…of vehicles pre-1970
Copyright Ray Soper
This shot is from the Ray Soper gallery contribution titled “Smith’s Luxury Coaches of Reading” click on the title if you would like to view his Gallery and comments.
The shot is shown here for indexing purposes but please feel free to make any comment regarding this vehicle either here or on the gallery.
Photographer unknown – if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
The AEC Regent II was only in production for three years 1945 – 48 and just under 700 were made but at the time just after the war they were much in demand. There wasn’t any variations either it came with a 7.7 litre 6 cylinder oil engine, four speed sliding mesh gearbox otherwise known as a crash gearbox and vacuum assisted brakes, but on saying that it was well capable of doing the job and most of all it was very reliable. Of course there was a choice of body and the above bus had one from the local Portsmouth bodybuilders Reading who built and rebuilt quite a few buses for Provincial.
Bus tickets issued by this operator can be viewed here.
When Provincial re-built their Guy Arabs with air-cooled Deutz engines, they built the lower decks of the bus bodies themselves, then sent the half-completed bodies to Portsmouth bodybuilder, Reading, who built the upper deck and roof. A strange practice indeed.
Reading also built several bodies for Portsmouth Corporation buses, too.
Chris Hebbron
Provincial had 4 of these Regent IIs, numbered 10-13 (FHO 602-5). Strangely enough, no.10 was the only one of the batch not to undergo any significant rebuilding (with the exception of a minor alteration to the destination box layout in the late 1950s) and was also the last one withdrawn in December 1968. By 1959,11/12 were found to be suffering from body rot and were subsequently rebuilt using the wartime Reading bodies from AEC rebuilds 14 (EOR 251) and 15 (EHO 282); whilst 13 was initially converted to open-top in 1958 following a collision at Fareham Railway Arch, and rebuilt to closed top once more by Reading in 1960.
For further photos of Provincial vehicles, here are a couple of links:
//www.flickr.com///www.regent8.co.uk/ (select ‘In Focus’)
Stephen Didymus
14/07/12 – 18:29
Copyright Beckingtonian (Flikr) with his permission.
Here is a colour photo of a very smart No. 10, taken in 1968, just a year before its withdrawal, as scrap, in April 1969, after a creditable 22 years of service.
Chris Hebbron
I think any bus would look good in the K.H.C.T. livery but a Weymann flared skirt bodied Regent II looks just about perfect.
This bus was one of a batch of 16 Regent IIs delivered in 1946, they were the first non utility bodied buses delivered to Hull after the war. They were followed the following year 1947 by a batch of 24 Regent IIIs then between 1948 and 1950 there were 56 more Regent IIIs delivered. These buses were desperately needed after the war due to the bombing that Hull received. K.H.C.T. certainly liked there AECs apart from 10 ex Newcastle Corporation Daimler CVG6s photo here all there double deckers were AEC until the arrival of the rear engined Leyland Atlanteans in 1960 which by the way were the first front entrance double deckers in the fleet.
The KHCT ‘streamline’ livery reached its peak on the Coronation trolleybuses. I spent many happy hours travelling to Brunswick Ave school, on these trolleybuses, what a shame none were preserved.
Keith Easton
Photographer unknown – if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
This photograph of Midland Red buses at Stourbridge bus station in the late 1950’s/early 1960’s, comes from my collection of postcards bought as an aide memoire of my early bus spotting holidays in the Hinckley area in the 1950s, when Midland Red (BMMO) was at the peak of their existence. The photographer is unknown, but the card is credited to the Midlands Omnibus Preservation Society, so perhaps someone may be able to gives us a name.
Midland Red was famous for its innovative bus designs. During a glorious period from 1938 until the mid-1960’s, BMMO introduced a stunning array of unique and efficient buses to serve their huge network of urban, suburban, inter-urban, country, express and tour operations. Ironically, their in-house activities eventually proved to be their downfall, as they couldn’t compete with commercial suppliers who eventually offered more economical (but less interesting) products.
3148 (JHA 49) was an AD2 – one of fifty AEC Regent II’s with Brush H30/26R bodies, delivered as late as 1948. These had the distinctive body style which was a direct development of the 1945 BMMO-engined prototype (D1). Once BMMO’s in-house manufacturing capacity became free, following large-scale, underfloor-engined, single-deck chassis manufacture, they were able to build the D5 chassis which bore an 8-foot wide version of the AD2 body (the designations D3 and D4 were never used).
3970 (OHA 970) was one of a large number of BMMO-engined S13’s from 1953 with DP40F bodies built by Carlyle, Brush and Nudd. It is wearing the distinctive red and black coach livery even though it is operating a local town service.
Just visible is the rear of one of the delightful, pre-war SOS FEDD’s (forward-entrance, double-decker).
Photograph and Copy contributed by Paul Haywood
02/05/12 – 17:25
Great to see my old Company featured, most of the articles feature the ‘Northerners’ and BMMO, the great innovators, largely ignored. With regard to Paul’s request the Birmingham Omnibus Preservation Society was formed by John A Searle and Paul Gray, the latter (I think) still has a connection with the late lamented ‘Aston Manor Museum’ which I am pleased to see has relocated after being so dreadfully treated by Birmingham City Council! “BOPS” was formed – in the early 70’s, ‘to purchase, or assist other suitable bodies to purchase, a small but representative selection of the remaining BMMO built vehicles’. I do hope Paul’s recollections spark many more memories of this unique operator and it’s many ground breaking PSV derivatives.
