Category: Photos

Yorkshire Woollen District – Leyland Titan – HD 8553 – 699

Yorkshire Woollen District - Leyland Titan PD2 - HD 8553 - 699

Yorkshire Woollen District Transport
1963
Leyland Titan PD2
Roe H63R

Now this gets interesting according to my book this is a 1950 Leyland Titan PD2/3 with a Roe H56R body. Well it is defiantly not a rear entrance that’s plain to see and the registration of just two letters I think came well before 1950. I think its time to get Googleing
Here is a result found on the SCT ’61 website the link takes you to a better photo of the same bus, the info found does make sense to me it is as follows.
“Yorkshire Woollen rebuilt a number of Leyland Tiger PS single deckers as double deck vehicles in the 1950s and 1960s. One such is HD8553, a PS2/5 given a Roe front entrance body in 1962 and numbered 699 – later renumbered 502 by YWD.
This bus and its brethren survived long enough to receive NBC livery.”

I think your history is wrong.
A large number of PS1s were rebodied. I saw one of the first which was painted “Poppy Red” in Frost Hill depot parked in the middle of the depot It looked terrible then. The new bodies were MCW Orion.
They weighed less after re-bodying than when original.
They were very noisy and cold as the new bodies were single skinned.
The photograph is one of a small batch of PS2s which were rebuilt much later. the chassis were rebuilt by YWD with new chassis sides, they originally had a bolt on chassis extension as the rules changed when they were originally built. I think there were only 8 rebuilt. A like number were sold to Yorkshire Traction for rebuilding the only difference was that the Yorkshire Traction rebuilds were reregistered. I never found out why.

E. Malone

I will investigate this further find my own information and get back, check with the ‘Latest Comments’ page for any update.
Here are the details of a batch of six Leyland Tiger PS2/5 chassis that were re-bodied by Roe to H35/28F in 1963 Reg no HD 8551-4 and HD 8562-3 they went into service with fleet nos 697-700 and 708-9 respectively.
The above photograph is one of this batch and this information backs up the original article.
An extra piece of information I found is that the original Tigers were probable bodied by Willowbrook with a B38F body and were first built in 1950.
The PS1 chassis you mention were a batch of 24 originally built in 1948 the registrations are a bit haphazard but are late HD 7800s and very early 7900s the fleet nos are a bit the same but they all fall between 562-631. These were re-bodied by Metro-Cammell with H56R ‘Orion’ bodies in 1954-5.

Peter

Richard Malone is wrong about the colour. Poppy red only came in with NBC.  The closest to the original colour was Post Office red. I know this from a YWD Fleetline I owned at one time.
There were 75 Brush bodied Leyland Tigers PS1s, fleet numbers 558-632 registration HD7841-7915. In 1954 12 of these were rebodied as double deckers with fleet numbers (562/75/7/97/8/9/603/11/3/4/6/20) with a weight of 6.8.1 tons. A further 12 were rebodied in 1955 as fleet numbers (570/4/83/7/8/96/618/24/7/8/30/1) with a weight of 6.7.0 tons. It is interesting to note that they weighed 6.9.1 tons as Tiger single deckers.
I own the only survivor of the original batch of Brush bodied Tiger PS1s fleet no 622 registration HD 7905 which can be seen here.
The Willowbrook/PS2s, 697-725, HD8551-79 (and OPD2s, 728-733, HD8710-5) were built in 1949. They were originally 27’6″ long with B32F bodies these were then lengthened to 30′ B38F by Willowbrook between June 1954 and June 1955. Six were rebodied by Roe as H63F (697-700/8/9) for YWD a further nine went to YTC (701/4/6/7/10/1/2/4/6) in 1962, rebodied by Northern Counties as front entrance double deckers. (One of these still exists.)

Gordon Brooke

The subject of re registrations of bus rebuilds is an interesting one. I was always curious about the batch of Leyland PS2s that were rebodied as double deckers by both Yorkshire Traction and Yorkshire Woollen. The Y W D ones kept their old 2 letter HD marks yet the YTC ones were allocated new YHE marks of the time. Another example of these double standards concerns County Motors of Lepton owned by YTC, YWD and West Riding. In 1955 they had two elderly single deckers rebodied as double deckers. They wanted to give them new registrations but Huddersfield CBC would not allow this so they were transferred to Barnsley where they were given new marks of the time.

Philip Carlton

Difficult to tell from the photo if the width of this vehicle, was a PS2/5 7ft 6in or 8ft wide? The original batch of re-bodies, from PS1 chassis were certainly 7ft 6in Orions. When Birch Bros had some PD1’s re-bodied with Orions by MCW a year or so later, they were virtually identical even down to the destination display. Maybe the same drawings were used!

Chris Barker

01/01/14 – 09:14

I drove these buses in 1965 at this time I lived in Heckmondwyke and worked at Becklane Depot I remember the P duties they worked Mirfield Bradford 65 service they seemed to be sluggish pullers..

Jack

03/01/14 – 10:00

I would like to comment on the “Hales Cake” vehicle shown in Colin Shears yard. It is a Leyland TS7 and was East Midland Motor Services No10 BAL 610. In the 1950s I worked at EMMS Chesterfield workshops at this time after I left school and remember this vehicle well it was one of eighteen rebodied by Willowbrook in 1948 it looked far better in EMMS livery of biscuit cream and brown picture shown in Mikes afterlifes.

Jack

26/10/16 – 06:41

I remember the forward entrance versions of these rebodies on B and C services from Ossett to Fir Cottage in YWD red and cream and then NBC poppy red not bad for a bus built as a single decker in the late 1940s and still in service in the 1970s we cannot say that today, by the way I liked them as much as AEC Regent Vs.

David Parkin

27/10/16 – 08:17

To answer Chris Barker’s question from way back, the PS2/5 was 8 feet wide.

Peter Williamson

28/10/16 – 07:37

Peter W, thanks for your answer, I’m certain that these vehicles reverted to their original length of 27ft 6ins. upon rebuilding as double deckers, the seating capacity of 63 seems to support this. However, when they ran as single deckers, presumably they had drop frame extensions to enable the provision of luggage boots and then they were extended to 30ft length, still with drop frame rears, so was the chassis itself extended? When they became double deckers, a drop frame extension would have been of no use on a front entrance d/d but if it was simply removed, the rear overhang would have needed supporting somehow, I imagine new chassis frames were the only answer. Perhaps it might have been easier to rebody them as 30ft double deckers!

Chris Barker

31/03/17 – 15:37

The registration of just two letters I think came well before 1950.
Dewsbury didn’t reach HD 9999 until November 1953 – while it took until April 1960 for Bootle to reach EM 9999 and August 1960 for Rutland to reach FP 9999.
And nine Scottish counties didn’t reach 9999 with two letters before the year suffix system was introduced in 1964/5 – Buteshire famously only getting as far as SJ 2860.

Des Elmes

06/09/17 – 06:44

Chris Barker, I think you will find that NONE of the PS1 or 2’s owned by YWD had luggage boots. The emergency door was in the middle at the back on both those models.

Ron Lake

Blackpool Corporation – Leyland Titan PD2/27 – PFR 334 – 334


Photograph by ‘unknown’ if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Blackpool Corporation
1959
Leyland Titan PD2/27
Metro Cammell Weymann FH35/28R

Blackpool were really into the full frontal look I think it was to make them look like the trams that Blackpool is famous for. Before these normal looking full frontal Titans they had other versions which they classed as ‘streamlined’. The bodies were built by Burlingham a local body builder, I think they were bought out by the better known company called Duple.
There is a photo of a ‘streamlined’ Blackpool Leyland Titan here.

A full list of Titan codes can be seen here.

This photo is clearly of 334 (PFR 334), not 344. Good pic, though. 334 was one of a batch of 30 numbered 331-350. The 1960 abc British Bus Fleets No.6 (Lancashire), shows the seating as 61, reduced to 59 in the summer (for increased luggage space?). Burlingham were based in Blackpool and after the Duple takeover, the factory was known as Duple (Northern).

A Woods

Thanks for that, new glasses required I think, I have altered the heading so it is now correct.

Does your 1960 abc book have the above vehicle as a PD2/27 as my 1965 version because the website ‘Bus Lists on the Web’ has it has a PD2/40?

The 1965 abc British Bus Fleets No.6 lists a batch of 50 as the following:-
301 – 310 PD2/21
311 – 350 PD2/27

The ‘Bus Lists on the Web’ site has the same batch of 50 as the following:-
301 – 310 PD2/21
311 – 330 PD2/27
331 – 350 PD2/40

Can anyone solve this anomaly.

Peter

There is certainly plenty of odd information about these buses. I quote from two sources:
In “Blackpool’s Buses”, by David Dougill, the fleet list shows 301-305 as PD2/21 with Burlingham bodies, while 306-310 had MCW bodies. 311-350 were PD2/27 with MCW bodies. “Trams and Buses Around Blackpool” by the well-know duo Steve Palmer and Brian Turner gives the same detail. The only difference between 311-330 and 331-350 is that the earlier numbers were delivered in 1958 and the later ones arrived in 1959.

Pete Davies

The PD2/40 was an exposed radiator variant of the breed I would suggest that Blackpool had no exposed radiator buses delivered post war. Early ones had full font bodies to a Blackpool design by Burlingham while later examples both fully fronted and half cab had variations on the Leyland Titan tin front Some of Blackpools PD3s had an asymmetrical full front due to the revised “St Helens front” of concealed radiator PD3s

Chris Hough

Chris, I’m no Blackpool expert but do I recall in the murky recesses of the mind that sometimes “exposed” radiators with smaller blocks were provided for certain full-front applications? Does that clarify – or muddy – the waters?

David Oldfield

This bus survived longer than most of its classmates as, along with 337, it was converted for use a Permanent Way staff bus in which guise they were numbered 434/7 (346 also worked for the Electrical Services department).
From my time at Blackpool I have a 1978 fleet list which shows these as PD2/27s which entered service on 25th and 26th March 1959 respectively.

David Beilby

Blackpool 334 was a PD2/27 as David Beilby confirms. To answer David Oldfield, Leyland supplied the ‘exposed radiator’ version of the Titan for full front designs where the front grille was part of the body design rather than being one of Leyland’s standard fronts. Examples are Ribble’s PD3’s with Burlingham and MCW bodies and the Southdown ‘Queen Mary’ Northern Counties bodied PD3’s. They were PD3/4 and PD3/5’s. As Blackpool used both the standard Leyland BMMO and St Helens style bonnets in their full fronts these Titans were the concealed front chassis types, PD2/21,PD2/27,PD3/1 and finally PD3A/1. The latter had the asymmetrical front windows with the nearside windscreen ‘drooping’ down to follow the shape of the St Helens style bonnet. This arrangement was also used on PD3A/2’s operated by Bolton Corporation with both East Lancs and MCW forward entrance bodies.

Philip Halstead

02/02/11 – 10:00

I was the last driver of PFR 339, one of the buses mentioned in the above article. It was being used as a play bus for the Wisbech area and survived in a working state until 1982. It used to move from one school to another in this area to provide a base for play schools in village where none existed. Gradually these village were able to form their own playgroups in accommodation of their own so PFR 339 worked at achieving it’s own demise. Eventually in 1982 it stayed in one school for a few years as a permanent base, but was eventually replaced by a more suitable form of accommodation. Clement Freud and his wife Jill were instrumental in setting it up in the first place.

