…of vehicles pre-1970
Copyright Ray Soper
This shot is from the Ray Soper gallery contribution titled “Smith’s Luxury Coaches of Reading” click on the title if you would like to view his Gallery and comments.
The shot is shown here for indexing purposes but please feel free to make any comment regarding this vehicle either here or on the gallery.
Copyright Ray Soper
This shot is from the Ray Soper gallery contribution titled “Smith’s Luxury Coaches of Reading” click on the title if you would like to view his Gallery and comments.
The shot is shown here for indexing purposes but please feel free to make any comment regarding this vehicle either here or on the gallery.
Before this bus arrived at Samuel Ledgard it was owned by Super Coaches of Upminster who acquired it from of course London Transport. The fleet number whilst at London Transport was RT 4265.
All the information for this entry came from Peter Goulds excellent website, I hope he doesn’t mind, to visit his site click here
Bus tickets issued by this operator can be viewed here.
KHCT had a large second hand batch of these RT types from 1962 to 1970 they were ex St. Helens Corporation, this bus was D63 in there fleet. There is a preserved St Helens RT type fleet no D67 and a good picture of it is here. There is also a picture here of ex fleet no D70 whilst in service with Norfolk’s of Nayland.
It’s amazing how a different livery and adverts can almost camouflage such an iconic vehicle as an RT. It looks superb in KHCT’s colours and the streamlined style suits it. It’s a shame, though, about the missing rear wheel spats and painted-over front wheel chrome rings to complete the idyll.
Thx for the post. AS for the advert, “What we want is Watneys” and ‘Red Barrel” keg bitter come to mind!
Chris Hebbron
In 1937-8 London Transport got together with AEC to jointly design and produce a new double deck chassis with AECs large 9.6 litre oil engine with air operated gearbox and brakes. From what I can gleam the prototype entered service in 1938 as ST1140 (EYK 396) but it had a body taken from a scrapped Leland Titan TD 111 or 118 seems to be a bit of a dispute on that. But in July 1939 it was given a brand new body and was then renumbered RT1. London Transport then ordered 150 more, RT2-151 which were delivered by the time production ceased in 1940 because of the war those 150 were bodied by London Transport themselves.
I have another dispute here and that is by the end of production in 1954 according to one source nearly 7000 RTs had been delivered to London Transport but another source says that the highest fleet number was 4825 that’s a difference of 2000 or so. Maybe the 7000 is for total build but I do not think there was that many delivered new to other operators do you know leave a comment.
There were 4825 RT’s but the RT Family included RTL’s and RTW’s so the figure of nearly 7000 is probably correct.
Anonymous
The RTL was a Leyland Titan PD2/1 chassis with Leyland O.600 engine but with AEC preselect gearbox and bodied by Park Royal 1149, Metro-Cammell 450 and Weymann 31 all to a London Transport design.
The RTW was as the RTL except they were PD2/3 and all bodied with 8 foot wide bodies instead of the normal 7′ 6″ and all 500 were bodied by Leyland.
There was also the SRT which were 1939 AEC Regent STLs rebodied with brand new RT bodies there was 160 built in total.
So that makes 4825 RTs 1630 RTLs 500 RTWs which makes 6955 so there is the approx 7000 and if you add in the 160 SRTs this will give a total of 7115.
Spencer
New 7/12/1952
A.E.C. Regent III RT 0961 Chassis No: 6758
Engine Type: AEC 6cyl. A204 9.6ltr
Weymann H30/26R
Body No: W269
Entered Ledgards service 5th November 1963
Withdrawn: 14/10/67
Sold To Dunn (A1 Service) 02/68
Withdrawn: 11/71
Terry Malloy
What a nostalgic shot-a Sammie RT alongside some of West Yorkshire’s finery, and set in Chester Street bus station. There always seemed to be an RT parked up either there or in Otley bus station, as they were so numerous in the fleet. They had a lovely reassuring tickover, plus a delightfully tuneful transmission (fluid flywheel/pre-selector gearbox) and seemed to have an aura of indestructibility about them. Shame West Yorkshire didn’t keep a few running after takeover. It would have been interesting to see some in red and cream, almost harking back to their London days….
