Tag: AEC Regent V

Rochdale Regent Vs

Lancashire in the fifties and sixties. All that variety! Well, that is perhaps what most enthusiasts will think, but as one who was there at the time, I can tell you that it was merely a variety of Leyland Titans. Of the 27 pre-1968 municipal bus fleets in Lancashire, all but one operated PD-series Titans, over half of the fleets being completely dominated by the model.

The one exception was Rochdale Corporation, whose post war double-deck intake consisted of 110 AEC’s and 52 Daimlers. Coincidentally, the AEC’s were equally divided between the Regent Mark III and Mark V models. This article is about the latter, which were definitely not typical examples of the Regent V.

More than half of the eventual total were contained in the first batch. 268 – 297 (NDK 968 – 997) were delivered in the spring of 1956. This was the largest single batch of buses ever bought by Rochdale Corporation; they were model D2RA6G, a variant unique to Rochdale. The 6G at the end denoted that they were fitted with Gardener 6LW engines, an option which was available for a short while in the mid-fifties. The engine wasn’t the only unusual feature, as this batch were also fitted with air operated preselector gearboxes of the type which had been fitted to the Regent III. This unit was by now nominally obscelete. Coincidentally, the only other operators of Gardener engined Regent V’s, Glasgow and Aberdeen, also used preselector gearboxes, although not the same unit.

The next batch, 298 – 307 (ODK 698-707) were delivered in December 1956. These were also type D2RA6G, but this batch had the semi-automatic gearbox (AEC called it “Monocontrol”) which had superseded the preselector gearbox on the Regent V model. Thus it can be seen that Rochdale Corporation was one of the first operators to specify semi-automatic gearboxes as a matter of policy, rather than experiment.

308 – 318 (RDK 408 – 418) were delivered in the autumn of 1957, and these introduced the D2RA model. This version had the AEC AV590 engine, coupled with the semi-automatic gearbox, although when new, 318 had a fully-automatic gearbox (automonocontrol.)

The final quartet came in the autumn of 1958. These were 319 – 322 (TDK 319 – 322) and were again model D2RA. These differed from the previous batch in having platform doors.

All of these 55 new vehicles had Weymann bodies (H33/28R or H33/28RD) of the elegant 4-bay design which was developed from the classic post-war Weymann design already familiar on the Regent III model. This design is sometimes referred to (incorrectly I believe) as the Aurora. The design was enhanced by Rochdale’s magnificent royal blue and cream “streamlined” livery, complete with a lack of external advertising.

Naturally the delivery of 55 new buses (about a third of the fleet) resulted in these buses taking over most of Rochdale’s busiest routes. The TDK batch, with their platform doors, were an obvious case of keeping up with the next-door neighbours. They took over Rochdale’s share of service 21 to Bury via Heywood, operating jointly with Bury Corporation’s Leyland Titan PD3’s which had doors! The ODK’s and RDK’s were used on the other long, out of town routes such as the 9 (Ashton-Under-Lyne) and 16 (Bacup). In particular, the RDK batch took over Rochdale’s share of the very busy joint service 17 to Manchester via Middleton. Surprisingly, these buses ruled the roost on the 17 for twelve years; apart from one peak hour working associated with the express service 8, 308 – 318 monopolised Rochdale’s four workings on this route day in and day out! As I lived in Middleton I saw these buses every day, they really summed up the Rochdale fleet for me!

The first change to affect the Regent V’s was the appearance of external advertising on Rochdale’s buses, and for a while it seemed that every Rochdale bus I saw was telling me that People love Players.

In 1961, 277 (NDK 977) was repainted in an experimental livery of cream with a single royal blue band at upper-deck floor level. A couple of other buses (of different types) were repainted in a similar scheme, but with a lighter shade of blue, and this scheme was initially adopted by the Corporation; new AEC Reliances 16-20 (3116 – 20 DK) were delivered in this scheme. However, it was soon decided to adopt the scheme worn by 277. Once this had been decided, the Regent V’s were, surprisingly, repainted in reverse numerical order, starting with 322 and working downwards.

In 1963, Rochdale’s first batch of Daimler Fleetlines (323 – 327: 6323-7 DK) were delivered. Not surprisingly they entered service on the 21, on which Bury Corporation was already using Leyland Atlanteans! This obviously displaced the TDK batch, which no longer had a natural home; one was used most days on Rochdale’s share of service 24 to Manchester via Chadderton, which was limited stop for part of its length. The others were often to be found on the Bacup route, and sometimes on the 19 to Bury via Jericho.

During the 1960’s Rochdale bought a number of small batches of buses. By another coincidence, these consisted of 22 single-deckers, used for one man operation, and 22 double-deckers. The latter were all Daimler Fleetlines, and they displaced the Regent V’s from some other busy routes.
At some point during the sixties, 307(ODK 707) had its Gardner engine replaced by a non-standard AEC engine which had, I believe, been removed from a withdrawn Regent III.

In 1969, Rochdale’s buses were taken over by Selnec PTE. The first noticeable change was to the fleet numbers. I was surprised to find that the PTE’s new system did not take account of the different types of bus, but rather their origin; all of the ex-Rochdale double-deckers had 5900 added to their fleet numbers, so that the Regents became 6168 – 6222. Eventually the Mark V’s were repainted in Selnec’s white and orange livery, 6204 – 6 and 6215 being among the first recipients.

The next change resulted from the renumbering of Selnec’s routes into a common series, at the beginning of 1973. Rochdale’s stage services were numbered in the series 440 – 471, with special services (schools, works and hospital) from 876 to 894. Since Rochdale’s buses had single-track service number blinds, new blinds were fitted to these buses. Unfortunately the new blinds were smaller than the Corporation blinds they replaced, and the glass screens were masked down along the top and one side, giving a very unfortunate appearance. At the same time, Selnec replaced the destination blinds with new blinds which again were smaller than the old blinds, and again a lop sided look was adopted.

In the period 1970 – 1972 I spent many a Saturday afternoon riding on Rochdale’s Regents and Reliances. As with several other Pennine towns, Rochdale had several routes which took on a fairly rural outlook towards their outer ends. I developed several favourites, in particular 6168,6184 and 6202, which had superb Gardner engine sounds, coupled with the melodic contralto voice of the epicyclic gearboxes. Rochdale’s Regent V’s did not have that two-tone whine so typical of Regent V’s with the usual manual gearbox.

The first withdrawals of the type were of 6194 and 6199 early in 1973. 6187 became a driver training vehicle at this time. Regent V’s continued to be taken out of service in ones and twos, but it wasn’t until 1975 that withdrawals started in earnest, by which time many of the fleet had served for nineteen years.
One day in early 1975, I was amazed to see one of Rochdale’s Regent V’s working from Oldham Depot. At least four examples, 6178, 6184,6204 and 6216 were transferred to Oldham as a stop gap measure. Two months later, “Buses” reported that the first two of these, together with 6206, were working from the former Manchester Corporation Depot at Hyde Road. However, these vehicles were soon withdrawn, along with many of their sisters in Rochdale. One example, 6181 ended its career in spectacular manner by hitting the low bridge near Rochdale Station.

In 1975 my employers suffered financial difficulty and this, to cut a long story short, resulted in me joining the staff of what was now Greater Manchester Transport’s Rochdale Depot as a conductor. By this time there were only twenty Regent V’s in service at Rochdale, and one of these, my old favourite 6168, was withdrawn during my first week, before I had a chance to work on it.
Rochdale did not have the usual system of some buses working all day, and others just in the peak hours. In Rochdale in the mid-seventies, buses which had stayed in service during the daytime off-peak returned to the depot after the evening peak, and buses which had worked the morning and afternoon peak hours stayed out in the evenings. This resulted in older buses (i.e. Regent V’s) working until late at night.