Nigel Edwards
03/05/12 – 09:06
Your comment, Nigel, struck a chord with me because, browsing through the site the other day, I too was struck by the absence of any Midland Red posting. Paul’s is the only one I’ve come across. BMMO were by far the largest provincial operator – about 3 times the size of the next largest company – so that’s odd, especially bearing in mind their extensive manufacturing activities.
I’ve sometimes wondered why BMMO vehicles never found their way to other, (particularly BET), companies. Was this deliberate Midland Red policy, was it lack of manufacturing capacity, (I think BMMOs were made in the old Bean factory), was it cost compared to alternatives, or were other operators just not interested?
Paul suggests that cost was a factor, and no doubt he’s right, but a larger market would have reduced unit costs and made BMMOs a more attractive proposition, surely? Considering how Bristol grew and flourished through Tilling support, were BMMO vehicles a lost opportunity? If they were as good as their fans claim, it might seem so.
Roy Burke
03/05/12 – 14:13
Don’t forget that Trent actually took a substantial fleet of SOS’s, but then went over to AEC Regals. I don’t know why, but BMMO just never “floated my boat”. For one thing I never did like tin fronts. Mind you, I remember doing an aural double-take at Tamworth bus station one day, when one of these disguised AEC’s was started up and set off for “St Helena via Glascote”, producing the delightful music of a crash-gearbox Regent, which was the last sound in the world I was expecting it to make.
Stephen Ford
03/05/12 – 14:14
In prewar days both Trent and Northern General bought BMMO designed vehicles. After the war I doubt if the BMMO factory could have kept pace with demand and in addition several of the designs were advanced mechanically and the British bus industry has always been conservative when it comes to innovation.
Chris Hough
04/05/12 – 07:16
Interestingly Stratford Blue who were a Midland Rad subsidiary were never tempted being happy with various members of the Leyland zoo.
Chris Hough
04/05/12 – 07:18
You’re right, Stephen and Chris, about the Trent and Northern General versions of the BMMO designs. However, this was during the pre-war era when Midland Red seemed archaic, and before the wonderful post-war period when GM Donald Sinclair turned BMMO into an industry-leading organisation.
My early memories of MR date from the mid-1950s and, although I was used to seeing underfloor-engined buses and “tin fronts” in Leeds, the style of bodywork of the AD2’s, D5’s, S6’s and S8’s was so different I found them fascinating.
I fondly remember the adventure of riding on one of the ONC pre-war coaches on the X69(?) from Hinckley to Bedworth (because my pocket money wouldn’t stretch to Coventry). Add to that, numerous “thrashes” on a D5B (D5’s with electric doors) to and from Leicester on the 658 and I was in heaven.
Yes, Stephen, I also remember the AD2’s with their delightful crash-box whine on the Hinckley/Burbage locals, and being surprised to learn, much later, that they were AEC’s.
In the 1960’s, the ubiquitous D7’s and D9’s ruled the roost but were still different enough to be interesting. But by then, for me, the glory days were over!
Perhaps the lack of interest in Midland Red is because of their gradual decline from a unique operation into a bland monopoly using off-the-peg products.
Paul Haywood
04/05/12 – 14:38
Love it, Paul, about having to take the shorter journey because of pocket money inadequacies! In 1956-58, I was in the RAF at 16MU Stafford and recall the SOS-FEDD’s, that appeared, to a Londoner, very old-fashioned, especially around the front entrance. Conversely, who couldn’t love their C1 coaches in that gorgeous Red/Black livery!
Chris Hebbron
12/06/12 – 14:43
I was a member of Midlands Omnibus Preservation Society (MOPS) c1968. Cannot remember the names of other members but we did exhibit our buses at Crich around ’69 – ’70 and sold postcards etc. there. We owned a D5 (?) and a Leyland Tiger coach (Dorsal Fin) – can’t supply any further details as I wasn’t exactly a “keen” member and did not keep in touch with any of the others.
John Rollason
13/06/12 – 08:03
Thanks, John – my buying this card at Crich would certainly make sense around the late 60s, early 70s. It’s amazing to think that in those days our only access to photos from other systems/regions was by way of postcard stalls or mail order. How different and easy it all is today, with an increasingly thorough database to draw from, adding to, or refreshing, our interest and knowledge.
Paul Haywood
Photograph by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
A pair of very handsome AEC Regents from the Northern General Tynemouth and District subsidiary. They are pictured at Whitley Bay Bandstand waiting to depart on the service 8 to North Shields Ferry Landing, they would follow exactly the same route as the tram service that ceased operation about 1931, not unsurprisingly it was know locally as ‘the track’.
If my records are correct, between 1947 and 1949 Percy Main took delivery of 37 Regents, all were H30/28R’s. The 1947/8 intake were all Weymann bodied, 15 in 1947 FT 5698/712 – 128/52; followed by a further 14 in 1948, FT 6143/56 – 143/56. In 1949, 21 vehicles joined the fleet, they consisted of 8 AEC Regent 111’s with Northern Coachbuilders bodies, FT 6557/64 – 157/64 the first two carried the Wakefields name, the remaining 13 were all Pickering bodied as were, 10 Guy Arab’s FT 6565/74 – 165/74 and three re bodied Regent 1’s of I think 1936 vintage – FT 4220/22 – 93/5, they had previously been Weymann forward entrance. By the time I started in 1967 all the Regents had gone, but I seem to think the Northern Coachbuilders batch went first. The Regents were the last AEC Double Deckers to be bought by Percy Main but they kept faith with AEC for coaches and single deckers.
