Category: Photos

London Transport – Leyland REC – FXT 122 – CR16

London Transport - Leyland REC - FXT 122 - CR16

London Transport
1939
Leyland REC
London Transport B20F

FXT 122 is a Leyland REC with LPTB B20F bodywork. She dates from 1939 and is seen at Longcross, Chobham, on one of those occasions that “Wisley” wasn’t at Wisley. In the Jenkinson listing of 1978, the REC is translated as Rear Engined Cub, which may or may not be correct. According to Ian Smiths London Transport website the CR in the fleet number stood for Cub Rear

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

31/12/15 – 13:00

I believe the vehicle is rear engined and was the first rear engine PCV class.
I thought they were AEC rather than Leyland but would not wager any money on it.
The styling is Q related I think and was the Q single decker the first inclined mid-engined PCV?

Having looked on the internet it seems I would have lost my money as all references seem to be Leyland

Roger Burdett

31/12/15 – 13:02

FXT 110

I’ve been waiting for one of these to come up, here is a shot for the other side.

Mr Anon

01/01/16 – 07:04

Sorry, Roger. Definitely a Leyland. Perhaps even AEC weren’t brave enough!

Pete Davies

01/01/16 – 07:05

What was the gear selection system on these vehicles. Were they manual or semi-automatic. Also, were they one-man operated or crew. Two very interesting photos.

Norman Long

01/01/16 – 10:56

I cadged a brief ride that day at Longcross and I’m sure that the gearbox was a conventional 4-speed. The engine (indirect injection) sounded remarkably like a Perkins P4, with that characteristic combustion tinkle, and it has the same bore and stroke. The rear hubs fooled me: I guessed they must be double-reduction, but apparently they house universal joints at the outer end of each cardan shaft, as the axle is arranged on the de Dion principle, which doesn’t give independent suspension but does cut down unsprung weight by mounting the differential either on the chassis or in unit with the gearbox.
In the late forties on a visit to my aunt and uncle’s at Ealing, Mx, somewhere near Brentford(?) from the window of another bus I saw one of these vehicles, which looked very strange—even slightly creepy—to my 8-or-9-year old eyes.
Fine restoration job, and thanks to the owners for saving another rare bus, full of innovation and individuality.

Ian Thompson

02/01/16 – 06:45

Ian is correct in his description of the CR, which was built at Leyland’s Kingston factory (actually in Ham) which had once produced Sopwith aircraft. The six cylinder indirect injection engine, which had been developed for the later production Cub KPO3, had a capacity of 4.7 litres developing 65 bhp, and it was mounted longitudinally at the rear of the chassis frame. The radiator was also located at the rear. The engine cover inside the vehicle was equipped as a luggage rack. The gearbox was the standard Leyland four speed “silent third” – sliding mesh 1st and 2nd, helical 3rd. Given the limitations conferred upon the passenger capacity of this small vehicle by the engine layout, it was particularly galling for the LPTB to have to adopt a space wasteful front end design similar to that of the contemporary underfloor engined TF (Tiger Flat) Green Line coach model. Had the doorway been located in the logical position ahead of the front axle (as was the 5Q5 version of the AEC Q) then the Metropolitan Police would have insisted upon an open, doorless entrance. It is often stated that the production of the CR was curtailed by the outbreak of war, but this is not the case. Always prone to over ordering, the LPTB originally decided that it required 73 examples in addition to the prototype. Having redone the sums, this was cut to 58, and then to 48. All, except the 1937 prototype, were delivered after the start of the war, the last arriving in December 1939. Many of them saw service in the first year or so of the war, but then went into storage in 1942. Several went into storage in 1939 from new. They began to reappear in 1946 when their original function had largely been usurped by larger buses. Instead they were employed on Central Area routes with conductors to meet the pressures of post war demand, and proved woefully unequal to the task. Breakdowns were frequent and spares in short supply. By the early 1950s they had all gone.

Roger Cox

02/01/16 – 08:50

Another bus spotters’ delight…….and operators’ nightmare! Thx for your usual detailed information, Roger, especially the gearbox information which I’ve always wondered about and which even the London Bus Museum website doesn’t explain. Although Merton Garage had the odd one allocated to it (Sutton didn’t, to my knowledge), I never saw one around my area at all.
The Town & Country Act of 1947 rather ‘did’ for expansion of London (and other cities), where unbridled ‘ribbon’ development stopped, handicapped, in any case, by a lack of building materials. The ‘Northern Heights’ extension of the Tube’s Northern Line, plus some other Tube bits and pieces, were never completed and the CR’s intended feeder services never expanded.

Chris Hebbron

02/01/16 – 17:51

According to the Ian’s Bus Stop website, Merton (AL) did get at least 4 CRs in 1946/7 – including one in green livery – mainly for route 88, and Sutton (A) at least two for the 213 and latterly 93.
The 1 1/2 deck Leyland Cubs designed for the ‘inter station’ route and a number of single deck buses (including some pre-war Green Line coaches) also saw central bus service (on routes with a double deck allocation) around this time.
All were crew operated – the OMO agreement for central buses had by then lapsed, and the practical (and industrial relations) complications of having one or two OMO buses on a crew route would have been a bit too much to handle.
Operationally, I understand that the single deckers only ran on ‘spreadover’ workings (i.e. peak hours only) and I would have thought that if any garage had more buses than crews on any day, the single deckers would have been left in the garage.
Hired in coaches followed in 1947, and new Bristol Ks diverted from ‘Tillings’ companies followed in 1948.

Jon

03/01/16 – 06:11

Correction to my earlier comment! What I glimpsed at Brentford (?) all those years ago was probably not a CR but a TF, whose existence I’d forgotten all about until reading Roger’s reference to it. I recall the mystery bus as being of normal length. As I know practically nothing of what LPTB buses ran on which routes, perhaps someone—Chris H, perhaps—could say whether TFs did or didn’t go through Brentford. The combination of 8.6-litre Leyland engine and epicyclic gearbox in the TF must have made for a very tuneful ride.

Ian Thompson

03/01/16 – 10:43

CR’s and TF’s did have a generic likeness, Ian, and green CR’s did run in Central services and vice versa at times, adding to the confusion. The TF’s ran the Green Line services and you will be interested in that the 701 ran from Gravesend to Ascot, passing through Brentford, from 1946 to 1975, as did the 702 from Gravesend to Sunningdale from 1946 to 1973. I did travel on a few TF’s and they did exude an aura of understated luxury.

Chris Hebbron

06/01/16 – 16:37

Thanks, Chris H, for confirmation that TF passed through Brentford. The vehicle through whose window I snatched that one childhood sighting will have been a trolleybus on the 655 route. Incidentally, my only LT ride (on the long back seat for 5 upstairs where you can look down onto the staircase) was with the same Ealing aunt, and I’m sure the bus said “Hammersmith” on the destination box. Chiming gearbox and snuffly petrol engine that seemed to backfire occasionally; six wheels; straight staircase; what more could any bus-mad kid wish for? Up to what date could that have been? Thanks in advance for any info.

Ian Thompson

07/01/16 – 06:08

Probably 1949.
According to Ken Glazier’s book ‘Routes to Recovery’ (about London Transport in the immediate post war years) the last double deck LTs were withdrawn in January 1950, the last examples running from Upton Park garage on route 40 (which didn’t go anywhere near Hammersmith)
Apart from the last scheduled allocations, a number were spread around garages to supplement the scheduled allocation until late 1949.
From Ian Armstrong’s ‘London Bus Routes’ website –
Hammersmith (Riverside) garage had a fairly substantial allocation of LTs on routes 11 and 17 (London Bridge – Shepherds Bush – no relation to the later north London incarnations of the route number) and 73 until 1949.
Mortlake’s routes 9 and 73 had LTs until 1948 and 1949 respectively (some at Mortlake were initially replaced by green RTs as deliveries had got out of step with needs).