On Saturdays there were no peak hours in the same way. One particularly interesting result of this was on service 24 to Manchester via Chadderton; if one Fleetline had stayed on the service for the full nine round trips on Saturday, it would have run out of fuel. Accordingly, at 1800 hours this bus changed places with a Regent which had spent the day on the very short service 442 to Spotland. Thus, the 24 was operated by Fleetlines all week except for the last three trips on Saturday evening which were operated by a Regent V! Not surprisingly, most of the crews hated this arrangement, but I couldn’t wait for my turn!

By now the RDK batch had lost its monopoly of service 17 workings, and any type of bus could appear on the route. On Monday – Friday evenings, the 1730,1930 and 2130 departures from Rochdale were regularly operated by a Regent V. However the 1910 and 2110 journeys were normally worked by a Selnec/GMT standard Fleetline, and the other two Rochdale buses on the route were older Fleetlines. I never understood this, but it happened regularly during my time on the Rochdale buses.

While working on the buses is a dream come true for enthusiasts, it also had its frustrations; very often I would see Regents working the same duties day after day, but on the day I was on that duty it would often turn out to be a Fleetline!!
During my training period I conducted several Regents under supervision. Usually my instructor watched the platform while I collected the fares. On my first “solo” trip on a Regent V I was busy collecting fares when I suddenly realised that the bus was standing still; the driver was waiting at a stop for me to ring the bell! All of the Regent V’s had strip bells, which certainly made life easier for the conductor, and on a nice day what could be better than watching the world go by from the open platform!

In Rochdale, unlike some other locations, drivers and conductors were paired off together permanently, and my mate hated the “back loaders” with a passion, especially the “pedal buses”, ie the NDK batch with their preselector gearboxes. He would find any excuse to send a Regent into the garage with any minor defect, and on one or two occasions he lit a match and held it under a fuse, the result being a chance to ask for a changeover bus.

After five months I took the opportunity to change my mate, to work with a driver who was also an enthusiast. However, on the day I should have started to work with my new driver, I was called into the driving school. After a fortnight on en ex-Bolton PD2 (now in the Manchester museum of transport,) I passed the test. A few days later, as part of my “all types training”, I had a spell, with an instructor, on 6196. Naturally this was a thrill, after all the anticipation, I was finally driving a preselector Regent. We drove along the Bacup route, then, to my surprise, we continued over the moors to Burnley. The journey back, with my fellow trainee at the wheel, was an anti-climax!

There was a few weeks’ pause before I got a place on the drivers’ rota, and during this period it was permitted for the driver and conductor to exchange places. The first time I drove a Regent on service 17, I got stuck behind a very slow moving van towing another van. Every time I got in front, the vans would overtake me at the next bus stop. On arrival at Rochdale, seven minutes late, a stern-faced inspector told me I would have to do better when I went driving full time.

By the time I was driving, there were only 12 Regent V’s in service, including five of the NDK’s. The preselector gearbox was a fascinating feature, I couldn’t get enough. In the cab, the Regents sounded very different; the gearbox sound was inaudible, and you just had the sound of the engine; on the Gardner versions this was really music to my ears. There was one poor Regent V to me, 6180, which ironically is the sole member of the NDK batch to be preserved (as Rochdale 280). The problem was that when you took your foot off the accelerator, the engine continued to rev for a few seconds, which made it difficult to change gear without a jerk. On the other hand, 6172 was magnificent, light steering, perfect gearchange and a lively performance too.
I remember one late turn which started on the cross-town service 440 (Turf Hill – Syke.) On one occasion I had 6172 and thoroughly enjoyed myself. After the meal break, we had two trips to Manchester on service 24. The Fleetline on this service was faulty (honestly) and so I asked for a changeover for the 2200 departure. A fitter arrived from the garage with 6172, grinning from ear to ear at the thought of punishing me for requesting a changeover at that late hour. Needless to say I had a whale of a time on that final trip, although my conductor was not impressed!

Some drivers complained about heavy steering on the Regents, but this was certainly no worse than a fully loaded Fleetline. The survivors were gradually withdrawn, and all too soon 6198 was the last survivor; it was finally withdrawn in the spring of 1977, a mere 21 years old. Only three months later, I left Rochdale to take up my dream job, driving Crosville Bristols in North Wales.
Two examples of the breed survive in preservation, both restored to the original streamlined livery, despite having been in the mainly cream livery for most of their lives. Thus they can be seen again in their former glory, to remind us of the unique fleet of buses which served the town of Rochdale in years gone by.

Donald McKeown
12/2013

06/12/13 – 11:55

Donald’s very interesting piece raises memories and a number of comments. The first Regent Vs appeared on the #9 from Rochdale to Ashton a few short months before we moved from the bottom of Oldham Rd., Ashton to Stockport so I had little chance to ride on them when new. They looked very modern, imposing and extremely smart in Rochdale’s blue and cream.
The #9 had been well served by Rochdale’s Regent IIIs which were totally different in every visual and aural respect to the Oldham and Ashton Leylands and Crossleys which were the other regular offerings on the route, not to mention the Rochdale and Oldham Daimlers which were rarer performers and the Ashton Guys (some austerity in original form, some rebodied) which operated the short workings to Hathershaw. If there was a route in the North West to offer a variety beyond the Leyland PD dominance, this was it. Throw in the mix of body builders the chassis carried in 1956 – Leyland, Crossley, Weymann, Roe, MCW, East Lancs and Massey – and there was a good cross section of British bus manufacture on just one route.
AECs were not exactly rare with North West operators, just less common compared with the preponderance of Leylands – the purchase of which most Councils saw as supporting local industry. North Western (single deck), Mayne (double deck), Salford (double deck), Leigh (double deck), Bury (double deck), Chester (single deck), St Helens (single and double deck), Liverpool (double deck) and, of course, that other Rochdale operator, Yelloway.
Just what set Rochdale Council so firmly against Leyland post war I’ve never found out. Only 47 Leylands were ordered prewar and one was inherited from Yelloway with the Manchester route. Even prewar there was a preponderance of orders for Dennis and Crossley. Presumably most of the Regent Vs received Gardner engines for commonality with the Daimlers in the fleet and for the engine’s undoubted power and reliability. Just why they couldn’t persuade AEC to fit the engine to the last deliveries is an interesting question.
The Regent Vs gave great service and were distinctive enough (though less so with the spray painted livery) to be a significant part of the character of Rochdale for many years and help make the town different to its neighbours.

Phil Blinkhorn

06/12/13 – 11:56

Donald. Thanks for your fly on the wall experience of these beautiful vehicles but, two points of correction and clarification.
The D2RA (as well as all other AEC engined heavies) had the AEC A218 engine (carried over from the Regent III). The AV590 was a different, new, wet liner engine which was fitted after 1959 to the series 2 versions – ie 2D2RA, 2D3RA etc. [See Regent V, Stewart J Brown, Ian Allan).]
The body was correctly called the Aurora. [See The Weymann Story Part 2, John A Senior, Venture Publications.]

David Oldfield

06/12/13 – 11:57

Thank you Donald for a most fascinating article about one of the most glorious of the numerous captivating and colourful Lancashire municipal fleets. In what I promise will be only a brief digression from the Mark V I’ll just say that my only working contact with Rochdale buses was when Samuel Ledgard bought five Mark 3s with east Lancashire bodies, GDK 401 – 405 (201 – 205). I drove them all, four only occasionally as they were at Leeds depot, but at Otley our GDK 401 which I took with joy whenever I could get my hands on it – majestic, comfortable, and very lively in a dignified way, and in a nice little touch Ledgard’s had left the gold fleet numbers in both saloons.