Brendan Smith
Brendan it is not generally known that, in the very hurried arrangements for the WYRCC takeover of Samuel Ledgard, West Yorkshire fleet numbers were allocated for most if not all of the Samuel Ledgard vehicles. The entire RT class, at least one of which (MLL 920) received a new C of F in the final week, were to be DA 1 – 34. I was lucky enough to be the first driver of the very first Otley Depot RT – NXP 864, RT 4611. It was overhauled and ready for use in the garage one Saturday night and I just couldn’t contain my excitement so pestered the late garage man to let us use it for the last two trips of our late turn. 8.10pm Otley – Leeds, 8.55pm Leeds – Otley, 9.50pm Otley – Leeds, 10.35pm Leeds – Otley.
As expected it swallowed up the long ascent of the A660 to Bramhope in very fine style and comfort.
Chris Youhill
12/01/17 – 11:21
I think one or two comments on Spencer’s post (above) are appropriate.
The chassis of the RTLs and RTWs differed from PD2/1s and PD2/3s in having a longer wheelbase (16’4″ instead of 16’3″) and air brakes (instead of vacuum) – there may have been other differences. I don’t think Leyland ever called the RTL/RTW chassis PD2/1 or PD2/3.
There were 32 RTLs supplied new with Weymann bodies (RTL1307, 1601-31), making the RTL total 1,631 and the RT/RTL/RTW total 6,956.
The SRTs came about by virtue of there being more new bodies available than chassis, so 160 ‘RT’ bodies were placed on existing STL chassis to make the SRT class. When the supply of chassis caught up the SRT bodies were transferred to new RT chassis, but those are included in the RT total of 4,825 – so to get the total of ‘RT’ family buses up to 7,115/6 you’re counting the SRT bodies twice.
David Call
13/01/17 – 06:41
The picture shows MXX 148 on Ledgard’s longest stage carriage route, one taken over with B & B Tours in the mid 1930s. The destination shown is “Bradford via Otley and Manningham Lane” and the display for the return journey is just visible “Harrogate via Manningham Lane and Otley.” I was always surprised that Menston Village was not mentioned, this being the chief “attraction” of the service compared with the WYRCC direct 53.
Chris Youhill
13/01/17 – 06:42
David Call is right about the why of the SRT but although the frame modifications were extensive, amounting to a complete re-profiling of the side members of the chassis,what was not upgraded was the engine (7.7) gearbox (spring-operated) and brakes (vacuum).
Stephen Allcroft
13/01/17 – 06:42
I agree with David in his view that the RTL and RTW classes were not classified as members of the PD2 breed. Ken Glazier, whose knowledge on London Transport matters I have always found to be impeccable, gives the RTL as type 7RT and the RTW as type 6RT. The SRT was purely a stop gap to present a modern looking fleet in the early ‘fifties when chassis deliveries lagged behind bodywork supplies. In typical LT fashion, the STL type chassis under the RT type body was ‘modernised’ at ridiculous expense, and the whole project foundered when it became apparent that the brakes were decidedly incapable of stopping the bus effectively. By that time, chassis supplies were outpacing body deliveries, which is why LT turned to Cravens and Saro, so the whole SRT programme was a fiasco in every way. As for the 7000 total figure for RT/RTL/RTW classes, OK, but there were never that many in service at the same time.
Roger Cox
13/01/17 – 10:09
……and they had to move the fuel tank to the other side of the vehicles too, Stephen! The other tragedy was that the STL’s selected for conversion to SRT’s were the 1939 15STL16’s, the most modern STL’s in the fleet and pretty-well up to RT standards in many respects, having automatic chassis lubrication, amongst others. And why not, for London Transport had hoped that this batch of STL’s would be RT’s which, in the end, turned out to be wishful thinking.
Chris Hebbron
Photo by M Standeven
This is a RT type Regent as its chassis number was O961 186 a provincial Regent III would have a chassis number beginning O9612 000 the 2 stood for series 2. A good way to tell an RT from a Provincial Regent is a more or less flat bonnet top with “T” handles on the bonnet side. The RT also had a more rounder shaped front mudguards that allowed you to see the spring hanger on the drivers side. Douglas Corporation only had two RT type Regents the other four that were delivered in 1947 were of the Provincial type. This bus was in service with Douglas Corporation for 24 years being withdrawn in 1971 not sure if it went for scrap or preservation being a bit of a rarity.