Jon

07/01/16 – 06:10

Many LT’s were based at Leyton, Loughton and Potters Bar Garages, on your side of London, Ian. LT’s mainly left those garages around 1947/48, but were still to be found in decreasing numbers ALL around London until the final deathnell came in February 1950. Even two of the first 150 open-staircase ones survived to the end by then some 20 years old. These were due to replaced in 1942, had the war not intervened. I had a lucky escape from an open-staircase one as a baby. An aunt of mine was climbing the stairs with me in her arms, when she slipped and lost hold of me. A passer-by at the rear of the bus, by chance, caught me in the nick of time. Of all the LT’s, my favourite was the last ones made, in 1931, called Bluebirds. See here: //tinyurl.com/zllt7hk

Chris Hebbron

13/01/16 – 06:02

Thanks, Jon and Chris H, for the information on LT routes and dates.
Very nearly having my school cap blown off on the stairs of open-staircase Titan Reading 36 (RD 777) seemed exciting at the time, but that hardly compares with Chris’s extraordinary rescue!
Thanks also for the Bluebird link. LT741 is a very rationally-designed and handsome vehicle, and the superb interior shots answered all sorts of questions. Pity that no Bluebirds survived, but we can say that of a host of fascinating vehicles that live on only in tantalising photographs.

Ian Thompson

12/04/16 – 06:11

FXT 120

Here is a picture of CR 14, FXT 120, taken at South Croydon during the HCVC rally in May 1972. This bus was delivered in 1939 and went into service in Country Area Green livery at Windsor garage before being withdrawn into store along with the rest of the class by 1942. In 1947 it was overhauled and repainted into Central Area red livery, though the purpose of this expensive exercise appears somewhat elusive as it was only used by Chiswick as a training vehicle during 1948. Just one year later, in 1949, with characteristic profligacy, London Transport then repainted the bus back into Country green for service on rural route 494 between East Grinstead and Oxted via Tandridge, Lingfield and Felcourt, a route that then became a Guy GS operation after the the surviving members of the CR class were withdrawn entirely in 1953. CR14 was selected as an exhibit for the LT Clapham Museum, but, in 1967, it was sold off into private preservation. Although in the photo the vehicle is shown with route 12 destination blinds, the probability of a CR being used on that very busy route must have been remote in the extreme. However, it does seem that some examples of the class may have been used occasionally in the Croydon area for Relief duties on route 68 (South Croydon – Chalk Farm).

Roger Cox

30/08/16 – 06:46

I can confirm that red CR buses were indeed used on the 68 route. I used to often see “two of them” (numbers unknown) parked at Beulah Hill, junction with Spa Hill (Norwood) on my way to secondary school. I’ve no idea why there was need for two of them. My intelligent guess is that this would have been in the late 40s or very early 50s.

Derek

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

20/09/16 – 07:06

Among the first rear engined buses were the SOS REC type built by The Birmingham & Midland Motor Omnibus Company, better known as Midland Red in 1935. The company didn’t find them successful and rebuilt them with underfloor engines.

Mr Anon

21/09/16 – 05:49

Since the CR vehicles were based on the Leyland REC chassis, Ian, was there any connexion between the SOS REC’s and Leyland’s, or was it merely a coincidence of titling?
Could someone come up with more information on BMMO’s SOS REC’s?

Chris Hebbron

22/09/16 – 07:12

Chris, there are some details of the SOS RECs on
//MidlandRed.net
There were four of them fitted with transverse mounted petrol engines so I think only the name was the same.

Gary Thomas

Middlesbrough Corporation – Leyland Panther Cub – DXG 401D – 1

Middlesbrough Corporation - Leyland Panther Cub - DXG 401D - 1

Middlesbrough Corporation
1966
Leyland Panther Cub
Northern Counties B44F

This bus must of been brand new when I took this picture it certainly looks that way. If I remember correctly Middlesbrough Corporation used route letters rather than route numbers which was quite novel. I think they only had 2 single deckers in there fleet this one and its sister which was fleet no 2.

I was in the depot at the time this one was delivered. It was put in the paint shop. It smelt lovely. I remember it like yesterday. It and No 2 ran the S route to Seamer.

Chris Johnson

18/07/11 – 17:15

Unhappy memories of this bus! When I was about 14 I used to visit a friend in Newby and get the ‘S’ home, getting off at Kirby School. One Saturday Roman Road was closed so the route was diverted down Orchard Road and The Avenue, then up St Barnabas Road to re-join Roman Road/Ayresome Green Lane. Because the bus stop by the Conservative Club in Orchard Road was closer to home I thought I’d get off there, but the miserable driver wouldn’t stop as it wasn’t a normal stop, and instead took me all the way up to the General Hospital before he’d let me off, giving me a really long walk home. I never trusted bus drivers after that!

John Habgood

Stockton Corporation – Leyland Panther Cub – GUP 501C – S1

Stockton Corporation Leyland Panther

Stockton-on-Tees Corporation
1965
Leyland Panther Cub PSRC1/1
Park Royal B43D

Not the best shot in the world I think it was the first shot on the film and suffered from a touch of light getting into the cassette. Anyway there are not many shots of duel entrance vehicles on site so I think it is worth showing. The engine on the Panther was positioned horizontally under the floor at the rear and inline with the chassis as opposed to the Atlantean which had a transverse vertically mounted engine. As can be seen in the above shot the seats behind the centre door had to be raised to go over the rear axel and engine compartment. But having the engine at the rear did as can be seen enable it to have a very low step into the vehicle all though there is a step up immediately behind the driver. The coach version of the Panther had a one level raised floor but with having the engine at the rear it meant it had 120 cubic foot (3·4 cu.m.) underfloor storage for suitcases and the like. The engine was the reliable Leyland O.600 six cylinder diesel developing 125 b.h.p. in the bus chassis and 130 b.h.p. in coaches with a four speed epicycle gearbox with fingertip electric change and air suspension was offered as an option.

———

I know you are not meaning to mislead, but you haven’t mentioned that the Panther Cub (as opposed to the Panther) had the well regarded, but noisy, 0.400 engine.
This was the final version of the 0.300/0.350/0.375 Comet/Tiger Cub engine. The 0.400 was better known in the Bedford VAL/VAM14 and Bristol LH applications. It was necessary to fit this compact unit to the Panther Cub as it has a shorter rear overhang than the Panther.
The power output, at 125 b.h.p, was the same as the 0.600 but the torque (pulling power) and therefore potential life span was less.

David Oldfield

Brighton Corporation – Leyland Panther Cub – NUF 137G – 37

Brighton Corporation - Leyland Panther Cub - NUF 137G - 37

Brighton Corporation
1968
Leyland Panther Cub PSRC1/1
Strachans B??D

This photo shows No 37 one of Brighton Corporation’s three Leyland Panther Cubs No’s 36-38 registration NUF 136-138G with Strachans B–D bodywork, listed on some other sites as B43F which is obviously incorrect as it can clearly be seen to have a centre exit. A further four with Marshall B43F bodies followed on as No’s 39-42 registration NUF 139-142G so maybe 36-38 were to the same layout. The Panther Cub was a fairly rare beast as less than a hundred were built in total and of those only seven had Strachans bodies three for Thomas Bros of South Wales and a demonstrator YTB 771D which was bought by Eastbourne Corporation some time after being used by them as transport for delegates at the 1967 MPTA conference held in the town (Municipal Passenger Transport Association). I worked for Eastbourne Corporation at that time and drove YTB both during the conference and after it was bought by them and numbered 92 and always found it to be a pleasant lively vehicle to drive if a bit raucous.
The manager at that time Mr R. R Davies said the interior Formica panelling pattern looked like a coffee bar.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave

06/04/14 – 11:29

The Panthers we had at Percy Main were the B48D Marshall Camair bodied PSRU1A1R version, and they too had somewhat garish interiors. Whoever designed the cab layout obviously never had to drive one, if they did they must have been a contortionist. Being a semi auto with no clutch pedal, the designer must have been under the impression that they would only be driven by drivers who didn’t have a left leg. The gearchange was positioned in such a way that it was almost impossible to get into or out of the dammed thing unless you had supreme manoeuvring skills, and once in you couldn’t get comfortable as you had nowhere to put your left leg.

Ronnie Hoye

06/04/14 – 18:23

I know just what you mean Ronnie. At Halifax we had three ex-Yorkshire Traction Marshall-bodied Leopard PSU4’s which had exactly the same layout. In order to get installed into the cab seat I used to have to climb onto, then over it into the tight space at the other side with both legs, sit down then swivel anticlockwise into position. Then, unless you wound the seat almost down into the floor, your upper legs were jammed tight under the large steering wheel rim, which would rub against them as you steered. Then of course you had to go through the reverse of all that procedure when you came to get out.
Having said all that, though cab ergonomics have improved a bit since then, I honestly can’t say that I’m ever comfortable in any of today’s buses, and nearly always finish a stint in one with pains in my back and legs.