Here is a picture of a very happy me with GDK 401 returning to Otley from one of the local estates, having just crossed the River Wharfe bridge – oh, to do the same again today !!

Chris Youhill

09/12/13 – 09:19

Many thanks to Donald for his account of the Rochdale Regent Vs, which were always my favourite way of getting into Manchester, as I lived just a couple of miles south of him until 1968. In terms of vehicle policy I think of Rochdale as an honorary Yorkshire operator, counterbalancing Todmorden which was an honorary Lancashire one!
Just a couple of small points. Firstly, although David is correct in saying that the A218 was the standard engine in the D2RA, information displayed with 322 at the South Yorkshire Transport Museum says it has an A208. Was there ever such an engine, or is this an error? Secondly, I’m less convinced than John Senior that this style of body was ever officially called Aurora. The odd thing is that by the time of the 1954 Commercial Motor Show there were quite a lot of them in service in various places, and yet MCW were still promoting the original 1952 Aurora, a completely different design of which only one was ever built.

Peter Williamson

09/12/13 – 11:49

The original 9.6 litre engine fitted to the Regent III was the A208. Apparently it was found that some so fitted were tending to overheat when driven hard due to coolant not reaching the rearmost cylinder, so an external pipe was fitted to feed coolant to the back of the cylinder head, and this variant became the A218, becoming standard from around 1949. (This information is from Alan Townsin’s ‘Best of British Buses – Postwar Regents’)
By the time the Rochdale Mk. V’s were built they would have been fitted with the A218, but it’s possible that an older engine may have been fitted to the preserved one at some point.
There was also an A204 variant for the London RT, an A213 which I think had a different means of attaching the cylinder head and used mainly in goods chassis, and the A219 was a horizontal version of the A218 for the Regal IV.

John Stringer

09/12/13 – 11:53

A slight amendment to my previous comment. The very original AEC 9.6 litre engine was actually the A185 ‘pot cavity’ unit as used in the prewar (okay, actually early wartime) LT RT.

John Stringer

10/12/13 – 06:41

I was once told by a non-enthusiast friend (who had lived in Heywood for most of his life) that Rochdale ‘couldn’t buy Leylands’. I took this to mean that there had been, at some stage, a terminal ‘falling-out’. Can anyone confirm or deny this?

David Call

10/12/13 – 12:15

Whilst I know of instances of operators falling out with suppliers and the odd instance of suppliers refusing to supply (normally bad credit risk) operators, I know of no instance of Leyland Motors refusing to supply a municipal operator so any refusal is almost certain to be Rochdale’s.

Phil Blinkhorn

11/12/13 – 06:35

It often happens that people hear things and repeat them out of context, so that a one-time problem can be portrayed as a permanent prohibition. Postwar Rochdale had, for double-deckers, a policy of buying vehicles with fluid transmission. Until I checked, I had assumed that, in common with many other operators, they did this to facilitate retraining of tram drivers, but since it appears that Rochdale’s tramway system ceased in 1932 that cannot be the case. However, whatever the reason, it is a fact, and it means that for a while, Rochdale “couldn’t buy Leylands”, because Leylands came with only manual gearboxes.
Another possible explanation is a difference of opinion between the management and the Transport Committee. This was certainly true the other way round in Manchester, where the management “couldn’t buy AECs” because the Transport Committee said so!

Peter Williamson

11/12/13 – 08:49

Like Peter W (comment 09/12/13 – 09:19), I was under the impression that the “Aurora” was a one off design. Devon General 679 (NTT 679) was an AEC Regent III built in 1952. According to the first edition of “British Bus Fleets 8” published in 1964, “This vehicle was exhibited at the 1952 commercial motor show and has a prototype body given the type name ‘Aurora’ which did not go into production.”

Don McKeown

11/12/13 – 14:48

I had thought of mentioning Stuart Pilcher’s desire to obtain AECs when I listed the North West AEC operators.
Whatever the reason for Rochdale’s choice it made the Rochdale townscape distinctly different.

Phil Blinkhorn

11/12/13 – 14:49

The Aurora name was revived in 1957 for a forward entrance version of the Orion-style body, appearing as such on brochures and in adverts – I have a 1959 copy depicting a Halifax JOC PD3 which is described as an Auraora – but this name seemed to fizzle out after a couple of years or so.
The naming of MCW Group double deck products appears to be rather confusing, and I’ve never quite followed it. I have seen references to Orion-style bodies that were not actually called Orions, but I think Mk. IV’s. Though the Orion was introduced in 1952 as a super lightweight body, not all of them were lightweights.
In my very first bus book – Ian Allan’s ‘ABC of Buses and Coaches’ (1956)- there is an MCW official photo of my local operator Halifax JOC’s Daimler CVG6 DCP 851. This is described as having a ‘more substantial’ version of the Orion body. The actual unladen weight of these was 7tons 2cwt 3qtrs, which I reckon was still quite light for a CVG6 with epicyclic gearbox (the contemporary Roe teak framed ones weighed 7.17.2). The super-lightweight Orion was popular at first, many of them weighing in at only 6 tons odd, but then it appears that operators realised they had taken weight saving a little too far, and by the late 1950’s most seemed to be of the more substantial type.
MCW do not seem to me to have used the Orion name as much (if at all) from then on and I wonder if the name was intended only for the original lightweight version, and the Mk.IV was the eventually more common heavier one. Halifax’s forward entrance PD2’s of 1960-66 weighed around 8 tons, their 1959 PD3’s were 8.9.0, the 1960 Regent V 30-footers were 8.7.0, and the 1963 PD3’s were 8.6.0, so they had put a lot of weight on by then.
It also leads me to wonder what Mk’s I, II & III had been, and since there went on to be four-bay versions and other variants whether there were other ‘Mk.’ numbers we don’t know about. Does anyone have MCW brochures from the late 1950’s and 1960’s where they still use the Orion name, or is it a case of enthusiasts perpetuating the name wrongly until they believe they are right – rather like happened with the Leyland Farington ?

John Stringer

12/12/13 – 07:10

There were always two versions of the Orion body structure. What changed over the years is that the lightweight version varied in just how lightweight it was. Manchester tried both original super-lightweight and heavy versions in 1955-6, and then settled on a beefed-up lightweight from 1958. Salford, starting in 1962, only ever bought heavies.
Returning to Rochdale Regent Vs, I see that 280 is currently being advertised for sale. I am very surprised at this, as I always assumed it was owned by the Greater Manchester Museum of Transport rather than an individual.

Peter Williamson

12/12/13 – 12:22

Whilst Salford bought “heavy” Orions, they also bought far more forward entrance Auroras – if that name is correct. Just what was it about the construction of these – which were basically Orion lookalikes, that necessitated the extra thick upper deck pillars around the window over the door?

Phil Blinkhorn

13/12/13 – 07:13

Salford’s forward entrance PD2s had an extra wide bay in the body structure to accommodate the doors. The upper deck window in this bay is standard width, and therefore requires extra thick pillars to make it fit.
Apologies for incorrect information about 280. It is in fact one of the ODKs that is for sale. Owing to a typo the number isn’t given, and I assumed it was 280 because I didn’t know any other Gardners had survived.

Peter Williamson

13/12/13 – 07:23

Just for clarification, as far as I know it’s only 305 that’s for sale, not 280. 305 has never been very active on the preservation scene and what is left of the paintwork is still orange.
Also this is my opportunity to thank Donald for an excellent article which not only covered a neglected fleet but dealt with aspects which in themselves are not well documented even for the better-known fleets.