As a footnote, in 1957 the three re bodied Regents were sold to Provincial as replacements for vehicles destroyed in a fire, the last one remained in service until 1963, by which time the chassis was 27 years old.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye
12/11/12 – 10:56
Strange how some things just work. This design was good when first introduced and just got better post war culminating in the superb four bay version. The interim (Aurora) still had character and style but the Orion never quite lived up to it’s predecessors. Like the Burlingham Seagull – “Follow that!” It’s not that easy.
David Oldfield
12/11/12 – 16:33
Can anyone tell me what type of gear control these vehicles used, manual or pre-select like the London Transport RT’s?
Norman Long
12/11/12 – 17:01
No options at all with the MkII Norman, AEC A173 7.7 litre (7.58) engine, four speed sliding mesh gearbox and vacuum assisted brakes.
Spencer
Preserved Lowestoft Corporation 21, GBJ 192, a 1947 AEC Regent II with an ECW H30/26R body seen at East Anglia Transport Museum. More information about Lowestoft Corporation Transport can be found at www.petergould.co.uk/lowestoft1.htm
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ken Jones
09/02/14 – 11:38
Nice view, Ken. Thanks for posting. Of course, we’d expect Lowestoft to support the local firm, wouldn’t we. The application of the livery is reminiscent of Newport who, until not long ago had a green and cream version and it’s reminiscent of the Dinky Toys STL.
Pete Davies
09/02/14 – 11:39
Beautiful picture of a beautiful bus. Just think of what we were deprived of by the Transport Act. ECW bodied AECs from 1948 to 1965 – not to mention Roe or Weymann bodied Bristols.
David Oldfield
09/02/14 – 16:35
I Remember traveling on this bus up the Norwich Rd when in my teens plus other routes in Lowestoft.
Bad day when the corporation buses were taken over by the double n people.
Steve
10/02/14 – 07:54
I’ve just read the article at the link above – what went wrong at Lowestoft/Waveney? In the late 1960s it seems Lowestoft Corporation considered selling the bus undertaking to ECOC, but finding the offer unacceptable then proposed route extensions . . . but lost-out in the traffic courts to ECOC. In April 1974 a joint services agreement with ECOC was reached . . . which was dissolved in March 1976, when most of the services reverted to ECOC. Seemingly reduced to being a one-route operator Waveney DC threw in the towel in December 1977 and sold the undertaking on to ECOC.
I have a Lowestoft Setright ticket from the days of Waveney DC, which is titled “Lowestoft Passenger Transport – Waveney DC Lowestoft…etc” (in black). Did Lowestoft vehicles wear this livery (with traditional lettering) to the end? and what changed when it became Waveney??
Philip Rushworth
10/02/14 – 07:56
I’m not sure if I’ve ever seen another ECW body like this one – it seems to have more than a touch of the Park Royal about it. It’s certainly very stylish and it’s fortunate that it’s been preserved.
Chris Hebbron
10/02/14 – 09:51
Maybe just the angle, Chris, but it’s the standard body for the time as found on numerous Bristol Ks and Chris Y’s favourite PD1As. It also appeared briefly as a Northern Coachbuilders’ body – as in the Newcastle Regent III. The livery not being a Tilling standard makes a lot of difference!
David Oldfield
10/02/14 – 15:02
There’s always been something of a mystery about these vehicles, there were ten of them, the only AEC Regent II’s bodied by ECW. Lowestoft had nine of them, the tenth went to Ebor Transport of Mansfield and was registered HAL 841. Nine would seem an odd quantity for Lowestoft to order and it seems equally unlikely that Ebor would have chosen ECW to body an odd Regent. I’ve always thought they must have been one batch so did Lowestoft order ten and then decide they only needed nine? Perhaps we will never know now. Incidentally, HAL 841 entered ‘Tilling’ ownership when Ebor was taken over by Mansfield District.
Chris Barker
11/02/14 – 07:10
Chris B, Messrs Doggett and Townsin’s Book ‘ECW 1946-1965’ mentions the nine ECW-bodied Regent IIs for Lowestoft and that “a tenth body of similar design was built on the same type of chassis for the Ebor Bus Co Ltd”. The text also states that the Lowestoft vehicles had body numbers 1579-1587, with the Ebor body directly following (1588). It does seem odd as you say, that the independent Ebor asked ECW to body one chassis, but the authors also mention that another independent took delivery of six ECW-bodied Leyland Tiger PS1 buses in 1946/47, namely Birch Bros of London. David O’s comments about the Transport Act depriving us of some fascinating chassis/body combinations certainly rings true. Just imagine a Roe-bodied Lodekka, or ECW-bodied Daimler CVG6….
Brendan Smith
11/02/14 – 17:40
But we did get ECW bodied Leyland PD2s and Leyland Leopard L1s for Sheffield Joint Omnibus Committee and Bristol LSs and MWs with Alexander bodies for Western S.M.T. Also rebodied Bristol Ks with Weymann bodies for Maidstone and District.
Stephen Bloomfield
12/02/14 – 06:55
Thanks Stephen, that’s very true, and how could such gems have slipped my mind? (Especially as the Sheffield examples are shown on this very website!) On the same tack Rotherham had batches of East Lancs-bodied Bristol K and KS types. ECW bodied Albions for Red & White, and Guy Arab IIIs for Middlesbrough, as well as Leyland Royal Tigers for United (coaches) and Cumberland (buses). One tends to forget just how many advance orders had been placed with both Bristol and ECW for delivery after the nationalisation watershed of 1948.
