of BOVRIL, or else pose the question, “Have you McLeaned your teeth today”?
Wonderful memories of a superb fleet in its heyday!
Can it be 60 years since the passing of these fine vehicles?
Thanks to Richard for this post…. Any more WYRC Co. enthusiasts out there?

John Whitaker

27/02/11 – 11:25

Yes, a lovely picture with much nostalgic value. I didn’t realise that ‘bible’ indicators were still in use as late as 1958 – they lasted until 1955 in York, where I never heard them referred to by any of the older staff as anything other than ‘flap boards’. West Yorkshire must have been very fond of them because they actually converted some of the vehicles they inherited from York Corporation to bibles from blinds.
The picture indicates, and I assume from Richard’s description, that the hinge was horizontal and that the flap was raised or lowered. That’s how I remember them, but I have seen photos, (pre-war), clearly showing a vertical hinge where the flap was turned like a page in a book. Can anyone throw any light on this?
In addition to being heavy and awkward, a problem with ‘bible’ indicators arose when the vehicle operated on more than one route. It would then be necessary to carry another board, either under the staircase or, on a single-decker, lodged between the bonnet and nearside mudguard. York’s Circle route, with three different destinations, would require a change of board every hour; some photographs suggest an additional slip board, just showing the change in intermediate route points, but I really can’t be sure about that; however the problem was solved, it would have been a tiresome bind for the crews, no doubt.
Thank you again, Richard, for this great picture.

Roy Burke

27/02/11 – 16:10

A question for Chris, then…
How did you get a 5G like this one up Browgate into Baildon? With great difficulty?
I remember the ‘flap boards”on York buses: they gave the York fleet a wonderfully old-fashioned & “foreign” look that went with the rest of the place- and the white boards went with the white “lavatory brick” so often seen in York (sorry- “Yark”)!

Joe

27/02/11 – 20:03

Roy you are quite right – although in the minority there were versions of these boards where the hinge was vertical and the pages turned “book fashion” – I remember them well and they were around after the War also. Additionally there were other lightweight boards with only one narrow line carrying the ultimate destination in black and the route number in red. They were shaped like a letter “H”, with slender legs at either side and the narrow route line midway between bottom and top – these must have been far easier to “hoist aloft” than the full size multi-leaf monstrosities.
Joe, you’ll have the Gardner legal team after you!! Slow steady progress in low gears was essential of course, but the big hearted Gardners would go anywhere you know – however Browgate did admittedly often demand first gear. I have a wonderful piece of video which I took on an enthusiasts’ outing on preserved KDG 26. Knowing what was to come I positioned myself on the nearside front seat and the superb and highly competent driver chose just the right moment to execute a masterly change into first gear without the slightest jerk or click. I often wonder to this day how the GO5Gs and similar models managed to achieve Leeds to Harrogate in virtually the same running time as the present day despite having to tackle the ascent to Moortown, Harewood Bank and Almsford Bank and so forth.

Chris Youhill

28/02/11 – 06:45

Eastern Counties were also users of bible indicators although whether they lasted into the fifties I couldn’t say.
Lancs United had their own variant on the bible this was the slot in stencil which was a metal stencil which was back lit. The boards were dropped into the indicator box by the conductor. On double deckers the boards were kept under the stairs and would occasionally fall over with a great clatter.
Preserved LUT Leyland Tiger 114 CTF 423 a 1938 TS7 with Roe bodywork has had the feature restored and can be seen in its restored glory at this link.

Chris Hough

02/03/11

Strange how Eastern Counties produced a rather nice five bay body on this and then changed to a six bay design on later construction, as on the North Western K5G’s

Chris Barker

02/03/11

In 1934 Keighley-West Yorkshire took delivery of two Bristol G-types – K111/2 (YG 5733/4) – which were the first Bristols to be fitted with Gardner’s new 5LW diesel engine. Previous G-types had been powered by Bristol’s own design of 6-cylinder petrol engine, and indeed the chassis of K111/2 were originally to have been powered by this unit. However they were modified to take the Gardner engines during construction at Bristol, and were subsequently given chassis numbers GO5G.1 and GO5G.2, denoting G-type, Oil engine, 5-cylinder, Gardner. The vehicles were of further historic interest as they were West Yorkshire’s first Bristols and also the first Bristols to be fitted with lowbridge bodywork (in this case 52-seaters by Brush).
Further GO5Gs were delivered to WY in 1935 (including the imposingly handsome 306 in the photo), these as mentioned having ECOC bodywork – the forerunners of what would become Eastern Coach Works. Thus started WY’s long and happy relationship with the hallowed trinity of Bristol chassis, Gardner engine and ECW bodywork that lasted into the ‘Bristol’ Olympian era – only thwarted when Leyland short-sightedly closed the Bristol factory in 1983.
Regarding Joe’s comment on the progress of 5Gs up into Baildon, I well remember a WY fitter commenting that they might have been plodders but they were unbelievably reliable and very economical. His quote was that “they might be slow but they could pull”t town hall down on a pint o’ diesel!” He may have had a point!

Brendan Smith

03/03/11 – 08:39

I can certainly vouch for Brendan`s comment about the pulling power of WYRC 5LW engined buses. I well remember hearing each cylinder in its separate firing as a G mounted Baildon Brow. They could have gone up a house side without stalling! I have similar memories of 5LW West Yorkshire buses on Garrowby, and Hollins Hills!
The AWW batch of 1935 was less common in Bradford, but their reversion to a 6 bay layout was more a return to norm, with the 5 bay batch being very much an exception in ECOC output, a position which continued for the rest of Lowestoft’s pre war production. Strangely enough, photographs of the AWW batch seem to be difficult to find.