David Beilby

13/12/13 – 16:51

To avoid digressing too much from the subject I’m going to post a new topic regarding the MCW Aurora – the forward entrance version on the Any Other Thing page.

Phil Blinkhorn

18/12/13 – 06:27

John Stringer made mention of Met-Cam bodies known as Mark IVs and wonders if there were any other mark numbers.
In 1958/9 Nottingham City Transport took delivery of 44 Leyland PD2/40s with MCCW bodies. The 1958 deliveries fleet numbers 2 to 33 (2 ATO to 33 ATO) had steel framed bodies of four bay construction with an additional short bay at the back of the lower deck. These buses were of ‘Orion’ style but had flush interiors (i.e. there was no inset around the window, this was to be found on the outside). These bodies were known as Mark Vs. The 1959 deliveries, fleet numbers 34 to 45 (34 ATO to 45 ATO), had alloy frames and again were of ‘Orion’ style and of four bay construction, with the additional small bay on the lower deck and flush interiors as the 1958 deliveries. These bodies were known as Mark IVs.

Michael Elliott

02/01/14 – 17:54

This photo of Nottingham 27 shows very well the inset windows that Michael refers to, except at the front of the upper deck, where the windows are part of the frameless dome structure. However, the same does not seem to be true at the rear. http://tinyurl.com/qg7rgh7

Peter Williamson

31/01/14 – 09:00

It’s interesting that Peter says that Rochdale’s aversion to Leylands could be due to the lack of a fluid transmission variant – because Leyland could be persuaded to provide fluid transmission if the operator was important enough. London Transport being the obvious example, but there was the less well-known batch of pre-selector PD2s supplied to Leeds in the early 50s, possibly in an attempt to remain a third alternative to AEC and Daimler. It must have worked because from then on Leeds purchased a sizable fleet of semi-auto PD3s. Possibly Rochdale was seen as less important – it would be interesting to see if the tenders specified fluid transmission and whether Leyland submitted bids. There was an article in “Buses Extra” several years ago on my local operator, Stockport Corporation and the fact that so many tenders were received from different suppliers – had Stockport not been so wedded to the PD2/PD3 one can only conjecture what might have been.

Michael Keeley

01/02/14 – 17:47

Very informative article and comments; as a schoolboy in the late 50s and early 60s. I travelled to school from Heywood to Manchester via Manchester’s routes 4 or 63. I understand that route 4, Manchester Cannon Street to Bamford was technically a joint service between Manchester and Rochdale corporations but Rochdale never operated their vehicles on this route, does anyone know why? (How I would have enjoyed travelling on one of those immaculately turned out Regent Vs; especially in the original livery.)

John Davies

02/02/14 – 06:48

The #4 to Norden was a vestige of the original 1928 #1 express service from Gatley to Norden. A joint Rochdale/Manchester operation this may have been in name only as I have never seen any photographic evidence of a Rochdale vehicle at Gatley. After WW2 the route was definitely only operated by MCTD, probably as part of a balancing arrangement with Rochdale regarding input into routes 4, 8 and 17

Phil Blinkhorn

02/02/14 – 11:31

It is correct that MCTD service #4 was a joint service with Rochdale from the outset until the cessation of MCTD in 1969 but it was always operated by Manchester vehicles, latterly mainly by the Daimler CCG6’s foisted on Queens Rd garage.
It was a common feature of MCTD joint services for only one party to operate the service. Out of nearly 90 joint service routes in 1969 no less than 25 services were provided by only one operator though there were occasional instances of the other operator(s) fielding a bus as a revenue sharing ploy or to cover breakdowns etc.
I would have loved to have seen a Rochdale Regent making it’s way to Gatley via Kingsway or Wilmslow Rd had the 1920’s arrangements persisted.

Orla Nutting

East Yorkshire – AEC Regent V – VKH 43 – 643

East Yorkshire - AEC Regent V - VKH 43 - 643

East Yorkshire Motor Services
1956
AEC Regent V
Willowbrook HBB56R

Notice the roof this shape was unique to East Yorkshire for one reason the Beverly North Bar. This is the sole survivor of the gateways into the town of Beverly the shape of the arch comes to a point requiring the roof of the bus to do the same even so it was still a tight fit.

A full list of Regent V codes can be seen here.

A piece of boring personal reminiscence! (But it shows, perhaps, how times have changed). Because, I think, that sitting for a long period by the window on the upper deck of a ‘Beverly Bar’ double decker could become uncomfortable, East Yorkshire permitted smoking on the lower deck. I’m unaware of any other operator who allowed it.

Roy Burke

It’s strange that the majority of EYMS ‘deckers had the Beverley Bar roof profile, as only a few routes actually passed beneath the bar. I believe that 229, an ex Binnington’s TD2, was the oldest vehicle to have the roof profile, when it was rebodied in 1936. The lowbridge buses were used in the Hornsea area, I think.

Keith Easton

11/03/11 – 16:23

Were these Regents known as ‘Blue bottles’?

Roger Broughton

13/03/11 – 08:09

If memory serves correctly Roger, East Yorkshire’s Leyland Titan PD2/Roe fully-fronted double-decker coaches became known as ‘Bluebottles’ after demotion to bus duties in later life. Originally painted in East Yorkshire’s attractive coach livery of primrose and blue, they were apparently known as ‘Yellow Perils’ when new. On becoming buses they received East Yorkshire’s glorious indigo and primrose livery with white roof – thus becoming ‘Bluebottles’. Whether the entire batch was downgraded, and whether the buses retained their coach seating I do not know, but they certainly looked comfortable and distinctive vehicles in either livery.

Brendan Smith

13/03/11 – 10:31

Brendan, I believe that the PD2 coaches did retain the luxury seating even when demoted, but I can’t honestly remember whether or not the large lower saloon luggage racks were retained – this would mean the seating capacity still being only 50. Certainly some of the batch escaped the indignity of being demoted, although I suppose if they had to be demoted at least it was to an honourable alternative with East Yorkshire, as one was preserved and appeared at rallies in primrose and light blue.
Roy, I’m sure you’re right about “smoking anywhere in the bus” as I have never encountered it elsewhere either. When I had relations in Bridlington I was a frequent traveller from Leeds, and I have to confess to contributing plenty of nicotine to the lower saloons in my misguided days – how I wish for many reasons that I’d never touched a cigarette but that’s another story.

Chris Youhill

14/03/11 – 07:57

Barton Transport certainly allowed smoking on both decks in the early 1970’s but I’m not sure if it was allowed until the end of their operation of double deckers.

Chris Barker

14/03/11 – 19:44

Brendan, I would agree with you on the naming of the PD2/12’s, and only the final eight (576 to 583) MKH 85 – 92. were downgraded to bus work. The seating was altered to FH28/26RD, thus seating 54 passengers, but I am unaware as to whether the coach seats were retained or replaced by bus seats.

Keith Easton

05/07/11 – 05:44

Having been absent from the EY Pages for awhile there’s a whole mass of really good info for me to read -3 pages back Chris mentions Whitby Oliver Furniture and a J5G conversion to Van, Bob Mack I think took a photo of AEC CVY 129 a converted bus. Back in 1911 and again in 1912 Olivers converted two ex London area buses. Maudslay ex Union Jack (London Road Car Co)LC4149 bonnet code R4, Platform Flat carrying a lift off rail container 1911. The second was it is thought an ex GELMO Straker made into Rully demountable top.
re-regd York so orig owner not confirmed. In the early 1920 they ran five Charas convertible to Vans, 1 Maudslay, 2 Guys 2 Karriers. One of their slogans was ‘Are your chairs Uneasy let us repair them’- try that with Bus seats, By the way EYMS operated an Air Service for a short time within the British Isles during the 1930s It departed Hedon Aerodrome.