Brendan Smith
13/02/14 – 08:09
West Yorkshire also had a batch of prewar Bristol K’s rebodied by Roe in 1953 of which KDG 26 (CWX 671) is still with us.
Keith Clark
13/02/14 – 09:54
Two non-Bristol ECW bodied vehicles from the United fleet. Both are PSU1/15 Leyland Royal Tigers. LUT1; PHN 801 was one of nine C39F coaches bought in 1952 for the Tyne Tees Thames Newcastle London route: LU4; RHN 766 was from a batch of B45F service vehicles from 1953. I don’t know the ins and outs of what happened at Carlisle, but when LU4 was based there, the depot was run by United, some Darlington registered vehicles ended up in the Ribble fleet, and then I think all Carlisle operations became Cumberland. Perhaps someone can enlighten us?
Ronnie Hoye
14/02/14 – 06:42
Ronnie, So far as I am aware, United operations in Carlisle passed to Ribble when NBC was established. With the run-up to privatisation, Ribble was split, and the northern area passed to Cumberland, while the Liverpool area (did it include Southport?) went to a new firm reviving the old North Western name. Others may know otherwise!
Pete Davies
15/02/14 – 06:11
In the old days, when we were young, there was a lot of BET/Tilling overlap. There was also a lot of historical “baggage”. United historically ran Leyland coaches – and continued to do so as long as possible. Cumberland had at least 50% private ownership and were a Leyland fleet – until Tilling came into the ascendency in the ’50s. Carlisle was given to Ribble by NBC in 1969/70. When Ribble and Cumberland came into common Stagecoach ownership, Cumbria went to Cumberland and Lancashire to Ribble.
David Oldfield
15/02/14 – 06:12
I know, I’m a bit behind the thread, but thanks to Ken Jones for posting the photo of Lowestoft Corporation No.21. As I’ve only just seen it on the website I must a rant as this bus is one of my favourite machines. Everything about it takes my breath away. The deep maroon and primrose livery which appears quite plain and Dinky 290’ish, which in itself is a lovely period half and half style, has thin black lining, then emblazoned along the lower panels is the large serif Corporaton fleetname. Inside, a lovely maroon chain-link style moquette covered the seats (see photograph). The Regent II/ECW combination always fascinated me and eventually I got a ride on this wonderful bus at the 2012 ECW 25 year Commemoration weekend.
I didn’t realise, until I read Malcom R. Whites “Lowestoft Corporation Transport- Bygone Town Services” (ISBN 0-9532485-9-3) book how the Corporations routes were severely restricted to basically north-south with loops on each end and have always wondered why they were not extended inland to places like Oulton Broad and Carlton Colville.
The Rotterdam Road bus depot building still survives, but now owned by an industrial concern.
Graham Watling
15/02/14 – 06:13
W Alexander & Sons had 12 Daimler CVD6s with ECW ‘Queen Mary’ coach bodies, complete with the Alexander Bluebird emblem. It doesn’t get more mouth-watering than that!
Peter Williamson
15/02/14 – 06:54
Just to support the latest thread on this marvellous bus a couple of photos one of the interior of lower deck and a rear view.
Graham Watling
15/02/14 – 10:47
This beautiful moquette pattern, but in blue and cream, was used by Roe in the two new bodies (lower saloons) fitted in 1951 to Samuel Ledgard’s two utility Guy Arabs. I always thought it to be a most appealing design, bold but tasteful.
Chris Youhill
15/02/14 – 13:39
Chris Y’s comments made me think of something else. The interior shot shows window pans more in the Roe mould than that found on standard Bristol/ECW vehicles. [Were there not overtures to ECW from both Roe and Roberts in the pre WW II years? There was certainly tooing and froing of major people between the likes of Roe, ECW, Park Royal and Weymann.]
David Oldfield
16/02/14 – 07:30
I’m a bit slow replying, David O, but you are right about the vehicle looking different when not in Tilling Green. SEE my post www.old-bus-photos.co.uk/?p=4321 And the AEC rad also tends to fool the eye. Finally, the light upper colour diminishes the rather high front roofline which these highbridge bodies possessed. It’s a very satisfying body and livery.
Chris Hebbron
16/02/14 – 07:31
I only found out today whilst perusing the latest edition of Classic Bus that this style of 5 bay ECW body (albeit in lowbridge form) was fitted to a Daimler, a CWA6 which had been rebodied by one of the Scottish companies. You learn something new every day!
Chris Barker
19/06/14 – 09:26
Having done much work on this bus during its restoration , I can add that it is a standard ECW ‘K” body fitted to a Regent II chassis this is highlighted around the cab front end area when compared to the Bristol variant , either way it sits well unlike some body builders efforts , another issue that affected maintenance of these vehicles was the provision of the trapdoors in the cab for the starter motor was not ideally suitable and same with the gearbox lifting eye in the lower saloon was too offset to be of use. Another point of interest was the Ebor body no. was found on our example on some of the internal panels I can understand other body numbers being found from the Lowestoft batch because of salvage etc.
Peter Short
29/06/14 – 17:11
Graham Watling wonders why the Corporation never operated to Oulton Broad and similar. The answer lay in the licensing system whereby the traffic commissioners had to always give the licence for any new route to the “established operator”. Thus because Eastern Counties was the first to provide services to Oulton Broad and Oulton, the corporation had no chance of obtaining a licence to operate to those points. The system produced utter farce at times, such as when the Corporation applied for a town centre to Hollingsworth Road service, it could not have a stop in the lower portion of Rotterdam Road because that might lead to abstraction from ECOC service 3, which did not serve the Gunton Estate!