16/11/15 – 10:16
Sadly, after being withdrawn ‘for use as a source of spares’, both 54 and 55 were sent to a local scrap deader and dismantled. The next batch, 56-59 was subsequently sent to the same scrapyard, but 56 and 58 were sold on for further use. 58 survives at the Jurby Transport Museum, but in an unrestored state.
M Jones
30/11/16 – 07:05
Apart from the preserved example at Whythall do any CAMELS survive?
Charlie Watson
11/12/17 – 07:35
I know this is slightly off topic but does anyone know the following – the differences between Douglas Corporation bus routes 11, 12 and 16, 17, 18 and 19? I know 11 and 12 ran from the Bus Station to Nobles Park and the 18 to Willaston but via which roads?
Paul Mason
12/12/17 – 08:37
In 1962 (I think it was!) the 18 set out via Victoria Street, Prospect Hill, Bucks Road and Woodbourne Road. After that I have no idea as we alighted at Woodbourne Road/Derby Road. I believe this route was previously served mainly by the 10, which was destined “Upper Douglas via Bucks Road”.
Stephen Ford
01/02/18 – 07:07
Paul, I’ve listings of DCT routes for 1948, 1950, and 1957 – the only year in which 11/12/16/17/18/19 are all running is 1950 . . .
10: Victoria Pier – Bucks Road – York Road
11: Victoria Pier – Bucks Road – York Road – Broadway – Harris Promenade (Church Road) [summer]
12: Victoria Pier – Bucks Road – York Road – Noble’s Park
16: Victoria Pier – Bucks Road – St Ninian’s
17: Victoria Pier – Bucks Road – Thorny Road – Tromode [service ran outside Douglas Corporation boundary into “Extended Area”, which required road service licences]
18: Victoria Pier – Bucks Road – St Ninian’s – Willaston
19: Lord St – North Quay – Peel Road – Pulrose . . . so this service was not related to the Bucks Road group.
Philip Rushworth
Photograph by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
I have dated this bus by its registration and as KLB started being used in July 1949 so I thought it was a fairly safe guess. I have also stated that its original body was buy Saunders who built a batch of 250 RTs fleet numbers RT1152-1401 between 1948-50. After the war AEC produced RT chassis quicker than Park Royal and Weymann who were the allocated body builders could supply bodies so two other companies Saunders Engineering, Anglesey, Wales and Craven, Sheffield, Yorkshire were used to prevent a backlog. I recently acquired a copy of “British Bus Fleets” London Transport 1965 edition and I thought you may be interested in the opening comment about the RT bodywork I quote below.
Because of London Transports rigid standardisation scheme, most RT and RTL bodies are interchangeable. When a chassis as passed through the Aldenham overhaul works (about every four years) it is very rarely re-fitted with the body it bore previously, except the buses with GB plates.
So it would be fairly safe to say that the bus above as a different body when this photograph was taken than when it was first delivered, another little bit of evidence is that when it was first delivered it had a roof top route number box.
Bus tickets issued by this operator can be viewed here.
RT bodies were jig built so that they could be interchanged – the jigs supplied by London Transport to Park Royal and Weymann, the major suppliers. Metro-Cammell also received jigs and I believe Saunders-Roe did.
Metro-Cammell and Weymann were entirely separate companies linked only by a marketing company MCW, rather like the milk marketing board. There were always minor differences between the products of each factory.
Cravens bodies were not jig built and were not really like the rest of the RT family. After their seven year certificate if fitness was up, they were disposed of as non-standard, as were the Saunders-Roe RTs whose construction was non-standard.
David Oldfield
The Saunders-Roe RT’s were difficult to distinguish from ‘normal RT’s, perhaps because they borrowed an RT to design their own bodywork from scratch, but the Craven’s ones were the Standard Craven bodyframe ‘tweaked’ to look as near to an RT as was possible. However, for a start, the bodywork had five bays instead of four; the rear of the bus, from about midway upwards, curved towards the front, making it look hunchbacked, and the rear emergency window was smaller. The front profile was subtly different, flatter horizontally than was usual. The fronts were an improvement on the normal design, the rear not, the sides neutral. This was not the first case of ‘tweaking’ bodywork for London Transport’s needs: Leyland ‘tweaked’ their TD4 bodies (pre-war STD class) to look like an STL and, to the layman, it did.