John Whitaker

12/04/11 – 05:00

Referring to Chris Hough’s comments dated 28/02/2011, from 1945 to 1950/1 we used to have our annual holiday at Lowestoft and we stayed at a house at the back of the town. The road was part of the Eastern Counties route to Oulton Broad and my recollection is the buses had “Bible Board” indicators. They were not as elaborate as the one in the photo but had a pair of what looked like standard side lights to illuminate the boards in the dark. So it seems they did last until then. Incidentally, the Eastern Counties coachworks were just down the road from the boarding house and, periodically, chassis/engine units were delivered to the works from the manufacturer and they were just that, just a chassis, engine, transmission and wheels (no mudguards). They were driven to the works by a man sat upon a box tied to the chassis and wrapped in multiple overcoats and scarves even in the height of summer! I assume they wore goggles because there was no protection of any sort and it must have been grim in rainy or winter weather. The Health and Safety people would have a major fit if that happened today

Phil Jones

19/04/11 – 19:14

Several sources quote West Yorkshire, and Eastern Counties as being the only users of the so called “bible” indicator. There were detail differences between the “bibles” of the 2 operators, principally with regard to the illuminating “side lights” as used by ECOC. Of all the (superb) Tilling Group (or Ex Tilling after 1948) companies, ECOC was, perhaps the most typical. Flat terrain enabled the extensive use of 4LW as well as Gardner “5”s, and vehicle life was maximised. All in all, it was a fascinating fleet, and one which I, as a West Yorkshire fan, would love to read more about!

John Whitaker

11/03/12 – 07:54

The Ipswich Transport Museum has 4 (unrestored) ECOC/ ECW bodied saloons all ex ECOC. (1 x ADC, 1 x TS B9A, 1 x L5G, 1 x Dennis Ace) A collection of Ipswich area ‘tin bibles’ is on display in the museum………

Eric M

11/03/12 – 09:00

Nearly a year later I have just read Phil J’s memories of the bare chassis arriving at ECW from Bristol Commercial Vehicles. Seeing those brave men drive off from the Works in a convoy of 5/6 at a time was a regular sight when I was young and riding my three wheeler bike to wait by the Works entrance to see them set off.
Exactly as Phil says, there was no protection of any kind except a canvas sheet in front of the pedals and that bare box to sit on..gosh it must have been horrible to travel so far..about 160/170 miles on A/B roads back then and on a writhing, floppy chassis with springs set up to take the body weight. They did indeed wear goggles and most wore “Herbert Johnson” motorcycle crash helmets and a scarf over the mouth to combat flies.
On a cold Winter’s day it must have been absolute misery for them. Those big overcoats were always a golden fawn colour..until the front got plastered in dirt and oil when they became “two tone” in a rather unusual way!

Richard Leaman

York – West Yorkshire – Bristol GO5G – BWT 806 – Y 345


Copyright Keith A Jenkinson

York – West Yorkshire
1937
Bristol GO5G
ECW H54R

It was John Whitaker’s amusing recollection, (posting of East Yorkshire Leyland PD1), of his agonising journey from York to Leeds on a 1935 York-West Yorkshire GO5G that prompted this submission. It is taken from Keith A Jenkinson’s excellent book ‘York City Buses’, (my grateful thanks to the author for his kind permission to use it). It is actually from the 1937 batch of 4 vehicles, but apart from small differences to the window corners, it’s external appearance is virtually identical to the 1935 batch. The picture shows the vehicle at ECW before it entered service, in the pre-WW II livery and is, no doubt, rather smarter than the bus on which John had his small adventure, but I thought he – and hopefully others –  might be interested to see how it would have looked in its prime. Even ECW were capable of small mistakes, however; the registration number is wrong!

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roy Burke

York – West Yorkshire – Bristol GO5G – AWW 27 – Y 327


Copyright Keith A Jenkinson

York – West Yorkshire
1935
Bristol GO5G
ECOC H58R

This picture was taken at York Station in 1937, and shows the vehicle, in its original livery, on the ‘Circle’ route – 1/8, Tang Hall – Beckfield Lane – Burton Stone Lane. The vertical line in the middle of the ‘bible’ indicator clearly suggests that the flap would have been turned over like the page in a book rather than being raised or lowered. However, the entire ‘bible’ would have needed to be changed some 15 or 16 times a day on this service – something of a chore for the crews.
To my shame, I have to say that, despite some of them being in service until 1952, I have no personal recollection of the Y-WY GO5Gs; the 1939 K5Gs, (and the 1938 K5Gs, after rebodying), were regularly used on routes with which I was very familiar and I knew those buses well, but I just don’t remember the GO5Gs. My only excuse is that Y-WY introduced Bristol K6Bs on the circle route – maybe in part because they had blinds – by the time I was about six years old, so the GO5G’s must have been used elsewhere in the system, (e.g. taking John Whitaker to Leeds!).
Behind Y327 is Y413, an ex-West Yorkshire lowbridge Leyland TD1; opposite is Y329, another GO5G.
My thanks to Keith A Jenkinson for his kind permission to use the picture.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roy Burke

09/05/11 – 07:57

There is something about the character of Bristol buses…old ones anyway. Business like, efficient, and thoroughly economic, and absolutely oozing with character. This photograph just sums it up for me. My Bradford based memories are of the lowbridge variety, so it was always a pleasure for me when, as a child, we went to, or through York, as the highbridge version was a rare treat.
Thanks for the memory Roy!