To hell with the customer, the bus company interest came first, I know I was one of many who complained about the bad behaviour of ECOC to our local MP and the Department of Transport. The deregulation of buses was welcome, but unfortunately threw out the baby with the bath water, so that we lost local council fleets in many cases whilst happily getting rid of the NBC and PTEs.
These buses provided a source of pleasure to me from late 1966 when I moved to Lowestoft. Wonderful sound effects! I have an amusing incident concerning one of these lovely buses. I got on one at Station Square one evening after travelling from work at Norwich. The crew boarded, a short pause and communication between them followed, then the conductor asked the men in the lower saloon if we could give the bus a push as the starter motor was stuck. We duly obliged and the bus was soon under way. Happy days!
Perhaps Peter Short can answer a question about these buses. they are shown as Regent IIs but the chassis numbers all commence 0661, which of course is the Regent I So are these really Regent IIs?
Brian Moore
12/09/15 – 14:38
Brian Moore mentions the “push starting” at Station Square. Well in about 1969 a fellow passenger, the conductor and I had a similar “stuck” starter motor at the No 2 Gunton Drive/Gunton Drive terminus one cold morning when I was trying to get to the station. It was a bit of a push as the road there had ruts caused by the bus wheels always stopping in the same place….!
The conductor did not seem surprised. I think he said that bus 27 had a missing tooth on the starter wheel! I am so glad that one from that batch has been preserved
Christopher Boulter
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
08/01/16 – 06:31
I have just overhauled and re fitted the rear axle on this and if this is any use Brian Moore the chassis number is 06611945 also the rear axle had so many part what no other Regent II had i:e parallel rollers instead of tapered roller bearing and the only explanation I can come up with is that AEC must of used up all the parts from Regent I as I believe these are very early regent II? so effectively it is just a Regent I underneath.
Also was number 27 an AEC Regent III?
Connor
03/04/19 – 08:45
In reply to Connor’s 08/01/16 question about number 27 which I believe was the bus with the missing starter tooth, it would have been from the same series ie 19-27 like number 21.
None had direction indicators which in the late 1960s caused much confusion with holidaymakers used to such modern extras as the drivers hand would only stick out about 10 inches from the cab window!
The 19-27 series was withdrawn around 1969 to be replaced by the Corporation’s first four front entrance/centre exit single deckers numbers 1-4.
Numbers 28 & 29 were of a later vintage and were around 1969 retrofitted with indicators!
I recall some early/mid 1960s AEC & Leyland double deckers too which had replaced some war/post war utility buses.
Christopher Boulter
After the Intake of early 1940, no more vehicles arrived at Percy Main until 1946, in the meantime, seven vehicles were transferred to other Northern General Transport depots, eight more were requisitioned by the Ministry of War Transport.A total of 15 from a fleet of around 110 was a sizable chunk. For a while, spares availability became a problem, so it was not uncommon for vehicles awaiting parts to be cannibalised to keep others going. The first post war intake arrived in 1946 in the form of five H30/26R Northern Counties bodied 5GLW Guy Arab III’s. However, as has been mentioned before, Northern General Transport allowed its subsidiaries a degree of independence with vehicle choice and spec, so it was not long before Percy Main reverted to AEC.
Between 1947/8 they took delivery of 29, H30/26R Weymann bodied Regent II’s, which at that time amounted to roughly a quarter of the fleet. The first batch delivered in 1947 were FT 5698 to 5712 and numbered 128 to 142, the 1948 intake were FT 6143 to 6156, numbered 143 to 156. 141-142 & 156 carried the Wakefields name but were otherwise identical. The Regent II chassis had a 7.7 Litre diesel engine, four- speed sliding mesh gearbox and friction clutch, buying wasn’t complicated, it was bog standard with no other options available, so it came down to a straightforward decision of take it or leave it. Like most vehicles of the period, by today’s standards they were unrefined, but they were well built rugged and reliable, and demanded a degree of respect, anyone foolish enough to try to abuse them would generally find that the Regent was made of stern stuff. They also had one essential ingredient that modern vehicles don’t have, a conductor! As anyone who has ever worked a dual crew bus will tell you, conductors will be the first to complain if the ride is anything less than acceptable. The choice of body was a different matter with umpteen options on offer, Percy Main opted for Weymann, the build quality was top notch, and arguably one of the best looking bodies of the period. they were no strangers to it having bought similar vehicles in 1940: 152, was from the 1948 intake and is seen here in its original livery. By the time of its first repaint “about 1951”, the black lineout had been dropped and the fleet name was much smaller, but the gold coach lines were still in vogue. Note the flip down metal DUPLICATE plate under the overhang, apart from the later Routemasters; this was a standard fitting on all Northern General Transport group half cabs
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye
28/07/14 – 07:57
It’s surprising how many Percy Main depot buses have appeared in model form. AEC Regent 135 (similar to the above photo) was issued by Corgi many years ago. They also issued Leyland Olympian 3593 from a later era. Britbus weighed in with Coastline Atlantean 3458. E.F.E. have been the most prolific with Leyland PD2 / Orion 230, AEC Renown as Tynemouth 333 and yellow Northern 3743, Atlantean / MCW yellow Northern 3194 as well as yellow Northern National 4444 and Coastline Wright Low Floor 4769. Quite an impressive representation really for one depot.
Keith Bruce
26/10/15 – 16:17
A query about this photo is the location. Looking at it, it could be Park Road, Whitley Bay. The area behind the bus was originally occupied by Whitley Park Hall. This later became a hotel, and part of the grounds became the Spanish City. The hotel closed and was demolished in the thirties. In the mid sixties, a new library was built on the site replacing the previous library which was located at the United bus station.
