Buses and coaches in Sale – Part 4

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Part Four – Local Coach Operators

When I lived out in the middle of Cheshire and made monthly shopping trips to Manchester with my parents, the number 36 passed the garages of three coach operators as it travelled along the A56 through Altrincham and Sale. The first was the premises of Godfrey Abbott Motor Tours on Manchester Road in West Timperley, but that operator is outside the scope of the current article as the garage was technically in Altrincham. Mr Abbott cannot entirely be excluded, however, as he was a cousin to the Sykes family. Sykes was one of the earliest operators of char-a-banc excursions in Sale and expanded into local bus services during the General Strike of 1926. Its route from Halebarns to Manchester via Altrincham and Sale wilfully abstracted business from the Manchester Corporation tram (and later bus) routes along the A56, and also made a dent in the takings of the parallel commuter railway. Despite these considerations Sykes received licences from the new Traffic Commissioners and sold out to Manchester and North Western in 1934 for a princely sum.
The Sykes brothers continued to trade as coach operators, from their premises at the junction of Washway Road and Barwick Place, until 1954. In the post-war era they aimed the business very much down market, specialising in contract work (for schools, factories, construction sites, and cleaning firms) at rock bottom prices. Their low bids were enabled by a fleet of very tatty pre-war vehicles including AEC Regals (from Standerwick and PMT) and Tilling-Stevens B10As (from North Western) The chassis of the latter had been built in 1928 (although later fitted with 1935 bodies) and at least one survived until the end.
Meanwhile, cousin Godfrey had helped to hasten the end by setting up in business for himself in late 1946, and bidding for exactly the same kind of low-price work as his kindred. While the Sykes decided to call it a day in 1954, Godfrey Abbott went on to more glamorous ventures, operating extended tours in both the UK and Europe, initiating an express service from Manchester to Paris, and providing one of the first “ring and ride” minibus services in Britain (under contract to the pte). The business was eventually taken over by the pte’s Charterplan coaching division.

Godfrey Abbott had shown no interest in acquiring his cousins’ premises at Barwick Place, and the garage there was soon sold to another local coaching firm, Altrincham Coachways. The registered office of the business remained in Altrincham, but the site in Sale became the main depot, replacing the firm’s original very cramped premises close to its namesake railway station.

Altrincham Coachways

Norman Juckes began operations as a private hire and excursion operator in the early 1920s, and by 1929 was trading as Altrincham Coachways although the business remained a sole proprietorship until 1948 when the name was finally formalised as a limited company. The earliest recorded vehicles, both second-hand Albions, were acquired in 1929. By then Juckes was also operating a works service from Altrincham to Trafford Park and was awarded a licence for this by the Traffic Commissioners in January 1932. Other pre-war vehicles included a Leyland SKP Cub and an AEC Regal acquired from Standerwick. In 1939 the Trafford Park service was sold to Manchester Corporation.

The return of peace in 1945 resulted in a mad scramble for anything with wheels and among Altrincham Coachways “finds” were ADH 740, a Maudslay SF40 coach, and GMA 904, a utility-bodied Bedford. They were soon replaced by a veritable flood of new vehicles as Juckes sought to meet the post-war demand. In the two years 1947-48 Altrincham Coachways took delivery of seven Bedford OBs (most with Plaxton bodywork), a Plaxton bodied PS1 Tiger, three Plaxton bodied Commer Commandos, and six Crossley SD42s (three Santus, two Trans United, and one Burlingham). Two more Crossleys arrived in 1949 (one Santus, one Burlingham) along with another five bonneted Commers (three Santus, two Plaxton). The momentum continued in 1950-51 with many of the 1947-48 vehicles already being replaced by new stock such as Plaxton bodied Commer Avengers (NLG 762/763/945), the first Bedford SB for the company (Plaxton bodied NMB 848), and the first (and only) Altrincham Coachways Royal Tiger, NMA 1 with Plaxton Venturer bodywork.

Norman Juckes decided to retire in the summer of 1950 and sold the business to an upcoming coaching entrepreneur, Frank Ford. Ford’s modus operandi was to buy a coach company at a relatively low valuation, increase its efficiency, and then (after a few years) sell it on for a profit. It was immediately noticeable that more second-hand vehicles began to join the fleet. The only additions in 1951 were four fully-fronted PS1 Tigers with Duple bodywork, acquired from Hants & Sussex in July. In 1952 there was a new SB (OLG 54) and a new Atkinson Alpha (OMA 600), both , inevitably by now, with Plaxton bodywork while 1953 saw the arrival of three new Plaxton bodied Regal IVs (RMB 158/159/240). A more curious occurrence during 1953 was the sale of the four fully-fronted PS1s to Spencer of Oldham in exchange for three (pre-war!) TS8 Tigers with Harrington bodywork. All three TS8s were then withdrawn and scrapped at the end of the 1953 summer season.

Many of the more interesting members of the Altrincham Coachways fleet were eliminated in the spring of 1954 by the arrival of a batch of 10 Plaxton bodied Bedford SBGs, SMB 20-29, which received fleet numbers 1-10. A rarer beast was 14-seat Plaxton bodied Karrier 32A NXJ 858, acquired second-hand in April 1954. There were no new arrivals in 1955, but 1956 brought four more Bedford SBs (WMB 591, WTU 214/215, and XMB 550. The following year saw the purchase of another smaller coach, Bedford A4/Plaxton 29-seater YMA 950 which arrived in June 1957, but larger moves were already in progress. In March 1957 Ford had transferred four Plaxton bodied Bedford SBGs (MRV 400/500/600/700) from his Portsmouth based Triumph Coaches business to Barwick Place, supplanting native SBGs from the “SMB” batch which were sold. In November 1957 there was a sudden influx of five Plaxton bodied AEC Reliances (VUP 441-445) from Gardiner of Spennymoor (another Frank Ford company) which replaced all the remaining locally-purchased SBGs except for XMB 550. At the end of December the Karrier and the Bedford A4 were sold, meaning that the fleet consisted of Bedford SBGs XMB550 and MRV 400/500/700 (MRV 600 had already been re-sold) and the five Reliances.
Despite all of this frantic activity, presumably at the direction of accountants privy to Mr Ford’s plans, few suspected that the company was about to be sold. It came as something of a shock, therefore, when people in Sale and Altrincham discovered that Altrincham Coachways would pass into the ownership of the North Western Road Car Co at midnight on the 31st of January 1958. No vehicles were included in the deal and North Western vehicles were used to meet short-term commitments until new deliveries could be diverted to Barwick Place in the shape of Burlingham Seagulls, Harrington Wayfarer IVs, and Weymann Fanfares. These were later joined (briefly) by Reliances with Willowbrook Viking bodywork from the RDB 827-831 batch, surely the most attractive bodies for underfloor engined coaches ever produced by the Loughborough firm.
Another surprise was afoot. In 1961 a batch of eight Bedford SBs with Duple Super Vega bodywork (UDB 101-108) was delivered in full Altrincham Coachways livery. Only the Stockport registrations gave the game away. They replaced all of the heavyweights except for two Seagulls which lingered on until the arrival of three further SBs in 1964, on this occasion with Bella Vega bodywork (AJA 987-989B). In 1966 two of the 1961 Bedfords were transferred to North Western’s other coaching subsidiary, Melba Motors of Reddish, and their spaces in the Barwick Place premises were taken by two Bedford VAL14s with Duple Vega Major bodywork (FJA 990/991D). The two VALs were to be short-lived tenants, as in 1967 North Western decided to merge its two coaching subsidiaries into the parent business. The remaining 1961 Super Vegas were transferred into the main fleet while the Bella Vegas and the two VAL14s were sold.

Godfrey Abbott bought the Altrincham Coachways name and kept the separate limited company (and operator’s licence) for several years although most of the vehicles which continued to carry the company’s legal lettering were elderly double-decker buses used on schools contracts. The few which were repainted carried “Godfrey Abbott Group” fleetnames and Abbott’s new livery of ghastly green despite what the legal lettering said. The premises at Barwick Place were never used by coaches again, and for many years the old Sykes garage traded as a “Charlie Brown’s Auto Centre”, offering MOTs and replacement tyres to local car owners. Frank Ford went on to bigger things, running Plaxton for many years (he had always liked their bodywork) before joining with George Hughes to buy control of Plaxton’s great rival, Duple, in 1970. He died in 1976.

Pride of Sale

Pride of Sale Motor Tours, tenant of the third coach garage passed along the A56, was founded by Frank Brazendale in the 1920s, although details of the early fleet have, as they say, proven elusive. In 1931 the firm applied for excursions and tours from Sale, a seasonal “period return” express service to Blackpool from a dozen or more local pick-up points (most of them newsagents), and a network of works services from the Sale area to Broadheath, Salford Docks, and Trafford Park. The works services were not granted, the Traffic Commissioners preferring the rival applications from Manchester Corporation. The only pre-war vehicle showing in my records is FV 1840, an AEC 0642 Regal 4 acquired from Standerwick in August 1938. It was sold on to Worth of Enstone in 1942.

Details of vehicles from the early post-war period are equally scarce, so if anybody can fill in the gaps please step forward. New deliveries in 1947 included JTU 244 (a Maudslay Marathon III with Duple FC37F bodywork) and JTU 381 (a Bedford OB/SMT “Vista lookalike”). The fully-fronted Marathon lasted until 1959 and I can remember seeing it one Sunday morning at Pickmere Lake. There is then apparently a missing sheet in the local PSV Circle Editor’s notes which would have covered the period up to 1956, and the only other vehicle I’ve managed to uncover from this period, second-hand Commer Avenger I/Plaxton EBA 268, had already gone by the time I moved to Sale.

From 1956 onwards the majority of the fleet was always made up of Bedfords with Duple bodywork, although there were also Commers (Avenger III/Plaxton YMA 460 of 1957 and Avenger IV/Duple 785 WLG of 1962) and a pair of Bedford SBs with Yeates Europa bodywork (731 CMA/554 FMB of 1958/59). Notable among the Bedford/Duple combinations were 730 CMA, a C4Z2/Super Vista 29-seater delivered in 1958, and the company’s first 36 ft vehicle, 129 TU, a VAL14/Duple Vega Major which arrived in 1963. The other arrival in that year was even more interesting, being a “multiply pre-owned” Royal Tiger with Harrington Wayfarer bodywork, LFD 552, which turned up in May. This vehicle was never repainted into Pride of Sale’s green and cream livery and was returned to the dealer from whence it came at the end of the summer season. Its replacement was 4950 NA, an additional SB/Duple, acquired fourth-hand from Roberts of Crewe in October.

One of the more interesting aspects of the Pride of Sale operation came to an end in 1963 as a result of events in faraway Wiltshire. From the early 1950s onwards vehicles belonging to Silver Star Motor Services of Porton Down, operating their “military leave” express service from Salisbury Plain to Manchester, had spent the weekend in the care of Pride of Sale and operated “on hire” on local excursion work and “doubly on hire” to North Western – primarily on the Scarborough services. Silver Star coaches from Tiger Cub/Harringtons MMR 552/553 onwards even carried the words “On hire to Pride of Sale” on their destination blinds for their weekend holidays in sunny Manchester. This arrangement came to an end when Silver Star was swallowed up by Wilts & Dorset.

As the decade wore on the Bedford/Duple theme continued to dominate, although two Bella Vegas (GTU 433/434C) replaced two of the older Super Vegas in 1965, and further Super Vegas were replaced by a pair of VAM14s (NTU 219D/RLG 733D) in 1966. The first VAL14 was replaced by a new one with Duple Viceroy bodywork (UMA 615E) in March 1967, and two months later a VAM14 with similar Viceroy bodywork (UTU 427E) continued the cull of the Super Vegas. Meanwhile the solitary Super Vista had been sold in June 1966, leaving Pride of Sale with no coaches with fewer than 41 seats. This situation was rectified in April 1968 by the arrival of DLG 651F, a Bedford VAS1 with 29-seat Plaxton bodywork. The same month brought another Viceroy bodied VAL in the shape of DLG 652F. This was of the more powerful VAL70 type and was followed in March 1969 by identical machine JMB 399G.

The arrival of 129 TU in 1963 had emphasised the inadequacy of the company’s premises at 147 Cross Street, which included a booking office and a small garage. The only way to get a 36 ft long vehicle into it was by halting traffic in both directions on the busy A56 trunk road and reversing it in. Once inside there was no room left for a second vehicle. The operator’s open parking yard just off Glebelands Road was no better, and a larger base was desperately sought. This materialised in 1965 when a lease was taken out on a piece of land to the rear of the Crossford Garage petrol station – as the name suggests, within stone-throwing distance of the River Mersey and Sale’s northern boundary. Two flat-pack buildings were quickly assembled on the western part of the site (providing room for five vehicles) and the open yard on the eastern half could hold a further seven or eight. The new base was still clearly visible from the A56 and the line-up of Viceroy variants in the yard made an interesting sight if compared to the relatively dumpy Super Vegas of only a few years previously.
At the end of the decade the Brazendale family decided to sell up and Pride of Sale followed Altrincham Coachways into the hungry maw of Godfrey Abbott. The legal lettering remained for a while and Abbott kept the depot behind Crossford Garage to supplement his own relatively cramped garage and yard in West Timperley.

Lingley’s Saleaway

When I moved to Sale I rapidly discovered that there was another coach operator in the town, one whose depot had not been visible from the top deck of a number 36 bus. This was Lingley’s Saleaway Touring Co Ltd, which had a yard on Hope Road, adjacent to the Queens Hotel and Sale Station. The business had two different strands in its early history, later joined by a third strand of even more convoluted ancestry. The Notices and Proceedings of the North West Traffic Commissioners show two separate operators at the time of Road Service Licence hearings in 1931. John James Bennett of 22 Bangor Street, Hulme, Manchester (trading as “Saleaway Touring Co”) was successful in obtaining Excursions and Tours from the Sale area, while Mr AE Lingley of Stretford applied for E&T from his home town. At some undetected point the two operators merged their interests, although Mr Bennett seems to have left by the end of the 1930s when the business was being run by AE Lingley and his son Bill.
Until 1946 all vehicles operated were second-hand and included a petrol-engined Regal (from Standerwick|), a normal control AJS, five Leyland Tigers, and a Bedford WTB. There may well have been others unnoticed by the enthusiast community. In the post-war era this purchasing policy was reversed and almost all vehicles were brand new. The first to arrive, in November 1946, was Santus bodied Guy Arab III JLG 970, followed by a Plaxton bodied Bedford OB (CDB 322) in June 1947, and a Santus bodied PS1/1 Tiger (JMB 637) two months later. In January 1949 Lingley’s became one of the first operators of a new Commer Avenger when Plaxton bodied KTU 333 was delivered, and in March of the same year added two new Crossley SD42s with Bellhouse Hartwell bodywork (LLG 590/591). A second Plaxton bodied Avenger (LTU 836) joined the fleet in October while a third (NLG 762) came from Altrincham Coachways in August 1951 when less than twelve months old. Another new example arrived in the same month as OLG 468.

In July 1954 Lingley’s tried an Avenger II in the form of Plaxton bodied TLG 800. It was soon followed by two of the TS3 powered Avenger III model, TMB 555 in October 1954 and VLG 769 in June 1955. Both had Plaxton Venturer bodywork and all three of these Avengers were still in use when I first moved to Sale, the latter two giving me a taste for the sound of a two-stroke engine. Lingley’s were apparently less impressed as no more were ordered and the next deliveries were both Plaxton bodied Bedfords, Leyland-powered SB8 666 CMA in April 1958, and Bedford-powered SB1 444 HTU in October 1959.