John Whitaker

Pontypridd UDC – Bristol E – HY 2391 – 9


Copyright Brizzle Born and Bred


Photograph by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Pontypridd Urban District Council
1931
Bristol E
Beadle H60R

Some time ago, I posted an item about a Portsmouth Corporation trolleybus, one a several which were lent to Pontypridd during the war. Hull did so, too.
Pontypridd UDC had a fleet of trolleybuses which, during the life of the system, (between 1930 and 1957) in total, amounted to just 17 in total, initially with 7 all-English Electric single-deckers.
These were augmented by two double-decker demonstrators in 1930/31, eventually purchased in 1932, one being an all-Guy BTX.
1945 brought 4 Karrier W”s, bodywork shared equally between Weymann and Park Royal, and four more in 1946, two bodied by Weymann and two by Roe. The last eight formed the entire fleet from 1947 to the end 1957, bar the two with Roe bodies, which were withdrawn in 1955.
The other 1932 demonstrator (above) was a very rare bird indeed, a Bristol E with Beadle bodywork, which lasted until 1946. In 1929, Bristol developed two six-wheeler chassis, the C and E types. Despite six-wheel chassis being popular at the time, only two of each type were ever built and, of these four, only the two E-type were ever bodied. One went to Doncaster Corporation, the other to Pontypridd UDC, both in trolleybuses form, the only trolleybus chassis Bristol ever built!

Photograph and Copy contributed by Chris Hebbron with acknowledgement to Peter Gould”s Fleet List website.

14/06/11 – 08:30

One of the two Bristol trolleybus chassis (E101) was fitted with a Roe body and delivered to the order of Doncaster Corporation (registered DT 2620). It ran on loan there from August 1930 until Feb 1932, when Doncaster purchased it as No 31. It had a BTH 60hp motor. Doncaster apparently encouraged the development of the trolleybus version of Bristol’s 6-wheel motorbus. But they did not buy any more, continuing to purchase Karriers instead for successive pre-war deliveries.
The other trolleybus chassis (E102) was constructed in 1930 by converting 3-axle motor bus chassis C101. This was fitted with a Beadle 60-seat body, and is the one shown as Pontypridd UDC No 9. It ran as a demonstrator at Pontypridd 1931-32, then purchased by them. It had a Bull motor.
In spite of their rarity, both led full service lives (Doncaster to 1945, Pontypridd to 1946/7).
Apparently one of each type (i.e. a 3-axle C-type motorbus and and a 3-axle E-type trolleybus) were exhibited in chassis form only at the 1929 Commercial Motor Show.
This is from information in Geoff Lumb’s “British Trolleybuses 1911-1972”, supplemented by “British Trolleybus Systems” (Joyce, King & Newman).
It’s probable that Bristol wanted to concentrate more on the motorbus side, especially when the Tilling-based companies moved to support them strongly when they moved away from the Tilling Stevens marque in the early to mid-thirties.

Michael Hampton

15/06/11 – 07:06

Thx for that useful additional information, Michael. The Doncaster one was even more non-standard with the Bull electric motor, a make I’ve never heard of! The wonder of rare vehicles is that a photo exists of them. For example, Portsmouth Corporation bought its sole AEC Regent before the war, which, typically, was destroyed, thanks to a certain A Hitler. I’ve never seen a photo of it.

Chris Hebbron

16/06/11 – 09:27

Chris, You may not have heard of Bull Motors but their factory at Ipswich survived until around 2000. Their products were often fitted to trolleybuses made by another Suffolk company, Garretts of Leiston, an example being one built for Copenhagen which has just been put in to service at the East Anglian Transport Museum at Carlton Colville after restoration.

Nigel Turner

16/06/11 – 09:30

I had a vague memory that Doncaster’s first trolleybuses were Garrett double deck 3-axle vehicles, with Bull motors and Roe bodies similar to those supplied in the same year based on Karrier E6 chassis. When checking this in Geoff Lumb’s book I mentioned last time, it turns out that Bull Motors Ltd were a firm in the same group as Garrett, which was Agricultural and General Engineers Ltd. Garrett’s were based at Leiston, Suffolk, but I don’t know where Bull Motors were located. They supplied motors to most (if not all) Garrett trolleybuses.
Garrett’s made trolleybuses from 1925 to 1930, when they decided to withdraw from that sector. This decision led to Bull’s supplying motors to both a Karrier-Clough demonstrator, and the Bristol for Pontypridd.
Garrett’s decided to withdraw rather than modify their designs, as although the batch supplied to Doncaster had similar Roe bodies to the contemporary Karriers, there were differences underneath. The floor height of the Karriers was 2ft 1in, which was 9ins lower than the Garretts. I haven’t been able to trace Bull Motors equipment being supplied to any other manufacturers’ vehicles.

Michael Hampton

16/06/11 – 10:20

Bull motors were fitted to some ADC chassis for Bradford, as well as Garrett and I believe this firm was owned by E.R. and F.Turner of Ipswich.

John Whitaker

11/06/12 – 14:29

A complete history of Pontypridd Trolleybuses was passed to Trolleybooks, the joint publications panel of the British Trolleybus Society and the National Trolleybus Association, two years ago. It should, hopefully, appear soon.

David Bowler

United Automobile – Bristol LS6B – 301 GHN – UC1

United Automobile Bristol LS6B

United Automobile Services
1958
Bristol LS6B
ECW C34F

Photo taking out side Scarborough railway station this is where United started there coach tours from I always liked the mystery tours. There was 1409 Bristol LS (light Saloon) built between 1953 – 58. United must of liked them, as they were by far the biggest buyer having 328 of them.

A full list including Bristol and United codes can be seen here.

I think the coach is from the UC1-5 series and they were stored at Darlington over the winter period, they were not used on the Tyne Tees service early in there lives. One I think gravitated to Morris Bros of Swansea.

Paul Fraser

There was a shot of this same vehicle in an issue of ‘Vintage Roadscene’ about two years ago. It was depicted outside Scarborough railway station, next to a board proclaiming ‘United afternoon coach tours leave here at 2.30 pm’. Standing in front of the coach is seen one Charlie Bullock, a long serving driver with United at Scarborough, and one of the town’s real characters. (For many years Charlie was the proud owner of ex-United 1940 Bristol K5G towing lorry FHN 923, which is now in the care of the preservation folk at Newton Aycliffe).