All this has now gone. The Spanish city has been replaced by a new school, while the library has been relocated nearer the town centre. Park Road itself has since the late sixties been a one way street in the opposite direction to which the bus is travelling.
None of this is relevant to the bus, but part of the fascination of old bus photos is seeing how much has changed – not just the buses, but the surroundings.
John Gibson
27/10/15 – 06:32
It could be Park Road, Whitley Bay, very close to the junction with Park Avenue.
Paul Robson
27/10/15 – 06:34
John, as you say, the photo was taken a long time ago, so everything may have changed. However, my guess would be that the bus is heading west along Linskill Terrace opposite the golf course, and the trees are in Northumberland Park
Ronnie Hoye
28/10/15 – 07:00
Linskill Terrace, Tynemouth, is another possibility. However the curve in the road there occurs at the north end of Washington Terrace and you would expect to see behind the bus some of the Edwardian-era houses between Washington Terrace and Park Avenue.
Paul Robson
28/10/15 – 07:01
When I first saw this photo, I was not too certain of it’s location. The photo as reproduced here has been somewhat cropped, but the bends in the road which can be seen more clearly in the original seem to match those on Park Road. There are also buildings in the distance which look to be those between Marine Avenue and the Spanish City. As Paul Robson says, it looks as if it was taken close to the junction with Park Avenue. I would agree however that it could be elsewhere and Ronnies suggestion of Linskill Terrace is certainly a possibility.
Regarding Keith Bruce’s comments about models of Tynemouth vehicles, the E.F.E. model of 230 is a nice model, but it should be a PD3, not a PD2.
John Gibson
29/10/15 – 06:35
Having looked at this again, I think we could all be wrong. It could well be Wallsend Road, at the foot of Balkwell Avenue, opposite the Pineapple Pub. The trees would then be in the grounds of St Joseph’s R.C. school. The present church was built in the late 50’s or early 60’s, which would be after this photo was taken, and the area on the bend where the stone wall is now has a low brick wall which is at the edge of the car park.
Ronnie Hoye
01/07/22 – 06:03
Definitely Park Road, almost at Park Avenue junction. The park is Whitley Park, and the parkkeeper’s house is behind the stone wall – his son was a friend of my brother. The distant bend is indeed the Spanish City funfair location.Service 4 Gateshead was renumbered Service 1 Gateshead Lobley Hill Moorfoot subsequently.
Conrad Smith
Having completed its journey, 156 is seen here turning round at Whitley Bay Bandstand before returning to North Shields Ferry Landing. The service 8 was known to crews as ‘the track’ because it followed the exact route of the Tynemouth and District trams. The AEC Regent II chassis was well built, rugged and reliable, and was available in two options, take it or leave it. The engine was a 7.7 litre diesel, and the transmission was a 4-speed sliding mesh gearbox with friction clutch. It was an entirely different matter when it came to choice of body. NGT Percy Main depot opted for the H30/26R Weymann. This is one of twenty nine of the type delivered to them between 1947 & 48; the 1947 intake were FT 5698 to 5712, 128/142, and 1948 were FT 6143 to 6156; 143/156; they were all ‘Tynemouth’ apart from 141 – 142 & 156 which carried the Wakefields name. The first vehicles to carry this style of livery layout were the 1958 Orion bodied PD3/4’s, so the photo is after that date, but just look at the collection of coaches in the background.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye
10/11/14 – 06:58
Good to see a Regent II. I used to take them for granted in Reading, where they were the mainstay of the motorbus fleet from 1947 to 64, but they seem rare today. Was the choice of 5 bays a matter of date, of chassis design or of operator’s choice?
Ian T
10/11/14 – 08:23
According to “Weymann Part 2”, these were delivered (due to shortages) without destination blinds and with metal panelling covering the “empty holes”.
David Oldfield
10/11/14 – 11:47
I think that the matter of 4- or 5-bay bodywork is a matter of date. The 5-bay was standard in the immediate post-war years, on AEC and other makes. I am fairly sure I read somewhere that Weymann re-designed the body as four-bay for the AEC Regent III chassis, but did not build it on other makes/types, at least initially. Perhaps those with access to the “Weymann Part 2” book will find some detail, as my memory may be in “error mode” on this one.
Michael Hampton
10/11/14 – 13:31
Michael, I don’t know when the change came about, but Percy Main’s 1952 Guy Arab III’s ‘FT 7381/90 – 181/90 were four bay type. They were also P/M’s first 8ft wide D/D’s, and the first with sliding cab doors.
Ronnie Hoye
10/11/14 – 13:32
I think, originally, that AEC and the body-builders colluded to make a four bay body – but it relied on body fixing points. Guy and then Leyland eventually caught up by building chassis with compatible points and then Daimler. [Bristol was obviously a different case.] What was more interesting was the reversion to five short bays with the appalling early Orions.
David Oldfield
14/11/14 – 14:56
What was the difference between a Regent II & III’s. We had Regent III’s in Sheffield around the same year. They had pre selector gearboxes though.
Andy Fisher
15/11/14 – 05:41
AEC Regent. Mark I, II and III.
AEC Regent 661 petrol engine was built from 1929-1942, powered by an AEC A145 7.4 litre engine, many of the early examples had the open staircase later enclosed and the typical 30 seats over 26 seat layout became the standard design on a 27 foot long by 7 feet 6 inch wide chassis with over 7000 built.