Meanwhile, the Lingley’s had doubled the size of their business by acquiring Stretford Motors Ltd, based at The Old Cock garage in Stretford. As detailed elsewhere on this website, the business had originally been a partnership of Lancashire Motor Traders’ supremo Joseph Whitehead and his brother-in-law Albert Warburton – proprietor of The Old Cock garage. In the late 1930s it was sold to TH Parker of Hollinwood near Oldham (and who traded there as Blue Bird Motors), and then in 1953 resold to Johnston Brothers of Middleton. It kept its separate identity (and operator’s licence) throughout the changes in ownership and in 1957 was sold yet again, to the Lingley family. The registered office of Lingley’s Saleaway Touring Co was then moved to Stretford Motors’ address, mainly because it offered a better environment than the rather filthy and squalid environs of the Hope Road premises. The vehicles, however, remained amid the grime and Stretford Motors’ coaches were also frequently to be found there while undergoing maintenance.

Lingley’s tried a Plaxton bodied Thames Trader in May 1960 (1 MMA) but returned to Bedford for an SB5/Plaxton Embassy II (241 YMB) in March 1963. The company’s first 36 ft vehicle, VAL14 BMB 199B, arrived in April 1964 and signalled a switch to Duple bodywork. This was confirmed by the arrival of SB5/Bella Vega GTU 765C in February 1965 and Ford R226/Mariner RTU 962D in June 1966, but in the following two years Lingley’s returned to Plaxton for the bodywork on VAM70 YMB 374F and their first ever Bristol, LHL6L (Leyland engined) LLG 340G.

By 1971 the Lingley’s fleet had been reduced to the three newest vehicles (the R226, the VAM70, and the Bristol) while the associated Stretford Motors fleet was also down to three (an SB/Bella Vega bought new in 1964, a second-hand VAL, and a second-hand VAM). It soon became apparent that the Lingley family were looking to sell and Jacksons of Altrincham appeared to show the greatest interest. At the last moment Godfrey Abbott stepped in and added the Lingley businesses to his own – he now had a virtual monopoly of coaching activity in Sale although this would soon be challenged by new start-ups. Eventually, of course, the Godfrey Abbott Group would itself be taken over, though few could have predicted that its buyer would be the PTE.

Acknowledgements

Much of the information on the vehicles of local coach operators came from unpublished PSV Circle records, kindly provided by John Kaye. Most of the other research was done in the Archive of the Greater Manchester Transport Society and my thanks go to archivist George Turnbull for his assistance and forbearance.

Neville Mercer
04/14


16/03/15 – 08:34

Fascinating reading regarding Sale area coach operators. Altrincham Coachways was owned at least partly prior to Sale to North Western by a Frank Ford who had let’s say an interest in many coach operators in the 50s such as Roberts of Crewe who were also associated with Florence and a Grange? From Morecambe. I believe he was also connected with Duple. Somewhere I have a box of old documents from Fieldsend Coaches with some interesting correspondence regarding their empire in the 50s which included Shearings when they were based in Oldham. There were very many wheelings and dealings back then and I only wish I had made notes of the many conversations I had with Jim Hackett part owner of Fieldsends regarding these when I worked with him in the late seventies and early eighties.

Tim Presley


23/06/15 – 09:52

Hope you may find these old pics interesting to your members, link to Preston Digital Archive Flickr site page
Coaches shown are “MRV 600” and “YMA 950” in August 1960 on Blackpool Road in Ashton-on-Ribble, Preston, Lancashire.

Phil Sullivan


26/04/17 – 07:35

Pride of Sale Coaches 147 Cross St Sale demolished 2017. Only just found site brilliant, I have lots of memories of all local operators in sale but only one photo the day after we picked it up from Duple.

Fred Brazendale


04/03/18 – 09:53

I wanted to see if there was any trace on the internet about Lingleys as I remember their coaches picking up from shops near where I lived as a boy in Hulme during the 1950’s.
It was really interesting to read all the comments in the old stream. The thing I recall most is that the Lingleys coaches I saw were sky blue and silver. Am I correct or is that a mistake?
Some people are talking about pink?

David Doolin

Buses and coaches in Sale – Part 3

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Part 3 – Express Services

The A56 trunk road entered the Borough of Sale from the north at Crossford Bridge, where the River Mersey marked the boundary with Stretford (and Cheshire’s boundary with Lancashire), and was known as Chester Road until the junction with Dane Road. It then became Cross Street up to the School Road/Ashton Lane junction and finally Washway Road all the way south to the Altrincham boundary. It was an extremely busy road back in the 1960s for a variety of reasons. Firstly there was the “traditional” traffic which had used the route as the quickest way from Manchester to Chester, (and then on to North Wales) since Roman times. Secondly there was the extra traffic generated by new housing estates in both Sale and Altrincham, and thirdly there was the opening of the Cheshire section of the M6 motorway. In the decade and a half before the creation of the M56, the already congested A56 became the main link between Manchester and the original southern section of the M6 (which then ended at the A449 to the north of Wolverhampton).

The road congestion had its brighter side for a young bus enthusiast. All kinds of exotic long-distance coaches could be found amid the traffic, most of them moving slowly enough for legal lettering to be read. A fair number were operating on the many express services which passed through the borough. The most frequent of these was the X97 version of the Tyne-Tees-Mersey pool. A few journeys on this service reached Newcastle, but most of the vehicles ran from Leeds to Liverpool via Huddersfield, Oldham, Manchester, Sale, Altrincham, and Warrington. The X97 ran every two hours, alternating with the X99 (via Eccles in lieu of Sale and Altrincham) to provide an hourly frequency from Leeds to Manchester and Liverpool. At one time the workings via Eccles had been operated by Lancashire United and those via Altrincham by North Western, to appease the local licensing authorities in those towns, but by the 1960s LUT and North Western coaches were to be found on the X97 variant in equal quantities.

North Western’s main contribution to the X97 came in the form of “Black Top” Willowbrook dual-purpose vehicles built on both Reliance and Tiger Cub chassis. Towards the end of the 1960s the Reliance coaches with Weymann Fanfare bodywork which had been the regulars on the few through journeys to Newcastle were replaced on these duties by 36 ft Leopards with Alexander Y-type bodywork. LUT used a mix of all its underfloor engined dual-purpose fleet, including examples bodied by Burlingham, Duple (Midland) Plaxton, and Northern Counties (the latter were often described as the only coaches built by NCME in the post-war era, but they looked like DPs to me!).

The LUT/NWRCC hegemony over the Manchester-Liverpool end of the X97 was occasionally disturbed by interloping vehicles from the more distant members of the Tyne-Tees-Mersey pool. A West Yorkshire vehicle (usually a Bristol LS – the half-cabs never seemed to get further than Lower Mosley Street) might be seen once a month but they were never common. Between 1962 and the end of the decade I only ever saw one Northern General coach working the X97 through Sale (a rather nice Reliance/Harrington Cavalier in 1965) and United were rare at Lower Mosley Street and unknown in Sale and Altrincham. One vehicle which did pass through on an X97 in the summer of 1966 was a Durham District Services Bristol LS, carrying dual stickers which proclaimed it to be “On hire to United Automobile Services” and “On hire to North Western”

The London Services

The majority of North Western’s express services from Manchester to London also passed through Sale. Until 1960 North Western’s express routes had not been given service numbers (although vehicles capable of displaying them showed any number used by a joint operator). In the 1960 numbering scheme the assorted Manchester to London services were all given the number X5, but with a letter suffix to indicate their precise route. The suffix letters were identical to those allocated by Midland Red to the routes as a (largely theoretical) joint operator which helped to avoid confusion between the two systems when bookings were being made or the spoils divided. The five variants running through Sale were the X5L (the traditional daytime service via the Potteries and Birmingham), the X5M (the overnight equivalent of the X5L), the X5N (a faster night service which omitted Birmingham), the X5P (a short working from Birmingham to Manchester and the only one of the services where Midland Red contributed a vehicle), and the twice-daily X5Z (the quickest of them all, operating non-stop from the Tabley interchange on the M6 – six miles south of Altrincham to Mill Hill in north London, except for a brief refreshment/toilet break halt at the Blue Boar).

All the variants of the X5 used North Western’s newest coaches. When I first moved to Sale this meant VDB 907-916, the 36 ft Leyland Leopards with Alexander Z-type bodies known inside the company as “stretched Highlanders” – a term which always made me think of William Wallace in the hands of the King’s torturers. The original “Highlanders” (RDB 832-851 of 1961) had been Reliances with the more usual 30 ft version of the Z-type body. The ten stretched Highlanders remained unique as 1963’s express service Leopards carried the new (and very stylish) Y-type body which became North Western’s standard coach until the end of the decade. Despite what you might read in the PSV Circle fleet history of North Western (not one of their better efforts!) the company referred to the Y-types as “Travelmasters” and not “Highlanders”.

Midland Red’s token presence on the X5P arrived in the Manchester area at lunchtime and any hopes of exotic home-made C5 coaches were inevitably dashed by the sight of a Willowbrook bodied Leopard DP or one of the Duple Commander coaches delivered in 1965. It was almost as if BMMO worried about North Western stealing its advanced technology while the vehicle was on its lunchtime layover. I did once see an old S15 on the X5P, so presumably the technology on that type had already been declassified.

The Coastal Services

While Midland Red was categorised as a joint operator on the express runs to London, the express services from Manchester to the northern half of Wales were licensed solely to North Western, despite running in Crosville territory for the vast majority of their mileage. This was, in a sense, Crosville’s own fault. When the services had begun in the late 1920s Crosville had lobbied for local authorities in North Wales to deny licences to incoming operators. As a result North Western had operated its expresses as “period returns”, selling seats only at the Manchester end. The company had known that Crosville would object to any other arrangement (even though the Taylors’ company had made no attempt to operate its own expresses to Manchester), and when road service licensing began in 1931 North Western merely sought licences to preserve the status quo. As a result no revenue was collected in Crosville territory and no pressure could be applied under the “Combine” agreement for a share of the service or the revenue. In later years Crosville agreed to a relaxation of the uni-directional restrictions on the routes as they provided a useful link to the North Western/Ribble hub at Lower Mosley Street, and a commission on a ticket sale was better than nothing.

Off-season the North Wales services were maintained by a solitary journey from Manchester to Llandudno on the X24, but in the summer peak months the menu increased to include the X3 from Manchester to Barmouth, the X4 to Aberystwyth, the X34 (a variant of the X24 which ran via Prestatyn), the X44 (to Bangor), and the X74 (to Pwllheli). On a summer Saturday in the 1960s the seven “service” coaches allocated to these routes (usually Reliances with Harrington Wayfarer IV or Weymann Fanfare bodywork in 1962, Y-type Leopards by 1969) might be supplemented by up to three times that number of “hired in” coaches, most from Manchester area firms but with a sprinkling of names from further afield such as Niddrie of Middlewich and Bostock of Congleton. Duple and Plaxton bodied Bedfords predominated, but they came in a pleasing variety of liveries and passed through in waves at set hours of the day – unless the terrible traffic congestion in North Wales at that time had forced a reassessment of the return schedule!

One other North Western coastal express passed through Sale, in this case travelling in the opposite direction to the North Wales cluster. The X65 started in Northwich, passing through Altrincham, Sale, and Manchester on its way to Scarborough. Northwich depot only had three coaches (the service coach on this route in 1962 was either an elderly “KDB” Fanfare or a newer but more spartan “Black Top”) so at times of peak demand this route could also offer some interesting hires. The most numerous seemed to be Ford/Thames Traders with Plaxton bodywork belonging to Les Gleave’s Crewe-based subsidiary Roberts Coaches, but an occasional Salopia Bedford SB3 could be seen despite the “dead” mileage from Whitchurch to Northwich. From closer to home, Jacksons of Altrincham might also provide duplicates from their home town eastwards. Interestingly, Altrincham Coachways (a North Western subsidiary since 1958) never did, perhaps confirming the story that their general manager frowned on lending vehicles to the parent company as “they always come back filthy and with something wrong!”

Surprisingly, perhaps, there was never a North Western express service from Sale to Blackpool. This discrepancy is accounted for by the fact that the licence went to an incumbent operator, Pride of Sale Motor Services. This company will be dealt with in Part Four. One Blackpool service did pass through Sale but was not allowed to do business. This was the X36, which was shown in the North Western timetables of the 1960s as a single service from Sharston, the Wythenshawe estate, Timperley, Altrincham, and Urmston, to Blackpool. In reality it was worked as three separate services, one from Sharston and Wythenshawe (a licence acquired from Mayfair Travel in the late 1950s), another from Timperley and Altrincham, and a third from Urmston. The Sharston departure could often be sighted scuttling through Sale along Brooklands Road, Marsland Road, and the A56 northbound, aiming for the new M62 motorway (now part of the M60) from Stretford to Worsley and beyond it the A6 to Preston and then west to Blackpool. The Timperley and Altrincham variant came straight up the A56 through Sale before joining the Sharston vehicle for the route along the M62 and A6.

Another major coastal service had nothing to do with North Western, but (a little confusingly) used the service number “X5” albeit without a suffix letter. Yelloway’s famous service from Rochdale, Oldham, and Manchester to Cheltenham, Bristol, Exeter, and Torquay, passed through Sale on a daily basis during the high season, and three times per week in the colder months. Cavaliers had just taken over from Seagulls in 1962 which could explain why I still say hello to YDK 590 on every visit to the Manchester Museum of Transport. Longer Cavaliers followed before Harrington ended production and Yelloway turned to Plaxton for its bodywork. Nice as the Cavaliers were, they were far from the only attraction on this service. On summer weekends duplicates from Black and White Motorways, Greenslades, Grey Cars, Hebble, and Royal Blue were a frequent occurrence along with an assortment of Bedfords and Fords from smaller companies. Sale was actually a better vantage point to see these vehicles from than central Manchester, as many of these hires were loaded up first at Rochdale (or in the case of the Hebble machines arrived already fully loaded from Yorkshire) and then despatched non-stop to Cheltenham or beyond. They still had to travel along the A56.

Odds and Ends

PMT’s service X2 from the Potteries towns to Manchester passed through Sale twice a day and at times of normal traffic was usually operated by a relatively recent coach (in 1965, for example, Duple Commanders), but in the run-up to Christmas or on a day when Stoke City was playing a Manchester team, double-deckers were often deployed in the shape of a Weymann bodied lowbridge Atlantean or a Northern Counties Fleetline. The route always seemed to be doing very well or very badly with no happy medium. One day there would be a full Fleetline duplicating a full service coach. The next day the service coach would have nobody but the crew on board! It was easy to see why North Western had never sought a share of the route. Crosville finally reached Manchester with two “shoppers express” services in the early 1960s, the X69 from Pwllheli via Denbigh and the X75 from Llanidloes via Newtown. As with North Western’s much more numerous incursions into Crosville country, no attempt was made to acquire revenue from the outer terminus, and in effect these two services were little more than day excursions dressed up as expresses. Both services passed through Sale, the sight of their Bristol MW coaches achieving little more than a reminder of how a pig-headed and arrogant founding family can lose many opportunities, both for themselves and the travelling public. If the Taylors hadn’t held a grudge dating back to North Western’s acquisition of Mid-Cheshire in 1924 we could have had frequent, jointly operated, services from Manchester to Chester, Crewe, Wrexham, and the North Wales coast.

Neville Mercer
04/2014

Link to view Part Four – Local Coach Operators


08/04/14 – 07:58

I totally agree about Lancashire United’s Northern Counties-bodied “coaches”. The PSV Circle’s definition of DP is a bus shell with coach seats (or occasionally vice versa). It’s a useful classification, although I think “semi-coach” might have been a more accurate description of what it denotes, since the ability of a vehicle to be used for more than one purpose is a much more complex issue. The problem with these particular vehicles was probably that no-one else was ordering single-deckers from Northern Counties at the time, and therefore no-one could really say what their standard bus shell looked like.
They were rather splendid though, internally as well as externally. The standard of interior finish on these and other LUT DPs of this period was second to none, probably exceeding that of the true coaches that succeeded them when DPs went out of fashion.