Brendan Smith

Another superb shot of a United coach in the Olive and Cream livery. One of these vehicles UC4 304GHN is currently under restoration with the Aycliffe & District Bus Preservation Society. I do believe that these 5 vehicles were used on holiday tours to Scotland and Devon when they were new.

Paul

01/01/12 – 07:11

Just a brief note to say that Charlie Bullock is still with us as of 31st December 2011 – !! I’m sure all bus preservationists will join me in wishing him a very Happy New Year.

Guy Stanbury

22/01/13 – 11:15

Sadly, Charlie Bullock died on 17th August 2012 aged 97. A link to an article in the Scarborough Evening News is here www.thescarboroughnews.co.uk/

John Darwent

22/01/13 – 12:29

Is it coincidence or providence that Charlie’s ride to eternity had gained a mournful looking grille by the time the Final Ride was taken…..?

David Oldfield

23/01/13 – 07:00

My partner and I were privileged to have attended Charlie’s funeral in Scarborough, and although it was sad to lose an old friend, the proceedings were far from being a sad affair. There was warmth and humour throughout the service, and the crematorium was absolutely packed – no mean feat for someone of 97. Charlie went in to the tune of ‘Sentimental Journey’, and we made our way out afterwards to ‘When the Saints Go Marching In’, just as he had planned. His coffin (which he’d had in storage for many years, ready as Charlie put it, for when he was “called up to Head Office!”) – was draped with a United destination blind and floral tribute. Charlie even managed to put in a ‘personal appearance’ partway through the proceedings. With the help of a pre-recorded CD, he thanked everyone for coming to his ‘event’, and told us that he was the advance party and that he would no doubt see us all again at some stage! His ‘Old Beauty’ FHN923 performed her duty as Charlie’s personal transport admirably, in the hallowed company of United Bristol L5G LHN860, Doncaster AEC Regal III MDT222, and East Yorkshire open-top AEC Routemaster ALM65B. I have never been to a funeral before where so many people came out with a smile on their face. A fitting tribute to Charlie, a busman through and through, with a lovely sense of fun right up to the end.

Brendan Smith

23/01/13 – 11:23

Brendan, how I wish that I’d had the honour to meet Charlie, who was obviously a wonderful and enchantingly “mischievous” character as well as being a dedicated busman.
Just a slight deviation from this Bristol topic, but I too have the greatest admiration for the superb cream and olive green livery of the United coaches – dignity with boldness, not easy to achieve and sadly almost totally extinct today. My happiest memory of the livery is from my West Yorkshire conducting days on service 76 (Skipton – Tadcaster). Connections at important points were always specified on WYRCC running boards and my favourite was when we were due to leave Harrogate for Skipton at 4.00pm :-
“Connection must be made with United car for Liverpool due at 3.57 pm.”
The United “CAR” was always one of the nine magnificent Leyland Royal Tigers, in olive green and cream of course, and it was never late as far as I recall !!

Chris Youhill

24/01/13 – 07:13

You have a way with words Chris, and “enchantingly mischievous” is very apt. Your comment about the ‘Harrogate Connection’ is fascinating – that really was customer service. Today, in this age of competitive competitiveness, such a sensible thing would be totally unacceptable. The Competition Commission would be down on West Yorkshire and United like a ton of cylinder heads. (Note: why is there only one Competition Commission? Alright for them eh?). Harrogate was a still a colourful place for buses and coaches when my family moved there in 1966, and United provided vehicles in red and cream, cream and red, and cream and olive green. They operated two Lodekka FSF6Bs on the Ripon – Harrogate 126 route, and various LS and MW buses and coaches could also be seen at points throughout the day. Also calling at Harrogate Bus Station (which we very nearly lost thanks to Meddlesome Maggie) were the coaches of Northern General and North Western, and the fascinating blue buses of Samuel Ledgard. A lovely time to be a thirteen year old bus spotter.

Brendan Smith

24/01/13 – 11:06

United and the NGT Group had a number of shared routes and return tickets were valid on either companies buses, in addition to that, in areas where several routes merged and they were joined by Newcastle Corporation vehicles, in the event of a breakdown the conductor/driver could issue a slip and transfer passengers to any vehicle. Silly me, I forgot to mention one very important point, at the time buses were classified as Public Service Vehicles and were regulated by the area Traffic Commissioners.

Ronnie Hoye

25/01/13 – 06:39

As you rightly say Brendan, Harrogate Bus Station was a wonderful place in those days, and there was a marvellous “class distinction” measure in force. West Yorkshire buses on the main 53 service to Bradford via Otley left from a stand near the railway station end, while we of Ledgard’s on our hourly departure set out from a stand half way down the bus station under a sign declaring “Bradford (S.Ledgard)”- obviously to remind us that we were extremely lucky to be allowed within West Yorkshire’s Temple of Excellence.
One other little gem concerning the 4.00pm service 76 to Skipton, on Fridays at least, was a duplicate to Burley in Wharfedale operated by a coach and driver hired from Wray’s of Summerbridge in the command of a West Yorkshire conductor.

Chris Youhill

26/01/13 – 06:32

Chris, your mention of Wray’s of Summerbridge (as it then was) reminded me that their coaches could often be seen on hire to West Yorkshire. Indeed they could frequently be seen resting contentedly next to WY’s Bristol/ECW machines on the forecourt of Harrogate’s Grove Park depot, especially in the summer months. Wray’s even had some Yeates-bodied coaches in their fleet (Riviera and Europa spring to mind), the flamboyant style of which contrasted markedly with the classic lines of WY’s LS and MW coaches of the period. Wray’s were taken over a few years ago by Eddie Brown of Helperby, and Wray’s attractive and distinctive livery was sadly phased out quite soon afterwards. Unfortunately, Eddie Brown’s livery is yet another variation of the bland ‘white coach’ scheme seen in many parts of the country, with odd bits of colour added to try and differentiate one operator’s vehicles from another. Eddie Brown’s coaches have swoops and swirls along the sides in maroon and orange, and it’s reasonably attractive, but to me it’s ‘just another white coach’, and lacks the ‘class’ of the Wray’s livery. Nearby Dodsworth’s Coaches of Boroughbridge show how it could be done, with their very distinctive and handsome livery of all over orange with a black roof. Simple, but stunning.