John Stringer

06/04/14 – 18:23

I think all 7 were dual door originally. Someone else may know whether they were subsequently rebuilt as single, as happened in many fleets

John Carr

07/04/14 – 12:46

I have happy memories of travelling to school on Manchester Corporation’s Panther Cubs on Middleton local service 142. Queens Road Depot had nos. 72/74/76/78 and 80 (BND 872C etc) and any one of these would appear each morning on the 142; far more interesting than travelling on the school bus, which was always a PD2. The performance was impressively lively; I remember that one driver always started in 3rd gear, and another started in 2nd but then went straight to 4th.
I don’t know about the driving position causing problems, Manchester’s Panther Cubs had the miniature gear lever attached to the steering column. However the front platform doors were operated by the driver’s left foot (the centre exit doors being opened by a sixth position on the gear lever), I can’t remember seeing any of them struggle to reach the door pedal.

Don McKeown

07/04/14 – 15:16

I think your drivers were trying to wreck the gearbox as they disliked the Panther Cubs. I was once on a Halifax Dennis Loline III fitted with a 5 speed semi-auto gearbox and the driver started from each stop in 3rd gear, thinking it was 2nd as on a Fleetline. Giving plenty of body vibration! bus and passengers alike!

Geoff S

08/04/14 – 07:51

5-speed semi-autos could be a problem in fleets that also had 4-speed ones. Bristol Omnibus had 4-speed RELL buses and 5-speed RELH coaches and DPs. When the RELHs were cascaded to bus use, the drivers treated gears 2,3,4&5 exactly like 1,2,3&4 on the RELLs, changing up far too early and never letting the engine get into its stride. They must have wondered why these former “express” vehicles were so much more sluggish than the local ones!

Peter Williamson

10/04/14 – 07:38

NUF 136G
NUF 137G

Here are two more pictures from 1970 of the Brighton Corporation Strachans bodied Panther Cubs. 36, NUF 136G is seen at Preston Park, with the impressive railway viaduct behind it, and 37, NUF 137 is in Old Steine, Brighton.

NUF 141G

The later Marshall bodied version is represented here by 41, NUF 141G heading north on the A23 towards Preston Drove, with an array of British built cars in the background – those were the days!

Roger Cox

31/12/16 – 17:09

All of the Panther Cubs for Brighton were dual door from new & remained as such throughout their short lives. They were all withdrawn by 1975. They had been Brighton Corporations first single deckers & it would be 1983 before any more arrived.

Malcolm Pelling

Manchester Corporation – Panther Cub – BND 872C – 72

BND 872C

Manchester Corporation
1965
Leyland Panther Cub PSRC1/1
Park Royal B43D

Delivered in April 1965 and photographed in June 1970 following the formation of Selnec is Manchester Corporation Panther Cub No 72, BND 872C. The Panther Cub was a shortened version of the Panther, the length being reduced from 36ft. to 33ft. 6ins. on an 18ft. 6ins wheelbase. With the 6.5 litre Leyland O400H engine instead of the Panther’s 9.8 litre O600H, the Panther Cub proved to be somewhat underpowered. The limited appeal of the model resulted in its being offered only from 1964 to 1968 during which 94 examples were built, though the same basic chassis with more powerful AEC engines was more successful as the AEC Swift. Manchester took eight Panther Cubs, BND 863C- 880C, Nos. 63 to 80, with Park Royal B43D bodywork, though the seating capacity was later altered on No. 71 to B36D and on No. 74 to B42D. The Corporation tried to improve the engine output on some of these buses by experimenting with turbocharging, not entirely successfully. The picture above is of additional interest in that the fleet number of BND 872C is displayed as 27 rather than 72. Was this just an inadvertent “numerical spoonerism” by the body shop?

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

09/02/20 – 08:31

The legal lettering on a Southampton Atlantean mentioned, for some odd reason, PROTSWOOD Road rather than the correct PORTSWOOD. I saw in Stubbington on one occasion a road marking for GOPSROT, and there is a hotel in Southampton which ‘failed’ some years ago. The rot seems to have set in after the opening of a brasserie, spelled incorrectly after one has to assume the sign writer was distracted by the presence of a lap-dancing club opposite. Who knows what distractions the fellow applying 27 had?

Pete Davies

09/02/20 – 10:22

The fleet number is correct – it had been renumbered not long before when Manchester renumbered their single-deckers from 46 upwards as 1 upwards (so fleet numbers were reduced by 45). The whole batch of Panther Cubs totalled twenty with the original pair new as 61/62 (ANF 161/2B).

David Beilby

10/02/20 – 06:47

CPPTD made a success of our Panther Cubs, mainly because the city is mostly dead flat. One survives.

Dave French

10/02/20 – 06:48

Thanks for the corrections, David. I overlooked the original two. I did not know that these buses had been renumbered – Peter Gould’s LTHL listings do not record this. Apologies also for the typo in my copy. Eight should read eighteen.

Roger Cox

10/02/20 – 06:50

I didn’t know about that renumbering, and evidently I’m not alone, as Peter Gould’s fleet history in the Transport History Library says that 61-80, 81-99 and 101-110 passed to SELNEC retaining the same fleet numbers. I wonder, did the missing Panther 100 (destroyed by fire at MCW before delivery) result in a missing 55, or were 101-110 reduced by 46 instead of 45?

Peter Williamson

10/02/20 – 11:12

I suppose Portsmouth (CPPTD) could be described as making more of a success of the Panther Cub, but they were still rather short-lived compared with more traditional vehicles. Typically, the PD2s and PDR1 Atlanteans worked for around 16 years, those converted to open-top even longer. But of the 26 Panther Cubs, nine went in 1977, at just ten years old. Four more went in 1979/80. The remaining 13 were withdrawn in 1981, which may have been life-expired withdrawals, but was also influenced by the results of the then-recent MAP project. The result of that saw a “rationalisation” of services, and saw all 14 of the five-year old Leyland Nationals sold as well! The Panther Cubs did look smart when new in their traditional CPPTD livery, but I did not like the eventual transformation to an almost all-white scheme with just a red line. I wonder whether drivers, mechanics, etc saw them as a “success”?

Mr Anon One

10/02/20 – 11:13

It was SELNEC which renumbered the ex Manchester single deckers.

Mr Anon Two

11/02/20 – 06:53

To add to the comments from Mr Anon Two, according to the P.S.V. Circle SELNEC Fleet History (PC7), the vehicles transferred to SELNEC under their old numbers on 1st November 1969, and the fleet renumbering was introduced in March 1970.
Peter W asks about the Panther Cubs and the Panthers. 61-99 became 16-54, and 101-110 became 55-64.

John Kaye

11/02/20 – 06:55

SELNEC 55 was GND 101E, so there was no gap in the new numbers for the missing GND 100E.

Dave Farrier

11/02/20 – 16:26

Thanks everyone for clarification. I hadn’t noticed the date of the photo, and I was fooled by the apparent survival of the “City of Manchester” fleet name, though I must say whatever is above it doesn’t look much like the city coat of arms.

Peter Williamson

12/02/20 – 16:46

Did the registration number GND 100E signify the bus was fitted with a Ford side valve engine? If so, it is not surprising that it was missing, although not in the accepted sense of the word. Try changing the plugs!

Mr Anon Three

13/02/20 – 06:06

72/4/6/8/80 were allocated to Queens Road Depot from new. I used to travel to school on them sometimes on service no 142. There was one regular driver who always started in third gear, another started in second then slammed it into fourth without a pause. I always thought they were lively performers.
I believe 61-70 had the turbocharged engine. Some if not all of these had machines to cancel prepaid tickets which were bought in books of ten. These ten also had lever controls for the exit door, while 71-80 had the exit door controlled by an extra position on the gear lever, as later became standard on the Mancunians. All had the front door controlled by a foot control.

Don McKeown

15/02/20 – 06:31

It was 71-80 that had the turbochargers, but they were troublesome and usually disconnected. I too thought the Panther Cubs were lively performers, as long as the revs were kept up. I’m quite surprised at the widespread view that they were underpowered.

Peter Williamson

East Yorkshire – Leyland Panther – GAT 801D – 801

East Yorkshire Leyland Panther

East Yorkshire Motor Services
1966
Leyland Panther PSUR1/2R
Marshall B49F

A pair of Panthers owned by East Yorkshire with Marshall bodywork. If you click on Daimler or Halifax Corporation in the side navigation and scroll down to the Daimler Roadliner you can see the similarity of the Marshall bodywork somehow the Daimler has one more seat. The Panther was available with either a low or high frame chassis these two by the height of the seats have the high frame version.