Peter Thatcher

04/11/18 – 07:21

When I were a nipper as the saying goes me, my sister took a day trip to Blackpool. We went by Ribble X61, a DP Leyland Leopard out and a White Lady Atlantean (RRN reg) back to Liverpool.
We had a ride on a Balloon tram (two 1s, two 6d). We kept the ticket for years,it was a TIM issue. From the tram ticket we got the date 8th August, 1968.
Note the date. I spotted a BRAND NEW gleaming Leyland Titan PD3A, which could only have been LFR 538/9/40G when a week old. Sadly they were Blackpool’s last such buses but they gave good service unlike many mid-late 1960s back loader of which only the Routemaster had a long life
In my opinion the St Helens bonnet didn’t suit a full front, which Blackpool Corporation recognised by specifying half cabs for 381-399 and 500-540. The 1950s Leyland Titans would have looked better with a Ribble style grille, but I guess BCT wanted to be different! .

Paul Mason

Morecambe & Heysham – Leyland Titan PD2/37 – 33 MTD – 87


Photo by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Morecambe & Heysham Corporation
1960
Leyland Titan PD2/37
Massey H37/27F

Here is a difference in livery for Morecambe & Heysham Corporation the old as depicted on fleet number 63 in the background and the new on the Leyland Titan PD2 fleet number 87 in the foreground even in black & white the new livery looks more attractive. The colours by the way were a darkish green and cream. Morecambe & Heysham had a tendency to get there money’s worth out of there buses and kept them a little bit past what other operators would regard as there sell by date, luckily for us bus enthusiasts (more photos to follow).
The PD2/37 coding breaks down as follows:- exposed radiator, synchromesh gearbox, air brakes, 27 foot long by 8 foot wide and built 1955 onwards.
I do like the sliding doors but they never really caught on, why not? If you know, let me know, please leave a comment.

A full list of Titan codes can be seen here.

The only sliding doors I ever experienced (on North Western Dennis Lolines and Lancashire United Guy Arab Vs) were air operated. This meant that they were moved by an accelerating force rather than at a steady speed as they would be by an electric motor. Being quite heavy they were slow to get moving, and then moved faster and faster, eventually shutting with a massive thump. I would not like to have been in their way.

Peter Williamson

You will be pleased to know that one of the Weymann-bodied batch 73 (MTE 635) survives at Keighley Bus Museum, where its owner Ken Wade is valiantly battling to replace about four tons of rotten steel and wood! Steel + wood + salt = bad news!
As far as sliding doors go, I concur with Peter: they were always sluggish in operation, and from the Green line “Q” double-decker to the SHMD short Fleetlines they were always troublesome.
One reason must be sheer physics: one big door has to be made quite rigid and is therefore very heavy, so it needs a lot of power to get it moving (unless it’s manually operated when it’s murder for the conductor!) Secondly, the single door leaf has to travel further to close the opening -about four feet as opposed to the one-foot movement required of a jack-knife door leaf, so it just takes longer to shut.
On a one-man bus they were worse still, because there was often an interlock to prevent the gears engaging until the door had closed, so they increased dwell times at stops and hindered time-keeping too. For the record, the twin-sliders on SHMD centre-entrance buses are electric, and they’re fairly quick, but still slower than the jacknife type.

David Jones

Sliding doors were common in this area; I’m 99% certain that Ribble’s full-fronted PD3s had them and also Lancaster City Transport’s PD2s, (201-206).

Dave Tower

When Southend Corporation purchased some ex Ribble deckers with sliding doors they were nicknamed Bacon Slicers. I recall that they tended to be slow to close and then speeded up and closed with a bang. I recall that Yorkshire Traction had a batch of PD3s with sliding entrance doors.

Philip Carlton

It must’ve been a regional thing because as a kid in the 1960s sliding doors were quite common where I lived.

See these two links which show the kind of bus which I regularly saw

//www.flickr.com/

//www.flickr.com/

KC

Arriva Yorkshire’s newish reputedly hi-spec Volvo/Optare Double Deckers rattle constantly: although you could sometimes put it down to driving style, the noise seems to come from the folding front doors. So is it back to sliders?

Joe

All Yorkshire Traction’s Northern Counties and Roe bodied PD3’s had sliding doors and the description of that accelerating door followed by a solid thump was just as bad east of the Pennines as it was in Lancashire, very hard to set up perfectly.
The only exception on PD3’s they had were the two ex County Motors vehicles, these had traditional (as opposed to Park Royal style) bodies with jack knife doors.
The advantage of the sliding door though was that it maximised the width of the door aperture meaning that you could easily achieve a double flow of leaving or entering passengers to both saloons simultaneously whereas the jack knife type tend to narrow the doorway a bit.

Andrew

Morecambe and Heysham Corporation was the catalyst which got me hooked on buses when I was about 3 years old. in the 1945/8 period.
I recognised the similarity of Weymann body to those of my home town Bradford fleet, and the dis-similarity of the Park Royals. This was in the pre Mk III days, and one had a real job to recognise fleet numbers as they were all over the place on the pre-war stock, filling voids for withdrawn buses.
Anybody got a fleet list of the pre-war Regents and the single Regal?
What a super green livery too…I cannot believe I am talking about 60 odd years ago!

John Whitaker

John, I have a M & H fleet list of every bus the undertaking owned. If you are still interested contact me through the website.

Dave Towers

12/01/12 – 06:35

Here I am again on about Southdown but they did have a batch of PD2/12’s No’s 799-812 with East Lancs bodies plus one earlier Guy Arab with Park Royal body No 547 (thankfully now preserved) fitted with sliding doors on rear entrance bodies. These were different in as much as they were in two parts which with some, to me unknown, mechanical trickery slotted in between the rear wheel arch and the normal width platform. They were still very slow in operation and being electrically driven struggled manfully when facing up a steep hill, the driver was well advised to press the open button a little in advance if possible. I have only recently discovered your wonderful site and I am have fun exploring it, so I hope you will excuse my ramblings.

Diesel Dave

12/01/12 – 10:43

Ramble on as much as you like, along with the rest of us!
I don’t know where they were based, but seem to recall seeing one or two on route 31 around Portsmouth. However, Southdown had similar bus bodies made by Park Royal, Beadle and Northern Counties et al, and you had to look closely to tell the difference. Can’t recall whether they all had doors, though. I was distracted with girlfriends around this period!

Chris Hebbron

13/01/12 – 07:35

Welcome to the club, Dave, and, as Chris says, ramble on – from another David with diesel in his blood.

David Oldfield

14/01/12 – 07:34

From my childhood holiday memories, Blackpool had some centre entrance Burlingham bodied Leylands that I think were unique to them, they were fitted with two opposed sliding doors that closed like a guillotine. I never got to ride on them very much, but I will always remember one conductor calling out ‘mind the doors they’ve just been sharpened’. I know one of these vehicles is awaiting restoration with LTT preservation trust, but I don’t know if any more of them survive

Ronnie Hoye

14/01/12 – 07:36

Well Chris and Dave – not sure which was the greater distraction, but the Southdown PD2’s were great machines, even if I only sampled them as a teenage passenger! There were 112 of them (on PD2/12 chassis), the first 54 with Leyland bodies. The initial 24 were without doors on delivery in 1951, but soon had them fitted, and all the rest were delivered with doors. Then came 10 with Northern Counties bodies, and the rest were bodied by Beadle, Park Royal and East Lancs. As Dave says, some had sliding doors, although most had 4-piece folders. Until the PD3 Queen Marys came along from 1958 onwards, these were Southdown’s front line machines not only on the 31 to Brighton, but the London Road services out of Portsmouth to Waterlooville and Petersfield too. Before the Queen Mary’s took over everything in sight (as it seemed by 1965 onwards), the PD2/12s were nicely intermingled with earlier PD2s (80 of these also Leyland bodied)and PD1s (a mixture of Leyland and Park Royal bodies), and the surviving rebodied pre-war TD4s and TD5s. I loved the sound of a pre-war Leyland TD engine, and was sad to see the last Southdown one go in 1962. But the sound lived on in Portsmouth Corporation’s four open-top TD4s, and in their “Leylandised Crossleys” (as the local drivers called them). These survived until 1967, and the open-toppers until 1971/72, and all 4 still survive in preservation.

Michael Hampton

14/01/12 – 12:21

Barton’s Northern Counties bodied Regent V’s, plus there own rebuilt Leyland deckers all had sliding doors including the UK’s lowest height Dennis Loline which was at the 1960 commercial motor show.

Roger Broughton

14/01/12 – 14:00

Roger is right – all of those rebuilds had single piece sliding doors. The earlier PD1s with Duple front entrance bodies had twin doors, and from memory they were usually fairly gentle in operation. There were conductor or passenger operated “open/close” buttons above the doors (i.e. they were not under the control of the driver.) In warm weather they were often left open – none of this Health and Safety nonsense, and after all the other 70% of deckers had open rear platforms anyway!

Stephen Ford

13/02/13 – 04:30

When in the 1940s I used to stay with my gran who lived in Ingleborough Road we would take the bus to Morecambe. The bus used to detour off the main road and go through Torrisholme where I was always fascinated by a a large Italianate coloured statue in a garden which could be seen from upstairs on the bus. I wondered if it is still there or if anyone else remembers it.

Garth

26/03/13 – 06:41

My mum, Hilda Wilson, used to be a bus conductress on the Morecambe & Heysham buses and she and the other women (except one) could only work on them in the spring and summer. The lady who was allowed had worked on them before the war. There must have been some rule that prevented them. My mum used to have to finish before winter and start again the year after when the weather got warmer.

Lynne

26/03/13 – 11:23

More often than not, Lynne, it was the unions who objected to conductresses continuing after the war. I suppose your mum worked during the Summer Season, when services were augmented for the holidaymakers.

Chris Hebbron

27/03/13 – 06:49

I think that – for all it’s weaknesses (slow to operate, yet forceful when opening/closing [I understand that the repeated slamming when closing caused structural problems in the front near-side bulkhead]) and strength (unrestricted entrance/exit area) – the sliding door just came too late: the advent of the rear-engined/front-entrance double-decker killed it off (sliding door ahead of the front axle?) . . . apart from those strange dual-door Fleetlines supplied to Walsall and SHMD.

Philip Rushworth

27/03/13 – 16:51

I am replying to Lynne’s comments about conductresses on Morecambe’s buses. I was a seasonal conductor (student) in the early 60’s working about 3 months in each of four successive summers (remember those?!) and recall three full-time conductresses : Mrs Fisher, Mrs Camm and Ms Higgins. I have vague memories of your mother also Lynne (Mrs Wilson). Another conductress, Mrs Bell worked every year from Spring through Summer. Her husband was a full time driver and they were often rostered together. Unlike the many students who wore lightweight summer uniforms Mrs Bell was attired in full regular uniform (navy blue). They were years fondly remembered and all of my colleagues were tremendous characters – even the inspectors!

Keith Nicholson

28/03/13 – 06:39

Keith, you may find this a funny question, but have you lived in Market Deeping?

David Call

28/03/13 – 17:58

Well David – how right you are! Yes I did live in Market Deeping and I needed to get the abacus out to calculate when! I was there for about 6 years and left in 1988 or thereabouts. I now live in Peterborough and in my retirement I make ‘guest appearances’ for Stagecoach locally driving on city routes. What’s our connection?

Keith Nicholson

29/03/13 – 06:44

I used to know a lad in Heysham (I lived in Morecambe at the time) who, in the 1970s (and possibly longer, of course), kept in touch with you. It’s a small world, bus enthusiasm – everyone knows everyone else, if only indirectly.