Brendan Smith

26/01/13 – 15:02

304 GHN_1
304 GHN_2


Copyright J.A.Charles

Thought that an up to date photo of one of this batch may be helpful. This was taken at a rally at Croft motor racing circuit last year.

Andrew Charles

27/01/13 – 07:53

Thank you for posting the photos Andrew. A fine looking coach indeed, further enhanced by that famous cream and olive green livery. The position of the rear number plate is interesting, and presumably this was specified by United. Usually on this type of coach it was located immediately below the rear windows, approximately where 304 GHN’s lovely scroll fleetname is. The polished front wheel nuts add the final touch – they are just as they would have been on delivery, and ‘very Bristol’.

Brendan Smith

United Automobile – Bristol LS6B – UHN 347 – UT11

United Automobile - Bristol LS6B - UHN 347 - UT11

United Automobile Services
1954
Bristol LS6B
ECW C39F

Another LS6B coach belonging to United this coach instead of having roof windows had glass panels depicting the service that it ran. The first panel says “Tyne Tees” the second panel starts with a “T” is 6 or 7 letters long it could be “Thames” and the third panel I am sure says “Service”. When I took this shot much newer coaches would of been doing that run as this coach would of been about 12 years old at the time. This photo was taken at Whitby in the summer of 1966 the coach is on route to Newcastle, its starting point being Scarborough more than likely.
For anybody who knows or more than likely remembers the place this photo was taken you are right there should be a very large street light just behind the coach, “I’m afraid it had to go as it ruined the shot”.

Full lists of Bristol and United codes can be seen here.

The lettering on this lovely LS6B did as you say state Tyne-Tees-Thames Service. Although most LS coaches were fitted with Gardner HLW engines, some operators did specify the Bristol LSW unit instead, including United. The LSW was basically a horizontal version of the AVW engine used in many K/L-types and LD Lodekkas. Although not quite matching the Gardners for longevity or fuel economy, the Bristol engines were quite smooth running units nonetheless. I seem to recall LS6B exhausts emitted a nice crisp bark too.

Brendan Smith

08/11/13 – 14:42

I travelled on the United service from Victoria to the North East 3/4 times a year throughout the fifties and early sixties. I well remember these coaches.
They also had Tyne Tees and Thames printed in black on the upper part of the side windows together with towns en route.
Overnight services had central blue night lights in the roof so passengers could sleep. I can remember one of the first changed routes journeys north so to use the M1.
Does any model manufacturer past or present have an Bristol LS in the United TTT livery?

Harry

09/11/13 – 05:55

Harry, EFE made a very nice model of a United LS coach in Tyne Tees livery a few years ago – 1005 (formerly UC5): 305 GHN. Although the genuine coach was an LS6B, the model was based on EFE’s MW coach casting. This gave the body a slightly less curved rear profile than the LS would have had, but nonetheless evoked the spirit of these fine machines admirably.

Brendan Smith

United Automobile – Bristol LS5G – VHN 898 – U98

United Automobile Bristol LS5G

United Automobile Services 
1955
Bristol LS5G
ECW B45F

Photographed at the Corner Cafe Scarborough is a bus version of the Bristol LS5G owned by United Automobile, there has been two coach versions on this site before click the Bristol LS link below to view them. United had large numbers of one man operated single deck vehicles as it had many country routes and a lot of countryside between the towns it serviced. Keeping costs down by one man operation and light vehicles like the LS using less diesel meant country routes could be maintained.

A full list of Bristol codes can be seen here.

A full list of United codes can be seen here.

Lovely to see this excellent picture. United did indeed have many Bristol LS types on country routes before they gave way to the later MW. I have heard it said that wherever you were – from Berwick-on-Tweed all the way down to Bridlington – a United LS was certain to pull up at your bus stop, given time!

Nice also to see the Corner Cafe. It has been a favourite image on Scarborough postcards throughout the decades – nearly always with a United vehicle parked at the terminus nearby! Sadly, when I visited the resort last autumn, the cafe had finally been demolished to make way for a new development of flats. The end of an era indeed.

Dorsetcol

United Automobile – Bristol K6B – NHN 906 – H6

United Automobile Bristol K6B & SUL4A

United Automobile Services
1950
Bristol K6B
ECW H30/26R 

Here we have a line up of three United Automobile buses in Scarborough bus station. the one in the centre is as the specification above having a Bristol AVW 8.1 litre six cylinder diesel engine. In 1965 all United double decker buses had the Bristol engine, 20 had been converted from Gardner 5LW engine I think they needed the power of the Bristol engine.
The single decker on the left is a 1965 Bristol SUL4A registration CHN 3C fleet number S3 with an ECW B36F body. I think United only had five of these lightweight vehicles mainly used on lightly trafficked routes. There was two types of Bristol SU the SUS (Small Underfloor Short) and the SUL (Small Underfloor Long) both versions were powered by an Albion 4.1 litre, four cylinder diesel engine and had a 5 speed synchromesh gearbox
The bus on the right or should I say half a bus is a 1956 Bristol LS5G registration 637 CHN fleet number U237 with an ECW B41F body. There is a much better shot of a United Bristol LSG here.