Peter Williamson


09/04/14 – 08:24

I think there were plenty of cross boundary traffics between company territories which were underdeveloped over the years. It was one of the consequences of the route licensing regime – influenced not least by the possibility of railway objection.
This article prompted me to turn up W J Crosland Taylor’s 1948 book – The Sowing and the Harvest.
Regarding the 1923 discussions with the Mid Cheshire directors, he wrote “Alas! our skill in these matters was not as good as it became later and they got their price – selling to the North Western Road Car Company the next year. We were wild about it, but our wildness was tempered with admiration for our good friend George Cardwell (NWRCC), who had got the better of us on that occasion, and soon after that we met Cardwell at the Abbey Arms and over a friendly glass of beer agreed a pooling arrangement of joint services from Northwich to our territory which has worked well ever since.”
Those don’t come across as the words of a begrudging “pig-headed and arrogant” writer to me!

Mike Grant


10/04/14 – 12:33

Hi Mike, I’m afraid that I am not an admirer of any of the Taylor family, but particularly “WJ Crosland-Taylor”. I put that in inverted commas because he was born without the hyphen – Crosland was his second christian name. The fact that he would change it to sound more aristocratic says a lot about the man.
I’m also unconvinced by the mock generosity of his words about George Cardwell, written 25 years after the fact. From other accounts I would suggest that the “wild” part was the more honest reaction. And the sitting down in the Abbey Arms surely occurred several years after the Mid-Cheshire debacle when both Crosville and North Western were required by their new lords and masters (the “Combine” of Tilling & British and the railways) to hammer out area agreements regardless of how much they disliked each other. As regards “arrogant”, I would refer you to comments made about Welsh villages and the Welsh people in his various books. I think that they might agree with my verdict!

Neville Mercer


11/04/14 – 17:49

As far as I can establish, the joint Crosville/NWRCC services predated the Tilling B A T influence which I agree could have been a factor after 15th May 1930 when the Crosvlle firm was reconstituted.
144 Runcorn – Northwich began in the back half of 1928; 145 Crewe – Northwich shows as a joint service in the 1/10/29 Crosville timetable and 146 Chester – Northwich first appears in the 15/5/29 publication.
I have no doubt that there may be others sharing your views but equally from my experiences of North Wales in the ’70’s, “the Crossville” as it was often referred to, was a well respected part of the local community. The founders were long before my time but they did build a significant transport business and it is perhaps inevitable that almost “Branson- like”, they upset a few a people along the way.
Just to add to your observations about X69 and X74 I don’t think it quite accurate to say “no attempt” was made to attract bookings from the eastern end. NWRCC Northwich and Altrincham offices were both promoted for ticket sales in the service leaflets as was Lower Mosley Street. The vast majority of the traffic was for shopping and Saturday football excursions but single and period returns were available and used.
I enjoyed reading your piece but felt it worth pointing out for the record that there was another slant on Crosville history. One wonders if it‘s a consequence of having green blood!

Mike Grant


14/04/14 – 18:23

I’m left a little confused by your “green blood” comment Mike, having described the founder of Crosville as having the physical appearance of a hybrid between Ebeneezer Scrooge and a malevolent goblin (if you don’t believe me, look at a photograph of him!) in my book on North Wales independents. I presume that goblins do have green blood, but I suspect that you might have been referring to loyalty to Crosville.
I would agree with you that Crosville was a well run company in the period between the end of the war and NBC, and that it’s service network was far more comprehensive than my own beloved North Western (much as I loved this company its rural network was pathetic). My complaint is purely with the founding family who used tactics which were frequently disgraceful to achieve their near monopoly of bus services in North Wales. The evidence for this is far too bulky to present on this website, but much of it is in my North Wales book.
I take your point about the joint services from Northwich, but would suggest that the two operators’ cooperation was more to forestall any new competitors starting up before the 1930 Road Traffic Act (it was known long before the actual Act that fundamental legislative change was on the way) than an indication of a rapprochement.
As regards the X69 and X75, the leaflets may well have tried to produce traffic from the eastern end, but in all the years covered by these articles I never once saw a leaflet for the Crosville routes in either the Lower Mosley Street booking office or in Altrincham bus station’s enquiry office. I guess that you had to ask for them. Also, the two services were not mentioned on Lower Mosley Street’s signs, although in reality they operated from the former Finglands side of the bus station.
One last thought. I’m having trouble thinking of the Taylors in the same breath as Richard Branson. Surely a better comparison would be to Stagecoach, although Crosville’s anti-competitive tactics made Stagecoach look like saints. An ever apter comparison might be made to John D Rockefeller’s Standard Oil Company, which achieved its dominance by every kind of underhand tactic known to the business world. Admittedly a couple of the Rockefellers’ competitors had their refineries destroyed in mysterious fires, and I would never accuse the Taylors of going to that extreme. The Rockefeller monopoly was dissolved by Act of Congress in 1911 and split up to form Esso, Mobil, Chevron, Amoco, and a dozen other prominent oil companies. I think that a forced dismemberment of Crosville would also have been in the public interest. They could have given the successor companies names such as Mona Maroon, Llandudno Royal Blue, Brookes Brothers, and so on. The enormous reach of Crosville served their shareholders far better than the traveller. Even on the long distance express services, where a level of coordination existed between the assorted independents long before Crosville muscled in.
I think that we’ll have to agree to differ on this one, Mike.

Neville Mercer

Buses and coaches in Sale – Part 2

Not read from the beginning click here

Part Two – North Western

In 1923 British Automobile Traction, the motor bus subsidiary of BET, restructured its “branch” in Cheshire and northern Derbyshire as a subsidiary known as the North Western Road Car Company. At that time the new company had major bases in Macclesfield and Stockport (both in Cheshire) and at Buxton in Derbyshire. Its Stockport operations had reached out westwards to Altrincham but its vehicles had yet to enter the borough of Sale.

Meanwhile, another privately owned bus company had filled one of the gaps in Sale’s transport infra-structure by commencing a service from Urmston, travelling via Flixton, Carrington, and Ashton-on-Mersey. The Mid-Cheshire Motor Bus Co had been founded in Northwich in 1914, primarily to provide works services to the various chemical plants in the Northwich area. After the end of the First World War it increased the utilisation of its fleet by starting local services available to the general public and used the increased revenue to open a second garage in Flixton. As with the company’s first base the primary task of this depot was to provide works services (in this case to the sprawling Trafford Park industrial estate), but stage carriage services soon followed, including two circular routes in Urmston and Flixton, services from Flixton to Eccles and from Urmston to Warrington, and the run across Carrington Moss to Sale.

The Urmston to Sale route found few passengers except on the final section between Ashton and the town centre, so the service was rapidly re-scheduled. Its new timetable involved a bus positioning to Sale from Urmston in the morning, operating short workings between Ashton and Sale for most of the day, and then returning to Urmston via the full route in the evenings. The company was making money from its Northwich and Flixton operations, but not that much, and by 1924 the owners were being tempted to sell out.
Crosville was eager to buy, not only for the Northwich services which adjoined its own expanding territory, but to gain access to the Manchester area from the Flixton depot. Eager, but apparently not eager enough. As the Taylor family of Crosville haggled over a price (they were notoriously miserly) the more generous executives from North Western stepped in. In November 1924 Mid-Cheshire became North Western’s very first acquisition and NWRCC’s red and cream livery quickly replaced the blue and primrose previously worn by vehicles on the Flixton-based routes.

In North Western’s 1936 numbering scheme the Urmston/Ashton to Sale service became the 103 (at the same time the other former Mid-Cheshire routes serviced by Flixton depot became the 102/104-107). Having been established before the 1928 agreement with Manchester Corporation the service continued to cross the A56 boundary, passing Sale Station before turning in a triangular loop formed by Northenden Road, Woodlands Road, and Broad Road. The next major change, in the years just after World War Two, saw the Ashton end of the short-workings divided into two alternating services. One variation continued past Ashton Village via the original route to the junction of Carrington Lane and Manor Avenue, while the other turned slightly southwards into Firs Road, terminating just short of that thoroughfare’s own junction with Manor Avenue. Both versions continued to show “103” as a route number until 1962 when the Manor Avenue workings became the 205 and the Firs Road operations the 206. Through workings from/to Urmston kept the number 103.

When I arrived in Sale in the summer of 1962 the Ashton routes were still being worked by Atkinson Alphas, usually the two Willowbrook bodied examples (fleet numbers 512/3), but in early 1964 they were suddenly replaced by brand-new Alexander bodied Fleetlines. At that point in time North Western’s Urmston garage only had three Fleetlines (YJA 13/15/16, with matching fleet numbers) and it always seemed rather odd to me that these were allocated to the Sale “locals” rather than to the major trunk services between the Urmston area and Manchester city centre. I wasn’t complaining of course, the D-type Fleetlines were superb machines and appeared as futuristic at the time as MCTD’s “Mancunians” did later in the same decade. The salmon coloured ceilings in the upper decks of the vehicles made a particular impression upon me as did the double-curvature windscreens at the front ends. There were also a couple of friendly drivers who allowed me to stand on the platform and change gear for them – I should probably add that this was on a pre-selector box so no real damage could have been done. Nevertheless this would not happen in this day and age!

Until 1968 most of Manor Avenue was a lumpy dirt road, unsuitable for cars let alone PSVs, but in that year it was finally paved and as a result the 205/206 became circular services. This effectively doubled the frequency at the Ashton end of the route while still only requiring two vehicles. The services passed into PTE ownership in this form in 1972 and after the closure of Urmston depot were worked from Princess Road.

The “By Agreement” services

In January 1926 North Western acquired Altrincham & District Motor Services and became the most important operator in that town. Major inter-urban services were operated from Altrincham to Knutsford, Northwich, and Warrington, but passengers from Manchester intent upon reaching those towns still had to catch a train or connect with the North Western routes via the Manchester Corporation tramway. This changed in 1928 when North Western joined the Express Motor Bus network initiated by Manchester and the Altrincham trunk routes were allowed to continue up the A56 through Sale and Stretford to the city centre “by arrangement”. The terms of this agreement meant that the vast bulk of the revenues on the Altrincham-Manchester section went to the corporation – probably the reason why North Western was not too bothered by its drivers’ reluctance to pull in at designated stops on the way into Manchester.

The corporation allocated route numbers to these services; 36 for Northwich, 37 for Warrington, and 38/39 for Knutsford and beyond. These numbers were eventually endorsed by North Western in its 1936 numbering scheme – until then NWRCC vehicles had carried no route numbers. By the summer of 1962 the 36 was (as previously mentioned) being worked by PD2/21 Orions and Bristol K5Gs. Shortly after my arrival in Sale the service was renumbered as the 233 and extended at the Northwich end to Winsford and Salterswall. The older double-deckers were then replaced by AEC Renowns with an occasional Fleetline thrown in for variety. The 37 became the preserve of Alexander bodied Loline IIIs, while the single-deck 38/39 were operated by anything Altrincham depot could find including (from 1964) the Strachan bodied Bedford VAL14s with “Dunham canal bridge” roof profiles. These vehicles could be found on a surprising variety of routes worked from Altrincham. Their “core” duties were the Dunham Massey services (98/98A/210/211) and the Altrincham-Halebarns circulars (40/40A, later the 40/1/2/3), but they were also regular performers on the summer only X36 from Sharston to Blackpool, and weekend loans to Manchester depot saw them on express routes to Barnsley and Bradford.
One route which they never operated (mainly because of a sharp turn from Washway Road into Ashton Lane) was the 606 from Altrincham to the Petrochemicals plant at Carrington via the A56 and Sale. This operated three times each day and during my time in Sale was operated by underfloor engined saloons with either Weymann Hermes or Willowbrook dual-purpose bodywork (and “Black Tops”). Another restricted service which passed through the town was the 97B from Manchester to Parkside Hospital in Macclesfield, a long-stay psychiatric unit at that time. This operated on Sundays and could be operated by anything in Manchester depot’s inventory ranging from front-line coaches to superannuated Bristol K5Gs. There was also the 36C, which allegedly ran from Manchester to the Ancoats Hospital at Great Warford (near Knutsford) but I never saw one of these in more than a decade of living in Sale. Does anybody know more about this service? The obvious question is “why was it numbered 36C when it actually followed the 38/39 route”.

A latecomer to the roster of North Western services through Sale was the 504, a rail replacement service introduced in 1964 after the closure of the passenger railway line from Warrington to Stockport via West Timperley and Northenden. I occasionally used this railway line during 1963 as a way to reach Manchester Airport in time for the early morning departures (47/48 to West Timperley, train to Northenden, and then the first 64 to the airport – the things we do for our hobbies) and can testify that passengers were very few. The replacement bus service was equally short of punters. The 504 started at Urmston (offering connections by train from Warrington) and then followed the 103 route as far as Sale. It then turned southwards on the A56, passing the defunct West Timperley station, before making a left turn into Navigation Road and then joining the A560 to pass reasonably closely to the former Baguley and Northenden stations on its way into Stockport. I travelled on the early morning departure on this service more than 20 times in 1964/65 (both to go to the airport and to connect with long distance services at Stockport) and was the only passenger on every occasion! The regular vehicles on the route were “old friends” – Atkinson Alphas 512/3, enjoying a restful time before their eventual retirement in late 1965. They had the advantage (?) of rear entrances which meant that I could sit at the front and chat about buses to the crews. They seemed glad to have me on board. Predictably the service came to an end the moment the subsidy ran out.

Neville Mercer
03/14

Link to view Part Three – Express Services

Buses and coaches in Sale – Part 1

Not read from the beginning click here

Part One – Manchester Corporation

Sale is divided into two equal halves by the A56 trunk road which runs along a north north east to south south west axis through the centre of the town. Three main east-west routes cross the A56. The southernmost of these (Harboro Road to the west of the A56, Marsland Road to the east) used to be a “B” road in the period covered by this article but has now been upgraded to be the main east-west route as the A6144, enabling through traffic to bypass the town centre. The next east-west crossing, then as now the B5166, is Ashton Lane to the west (leading to Ashton-upon Mersey and Carrington) and School Road to the east (turning into Northenden Road after the railway bridge at Sale Station and then becoming Sale Road after Sale Moor). In the 1960s School Road was the main shopping street. The northernmost of the three crossings was formed by Dane Road to the east (the B5397) and the unclassified Glebelands Road to the west which, like both Harboro Road and Ashton Lane, led to Ashton-on-Mersey. The three routes to the east of the A56 also converged, with Marsland Road joining Northenden Road at Sale Moor to form Sale Road, and the successor to Dane Road merging in half a mile further east. The only other important through route was Brooklands Road which left Marsland Road immediately to the east of Brooklands Station and headed straight as an arrow in a south south easterly direction for Baguley on the main A560 from Altrincham to Stockport. Until the early 1930s Manchester Corporation’s main contribution to the town’s public transport was provided by three tram services. The 47 and 48 from Manchester to Altrincham stuck to the A56 for most of their routes while the 49 turned east in Sale town centre on Ashfield Road, a block to the north of School Road, passing Sale Station before terminating at Sale Moor. Ashfield Road was used as School Road met the A56 at a slightly oblique angle too sharp for a tramcar arriving from the north. All three routes retained their existing numbers when converted to motor-bus operation. The 49 was later extended at the Sale Moor end to two termini serving new housing, one fork extending via Conway Road to the junction of Norris Road and Helsby Avenue and the other via Derbyshire Road South to North Parade. Both variations used the route number 49 for more than 20 years until the service was combined with the replacement bus routes for the Manchester-Moston trolleybuses to create cross-town services 112 (Moston-Manchester-Helsby Ave) and 113 (Moston-Manchester-North Parade).

By 1962 the very frequent 47/48 (every 10 mins or better) were being operated by an eclectic mixture of everything that Princess Road garage had to offer, ranging from the famous “4100” batch of exposed radiator Daimlers to brand-new Fleetlines. Inevitably the Fleetlines began to eliminate their older compatriots as the decade went on, with most being of the “Manchester” type with a revised lower front panel. As part of the renumbering of MCTD routes in the late 1960s the 47/48 became the 63/64.The 112/113 were also operated by “4100s” from Princess Road, but Rochdale Road garage’s share of the two services added some variety in the shape of PD2s with MCW Orion bodywork. The old Daimlers rattled a lot less than the PD2s.