Ian Gibbs

05/07/11 – 09:12

Ian, your last sentence brings back very happy memories for me (no, I’m not QUITE as old as Amy Johnson but not far off) of Hedon Aerodrome. When I was in the RAF at Patrington in 1955/6 we naturally frequently used the EYMS Hull – Withernsea service and even then the intermediate destination blinds read :-
AERODROME
   HEDON
PATRINGTON
There was a filling station, still in business at that time, called “Aerodrome Garage.” For a little more local flavour, how about the Hull folk’s pronunciation of the seaside resort as “Wither(UN)sea.

Chris Youhill

06/07/11 – 07:28

I think one of the Bluebottles was used by Halifax Corporation as a Driver Trainer. Also 647(VKH 47) was loaned to Yorkshire Woollen and then Hebble Motor Services in 1960 for fuel consumption tests.

Philip Carlton

06/07/11 – 09:20

The bus used by Halifax as a trainer was coach seated MKH 81 which carried the Halifax number 403 There is a photo of the bus in Halifax service on www.sct61.org.uk

Chris Hough

07/07/11 – 06:41

Slightly off topic here, but what’s wrong with us ‘Ull folk saying “Wither’n’sea”? What about Whitefriargate then? For the non Hull folk it’s pronounced whit’fra’gate!! Back on topic, was the Aerodrome the one at Hedon where EYMS operated the Bus-Air service in the 30’s and KHCT ran services to the Hull Speedaway in the post-war years?

Keith Easton

07/07/11 – 12:15

Being brought up proper and speaking proper to boot, I’m, nonetheless, a big believer in preserving local dialect – or Sheffieldish as she is spoke in the old homeland. In Sheffield, there is a select corner of the republic called Beauchief but pronounced by the locals as “Beechiff”. We also share, with Doncaster, a suburb called “Inteck” – but you have to look on the buses for Intake.

David Oldfield

07/07/11 – 12:17

Well since you mention Hull Keith, I have to say I’m not a Hullovarian but I absolutely love the place! The first time I ever visited, I went on the ferry from New Holland and took the bus into town from Corporation Pier. I did go over the bridge soon after it opened but then many years passed before I visited again in 2009. I used to love the old bus station because it was full of atmosphere and character and the delights of the parking ground to the rear but I suppose you have to admit that the new interchange and St. Stephens has enhanced Hull considerably. I would like to ask you this; what was in the massive 5 or 6 story block between the bus station and Ferensway, was it offices? there was a street to the right of it which would have seemed a natural exit for buses but why did they go some distance further along before exiting on to Ferensway, was it by Lombard Street? I wish I’d taken more notice at the time but you never value things till they’ve gone!

Chris Barker

08/07/11 – 06:19

Oh ‘eck Keith, I hope I haven’t caused any offence – such was certainly not the intention – just the opposite in fact. I’ve always been a lover of local dialects and accents, and East Yorkshire and Hull in particular – I was just highlighting the delight of the extra syllable that you good ‘Ull/Spurn folk insert between the “R” and the “N” By way of apology, a pint of Moores and Robsons or Hull Brewery ale is yours when we meet !!

Chris Youhill

09/07/11 – 07:28

Chris Y and EY Aero buffs here is a reminder of ‘old planes’


I was given this picture to copy by an old chap I interviewed years ago with no copyright on the rear. He told me that the Air Ferry was set up to provide businessmen with a quick trip across the Humber I believe it was a charter job for each trip. The date was c1933s tickets were in triplicate coloured copies apparently being Blue Yellow White The Taxi was possibly ex-Richard Sherwoods fleet (only a theory on my part). My informant named the ‘Taxi’ as 6-cylinder Chevrolet Vehicle. So as Sherwood had 8 Chevs, one an LQ type (WF 2441) acquired by EYMS 1933 it is possibly from EYMS ownership. Anyhow EYMS provided the vehicle as transport to the Aerodrome, this photo illustrated the arrival of flight number One I was informed. I think the Aircraft may have been a Percival product.The aircraft code letters are not visible (rather like those annoying bus photos with staff in front of the Plate) so it cannot be precisely identified -or maybe from Aerodrome log books?
Briefly on the subject of R H Sherwood he owned a 1907 ‘National’ Car formerley owned by John J Ferens!

Ian Gibbs

10/07/11 – 07:34

Hi Chris (B), between the bus station and Ferensway, was the ABC Cinema (on the corner) with a branch of Norman Duggleby’s toy shop at the bus station corner – sheer heaven for a youngster in the ‘fifties and ‘sixties! Next to the cinema was the Electricity showrooms, next to which was a car park, but was obviously a bombed site I’m not sure what was originally there. I too spent many happy hours in the Coach Station (that sounds a bit suspect in the 21st Century, but the ‘fifties to ‘seventies were much more innocent days); indeed upon acquiring a copy of Alan Witton’s fleetbook 2 and standing in the Coach Station and Victoria square, I found that I could see 80% of the KHCT bus fleet- happy days. Ironically, being born and bred in ‘Ull, I never did get to go on the New Holland Ferry, indeed you never appreciate what you have until it has gone. As to Lombard street, the KHCT offices and central garage were on the western side of Lombard street, and several bus stand were situated adjacent to the garage/offices. I only remember the rebuilt premises as the garage took a direct hit during the horrific air raid of May, 1941.
Chris (Y) no offence taken, but if you can find a pint of Hull Brewery, then your’e on! On the topic of Hullisms, have you ever heard of Bridleberg, Withernberg and Hornberg at all? This is what we called them when young.
Peter, please accept my apologies as this is totally off topic, just the ramblings of an aging Hullensian bus enthusiast!

Keith Easton

11/07/11 – 07:19

Very happy indeed Keith that no offence was taken – as I explained of course only the opposite was intended. No, I’ve never encountered the “bergs” before but I did often hear (and still do from an ex Hull/LCT chap in Leeds) Patrington pronounces as “Patringumm.” In the aerodrome region I have very fond memories of the prefabs on Hedon Road with enormous numbers reaching 12** etc, The Gaol (from outside I stress) Imperial Typewriters , Humbrol paints. The EYMS Withernsea service, before joining Hedon Road and passing the Aerodrome, was via Holderness Road and Southcoates Lane – I believe this still applies.

Chris Youhill

18/07/11 – 07:28

I chanced upon this forum while looking for pictures of Hedon aerodrome. Mr Easton’s comments on Hull Bus Station reminded me that I too spent a lot of time there in the ’50s and ’60s waiting for buses to Cottingham Road. The stop was opposite Duggleby’s; how many times must I have gazed longingly in their windows! I remember the long rows of bus stands, and used to imagine that buses from the ones at the back went to strange and forbidding places.

Stephen W.

22/08/11 – 11:32

The building in Ferensway contained the Regal cinema and the former Hull Electricity Department offices, later the Yorkshire Electricty Board. The car park and small road (shaped like a D on its side) was not a bomb damaged site – the former buildings were demolished when Frenesway was built in the early thirties.
For a time the “roadway” was used as a KHCT bus terminus – there’s a photo in the Hull Daily Mail of 17 March 2001 showing a bus in the site and another leaving it and turning right into Ferensway.