28/10/15 – 13:22

NHN906 was the last surviving Bristol K6B in the United fleet. There were half a dozen of them at Scarborough for many years for use on the town services there. After they were displaced by new FLFs in the mid-sixties, they moved north to Northumberland. BH1 &2 (NHN 901/2) went to Whitley Bay where they were mainly used on the Whitley Bay town service. BH3-6 (NHN 903-6) went to Ashington. When United renumbered their fleet into an all numerical system at the beginning of 1969, there were only two survivors, BH1 & 6 which became 51 & 52. NHN 901 probably never operated with it’s new number. It was still in service in December 1968, but a few days into the new year, I noted that it was parked out of use behind the depot at Whitley Bay. NHN906 at continued for a few more months at Ashington. I occasionally saw it in the 444 from Bedlington to Ashington via North Blyth. It also sometimes appeared as a substitute for an FLF on the Newcastle services. It appears to have been taken out of service in June 1969.

John Gibson

29/10/15 – 06:21

Small correction to the original text. The SU had a five speed constant mesh (not synchromesh) gearbox. Behind the apparent uniformity of vehicle types in the Tilling fleets of the time lay a difference between operators in the engine choice. Some would not countenance anything other than a Gardner in double deck and large saloon orders. Others were happy to accept the Bristol engine which was cheaper to buy and speedier in delivery. Gardners were highly sought after by many manufacturers, and output was not particularly high. In retrospect, it testifies to the ultra conservative iron grip that Hugh Gardner maintained upon the company that production methods barely altered for over 50 years from the introduction of the LW series in 1931. Given the apparent insatiable demand for the Patricroft products, Gardner rested on its laurels, and no real effort to increase output was properly addressed. Back then, the idea that Gardner would ultimately cease to exist was inconceivable.

Roger Cox

Mansfield District – Bristol LS6G – PNN 774 – 205

Mansfield District - Bristol LS6G - PNN 774 - 205

Mansfield District Traction Company Limited
1954
Bristol LS6G
ECW C39F

This shot is a touch on the yellow side but I think it is worth posting as this vehicle had quite a history having had six owners in its lifetime that I have been able to find out about.

Thanks to the Bristol SU website for the following information.

06/54 –  Mansfield District Traction fleet no 205

01/68 –  Eastern Counties Omnibus fleet no LS998

02/72 –  Gosport & Fareham Omnibus fleet no 33

02/74 –  North Downs Rural Transport

07/74 –  Ives Weston-on-Trent

02/75 –  Kingfisher Weston-on-Trent

02/76 –  Out of service I presume it went to scrap at this point although I could be wrong, if I am please leave a comment.
Either way just short of 22 years service was a good innings, just goes to show how well built buses were back then “they don’t build them like that anymore I’m afraid”. It would be interesting to know how many miles were on the clock and whether it still had its original engine even if it had been rebuilt a few times.

To view a list of Bristol vehicle abbreviations click here.

The longevity of a PSV of this era was of course determined by the willingness and capability of the operator to prepare the vehicle for its’ CoF examination.
Buses didn’t have a conventional MoT as they now do, instead the bus came new with a 7 year CoF at the expiry of which a recertification was required. The length of the next CoF was determined by the work done to the bus in preparation for the inspection.
Most big operators brought the buses into their central works and overhauled them leading to the issue of a long second ticket after which the cycle was repeated with the tickets getting shorter each time.
The introduction of freedom from defect type MoT’s made this system obsolete

Andrew

12/11/11 – 06:17

I was the Managing Director of Kingfisher Coaches Ltd, and feel most embarrassed to confirm that Bristol MW PNN 774 was sent for scrap on my orders. If only I  had realised that it was so interesting to so many enthusiasts I would have donated it gladly. It was running perfectly well and had given us outstanding service, but it was almost out of C.O.F. and the upholstery was very shabby. But the reason for quick disposal was the D.O.E. examiner was on my back wanting to inspect it and not being very popular with him he did not approve of any bus or coach over 10 years old.
Sorry folks.

Robert K. Walker

12/11/11 – 14:47

In an old British Transport production ‘A Ticket to Ride’ made in 1953, one of the films is about visiting the Peak District, does anyone know if the MW coach shown a few times around Ladybower Reservoir and at the start leaving Grindleford for Hathersage is a Midland General or a Mansfield District vehicle, there are also some other shots of North Western saloons both in Matlock, then passing the winking man rock above Leek and in Buxton, quite a good film.

Roger Broughton

13/11/11 – 07:56

One unusual feature about Mansfield District was that they took over an independent in 1958 which gave them three Duple bodied AEC Reliances which had originated with Creamline of Bordon. I believe that these may have been the first Reliances to enter a Tilling fleet. Even though Mansfield District was a majority AEC fleet at the time, they didn’t last that long, I’ve often thought they must have been superior to the LS’s as coaches, but perhaps MDT didn’t like the thought of having third hand vehicles in the fleet!

Chris Barker

13/11/11 – 10:52

Shrug off your guilt, Robert, you weren’t to know. Preserved buses, like all memorabilia, often survive as much on pure luck as planning. But don’t go out alone on dark nights for a few weeks!

Chris Hebbron

14/11/11 – 07:58

In the early to mid 1970s I used to work for North Downs at weekends, and drove this LS from time to time. I recall that it was quite a nice machine, and tackled the climb on the A25 up to Newlands Corner in fine style. I don’t agree that the Reliance with the AH470 would have been a better coach – the Gardner had much better torque characteristics than the AEC, which permitted higher gearing to offset the limited 1700rpm governed engine speed, and both types had five speed synchromesh gearboxes.