Chris Hebbron
I don’t know who might have taken this shot, but it was probably after 1949. The clue is the bus stops, which in 1949 Victoria still sported the LPTB design, which in turn was from the General stops with the bar circle and route numbers in large type.
RHB
The Saunders-Roe bodies were instantly recognisable from the offside by one little detail – the route number stencil was set further to the rear of the staircase panel than on the standard bodies. Personally I thought that the Cravens bodies were extremely pleasing in their own right and always liked them very much – quite a number were sold to Dundee Corporation, among many other operators, for further service. The postwar STD class, all Leyland PD1s, were very minimally “tweaked” and were a fine sight in London Transport livery and even retained hinged cab doors. Splendid indeed though the standardised RT family concept was, the exceptions were a fascinating subject, and we mustn’t forget the unhappy SRTs which I also found very appealing indeed, although their vast differences were largely mechanical rather than in body detail.
Chris Youhill
This photo was most probably taken in the mid-1960s – confirmed by the presence of the Routemasters and the advert for a BOAC flight to New York by VC10 in the background. Those were the days!
Paul Haywood
I am fairly certain that this photo was taken at some time in 1966. Here is the evidence:
The original Saunders body had a front roof route number box, whereas the body shown in the photo does not. The bus in the photograph has either a Park Royal or Weymann body, received on overhaul in July 1961. So the photo must have been taken after July 1961.
Before 1964 the Route Blinds consisted of upper-case lettering. The photo clearly shows lower-case lettering. So the photo must have been taken during or after 1964.
Bus Route 52A was operated by Edgware garage. RT1344 was transferred into Edgware in January 1963. It remained there until 1969 before spending a few years as a trainer. So the photo must have been taken at some date between 1964 and 1969.
Bus Route 52A was only operated (in this form) from 23rd January 1966 to 31st December 1966. So the photo must have been taken at some date in 1966.
Furthermore, Route 52A (in this form) only operated on Sundays ! (six RT’s from Edgware and seven Routemasters from Willesden) The bus was scrapped in May 1971. I hope that the above is of interest !
John Perthen
Further to my previous comment, this photo was taken at Victoria Bus Terminus outside the (then) Southern Region British Rail station.
John Perthen
06/02/11 – 09:15
I lived in Borehamwood until 1963, I am sure I travelled this route (52A rather than 52), during my ‘bus spotting days’, with the Ian Allen books, whilst using a Red Rover ticket. I lived not more than 200 metres from the route in Manor Way. I know the route 52 was one I used many times to finally get home after a day uptown spotting.
Rob
09/08/11 – 17:49
I have a builders plate from an RT which was given to me by my brother-in-law back in the late 60s early 70s, it is the normal Weymanns plate fitted over the conductors station on the platform, he was a driver at Watford garage and “acquired” it for me as I was also a driver for Bristol Omnibus Company in Bristol and a keen transport fan. What I am wondering is, can you give a rough estimate of the vehicle it came from? The series of patent numbers on the plate are as follows, 447826, 498947, PROV.8954/49. It may be a ridiculous hope, but you never know, thanking you in anticipation.
Dave Knapp
10/08/11 – 06:40
The mentioning of the non standard RTs reminds me that J J Longstaff of Mirfield had at different times two Saunders and one of them had a top box. The joint service between Dewsbury and Mirfield operated by themselves and Joseph Wood and Yorkshire Woollen was numbered at least by YWD as service 11 so number 11 appeared in the box only for YWD to complain that it was their number so was hurriedly painted out.
Philip Carlton
30/03/12 – 07:16
Like the vast majority of London buses since General days, this RT not only has a different body it also has a different chassis. The system pertained until about 1983 after which it was discontinued when vehicle testing was re-(dis)organised by the Thatcher government.
Looking closely at the photo of RT 1344 at Victoria I spy that the 52A route number is being displayed. At the time of the photo, RT 1344 was allocated to Edgware and I drove it on a number of occasions. The photo must have been taken on a Sunday as EW only worked on the route on that day and the 52A blind is incorrect as the route ceased to exist after 2nd January 1962 when it was superseded by the 292. That was the day that Colindale trolleybus depot closed and we were transferred to various bus garages such as Hendon, Crcklewood and Edgware. The 52A route number was still on the EW blinds up until they were withdrawn from the garage in 1971.