Even though this pair of Panthers may be a bit modern for some, you surely must admit that glorious dark blue and primrose livery sets them off a treat. It’s a shame Peter Shipp, respected owner of EYMS, still can’t be persuaded to return his buses to this stylish scheme, smart as the present cream and dark red may be.

Brendan Smith

I do so agree. Blue, and cream, are such neglected shades. You can’t beat EYMS indigo and cream.

David Oldfield

I work for EYMS and totally agree that the blue livery looks much nicer than the red and cream.
If you look at the new Wrightbus which has been repainted into the old livery you will see that it looks great.

Terry Malloy

Absolutely! The old EYMS indigo and primrose was something very special. Living in York as a kid, I was used to seeing West Yorkshire’s and United’s standard Tilling red, the occasional green and cream of West Riding and Reliance, as well as York Pullman’s very smart magenta, yellow and cream. But EYMS livery was quite outstanding; just the sight of it made one wish to get on board.  As Terry Malloy says, it was great. How about starting a petition to Mr Shipp?

Roy Burke

Odd that EYMS bought the PSUR1/2 coach chassis (straight frame) for these buses – rather than the PSUR1/1 low floor bus chassis.

Peter G Greaves

I must agree, concerning the Indigo & Primrose traditional livery, as this was the livery that I grew up with, taking it for granted, until the advent of NBC red (ugh!), however I do think that the Burgundy & Primrose is as good (if not better..)

Keith Easton

Burgundy and Primrose is excellent – but why not Indigo? Rather like my post at Rawthenstall PD2 about Sheffield trying green out. There was nothing wrong with the green – it just wasn’t cream and blue.

David Oldfield

Agreed David, but I’m an Aries, a fire sign, so I prefer shades of red, but indigo isn’t.
Just an afterthought… I wonder what PD1A number 509 (JRH 982) which was painted in the experimental purple and primrose livery, which it received in the early 1950’s, actually looked like. I’ve seen black & white photos, but never any colour ones.

Keith Easton

Keith, the purple and primrose PD1 looked absolutely awful – it remains in the memory still – an thankfully cut no ice. It would have been bad with any operator but the contrast with the proud and dignified EYMS image was distressing to say the least. The large fleet of EYMS PD1s really were the tops for me, and carried an interesting departure from the usual Roe polished wooden window surrounds, having mid blue gloss paint finish instead – equally pleasing. I was in Bridlington when the changeover from Williamson’s fascinating and well loved vehicles on their two town services gave way to the EYMS PD1s and smartly uniformed staff with metal “EYMS” badges on the lapels – a week of two equally interesting extremes that was, and I was sad and glad at the same time to witness it.

Chris Youhill

By a weird coincidence this is the same vehicle referred to in my article on Lower Mosley Street Bus Station. It really stood out amid all the red vehicles of NWRCC, Ribble, etc. Made my day!

Neville Mercer

29/01/12 – 16:58

Yes I agree the blue livery would suit modern day EYMS vehicles.I remember these working into Leeds on the Yorkshire Coast services when wellington street was a riot of colour. Did they make it into the so called NBC blue?

Tony Greig

13/02/12 – 07:32

These Marshall bodied Panthers were some of the most elegant vehicles in the EY fleet, and it is a shame that none exist in preservation. To me, as with the other correspondents in this article, indigo and primrose was and always will be the true EY livery. I agree that it would be good to have todays fleet returned to traditional livery. As far as I know, there are no colour pics of JRH 982 in existence.

John Eggleton

Manchester Corporation – Leyland Panther – GND 87E – 87

Manchester Corporation Leyland Panther

Manchester City Transport
1967
Leyland Panther PSUR1/1
MCW B40D

It may seem barely credible now, but in the early 1960s Manchester Corporation was planning a future without double-deckers. They had realised (possibly before anyone else) that the days of the bus conductor were numbered, but at that time only a single-decker could be operated legally without one. As a preliminary step towards total conversion to single deck one-man operation (as it then was), the Corporation carried out strategic experiments in new methods of fare collection, initially using 20 Park Royal-bodied Panther Cubs, a model created by Leyland at Manchester’s request. These were to have been followed by 30 full-grown Panthers with MCW bodies, but in the event only 29 of these were delivered. The missing Panther had been destroyed by fire at the body builders and was not replaced, because by then it was 1967 and the world had changed significantly. Conductorless operation of double-deckers was now imminent, and the plan for an all single-deck fleet was consigned to oblivion.
Although the Panthers rapidly faded from prominence, and were never very well known to enthusiasts, I was personally very fond of them. They were among the first Manchester buses to revert to red interiors after a dozen years of drab and incongruous green, and for me they produced some of the most pure and thrilling Leyland sound effects of all time.
In this April 1968 photo, Panther no. 87 (GND 87E) waits at the Brookdale Park (Newton Heath) terminus of route 7, a rather rambling inter-suburban service on the north side of the city, which in earlier years had taken me to school by Leyland PD2.

Photograph and copy contributed by Peter Williamson

Thanks for showing the photo above, it is becoming more impossible as time goes by to get bus photos, in service of Manchester corporation transport, mainly in the 1950/1960s periods, ie such buses as Crossley, Leyland Titan TD5s etc. Also for many years I have failed in obtaining copies, or even photocopies of Manchester fleet list/allocation lists for years 1946 to 1959, 1952 to 1953 and 1961, makes me wonder if I will ever get them as I am getting on in years now.
Can anyone help please.

Michael Cregeen

Answer for Michael Cregeen, regarding Manchester Corporation fleet list.
Try this link and scroll down to item 88, which lists the Manchester tram, trolleybus and bus fleets, the latter divided into (1) 1906-35, (2) 1936-50, (3) 1951-69. Sorry, can’t help with the photographs. Finally, I don’t want to be personal, but Cregeen sounds like a Manx name. I remember a school holiday to the IOM in 1960, and we were transported around the island on a pair of Bedford coaches from Cregeens of Port Erin (an OB and an SB I think).
Any relation?

Stephen Ford

My thanks to Stephen for his very helpful answer but the type of Manchester fleet lists I am trying to get, or photocopies will do show the bus fleet and depot allocations rather than just fleet. These where published by Manchester Corporation Transport themselves. The years I cannot get are 1946 to 1950, 1952 to 1953 and 1961. Also selnec similar lists from 1971 to 1975.
Thanks in hope.

Michael Cregeen.

Michael, if you don’t mind black and white, Jaspers has 115 images with prints for sale, buses ranging from 2029 to 4644, at this link.

Peter Williamson

Something has confused me for many years. When 4490, 4500, 4509 were transferred from Birchfields Road to Northenden, this was odd in itself, but as far as I am aware they where never used by Northenden on all day service, they were used only on part day and works duty. This despite the rest at Birchfields being out all day. Also similar when 4550-4559 went from Birchfields to Northenden, they where used on part day also, and yet the rest of the batch including a few which went to Princes Road where out all day on the Flixton services. Never got to the bottom of this does anyone know anything?

Also after over 30 years of trying I still cannot get my hands on MCTD fleetlist/allocation lists for the years 1946-1950, 1953 and 1961, even photocopies would do. As regarding selnec/gmt ones from 1971 onwards I give up can anyone help please?

I have not got a computer, I use a library internet connection so not always available.

Michael Cregeen

Michael, I am interested in your question about the transferred Daimlers, but you do not say when the transfers took place. If it was well into the Fleetline era, then it may have been for capacity reasons. A few other facts that may be relevant:
1.  Only about one-third of the Manchester fleet, mainly the newest third, was used on all-day duties, and the exact proportion would be different at different depots.
2.  The five-cylinder Daimlers, which included 4490-4509, couldn’t keep up with the traffic on Princess Road/Parkway, which was Northenden’s main radial thoroughfare.
3.  Industrial relations were handled separately at each depot, and Northenden was known as the most militant.

Peter Williamson

I have received an email from The Museum of Transport Greater Manchester giving contact details and inviting Michael to get in touch with their Archives department and they feel sure they can help him with his search for MCTD fleet lists. Hopefully Michael will let us know how he goes on.