Malcolm Wells

23/08/11 – 09:51

Hi Malcolm, this comment of yours now clarifies and confirms the location of the terminal points of many Hull Corporation bus services in the early ‘thirties, which I have only come across as “bus stands situated in Ferensway, north of the electricity showrooms”. Sadly I didn’t see the photo in the HDM to which you referred.

Keith Easton

23/08/11 – 14:20

The aeroplane used for the Brough – Waltham (i.e. Grimsby) air ferry was G-ABFR, an example of the very rare Blackburn Segrave twin engined monoplane powered by two 120 h.p. de Havilland Gipsy III engines. It went on to Redhill Flying Club in May 1936. These details come from “British Civil Aircraft since 1919” by A.J. Jackson.

Roger Cox

Roger Cox re East Yorks Air Ferry thank you for taking the time to post the Aircraft info-I have not looked at the Bus Photos site for some weeks so did not find your posting it is appreciated and I have added the note to the print I have it’s marvellous how these sites makes info sharing so helpful.
Whilst on East Yorkshire Fred Sharpe of Hedon had two Albions one rather old chain drive chara that came second hand from a Harrogate Hotel it had been a ferry for hotel Golfers then to Sharpes green colour source Ernie Sharp. The other a half cab Albion came from Bullocks Pontefract (Taylor Body I believe-unconfirmed.) Fred Sharpe and Ernest? Bullock were planning a through service to the East Coast exchanging passengers along the way but it never came to fruition.

East Yorkshire – AEC Regent V – WAT 651 – 651

East Yorkshire AEC Regent V Beverly Bar

East Yorkshire Motor Services
1957
AEC Regent V
Roe HBB66R

Photographed at Scarborough bus station this Beverly Bar styled Regent V with normal V radiator is on route to Bridlington via the Butlins Holiday camp at Filey.
I have now found my old fleet lists above information comes from one dated 20th February 1964 the only other snippet of information other than above is that this bus had a 9.6 litre engine

A full list of Regent V codes can be seen here.

This was the last East Yorkshire full height bus with a Beverly Bar roof to enter service, it is now preserved and appears on the Northern Rally circuit.

Chris Hough

When I travelled daily from Hedon to Withernsea School on 651/652 they were always known as “Hovercrafts”. Don’t know why.

Martin Ferris

Eeee Martin, that takes me back.  I was in the RAF at Patrington in 1955/6 – a Utopian posting for a lifelong devotee of the wonderful East Yorkshire Motor Services.  Mark V Regents were still to come of course, but oh what treats you would have enjoyed on your school journeys a little earlier – Leyland PD1s and often, on duplicates from Hull Depot, the gorgeous ECW rebodied pre-war Titan TD5s.  Due no doubt to a temporary shortage of transfers, or possibly a most enchanting mistake, some of the PD1s had on the platform rear wall the fabulous instruction “WAIT UNTIL THE COACH STOPS.”
One of the Motor Transport drivers at our Patrington camp came to the end of his long regular service with the RAF and joined EYMS at Withernsea Depot – I’ve NEVER been as green with envy of anyone before or since.  His surname was Mitchell (Mitch) and I hope he’s still around but will be well in his “eighties” by now.

Chris Youhill

With regards to Martins question two up:

Noise? Vibration? Pitching? Deafening engine fan?
Ability to deal with run off water from fields?

Joe

Leeds City Transport – AEC Regent V – XUM 894 – 894

Leeds City transport AEC Regent V

Leeds City transport
1957
AEC Regent V
Roe H60R

Yet another example of a Regent V with a Regent III radiator. If I remember Leeds city Transport buses were nearly all semi automatic or had clutch less gearboxes of some description probable to help them off to quick start from the bus stops.

894 is the last of a huge batch which were ordered as tram replacements. The next batch numerically were fitted with 8′ wide bodies.

Terry Malloy

The last batches of post-war LCT buses to have full three pedal “clutch and gearbox” transmission were the Crossleys, the Leyland PD1s, the sixty Leyland PD2s (NNW batch), the six “standee” single deckers (2 Guy, 3 AEC Reliance and 3 Leyland Tiger Cub) – so rather more than is generally realised !!

Chris Youhill

Hi everyone,
I meant to post this link a while ago, finally got around to it.
www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=39972
It shows the first delivery of these vehicles to Torre Road Depot.

Terry Malloy

I think the reason for preferring clutchless transmissions, in common with several other municipal operators, was the need to retrain large numbers of tram drivers in a very short time. Far fewer people owned cars in those days, and many of those tram drivers would never have driven a motor vehicle.
What about the PD2/11s (UUA batches)? I know some of them were specials with pneumo-cyclic transmission, but I didn’t think they all were.

Peter Williamson

The last manual gearbox double deckers were the sixty “NNW” Leyland PD2s. All subsequent double deck vehicles being semi automatic of one kind or another. Thereafter all AECs and Daimlers were either three pedal pre-selector or two pedal “monocontrol.” All Leylands were two pedal pneumo-cyclic with the exception of the batch of ten “RNW”s (301 -310) which were three pedal pre-selector, and were the only ones made other than the London Transport RTLs and RTWs. Passionately wishing to drive one of the latter, I booked a piece of teatime overtime out of Bramley and persuaded a bemused but helpful shift foreman to let me take 307, one of the only two remaining at the time – a great experience !!

Chris Youhill

31/07/12 – 05:43

The clutch you are referring to was a gear changing pedal (NOT A CLUTCH) they were known as preselctors, I used to love to drive them brings back memories going up Churwell Hill in the old girls, (52/53 Morley)

Roger Hopper

07/11/12 – 16:47

Snivelling out of Bramley Chris? You’re very lucky one of the PD1s wasn’t compulsory for you! When we had these at Torre Road Garage (301 – 310) we used to complain bitterly that they wouldn’t “Pull” up hills. Scott Hall Road 69 & 70 routes used to see old Hunslet MK3s flying past us. The regular Bramley drivers (used to PD1s & PD2s used to use a form of “double declutching” on these and other preselector buses – preselecting neutral between gears. Don’t know if this helped or not. Perhaps the Bramley mechanics knew how to tune them up properly as I never heard of any complaints about lack of power when the Bramley drivers got hold of them.

Bill Midgley

08/11/12 – 07:16

Most interesting memories Bill, thank you, and I had forgotten or was never aware that the “RTL”s had been at Torre Road. On that one joyous occasion that I drove 307 I found it went very well – unless I was mesmerised by the wonderful concerto of gurglings, compressed air hissings and tick over wobblings so as not to notice, and of course there were virtually no real hills on that particular piece of work, the entire outward journey from Bramley in the west to Barnbow Factory in the east being “private.” The Bramley practice you mention of “double de-clutching” is completely unorthodox, baffling, and quite un-necessary, and surely can have no advantage at all – in fact it entirely defeats the object of faultless gear changes for which the system was invented !!

Chris Youhill

08/11/12 – 11:12

Ah, but it must have been harder to fiddle a CVD or CWD like. The gearchange was not an H-gate but a quadrant, so the neutral position was not between the gears. Having said that, the sheer driver-crippling vindictiveness of the change pedal has entered the annals of bus folk-lore!

Stephen Ford

10/11/12 – 10:20

Chris, these buses were new to Torre Road Garage and serviced the 69 Moortown and 70 Primley Park via Scott Hall Road services. The crews were on the TRG Rota – the precursor to getting a “Regular” on a main route.
At TRG, these were :- Dewsbury Road – Moortown – Middleton, Morley – Meanwood, East End Park Circular (included Moortown-Whitkirk & Leeds – Bradford), Lawnswood – Beeston, Half Mile Lane & Compton Road – Horsforth. Nearly everyone wanted to get onto Lawnswood because it had the best duty sheets – usually two “dinnertimes” in a late week. I worked out of TRG from 1958 – 1960 and had a “Regular” on Dewsbury Road before I went off to Headingley. When I first started, I was the youngest conductor on LCT being eighteen and two weeks! Ah! Those were the days – or maybe not!