David Call

29/03/13 – 17:07

Thank you David for enlightening me!
It brought back memories of CH and his involvement with M & H TD’s unique No 72 (MTC 540) which was stored in the open at Steamtown, Carnforth in the late 70’s. This bus was new to Morecambe in 1950 and came directly from the Earls Court Commercial Vehicle show in that year. It sported original dark green livery then. The vehicle, an AEC Regent III, was the last of Morecambe’s pre-selectors and was fitted with a larger engine than its sisters. The bus is currently undergoing restoration.
I conducted No. 72 many times on the Carnforth route – a service jointly operated with Ribble. The ‘middle Carnforth’ duty (12.53 – 20.27) was a particular favourite of mine. The conductor’s place on the platform was draughty and cold (even in summer) with winds coming straight off the Bay. The driver’s turn of speed through Hest Bank and Bolton-le-Sands didn’t help either! I was told that this was the reason that AEC Regent V No. 84 (793 ATD) was fitted with rear platform doors under the control of the driver for use on this service in winter. Unfortunately he often forgot to open or close them! No.84 was the only bus in the fleet fitted with rear platform doors.
Returning to the original subject of this posting (Leyland Titan PD2/37 No. 87) I conducted this vehicle and its two sisters many times on the “Circular” route. After the relative ‘seclusion’ of rear-entry vehicles I found that standing at the front under the perpetual gaze of the passengers was somewhat unnerving! However I recall conducting this vehicle one Sunday morning in the 60’s for the ‘nurses special’. This involved gathering up these fine ladies early morning from the Queen Vic Hospital in Thornton Road presumably after working a night shift and taking them home. We did not operate over any recognised bus route but I think we went along the Promenade and Broadway at one point before starting conventional Sunday services.

Keith Nicholson

30/03/13 – 07:27

Keith, thanks for the interesting recollections of the Carnforth route. Now please correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t it linked with Overton at the other end? I believe the route went through Middleton (well I suppose it would have to do!) and then down a fairly lonely stretch of road into Overton, maybe turning round in a pub car park, where the landlady was well known for her collection of eggs. End to end I expect this would have taken at least an hour, perhaps venturing into the bus station rather than directly along the prom.

Dave Towers

30/03/13 – 12:05

Keith was a seasonal conductor with M & H C T D in the early 1960s, and the Carnforth buses didn’t start running through to Overton until the late 1970s, i.e. in consequence of the so-called ‘agency agreement’ whereby the purely local services of Ribble and (by then) Lancaster City Council were considerably recast with the operators having their agreed running costs guaranteed by Lancashire County Council, who, presumably, became the people who were required to ensure that public transport paid its way. Although both the Carnforth and Overton routes had previously been operated jointly (Ribble/Council), after the agency agreement came into effect the combined service was operated solely by Lancaster City Council. Conversely Ribble began to run some services which had been purely Council-operated. The round trip time on Carnforth-Overton was two hours, and yes, it is my recollection that the service diverted via Euston Road, but not actually going into the bus station (which may or may not have existed by that time, I’m not sure now).
By the time of the above changes the terminus at Overton had moved from the pub car park (‘Ship’ hotel, was it?) to a new turning circle at the Middleton end of the village, which I presume still exists.
These so-called ‘agency agreements’ were widespread but within a few years bus deregulation came along, this the County Councils were generally opposed to (they weren’t the only ones, of course) because it effectively undid the work they had done over the previous decade or so coordinating bus services.

David Call

31/03/13 – 17:42

Herewith a reply to Dave and David!
The Overton service in the early 60’s started from and terminated at the Battery. Anyone wanting to travel to Carnforth from Overton would then have had to take three buses! Many of the drivers at the time would have loved to operate such a ‘long’ route. It did come as David points out – but sadly too late for these fine gents. The landlady of the Ship Inn, Overton was “Ma Macluskie” – a larger than life character who wore a very wide ‘brimmed hat and had a loud laugh! As correctly stated it was the conductor’s job to see the driver back when doing an offside reverse into the pub car park. The road from Middleton Corner was indeed narrow and winding and without bus stops (no ‘hail and ride’ in those days). Unusually this fare stage cost 3d to ride (as did the other service from this point to Middleton Tower Holiday Camp [Pontins])- all other single fare stage rides in the Borough were only 2d! In the later 60’s when I had moved away the Overton service evolved into a convoluted circular route by grafting it on to a town circular taking in Regent Road, Westgate, the Branksome estate, Euston Rd Station (ERS), Promenade and Westgate again! I remember with a shudder my first time on this Westgate service which had been omitted from my route learning! I had No 84 bus (AEC Regent 5 with rear-platform doors)on a very busy wet market day and with the doors closed all the windows steamed up and I couldn’t se where we were! I received what busmen call ‘a hammering’ and had no time to alter the rear indicator blind which showed blank for most of time!
Ribble did operate an Overton service but I’m not sure how it got to the Battery – via the Promenade or via ERS. It was relatively infrequent then -rather like their L14 to Bare.

Keith Nicholson

01/04/13 – 07:45

Thanks Keith for your recollections. I don’t imagine that residents of Overton would be too impressed at being deposited at the Battery, on the edge of the town and some distance away from the majority of the shops!
I’ve just dug out an old BBF 16 (Ribble) to have a look at the local services. There was an L11, Lancaster to Overton service run, it is claimed, jointly with Morecambe and Heysham Corporation. In all my years of living in Lancaster I can honestly say I never saw a green M&H bus in Lancaster bus station (even after the University service started around 1966) so the actual operational side must have been, I reckon, all provided by Ribble.
With regard to David’s posting regarding the ending of the Agency Agreement at deregulation, I can remember a time around 1988 when LCT and Ribble were competing vigorously on the Heysham to Lancaster University services. The timetables on these services changed, it seemed, every few weeks, with each operator moving their schedules five minutes in front of the other on a regular basis. I could swear that it wasn’t long before they went all the way round the clock with it! I’m fairly sure that between them they had something like six buses an hour chasing each other around even on Sundays, a terrible waste of resources. As you will know though, eventually some kind of truce was arrived at (I think in 1989) with both operators negotiating an agreed network which showed a lot more common sense, so this sort of agreement must have been permitted under deregulation.

Dave Towers

02/04/13 – 08:12

Thanks Dave. The only time you might have seen a green M & HTD bus in Lancaster in the 60’s was around midnight when a mechanic would take the late shift workers home (those without their own transport!)However even then I suspect it would have been a rare occurrence as the driver of this bus would be very reluctant to go there and would have tried his utmost to deposit any bus employee living in Lancaster as near to Torrisholme as possible!
The Overton service more than likely followed the L6 Ribble route to Heysham (via ERS, West End Rd, Westminster Rd and Battery). No ‘green’ bus operated beyond the Battery from points further out than ERS. I have a fare table dating from 1961 showing a service to Higher Heysham (Harbour Gates) from ERS. However I think this was probably a workman’s service and in my four years there the only time I operated a green bus this way was a football special from Christie Park to Heysham. We did not have a fare table for this entire journey and I remember guesswork being the order of the day for the those riders (the majority) wishing to travel beyond the Battery from Christie Park! Similar situations could arise on a very occasional basis elsewhere and usually a paper sheet showing the fares to charge would be provided by an inspector if one was to hand. On the above occasion I had to ‘go it alone’ however. Happy memories!

Keith Nicholson

02/04/13 – 08:12

Dave T: Such agreements were certainly not permitted under deregulation. The Monopolies and Mergers Commission would have taken a very dim view of any agreement between operators, and Traffic Commissioners had powers to reduce or revoke licences.
It was generally the case where this sort of competition did not result in one operator gaining a significant advantage over the other that both operators found that there were some routes where there was no gain from continuing to operate, and withdrew, leaving the other in possession. This would normally be a common sense business decision, resulting in what looked like a common sense division of the traffic.
Any suggestions that the respective Managing Directors had happened to bump into each other in a pub a few weeks earlier are of course entirely conjectural.

Alan Murray-Rust

27/08/13 – 05:32

Just to add that Morecambe & Heysham No 77 does of course survive as well as 73 and in spite of everything is still road worthy. In fact if it hadn’t been so late I would have taken it a quick spin last night but I was a bit tired!
Does anyone know what’s happened to No 20, JTE 546 since it was advertised for sale?

Bob Armour

30/09/13 – 08:00

The Battery Hotel is now closed and boarded up, My father worked for MHTD for over 30 years and stopped when the brought in 1 manning.
The “Terminus” at the “Battery” was the plot of land opposite the Battery Hotel, the land is now a “Health centre”.
And regarding a previous post regarding the “Border” of Morecambe and Heysham!! There used to be a post office between Stanley and Sefton road on the seaside of Heysham Rd next to a “Chippy” and had a “Zebra crossing” when I was a kid I was told that the “Border” was the “Zebra crossing. The crossing has now moved to the Battery.

I Bradshaw

28/07/14 – 07:44

I only found this web site by chance when trying to establish if the Trans – Pennine run still takes place on the first Sunday of August. Having lived in both Lancaster and Morecambe until January 1962 when the family moved to Peterborough I found the articles on both undertakings of great interest. I happened to visit the area only last Wednesday with my father (now 91)to see how much he remembered.
The Morecambe / Heysham border was of particular interest because my grandparents had a boarding house at 201 Heysham Road, directly opposite Rydal road and thus with a sea view. To give my father chance to look directly at the property I seemed to remember my grandmother saying that hers was the last house in Morecambe and that no. 203 was in Heysham. That would appear to be incorrect given the earlier comment.
I was always interested in transport (subsequently spending an enjoyable 40+ years in the freight industry) and whilst I have scores of old photos from the 50’s and early 60’s these are all of trucks rather than buses. I believe I have 1 odd bus photo (if I can find it) of a Leyland pulling into the bus station from Damside Street but unfortunately no story to go with it.

David Hayhurst

12/01/15 – 07:01

Does a list of what was on the destination blind of M&H buses exist anywhere?

Andy

17/01/15 – 06:12

Massey sliding doors were a victim of the usual British half cab/forward entrance body weakness found on just about every other chassis and body combination on such vehicles.
The Massey sliding door fitted to forward entrance PD2s (we had 4 of these at Baxter’s in Airdrie) would occasionally slide out of its runners, due to the amount of flexing in that area of these buses. It was therefore the case that the sliding door would rarely fall off the vehicle onto the roadway.
All of Baxter’s Massey bodied PD2s were of lowbridge configuration and the forward entrance examples made for interesting contortions by those of us who were employed as conductors. They were well liked by the drivers for their turn of speed, and ease of driving compared with the various Bristol Lodekkas we had in the fleet, which was under control of the SBG Eastern Scottish company when I was there.

Mr Anon

25/04/15 – 09:21

Andy there is a book called ‘Morecambe and Heysham’ by a Harry Postlethwaite. This has a fleet list in and is the history of MHTD Isbn number 978 190530 4424.

Ian Bradshaw

20/11/15 – 06:44

My dad was a bus driver in Morecambe, in the 1970’s (Ribble, not Corporation). Orginally there was a tram route between Morecambe and Heysham, and when drivers got a shift on that service they still said they were “on track”, presumably from the days when the old tramlines were still in the road. Does anyone know if they still say this?

Vaughan Birbeck

21/11/15 – 06:03

Vaughan, the entire Lancaster-Morecambe-Heysham route (L6, later 570) was always known to Ribble crews as ‘the track’. I believe there are or were other operators (Midland Red is one of which I am aware) who also had a ‘track’.
I’ve not previously heard the suggestion that the term arose from the existence of tram tracks, and don’t know what to make of the idea really. As far as I am aware trams never operated between Lancaster and Morecambe – electric trams ran locally in Lancaster, horse trams in Morecambe, and petrol trams (I believe) between Morecambe Battery and Heysham (it may have been to the Strawberry Gardens, I’m not sure).
I worked at Ribble’s Morecambe depot through most of the 1970s (as a conductor, and later driver) and knew your father well.

David Call

21/11/15 – 09:34

The famous West Riding route 10 from Wakefield to Leeds (now 110) was (is?) known as “the track” and replaced (and even tried to imitate) the trams along this route.