Peter

Still cannot obtain the Manchester Corporation fleet/allocation lists for years 1946-1950,1952,1953,1961, nobody at The Museum of Transport Greater Manchester ever replies to my correspondence, but living in hope someone can send these, or photocopies one day.

Michael Cregeen 09/10

Please read Michaels comment above first

I do wish people would not promise to do something that they have no intention of doing. I know that the people behind the scenes at the museum are volunteers but the Director who wrote to me 04/03/2010 – 23:27 (name withheld) promised that it would be no problem, six months is a long time to wait for an acknowledgement to a request for information and I do not think for one moment that it is the only request they have had from Michael.

Peter 

Monday September 5th 1966 when Sunderland Corporation Transport bought 33 Leyland Panther Buses accepting tokens for 2d-9d every 10 journeys.
The Bus Driver for selling bus tokens on FBR 53D is the late Norman Burlison from day one.
Types of buses including Daimler Roadliners, AEC Swifts, Bristol RE’s and Daimler Fleetlines from the sixties.
I will never forget the Leyland Panther Buses from the Sunderland Corporation Transport.

Terry Christie

In 1971 3 ex Selnec Panthers came to Ireland, one of those being GND 87E a few years later they were sold back to Cranes & Commercials in Southampton and then exported to Australia.

Sean

I just came across these articles whilst looking round the net. I remember the Daimler vehicles in use. I started at Queens Road depot in 64 as a guard then becoming a driver in 69. The comments about the Daimlers lack of pace was certainly true. If we were working the 53, (the banana route). It be good to have a Princess Road vehicle in front, every 3 Min’s on the timetable. We would have caught up with their Daimler by the time we got to Bradford Cemetery. We occasionally had Daimlers with a pre-selector gearbox at Queens Road. They had the habit of the selector pedal jumping out. It took a lot of effort to get it back in again. One driver, who was an ex jockey, was unable to get moving again, no matter how his 8 stone tried. Withy Grove at the junction of High Street was gridlocked till another driver came to his aid. We also had some modern, then, Daimlers with crash gears, they had nice comfortable interiors; but slow. We used them on the 4 service, this was the nearest thing we had to a rural bus service, Cannon St. to Bamford via Heaton Park and Heywood. They were suited to the steadier pace required. I never drove one, they had gone before I became a driver but those old pre-selectors, it took some thinking about to plan which gear you wanted next.
The pictures of the single deckers on the 7 service also stirs memories. They tried a system on the no. 7 and 123 services; Minimax. The fare was 6d for any distance, 3d half. The passenger had to put his sixpence in to operate a turnstile to travel; the left hand turnstile allowed the driver to let children or passes to use their threepence to get on. People didn’t have the correct coins, it was bound to fail, that and the centre exit.

Peter Furnival

04/05/2012 07:34

I found this site quite by accident and really find it very interesting. I previously wrote that I was a conductor and driver at Birchfields road from 1959 to 1978, and that I found the Leyland 3400’s a pleasure to drive. Does anyone know what happened to 3427? If it possibly made preservation, or went the same final route of so many more golden oldies. She had a real ‘throaty’ rumble from her exhaust, and made the hair on the back of my neck tingle and I always drove with the small window in the driver’s door open!

Bill Parkinson

05/09/12 – 06:57

I remember being quite excited by these Manchester Panthers when new, they looked so modern at the time in their cream and red livery. The turnstile arrangement inside them was less popular though. Among other things it had an unfortunate habit of catching and lifting the then fashionable miniskirts, to the serious embarrassment of the wearer. I particularly remember them on the 123, and on the 67X which ran (I think Saturdays Only) from Belle Vue to Clayton Bridge or Newton Heath. They also sometimes popped up on the 73, Ryder Brow Circular, traditionally a route that threw up interesting buses.

Brian Wainwright

15/10/12 – 07:51

Re the interiors of the Panthers, the first vehicles to revert to red interiors were the 1965 batch of Atlanteans. The following batches of Atlanteans and Fleetlines had red and black interiors.
The green and beige scheme adopted from 1953 was based on the RT scheme of London Transport. When the cost and weight of the wood and paint interiors on the post war Standards had to be replaced on what were bodybuilders’ designs, rather than specific Manchester designs, Albert Neal decided that he could both save cost and offer his passengers a brighter interior.

Phil Blinkhorn

15/10/12 – 10:55

The Panthers also turned up on the 201 service from Woodhouse Lane to Sale Moor soon after the introduction of the route, replacing Panther Cubs. This service was technically “joint” with North Western (due to the area agreement which made everywhere to the west of the A56 in Sale the territory of NWRCC), but as far as I know the single vehicle required was always supplied by MCTD.

Neville Mercer

16/10/12 – 05:25

It is recorded in “The Manchester Bus” (Eyre and Heaps) that the whole of the 1965 batch of Atlanteans (3721-3792) had red interiors, but it was not so. The early ones had grey interiors with the usual green seats downstairs and tan upstairs. This scheme can be seen on the preserved Panther Cub. Round about 3760 there were a couple of experimental schemes (including some nasty black and yellow moquette as I recall) and the red started after that.

Peter Williamson

16/10/12 – 11:48

As I recall, MCTD had very few single deckers during the 50’s and 60’s….The only ones I can remember seeing in the southern parts of the city were those which operated the 22 route from Levenshulme, opposite the McVities biscuit factory, to (was it?) Eccles, a fairly long route of maybe 10 to 15 miles but with a low bridge just a couple of hundred yards from the Levenshulme terminus, hence the single deckers….In hindsight, it now seems a bit odd to have had a separate fleet for the sake of a few hundred yards of road, so maybe they were used elsewhere on the network although I don’t remember seeing them anywhere else….I can’t remember exactly what make/type these were, I think that they were Leylands, but I have in my memory that they were fairly odd looking with a rear entrance….Or maybe after so many years I’m confusing them with the rear entrance Albions (or was it, even, Atkinsons ?) that NWRCC used to operate – and if I had a photo of one of those grotesque NWRCC single deckers which I could upload, I’d certainly nominate these for the Ugly Bus Ball.
But I digress….Does anyone have any more info, background, photo or links to these MCTD single deckers, please ?

Stuart C

16/10/12 – 13:10

Glory Days: Manchester and Salford – Eyre/Heaps (Ian Allan) might help. Lots of good photos and a comprehensive fleet list for both authorities up to the formation of SELNEC.

David Oldfield

16/10/12 – 16:49

A number of points. Re the 1965 Atlanteans, Peter is right, I’d forgotten about the grey scheme. I’m guessing but the change over – and the other “experiments” – may have been due to Ralph Bennett’s arrival.
Stuart asks about the single deckers.
The 22 ran from Levenshulme Lloyd Rd just the Manchester side of the Stockport boundary opposite McVities to Eccles. The route was shared with North Western and at one time they used their Atkinsons with a similar rear entrance layout to the MCTD Royal Tigers. As with other routes shared with MCTD, NWRCC’s appearances could be patchy.
There were in fact two bridges on the route. The one at Levenshulme was eventually dealt with as part of the electrification scheme from Manchester to London. The other was the Bridgewater Canal bridge at Eccles and this still exists. Once the railway bridge had been dealt with a decision was taken to alternate double and single deck working, the double deckers avoiding the canal bridge by continuing parallel to the canal and gaining Eccles by a tight turn onto the Eccles-Irlam Rd. Drivers found themselves one day in charge of singles, on other days Parrs Wood’s PD2s. This led to grief.
Burlingham bodied PD2 3494 was piloted under the canal bridge and was pretty much destroyed. The chassis was fine however so the body from 1953 PD2 3363 was placed on the chassis of 3494 and that number was retained. //www.flickr.com/photos/dg11061959/5603990371/
The 22 wasn’t the only route. North Western’s 31A ran from Bramhall to Manchester via Cheadle and Withington. Virtually taken over by Manchester apart from legions of NWRCC duplicates during the morning rush hour and far fewer in the evening (due to the morning rush hour coinciding with school travel) the route was under the London line at Cheadle Hulme and this also had restricted headroom.
There were many other short feeder routes around the system in Wythenshawe, Middleton, Clayton, Belle Vue, Failsworth and Denton as well as the shortest of them all, the 129 from Millgate Lane to Didsbury village. None of these required double deckers.
In addition Manchester had a private hire requirement as well as needing to supplement the half deckers on the airport service.
A few more observations.
In 1953 Manchester received 18 Royal Tigers with rear entrances, 4 with front entrances and 2 with centre entrances.
In 1957 Albert Neal wanted to buy new front entrance Tiger Cubs but was thwarted by his Committee. Eventually he had to make do with 6 Seddon bodied Albion Aberdonians which he used as little as possible and they were withdrawn in 1968 having spent much of their time in the shadows at the rear of Parrs Wood depot.
He got his Cubs in 1961, 5 bodied by Park Royal followed by 10 in 1962 in a very attractive airport livery of two tone blue divided by a silver band. These were split between front entrance and dual door versions, both appearing in all day service on stage carriage routes.
1964 saw the arrival of the Park Royal Panther Cubs followed in 1967 by the Panthers.