Alan Bond
10/09/22 – 05:41
According to the comprehensive Ian”s Bus Stop website, the original Saunders body of this bus was replaced at Aldenham in 1961 by a standard 3RT8 body, though whether Park Royal or Weymann is not specified. However, given the Aldenham practice of simply and swiftly attaching registrations and fleet identities on to vehicles as they emerged at the end of the overhaul line, in all probability the bus depicted has no relationship at all with the Saunders bodied bus that originally bore the number RT 1344. In 1966 RT 1344 went through Aldenhan again and “reappeared” as a standard Park Royal bodied 3RT8. The only accurate method of tracing the bus histories of the LT fleet would be by tracking down chassis numbers. The Saunders body, which had a different frame construction method from the Park Royal and Weymann types, was very highly regarded by the London Transport engineers which is why, despite its outmoded roofbox style, the examples stayed in service for a full service life. I am pretty certain that no Saunders body ever had its roofbox removed by London Transport, but, this being OBP, perhaps someone knows differently.
Roger Cox
11/09/22 – 05:55
I have found a record in the LT archive showing that RT1344 came into Aldenham for overhaul in 1966 with body no. 8529, which was by Park Royal. So we can say with certainty that whether the RT1344 in the photograph was the product of Aldenham ’61 or Aldenham ’66, it had a Park Royal body.
Peter Williamson
Photographer unknown – if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
Here is a nice shot of a couple of ex London Transport Regent RTs in service with Samuel Ledgard the fleet number of the one in the foreground was RT 4410 unfortunately I can not make out what the registration of the one behind. I think the Samuel Ledgard livery makes the RT look better than the London Transport more or less overall single solid colour especially on black and white shots. The Samuel Ledgard fleet was taken over by West Yorkshire Road Car in October 1967 but this vehicle was not operated by them, did it go to scrap or was it sold on, it would be interesting to know what happened to the Ledgard RTs, if you know please leave a comment.
Bus tickets issued by this operator can be viewed here.
NXP 764 carries the body of RT 307 registration HLX 124 built 1947.
This was done as part of a 4 year service overhaul whilst in London.
Further details for NXP 764:
New: 1st December 1953
Purchased by Ledgard: 25th May 1963
Chassis No: 7491
Body No: L 156
In stock with Ledgard until the end it was sold to W. North at Sherburn in Elmet April 1968 (dealer).
No further info after that.
Terry Malloy
NXP 764 was disposed of by North’s to Johnson, Goldthorpe, a dealer, in June 1969 sadly for scrap.
The disposal of the Ledgard RTs was very complicated indeed but many saw further service both in this country and in Belgium and Holland.
NXP 764 was the first RT to enter service from Armley Depot, and NXP 864 similarly at Otley – where, on a Saturday late turn, I persuaded the garage man to let us take it on its maiden voyage – 8.10pm Otley to Leeds and back twice. Of course it was all newly ready for service but otherwise would not have gone out probably until Monday morning.
I think its not generally known that all the Ledgard RT bodies were old ones from around 1947, originally fitted with roof route number boxes – the very neat “operation scars” where these were removed by SL can clearly be seen on photos. During overhauls they were fitted, of course, to chassis of every age ranging from 1947 (HLW 181 etc) to 1954 (eg OLD 705).
The London Transport policy was to withdraw the oldest bodies first- understandable. Having said this, they were all without exception if first class order – a good looking and well constructed design indeed.
Some good news to this very day – LYR 915 is still beautifully preserved and rallied, although in its original green LT Country Area livery.
Chris Youhill
Having sent some bus ticket shots to the “Old Bus Tickets” website I was looking at the ‘Old Bus Photo’ section (again) and thought you might like to add a picture of probably my all time favourite bus of my youth. The Birmingham Corporation Transport Park Royal bodied Regent III (RT type) GOE 631 Fleet number 1631. There were only 15 (GOE 631-645) purchased in 1947 and most of them did sterling work until withdrawal in 1963/4. Sadly none were saved for preservation, this is from an original publicity photo I own, and shows the very attractive lines of this vehicle – at its best just after introduction into service.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Nigel Edwards
Why, I wondered, such an old fashioned body design?