AEC Regent Mk II 661/O661 was developed in the late 1930’s at 27 feet 6 inches by 7 feet 6 inches with the A173, 7.7 litre 6 cylinder diesel oil engine, resulting in the London Transport RT 1-151, the Regent II was curtailed during the second world war but recommenced after the war with only 700 built.
After the war AEC with London Passenger Transport Board had developed the AEC Regent III O961 with the more powerful AEC 9.6 litre engine. 8261 were built over the next 10 years, most of these were the iconic RT for London Transport.
Ron Mesure
15/11/14 – 05:42
The Regent II had a 7.7 litre engine, sliding mesh gearbox and vacuum brakes. The Regent III was its successor, and could be supplied with the same spec, in which case there was very little difference between the two. Most Regent IIIs however had the 9.6 litre engine, and many of these had air brakes and air-operated preselector gearboxes (especially in Yorkshire!). In this form the Regent III was a development of the London RT type which had its origins just before the war.
Peter Williamson
14/12/18 – 06:24
I have only just noticed that four years ago Ron Mesure attempted to give a fuller and more detailed answer to Andy Fisher’s question than mine. Unfortunately this is mainly incorrect.
Firstly, the petrol engines used in the Regent 661 were of 6.1 litre capacity, the 7.4 litre A145 being reserved for the three-axle Renown. Diesel engines included an 8.8 litre and a 6.6 litre unit as well as a couple of Gardners (rarely fitted).
Secondly, the version with the 7.7 litre engine was not called Regent II before the war and did not include RT1-151, which used a 9.6 litre engine like all subsequent RTs. Although designated as O661 and built before the Regent II was introduced, RT1-151 (and an odd similar chassis for Glasgow) are now regarded as the first Regent IIIs.
Thirdly, the lengths quoted are incorrect, as the maximum length of a two-axle double decker was 26 feet until 1950.
Peter Williamson
HGC 225 is an AEC Regent II with Weymann H56R body, and it dates from 1946. It wears Country Area green in this view, and the fleet number STL2692. Allowing for the London method of bus overhauls, how many chassis and bodies have worn this fleet number over the years? It is on Itchen Bridge, while taking part in the Southampton city transport centenary rally on 6 May 1979.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
19/03/17 – 10:49
“How many chassis and bodies have worn this fleet number over the years?” The answer is, just this one. These post war STL Regents didn’t last long enough with LT to pass through the Aldenham works, which only became fully operational in 1956. These buses were sold off by LT in 1955 as deliveries of the RT type became an embarrassment to the point where many new ones, together with others of the RTL class, were put straight into store upon receipt from the manufacturers. Some of these light STLs were used in 1954 on the 327 route at Hertford which traversed a weak bridge, but they were replaced in the following year by “pre war” (actually wartime) RTs which were less heavy than their post war cousins. This allowed the entire class of post war STLs to be sold to the dealer North of Leeds in July/August 1955. They soon found new owners with Dundee, Grimsby and Widnes corporations where they gave sterling service for upwards of six more years. STL 2692 went to Grimsby who got twelve years out of it before withdrawing it early in 1968.
Roger Cox
21/03/17 – 06:19
Thanks, Roger!
Pete Davies
21/03/17 – 06:20
Roger, do you happen to know if one of the municipalities you mention, perhaps Grimsby, changed the gearboxes in their examples from crash to pre-select?
I’m sure I’ve read it somewhere!
Chris Barker
21/03/17 – 08:45
Chris B – I hadn’t heard of this procedure, but if it did take place in Grimsby you have to wonder why go to such expense in a town which I assume is “as flat as a pancake” and driving a bus with a traditional transmission should surely present no problems.
Chris Youhill
21/03/17 – 15:55
Chris and Chris – I can find no record of any of these former LT STLs undergoing a gearbox change from crash to preselector, but, if true, the most likely candidate amongst the subsequent owners must surely be Dundee which had a fleet of Daimlers and AEC Regent III at that time. Do we have a Dundee expert on OBP? The Grimsby situation should be easily determined by an examination of HGC 225 itself.
Roger Cox
22/03/17 – 06:08
One of my wife’s friends lives in Grimsby. I’ll check and find out in respect of the pancakes . . .
Wife’s friend has been consulted. Grimsby is largely flat with bumps, but Cleethorpes is generally hilly with flat bits.
Pete Davies
22/03/17 – 06:10
I think I travelled on all of Grimsby’s ex-STLs (nos. 42-47 of which HGC225 was 47. 43 was HGC222 and 46 HGC219 – don’t know the others). I am sure that none were changed to pre-selectors. However there were four (I think) ex-Sheffield Regents – nos. 41 and 48-50 (?) with registrations in the KWE250 series. These had more or less identical Weymann bodies, and were pre-selectors from new. They were visually identifiable by the deeper windscreen. I’m away from home at the moment, so this is all from memory plus one or two snippets I have filed on here!
And then I realised…one of the Sheffield transfers featured in David Careless’s post in June 2013, and I responded at the time thus : “The transfers became Grimsby-Cleethorpes Transport numbers 41 (KWE 258), 48 (KWE 251), 49 (KWE 252) and 50 (KWE 254). The intervening numbers 42-47 were occupied by similarly Weymann-bodied Regent IIs ex London Transport (HGC 233, 222, 227, 228, 219 and 225 respectively).”