Joe

22/11/15 – 06:55

The Tynemouth and District service 8 from North Shields Ferry Landing to the Bandstand at Whitley Bay, was also known as ‘The Track’ because it followed the exact route of the former tram route

Ronnie Hoye

22/11/15 – 06:56

Some interesting thoughts here about the origins of “The Track”, as it relates to the Lancaster & Morecambe area. I have – but it’s hidden behind a pile of stuff that normally lives under the model railway, while I do some major work on said model – an early 1900’s map of the area, and it does show SOME tram tracks. I’ll have a look to see if they did or did not run cross boundary.

Pete Davies

22/11/15 – 08:55

www.old-maps.co.uk has a 1913 1:2500 OS map which shows a tramway which can be traced from the Lune Bridge through to Morecambe where it terminates by going round the Euston Rd/Market St???/Cheapside/Moss Lane block, there is no indication that it is 2 tramways meeting end to end at the boundary. It does not appear to connect with the sea front tramway.

John Lomas

22/11/15 – 11:31

My ‘initiation’ with Midland Red, after route learning was ‘The Track’ – service 201 Smethwick to Worlds End. It was almost some sort of sadistic punishment, a D5 (no power steering) and 18 islands within some 5-6 miles! This was supposed to be shared between Digbeth & Bearwood garages. I still believe I was the only one from Digbeth, my arms hurt as I write!

Nigel Edwards

23/11/15 – 06:34

I’ve unearthed the book of maps. I can confirm that the Lancaster & District (horse-drawn) operation did cross the boundary at Torrisholme and it terminated in Market Street, Morecambe. The notes to map reference 434638 say that there was no connection with Morecambe Corporation’s (horse-drawn) operation along the seafront.

Pete Davies

23/11/15 – 06:34

Huddersfield services 370/1 between Lindley and Dalton/Rawthorpe are still known as ‘the track’ – maybe to do with the former trolleybus services on this route.

Ian Wild

24/11/15 – 13:46

I can’t now remember the Midland Red route I saw referred to as ‘The Track’, but I’m sure it wasn’t Smethwick to Worlds End. I think it’s likely that every significant depot would have had its own particular ‘track’.

David Call

25/11/15 – 07:25

The Midland Red route I remember being referred to as ‘The Track’ was the B87 Birmingham to Dudley via Smethwick and Oldbury, but as you say, David, there were probably others.

Allan White

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

03/01/19 – 06:29

For research purposes does anyone know why Morecambe & Heysham stopped their 40 year ‘nothing but AEC’ purchasing policy in 1960 when they bought the first of five Leyland PD2s??

Howard

03/01/19 – 16:32

I believe it was caused by the retirement of one Manager and the appointment of his replacement. Others may have a closer working knowledge of what happened in M&H. I was in Lancaster, and the two Councils didn’t “get on”!!!

Pete Davies

05/01/19 – 09:02

Leyland were always very persistent in pressing their claim to supply local authorities in Lancashire. I suspect they may have had a special campaign to drum up extra business round the end of the 50s. Even Nottingham, whose only previous experience of Leylands was 30 TTB3 trolleybuses in 1935, took 44 PD2/40s in 1958/59. There must have been some serious inducement to break with the tried and tested AEC Regents.

Stephen Ford

Halifax Corporation – Leyland Titan PD2 – CCP 162C – 62

Halifax Corporation - Leyland Titan PD2/37 - CCP 162C - 62
Photo by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page

Halifax Corporation Transport and Joint Omnibus Committee
1965
Leyland Titan PD2/37
Roe H37/28F

This photo is of a C. H. Roe Version of an Halifax Corporation Leyland Titan PD2/37. You can compare it to a Weymann bodied version tomorrow when there will be Leyland Titan PD3 also operated by Halifax, so the appearance should not be affected by the livery.
This Titan was passed on to WYPTE on the 1st of April 1974 and renumbered 3062
The photo was taken outside the old head office of the Halifax Building Society, but there”s a different story altogether.
To see what the Halifax livery was like there is a colour shot of a Weymann PD2 of Halifax Corporation here.

Oldham Corporation – Leyland Titan PD2/4 – DBN 330 – 427


Photo by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Oldham Corporation
1949
Leyland Titan PD2/4
Leyland H30/26R

The PD2/4 was a special model it was a PD2/3 which was 26′ 0″ long 8′ 0″ wide, had an exposed radiator, synchromesh gearbox and this is where they differ the PD2/3 had vacuum brakes and the PD2/4 had air brakes. These buses were originally owned by Bolton Corporation but see below for Keith’s excellent comment.

Bus tickets issued by this operator can be viewed here.

A full list of Titan codes can be seen here.

This photo shows 2 of the batch of Bolton PD2/4’s after sale to Oldham Corporation in approx 1966. In the company of Oldham’s traditional fare of Roe bodied Titans, they are wearing the maroon and white livery
These purchases arose due to the Ministry of Transport putting prohibition notices on a substantial number of Oldham’s fleet due to maintenance problems. Further Leyland bodied PD2’s were also purchased from Halifax and Sheffield, to help out at the time.
Also seen to the extreme right of the photo, is one of the hired in Manchester PD2/3 “3200” Leyland bodied “Salmon tins”, the original “Farringtons”.

Keith Jackson

A batch of PD2/4s found their way to Dublin Carrying the CIE version of the traditional Leyland body they were known not surprisingly as “Boltons” they lasted until the end of the 1960s. For many years CIEs also owned large numbers of enclosed radiator PD3s with in house bodywork which gives a vague idea of what 30 foot Leyland coachwork might have looked like. CIE retained the pre-war practice of a triple upper deck front window on theses buses which also had 6 lower deck windows. The last CIE Titans were rebuilds using parts of withdrawn Leyland Tiger PS types the bodywork was supplied CKD by Park Royal. Leicester had a batch of PD3s to a similar design in 1966 sadly in part it was based on the early rear engined design and was brutally ugly to my mind although others may differ.

Chris Hough

I lived in Oldham for many years and remember the problems the department had. Buses were sent to Halifax and other places to be repaired as well as by the Corporation. Some of them had to be withdrawn which necessitated the purchase if 16 vehicles, 8 from Sheffield, 4 from Bolton and 4 from Halifax. 427 PBU 927 was in fact a PD2/30. The ex Bolton vehicle pictured was numbered 472.

Eric Langley

Yorkshire Traction – Leyland Titan PD2 – VHE 193 – 1193

Yorkshire Traction - Leyland Titan PD2 - VHE 193 - 1193

Yorkshire Traction
1961
Leyland Titan PD2 
Roe H35/28F

Here we are in Huddersfield again on the road where all the non Corporation buses had there terminus, although the odd one did sneak in now and then. I think it was Lord Street and the building on the left is the Parish Church, this is where I think all the buses to surrounding towns i.e. Wakefield, Dewsbury and Barnsley for example started there journey.
Anyway this is a very interesting bus, I have titled it as a Leyland Titan PD2 as it was listed in my “British Bus Fleets” book but actually it was a re-bodied Leyland Tiger PS2/1.
I found in the Roe body list on the “Bus Lists on the web” website that the original Leyland Tiger registration was EVH 211, knowing that VH was an Huddersfield registration I thought I would try to find out who owned it originally. I ruled out the corporation as they were more into AEC single deckers, no way would it be ex Hanson they would have re-bodied it for themselves several times. Then I remembered that Yorkshire Traction were part owners of the Huddersfield based County Motors, so onto the “Huddersfield PTG” website and sure enough there it is EVH 211 fleet no 83 a 1949 Tiger PS2/1 with a Roe B34F body. If you would like to see what it looked like originally there is a link here you will have to scroll half way down the page to find it.

Tracky rebuilt and refurbished many PS1 and PS2 Tigers – so much that they merited new registration numbers. They were always referred to as Tigers, not Titans, after their rebuild and re-registration.

David Oldfield

YTC indeed did rebuild a significant number of obsolete half cab single decks, not all of which were for themselves – for example Stratford Blue had a similar bus to the one shown.
The chassis were, more accurately, built using PD2 chassis rails with running gear and other components salvaged from the donor vehicle.
YTC had an honourable tradition of rebuilding/re-bodying, as an example look no further than the preserved Tiger number 492 with its’ post-war body.
The last vehicles to be rebuilt were the three Leopards in NBC days – Numbers 153/4 and 386.
The first two were, in principle the same format as the PS2s i.e. the donor vehicles (ex Yorkshire Woollen in this case) were simply donors of components as the vehicles had updated chassis rails to PSU3E spec. They received Plaxton Supreme bodies with new registrations. Interestingly they had YTC chassis numbers. The 3rd vehicle in the exercise was very heavily rebuilt utilising the original chassis and body frame with updated running gear, it also gained a new registration.

Andrew

I worked for YTC when 153/4 were in for rebuild. The original chassis rails were retained, also no change to the O600 engine and keeping the original 4 speed gearbox made the outcome very predictable. There was no consideration given as to what type of service these buses would be used on. End result, underpowered and lack of top speed.

Trackyman

29/08/12 – 12:17

If ever there was a box on wheels then this was it. It must be amongst the top three ugliest buses ever. So bad were these that YTC adopted a modified livery for them to improve their looks but to no avail.
Similar conversion with NCME bodies were very attractive in contrast.

Chris Hough

29/08/12 – 14:55

I agree, Chris, but what are your other two? They certainly did Roe’s reputation no good at all. [People would see the name Roe, not realising it was a PRV design.]

David Oldfield

29/08/12 – 16:38

David my other personal two are Northern Counties Nottingham style bodies supplied to A1 Lytham and Stratford Blue and the ECW bodies supplied to South Yorks PTE complete with peaks fore and aft. I think Colchester also bought some like the Roe rebuilds how could they sink so low.

Chris Hough

29/08/12 – 18:56

I think the ECWs were, essentially, a SYPTE “design” improvement which (sorry, here I go again) ruined the balance and symmetry of the original. They also resulted in some atrocious blind spots which were cured by cutting holes in the pillars to provide better vision. Why on earth Colchester then bought them, goodness only knows. Did anyone else?

David Oldfield

13/05/15 – 06:50

I worked in the body shop at Yorkshire Traction for nearly 50 years from 1956. I had a hand in lifting the old single deck bodies off before the mechanics took over and did a full strip down. The Leyland PS1s were sent to Charles Roe and were fitted with light weight double deck bodies. They were fine for the first few years , but when the metalastic bearer end brackets became tired they creaked and groaned like an old sailing ship when cornering.The PD2s were sent to Northern Counties and the last batch went to Charles Roe, but were built to a design by Park Royal. They certainly looked a little strange. In later years on having passed my PSV all types driving test I had the pleasure of driving on service most of the Leyland conversions.I think of all the various types of buses I drove at Yorkshire Traction my favourite without doubt was the PD2.

Barrie Micklethwaite

18/06/15 – 16:45

To confirm the location, it is Lord Street, Huddersfield where most (all?) the Tracky and County routes terminated.

Tim Jackson

30/05/20 – 06:50

The comments about these re-bodied buses have made interesting reading, I drove these many times in the late 60`s and early 70`s, the crews called them “Banana Boxes”, among other things, and you certainly needed to be aware of what type of bus you were driving when it came to these, the body was very light, and when fully loaded they rolled alarmingly on bends, the Vacuum braking system needed thought too, nothing seemed to happen for ages when you pressed the brake, so stopping accurately needed advance planning to allow for they delay, like all the PD2s and PD3s, being half cab they were warm in winter, during the summer it was nice to ride about with the sliding cab door open, and the full window clipped back over the bonnet to get plenty of air, If memory serves me the PD1s had hinged doors and had to stay closed, but you could still open the window.

busman25

United Services – Leyland Titan PD2/3 – BCK 460


Photograph P Haywood

United Services
1947
Leyland Titan PD2/3
Burlingham L53R

A few days ago I received an email from a Mr Paul Haywood with a photo attached, below is the email, above is the photo.