It’s not, except for…. that raked back windscreen, the high-level driver’s door, the narrow lower deck windows and that funny mid-band a foot higher than it should be..then there’s those wobbly-looking front wheels and the lop-sided headlamps: If the “dipped” one is on the left, why is it higher than the right one? No doubt that’s how we always did it…
Joe
It’s not so much an old-fashioned design as the lack of “joined up thinking”.
The standard London Transport RT was designed as a whole vehicle but when provincial bodies were fitted, what was standard in the provinces didn’t properly marry with a chassis not generally available outside London and, indeed, designed specifically for London.
For the most part, the Birmingham body would not look out of place on a provincial Regent III – and would have looked more modern than the standard Birmingham body on more usual Crossley, Daimler or Guy chassis which originated pre WW II.
David Oldfield
08/03/11 – 15:22
I have to admit that until now it had not occurred to me that these 15 vehicles looked ‘wrong’. Certainly they looked seriously different to the rest of Birmingham’s post-war fleet but to me they were all the more likeable because of it! One possible reason for the odd looking front-end is that at the time Birmingham were very much into the idea of sloping windscreens to reduce internal reflection (an idea much favoured by Midland Red at the time) – although I don’t quite see the truth of that in a half-cab vehicle with the blinds lowered behind the driver at night.
It is worth noting that when Park Royal supplied a further 50 bodies, this time on Leyland PD2/1 chassis (2181-2230, JOJ 181-230), the raked windscreen was gone and the result was a joy to behold. They looked right!
5055HA
26/08/11 – 07:08
The correct title of the undertaking, was Birmingham City Transport, I remember these buses well, on short workings of route 11 the Outer Circle, between the Fox and Goose at Ward End and the Bull at Stechford on the way to school. These buses I believe were originally ordered for delivery in 1941/2 but received after the war ended.
I disagree with David Oldfield, these buses always looked dated compared to the rest of the post war fleet especially the new look ones. These buses were built to BCT specifications, the other Park Royal bodied buses, Leyland PD2s with flat screens were bought off the shelf to the body builders standard specs! These were magnificent vehicles. One survives fleet number 2222 (JOJ 222) and is currently being restored at the Aston Manor Transport Museum in Birmingham.
The Regents spent virtually all their lives at Acocks Green garage, and were non-standard with air brakes, air gear changes and wind up windows plus other unusual features. I believe 3 of the batch worked out of Barford Street depot early on in their lives on route 8 the Inner Circle.
Like all BCT buses these were kept spotlessly clean and excellently maintained, never a dented panel in sight, shame the operators of today do not value their buses so highly!
This is a great site and I will send some photos of that other great operator from my childhood in Birmingham – Midland Red.
Robert Hayles
26/08/11 – 18:07
It might be the LATE Aston Manor Transport Museum, since it has just closed after an interminable wrangle over high rent for the buildings and an exorbitant price the council have quoted for the purchase of it.
Let’s hope the matter can be resolved. Were the museum to continue with the rental option, it would have to charge £8 a time for entry! If it’s not resolved, they have to be out by end-December.
Chris Hebbron
03/12/11 – 07:05
1631-1645 were very different from the standard Birmingham bus and were reputably bought as replacements for AEC Regents that were going to be ordered, but never were for delivery in 1941. RT 19 was demonstrated to BCT between 7/6/41 and 7/7/41 and these RTs were the result. They spent their lives at Acocks Green garage, although the last four were allocated to Barford Street in 1948 for a rather unsuccessful stint on the busy Inner Circle route. The bodies were more or less the standard four-bay Park Royal thin pillared body of the time but were heavily modified with BCT fixtures and fittings. The RT chassis had air-brakes which BCT engineers did not like and the braking standards on the batch were always dubious. This resulted in the buses having a wide range of brake modifications including being fitted with disc brakes. They were lovely to ride-in but a lot of Acocks Green drivers did not like them because of their poor stopping performance. By the time they were taken out of service, no two of the fifteen buses were the same with experiments with exhauster brakes, sealed radiators, Monocontrol gearboxes and straight through exhaust pipes. They were used on the 44 and 31 and 32 routes, but were only used on short workings on the Outer Circle 11 route as i, they had none-standard staircases which were not considered safe for passengers not already used to them and ii, if drivers had to be relieved by one from another garage which worked on the 11 route, the chances were that they were not passed to drive the RTs! Curiously enough the last one to be withdrawn, 1641, was the only postwar bus to be withdrawn by BCT on Leap Year Day, in this case in 1964.