Bill Midgley

06/01/15 – 05:42

Here’s a Pathe News clip of one of the Monocontrol Regent V’s being driven by a one-legged driver. //www.britishpathe.com/video/monocontrol-bus-aka-revolutionary-bus/query/leeds+buses

Chris Hebbron

07/01/15 – 06:26

Chris the one legged driver was John Rafferty the long time chairman of the council transport committee. The film was shot at Torre Road depot.

Chris Hough

08/01/15 – 06:43

Breath-holding shots of Alderman Rafferty climbing unaided into this Roe half-cab using his one leg and his crutch.

Joe

Liverpool City Transport – AEC Regent V – VKB 774 – A176

Liverpool corporation AEC Regent V

Liverpool City Transport
1957
AEC Regent V
Metro Cammell Weymann H33/29R

A unique radiator grill I think don’t know why as the standard grill looked much better than this tin look. I also think how much better the livery would have been if there was a nice cream band between the upper and lower deck, there was far too much green on Liverpool buses.

Glasgow Corporation also had this tin front on their Regent Vs

Anonymous

The original livery had a cream band right round the bus just above the lower deck windows, and a narrower, similar one below the upper deck windows; the green was also darker. The livery in this picture dates from about 1964 I think.

Anonymous

Some of Aberdeens Gardner engined AEC Regent Vs also sported this type of grille.

Chris Hough

This type of grille was very common in the 1950s on AEC Regents and on Leyland Titans. Known colloquially as a ‘tin front’ the style was common to Regent IIIs and Regent Vs in the Liverpool fleet, 292 of them in all (A1-A292) , and from memory around 300 Titan PD2s. Very common too on Midland Red and Glasgow Corporation ‘deckers.

Anonymous

17/02/11 – 07:08

The ‘City of Liverpool’ name was not added to the coat of arms till 1965.

Anonymous

15/04/15 – 10:43

I remember these well particularly running on routes 4 and 5 from South Castle Street to Woolton, and the 4b and 5b from the Pier Head to Penny Lane. On the 4 and 5 routes, they were able to get up to a fair old speed along the dual carriageways of Menlove Avenue between Penny Lane and Woolton. The 4b and 5b ‘belt’ routes ran out to Penny Lane via Wavertree and Smithdown Road respectively, then changed route number to run back to the city centre the other way, both quite heavily trafficked routes. The Penny Lane terminus was near the ‘shelter in the middle of a roundabout’ made famous in the song, also the terminus of the 99 to Lower Lane, the 42 to Edge Lane, the 71 to South Castle Street, the 77 into town and the 46 to Walton, on which I recall for a while seeing the two single deckers, SL175 and SL176.

Mr Anon

23/01/17 – 16:35

Not strictly about this bus, but the AEC Regent V D3RVs of Liverpool had one similarity to AEC Regent III 9613A A757-806 – the gearbox sound.
Although the A757 etc batch were described as 9613As they had synchromesh gearboxes, and the later batch A1-100 were 9613S. AEC Regent Vs A101-292 and Bridgemaster E3 all sounded the same.

Paul Mason

25/01/17 – 07:32

WKF 234

Herewith the original Liverpool livery on this type – taken at Pier Head on 5/7/1962. At this time the cream only around the windows (to make masking for spray painting quicker, I was told) was already well under way.
It always looked to me that the bottom half of the vehicles were repainted more often than above the lower deck windows.

371 BKA

As an afterthought, I have also included the one and only 30fter AEC in the same livery taken at the Adelphi 26/6/1962.

Geoff Pullin

02/08/20 – 06:43

Where were the handles placed that wound the number and destination scrolls? I remember them as being under the top deck over the front right fender next to the driver’s cab. But on the photos this looks not to be the case.

Gary

03/08/20 – 06:29

I’m not sure about vehicle E1 in particular, but from what I can recall all Liverpool double decks till then had a very robust cast metal destination gear framework that was accessed by the conductor from the front bulkhead of the upper saloon and hinged out so the blinds could be adjusted and seen before being clanged back into place, usually before reaching the terminus.
The subject of changing destination blinds is fascinating in its own right! Even within the much standardised Tilling Group companies, there was no standard! It was surprisingly late in the production of the Lodekka that the double width step appeared in the front cowl instead of two widely spaced single foot holes. The first time was on the six prototype 30ft long vehicles in 1957 and then standardised in the Flat Floor series. Presumably this was to ease access for those companies that had conductor operated blinds. Bristol Tramways/Omnibus itself always used driver operated blinds with controls in the cab roof, so it would not have been imbued in its erstwhile motor constructional works designers as being an operational difficulty!

Geoff Pullin

04/08/20 – 06:38

Geoff’s comment reminded me that the PMT Atlanteans and Fleetlines 1959-1965 had a similar destination layout which the conductor changed from the top deck by hinging the unit towards him so that the destination could be set before pushing the unit back into the vertical position. These were the first double decks with separate main and via blinds.

Ian Wild

05/08/20 – 06:47

Similar on some of Trent’s vehicles. I remember heading into Nottingham with my parents one evening about 1956 (I’d be 7). Front seat upstairs on one of the pre-war Willowbrook re-bodied Regents. Conductor came upstairs, unlatched the display before my wondering eyes, turned to me and said, “Right – you wind that handle right to the end…”

Stephen Ford

20/08/20 – 05:33

Geoff Pullin comments about being unsure whether E1 had the hinged blind box of its predecessors. In fact this feature continued on the Atlanteans of the L500-L801 (at least) series which were delivered with the three-window layout. It was only with the introduction of OPO that the simplified layout with just number and terminal displays was incorporated, which could be operated from the driver’s seat.

Alan Murray-Rust

Hebble – AEC Regent V – GJX 847 – 303 – (1)

Hebble AEC Regent V

Hebble Motor Services 
1957
AEC Regent V D3RV 
Weymann Orion H33/28R

If you read the copy that was with the photo of the West Yorkshire Bristol KSW6B fleet no DBW 20 (link here) I said that the photo was taken from the top deck of an Hebble Regent V well this is the Regent V.
Hebble used to paint around the radiator in white to denote that the bus had a highbridge body.

The white front on highbridge Hebble buses was to remind the driver not to enter certain parts of the Halifax Walnut Street depot as it was too low When the depot was altered this practise ceased.

Chris Hough

Excellent photos and information loved reading about the old times. I worked for Hebble from 1967 until having to go to West Yorkshire then First Group. The photo of 303 Hebble I drove it many times, good bus.

J S Thornton

Ah yes JST, I well remember 303 with the noise from its straight-through exhaust cannoning-off the walls of the terraced houses on Horton Bank!! People in Queensbury would probably hear it coming the proverbial mile away! Happy days! Ironically in the late 80’s I worked at Reliance Hosiery whose premises included the Walnut Street garage. All gone now, I believe.

Judd

01/07/14 – 14:41

The Highbridge Regent Vs also had white steering wheels to help the driver enter the right part of the depot.