Later developments, operated by motor buses from their inception, were services 50, 91, 99, 150, 161, 152, and 201.

The 50 left Manchester city centre for Northenden via Wilmslow Road and Palatine Road and then continued via Sale Road, Sale Moor, and Marsland Road to its terminus at the junction of Belgrave Road and Washway Road (the A56) which has already been mentioned. MCTD described this terminus as “Brooklands”, which was as inaccurate as many of their destinations, being well to the west of Brooklands Station which was itself barely in the area most locals considered to be Brooklands. The service was fairly frequent (every 20 mins, increasing to every 15 during Saturday daytime) and at the time that I arrived in Sale was being operated by the “4400” batch of Daimlers with “pre-Orion” Metro-Cammell Phoenix bodywork and “tin front” radiator cowlings. Daimler CVG6s with MCW Orion bodywork followed by the end of the decade.
Service 91 was much less frequent and ran from Manchester to Ashton-on-Mersey via the A56, Glebelands Road, Grosvenor Road, and Ashton Lane. Its original terminus was at “Ashton Village”, a small parade of shops close to the junction of Ashton Lane and Harboro Road, but in the late 1940s it was extended to a new housing estate at Manor Avenue, and then (in 1960) across Carrington Moss to the new Manchester “overspill” development at Partington. The 91 was a joint service with North Western despite originally being worked exclusively by Corporation vehicles. The “joint” status was necessitated by the 1928 agreement between MCTD and North Western which stated that any new services to the east of the A56 would be worked by the Corporation and any to the west by the BET operator. After the 91 was extended to Partington the situation had to be amended as the service then passed under a low railway bridge between Carrington and Partington, and Manchester had no lowbridge buses. From 1960 until 1966 North Western operated the all-day “full length” service while Manchester provided peak hour short-workings between Manor Avenue and the city centre. In the North Western renumbering scheme of 1962 the full length journeys became the 222/223 (the latter diverting onto a private road through the Petrochemicals complex) while the short-workings from Manor Avenue retained the number 91. North Western’s offerings were usually Dennis Lolines while Manchester tended to use the oldest serviceable buses they could find. After Manchester’s first low-height Fleetlines were delivered in 1966 the two operators both worked through to Partington, although Manchester had a smaller share of full length journeys due to their monopoly of the peak hour extras.

The 99 took an extremely circuitous route on its way from Manchester to Sale. Leaving Manchester in a southerly direction via Princess Road and Princess Parkway, it continued southwards to the Royal Thorn roundabout, around seven miles from the city centre. It then turned west onto the A560 as if bound for Altrincham, but after a mile or so turned northwards to serve the Wendover Road part of Manchester’s Northern Moor housing estate. Continuing via Maple Road it then turned right into Brooklands Road and travelled north north west to Brooklands Station, then west into Marsland Road (briefly joining the number 50) and right into Washway Road. Half a mile later it turned right into Ashfield Road, passing Sale Station before forking left onto Broad Road and then travelling via Priory Road and Dane Road to its terminus at a triangular island on the corner of Dane Road and Temple Road. Or, to put it another way, immediately outside my parents’ house. The service operated every 20 mins at peak times and half-hourly at other times. When I arrived in Sale it was being worked by a mixture of “Phoenix” and “Orion” bodied Daimler CVGs, but at the end of the 1960s it became one of the first services to be worked by Ralph Bennett’s new “Mancunian” double-deckers. Imagine my surprise when I woke up one morning to see the new equipment on its first regular working into Sale – I’d already seen many of them on other services but that morning the future arrived at Dane Road!

The 150/151/152 were peak hour only limited stop services aimed at commuters working in the city centre. The 150 started at the North Parade terminus of (all day) service 113 but eschewed Derbyshire Road South for a route via Norris Road, Conway Road, Sale Moor, and Sale Station before leaving the borough as an express to Manchester Central Station and “Piccadilly” (actually Parker Street). The other two services both started at the Woodheys terminus, just off the A56 at the southern end of Sale, and then ran as expresses to the city centre – “Exchange” (St Mary’s Gate) in the case of the 151 and Chorlton Street Bus Station for the 152. Equipment on all three services varied, although it was always noticeable that the 150 (which served council estates) got very old buses while the 151/152 (which served a relatively posh area) were worked by much newer ones. Double-deckers were the norm until 1966 when single-deck Panther Cubs began to appear on the 151/152.

The 201 was a latecomer to the scene, starting in 1969, and ran from Woodhouse Lane (to the west of the A56 near Woodheys) to Sale Station, Sale Moor, and North Parade. The concept of a local route serving Woodhouse Lane had been raised sporadically since the late 1930s, but the 1928 agreement between the Corporation and North Western proved to be a major hurdle. Woodhouse Lane was in North Western territory while any realistic town centre terminus would be in Corporation country. North Western had little genuine interest in providing the service (as 80% of any revenues would pass to MCTD – the A56 itself was considered to be on the Corporation side of the line) but was equally reluctant to let Manchester break the 1928 agreement. North Western wanted a larger share of the revenues than Manchester was willing to offer. Stalemate ensued for more than three decades, illustrating all that was wrong with the old system of regulation. Only the impending threat of the SELNEC pte brought a triumph for common sense. The service was operated exclusively by MCTD, initially with Panther Cubs and then by their larger cousins. Oddly, despite this fact, the number 201 had actually been allocated to the potential route by North Western during the 1962 renumbering scheme, although the route they had in mind at that time had only run from Woodhouse Lane to their Woodlands Road terminus.

Manchester Corporation also operated works services in Sale. The 71 ran from Sale Moor and Sale Station to Trafford Park while the 71x ran to the same destination from Wythenshawe Park via Sale Road, Norris Road, Sale Moor and Sale Station. In Manchester’s scheme of things an “x” suffix on a works service generally denoted one unavailable to the general public, and such services often duplicated route numbers already used by unconnected services. Such was the case with the 24x. The “ordinary” 24 was the old Yelloway service from Manchester to Rochdale (jointly operated by Manchester, Oldham, and Rochdale) while the “24x” ran from the Benchill Hotel in Wythenshawe to the Barton Dock Road industrial estate via Wythenshawe Park, Sale Road, Sale Moor, and Sale Station. The 71, 71x, and 24x were generally operated by the oldest buses Northenden garage could find.

An even stranger example of Manchester’s route numbering system could be observed running along the A56 during peak hours. The route number “0x” was used for two separate workings. The first ran from Manchester city centre via the 47 route (later the 63) as far as Broadheath and then turned westwards onto the industrial estate to terminate at the Linotype works. The other started in Altrincham at MCTD’s Downs Hotel terminus and then travelled up the A56 as far as Stretford before forking left for the Barton Dock industrial area. It was thus possible (at around 7 am on weekday mornings) to see two aging Princess Road double-deckers heading in opposite directions along the A56, wearing the same “route number” and with (usually) blank destination blinds. Hard to believe that this was the same operator which prided itself on its comprehensive destination displays. A second “Linotype bound” 0x headed southwards through Sale at around 8.15 am and this journey (for salaried staff!) was operated for a time by Manchester’s last Crossleys. Despite being a restricted service I managed to ride to school on it on many occasions – the conductors didn’t seem very bothered about the licensing rules and even less bothered about collecting fares from weird schoolboys who liked old buses!
Beside the 71 from Sale Moor to Trafford Park, there was one more MCTD works service from the area which wore a “proper” route number as opposed to one of the “x” designations. This was the 149 which ran from Ashton-on-Mersey via the 91 route as far as Stretford and then into Trafford Park. I have attempted to research this service (which I never saw operating in ten years of living in Sale) but the evidence seems to be contradictory. There is no trace of a licence application for the service in the Corporation’s 1931 applications to the new Traffic Commissioners, suggesting that it was a later innovation. However, according to the terms of the 1928 agreement between Manchester and North Western any new service introduced after that treaty should have been jointly operated by both signatories – at least on paper if not in practice. Can anybody out there enlighten me on this subject?

Neville Mercer
03/2014

Link to view Part Two – North Western


21/03/14 – 18:07

Thank you, Neville for this insight into an area I only had limited knowledge of. These memories are the reasons why we are now still bus enthusiasts – not for any misguided rose-tinted nostalgia but simply because we had so much variety to see and search for. Who can imagine today’s youngsters having the same interest (assuming you could get them to lift their heads up from a phone/games machines and look out of the window)?

Paul Haywood


21/03/14 – 18:07

Brings back happy memories of my time at Sale (1976 – 1980) – and Manchester (1971 – 1975). What I cannot understand is the licencing of the area. Sale was in Cheshire (until 1974) and North Western was the local operator. Manchester was the neighbour from Lancashire. Why did they have the services east of the A56 of right? SELNEC (1969) and then GMT (1974) would obviously have changed this and I only knew Sale in GMT days. The low height Manchester Met-Camm Atlanteans were common fayre on the 222 to Partington – past my home on Ashton Lane. I was annoyed when it was changed to 262. The alliteration of 222 to Partington was lost for ever!

David Oldfield


22/03/14 – 08:33

An excellent piece Neville, redolent with memories. Two comments:
The 4400 batch had bodies unique to Manchester. Whilst they had components from both the Phoenix and the Orion, the former well regarded by Albert Neal though no longer in production, the latter in its early form immediately rejected, I can find no record of the type being given a name. They certainly were as good as the Phoenix bodies and better than the Orion’s on the 3400 class of PD2s, so it is interesting to speculate about just how those Orion bodies were purchased given the next two body orders went to Northern Counties and Burlingham.
Did MCW refuse to produce more or did Mr Neal relent and, given the work MCW had put into beefing up the Orion, decide to give it a try?
Regarding route numbers, the 0x route number was also used by Princess Rd for weekend workings to Baguley Sanitoriums, now Wythenshawe Hospital.

Phil Blinkhorn


22/03/14 – 12:07

David, the situation re MCTD and North Western is rather complex and was also replicated in Stockport and Oldham.
To simplify a very tortuous situation which pertained for over 50 years, North Western was the interloper, having expanded from a small base in Macclesfield and then centred itself on Stockport with depots around Cheshire and, oddly, Oldham. It also had a depot in Manchester.
Wherever it tried to gain routes in and to Stockport, Manchester and Oldham it originally met opposition from the local councils. In 1928 the establishment of the cross Manchester express services led to NWRCC being invited into Manchester from various parts of Cheshire on a “by arrangement” basis with some fairly complex fare and running arrangements. Generally North Western’s own routes into the city which they operated almost under sufferance terminated at the inconvenient outpost of Lower Mosley St but services which had had joint operation as part of the express arrangements ended up at Parker St when the services were truncated and cut in two.
In terms of the Sale and Stretford areas, MCTD had its own problems with Stretford Council and some of the development by NWRCC through and to the west of the boroughs was as a result of these difficulties but Manchester always was the major provider along the corridor as Altrincham, Sale and Stretford had no bus operations of their own. It was recognised, however unwillingly, as the 20th century progressed, that the majority of people moving out to housing along the corridor were employed either in the city centre or in Trafford Park and MCTD was the natural provider, a situation that expanded when the city council built overspill housing in the Partington area and provided the bus service as a consequence, NWRCC being allowed to participate, again in a complex manner in regard to presence, mileage and revenue and pretty much as the junior partner.
NWRCC’s junior status led to its eventual demise. With the bulk of its revenue being provided by services into the SELNEC area, or by the hard won services entirely within the conurbation, it could not compete and the end of the BET empire saw National Bus unwilling to keep the rather overpowered company in existence.

Phil Blinkhorn


08/04/14 – 07:58

Manchester Corporation’s “Exchange” destination probably referred to the Royal Exchange building, which is bounded by Exchange Street, Market Street and Cross Street just a few yards east of St Mary’s Gate.

Peter Williamson


08/04/14 – 17:00

Exchange was used as a terminus by Manchester trams. After the war a complete block was cleared and Exchange Gardens were created. Although there quite a few services called there, it doesn’t seem to have been generally used as a terminus. Despite that I used to catch a special 40 (the old 40) working that started from there in the morning and went through Piccadilly and down Portland Street. Confusion was caused by buses terminating on Cross Street also using “Exchange” as the destination.

David Beilby


09/04/14 – 08:20

It’s correct that several routes passing by St Mary’s Gate used it only as the ‘Exchange’ stop. However, a couple of routes spring to mind that terminated there up to the end of MCTD activities namely the 102 to Wythenshawe and the 64 (nee 48) to Altrincham. I think the 151 express from Woodheys also terminated there though I never saw one in service, but then again I never knew that an (old) 40 commenced there rather than the Waldorf Café on Princess Street at one time so I live and learn.

Orla Nutting


09/04/14 – 08:21

I didn’t know about “Exchange Gardens”, which explains a lot. My comment was actually intended for the Introduction section of this article, which mentions “Exchange”, as the terminus of the 48, not being anywhere near Exchange Station or the Corn Exchange. My recollection is that the 48 and 102 (Woodhouse Park) used “Exchange” to denote St Mary’s Gate, whereas the 41 used “Royal Exchange” to denote Cross Street.

Peter Williamson


09/04/14 – 18:03

I think the information from both Orla and Peter regarding Exchange and St Mary’s Gardens is substantively correct. I’m still travelling so can’t access my archive but will be home just before Easter and will see if I can add anything then.
One thing I can say for certain is that the ‘old’ 40 only reached that part of town in peak periods and only certain workings. The rest all finished in Albert Sq, and were supposed to run empty into Princess St and start outside the cafe opposite the side of the town hall.

Phil Blinkhorn


11/04/14 – 06:34

Sale would also see the green buses of Salford City Transport a couple of times a day as they shared the operation of the Churchill’s (Broadheath) to Broughton service (47 Salford, 47x Manchester) with Manchester Corporation.

John Hodkinson


11/04/14 – 17:46

Are you sure that Salford actually operated on this one, John? The reason I’m querying it is because the buses from Churchill’s (and Linotype) used to travel along Washway Road on weekday afternoons just as I was travelling home after detention (!) and I saw many Manchester Corporation 47Xs (usually displaying blanks in their destination apertures) but no Salford vehicles in five years of this routine. I think that if they did take an active role it must have been in the mornings only. Do we have any Salford experts in the house?

Neville Mercer


12/04/14 – 08:03

I have a copy of “Old Gillander’s”, a directory of Manchester services put together by Mike Eyre from notes made by the erstwhile Traffic Superintendent (or some similar post). This 47 service is listed together with the 52x and 84x, and there is a specific reference to it being jointly operated in 1937, but no further reference.
Works services don’t seem to have appeared in Manchester timetables until around 1960, but they are shown after that as the 47x initially, then latterly as a 63x (63 being the new number for the parent 47) or as 0x. There is no reference to Salford on the timetables, nor does my 1967 Salford timetable show this service, but I’m not sure whether Salford would list such services.

David Beilby


13/04/14 – 07:16

Salford were certainly operating some journeys on the 47x from Churchill’s to Broughton in the 1950s and 1960s. It was also included in their timetable books in the 50s and 60s.
The only journey that I can recall for certain is the overtime bus (probably on a Tues and Thurs evening) but I think they also operated one of the morning journeys.

John Hodkinson


04/10/14 – 07:15

I have just discovered this wonderful article. I lived in Sale until 1966. From 1962-1965 I went to school in Manchester on the 48, or the 151 if I made it to my stop on Washway Road at the end of The Avenue early enough. Contrary to the suggestion that Woodheys got posh buses, I don’t recall anything but some of the last Crossleys. In response to one of the other questions, I think I would definitely have remembered Salford buses on Washway Road if there have ever been any. I too vividly remember the first Mancunians appearing on the 99, and the impressive sight of the Alexander bodied NWRCC Fleetlines trying to get up School Road faster than walking pace on a Saturday morning.
Fortunately my parents indulged me so our shopping trips to the city often used the 50 or 99 as a treat for me. My country visits to Cheshire were to my grandparents in Middlewich, where I discovered the Bristol/ECW combination, which was just as well as I moved to Redcar in United country in 1966. Thank you so much.