“I have just come across your site, and noticed the article on United Services. Attached is a poor view of a United Services ex Ribble PD2/3 (?) with a Burlingham body, taken at Wakefield bus station sometime around 1969, but don’t know which of the three families owned the bus.”

“Perhaps one of your viewers could help?”

United Services was owned by three families but at times it was hard to tell just who owned what, I do hope somebody can supply the information Paul is wanting, if you know please leave a comment.
What I have managed to find out about this bus is that it was originally with Ribble Motor Services fleet number 2517 a Leyland Titan PD2/1 with a Brush L53R body. A batch of the original PD2/1s were re-bodied by Burlingham as L53R and converted to 8ft wide at the same time making them PD2/3s.
There is also to the left in the above photo a Guy Wulfrunion one of the forum members has been asking about them lately. If anybody could send me a photo of one I wouldn”t mind doing a little article about them, they were a bit different.

A full list of Titan codes can be seen here.

BCK 460_fleetname

I can answer who owned the Titan.
It was Cooper Brothers. The clue is the United CB Services fleet name on the side of the bus. The Cooper Brothers fleet had “CB” inserted between “United” and “Services”. 
The WR & P Bingley fleet had a different fleet name style with “United” directly over the “Services” name. The “U” and the “D” of “United” were oversized so that the “Services” name fitted in between underneath. I hope that helps.
I was brought up in a village called Crofton. The United fleet ran at the edge of the village via Doncaster Road into Wakefield. I have some memories of the double deckers however as I was born in 1961 my memory is far clearer with vehicles from the 1970’s and 1980’s, most notably the three Plaxton Derwent bodied Lepoards (that had loads of character) that Bingleys used and the Panther Cub and two Bedfords that Cooper Brothers used.

Mark B

I have since discovered that it started life as a PD1A with a Brush body in 1947. In 1955 it was rebodied by Burlingham and widened to become a PD2/3. It was bought by Coopers in 1965 and withdrawn (presumed scrapped) in 1972. Thanks to John Kaye for this information.

Paul Haywood

31/12/11 – 07:35

I can confirm that the CB does indeed stand for Cooper Brothers. My Grandad was Lawrence Lee Cooper and his brother Walter Lee Cooper. Their association with the Bingleys was very close as Dot Bingley, Phillis Bingleys daughter was my Godmother.

Vicky Cooper

31/12/11 – 09:28

Can I be a pain in the neck? I also thought that, when they sold them – and Ribble had a lot of them – these interesting rebuilds were given 7.4 engines in exchange for the 0.600s.

David Oldfield

31/12/11 – 09:28

I’m grateful to all correspondents in this topic, as I’ve learned much that I didn’t know about this fascinating trio of joint operators. I believe, open to correction, that Bingley’s had considerably more mileage than the other two, and little ever seems to be written about Everett the third partner. I worked at Caldaire/Arriva in Pontefract with Mr. Bill Bingley who was a relation of Phillis. Earlier in my career, at Samuel Ledgard of Leeds, we had two identical ex Ribble rebuilds BCK 427/441 – fascinating and very sound vehicles they were too !!
Also in my Arriva times we had a school special from Crofton High School and so I became acquainted with the A638 and Mark B’s village in the 1990s/2000s. In the 1960s, when working in the traffic office at Wallace Arnold’s, we had frequent communication with Mrs Phillis Bingley who seemed to be able to conjure up incredible numbers of her coaches and drivers for hiring in at our busy times. This was to a Leeds resident like me a fascinating era – and area – with which to be involved and I wouldn’t have missed any of it for the World.

Chris Youhill

31/12/11 – 11:15

A very interesting question from David about the possible engine exchange and something I haven’t heard before. I too would like to know because I travelled on this vehicle, it would have been around 1970/71, one Saturday afternoon and I had a short ride from Hemsworth to South Kirkby but it’s so long ago now that I have no recollection of the engine sound! Incidentally, one of the un-rebuilt examples, BCK 440 with it’s original Brush body ended up as a mobile shop in the village where I was born and was often parked on the street where I lived, the registration has stuck in my mind ever since!

Chris Barker

31/12/11 – 15:00

BCK 423-460 was a batch of 38 Leyland PD1A/Brush L27/26R delivered to Ribble (2480-2517) in 1947. In 1955, 22 of them (including BCK 427, 441 and 460, but excluding BCK 440 mentioned above) were rebodied with Burlingham L27/26RD eight feet wide bodies. The chassis remained at their original 7ft 6in width – the extra 3 inch side overhang can be seen at the wheel arches on the photo. In 1958/9, 21 of those 22 had their 7.4 engines replaced by O.600 engines, all but one coming from withdrawn vehicles, to which were fitted the displaced 7.4 engines before sale. (Info from PSV Circle Ribble Fleet History)

Dave Williamson

01/01/12 – 07:12

W R P Bingley had a regular works service to Blakeley’s Boot Protectors (segs in local parlance) in Armley Leeds This involved a number of Yeates bodied coaches up to five in the sixties.

Chris Hough

03/01/12 – 06:53

Thank you to all for these most interesting postings, I travelled to school in Wakefield from the mid-sixties onwards, very frequently on the United Service as they were more interesting than West Riding. Many of these journeys were on ‘BCK’, often very full! It probably worked harder for Coopers than it ever did for Ribble.
I recall the Cooper’s fleet was for several years BCK 460, CCK 354 (ex-Ribble all-Leyland PD2) and MDT 220 (ex-Doncaster Roe-bodied Regent III). The Leylands seemed to be the mainstay of the fleet, doing most of the Wakefield-Doncaster workings, and the AEC spent more time on the peak-hour short journeys Wakefield to Hemsworth or South Elmsall. The photo is 1969 or later, as hiding behind BCK is EWX 819 H, Bedford VAM / Willowbrook which (I think) replaced CCK 354.
Yes, Bingleys seemed to be the dominant member of the group. The basic Wakefield-Doncaster service required three buses, logically one per member, but there were many duplicates and short workings and Bingleys seemed to provide more than one-third of those. My parents used to say that there was previously another member called Granter’s, so possibly Bingley’s had taken over Granter’s share ?? It would be fascinating to learn how the duties were shared out, if anyone has any info? It would also be great to see a fleet history for all the members, if one exists ?

Roger Townend

04/01/12 – 06:52

As with many operators, Ribble was a rich source of vehicles for United Services. The ones I have record of are BCK 438, another of the type pictured above with Everett, White Ladies BRN 281 (Burlingham) and DCK 213 (East Lancs) All Leyland PD2’s CCK 354 and DRN 268 and Brush bodied PD2’s CCK 646 and CCK 653. There were also utilities ACK 755 (Daimler) and ACK 819 (Guy) The vehicles of Everett seen to have been rather anonymous, Bingley’s were usually well turned out with the fleet name as shown above whilst Cooper Bros, particularly when in the two tone blue and cream were quite impressive. One interesting connection with the recent postings about Blue Bus Services and W Gash is that Bingley’s apparently also had a Burlingham Seagull bodied Daimler Freeline. I’ve never seen a picture of it, does anyone have one?

Chris Barker

02/05/12 – 08:46

I recall back in the late fifties or early sixties that whichever of the operating partners of United Services (possibly Everetts) that operated from the Kinsley depot near Hemsworth used to leave vehicles parked outside overnight, and, come the morning, rabbits had to be chased off the busses prior to them entering service.

Mick Taylor

02/05/12 – 11:16

Mick, the Kinsley Depot was the headquarters of W.R. & P. Bingley and was eventually taken over and used by Metro/Yorkshire Rider.

Chris Youhill

02/05/12 – 11:17

Nice story, Mick. Those who wanted a nice rabbit for dinner, no doubt caught the best one, before chasing off the others!

Chris Hebbron

02/05/12 – 17:23

Mick and Chris H – the reason for the presence of the rabbits has just occurred to me – what else could one expect at premises called Hunter’s Farm Garage, Kinsley ??

Chris Youhill

03/05/12 – 08:00

I’m intrigued by Dave Williamson’s information about these vehicles being fitted with 0.600 engines from withdrawn vehicles. If this was done in 1958/9, it would seem a bit early for anything with the post-war 9.8ltr engine to be withdrawn. I wonder what the donors were, PS2 coaches perhaps?

Chris Barker

03/05/12 – 08:52

They’d been chased by the greyhounds (whippets?) from Kinsley dog track!

Joe

03/05/12 – 14:06

The answer to Chris Barker’s question is that 19 of those 21 O.600 engines came from 1946/7 PD1s, which had themselves been re-engined in 1948/9. Their original 7.4 litre engines were fitted to pre-war Leyland TS and LZ vehicles, replacing their original petrol engines. Of the remaining two O.600 engines, one came from a 1948 PD2, which was then withdrawn, and the other is described as a spare engine.

Dave Williamson

10/10/12 – 09:04

These Ribble rebuilds never cease to inspire comment. Does anyone have a copy of the book ’52 Years Of Ribble’, by Tom Collinge? Having once owned a copy of the book myself and knowing the detail into which the fleet history goes, I can’t help but think that the question of which engines went into which buses from which would be well and truly settled.
If one engine came from a 1948 PD2 which was then withdrawn this could have only been 2648, the only Burlingham bus-bodied (as opposed to coach-bodied) PD2 Ribble operated. It was the first PD2 to be withdrawn, going before the Brush lowbridges 2661-91, which themselves went probably a couple of years earlier than slightly older Leyland-bodied examples.
One notion which I must contest is Dave Williamson’s assertion that the difference between the chassis width and body width can be seen in the above photo, since the position of the wheels relative to the bodywork looks to me just as it would on any 8-foot wide bus. The chassis width would have remained at 7’6″, yes, with the new body mounted on outriggers, but both axles have definitely been replaced. If you want to see what an 8′ wide body looks like on a 7’6″ axle, refer to a shot of Bradford trolleys 703-39 (and possibly others, I’m not sure) which were rebodied in the late fifties/early sixties, being fitted with new front axles but retaining the 7’6″ rear ones.
Now I’m really going to set the cat amongst the pigeons and assert that, in the late 1960s (which was the only period in which I came into contact with the United operations) the Bingley depot at Kinsley was used purely as a coach garage, and the buses were accommodated at a separate depot at Upton. I’m pretty sure that WYPTE acquired only the Kinsley depot, the implication being that Upton closed in Bingley days.
Paul, when you saw ‘Ma’ Bingley and her daughter in the traffic office, was it at a coach or bus depot (or both)? And were you at Kinsley, or Upton?

David Call

18/10/12 – 17:25

Thanks David C for pointing out my mistake in claiming the rebodied chassis remained 7’6″ wide -“should have gone to a well known chain of opticians” springs to mind! New 8′ axles were fitted prior to being rebodied by Burlingham. The PD2 that donated its engine was indeed 2648, as you surmise.

David Williamson

19/10/12 – 06:22

David C – sorry for the late reply, but I’ve only just seen your question. I suspect it must have been Kinsley as this was where we knew “Ma” was based. The other night we had a talk in our village Institute by a local historian who, at the end of a very interesting talk on “Keighley between the wars” acclaimed – “Forget official history books written by academics, real history lies with ordinary folk and their memories!” How true – that’s if we can remember things!

Paul Haywood

20/10/12 – 10:22

BRN 281_lr

It’s been interesting to follow the discussion concerning United Services, particularly the recent Burlingham PD1 debate. Thought you may be interested to see another ex Ribble Leyland in the fleet seen here at Doncaster Marshgate bus station.