Stephen Ford
22/03/17 – 06:11
As a one-tome Grimbarian, I remember STL2692 as Grimsby No. 47, bought in 1955 with five other STLs to replace trolleybuses on the 10 route. Dundee was the only buyer of this batch of STLs to convert them to preselector gearboxes. HGC 225 served her initial Grimsby years in a crimson lake and cream livery, after the 1957 combination of the Grimsby and Cleethorpes operations, her colours were various permutations of blue and cream.
Mark Evans
12/01/19 – 08:25
As conjectured earlier, it was for the Dundee tram-replacement fleet that some of these London Transport Regent II were converted to pre-selector transmission. A Buses Extra article detailed the changes. I believe all the gearboxes were reconditioned, previously fitted to pre-war Dundee buses in process of withdrawal.
Stephen Allcroft
15/01/19 – 06:55
Thanks, Stephen A for the information, so it was Dundee who swapped the gearboxes for pre-selectors. I understand the post-war O661 Regent II was not offered with such a gearbox but the pre-war model (just Regent, not Regent I) was. I believe the gear selection was by means of a conventional type gear stick which rose from the floor rather than a steering column mounted unit although I’m not sure if this was universal.
Stephen says the gearboxes were reconditioned units salvaged from pre-war buses. It would be interesting to know which method of selection was employed, whichever it was, it made Dundee’s conversions unique as Regent IIs.
Chris Barker
16/01/19 – 07:19
My recollection of all the London Transport pre-war pre-selective buses (I regard the first RT’s as being Wartime) I travelled on as having conventional floor-mounted gearlevers.
I never came across a pre-war Daimler CO bus, but imagine that they would have had the simpler type of steering column lever which the CW types did in the war.
Chris Hebbron
18/01/19 – 06:34
My CO bus has the same lever set-up as CW
Roger Burdett
19/01/19 – 06:24
Thx, Roger B.
“Why change something so simple?” might well have been Daimler’s attitude and it certainly continued with their CV’s.
I had a neighbour when I lived at Morden, in Daimlerland, who’d worked both at both Putney and Merton Garages and felt that Daimler’s simple gearchange was preferable to the RT’s one.
Chris Hebbron
20/01/19 – 06:57
The later Daimler CVs (e.g. Derby Corporation’s fleet of CVG6s and no doubt many others) had an H-gate selector, similar to the AEC set-up, on the left side of the steering column (as opposed to the earlier quadrant type selector mounted on the right).
Stephen Ford
20/01/19 – 06:58
The quadrant type of gear selector used on Daimler’s CO, CW and early CV series was the same as on Daimler cars. The CV changed to the AEC type around 1953-5.
Peter Williamson
21/01/19 – 07:12
The preselector version of the Guy Arab had a floor mounted gear lever; Guy built its own preselector gearbox.
Roger Cox
24/08/22 – 06:36
I remember these 10 STLs arriving in Dundee country area green along with 30 Cravens-bodied RTs for tram replacement. The RTs with roofbox route number displays were instantly recognisable and were known locally as ‘London Buses’. Their moquette upholstery in place of the leather on the indigenous buses was also a recognition point once you were aboard. But the STLs looked so similar to the home-grown variety that none of my schoolmates would believe me that they were ex-LT. Their HGC series registrations made it obvious, but that convinced no-one! Very frustrating.
George
26/08/22 – 05:57
My only experience and sight of one was on Epsom Day in about 1950/51, when I took a ride back to Morden on one. It was the newest bus I saw that day, among all the other almost forgotten museum pieces raked out from dusty corners of garages. And a long way from its home garage in Hertfordshire!
It was also the only AEC I travelled on with this Weymann’s bodywork: the others all being Leylands.
Chris Hebbron
29/08/22 – 06:30
A caption in ABC London Transport Buses either 1961 or 1962 (I’m not sure but it was at the time when only a few trolleybuses were still in service) stated that London Transport took delivery of provincial Regents and for convenience designated them as STL’s. Maybe a reader still has copy of the book and could give more information.
Andy Hemming
25/09/22 – 06:35
Here is a shot taken on an HCVC Brighton Rally in the early 1970s of HGC 225 as No.47 in the livery of Grimsby-Cleethorpes Joint Transport Committee.
Roger Cox
29/09/22 – 06:09
Thanks for that, Roger. I wonder if she’s still around. That’s a strange roof layout – anyone know the reason for it?
Chris Hebbron
30/09/22 – 05:43
I know NGT had some of these, three I think, and NGT’s depot at Percy Main had 29.
That was out of a fleet of 105 vehicles, which included 12 coaches, and 6 single deckers, so over a third of the D/D fleet.
They were all delivered between 1945 & 1948, and were withdrawn between 1958 & 1960.
They all had 0661 engines, and all had crash boxes.
Ronnie Hoye
30/09/22 – 05:49
Chris H, I may be wrong but I believe the strange roof layout, not normally seen, was simply because the framework was on the outside of the single skin roof. I have vague recollections of riding on Midland General’s Weymann bodied Regent IIIs and remember seeing the exposed framework of the side panels from the interior. I’m not saying the bodies were meant to be lightweight at all but I’m pretty sure most of the panelling was single skinned.
Chris Barker
01/10/22 – 05:32
Sorry about the typo in my post chaps and chaperones.
It should have been NCT (Newcastle) had three and not NGT written twice.
Re the unusual roof.
The 29 in the Tynemouth & Wakefields fleet at Percy Main came in two batches. If memory serves, the first were the same as the one in the photo, with the frame on the outside, but the next batch (two years on) were double skinned.
This was just after the war, and my feeling is that he exposed frame may have been due to material shortages rather than weight saving.
Ronnie Hoye