David Harvey
03/12/11 – 14:31
Thx, David, for that fascinating background information. The braking shortcomings are intriguing, since London traffic conditions was equally as challenging as Birmingham’s, if not more. I wonder if the bodies were heavier than London Transport’s 7.5 tons. Although the 8′ wide RTW’s were heavier, I am not aware that their brakes were beefed up! A mystery indeed.
Chris Hebbron
03/12/11 – 16:40
Strange – I am sure I read somewhere that contemporary Daimlers, of which Birmingham had many, were notoriously weak in the braking department. On the other hand, AEC Regent IIIs (whether RT or the provincial type) seemed to find very wide acceptance throughout the land. Many municipal operators went back again and again for repeat orders. To a mere user, they always seemed utterly competent.
Stephen Ford
04/12/11 – 07:42
Birmingham’s Guys were the ones which suffered from brake fade especially on the Bristol Road routes operated by Selly Oak. It was for this reason that eventually all new look front buses had their front wings shortened. The buses with the best brakes were Crossleys, but these could have very heavy steering if it wasn’t greased properly. The braking on Daimler CVG6 et al were considered to be good, though the exposed radiator ones always seemed to be sharper on the brakes that the new look front ones. We thought at the time that it was just a more sophisticated system!
The AEC Regent 0961 RTs weighed 7 tons 16 cwt but brakes were always a problem.
David Harvey
30/03/12 – 07:11
Re Birmingham RTs – A friend who drove them says that the brakes were fine. Early on they had a problem with RP automatic adjusters causing the brakes to stick on but the problem was solved with a slight adjustment to brake shoe clearances. A similar problem cropped up with the Halifax examples but apparently St Helens reported no problems.
Alan Bond
13/06/12 – 17:02
When I worked in Birmingham from 1961 to 1963, I lodged at Hall Green. These were my favourite buses at the time, especially when 1632, or 1643 with its lovely roaring sound, were on the last 32 departure from town in the evening. They were very comfortable, and had an excellent turn of speed on the uphill stretches. Such a pity that none survive, or that a model is not available. The model of 1632 which has been produced is a travesty!
Harold Blythe
05/07/12 – 17:49
They were always my favourites too, and I often travelled on them on the No 1 route. When I was little, I especially liked the front downstairs passenger window, because it was lower than on all the other buses, so I could see out straight ahead over the bonnet.
Richard
28/01/13 – 13:31
As a schoolboy in 1957 I remember asking why these ungainly, gaunt, older looking buses were only on the (short) 1A route to Acocks Green and I was told that they had small fuel tanks. Maybe just a jarn to shut me up.
David Grove
29/01/13 – 15:22
David, These ‘RT’ types were “confined” to Acocks Green Garage because only their drivers were ‘passed-out’ to drive them. They were occasionally to be seen on the Outer Circle 11 route but usually only on ‘Service Extra’ at busy times and short turns that did not require driver changeovers from other garages.
Nigel Edwards
31/01/13 – 06:07
I think I have only ever seen one of these in service so I can’t comments on their ride ect but I do find it odd that they had brake problems since they were air braked. At this time BCT and BMMO for that matter had a fixation with reflections in wind screens and both operators had sloping windows fitted which in the case of BCT tended to make their buses look older than they were, the exception being the “tin fronts” which had a sloping screen but inset into the body and having vertical screen pillars. Whilst on the subject of Daimler CV brakes I am currently involved with the restoration of GEA 174, an ex West Bromwich Daimler based at and owned by the Black Country Living Museum, some of our group members have made several references to West Bromwich having problems with the brakes on these when they were new yet another contributor rightly points out that BCT had problems with their Guys in the braking department but not with their Daimlers, odd don’t you think?
William Parker
21/07/13 – 14:55
I worked out of Acocks Green Garage as a bus driver from 1959 till 1978 and drove these Buses many times. They were quicker BUT with Air brakes were much harder to stop. I remember driving down Olton Boulevard West and Trying to stop before turning into Gospel Lane but finished up by Warwick Road 100 Yards further on. I was young and impulsive in those days.