Chris Moore


22/04/17 – 10:05

I would like to point out that the 91 route started in 1936 and was originally the 72 and terminated at Ashton Park. It was extended a little later to the junction of Dunbar Lane/Church Lane at the back of the village shops and then re-routed via Grosvenor Road and Ashton Lane to the corner of Buck Lane. The final terminus before continuation to Partington was at the junction of Manor Avenue and Carrington Lane.
The route was renumbered to the 91 in 1947. There was a works weekday service provided in the late 1950’s from Ashton to Trafford Park numbered 149.

Phil Thom


24/04/17 – 07:45

Excellent factual and nostalgic article.
With reference to Salford operating on the 47x works service to/from Churchills at Broadheath I don’t know if they actually did physically operate on the route although it was shown as a joint service, but I can show a timetable page from the SCT Timetable 1952.

David J Smith


24/04/17 – 07:47

The question of Salford Buses along Washway Road, Sale is an interesting one. I Joined Salford City Transport in 1965, working in the wages dept and later on in the Traffic Office. Let me say firstly that I have no recollection of Salford Buses running to Sale. However and secondly, looking at the history of Churchills (see under Graces Guide to Industrial History) Churchills were a Salford business from the early 1900’s and they outgrew the factory in Broughton, Salford. After acquiring land and building a new factory in Broadheath, Altrincham in the 1920’s it is certainly conceivable that Salford ran buses to the new factory there for the workforce, who were domiciled in Salford. Churchills played an important part in the manufacturing process of aviation materials and in war time, were involved in other manufacturing processes.

Mike Norris


25/04/17 – 07:17

In Thanking David S for showing the 1952 Salford Timetable, I have looked further and checked the 1975 TPC Book by Ted Gray – Salford City Transport. In the 1968 list of services, shown, is the part day 47 service, and shown as joint with Manchester. Towards the back of the book the map section, dated 1969 it shows the main all day services and the part day services, but the 47 had disappeared. And one last thought, the Salford bus livery was red until Mr Blakemore changed that to green, so until around 1947, a Salford bus would not have stood out against its counterpart Manchester buses in Sale.

Mike Norris


27/04/17 – 10:38

Regarding the change of Salford’s livery, this was nothing to do with the hapless Mr Blakemore whose ineptitude had not only almost run the Salford fleet into the ground but had attracted the detailed attention of government officialdom not a few times during World War 2.
Totally out of his depth, when he eventually departed in 1946, he had already overseen the ordering of no fewer than three chassis types for double deckers to be delivered in 1947, a major nonsense for an engineering department short on expertise and with a long list of problems to solve within the existing fleet.
His replacement, Charles Baroth, amongst a multitude of changes and improvements, had the livery changed from red and ivory to green and primrose, not only to distinguish the vehicles from Manchester’s but to highlight his new regime, arranging for the first few of the 1947 deliveries already in the red scheme to be repainted immediately after and before delivery, the rest were painted green as they came off the body builders’ lines.

Phil Blinkhorn

Buses and Coaches in Sale

Introduction

Until the age of nine I lived in a small village near Northwich in the middle of Cheshire. One of the delights of these younger years was the monthly family shopping trip to Manchester, usually on a Saturday, which involved a long journey on North Western’s route 36. By the early 1960s the vehicles involved were inevitably double-deckers with the “KDB” batch of PD2/21s with lowbridge Orion bodywork the most frequent, backed up as required by pre-war Bristol K5Gs with post-war Willowbrook bodies. I know that most people (myself included) consider the Orion body to be an example of engineering which could only be loved by an accountant, but I still have a soft-spot for the “KDBs” and would be ecstatic to discover that the only vehicle from the batch with no known demise (KDB 666 which was exported to Canada) had in fact survived. The K5Gs were also marvellous machines from the viewpoint of a small child, although less popular with crew members. On one Saturday morning in 1960 one of the venerable K5Gs broke down between Tabley and Altrincham and North Western’s Manchester depot sent out a brand new Loline II with East Lancs bodywork in its place. This created quite a stir among country folk who had never seen a forward entrance double-decker. Sadly it was not a shopping day so I had to content myself with gazing at the newfangled intruder.

From my home village the number 36 took the “B” road to Tabley and then joined the A556, which merged with the A56 at the Lymm turn-off before entering the Manchester conurbation via the posh suburb of Bowdon and the equally posh market town of Altrincham. Altrincham bus station was a good place to get my notebook and pencil out as North Western’s local garage had many types not found in the Northwich area. In addition there were the first Manchester Corporation buses to be logged, operating from a street terminus at The Downs Hotel to both Piccadilly (route number 47) and Exchange (route 48). At least those were the destinations on the front of the MCTD buses, although the “Piccadilly” terminus was identical to the location shown more accurately on North Western’s 36 as “Manchester Parker Street” and the “Exchange” terminus was better described as “St Mary’s Gate”, being some distance from Exchange railway station and equally distant from the Corn Exchange building which overlooked the bus station normally described as “Cannon Street”.
After pausing at Altrincham the 36 became a Limited Stop “by arrangement with Manchester Corporation” service. In theory it was available to local passengers from the few stops which it observed, but in reality North Western drivers became selectively blind when hailed en route and sailed serenely by without any attempt to pick up. Passengers at certain stops close to traffic lights were wise to this and would attempt to board, some of them being told fanciful lies by conductors who had already completed their waybills after leaving Altrincham!

The next municipality after Altrincham was the Borough of Sale, a small village which had been transformed into a sizeable “dormitory town” for Manchester after the opening of the Manchester, South Junction, and Altrincham Railway. For a young bus enthusiast passing through on a number 36 Sale had several attractions. The route passed the terminus of MCTD route 50 (operated by Northenden depot) and directly opposite was the main garage of Altrincham Coachways – since 1958 a subsidiary of North Western and operating a pleasing variety of Weymann Fanfares, Burlingham Seagulls, Harrington Wayfarer IVs, and Willowbrook Vikings seconded from the parent fleet. They looked rather odd in Altrincham Coachways’ blue and cream livery.

A quarter of a mile further on a glimpse might be caught of an Atkinson Alpha saloon crossing the main road at a right angle on North Western’s service 103 from Sale to Ashton-on-Mersey, and after another quarter of a mile the 36 passed the premises of Pride of Sale although the garage doors were habitually closed. This annoyed me no end and I swore that some day soon I would return on my own and gain access. I later discovered that only two coaches at most were kept here, with the rest in a yard on a back street, so I would have been disappointed if the doors had been opened.

This discovery came about in the summer of 1962 when my dad got a new job at Petrochemicals’ Carrington complex and my family moved to Sale.

Neville Mercer
03/2014

Link to view Part One – Manchester Corporation

Selected Memories of the last Chief Engineer of the old big United Counties

I arrived in Northampton to take up the post of Chief Engineer of United Counties Omnibus Company (UCOC) in 1978 after training as a graduate engineer Tilling Senior Trainee at Bristol Commercial Vehicles Ltd in Bristol, Area Engineer at Eastern Counties in Norwich, Assistant Engineer at Maidstone & District and Assistant Chief Engineer at Ribble in Preston. This is a rather longer contribution than those from my previous jobs because it had such a range of activity and scope! I fear the chronology has got jumbled with so much happening in these reflections and rose-tinted spectacles may have affected the selection!

I arrived by train in Northampton to be met with my inherited company car and the General Manager’s (GM) driver. The GM’s driver reminded me of a fellow university student from the town who had the same open character and loud voice, allegedly a feature of the area due to the prevalence of very noisy shoemaking machinery! The car was a Triumph 2500 badged as a 2000 because 2500 was above the approved grade for a chief officer of a National Bus Company subsidiary company of its size. Most people knew and, to the knowledgeable, the wider rear track gave it away. I got used to cruising to Preston on Friday evenings and back on Monday early mornings, with the continuous flow of HGVs on the M6 for several months often through slush. Staying in an hotel while finding a house, it became an escape from the fine cuisine to go out for fish and chips from time to time!

The GM asked me to give him a first impressions report after one week. He considered Luton to be a major problem due to a continuing inability to meet traffic requirements with fit vehicles (let alone not able to rescue NBC vehicles in trouble on the M1). However, I reported back that Luton is a management problem – the staff are all working with gusto, but at Bedford, not seen as a problem, staff were wandering about between workshops with two managers who didn’t seem to work together.

RUNNING BUSES

In my first week I had a swift tour of my inheritance bounded by Daventry, Corby, Huntingdon, Hitchin, Luton, Aylesbury, and Bletchley with Johnny Johnson the soon-to-retire Assistant Engineer. I was worried at the implication of posters asking ‘do you know how much an engine air filter costs?’ I soon noticed several vehicles with holes punched in their engine air intake trunking for the use of easy-start and hence the ready ingress of dirt! After one visit, Johnny said “Did you see the air intake trunking on that VRT?” – “No” – “I didn’t think you did – there wasn’t one!” Other questions constantly brought forth the replies: “We used to…” or “We ought to….”
Johnny spent his mornings ringing every depot to see if they had met service and, if not why not, so he could report to the GM. He would then round up the needed components and race off in his car to deliver them. This was rather foreign to me after the calm at Ribble!

When I arrived, Luton depot was running short of 40 vehicles for service on top of its engineering spares allocation. (I had a nomenclature problem at first, often double correcting myself and calling it Chatham because the M&D Chatham depot was called Luton!) NBC took over Luton Corporation Transport and moved everything into the existing UCOC garage rather too soon, as a director later admitted to me.

It took time, (with new format Standing Instructions, Technical Instructions, All Depot Instructions, depot vehicle routine maintenance planning and record charts, every form scrutinised for purpose and ability to be filled in with a ‘thick pencil’, and soon a 4-weekly maintenance costing report for each depot) but we eventually got down to a weekly return of maintenance carried out and units changed. This fed into a new manual record system (“We used to..”) which enabled me to flick through each vehicle for unit life and engine fuel and lubricating oil consumption at a whim. Also, we were meeting service! When Johnny retired, Jim Weeks from Southdown helped me instil calmness and was soon whisked away to Cumberland and later as Chief Engineer at Northern General. He was followed by Peter Adams from Crosville who did a very professional job overseeing the Works, converting a batch of VRTs with 501 engines to Gardner 6LXB and then flat front VRT2s into VRT3 specification. This latter was initiated because the growth of Milton Keynes and its frequent roundabouts brought an urgent need to fit the later standard VRT3 full power steering. We had given up on the bolt-on solutions. He also developed the Works’ ability to install and maintain air conditioning units which served as a useful tool post Ridley!

At central works the AEU shop steward, who was an engine reconditioner, grumpily brought to my personal attention a seized Leyland engine that had come in for overhaul from Luton which he had only reconditioned earlier the same year.

I dug into this seizure from a former Luton Corporation RELL. Engine changes were quite efficiently dealt with either at Luton or at Bedford, but the need for them caused me concern. So, I was able to consult the vehicle’s record card to see that it had three reconditioned engines within two years but no radiator changes. Digging around at Luton, I discovered that the Drivers’ Daily Defects sheets were promptly put in a drawer after the running shift had dealt with what they could, and never looked at again. I made the Depot Engineer, sitting in a bus at the garage, aware that it was his job to monitor defect reports and make sure they had been fully dealt with and I was not too happy with his performance! He found another job quite soon. I could see no outstanding talent in the company for his replacement at our biggest and busiest depot. I advertised for a replacement and found a young GPO fleet engineer who I brought back for a second interview because he seemed too good to be true! Within a year of starting, he came to me and said I’ve done what you said – we are meeting traffic requirements with some real spares, we have restarted the M1 recovery service for NBC, what shall I do now – I said ‘Keep doing it until the Area Engineer retires’. In the meantime our radiator reconditioner had come to me with a scheme for an annual change of all vehicle radiators (including heaters and demisters) – Luton was the pilot depot and it worked.

In those times, the Certificate of Fitness (COF) for a vehicle expired after seven years from new. Subsequent re-certification was usually for six years, then five and so on. In common with many companies expiry of COFs was a serious matter as the recertification examinations were getting tougher and no COF meant vehicle off road. At an early stage I found that we were overhauling vehicles in Central Works on an age basis. I was happy with the standard and level of work and particularly liked the recently overhauled fleet of RELH dual purpose vehicles re-trimmed in standard NBC moquette! I could see problems over the next 2-3 years due to large batches of new vehicles 7 years earlier. I had heard of some NBC companies farming out COF preparation to contractors across the country at great expense and of a case of fraud. I calculated that with anticipated new vehicle intakes and, if we recertified every vehicle as it was overhauled, the problem would level out and go away. The cost of the re-certification examination by the Ministry of Transport was peanuts. After speaking to the East Midland Traffic Area Certifying Officer at Northampton (who thought I must be daft) and then with the Eastern and Metropolitan Traffic Areas, I instructed that after every Works overhaul a vehicle would be recertified, whatever its expiry date! It just happened – no problems, no outside contractor costs!

To overcome previous maintenance difficulties and to save taking in other companies’ cast-offs, to the detriment of maintaining the home fleet, 110 Bedford/ Willowbrook buses had been added to the fleet in the early 1970s. They most probably saved the company from floundering. Depots just phoned up the local Bedford dealer for parts and could order a half engine, with no central control, to keep them on the road. In their latter days, we brought engine rebuilds into the Works and all Bedford parts were supplied through the central stores after I appointed a Stores and Purchasing Controller from Rockwell Glass to make both functions operate very much more effectively. A final batch of 10 Ford /Duple buses was added with NBC ignoring my predecessor’s vehement complaints of non-standardisation and they were soon shifted out.

With better financing, the company was able to afford large intakes of new heavy-weight vehicles in my latter years. We had a phase when every double decker in the fleet was a Gardner-engined Bristol VRT. I cautiously ordered a small number of the new, unseen, untried Olympians, but despite central NBC, the SE Regional Director rehashed the orders between his companies that year. Our last batch of VRTs were ready for service but held in store at non-operational Desborough garage – they were sent to Eastern Counties who didn’t want new-fangled vehicles but could repaint these red! Instead, we were topped up to a total of 20 Olympians from Alder Valley and Southdown – who couldn’t afford their orders. I had specified our Olympians with an axle ratio for town service at Bedford and Luton -a slower top-speed and faster acceleration. Three chassis from Alder Valley had already been specified and built with high speed, lower acceleration, so those spent their lives in the countryside around Northampton depot. We were offered and took an extra batch of the last Leyland National Mk 1 that seemed surplus to NBC requirements. When NBC deleted the white band on these vehicles to save cost, we painted the band on before they entered service. This was a kick back against a colleague from my Norwich days, by then at NBC head office, who persisted in referring to the company as ‘Untidy Counties’. We kept to hand-painting at central works during my time. There was nothing more satisfying than looking around the Works before going home on Friday evenings to see the paint and overhaul output awaiting collection over the weekend!

BUILDINGS

The GM had rapidly raised the company from one that nearly went bankrupt to reasonably prosperous, amongst other things, by talking nicely to county councils. An engineer, he had already started to spend money on aged maintenance facilities. In the meantime, the most visible signs were the provision of heavy duty rubber curtains around the narrow pits in open garages.
Building maintenance annual funding was also coming through such that over following years we were able to reroof several depots and the Works and improve heating with gas fired overhead radiant tubes. Rance Muscott kept the buildings maintenance underway and got on with the routine redecoration work using the surprisingly varied NBC corporate decoration schemes.
GM asked me to plan a scheme for Wellingborough depot in my first weeks. I found myself working on my hotel bed and doodled a hole in the garage’s back wall, a drive through washer, and new enclosed pits on the other side of garage. This meant that the work could be done whilst vehicles were still maintained behind the heavy duty curtains! He said that it was rather more than he intended to spend but went with it. Bit of a strategic failure – as the depot was closed and sold in 1990, but then we, and many others, hadn’t anticipated Nicholas Ridley becoming Mrs Thatcher’s Secretary of State for Transport!
In 1976, the company’s Northampton Derngate bus station which doubled as covered vehicle parking had been sold to the council in exchange for new facilities incorporated into the new vast Greyfriars building. I became aware of the former when its temporary use, before change of ownership was completed, as a grain silo causing the sprouting grain to block the drains. The latter came to my attention with constant complaints from office staff of poor ventilation, being purely mechanically ventilated with no opening windows. The latter situation was taken well into account later when the original new Milton Keynes bus station and offices were specified with opening windows! Vehicles were parked overnight in Greyfriars which had a fuelling and drive through wash but no other maintenance facilities.