Andrew Charles

21/10/12 – 08:14

BCK 437_lr

Here are three more of these popular Ribble PD1 to PD2 rebodies, this time with Ezra Laycock of Barnoldswick, photographed by me at their depot in 1966 or 1967. BCK 437 & 452 with an unidentified third one just sneaking into view on the left. (Sorry about the dodgy quality but it took Photoshop and I over an hour to get it to this state !)

John Stringer

21/10/12 – 19:14

The bus just in the shot would have been Laycock 75 (BCK 428), the other two being numbered 74 & 76 respectively. After acquisition (in 1966, I think) these three buses comprised Laycock’s entire double-deck fleet until joined in 1968 by ex-Ribble 1357 (ECK 927), a lowbridge Leyland-bodied PD2/12, upon which I took my psv test in November 1970. Although I worked for Laycock’s for about six months after taking my test, the only one of the buses illustrated above I drove was BCK 452, and this only on two/three occasions. This was because its regular driver (fitter Philip Baker) only had a midweek day off once every three weeks! I couldn’t drive BCK 437 (usually driven by Roy Laycock, who also had a midweek day off every three weeks) since the driver’s seat was jammed in its position, and I couldn’t comfortably reach the pedals! What a disappointment. The third rebuild, BCK 428, had already gone by the time I started with Laycock’s, having been inadvertently driven under the (very) low bridge adjacent to Nelson railway station. It was replaced by ex-City Of Oxford 968 (968 CWL), a Regent V/MCW (becoming Laycock 83), which I also drove on two/three occasions. Of these four double-deckers (Laycock 74/6, 80/3) at least three survived up to the takeover by Pennine (not sure about the fourth), 74 later being privately preserved (in Ribble colours), and 83 subsequently operating for Wild’s, of Barnoldswick.
Anyone know what ultimately happened to BCK 437? The last I heard (which is quite a few years ago now) its status was not known.

David Call

11/11/12 – 17:08

Between 1954 and 1956 I was a pupil at Wakefield College and had United Services school contract to travel between Hemsworth and Wakefield. I don’t have any details of Reg Nos but I do remember the Types of buses used in the era. The three companies involved must have had some kind of rota because they appeared to change a couple of times each week. The most popular double deckers used by all three companies in those days were were Guy Arabs with utility bodies, and in winter freezing cold. Bingleys also ran a Leyland TS7/8, a very fast machine for its age but equally as cold in winter as the Guys. I think it was in 1955 when Bingleys acquired a low bridge Daimler, this was a superb machine compared with what we were used to. The best thing about it was it had an excellent heating system. After leaving college I joined the West Riding Automobile Co, and later moved on to the Yorkshire Traction Co. The job allowed me to drive all the different types of vehicles that I had admired in the past. Happy days.

Barrie Micklethwaite

12/11/12 – 12:00

The United Services only had three partners, Bingley, Cooper Bros and Everett – The closest working relationship was between Bingley and Cooper Bros – Ma Bingley (Phillis) was based at Kingsley whilst Frank Bingley was based at Upton. The Coopers, Lawrence, Walter and Lols son Austin was based in South Kirkby depot opposite the Old Mill.

Vicky Cooper

02/04/13 – 09:55

A slight correction needs to be made to my reference above to Ribble PD2 2648. I could have said that it was Ribble’s only Burlingham-bodied PD2/3, or Ribble’s only PD2 with a Burlingham body to the same style as those on the PD1/3 ‘White Ladies’ (see pic of BRN281, above), or their only PD2 with a lowbridge Burlingham body. There were, of course, later Burlingham-bodied PD2/12s (1431-75). There’s a nice photo of 2648 in its Ribble days here www.sct61.org.uk/rl2648  (click on ‘higher resolution’ – and note the similarity of the bodywork to that on the adjacent East Lancs-bodied ‘White Lady’ PD2). It subsequently ran for a few years with Carruthers, of New Abbey, Dumfriesshire.

David Call

05/12/13 – 16:01

Regarding the United Services debate and the operators W.R. & P. Bingley, Cooper Bros’ and Everett’s
I have seven black and white photographs of some of these fleets which I obtained with others from an ad in an Ian Allan publication in the mid to late 60’s.
They are of :
Bingley’s UWT 875 AEC Regent V in the identical location of 876 shown parked up in Wakefield bus station.
LTO 10 Daimler previously referred to in the Northern Doncaster Bus Station.
DCK 213 Ex Ribble about to leave Wakefield Bus Station.
Cooper Bros’ CCK 646 Ex Ribble Leyland on the stand for Doncaster in Wakefield.
MDT 220 AEC Regent III? Outbound from Wakefield passing Woolworths at the top of Kirkgate and a Daimler single decker.
HWT 48 on the stand in Doncaster.
Now the remaining two have no distinguishing marks and therefore I wonder if these were Everett’s? They are Ex Ribble Leyland BCK 438 unloading in Wakefield Bus Station and Regent III? AJX 243 on the stand in Doncaster.

CRE 93X
CRE 93X_2

The plot widens with another photo in the batch which shows a Dennis coach CRE93? Operated by S. Bingley Luxury Tours, of 53 Westfield Road, Hemsworth. Presumably a relation?

John Ramskill

05/12/13 – 16:53

AJX 243 was owned by W. & H. Everett. It had been new to Hebble (No.28, later 228) in 1948, who withdrew it in 11/59 and sold it to dealer Frank Cowley of Salford. Everett’s purchased it from them in 3/60, and withdrew it in 8/64.

John Stringer

13/06/15 – 06:43

Does anyone have a photograph of the heroine of this tale Phyllis “Ma” Bingley?

Willy Coupar

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

20/03/18 – 16:40

Further to Chris Barker (04/01/12 – 06:52), I haven’t managed to find a shot of Bingley’s Daimler Freeline (LWY906) but here’s one of Everett’s LWT704, Freeline/Harrington, new to Kitchin’s of Pudsey. www.flickr.com/photos/

David Call

21/03/18 – 05:42

David C, what a magnificent beast it was too, even though it was probably in it’s latter days. Many thanks for your link which contains a wealth of other fascinating vehicles and operators as well.

Chris Barker

22/03/18 – 05:58

I’m still going round the houses and not quite getting there. Here’s a shot of LWT704 when with Kichin’s (note the common mis-spelling).. www.na3t.org/road/photo/HuA0434
And one of Bingley’s KWY904, AEC Regal IV/Yeates.. www.na3t.org/road/photo/HuA0451

David Call

Northern General – Leyland Titan PD2/3 – CCN 139 – 2080


Photograph by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

The Northern General Transport Company
1951
Leyland Titan PD2/3
Leyland H33/26R

This is a photo of a very typical all Leyland Titan of the period the only thing that would be different to a thousand other all Leyland Titans would be the layout of the destination blinds. They were good, solid, reliable and economical workhorses so why change a winning formula, I am not sure just how many all Leyland Titans were built it would be interesting to know, if you know please leave a comment.
This bus was not new to Northern General it was originally delivered to  Gateshead and District Omnibus Company a subsidiary of Northern General and was number 39 in there fleet.
I do like the van at the side of the bus, if memory serves me correct I think it was called a “Morris Commercial” but nick named a “Morris Comical” its predecessor which was not as long was narrower but just as tall with a rather strange radiator grill. Anyway that”s enough wandering off the point this is a website for buses not vans.

A full list of Titan codes can be seen here.

Just thought I’d ask if anyone can clear up a mystery.

The final version of the Leyland body on PD2s was one of the best and most handsome around. It was derived from the earlier, more stark, version without radiused corners to windows.
The 1951 batch for Sheffield Corporation had rain guttering over the bays and half-drop windows. Making them different from any before or after. Most buses had gone to sliders rather than half-drop other than London Transport with the RT and RM family.
This Northern General Titan of similar vintage has similar detailing, as have all the other 1950/51 examples I have seen (or their photographs) recently.

Was it deliberate Leyland policy or just a coincidence?

David Oldfield

I remember seeing these buses regularly in the early 1950s to 1967 approx, very smart indeed in their chocolate brown livery cream relief bands edged in black when in their original Gateshead Omnibus Company livery. Two at least CCN162 and CCN 171 ended their days operating with T D Alexanders “Greyhound” company at Arbroath. Note the unusual two aperture rear destination screens See this link.

Gerald Walker

07/03/11 – 08:28

The van is a Morris LD (Light Delivery) the Morris Commercial you refer to was the PV (Parcel Van model)

Roger Broughton

25/09/11 – 15:30

Northern General had a number of PD2’s with several different types of bodies, MCW Orion and Park Royal with rear doors were two I can remember, but for some strange reason Percy Main depot (Tynemouth & Wakefields)where I worked, we had five PD2’s with Willowbrook bodies, they were AFT 49 to 53 and the fleet numbers were 219/223

Ronnie Hoye

18/01/12 – 06:37

P.S to my previous comments, if you go to Google and type in AFT 53, you will find a picture of one of Tynemouth’s Willowbrook bodied PD2’s fleet number 223 being used a a driver training vehicle. The next batch of buses at Percy Main were the first 30ft vehicles, they were Orion bodied PD3’s registration AFT 924/35 234/5 carried the Wakefields name as did the first Leyland Atlantean CFT 636 fleet no 236. Some of the PD3’s were later transferred to Gateshead but ATF 930 ‘230’ became the training vehicle replacing 223

Ronnie Hoye

18/01/12 – 10:34

Not the most attractive of bodies, Ronnie, not helped by the heavy upstairs opening vents.

Chris Hebbron

18/01/12 – 13:48

You’re not wrong Chris, but I don’t think they were best suited to this particular livery. the Northern group had several layout changes, when these buses first came they were all maroon with cream roof and centre band, but I always thought that they looked best in the all maroon with cream band, that was the style adopted for the ‘red fleet’ by the time the PD3’s came onto the scene, Sunderland and District remained in their dark blue and white, and Gateshead at first changed from chocolate and cream to the same green and cream livery as Tyneside but later went to all green with cream centre band

Ronnie Hoye

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

19/01/12 – 05:24

It’s amazing that the fleet livery changes should be so many. And it’s amazing what a difference the right livery makes. Sometimes, a woman should be consulted, as long as there’s a veto on pink and princessy! Whatever, the principle is keep it simple!

Chris Hebbron

19/01/12 – 12:28

Funny you should say that Chris, I don’t know where it came from or how long they had it ‘it may well have been a demonstrator’ but for a short while in the 70’s, Moor Dale Coaches had a Plaxton bodied Bedford in a Purple Lilac and White livery, it sounds hideous but in actual fact it did look quite attractive, but don’t tell anyone I said that, but you’re right about livery making all the difference, bright trim is also a factor. Moor Dale’s livery was Scarlet, Royal Blue and White, they seemed to favour Plaxton bodied Bedford’s, and they always seemed to stand out from the crowd, at the same time they had four ‘I think’ old double deckers of various types that were used on school runs, and whilst they carried the same colours they never seemed to look right.

Ronnie Hoye

19/01/12 – 13:24

I know what you mean, Ronnie, about getting the colour-scheme right. Here are two local examples near me, worth mentioning.
Although I”m not a lover of swooping liveries, this Leyland Olympian, in Swanbrook livery of green, purple and white, works, IMHO, probably because of the expanse of white top. Unusually, for Swanbrook, this bus has a glossy finish! They operate a few stage services in Gloucestershire, but mainly do school runs. See: //www.flickr.com/photos/  
This Leyland Olympian with Gloucester operator, Bennett”s Coaches, has a pleasant, more or less, traditional livery. The somewhat disparate colours, with tricky orange, work together, aided by chrome hubcaps. Bennett”s (coach and NatEx operator) have no stage services, but operate Park and Ride and school services. This vehicle is on a layover from P&R duties, usually performed by swish coaches. See: //www.flickr.com/photos/  
Of course, I may have no taste for colour at all, being colour-blind! That’s why I got married, so that I could have a dress advisor! Of course, that’s between you and me!