Maurice (MOSS) Leather
10/03/15 – 16:35
I remember these buses as I was an apprentice engineer with BCT from 1950 to 1956 and a fitter in 1957-1960 after doing service in the RAF National service. When I was doing my training on the engine bench I remember building an AEC 9.6 diesel engine and I was really impressed by all the running gear, it was a well built in line diesel engine. In 1959 I remember a problem with the chassis on one bus as it had to have a special plate welded either side which I made up for the job and it was inspected by the works Superintendent Mr Fred Keyes.
Reg Humpage
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
25/12/15 – 08:08
Apparently, the fifteen “Regents” were BCTs only postwar double-deckers to have their bodies lifted. This was to replace AEC chassis bolts with the standard BCT style!!!
David Harvey
Copyright Victor Brumby
Two weeks ago my contribution for the ex London Transport STL2117 was posted on this site, the shot was taken in April 1958. At about the same time that shot was taken, spiffing new RTs were coming on stream, and here is a shot of KGU 191 RT2262 and new NLE 826 RT3719 at the old Stevenage railway station route terminus. Would I be right is saying that NLE 826 RT3719 was one of many stored new at Loughton garage for ages, awaiting entry to service as NLE was 03/53 – 11/53, presumably because RT production had exceeded requirement?
Copyright Victor Brumby
Or was OLD 528 RT4742 one of those last entrants to the fleet? (In Green Line rig, unusually……) Seen according to my notes at Hitchin along with AEC Regal IV LUC 225 RF25 which was last in the first batch of 25 Regals delivered at the 27ft 6in length and were classed as Private Hire Coaches for sightseeing tours and the like. In the mid 50s ten of the batch 16-25 were transferred to Green Line. Unfortunately the glazed sightseeing roof panels can not be seen in this shot.
Photographs and Copy contributed by Victor Brumby
27/01/12 – 17:37
According to the vehicle histories on “Ian’s Bus Stop” website, RT 3719 entered service at Windsor (WR) garage in May 1953, and transferred to Hitchin garage in 1957. (//www.countrybus.org/)
His histories haven’t got as far as the 47xx sequence, but RT 4742 was (according to Ken Glazier’s “London Buses in the 1950s”) one of those delivered straight to storage in 1954 and entering service between March 1958 and August 1959. Ken Blacker’s definitive work on the RT class lists dates of entry to service, but I do not have a copy to hand.
The appearance of (bus livery) RTs on Green Line coach services was not that uncommon – many routes at that time had one or two peak hour duplicates, and most routes required relief buses particularly on summer Sundays – to cater for Londoners visiting the countryside, and (where routes served new towns such as Stevenage) visits between new town residents and their friends and relatives still living in inner London.
The provision of a few RTs in semi Green Line livery (green central band, Green Line transfers between decks) at country bus garages to cater for this happened in 1960 (again, according to Ken Glazier’s book.)
There is more about Hitchin garage (closed 1959) here – //www.ampyx.org.uk/ – the building is still standing, although I understand there is a current planning application in which will involve demolition.
Jon
29/01/12 – 07:32
According to Ken Blacker’s RT book, RT4742 (OLD 528) was indeed one of those stored for the first few years of its life, finally entering service in March 1958, at SV (Stevenage, Fishers Green).
Bob Gell
27/08/12 – 07:58
Firstly can I say how pleased I was to see the photo of the RT’s at the old Stevenage Station, I can only just remember this Station, I was five when it moved, and new ‘AN’s were coming on stream. The other photograph of the Green Line RT is a real gem, as it is the only photograph I have seen, besides one in Ken Blackers ‘RT’ book of the first Stevenage depot, situated in a cul-de-sac off Fishers Green Road, behind the old Station which was in use as a temporary outstation of Hitchin & Hatfield until the new depot in Danestrete opened in 1959.
Alec Bright
06/11/12 – 06:46
Just a quick note to confirm that the building shown behind the RT is Stevenage Fisher’s Green, and not Hitchin. You will find a 1990s image of the garage with its curiously pitched and slanting roof span on my web page: //www.ampyx.org.uk/
The story unfolding in Hitchin today is complex, and the local historical society are still trying to persuade the planning authorities of the value of the structure. You may have seen coverage in BUSES an B&CP magazines.
By coincidence, the National (later UCOC) garage in Fishponds Road was demolished in September of this year.
I am shocked at how much revision of my historical pages is necessary. Thank you all for your comments and suggestions.
Jonathan Wilkins