On one occasion a vehicle was stolen and driven away, causing havoc to several cars in a narrow residential road. Our insurers fought claims from the insurers of those damaged cars against us for not keeping our vehicles secure. My evidence was that the risk of damage to the business by fire destroying the fleet was far greater and ability to drive the vehicles out without delay was paramount. We won the case. Greyfriars later still became nationally famous as being voted the third most hated building in Britain and indeed was duly demolished in 2015.

I was aware that plans were underway to improve Northampton depot maintenance facilities, which were housed in part of the Art Deco head office and central works complex at Bedford Road.
When working on the Wellingborough plans with the Regional Architect, I intimated that I was not happy with my predecessor’s Northampton project and the more I saw the plans, the more I worried. Indeed, I was not convinced that a bus could be readily backed out of the proposed inspection / MOT/ brake test bay and there was nowhere to store tyre stocks or for the tyre man to work. It also dawned on me that the plans did not allow for separation of the central works and depot running shift. The depot staff had had free rein over the years to plunder the Works for anything out of hours with resultant overhaul scheduling delays. So, we added a proper store indent and separate staff facilities and a lock or two! This meant that it would encroach more into the central works space and areas used for unit reconditioning would be devoured. Happily, there was a large new building extending the central workshops, laughingly known as the new paint shop, but had never been used as such. So, I set the Assistant Engineer / Works to design how he wanted it and to gradually shift reconditioning into the area. He did a grand job and it must have given him some satisfaction in his run up to retirement. I recall musing with the GM one evening when admiring the recently completed depot facility “a bus company can run without a central works, but not without a depot” which turned out to be very prophetic and the norm from 1986!

Thereafter building projects rolled out. Milton Keynes Development Corporation was going great guns and our small garages at Stony Stratford and Bletchley came under pressure. A redundant bakery was made available for conversion into a temporary new workshop. This was to suffice until a new bus depot for 100+ vehicles was constructed at Winterhill alongside the West Coast mainline. The NBC regional architect had to make it “look like an upside-down biscuit tin, preferably with no chimneys”! I got stuck into how it would be run: – as a small depot to start with and later with up to 100 vehicles; a running shift facility that left the main workshops secure out of daytime hours; vehicle washing either by service driver or shunter; a simple parking scheme so that everyone could readily identify vehicles that were ready for service and those waiting attention; a single point for a supervisor to see every bus leave at morning run-out. I reckon I got it right – I would, wouldn’t I? The only failing was that the pits were too wide for minibuses which became a major vogue soon after, but that was readily dealt with. The first thing the architect got the contractor to do was to lay three small samples of smooth concrete and to draw different stiff brushes across them so we could decide and preserve the finish to be used in the workshops and parking areas! Alas, the site has become a retail superstore area!

The financial and legal arrangements with the Development Corporation for the Winterhill depot and new bus station led to NBC recommending a specialist solicitor from Newcastle upon Tyne. The solicitor was a real character – often using the expression “My dear old thing..” while brushing the Woodbine ash off his overcoat. From his manner we did not expect him to know much about operating buses, but he amazed us with his grasp of the precise details of operations and the possible scenarios that could cause us grief. Indeed, he tied it up so well, that there was some doubt that UCOC would be able to extract itself when privatised and I think that is why Milton Keynes City Bus was set up as a very small company, that could fail without causing widespread damage when UCOC was split up!

Significant work vastly improved the Bedford maintenance facilities (still in use!) and Luton had a bodyshop and MOT inspection bay with brake tester incorporated, now the site is abandoned. At Kettering, such was the layout of the garage that we installed a ‘drive through’ bus wash which gave a very good clean because you had to reverse into it and drive back out again!

STAFFING

I inherited a near-retirement Assistant Engineer and an Area Engineer. Also an Area Engineer who soon moved to assist NBC Regional Engineering Office. We recruited a very able Area Engineer from UAS, and another from South Wales to replace them. We promoted the assistant to Depot Engineer at Northampton and brought more northern talent from UAS as deputy at Luton.
We could not get a Works Manager to replace Jock, and the new Area Engineer volunteered to take on the Works as well, which he duly did very effectively, before being shifted off to be Fleet Engineer for the newly split off Luton and District company.

We soon had a very much stronger supervisory team performing well. Indeed, when times got a bit tight, I thought that we had too many managers and took a large step to reduce costs by making three Depot Engineers redundant with their Area Engineers tasked to run the depot as well. We did upgrade the Milton Keynes depot to be an Area to cope with all the constant growth and change. That was one of my hairiest decisions but was topped by making 90 redundant as United Counties Engineering was reduced to cope with the new situation of having no tied customers. This latter confirmed my view not to trust the press. I had toyed with the idea of providing a press release embargoed until after I had told the employees, then had cold feet. I sent that notification after I had already told the staff from the top of a painters’ tower, only to hear on local radio later that “employees at UCE will be hearing bad news today” – they had misread the date and would have broadcast that comment before my announcement, had I sent it as intended originally!

Despite an ever-aggravating T&GWU shop steward the central works was also represented by the AEU. I still don’t understand how we ended up with an engineering staff strike at the Works and Northampton depot for a week over training of apprentices! I wanted an apprentice training officer to run a rotating programme for all depot and works apprentices and keep their further education on track. Eventually we ended up with the AEU shop steward as the engineering training officer which he carried out very successfully until and beyond his retirement!

It might have had something to do with the work study based incentive scheme – a source of continual aggravation within many companies, but I don’t think it was. When we were allowed to negotiate it out, I did my homework very thoroughly and was able to lower percentage additions for unsocial shifts to keep the overall costs very similar.

CORPORATE PLAN

When Sir Freddie Wood chaired National Bus Company he wanted to be able to show off his empire, hitherto hidden by local liveries and names from easy identification. Standardised liveries, logos and procedures started flowing through. I never fathomed why buses were red or green and not red or blue! Perhaps as chair of a paint company he knew something about blue paint (not that the poppy red stayed red but faded pink and the green was not so vibrant as Tilling green!). Then we had corporate plans. These seemed a bind at first, but I soon discovered that if you can get capital expenditure into the plan it just flowed through – lorries (how many times did we replace the stores lorry without a disposal?), vans, cars, garage sit-on sweepers, floor scrubbers, push-around bus washes. National maintenance schedules were imposed which seemed to sorely perplex some of my colleagues. I took the view that we maintained buses satisfactorily and we just needed to fit what we were already doing into a different (but very similar) form. Don’t hassle the workers with unnecessary change!

The company had what I have come to call a canteen culture that endured in the southern depots which came from ENOC in 1952, but when splitting in 1989, Luton and District which was in the Metropolitan Traffic Area took with it Hitchen and Aylesbury; Bedford stayed with the pre-1952 UCOC depots and Milton Keynes was separated. This I think was because the agreements between UCOC and the MKDC over the bus station and the Winterhill depot had been tied up so tightly that it was thought most likely to fail and if so would not affect the rest of the company. United Counties Engineering was grouped with similar fellow company central works for sale. I went for MD of the Engineering part, not expecting to be a suitable hands-on candidate to make Fleet Engineer in Stagecoach style!

THE END

The remaining UCOC was bought by Stagecoach, one of three direct from NBC. Luton & District eventually ended up with Arriva, Milton Keynes Citybus became a political football between the Competition and Markets Authority and Stagecoach with several, sometimes enforced, changes of ownership. United Counties Engineering failed after a gamekeeper turned poacher bought the engineering group through Frontsource and passed them to Vancrown to close them all. This led to my redundancy without any of the terms agreed with NBC and having to go to an Employment Tribunal to be declared redundant and to claim the due minimum redundancy payment from government. I couldn’t help constantly remembering a meeting of managers with the Transport Secretary Nicholas Ridley (who was determined to split the NBC up into small competing units, unlike his predecessor who was on the verge of selling NBC off to its management like British Road Services) saying that some of you will be millionaires in a few years and others won’t be. Guess what!

Jan & Sept 2024

Selected Memories of an Engineer at Ribble

After graduate training at Bristol Commercial Vehicles, I started my career at the frugal but efficient Tilling Group’s Eastern Counties. When the National Bus Company (NBC) was formed, opportunities increased and I moved to Maidstone and District – an ex-BET group company that liked its heritage, invested in lots of new vehicles but nothing in its maintenance facilities; even worse, Area Manager’s seemed to usurp the Chief Engineer. Arriving at Ribble in 1972 was like returning to a vastly upgraded Eastern Counties! Good systems that were engrained, still working with competent staff and well managed. The Frenchwood engineering offices were more like a grand stately home compared to the pre-fab at Maidstone!

Harry Tennant had been Chief Engineer since 1949 and presided over this efficiency yet was happy to try new things (“last time we did it that way – … this happened, but let’s give it another go”). When I was appointed as Assistant Chief Engineer, a new post of Works Manager was also created to assist in managing a time-consuming shop steward at the central workshops, so Ron Hopkins was able to free me of my predecessor’s travails. The four Area Engineers had their patches under full control so my post was basically a monitoring and coordinating post and overlooking the Certificate of Fitness situation and liaison with Leyland and the Assistant Traffic Managers.
I enjoyed working with Harry Tennant. At that time, work study bonus incentives had had to be introduced as being the only way allowed to raise wages to retain skilled men. Harry was not very tolerant of the work study staff. In earlier times, he and Assistant Engineer Ron Holding (by the 1970s Ron was Chief Engineer at Crosville) had set to on a Saturday morning to replace the cylinder head gaskets on a Leyland engine and knew just how long it would take. He expected the same of his managers and their skilled staff without the need for work study engineers. When, in my time, the work study scheme was extended to cleaners, I set about using the experience at Maidstone to set down cleaning procedures, only to be told very forcibly, that Ribble has perfectly acceptable cleaning procedures and the purpose of the work study scheme is simply to pay more!

Harry did insist that all letters sent out were signed as H Tennant. I said that I was not prepared to sign his name but would sign my name and add “for” H Tennant. He agreed. The history to this was that as a teenage lad I had written to the Bristol Omnibus Company for a holiday job and had received a reply from E Hardy, Chief Engineer. I was very impressed that the Chief Engineer had sent the letter but was devastated when I turned up for interview to be told that the little squiggle alongside the signature meant that the lowly Personnel Manager had written and signed it. I decided then to refuse to sign anyone else’s name thereafter!

While starting his bus career with Leyland, Harry was not averse, over many years, to prod the company into new ways. In early times he had put Sentinel underfloor engined vehicles through Leyland town on service to point up the lack of a similar local product. He didn’t like the very flexible Panther chassis and, before NBC was formed, got BET to order Bristol REs instead. Then not liking the thirstiness of Leyland engines, bought another batch with Gardner engines. When British Leyland were a near monopoly supplier, he got NBC to back him fitting a 680 engine into a Leyland National to prove to Leyland management that it could be done, so as to replace the fixed-head 510 engine that was proving so costly to run and maintain. Frenchwood Works also undertook for NBC the conversion of a specially purchased short Leyland National bus to operate on electric power, towing a trailer full of batteries. It first ran in 1975 and spent some time with Crosville on the Runcorn Busway. It has taken around 45 more years for a battery electric bus without a trailer to operate in service!

When we went to Duple to discuss the first large order for Dominant coaches, Harry took with him the coach seat back profile that he had developed as the standard for Ribble coaches. He insisted on it being the profile to be used. He also insisted that the vehicle electrics fuse panel should be accessible for maintenance from outside the cab as was the case on Bristol VRs at the time. I added in that there should be an external access flap for screen washer refill. These became features for all the NBC order, not just Ribble. Harry had also decided some years before that the traditional illuminated company name across the back of coaches was not desirable. I’m not sure whether it was a response to having to mask it before spray painting or the maintenance of the glazing.

My contacts with Leyland Bus were regular, mainly with Graham Dandridge. It was a period when they were the monopoly supplier and were showing little signs of taking much notice of operator feed-back. One repeated item was a campaign change of the differential unit in the 30 Standerwick VRL double deck coaches over two winters. The Leyland 680 Power Plus engine running with a high gearing ratio soon pointed up weaknesses that were not seen in lesser powered stage vehicles, leading to substantial redesign at Bristol (by then part of Leyland Bus). Besides all the growing pains of the Leyland Nationals, one recurring problem was newer Leopard coaches running out of power on motorway inclines, whereas the VRL double deck would happily overtake. A sign of terminal malaise was not alleviated by the answer that the Power Plus version of the 680 engine cannot be fitted into the Leopard.

When I arrived, the introduction of one-man operation of double decks was getting underway. From experience at Norwich and Maidstone, I was aware that this was accelerating and that all converted vehicles needed formal inspection by the Ministry. So when I found that the rear engined double decks going through overhaul at Frenchwood to renew the Certificate of Fitness (at 7 years old) were not all being converted, I insisted that they were. The traffic department had them reallocated to Kendal as soon as available.

The company operated Almex, motorised Setright and hand operated Setright and I suspect other ticket machines, so making vehicles able to operate universally without local conversion work was quite a conundrum if you wanted to be able to exchange buses between depots for maintenance, displaying all-over adverts or interworking. I set up a sub-committee of the drivers’ trade unions with the Assistant Traffic Manager through which we consulted on cab equipment. The works designed a suitable cash tray which could take brackets to suit all of these and we got designs approved for universal operation. I was taken aback when the Traffic Manager thanked us for getting him out of a particular problem with new equipment and in return he was taken aback when told it had been agreed for the whole company – Merseyside to Carlisle, Blackpool to Burnley! This enabled Ron and me to take samples to the bodybuilders and for new double decks to be certified for one man operation before delivery.

These were large batches of Leyland Atlantean AN68 double decks with Park Royal and ECW bodywork. I visited the factories, usually with Ron Hopkins, to see progress and agree details. The Park Royal version suffered a serious failure around the rear bulkhead and underwent a campaign change, but the ECW bodies seem to have been stronger.

Ribble had formerly had its own architect but NBC had regional architects’ offices, so Harry Tennant took over buildings functions. This was the norm in the Tilling Group and the smaller BET companies. Ribble always struck me as having more up to date facilities than my previous companies but they never inspired me as appearing modern, light and airy places in which to work! Skelmersdale depot was built and opened during my time, but I had little to do with its design.

Visits around depots were always interesting. I usually went to monitor how things were going on and made a point of visiting traffic supervisors to get the customer’s view of engineering’s performance. Northern area was a favourite! On my very first visit I was surprised to find two Bristol MW buses parked in Penrith garage in full dark red Ribble livery – they seemed very out of place, then I realised their parentage from the Darlington registrations and they had come with the rationalisation by NBC in Carlisle. Later, I was not popular for pointing out the last two coaches from Grange or was it Ambleside that were still in Ribble cream when National white second repaints had been running for ages! Area Engineers were left to programme vehicles into the spray paint facility at Frenchwood, so these had been deliberately omitted for old times sake as they were still in good condition. Another Harry Tennant-ism – Ribble vehicles were either wholly in Ribble red with the bubbly fleet name or National Bus poppy red and National decals – no mixtures, unlike many companies that did intermediate transformations. When on these visits, I first began to notice that the earlier Leyland Nationals appeared to be changing to a pink livery. The initial orders were delivered in dark red but were repainted in NBC poppy red at Frenchwood before entering service awaiting an agreement to operate single decks with over 47 seats as one man. So Area Engineers were asked to spot the pink ones for early repaint while Ron Hopkins tackled the paint suppliers.
Always check your facts. I recall an area engineer, new to Ribble, wanting to make a point that a driver who had seized an engine on the M6 should be sacked. I had a look at the fuel and lubricating oil consumption of the vehicle – a fairly old Leopard, and suggested that he did too: 100 mpg lubricating oil consumption doesn’t look like a driver problem to me!