Chris Hebbron

Halifax Corporation – Leyland Titan PD2/37 – CJX 323C – 283


Photograph by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Halifax Corporation Transport and Joint Omnibus Committee
1965
Leyland Titan PD2/37
Weymann H36/28F

Here we have one of Halifax corporations work horse Titans on a winters day. If memory serves me correctly they had very good heaters and were usually very warm although they did have a tendency to steam up a bit. Where I lived as a lad was at the terminus of the bus route and in those days the bus would stand there for anything from 5 to 10 minutes depending on its out-bound journey before starting back to town. When the weather was cold the driver would keep the engine running to keep the bus warm and I remember what a fantastic sound the engines of these Titans had on tick-over, very calming. The best sounding diesel engine on tick-over ever in my opinion though was the miniature train that ran between “Peasholm Park” and “Scalby Mills” at Scarboroughs north bay. I am not sure the number of cylinders 3 or 4 and probably water not air cooled but I am fairly sure it was a Lister engine, it could only be described as “music to the ears”.

A full list of Titan codes can be seen here.

I recall nothing warm about the earlier ones, as a kid I would huddle around the Clayton Dewandre heaters on the Regent III’s but buses of the 241-248 variety were way worse than the older vehicles, these later modified titans were better with moquette seating in the lower saloon and I quite liked the Roe bodied ones, but warm – no!

Christopher

06/10/12 – 07:28

I think this bus is coming from Queensbury through Catherine Slack with Windy Bank on the left. It takes me back to the time when I was without my car for a while when living on the Mountain in Queensbury. The Halifax double decker used to come up through Bradshaw. I remember the bus proudly wearing a plaque to it having been refurbished.

Alex

06/10/12 – 10:58

Actually it is passing through Cote Hill along Burnley Road, returning from Booth to Halifax. The cottages on the left are at the top of Bairstow Lane, obscured by the bus is the Peacock public house with the Warley hillside in the background.

John Stringer

If this was anywhere near Queensbury there would be at least a foot of snow not just a few inches, believe me I lived there for a few years. Three months of winter then nine months of bad weather is Queensbury.

Peter

06/10/12 – 18:49

I too lived in Queensbury from 1967 to 1986 and I got used to the weather until I’d had enough after 19 years.
Thanks for putting me right.

Alex

07/10/12 – 08:17

Peter, that sums up Queensbury pretty well from my limited experience of Halifax in the mid ‘sixties. Driving a bus up the “hill” was always an experience – not too bad until you got above Boothtown, and then the strength of the wind could be decidedly alarming. In really extreme conditions, with memories still vivid of trams being blown over, the double decks were replaced by saloons.

Roger Cox

Not to mention the FOG many a time you couldn’t see your hand in front of your face. That’s why Percy Shaw of Boothtown invented the Cats Eyes so he could get home from his favourite pub at Queensbury, can’t remember it’s name, that’s an age thing I”m afraid.

Peter

07/10/12 – 10:00

Peter The pub is the Old Dolphin just outside the the Queensbury boundary at Clayton Heights. I saw him a few times leaving in his Rolls Royce Phantom.

Alex

Rawtenstall Corporation – Leyland Titan PD2/12 – RTC 822 – 18

Rawtenstall Corporation



Photographs copyright G Walker.

Rawtenstall Corporation
1953
Leyland Titan PD2/12
Leyland H31/26R

This Titan had a Leyland Metal frame Highbridge body which I think was the ultimate in half cab double deckers especially on a PD 2/12. The first shot shows the vehicle when I had repainted it back to its original Rawtenstall Corporation livery whilst the second shows the bus ready to attend the 1976 Trans Pennine Rally in Rossendale livery basically the result of a good wash and polish a few months after I acquired it.

Here is a brief history of Rawtenstall No 18.
First registered new to Rawtenstall Corporation on 23rd October 1953 and transferred to the Rossendale undertaking in 1974 on government reorganisation when Rawtenstall merged with Haslingden Corporation.
Withdrawn in October 1974 after covering 585,860 miles in service and sold to Bingorama of Bellshill, Lanarkshire in 1974 and run on services around Motherwell and Hamilton etc taking people to a bingo hall in Bellshill.
Purchased by Gerald Walker, Wigton, Cumbria in April 1976 and restored to former Rawtenstall livery.
The bus was sold back to Rossendale Borough on the last day of Half Cab operation in November 1982.
After a few years it was sold to Brian Crowther of Black Prince, Morley, Leeds. No restoration was carried out and consequently the bus was sold to Carl Ireland, Hull who sold the bus on to a preservationist in Norfolk. Here again the bus did not have any work carried out on it in the six or so years it was at this location. In October 2009 Steve Morris the well known preservationist accompanied by a coach operator friend went to collect the bus with a recovery vehicle with the intention of towing it back to Taunton having recently purchased the bus. However when they got to Norfolk the bus had been started and was running, after checking all systems over apart from a minor easily rectified electrical fault it was decided to drive back. After an hour at the wheel Steve changed over to my AEC fanatic friend and once he got hold of this superb Leyland was reluctant to changeover later on driving almost all the way back. (He has now changed his opinions of Leylands a fact I have been trying to persuade him for some years). This journey is no mean feat for an elderly bus fully restored but No 18 had not turned a wheel for about 6 years and was 57 years old. Work is now progressing on a full restoration and I understand from Steve that a considerable amount of welding work has to be carried out on the rear chassis frame. but generally the body is in fairly good condition. I am looking forward to the day when the bus takes to the road again which will not be too far into the future I hope.

There are more shots of No 18, interior and exterior to be seen here.

Photographs and Copy contributed by Gerald Walker

What a brilliant set of pictures of such a classic vehicle.

Some of today’s body builders could learn a few lessons on how to style a bus and build it in such a way that body panels stay on the bus without pop rivets every other week.

Terry Malloy

Indeed Terry, and it is exactly the same inside and out as Samuel Ledgard’s 1952 trio – PNW 91/2/3, the last vehicles the grand old man bought before his death in April of that year.

Chris Youhill

Rode on this back in its Rawtenstall days and hope to see it somewhere in the north-west soon alongside the two superb Rawtenstall single-deckers which are already doing the rally circuit. Where would we be without hard-working preservationists? Nice one Gerald!

Neville Mercer

Thanks for the compliment Neville, No 18 was a lovely bus both to drive, ride on and as Terry says above todays designers could learn a lot from this lovely workmanlike but pleasing to the eye double decker.

Gerald Walker

Chris seem to recall that Sammy refused to pay Leyland the price requested to paint these buses (PNW 91/92/93) and had them delivered unpainted so he could save a few quid and paint them at Armley.

Terry Malloy

That’s quite right Terry and I really can’t understand why he did that – excellent though his own craftsmen were at repaints I have to say that they didn’t do justice to these three fine brand new vehicles. Sadly they also had pretty unsatisfactory “home made” destination blinds at first.

Chris Youhill

As an AEC man I have always also been a big Leyland fan. Among my all time favourites were Sheffield Transport’s 656 – 667, 1952 equivalents to this superb example. I fully concur with the opinion that Leyland made one of the best and, simply, stylish bodies on the market and that this, final, version was the finest.
656 et al were delivered in an experimental green livery but soon repainted when there was uproar from the good burgers of Sheffield. [Other existing buses and trams received repaints in green and were, similarly, swiftly returned to cream and blue.]
Early metal framed Leylands were a structural disaster. Leyland then enticed Colin Bailey away from MCCW – who arguably had the best metal frame designs. Leyland never had problems from that time onwards.

David Oldfield

Quite moved to see the Titan destination to the village of my birth “Water”- and more so because I began my apprenticeship at Rawtenstall Corp Motors in 1955. I was in the paint shop. I don’t recognise the interior photos, nor remember working on it – so I guess it didn’t come in for a repaint until after I left in 1960.
In the 1950’s it was all brush painted, and the foreman got to do all the fancy bits like lining, much else was by transfers such as the coat of arms. I’m totally tickled to come across these pics by accident, and it has made the day for a 71 year old verging on 17.

Barrie Petterson

I can imagine the shock and pleasure of seeing a photo of a vehicle with twin connexions with your past, Barrie!
As an aside, looking at the supplementary photos reminded me of the square dashboard dials which Leylands of this period possessed. I’d quite forgotten.
I was also interested in the heaters the bus had been given, something which should have been de rigour in buses working in the challenging weather up North, but probably wasn’t! I digress here, but my coldest (unheated) journey ever was in the RAF (1958) when, on Winter Mondays, I’d get something like the 5.30am trolleybus from Eastney Depot (Southsea) to Hilsea (N. Portsmouth), change onto a Southdown (PD2?) to Fareham, get onto a Hants & Dorset Bristol left out in the yard all night and with frosted-up windows, then, at Warsash, walk to the pier which jutted out into the River Hamble, then board an RAF air-sea rescue launch, staying on deck, across Southampton Water, to Calshot. At the office, it was stone cold and needed a coke fire laying and set going. We would not be warm until noon!

Chris Hebbron

The upper saloon seating capacity is most unusual for this type of body in being for 31 passengers – the norm being 30. Presumably Rawtenstall specified a seat for three on the nearside by the emergency window ??

Chris Youhill

16/02/11 – 07:00

Great to see this bus I rode on these as a youngster, when I was brought up living at Helmshore, I always remember the Haslingden buses were recognisable by the blue seating which remained after the merger. Proper buses! All the best with your restoration look forward to seeing it again.

Andy Bury

17/02/11 – 07:00

What a beautifully presented traditional Leyland PD2!
Presumably the top picture is the original livery style and the lower one is a later application, I cant decide which I like most, I think I’m tempted towards the latter!

Chris Barker

04/08/11 – 07:21

Yes Rawtenstall had an extra seat added on the top deck according to the log book also an acquaintance from Rawtenstall remembered the extra seat being added.

Gerald Walker

04/08/11 – 21:48

What a fabulous set of photographs. I have always loved Leyland bodywork particularly the emergency rear exit. Looking forwards to seeing this bus on the rally field.

Philip Carlton

10/01/12 – 17:38

This is one of the most handsome and elegant bodies ever built, the beautiful colour scheme immaculately applied only does it more credit. I was born and lived in Southdown territory and they had 54 of this particular type. The Leyland bodywork was always my favourite, the superb Apple green and cream paintwork looked absolutely gorgeous. In my personal opinion Southdown’s insistence on having half drop windows fitted improved the side view by looking less heavy.

Diesel Dave

18/08/13 – 06:32

A stablemate to this bus was turned into a playbus and is parked up on a site at Ewood Bridge completely intact 16/8/13

Martin Trickett

19/08/13 – 07:09

To follow-up on the original post: although the Boroughs of Haslingden and Rawtenstall were amalgamated (together with the Borough of Bacup, Whitworth UDC and part of Ramsbottom UDC) on 1st April 1974 to form the Borough of Rossendale, Haslingden and Rawtenstall had merged their transport undertaking to form Rossendale JTC on 1st April 1968 – they had shared the same GM since the early post-war years (who, at least in latter years, also looked after the Ramsbottom fleet), the Haslingden fleet was small (3 vehicles?), and Haslingden’s main route (Accrington-Bacup) was joint with Rawtenstall.
Just to drift off-thread for a bit: Ramsbottom was involved in the discussions concerning the Rossendale JTC (shared GM, small fleet, and principal routes [both Bury-Rawtenstall] joint with Rawtenstall [and Bury]) but decided to remain independent. Now here’s a question: by this time, 1967/8, I presume planning for the formation of SELNEC PTE would have been well-advanced, and the “original” SELNEC area extended north from Bolton/Bury to include Ramsbottom – so would “the Ministry” have allowed Ramsbottom to throw its lot in with Haslingden and Rawtenstall at that stage? If it had done Ramsbottom would have retained more influence over “its” bus operations – it certainly sought exemption from incorporation into SELNEC, on the grounds that alone amongst the constituents it didn’t penetrate the “central area” – and then in 1974 parts of the SELNEC area to the north of Bolton/Bury were excluded from the GMPTE area.
I presume that the second photograph is post-1968/RJTC – as two (I assume Haslingden and Rawtenstall) crests are shown. The Rawtenstall maroon seems to have survived on Rossendale’s buses in one form or another until the present day – despite last month’s rebranding as “Rosso”.