Roger Cox

14/11/11 – 17:51

That is a very interesting list Stephen, because I believe that the original routes were simply 100 up for town services and 200 up for ‘country area’ routes. The others were a result of takeovers, 1&7, 2 and 3 were ex Ebor, who used these numbers, 4 was ex Bevan and Barker, who didn’t. Some time after this list, some numbers in the 70’s were added as a result of an agreement with East Midland to co-ordinate services on the Mansfield – Warsop – Shirebrook road, hence 4 disappeared.
One thing I found recently among my possessions was a complete list of destinations from an MDT blind and also a complete list of via points which I achieved (from a Lodekka) by stepping up, turning the handle, stepping down to write, then repeating the process one display at a time! Unfortunately I wasn’t quite sure which routes some of them appertained to although some town services were so short, they didn’t warrant a via point.

Chris Barker

15/11/11 – 07:10

Picking up on Roger’s point, here is a widespread belief that Gardner engines didn’t make good coaches, but I wonder if it’s more that both designing them and driving them required a different mindset. Most coaches get into top gear relatively early and then achieve high speed by revving the engine faster than they would in the intermediate gears. But I recently had a ride on the preserved ex-Eastern Scottish Alexander M type Seddon Pennine 7, which was a revelation. The 6HLXB engine is governed at 1850rpm. Top gear (6th) came in at what seemed to be about 62mph, and according to Wikipedia the theoretical top speed of these was 87!

Peter Williamson

15/11/11 – 15:59

Although I personally prefer the RELH6L the RELH6G was a superb beast. I have ploughed the motorways as a passenger of many RELH6Gs and they were always man enough for the job.

David Oldfield

16/11/11 – 07:27

On the subject of Gardner engines, Cambus/Viscount (now part of Stagecoach) where I worked for a while in the 1990s, had a trio of 1988 vintage Optare bodied Olympians powered by the turbocharged 6LXCT engine. One, E502 LFL, was allocated to Oundle depot for the X65 Peterborough – Northampton service, but when it went into Peterborough for overhaul, it occasionally found its way on to other services in that city before it went back to its proper home. I well recollect a few occasions of driving this bus on the 351 service between Peterborough and Huntingdon, which followed the old dual carriageway A1 (now obliterated by the four lane A1M). This vehicle, which had the Leyland G2 gearbox, could reach an indicated speed of 70mph without great difficulty, though stopping the thing was altogether another matter in which prayer played a part!

Roger Cox

16/11/11 – 07:27

I should point out that my comment about MDT’s acquired Reliances was more in relation to their internal appeal rather than their mechanical propensities! However, since the discussion has moved this way, it would seem appropriate to mention that Mansfield’s sister company, Midland General took three RELH6G’s in 1964, registered 1384 -1386 R. I think there has been confusion about their classification ever since which I will attempt to put right. 1385/1386 R had dual purpose seats identical to their DP bus shell MW’s, also a mixture of sliding and hopper ventilators on each side window and semi-automatic transmission, they were officially DP51F. 1384 R, however was a very different machine, it had 49 coach seats, fixed side windows and forced air ventilation and a manual gearbox. Now they may have been delivered all same and this one altered later by MGO, I don’t know, but I was fortunate enough to travel on it a couple of times and boy could it go! The ride was exhilarating to say the least and amazingly quiet too! Does anyone know if there were many other manual box RE’s? In my humble opinion, the ECW coach bodied Bristol RE, when fitted with it’s very ample destination display, electric two piece doors and wrap-around screens was one of the finest vehicles ever to run on British roads, leaving out top link coaching work but for motorway express duties, never bettered even to this day!

Chris Barker

16/11/11 – 16:07

All early REs were manual, semi-autos only came in with the Series 2 (allowing for a few at the changeover). The early RELH/ECW (most of which were Gardners) were unassailable for their quiet, smooth ride – a perfect long distance coach.

David Oldfield

14/06/12 – 18:22

Roger Broughton asks about the bus in the British Transport Film. It’s Mansfield District 201 (PNN 770) from the same 1954 batch as the above vehicle.

Berisford Jones

I can see a rather good question coming in here.

Southern National – Bristol LS – OTT 98 – 1299

Southern National - Bristol LS - OTT 98 - 1299

Southern National Omnibus Company
1953
Bristol LS6G
ECW C41F

Seen heading along York Place, Harrogate at the end of a Trans-Pennine run is Southern National 1299 (OTT 98), a 1953 Bristol LS6G with ECW C41F coachwork. Resplendent in iconic Royal Blue livery, this coach was part of the last batch to be built with the traditional Royal Blue roof-mounted luggage rack, which was accessed by a set of foldaway steps at the rear of the vehicle. It is a fine example of the underfloor-engined Royal Blue fleet operational in the 1950’s and 1960’s, and it is good to see 1299 wearing its original ‘dark roof’ version of the livery once again. (In 1958, with the arrival of the MW coaches, the livery was altered to a half blue/half cream layout, with dark blue up to waist rail level, and cream above). The 1953 batch of coaches for operation on Royal Blue services were also the last to display ‘Royal Blue Coach Service’ illuminated panels above the side windows. Subsequent deliveries of LS and MW coaches sported the more usual curved roof glasses in the cant rail panels instead.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Brendan Smith

12/01/14 – 07:47

Despite the registration there was nothing OTT about this. Rather understated luxury and quality with the 6LW offering a long legged, relaxed, lope in the pre motorway era.

David Oldfield

12/01/14 – 11:12

Thanks for posting, Brendan. I have read in different places of the shape caused by the presence of the rooftop luggage rack as being “Camel Back”. Rather flattering to a camel, perhaps!

Pete Davies

12/01/14 – 13:04

There was always something special about Royal Blue coaches and these last-gasp versions of the traditional style are no exception. One point, were the roof racks ever used?

Chris Hebbron

13/01/14 – 08:44

OTT 43

I thought you might like to add this picture to the current OTT 98 thread as it shows a similar preserved vehicle but in the cream roof colours.

Ken Jones

13/01/14 – 08:44

The roof luggage carriers were used – I have a copy of a picture (not my copyright though!) of the driver loading luggage on LS car 1292 – in the ‘cream roof’ era, so post 1958.
The reason for the livery change was not ‘cosmetic’ but a practical one – I will look out the exact details in next day or two !