Phil Blinkhorn

16/10/12 – 17:30

In 1972/73 I worked at the SELNEC Central’s North West Area Schedules Department at Frederick Road Depot, Salford, which compiled the schedules and rotas for the two ex-Salford Depots at Frederick Road and Weaste, and for the ex-MCTD Depot at Queens Road.
Queens Road had some of these Panthers to work the 147 Cannon Street to Hollinwood via Higher Blackley, due to a low bridge just before the terminus at Hollinwood.
Weaste had some to work the 3 and 5 services from Salford (Greengates) to Weaste Lane and Peel Green respectively – the 5 having to pass under a very low bridge under the Bridgewater Canal.
Frederick Road also used them on the 4 Prestwich to Simister, which was infrequent and therefore probably interworked with other routes, but I can’t now remember which.

GND 101E_lr

I took this photo of GND 101E in the yard at Frederick Road Depot at the time. I remember that whilst not as bad as the Panther Cubs – which had all gone by this time – these were still notoriously unreliable with a strong propensity towards catching fire.

John Stringer

17/10/12 – 08:10

David, Phil & John….Many Thanks for the tips and the information….I’d forgotten about the bridge at the other end of the route, but don’t remember if this was also just few hundred yards from the terminus.
I also received an e-mail from a friend a few minutes ago which adds on to Phil’s notes above – that the memory isn’t as bad as I feared and that the MCTD Leylands did, indeed, have a rear entrance….Strange for an underfloor engined single decker, no ??
And as I don’t know too much about copyright law, I won’t post here a picture of the famous NWRCC Atkinsons (yes, it wasn’t Albions) that he has sent to me, but here’s a link www.sct61.org.uk. They say that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so I suppose ugliness is as well, and I can only say that my own eyes have these Atkinsons right up there as candidates….Thanks again.

Stuart C

17/10/12 – 08:15

Stuart, there’s a photo of a Manchester Royal Tiger on the 22 here: www.flickr.com

Peter Williamson

17/10/12 – 17:46

Rear entrance underfloor engined singles weren’t uncommon. Don’t forget OMO was still years away when these vehicles were ordered and the problems of driver distraction, union doubts about the driver controlling passenger access and egress existed in many urban areas where frequent stops were common. Also there was the problem of siting of stops relative to junctions where a rear entrance single worked fine and a front entrance would have caused an obstruction.
In London LT had plenty of red bus RFs but the Police wouldn’t allow them to have doors for years as it placed a burden on the driver and the door design at the time was deemed to limit visibility.
In the cases of MCTD and NWRCC, there was also a case of tradition and a slight reluctance to embrace a relatively untried idea.

Phil Blinkhorn

25/10/12 – 15:59

Re MCTD single deckers in the ’50’s. I seem to remember that the 97 to Platt Lane also was operated by Leyland single deckers for many years ….. presumably out of Princes Rd.
As for those Aberdonians, the damn things wound up on the rush hour express 130 from East Didsbury to Piccadilly once the Crossley’s had been withdrawn.

Orla Nutting

26/10/12 – 06:56

Orla, I seem to remember they used to leak as well as rattling a great deal

Phil Blinkhorn

16/12/12 – 07:25

Three, or possibly four, of the Aberdonians were transferred to Queens Road shortly before the end of their (Manchester) lives in order to work the 56 service which had been re-converted back to single-deck operation after a lengthy period of double-deck (PD1) service.
I liked them and remember them with affection and nostalgia and if they rattled they were by no means unique in the Manchester fleet on that account.
I always thought that they seemed far more at home on the 56 than in the exclusive, rarefied territory of Bramhall on the 31.

Johnny MacBrown

17/12/12 – 07:54

Manchester’s Aberdonians suffered from substandard bodywork (necessitated by time constraints following the Transport Committee’s rejection of the bid for Tiger Cubs), but I’ve always had a soft spot for the Aberdonian as a chassis. It was mechanically similar to the Tiger Cub but both quieter and livelier (the latter due to lower weight). Its main problem was that it was marketed, and often purchased, as a cheaper alternative to the Tiger Cub, but was nowhere near as rugged. It certainly wasn’t up to intensive city operation, but I’m pleased to hear that some of Manchester’s finally found a niche. I would imagine them to be in their element pottering around Higher Blackley on the 56.

Peter Williamson

24/05/15 – 07:37

Regarding rear entrance underfloor buses. The standard North Western joke was that if someone fell off the step of a rear entrance bus, the following vehicle ran them over, not the rear wheels of your own bus!

Bob Bracegirdle

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

12/05/20 – 06:43

At the time these Panthers were delivered the PSV Circle used to hold monthly meetings at the Britons Protection Hotel at Lower Moseley Street – does anyone else remember them? One evening they hired a new Panther for a run around the City, can’t recall anything about it-on another occasion they hired a new Bedford VAM for a similar trip but I don’t know the operator.
They were good meetings, the late John Cockshott was always there, I usually bought a photo or two from him all of which I still have.

Ian Wild

Ribble – Leyland Panther – ACK 774B – 774

Ribble - Leyland Panther - ACK 774B - 774

Ribble Motor Services
1964
Leyland Panther PSUR1/2RT
Marshall DP49F

Odd man out in the Ribble fleet for over ten years was the first production Leyland Panther, which I photographed outside the September 1964 Earls Court Commercial Motor Show.
It is possible that it entered Ribble service for a spell before the show, and early on in its career it ran on the Blackpool to London service, presumably on hire to Standerwick. It operated from Preston garage for most of its life. Withdrawn from service in 9/75, no further owners are known to me.
Photographs of it actually in service are few and far between, the few I have seen are usually on private hire work.
Any recollections or in service photos would be of great interest!
It seems that Panther coaches were not too common.
From ‘Bus Lists On The Web’ and Doug Jack’s ‘Leyland’ book, I see that there were some other PSUR1/2 coaches for the home market, as follows:

15 for East Yorkshire in 1966, with Marshall bus bodies! B49F (why use a coach chassis you may ask!)
2 for East Yorkshire with Metro Cammell C44F bodies in 6/67
4 for East Yorkshire in 1/68 with Marshall DP49F bodies
5 for East Yorkshire in 1968 with Plaxton C44F bodies
1 for Soudley Valley Coaches, Glos in 11/66 with Plaxton C51F body
10 for Seamarks of Westoning, Beds with O.680 engines and Plaxton C51F bodies in 1968 (full air change ?)
6 for Seamarks with Plaxton C51F bodies in 1969
4 for Skills of Nottingham, two in 1969 and two PSUR1B/2R in
1971 all with Plaxton C51F bodies

Photos of any of these would be of interest.
Many more were exported, which was also the case with the bus version, which did well in Australia.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Peter G Greaves

This unique Panther was the reason that Ribble continued to buy large numbers of Leopards (bus, DP and coach versions) and ultimately why they became a major RE user. It was a disaster. Unreliable, it probably slept in the corner of Frenchwood for much of its life and was condemned to private hire to avoid the (bad) publicity of breakdown on high profile long distance express services. The sad fact was that the Leopard was reliable, the Panther not.
Some, including Preston Corporation and the Aussies, persisted with the Panther and seemed to make it work but most British operators – including Manchester – had similar experience. It put back the case for low(er) floor vehicles for some years – and certainly until the RE was made available on the open market later in the decade.
[I think that you will also find that Maidstone and District had similar numbers and types of Panther as East Yorkshire.]
This must also have been a fairly early Marshall body for both Ribble and BET – who became a major, and repeat, customer of this well built body. [Even stars have Achilles heels though and I gather in grand old age – i.e. in preservation – some Marshalls need quite a bit of tlc, otherwise their front platform can fall off!]
The East Yorkshire Met-Camms were full coaches of the Topaz design – although I seem to remember that that was the “Bedford” designation and that Leylands had a different name. After closure of Weymann at Addlestone, Metro-Cammell took on the mantle of coaches from the line of the Fanfare and Castillians. They were true coaches but they never realised a balanced design that pleased either generally or, indeed, as a coach.