Harry was promoted out of operating buses to the new position of NBC Regional Chief Engineer in October 1974. To replace him, Syd Lamb asked to ‘come home’ to Ribble, transferring from Chief Engineer of Midland Red. When National Travel North West was formed to include Standerwick, depot engineering and support remained with Ribble. As National Travel Group had its own engineering central management, I saw us as providing a service to the local management and we had no control over the vehicles ordered. Hence we found ourselves operating three Willowbrook Spacecars. Syd didn’t think we should accept this state of affairs but didn’t get anywhere changing it!
In April 1974, I went to Derby to chair a meeting of the NBC companies that provided breakdown and vehicle replacement services to the Motorway network. Ribble, especially Dawson Williams, the Central Area Engineer, knew all about the police control room systems, but we found that the United Counties company which covered the busiest southern part of the M1 had been unable to provide breakdown assistance for some time and knew nothing about police control rooms. In January 1978 I departed Preston to take up the post of Chief Engineer at United Counties and I had a great time installing working systems to replace the “we used to..” “ we ought to..” responses that greeted my initial questions around the patch and reinstating a breakdown service to the M1! That’s another story.

GHP
6/7/21

Eastern Counties Dennis/ECW Integral Buses

In 1938 and 1939, Eastern Counties took delivery of 18 Dennis Aces with ECW B20F bodies and Gardner 4LK engines. Two more unfrozen examples arrived in 1941. In 1947, at a time of acute vehicle shortages, a prototype Beadle chassisless bus appeared in the Eastern Counties fleet. It was one of four Beadle prototypes being evaluated by the Tilling group using mechanical components from older, withdrawn vehicles. Fleet no. D999, FNG 818, had a full fronted 33 seat rear entrance body fitted with running units and Gardner 4LK engine taken from United Counties Dennis Ace No.504, VV 7278. It was finally withdrawn in 1959. A batch of 16 similar vehicles, but with Bedford units and petrol engines, followed in 1949. The petrol engines were later replaced by 4LK diesels. Encouraged by the success of these lightweights, ECOC salvaged components and the 4LK engines from the withdrawn Dennis Aces. These units were then incorporated into 16 new half cab B32R chassisless machines by Eastern Coach Works, and registered HPW 817-832, fleet numbers CD 832-847. They were delivered in 1950. This vehicle type, bearing the legend ‘ECW’ as the manufacturer on its distinctive radiator, was unique to Eastern Counties. These little buses mostly spent their eleven year lives running very reliably on the flatter fenland territory in the western part of the ECOC area, and, on withdrawal in 1961, they then donated their 4LK engines to the Bristol SC4LK overhaul stock.

Roger Cox
05/14

HPW 832, fleet no.CD 847, was the last of the class. It is shown leaving Cambridge Drummer Street Bus Station destined for Newmarket in August 1959. Rather remarkably, the blind is correctly set. The narrow track of the front and rear axles may be clearly seen.

Seen parked in Kings Lynn in August 1960 bearing the informative destination ‘Relief’, HPW 824, fleet no.CD 839 stands in front of HPW 827, CD842, which commendably displays ‘Kings Lynn’. On the left, one of the many SC4LKs in the ECOC fleet shows the depressingly familiar ‘Service’ in the route indicator box.


02/05/14 – 17:57

I have vague memories of these from my infrequent visits to the area with my father in the late 1950s. I recall it took me some time to find out what they were.
The radiators let down what would have been an otherwise good looking bus, were these modified from then original Dennis design? Also what is the round object to add the top of the dash panel?
Thanks Roger for dragging out something from deep in the recesses of the memory.

Phil Blinkhorn


03/05/14 – 17:30

Phil, I’m pretty sure that Dennis never made a radiator shell of anything like that shape. I’ve got nothing against the appearance of it: I find it honest and businesslike. What I think spoils the appearance is the narrow front track. Were the bodies 8′ wide?

Ian T


04/05/14 – 07:36

I know what you mean about those radiators. They always remind me of one of those cheap, plastic toy buses – probably with a friction-drive push along motor – that when you were a child your cheapskate auntie would buy you for Christmas from a market stall, as opposed to the quality Dinky or Corgi ones from your parents ! They were otherwise quite neat little buses, and a sort of precursor to the Bristol SC, maybe. A shame one did not survive.

John Stringer


04/05/14 – 07:37

Ian, these buses were definitely only 7ft 6ins wide. The narrow track of both the front and rear axles was inherited from the Ace design. The effect at the front of the Ace was less obvious because the body/bonnet layout tapered towards the radiator, and the front wings were set inboard of the main body width; see this link
On the ECW chassisless machines the parallel sided, forward control character of the bodywork accentuated the narrowness of the track. The radiator design certainly owed nothing to Dennis. In response to Phil’s query, I, too, have been baffled by the purpose of the circular object on the outside of the dash panel. This component appears to be situated directly in line with the steering column inside the cab, and I wonder if it has some structural support function, bearing in mind that these buses were of lightweight chassisless construction. www.sct61.org.uk/

Roger Cox


05/05/14 – 07:37

Could that bump on the front be a ventilator? Clearly, though, the windscreen opens. If the bus were going backwards, it would be an extractor!

Joe


06/05/14 – 07:46

I remember being told by a former Coachworks employee that these cute little buses were built as an experiment in integral construction techniques prior to the LS production a few years later and to produce higher capacity more modern vehicles than the original Aces. I’ve always thought the disc on the dash panel was a ventilator; I seem to remember ECW using similar ventilators on other vehicles. I only once came across one of them on a quiet Sunday morning parked up on Angel Hill, Bury St Edmunds when there was no other sign of life in the town that day!

Ray Stringer

W Pyne & Son Starbeck

My Name is Keith Todd, aged 82, and having been told about this website by my son, Ian, I feel I can contribute some interesting stories about Pyne’s. My father, Stan Todd, started working for Pyne’s in approximately 1947. George Pyne was the boss working from the original office doing the administration in what was known as the little garage at the bottom of Camwal Road. Opposite the garage was a small plot of land containing some petrol pumps and was looked after by an old gentleman whose name I cannot recall but he had an artificial leg. Further up Camwal Road was a new garage built to accommodate their fleet of coaches. Between these two stood a long line of terraced houses, one of which belonged to an Irish man. My fond memory of him is on a Sunday morning he would set off smartly dressed to church followed by his wife and numerous children. These houses have long since been demolished and the land sold as light industrial units (one of which belonged to Jeff Pantry, son of Bob Pantry). Charlie Pyne was in charge of the top garage and was a very clever tradesman, carrying out numerous conversions including altering the rear end of a lovely Leyland Tiger AWT 841 which was soon allocated to Dad. These two Tigers were fitted with petrol engines and had an Autovac unit on the bulkhead alongside the engine. The other later Tiger BWX 817 was driven by Dennis Winter. A young apprentice Jackie Ibbotson started work straight from school and was still working for Pyne’s until his retirement. During the winter season lots of work was carried out overhauling the coaches and Dad, like most of the drivers, used to come home with sore hands caused by rubbing down the newly sprayed coaches with Brasso. All the drivers were keen to get allocated doing the winter service every alternate day to Blackpool shared with West Yorkshire. The fare remained unaltered at 13 shillings 3 pence return for many years. The small Bedford coaches were normally used on this excursion as it was more economical to operate as passenger demand in winter was fairly quiet. The route in winter was via Otley, Skipton, differing from the summer route over Blubberhouses. I often had the chance to travel with Dad and I loved to hear the tone of the Bedford engines, especially working hard up gradients.
In the winter of 1947 George and Charlie Pyne took all the drivers and their wives down to the Earls Court Commercial Motor Show with the intention of placing an order for new coaches. It is my understanding that the best choice of chassis available was Daimlers and an order was placed for, I think, six diesel engine Daimlers to be fitted with 32 seater Plaxton bodies. These Daimlers had the pre-selector fluid flywheel type of gearbox.
Soon after, possibly ready for the summer season, these new coaches arrived and Dad was allocated HWY807. What lovely coaches they were and I still recall the lovely smell of moquette and these were fitted with Clayton Dewandre heaters on the bulkhead at the front of the saloon. Dad did various long distance tours and as diesel engines were few and far between Dad carried a list of Derv stockists in various towns.
In 1952 Pyne’s took delivery of more Daimler Freelines fitted with the usual pre-selector type gearbox. These had the 10.6 litre engines and a 39 seater coach body built by Burlington Seagull which I think was part of Duple coaches and had opened a depot in Blackpool. These were the latest designs and were the very latest in the Harrogate area. I enclose a photo of a brand new Daimler decorated to celebrate the Queen’s Jubilee.

This was taken alongside Christ Church in 1953. These were by far the latest in luxury coaches and I could hear the powerful roar of the engines when these coaches were travelling up Skipton Road en route to Blackpool. I also enclose a photo of Dad’s coach collecting passengers near the Town Hall in Leeds en route to London. The registration number of his coach was LWR 840 and it had an early single type of trim as compared to the latest Daimler LYG 964 shown above.
Another interesting point was these coaches were fitted with Goodyear safety tyres which were in effect an inner tube built inside the main tube (long before the tubeless were introduced). Dad used to tell the story of him having a blow-out approaching Newark on the A1 long before the bypasses were built. He said he threw himself across the steering wheel and brought the coach to a halt safely which certainly justified the extra cost of this safety tube. Another interesting journey was taking a party of entertainers who had done a show at the Royal Hall, Harrogate and had to be taken down to London. I jumped at the chance of going with him but all the 39 seats were taken so I had to sit on a stool all the way to London. We had a meal before setting off back to Starbeck and having left London Dad pulled in and said I could drive it. What a wonderful experience it was.
Sadly early in the 1950’s Charlie Pyne died suddenly which was a shock to everyone.
I often took Dad down to Starbeck on his Red Panther BYO 327 and had the use of it during the day. When he had finished cleaning his coach I would drive down to collect him and we would go home to New Park. On this particular evening he drove home with me behind and as usual he was smoking his pipe. We had almost reached the Skipton Road junction when I smelt burning and shouted for him to stop. It seemed that the ash from his pipe had burst into flames and had burned a hole through his raincoat and white smock which all Pyne’s drivers had to wear, as well as the peak cap!!
Another sad event was having arrived at the bottom garage Dad was looking at the detail sheet when suddenly a chap ran in and shouted “hurry up Stan, bring a trolley jack”, someone was trapped under a double decker bus. We ran over and smashed the guard rail and pulled out this unfortunate chap. The ambulance arrived and sadly the man was pronounced dead. It would seem that he had walked up and down Starbeck High Street and suddenly decided to commit suicide by throwing himself under the bus. His small ex GPO Morris Minor was parked over the road and was now been used as a painter and decorator van.
Dad managed to get a mention in the local press, as follows: “Coach driver fined for speeding at 45 mph while pointing out a church en route to Scarborough!”
Somehow, possibly while I was serving in the Army, whatever the reason Dad left Pyne’s, possibly the most successful operator in the area and joined Shearings Holidays covering the Bournemouth tour driving a Bedford Val coach. He enjoyed this tour for many years until finally his health failed and he had to retire.
Finally if I may make a point while reading another enthusiasts stories about Pyne’s – I have no recollection of Bob and his son Jeff having a base at Dacre Banks, nor did I know of Pyne’s operating a Daimler Freeline Plaxton bodied coach and I would love to hear how many more new coaches they did purchase over the years. The Daimler Freeline coaches had quite a large attractive white steering wheel.
Sadly over the years Pyne’s fleet began to decline and when the government introduced new regulations allowing other local coach operators to advertise their own tours, Pyne’s lost the only thing of value to them and sadly they were taken over by Wray’s coaches. Once Malcolm Wray came back in to business they became so very successful until they again were acquired by Eddie Brown of Helperby.
Hope all you enthusiasts find the above interesting together with the treasured photo’s.

Keith Todd
06/2014


27/06/14 – 13:34

Keith, your article exemplifies the great value of this site. I had never heard of Pynes and small coach operators are very much on the fringe of my interest but the details you offer the enthusiast which were once just part of your everyday life are full of interst and would be lost if you hadn’t taken the trouble to recount them. In doing so you also offer information of general interest most would either never have known or had forgotten, e.g.the scarcity of DERV suppliers.
History is a mosaic of major events and thousands of persanal memories. Thanks for taking the time to contribute yours

Phil Blinkhorn


27/06/14 – 13:38

Phil you maybe interested in this Payne’s of Harrogate

Peter


28/06/14 – 06:58

Many thanks, Keith, for bringing us closer to this fine coach operator. The accompanying photo of Freeline LYG 964 is, I believe, the first colour photo I have seen of a Pyne Daimler. Many months ago, I opened a posting on this site asking for colour photos of one of the half-cab Daimlers as they had a special place in my childhood memories. The Pyne livery was, for me, one of the most attractive to be seen and your photo brings it back.

Paul Haywood


28/06/14 – 07:00

This is a very interesting article. The photo at the top shows AWT 841, a 1935 Burlingham bodied Leyland TS7, which was in the fleet until 1957, having a new Plaxton body fitted in 1950. Next to it is 1929 Daimler CF6 WX 219 which is also recorded as having a new Plaxton body later. Alongside is 1928 Albion PFB26 VN 3584 which was also rebodied by Burlingham, lasting until 1952. It appears to carry its original body in the photograph. The final two vehicles appear to be Bedford WLBs.The first, I think, is Duple bodied YG828 new in 1932 I cannot make out the registration on the photo, but the last one is possibly VN 3584, new in 1932.
VN3585, which also had the next chassis number to VN3584 was delivered to Seanor and Company of Harrogate. Pyne and Seanor jointly operated the service to Blackpool until West Yorkshire acquired Seanors business. The rout was then shared between WYRCC and Pyne as outlined in the article.
My understanding is that Wrays were originally based at Dacre Bank.
The Plaxton -bodied Freeline was the last one they acquired (in July 1959). It was registered XWX 912. A picture of it can be found here at this link

David Hick


12/08/14 – 15:14

Wrays were subsequently sold to Eddie Brown they were originally based at Dacre Banks in Nidderdale. Another small firm from the same area who often worked as sub contractors to West Yorkshire was Longsters of Pately Bridge.

Chris Hough


17/01/16 – 12:49

My Grandfather was Charlie Pyne, sadly he died before I was born. Mum (Kathleen Pyne) and my Aunt (Mary Pyne, Doug Sharpe’s wife, who took over when Charlie died) used to tell me stories about the buses and taxis there, so some of the names mentioned in the article sound familiar. One of my favourite stories was how Pyne’s coach livery came to be that beautiful purple colour. Apparently Charlie was colour-blind, and thought he’d chosen a lovely sky blue! As a child, I remember our settee in Forest Grange was upholstered with the coach upholstery, and my cousin Kathryn still owns our old piano stool upholstered in the same material……must have been good stuff!

Anne Cooper


18/01/16 – 06:03

Hello Anne – I always admired Pyne’s fleet, livery and immaculate presentation and, believe it or not, I once drive one of their coaches although I never worked for them – no, oh no, I didn’t steal it I promise.
It was sold to Edgard Beecroft of Fewston near Otley and I once did a day’s work for him – the little coach remained in Pyne’s colours throughout its stay with Edgar. It was a Bedford WTB with a top quality body by Plaxtons and they were grand little motors for 25 to 29 passengers. I do so wish I could remember its number, not like me as I’ve always kept extensive records, but it was something very like DWT 150 so was new just but only just before the start of WW2. Happy days eh ??