Philip Rushworth

19/08/13 – 08:59

I always thought that the ‘piece de resistance’ of Leyland vehicles of the time were the aluminium rear hubs. Sometimes it’s these ‘petites touches’ which often make the difference.
And I confess to never have noticed the two crests on the second photo in the past, despite looking at them several times!

Chris Hebbron

19/08/13 – 08:59

Haslingden might not have had the biggest fleet in the world, but it’s size was c.17 vehicles in the early 1960s, down to c.15 at the time of the merger with Rawtenstall.
Considering municipal fleets alone, Ramsbottom, Bedwas & Machen, Llandudno, and Colwyn Bay were all smaller – not sure about Lowestoft, I haven’t checked that one out.

David Call

19/08/13 – 12:21

Also Hartlepool with four vehicles, which were operated on behalf of the Council by BeeLine.

Chris Youhill

20/08/13 – 06:23

David, you are correct: that figure of three has been in my mind for some time – probably from a “Fleetbook” c1980 . . . so Haslingden was a more substantial operator than I imagined. But! 15 vehicles for a 1/3(?) share of Accrington-Bury, plus a few locals around a “not-very-large” town? – there’d have to be some heavily-peaked workings to justify that lot, surely! (If any site is going to find somebody with access to a 1967-8 Haslingden time-table then this must be it . . . )

Philip Rushworth

20/08/13 – 06:24

The aluminium rear hub covers would be supplied by Leyland in the colour specified by the operator and were introduced circa 1951, possibly in response to AEC’s aluminium hub cap, the Leyland “advantage” being the AEC cover was smaller and the AEC badge, which covered most of the cap, was always in AEC house colours.
The inclusion of Ramsbottom in the SELNEC area was always contentious. I moved to Rossendale in 1975 and it has to be said that both Ramsbottom and Rossendale were fast becoming Manchester commuter dormitories at that time and, with the lack of a rail connection and the proximity of Rawtenstall and Ramsbottom to Bury and Bacup and Whitworth to Rochdale, there was an argument for both departments to have been absorbed if not in 1969, then into GMT in 1974 – which makes the 1974 exclusion rather odd.

Phil Blinkhorn

20/08/13 – 14:58

RTC 822mn
XTG 939mn
DTJ 960Emn

As Mentioned in Gerald Walkers text, these photos were taken on the last day of Half Cab operation in Rossendale, November 1982. No 18 (just re-purchased, that day) accompanied the last two PD3’s 39 & 46 for a tour of the area.

Mike Norris

20/08/13 – 18:50

Going back to your most recent post, Philip R, Haslingden’s one trunk route was of course the one from Accrington to Bacup, as you had correctly stated earlier, rather than Bury. (Jointly-operated with both Rawtenstall and Accrington – as, indeed, you appeared to imply at one point).
The present-day equivalent of the Accrington-Bacup service, operated solely by Rossendale (Rosso?), runs every 15 minutes for most of the day, although there is a slight enhancement at AM peak M-F. In 1992-4, when I did a small amount of driving on the route myself, it ran every twelve, so going back to the 1960s I would imagine it would have been at least every ten.
Haslingden’s share of all-day workings would, I think, have been at least three duties (if its share of the route was a third, that is – which is a big presumption), and peak duplication or enhancement was much more common in those days than it is today. Add to that services to/from the Helmshore area, a service to Stone Fold, maybe other minor services which have since disappeared without trace, likely schools/works services, a spare cover of, I imagine, three/four buses, and you can soon account for a fleet size of fifteen. Still, I hope someone can come up with a 1960s Haslingden timetable – or a Rawtenstall or Accrington one, for that matter.

David Call

21/08/13 – 06:40

David, oops! yes, of course I meant Bacup.
I’ve always thought that this style of East Lancs/Neepsend body (pictured) was very well proportioned . . . but like so many before (and after) East Lancs subsequently seemed to lose the plot, producing particularly uninspired boxy d.ds and some frankly oddly-proportioned s.ds (although I’ll forgive their attempts at building coaches for Hyndburn and Halton[?] because of their quirkiness). Whichever bus is in the middle photograph (above) still has some elements of lining-out as late as 1982 – just over 30 years later and it will all be “Rosso”. (Apparently “Rossendalebus” is a bit of a mouthful, hence the rebrand – although passengers seemed to cope with “Rawtenstall Corporation” for long enough!)

Philip Rushworth

22/08/13 – 05:34

Regarding the Accrington-Bacup service, the running distance is 14.4 miles each way. In 1967 I was working in the area for two days a week and regularly driving along the route. This is from memory but the impression remains that Rawtenstall and Haslingden had equal workings and Accrington was the junior partner with fewer vehicles committed. Frequency was enhanced at rush periods when Accrington and Haslingden provided extra vehicles, including short workings from Accrington to both Rawtenstall and Baxenden – the latter a solely Accrington affair. I can’t confirm the standard frequency but a 10 or 12 minute headway makes sense. Bacup terminus would often see two vehicles together for a few minutes.
The date for the withdrawal of half cabs is interesting. It’s hard to believe that nearly 31 years have passed but I wonder if anyone can comment on any use of half cabs on both schools and driver training after that date.

Phil Blinkhorn

07/09/13 – 08:30

A strange feature of the Bacup – Accrington route was that the fares were collected in two sections; it was necessary to rebook at Rawtenstall, even though the bus was working through. I remember one occasion when I travelled from Bacup on an Accrington Guy; on arrival at Rawtenstall we caught up with a Rawtenstall PD2 on the preceding journey on the same service. The conductor couldn’t understand why I chose to stay on the Guy rather than transferring to the other bus to get going sooner!
The present day Rossendale service operates through from Accrington to Rochdale, Rossendale Transport having taken over the former Rochdale service 16 (Rochdale – Bacup), later Selnec service 464. The through service still uses the latter number.
The Rawtenstall fleet was officially known as “Rawtenstall Corporation Motors” – the use of the word “Motors” in the title of a municipal bus fleet was, I believe, unique.

Don McKeown

08/09/13 – 08:30

Wallasey were another corporation to use the term ‘Motors’ in their title, quite prominently so on the older vehicles.

Orla Nutting

01/11/14 – 06:46

This bus is now nearly roadworthy and is about to move under its own power from Taunton to Coventry so that interior restoration can be completed over this winter.

Roger Burdett

19/11/14 – 05:54

Roger has provided an up to date picture of his vehicle since it is now at his site. This picture can be viewed at //www.sct61.org.uk/ra8a

Ken Jones

11/05/16 – 06:35

I used to think the Rawtenstall livery was pretty special. Although as a kid I found the Ramsbottom/Rawtenstall fleets a bit confusing as the livery was similar, it was just the detailing that gave the game away.
Only had one ride on a Haslingden bus, and at the time I had no idea such a fleet existed. My reaction when it rocked up at the stop was (roughly) What’s an Ashton bus doing here? Of course, I should have known better even then, especially as the blue was a different shade.

Brian Wainwright

11/05/16 – 12:54

Like Brian I too thought I had seen an Ashton bus when passing through Haslingden as a naive 10 year old!
As a native of Rochdale I had seen Ashton buses in the town centre but my horizons had still to be broadened to include Haslingden.

David Slater

12/05/16 – 06:09

Brian and David comment on the Ashton blue against Haslingden blue. I’m wandering off topic here, folks, but I hope nobody objects! Clearly, it does depend on the film used, the lighting conditions and the viewer’s eyesight, but I’ve long had the idea that the shade of blue on Birmingham City Transport buses and on Royal Blue coaches was very similar. I know my eyesight isn’t what it should be, but any thoughts, please?

Pete Davies

20/05/16 – 14:21

The vehicle appeared in it’s new livery at the Taunton Running Day on May 8.
I rode on it-remarkably rattle-free and atmospheric.

Roger Burdett

22/05/16 – 07:22

The Haslingden blue was a paler shade than the from 1954 and onwards Ashton blue. Differing film stock does affect colour, as does the age of the original print or slide if not corrected. Having lived in both Ashton and Haslingden I would suggest that the Ashton blue actually got darker over the years or that may have been an optical illusion when the amount of cream under the windows on both decks was reduced.
Turning to the subject of this thread, my view on painting preserved vehicles in liveries they never carried in service has been aired here and elsewhere before but it has to be said that the Scout livery looks fantastic.

Phil Blinkhorn

27/04/17 – 15:06

Roger, I was allowed to drive the bus again by Steve while visiting in October 2016 almost 36 years since I last drove it from Cumbria back to Rawtenstall on the last day of half cab operation in the borough.I felt as though I had last driven the bus the previous week every thing was so familiar to hand etc. This was and still is a fantastic bus to drive I am so pleased to see it back on the road again. The interior restoration is remarkable, well done.

Gerald Walker

29/04/17 – 06:12

It will be running at Winchester May 1 and of course Taunton on May 14.

Roger Burdett

27/07/18 – 06:54

Can anybody help me with a gap in my Rawtenstall Corporation archive. I’m trying to find a view of Leyland TD5c No 33 registration number CTJ 165. Its the only one of this batch that I don’t have.

Gordon Young

29/06/20 – 06:30

Rawtenstall corporation 34 I mentioned in 2013 is looking to be restored been sat a while person who owns it still has all the seats and is complete bus front loading East Lancs bodied currently looking for help or advice with best way to proceed.

Martin Trickett

30/06/20 – 06:41

What help or advice is he after?

Roger Burdett

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

31/01/22 – 06:48

Rawtenstall Bus Shed

My last posting was at the age of 71 and here I am at 82 offering a picture. I am an artist and this painting, completed some time ago, is of Rawtenstall Corporation Motors bus shed in the mid 1950’s. Although the main paint shop was for total repainting [brushes] occasionally a rear corner panel would get a bump and need replacing. Clearly not practical to take the bus out of service. So here am I, far right, on my way to give a coat of red oxide primer. I would have been about 19 yrs old. The painting is a composite from online resources, so bus fans may recognise specific bus photographs on this site. My apologies if I’ve contravened any copyright. The original is on a wall at home and no copies of any kind were made. The other figures were actual men with whom I worked – though not all were painters.
As painters, our least favourite bus builders were East Lancs, who used to paint their buses in a totally open shed. As paint took about 6 hours to dry, an unbelievable finish dismayed us. We used to comment among ourselves that East Lancs seemed to have painted with a sod rather than brushes, the finish was enough to draw blood from a hand when rubbed against it. We also believed that their body shape was rubbish and thrown together. Sorry if these comments offend anybody, but I am now so old that I can say anything I want! So there.

Barrie Petterson

01/02/22 – 09:43

RTC 822 scout

Sunday 26 May 2019 Displayed at the Ribble Vehicle Preservation Trust ‘Morecambe Vintage Bus Day’ which celebrated 100 years of Ribble Motor Services.
RTC 822, owned by Quantock Heritage as part of their hire fleet, is a Leyland bodied Leyland PD2/12 that was new to Rawtenstall Corporation (18) in October 1953. Now preserved in the livery of the erstwhile Scout Motor Services Limited, a company taken over by Ribble in December 1961.

David Slater