David Oldfield

All the early rear-engined single deckers – Roadliner, Panther, Panther Cub and Swift/Merlin – were pretty disastrous, apart from the Bristol RE, which possibly benefited from having the radiator at the front and the engine mounted slightly further forward than the others.
As you say, some operators persevered, and Sunderland reckoned that by the time they got it right the Panther was a really good vehicle. Their experience included a comparison of bodies between MCW’s, which was attached to the chassis throughout, and a much more successful effort by Strachan which featured a separate cantilevered subframe supporting the rear end of the body, allowing the chassis to go its own way.
According to Stewart J Brown’s “Luxury Travel” book, the East Yorkshire MCW coaches were designated Topaz II.

Peter Williamson

03/09/11 – 05:41

This machine was used in the late 60s and early 70s at various times in addition to Private Hire on Stage Carriage and on two or three times to my knowledge on the X30 Preston to Glasgow, X11 Preston Edinburgh and the X20 Preston to Glasgow Night Service Express. As these services operated as a duplicate to the peak season service from Manchester and Liverpool any coach or DP could be used from Preston.

Brian Cowdall

04/09/11 – 07:54

I always disliked this type of incongruous sharp cornered radiator grille on otherwise handsome bodies. They gave the impression of having been assembled “in house” from spare material after possible accident repairs and never looked right to me.

Chris Youhill

12/01/14 – 09:15

I travelled on a Ribble bus tour in 1963 from London to Nairne and back to London. I still have the original ticket and bus itinerary. I also have a photo of the bus and the driver. I was 18 years old and as I was the youngest on the tour I was nominated to get married at Gretna Green to the bus driver. (who was married with children). They are happy memories.

Pam

12/01/14 – 11:10

Coach tours can be friendly like that, Pam, even today!
I re-read these posts, David O, and you made mention of the closure of Weymanns at Addlestone, just down the road from you. I wondered if there was the slightest trace left of their factory, or even the name applied to a business park, a plaque in the pavement, or……anything?

Chris Hebbron

12/01/14 – 17:11

Pam
Would there be any chance of having a copy of the picture you have of the Driver and Coach for my website.
This is at //www.psvbadges.org.uk
I have a page for Driver and Conductor pictures.
Thanks very much

Stephen Howarth

13/01/14 – 08:33

Chris. Sadly the answer is no, no, no and no. It is “covered” by speculative offices and the name Aviation Park – reflecting its use BEFORE Weymanns.

David Oldfield

14/01/14 – 08:13

I’ve just noticed the advertisement for the Ford Corsair – if people hadn’t taken photographs of buses how much of this incidental history would have been lost? Anyway, this has reminded me of something that bothered me a few years ago: the Corsair was presumably around at the same time as the Cortina MkI, but the Cortina lived on and the Corsair didn’t – can anybody slightly longer in the tooth than myself tell me whether the Corsair was positioned above or below the Cortina.
Anyway, back to the bus. Were all the problems with the chassis? or might some have been down to the bodybuilders failing to account for the stresses caused by the flexing of all that weight at the rear – Strachans’ bodies were cantilevered I think, allowing the rear-end to flex, and didn’t suffer the problems that led, I believe, to a batch of Willowbrook(?)-bodied single-deck Fleetlines in the Northern fleet almost cracking open. As the RE’s engine was situated further forward than on other types then that would have reduced the stresses on the bodywork.

Philip Rushworth

14/01/14 – 09:44

Re the Corsair, the first thing to understand is the Ford line up in the UK in the mid 1960s. The bottom of the range was the Anglia, next came the Cortina, then the Corsair, after which the Zephyr and Zodiac topped off the range. Each type had a range of factory options so each model was in effect a range within a range.
The Ford Consul had been produced until 1962 as the bottom tier of the Consul/Zephyr/Zodiac range. Ford then used the Consul name in a different way producing the Consul Classic 4 door and the Consul Capri two door until the end of 1963. The types were not to the public’s taste and disappeared at the end of 1963. The bottom tier of the Consul range became the Consul Cortina, generally known as the Cortina Mk1.
The Corsair first appeared at the 1963 Motor Show as the Consul Corsair as a replacement for the Consul Classic and went on sale in 1964. It was positioned above the Cortina and was offered in various versions. Originally powered by 1500cc Kent series in line engines, in 1965 the engine was replaced by a V-4 1600cc unit which contributed to the cars deteriorating sales from then on as it was noisy, rough and not as responsive as the 1600E Cortina Mk 2 which took many Corsair customers. Ford had introduced a 2000cc engine for the Corsair but its price point only worked in favour of the 1600E. The company also produced a Corsair 2000E aimed at competing, with of all things, the current Rover range but the cache off the Rover name meant more than price to most customers at that level.
When I worked for United Biscuits in 1967 we reps had Cortina 1300s and the area managers had 1600cc powered Corsairs.
In 1970 Ford re-jigged its range. The Escort, which had appeared in 1968, replaced the Anglia and also appealed to 1300cc basic Cortina Mk2 buyers so the Mk3 Cortina was a bigger car than the Mk2 and replaced the more expensive Mk2s and the Corsair. By 1972 the Zodiac/Zephyr had gone and were replaced by the Granada. With 310,000 Corsairs sold and a demand for a larger than Cortina but cheaper than Granada model appearing, Ford reintroduced the Consul name using the Granada body with a V-4 1996c engine and a V-6 giving 2495 cc. I had one of the former which was as horrible as the V-4 Corsair but I later had 2000cc Pinto engined Consul produced from 1974 and that was some car.

Phil Blinkhorn

14/01/14 – 10:09

Phil, there’s a lot of anecdotal evidence about bodywork on the first generation rear engined single deckers of the 1960’s, but I’ve never seen any formal article produced about the subject. I’m sure many of us can trace articles or even books which cover the faults and failings (and good points?) of Leyland Panthers, AEC Swifts, Daimler Roadliners, and Seddon Pennine RUs. (I’m omitting the very first of all – the Bristol RE – both Bristol and ECW got that right!). But I have yet to discover anything formal about the merits of the bodybuilders, such as Marshall, MCCW, Strachans, Park Royal, Alexander, etc. The most that appears are hints such as those related on this site, or similar letters in magazines such as Classic Bus. It would be great if “someone out there” with the knowledge and/or the contacts to research this topic could thoroughly explore the topic and produce a definitive paper on it. Chassis manufacturers have had a fair share of material written about both their successes and failures – so why not the body builders?

Michael Hampton

15/01/14 – 05:51

The Plaxton Derwent bodied Roadliners at PMT survived quite well whereas the Marshall bodied ones simply broke their backs. The Derwent was timber framed where the Marshall was steel framed. I’m not sure it’s necessarily quite as simple as that. The Seddon RUs with Pennine dual doorway bodies at Huddersfield were a disaster, probably even worse than the Marshall Roadliners. Only they were given a major rebuild by Pennine including removal of the centre doorway did they become acceptable. My total experience of Swifts was the two Huddersfield Roe bodied ones which I remember more for AH505 engine problems than ones associated with the bodies. Perhaps the nadir was reached with the pair of Halifax Pennine bodied Fleetline SDs – now there was a pile of junk!

Ian Wild

15/01/14 – 05:56

Phil, thanks for all that – it answered my question, and then some. What are you like on Rootes-group offerings of the same period?
Michael, I suppose with coachwork the interest is in the aesthetic of the product, rather than what lies underneath. Two of the least-robust bodies of all time seem to have been semi-coaches produced for NBC towards the end of its existence . . . ECW’s B51(?) – its re-working of its early 1970s design; and Willowbrook’s offering of a couple of years earlier. Although I understand that some of these steel-framed BET standards suffered later in life, which seemingly accounted for the eagerness with which some BET companies snapped-up ECWs aluminium-framed offerings once they became available on the open-market.

Philip Rushworth

15/01/14 – 08:29

Ask away Philip.