Chris Youhill


18/01/16 – 15:56

Chris, Pyne’s had DWT 250, a Bedford WTB/Plaxton C26F that was new to them in 1939. It was sold to Beecroft’s in April 1962. (This is according to a PSV Circle Fleet History of Pyne’s)

John Stringer


19/01/16 – 05:59

Thanks ever so much John – I appreciate that information and I can now fill a gap, or correct an error, in my records and happily I wasn’t far out after all – I mean, what’s a hundred among friends??
Shortly after retiring I decided to tot up how many vehicles I’d driven and/or conducted in my career and imagined and hoped it would be over a thousand, but despite a few recounts it was just a little short at 990 ish – I may have another recount soon to achieve the desired result, after all politicians can do it so why can’t I?? In any event that’s a very rewarding number of passengers carried – I would imagine over a million surely.

Chris Youhill


22/01/16 – 06:46

Chris – an admirable number nonetheless and a credit to your record keeping and lifelong passion.
As someone who never had any PSV driving or conducting experience I cannot help but admire your ability to have coped with countless thousands of cash transactions – particularly in pre-decimal days. I’d still be calculating the correct change from a duty the day before. Although it would have been a wonderful experience to have driven so many types of bus, the idiocyncracies of the many varieties of gearbox (crash, syncro, pre-select, automatic etc.) would have me quaking with fear before I climbed into the cab.
My apologies for diverting from the wonderful Pyne memories.

Paul Haywood


22/01/16 – 09:32

Many thanks Paul for those kind remarks and I’m quite sure that you would have coped very competently with fares and change had such an occupation come your way for whatever reason. Also, as you are an avid enthusiast like me, you would have found that the various transmission systems were no problem at all, but that each had its own delightful challenges which were a pleasure to deal with. I always found that virtually any vehicle would fall into line if kindly understood and “spoken to nicely.” Any unwise driver, and I’m afraid there were a good many, who decided to roughly tame a difficult vehicle by mechanical brute force and abuse would ultimately be the loser for sure. At Ledgard’s in particular there were a good number of duties, particularly long split turns, involving short spells on perhaps four or five different routes and each could and did involve vehicles which were worlds apart in specification and behaviour – for me, never anything but an interesting and enjoyable challenge. I clearly remember at the very start of one late turn on a Saturday on the busy (always) Leeds – Guiseley – Ilkley service I left Ilkley for the first trip with one of the Mark V Regent/Roe beauties and immediately heard the sinister “clinking” of a wheel rim loose on the nearside back wheels, meaning of course a flat tyre. A call to Otley depot and cautious progress to White Cross found the fitter there with PD1 JUM 376 and an apology with “I’ll have it back repaired for you when you get back to White Cross.” Well, Bert knew that I was an enthusiast and was hardly surprised when I said “Leave the PD1 on all night if you like” – JUM 376 was an absolute gem which went like a trooper and with the silkiest gearbox imaginable. So we had an enjoyable late turn and with the lack of normal heavy weekday ordinary traffic the slight difference in performance between the Leyland and the spritely Mark V went un-noticed. Later in the evening I had a premonition of doom however – knowing that our razor sharp manager Jack Tapscott would study all documentation on Monday morning I began to fear being summoned to explain why I had opted to manage with 58 seats instead of 65 on such a busy route which was always the province of the Mark Vs where possible – but for once I got away with it, and of course fitter Bert would also have been on the carpet similarly.
Well I must aplogise for wandering well away from Pynes of Starbeck but I hope that its been a worthwhile insight for everyone.

Chris Youhill


22/01/16 – 16:04

No need to apologise Chris, your comments and anecdotes are always informative and interesting, and give us all a fascinating insight into the vehicles, operators, and various methods used to keep the show on the road, as it were. We’ll call your slight deviation off route ‘an excursion’, which will then bring us nicely back to dear old Pyne’s and their ‘White Coach Tours’.

Brendan Smith


30/08/16 – 09:03

We used to get a pynes coach up to St Roberts primary St Ainsty road. We waited in the morning on a bit of land by the side of the garages and the corner of the Prince of Wales. I remember one of the drivers was called Pat. They were happy days in the late 60s. I can still smell the garage, and remember the little signs saying ” mind head when leaving your seat”

Rita Mulryan


02/09/16 – 06:34

Rita, I was a pupil ‘next door’ on Ainsty Road, Harrogate at St John Fisher’s School from 1967-1969, and loved the place and it’s wonderful teachers – true and decent people one and all. The Prince of Wales pub where you waited for your coach to school still stands on the corner of Camwal Road and High Street in Starbeck. Sadly the Harrogate Hotel (renamed The Henry Peacock in later years) at the Harrogate side of the level crossing has recently been demolished, but the old signal box is still with us. St John Fisher’s often hired Pyne’s coaches for school outings and I vividly remember two field trips up to Aysgarth organised by our geography teacher Mr (Frank) Cowley. The beautiful scenery of the Yorkshire Dales viewed from a very comfortable seat, accompanied by the sound effects of a sweet little white and purple Bedford VAS/Plaxton coach – complete with the giveaway ‘Bedford whistle’ each time the brake pedal was released – was just heaven. All this, plus a cup of tea and sandwiches on arrival in Aysgarth. The perfect schoolday?

Brendan Smith


20/11/16 – 06:31

I was at school in Goldsborough from 1951 to 1957. Pyne’s coaches took all the boys to Harrogate swimming baths twice a week in the summer using two coaches, usually a petrol Bedford OB and a diesel Daimler half-cab. The big chromed Clayton Dewandre heater was an impressive-looking piece of kit on the front bulkhead. Very occasionally a Daimler Freeline was used and they were noticeably more comfortable than the older vehicles, even to a 10-year old. All the vehicles were always impeccably turned out, and the unusual liveries worked very well, particularly on the Freelines.
The Bedfords were faster than the Daimler half-cabs, and the boys preferred to travel in the speedy Bedford. The boys in the Bedford would always egg the driver on to overtake the Daimler up the long hill to Goldsborough village and the overtaking was always accompanied by loud cheering although why we should be anxious to return to school is a mystery to me.

Tony Cormack

Guy Wulfrunian Demonstrator

The origins of the Wulfrunian design appear to date from 1957 and the prototype, OHL 863, took to the road in 1959. It was quickly followed by two demonstrators, 7800 DA in 1959 and 8072 DA in 1960, both of which were painted in a vivid livery of yellow with black trim, the colours of Wolverhampton Wanderers. These demonstrators were tried out by several operators, giving some of them a fright or two in the process, but ultimately they failed to entice significant orders from anyone other than West Riding, who had been the motivating force behind the design from the start. It is said that the registrations of the demonstrators indicated the seating capacities of the Roe bodies, 7800 DA having 78 seats and 8072 DA 72 seats. It has also been suggested that the registration 8072 was intended as a nudge to Wolverhampton Corporation to buy it, the next vacant vehicle number in the Wolverhampton fleet being 72. In the event, if true, that ploy didn’t work. Wolverhampton did buy two Wulfrunians with East Lancs bodies, the second being one of the modified variety with centrally mounted engine and forward entrance, but then swiftly turned to purchasing the much more dependable Arab in its Mark V configuration. In this picture 8072 DA is seen in the demonstration park at the 1960 Earls Court Commercial Motor Show. Already, perhaps, the Guy company was becoming rather dispirited by the indifferent reaction of the bus industry to its complex brainchild. The nearside front corner pillar plainly shows some accident damage, presenting a less than confident face to prospective customers. In its last three years of independence, the Guy company had been losing money to the tune of £300,000 a year (about £2.5m today), largely because of a foolhardy decision to replace the commercially independent agencies in South Africa with its directly owned ventures. As early as 1959, two years after the retirement of its founder, Sidney Guy, the company’s board was warned that the firm would collapse if the South African fiasco was not terminated urgently. The advice was not heeded, and high warranty claims against production Wulfrunians then compounded the unfolding disaster. Guy fell into the hands of William Lyons in October 1961, and subsequently into the rapacious grasp of Donald Stokes of British Leyland. Despite then being, together with Land Rover, the only constituent of the Leyland group still making profits, the Wolverhampton factory was closed in 1982. To Stokes, Leyland meant Lancashire, and all other parts of the heavy commercial business would be sacrificed to serve the cause of the ‘home’ company’s survival. We all know how successful that policy proved to be. As for 8072 DA, pictures of this bus under evaluation with Southdown and Glasgow may be seen here:-
https://www.flickr.com/photos/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/ricardo4eyes/
http://www.ournewhaven.org.uk/
The last comment on the Newhaven page is of interest, as it gives a driver’s opinion of the Wulfrunian that is quite positive, though the cramped cab came in for adverse comment. I personally would have had some qualms about driving the Wulfrunian on the taxing Southdown Eastbourne – Brighton route. The PD3 could be found decidedly wanting in the brakes department, but the Wulfrunian had a propensity for boiling its brake fluid under heavy use, resulting in braking action being lost almost entirely. If Guy had adopted a full air braking system instead of air/hydraulic, this problem would have never arisen. Ultimately, demonstrators 7800 DA and 8072 DA were bought by West Riding, but not for operation. Both were ignominiously broken up for spares.

Roger Cox
07/2014


05/07/14 – 17:40

Wolverhampton Wanderers colours are gold and black (not yellow and black). Before the 1960s the gold was a dark gold referred to as “Old Gold”

David Rawsthorn


06/07/14 – 17:13

I recall eagerly waiting one Saturday afternoon to see 7800 DA pass nearby my home in Rochdale when it was on hire to none other than Ribble Motor Services. It was on a Preston garage working of the Blackpool-Preston-Blackburn-Rochdale service 158. My school friend said he had seen this ‘funny bus on the Ribble service’ that morning and I worked out when it would return. It was a six hour round trip but return it did and I managed to see it.

David Slater


08/07/14 – 08:00

I saw this bus working for Ribble out of Skelhorn Street Bus Station in Liverpool on one of the L numbered routes to Crosby. It must have been around the same time. It got around quite a lot on demonstration work at that time. I feel the concept of a front mounted engine combined with a front entrance was really what operators wanted at this time as there was a lot of uncertainty about the rear engine concept of the Atlantean. In that respect Guy got it right but what a pity they over-complicated the job with air suspension and disc brakes etc and didn’t get the weight distribution right. The rest as they say is history.

Philip Halstead


08/07/14 – 11:08

As I said in the Southend PD3 link, balancing reliability (for the engineers) with driveability – and possibly innovation for the marketing bods. Well nigh impossible. The sad thing is not that the Wulfrunian failed despite being “what the operators wanted” but that it sullied the name of Guy (in the same way the wet liners did for AEC). Guy Arabs were among the most reliable vehicles ever built and were held in high regard by drivers, engineers and operators – let alone enthusiasts.

David Oldfield


14/07/14 – 07:54

In the Robert Grieves archive there are a couple of black & white photos of 7800 DA, apparently on loan to Glasgow Corporation but in an allover dark livery. Unfortunately the site is subscription only, but you can see thumbnails here:
www.scran.ac.uk/000-000-703-252-C
www.scran.ac.uk/000-000-703-339-C
Does anyone know anything about this livery?

Peter Williamson


14/07/14 – 09:56

David, you are quite right in your phrase “Nigh on impossible.” I suppose loosely riding on the failure of the “Wulfy” that the Ailsa Volvo got it right. Having extensively driven them – well the famous Tyne and wear trio GCN 1/2/3 anyway – I found that as an enthusiast and a driver they were splendid vehicles. As well as being incredibly sprightly, other than pulling away on hills when heavily laden, their roadholding was superb, passenger flow for 79 plus standing commendable, and somewhat noisy but civilised sound effects wonderful. Just putting on my armour now against the expected volley from the Capital when I say that for some reason the Ailsa transmission gave a pretty good impression of the glorious old RTs too.
I still, personally, feel that the limited sales of the Ailsa might well have been down to Engineers’ views being blighted by the somwhat similar layout to that of the Wulfrunian. Cardiff, however, “bit the bullet” and seemed to do well on it for a quarter of a century.

Chris Youhill


15/07/14 – 06:41

The Ailsa’s resemblance to the Wulfrunian may have put some operators off it, but I think the main problem was the engine. The British bus operating industry at that time did not trust turbochargers. Adding a turbocharger to an engine which was already considered fairly adequate in naturally aspirated form – as Manchester did with half its Panther Cubs – was a reasonable thing to try, because if it caused problems you could always disconnect it. (It did, and they did.) But powering a double decker with a 6.7 litre engine which was totally dependent on turbocharging went against everything that most British engineers believed in. Of course such things are standard practice now, thanks to European emission regulations, which just shows how far ahead of its time the Ailsa was.

Peter Williamson


17/07/14 – 04:57

Most interesting information Peter W. As I’m not too technically minded I wasn’t aware of the “turbo trouble” aspect. However the small engine in the double decker seemed to survive quite well as far as I’ve heard, although I believe there were originally prophesies of such units “blowing themselves apart” through being thrashed with the heavy work. My lasting over all impression of the three I drove quite a lot, and of travelling in many more (Black Prince in particular), was of a gutsy, smooth, well behaved vehicle with a very likable “personality” especially to an enthusiast. I believe also that the perimeter chassis frame was very strong and durable. So, whatever the pros and cons, another well considered brave attempt has passed into nostalgia eh ??


17/07/14 – 04:59

The Ailsa was one of my favourite buses Chris Youhill likens their sound effcts to the RT but to me the whine they made in Leeds city centre when running for Black Prince and Taylrs always sounded like a London tube train Whatever you think of the sound it was unique The best looking ones were the dual entrance examples with Van Holl -McArdle bodies run by South Yorks PTE

Chris Hough


19/07/14 – 07:55

Re Wulfrunian Demonstrator with Glasgow Corporation Transport, I have seen other views of 7800 DA in service, and as far as I am aware, it was in a yellow livery, used mainly on the then service 4 (Balornock-Drumoyne). The photographer I am referring to, said it was difficult to snap as it was winter and dark days made good bus photography frustrating!!
Thanks for an interesting subject

Stuart Little


14/02/15 – 09:28

I think that the reason that the pictures from the Robert Grieves collection of 7800 DA appear to show it in a dark livery is that the original film was of a type insensitive to yellow. This was uncommon on roll film by the early 1960s but was still common on plate cameras.

Stephen Allcroft


15/02/15 – 05:26

I can perhaps add a bit of personal experience concerning the Ailsa double decker. I was responsible for the pre production prototype purchased by West Yorkshire PTE in 1975. We ran it almost exclusively on the service from Halifax to Huddersfield which involved a substantial climb from Elland up to Ainley Top and a similar descent on the return journey. It acquitted itself well, the crews liked it and it turned in a reasonable fuel consumption. At the same time Huddersfield Depot had the pre production (there wasn’t any production) Foden NC double decker which they ran on the same service. It was hopelessly unreliable, gearbox and rear axle problems in the main as I remember. With the Ailsa being a one off, it was sold on to Derby Corporation about 1980. It was a much better vehicle than the contemporary Metropolitan double deckers in Bradford. (Sorry, this is all post 1970 but shows that a front engined/front entrance double decker was satisfactory without all the complications of the Wulfrunian)

Ian Wild


14/10/15 – 16:33

I found this photo of 7800 DA taken at Crosby in approx November 1961 among my slides.

Geoff Pullin


15/10/15 – 07:17

Until I saw Geoff’s photo of 7800 DA with Ribble I never realised that the comparatively small number of Wulfrunians had such a variety of ventilator styles. Some were vertical, some were horizontal, some had vertical slats, some had horizontal slats, and Lancashire United even had one with what seemed like mesh. http://www.sct61.org.uk/lu58
8072 DA seems to have sported both vertical and horizontal versions in its short time.
http://www.jsh1949.co.uk/West%20Riding/GUY%20County%20Motors%20d1.jpg
http://www.jsh1949.co.uk/West%20Riding/GUY8271.jpg
This Ribble photo shows the strange and ugly open vent system which, thank goodness, never made it to the production run.

Paul Haywood