Peter Delaney

13/01/14 – 09:46

I’m wondering whether this is 1297, OTT 96. Both 1297 and 1299 are preserved but 1297 went to the Netherlands at some stage.

Geoff Kerr

OTT 98_2

Close up of registration and fleet number of posted shot.

13/01/14 – 11:25

OTT 98_3

I thought this photo may be of interest. It is OTT 98 after sale to the dealer W. North, Sherburn-in-Elmet, seen at their premises during the Summer of 1970.
It was quite a shock to see this here, as I had shortly before been on holiday in North Devon and seen these LS’s still working hard for a living. It was still in splendid condition here and I remember hoping that it would find a suitable. sympathetic new owner. At the time it seemed far too modern to be considered for preservation. Fortunately OTT 96 is still with us.

John Stringer

13/01/14 – 13:45

Thanks – it does look a bit like 96 though!

Geoff Kerr

I must admit I did have to go back to the original shot to be sure.

13/01/14 – 15:17

Both 1297 (OTT 96) and 1299 (OTT 98) are still with us. The former is in The Netherlands as part of the Leek collection at Monickendam, and OTT 98 is now part of the West Country Historic Omnibus and Transport Trust collection, having had a complete engine rebuild in 2007 and was hand painted back into original 1953 livery in 2009. I am delighted to be 1299’s current custodian and sponsor.
I look forward to reading Peter’s explanation as to the reasons for the change in roof colour in 1957.
Incidentally all this 1953 batch, 1293-9 and 2200-2, were down-seated to C39F following mid-life refurbishment at ECW Lowestoft, in 1961, and 1299 remains so.

John Grigg

13/01/14 – 16:42

Just a reminder you can see a picture of OTT 98 and one of OTT 43 from 2012 on this site at the Royal Blue Run gallery.

Ken Jones

13/01/14 – 17:40

OTT 98_4

I attach a photo of 1299 taken in the early 70’s which was taken on Madeira Drive Brighton following a HCVC London-Brighton run. This shows it with a blue roof as it is now preserved so it seems that the roof has changed colour a number of times over the years, I agree that the blue roof looks better but this is purely a personal preference I know.

Diesel Dave

14/01/14 – 08:22

The ‘incident’ which led to the change in colour of the roof of Royal Blue cars was as below:-
On August 2nd 1957, the 2.35 pm summer only service from Plymouth to Bournemouth, was a Bristol L coach – probably car 1239 – being driven John Whitlock when its roof was grazed by a plane landing at Exeter Airport. The undercarriage hit the top of the coach, breaking both skylights. He drove to the control tower, with the somewhat shaken passengers on board, and reported the incident. The pilot apparently had not seen a coach, and following his reporting the incident, there was an official enquiry, which John was asked to attend.
The incident was reported in the local Exeter newspaper, the ‘Express and Echo’, on 3rd August 1957, under the heading “Bus roof ‘skimmed’ by plane” and “Observers ‘saw nothing unusual’”. From the newspaper account we learn that the coach was going along the Exeter – Honiton road, when the roof was “’skimmed’ by a twin engined Mosquito going in to land at Exeter Airport. The plane landed without a mark on it and the coach had a slight dent in the roof. The bus driver felt a slight bump. As there were no other cars on the road at the time he assumed it must have something to do with a plane that had passed low over him. Wing Cmdr. R J B Pearse, manager of the airport, said that a slight dent was found in the roof of the bus, but when an inspection was made of the Mosquito there was not a mark to be found, either on the tyres or the paintwork. The pilot said he had felt nothing at all. ‘We can only assume that the plane did touch the bus’ said Wing Cmdr Pearse. The pilot’s name was withheld”.
The subsequent enquiry resulted in an accident report card being filed with the RAF, and that adds further information. The aircraft was a Mosquito Mk 35, number TA724, of the 3/4 CAACU, part of 61 Group, Home Command. The accident occurred at 16.55 on 2nd August 1957, at the end of a 2 hour 10 minute flight out and back from Exeter. This particular flight had been for Army firing practice. The pilot, 35 year old Flt Lt K Munson, was experienced, with 195 flying hours on Mosquitos, and 1567 flying hours overall. The lighting conditions were described as ‘dull’. At the end of the exercise, the pilot had joined the circuit and landed, but he was totally “unaware that his aircraft had struck the single decker bus (sic) travelling on the A30 road which runs adjacent to the airport”. The report also records that “damage was caused to the roof of the bus. No damage was sustained to the aircraft.”
It was considered that the organisation ‘at station level’ was at fault, as they knew of the danger of a collision between aircraft and vehicles, but had “made inadequate efforts to have remedial action taken.” The A30 passed across the approach to runway 13, at a distance of 50 yards. There were no traffic signals or warning notices on the road, and there was a tall hedge bounding the road which “would effectively prevent the pilot seeing the bus and vice versa”. No blame was attached to the pilot (who was making a low approach in order to touch down early on a short runway) or the driver.
As a result, 150 yards of the runway 13/31 were ‘sterilized’, and a local flying order issued to warn pilots of the dangers likely to be met on the approach to runway 13, whilst the roof of Royal Blue coaches was changed from dark blue to cream, to make them more conspicuous from the air.

Peter Delaney

14/01/14 – 11:48

I’ve just checked my original his-res image, and it definitely is OTT 98, confirmed by my notes taken at the time I wasn’t aware that it was also preserved – that’s nice to know.

John Stringer

14/01/14 – 12:27

OTT 98_5

The give away in the photo that it can only be OTT 98 is that the words “Dorset Transport Circle” are shown in the “via” part of the destination display. DTC owned this coach for well over 30 years and rallied it extensively for most of that time before generously donating it to WHOTT in 2006.

John Grigg