Phil Blinkhorn

15/01/14 – 08:55

It depends on the extent of design cooperation and integrity. The B51 failed because the original was designed AROUND the RELH. When put on a mid-engined Leopard, the boot fell off into the road – for SELNEC/GMT, even before the B51 version. Strachans built the most successful Swifts with a floating rear, that is NOT tied to the chassis and therefore not prone to breaking the back of the chassis. The Willowbrooks were simply cheaply flung together with even less rust protection than the dreadful contemporary Duples. [Down to a price for NBC.] Most bodies were good but rear underfloor engined buses were new and most people had not even imagined the potential problem which became a major disaster. I read recently that the Weymann BETs were the best – and they were not by any means the most numerous. Likewise, apart from the nadir of the dreadful early ’60s (metal framed) bodies, Roe and Park Royal were among the very best.

David Oldfield

31/08/14 – 06:10

I was an inspector at Bolton depot 1969.
Reading all these comments brings back happy memories.

Vincent Fitzpatrick

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

20/10/15 – 06:59

Although an engineer, I never fully understood body construction! However, a few comments from my own career experiences:
I am interested to see comments that Strachans bodied Panthers survived better than Willowbrook bodied versions in the north. This was not my experience at Maidstone where the Strachans bodies moved amidships sufficient to cause aluminium dust to appear between all internal trim panels. Indeed Vin Owen, CE, got Willowbrook in (about 1971) to decide how to strengthen up the Strachans bodies, because the Willowbrook Panthers were sound! From what I recall, one feature of the strengthening was external curved steel angles fitted at the roof panel joints. I cannot recall the Panthers being much trouble otherwise although they were then at the back end of their lives. They were prone to engine fires, but that was a period when AEC 590 Reliances were also in similar trouble. I suspect that the single deck Fleetlines were introduced in Medway towns to replace Panthers. My only other memory is that the driving position seemed remarkably low and not very OMO friendly.
With regard to the ECW B51 body, I recall when at UCOC complaining to the seat manufacturer that the seat frame was cracking in the seat near the emergency door. I had the dubious pleasure of telling him a few days after he had visited to see, that I had discovered the reason for the cracking – the seat frame was holding the back of the body together! A huge modification programme was swiftly instituted by ECW.

Geoff Pullin

Lancaster City Transport – Leyland Panther – LTC 109F – 109

Lancaster Corporation - Leyland Panther - LTC 109F - 109

Lancaster City Transport
1968
Leyland Panther PSUR1/1R
East Lancs B53F

LTC 109F fleet number 109 is a Leyland Panther PSUR1/1R with East Lancs B53F body, new to Lancaster in 1968. The batch was in maroon and cream livery then, but we see it in ‘post merger’ livery of blue and white, on the sunny evening of 20 May 1975. The scene is Lancaster’s Damside Street Bus Station. 389 JTD a 1959 Tiger Cub is behind, still in the old livery but with the Tilling style of fleetname adopted as an interim measure for Lancaster and Morecambe & Heysham vehicles, together with what looks like another Panther on the extreme left of the view.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

24/04/16 – 09:09

In late 1979 LTC 109F came to Derbyshire when, in company with Morecambe and Heysham AEC Swift UTJ 908H, it joined Woolliscroft Silver Service fleet at Darley Dale. Initially they were on loan from Lancaster City but were purchased outright soon after arrival. The Panther bore a strong family resemblance to a batch of Neepsend bodied Panthers at nearby Chesterfield, these Neepsend bodies being built under license from East Lancs. LTC 109F lasted a couple of years but was eventually stripped for spares and the remains had been scrapped by 1982. The Swift lasted a little longer going to North at Sherburn in 1983.

David Hargraves

24/04/16 – 10:43

My original slide includes the Ribble PD3 with Metropolitan Cammell body which some members may have spotted on the extreme right It is from the PCK series. Lancaster had six of these Panthers, in two trios: GTC 104-106F from 1967 and 107-109F from 1968.
David comments on a number of supposed ‘East Lancs’ products being bodied by Neepsend. Some of Southampton’s later Regent V fleet were products of this arrangement and I think I’ve read somewhere that many think Neepsend was a subsidiary of East Lancs, but they were in fact part of the same group. Wrong again, Davies?

Pete Davies

24/04/16 – 12:42

Just a clarification re. Pete’s comment, the registrations of the second batch of three Panthers were LTC-F.
Lancaster reverted to Leopards for its next deliveries.

Dave Towers

24/04/16 – 18:33

Thanks, Dave. I must fire my proof reader!

Pete Davies

26/04/16 – 14:57

East Lancs were owned at the time by John Brown engineering who were based originally in Sheffield They re activated bus building in Sheffield at a factory on Neepsend Lane using East Lancs designs.
So really Neepsend were never an East Lancs subsidiary but both were part of the John Brown empire.
Sheffield took some rear engine chassis from them in 1964/65 The firm (I think) built one more body on a Bedford VAS chassis for Sheffield but by this time it was called Cravens Homalloy.

Chris Hough

27/04/16 – 05:54

Thanks, Chris. I’m glad that the old grey cells have not failed me this time.

Pete Davies

Maidstone & District – Leyland Panther – LKT 132F – 3132

Maidstone & District - Leyland Panther - LKT 132F - 3132

Maidstone & District
1968
Leyland Panther PSUR1/1R
Strachans B48F

LKT 132F is a Leyland Panther PSUR1/1R new to Maidstone & District in 1968. It has a Strachan B48F body, somewhat unusual for a BET firm, and we see it in the Netley rally on 14 July 1996 so the body at least is more or less ‘home’ as Strachans later products were built just along the road in Hamble. The Parish Council calls it Hamble Le Rice now, and it’s nothing to do with puddings. In this sense, it means ‘rich’.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

20/11/16 – 15:48

Yes its a standard BET front, but the livery does a great deal to hide the uneven window and panel spacing layout. Just by example if you were to look at Liverpool 1097 currently in the heading on the ‘other’ bus blog page, it shows how neat this one really is. Its a pity we don’t have sound on here as Panther exhausts were in a class of their own.

Mike Norris

21/11/16 – 07:54

Mike there is a section on here for bus noises. To be found at the ‘More pages’ tab top right in the menu, then select “Old Bus Sounds”.

Stephen Howarth

05/11/17 – 07:30

With reference to 3251 (ex SO251) as I knew it when I drove it. This was always a delightful vehicle to drive and was usually requested by our depot engineer – Ernie Marks – at Gravesend. I remember using it on many runs to High Halstow, Cliffe and also Meopham & Harvel. I have a photo slide of it taken when I used it.
With reference to S1-S5 or 3701-5, again when I drove all of them, these would often tread there way onto the 122 London to Brighton run and I had the pleasure of driving them between Gravesend and Tunbridge Wells. The only problem I found was the bodywork rattle caused by over-inflated tyres, something which Tunbridge Wells was usually in favour of. Hence, all vehicles from both garages had bodies that were shaken to pieces – sometimes almost literally!

Freddy Weston

09/11/17 – 07:14

Although my memory is not so good nowadays, I have to hand a fleet allocation list for 1st October 1971. From that it looks as if Freddy’s and Ernie Marks’ favourite Reliance 3251 had left the fleet by then. 3701-6 are shown as allocated to Tonbridge and 3125 was allocated to Maidstone. With regard to comments about high tyre pressures, it is relevant that M&D had three tyre mileage contractors in 1970. I think Gravesend and possibly Borough Green were covered by Michelin who would only have used radial ply tyres which have more flexible walls. The Tunbridge Wells district (inc Tonbridge, Hawkhurst and Edenbridge) was covered by Firestone with cross ply tyres which may have felt harder. Dunlop was the third contractor. This made it a bit difficult when vehicles were re-allocated across contracts! Around 1971, Dunlop were contracted to cover the whole fleet using a new centralised tyre workshop for fitting new and re-grooving tyres. Mobile inspectors examined the fleet regularly for pressure and tread depth. Each depot had a supply of wheel assemblies with fit tyres for failures in service. An interesting aspect of this was that quite a few vehicles were found to be fitted with wheels of the incorrect offset, so a supply of new wheels had to be bought to facilitate a sorting out!

Geoff Pullin

PS – I meant to add that Panthers 3131 and 3135 were delicensed for repair of fire damage and 3127 for major body repairs! Engine compartment fires were a bit endemic for Panthers and also Reliances at the time. As I have said elsewhere, M&D found that the Willowbrook bodied Panthers were better than the Strachans bodies which suffered a lot of panel movement and aluminium dust permeating the insides. They were strengthened by a scheme devised by Willowbrook!