Geoff S

York Pullman – AEC Regent V – ODN 348 – 71

York Pullman - AEC Regent V - ODN 348 - 71

York Pullman Bus Company Ltd
1957
AEC Regent V MD3RV 
Roe H33/28RD

A “could have been better” shot of a York Pullman Regent V with its rear doors closed. Talking of which does anybody know how the rear doors worked, were they air operated by the driver or operated by the conductor either manually or air assisted. I once went by normal service bus to Scarborough from Halifax via Bradford, Leeds and York, so the chances of going on a West Yorkshire K series with rear doors on route would be odds on I would of thought. But I can not remember the operating system of the doors, if you know please leave a comment.
I was obviously new to the skills of photograph back in 1966, the number of shots I have that were taken into the sun is amazing. The trouble is, with half cab buses the more interesting side is the near side which is not the easiest side to take angle wise. So when a chance for a near side shot came up you took it and hoped for the best, I could always retouch out the shadow that’s not a difficult job but then the shot would loose its originality.

A full list of Regent V codes can be seen here.

Don’t know how the doors on the York Pullman AEC in your photo worked, but the West Yorkshire K series buses all had conductor operated doors.  As often as not, the doors were left open except when the conductor had finished collecting fares and knew that it was unlikely that the bus would stop soon. Obviously, opening and closing the door was virtually impossible when the bus was frequently stopping and starting, when the conductor would be busy collecting fares, particularly on the top deck. Going from York to Scarborough, for example, (Route 43), the door would probably be left open until the bus had reached the outskirts of the city.

Roy Burke

The answer  to your question is the rear door on the York Pullman Regent V was operated by the conductor.
My late dad was a driver with York Pullman and I can say he has driven this and all the buses in the old fleet he was paired with Danny Weaver his conductor and yes I am a bus and coach driver, if you would like any more info on the old York Pullman then if I can I will only be to pleased to do so. I remember very well the old depot on Navigation Road, York then Peter Dew and his ‘Top Line Travel’ buses worked out of there when it was a car park how do I know? I drove for him and it is a pleasure and honour to drive from the same place as my late dad. I have spent many happy hours at the York Pullman depot dreaming of driving a bus sad but true.

Andy Tyler

Hi, I am clutching at straws here at the moment but I am trying to find out information on my father, Mr Donald Fewster who worked on York Pullman buses in the 1960s. Any information would be very gratefully received.

Brian Lloyd

I have just been reading the above comments and yes I remember Ada and Ted and also George Tyler. I believe George had the nickname Eggie because he used to be a driver delivering eggs. My Dad, Gerry Rank worked for York Pullman from 1939 until his retirement in 1990. He was a mechanic/driver. I have ridden many miles on their buses and coaches. My Mum was also a clippie, Molly, until I was born in 1956

Liz Greene nee Rank

Gosh, this is stretching the purpose of this site rather, but I was intrigued by Brian Lloyd’s enquiry about his father, Donald Fewster. That isn’t a very common name and there can’t have been many Fewsters in York, so maybe I, (or rather my dad), knew a relative of Brian’s. He was Alf Fewster, who had a greengrocer’s round with a horse and cart, and, later a Jowett Javelin, (Reg No. FDN 750). Any use, Brian?

Roy Burke

14/09/11 – 17:01

I clicked on this website cause I’m trying to find anyone who knew my dad, Geoffery Phillips, who worked for York Pullman until he left in 1990 ish. I know he knew Pete Dew and he used to say that the company was called Raynard Pullman. is this true? any help gratefully received.

Andy Phillips

15/09/11 – 09:31

York Pullman was bought out by a Father and Son called Marsh, who had earlier bought the Reynard Car Hire and Garage business, they had previously bought Broadbent of Stamford Bridge and Walkers of Tadcaster and combined them as Reynard Coaches. After the takeover, York Pullman traded as Reynard Pullman. In 1990 the York Pullman Coach business was sold to Hull City Transport. The bus part of the business was renamed Reynard Bus and was sold to the Rider Group (later to be part of First Group) later in the Year. York Pullman later passed to Durham Travel Services and then, in 2000 to First Group. The Current York Pullman was formed in 2007 by K and J Logistics.

D Hick

15/09/11 – 09:55

The original owners sold York Pullman to Reynard of Tadcaster in the late eighties adopting the name Reynard Pullman They in turn sold the coaching side of the business to Hull City Transport while the stage services went eventually to First

Chris Hough

16/09/11 – 09:33

On a visit to York last year, I had a walk along to Navigation Road to see if the depot remained. I had never been before and there didn’t seem to be any sign of it. Is it now demolished or re-developed?

Chris Barker

17/09/11 – 08:04

Yes-demolished a few years ago and replaced with student accommodation.

D Hick

15/01/12 – 16:41

Last time I saw this bus it was in a state with the engine out and wires everywhere, the body had been lifted of the chassis. I looked with a view of restoring it but bought Chesterfield Daimler 266 instead.

N.Hegedus

16/01/12 – 11:41

Don’t worry Andy Tyler – you’re far from being alone and its not sad at all. I spent much of my childhood and teenage years around the Samuel Ledgard depots at Ilkley, Otley, Yeadon and Armley “dreaming about driving a bus” (and West Yorkshire at Ilkley too) and succeeded in doing just that – for forty four years. I worked for many fascinating firms – Samuel Ledgard, West Yorkshire, Murgatroyds, Wallace Arnold, Independent Coachways, Leeds City Transport, South Yorkshire Road Transport, Caldaire (West Riding), British Bus, Cowie, Arriva – a dream come true and no regrets at all !!

Chris Youhill

11/07/12 – 08:10

Another dreamer! I finally learned to drive a bus at 50 years old (passed the test first time) Had 8 years with Southern National (Cawlett era). The stress finally got to me and I retired early. now living in York. Will extract a pic of Navigation road garage being demolished from the hard drive and send a copy in.

Steve Oxbrow

United Services – AEC Regent V – UWT 876

United Services AEC Regent V

United Services
1957
AEC Regent V
Roe L27/26RD

W. Everett & Son United Services to give them there full name operated from the Yorkshire village of Kinsley which is between Barnsley and Pontefract they ran services to nearby towns such as Leeds, Wakefield, Barnsley and Doncaster.
This bus delivered new to United Services along with UWT 875 another Regent V had a lowbridge body. If you look at first side window on the top deck you will see it has been smashed not by a bridge though looking at the bodywork.
United Services had quite a collection of second hand vehicles including a Dennis Loline from Aldershot & District and a very flash looking Titan with a Preston registration so ex Ribble, Scout or Standerwick I would guess. 
A good place to see more United Services photos is on the United Services section of Huddersfield Passenger Transport Group website to view click here.

This particular United Services was in fact made up of three autonomous family businesses who operated stage carriage services from the late 1920’s/early 1930’s under the United Services brand but also ran their own coach and paddy bus operations.
Willie Everett, the founder of W Everett & Son was my Granddad and my uncle Harry is the ‘son’ in the company name. Their bus depot was in South Kirkby near the parish church. The Kinsley depot belonged to Bingley Brothers, one of the other United Service operators (who had bought the business from another family called Granters who had been the first bus operator in the area). Cooper Brothers was the third family business partly operating under the United Services brand and it had a depot at one end of Stockingate in South Kirkby. The bus pictured is almost certainly from the Bingley’s fleet.

John Wrightson

06/10/12 – 18:52

I’m no expert on buses, but I used to travel on the United Services regularly in the fifties. We lived in Morley and my grandma (maternal) lived in Hemsworth, so my mother paid a monthly visit carting me along with her! This involved catching the West Riding 57/58 to Wakefield and then the United Services to Hemsworth. In the days before Wakefield Bus station we’d get off the 57/58 in Wood Street and catch the United at the Springs bus stops. In those days many of the United buses were former coaches and had windows you could wind down, like a car – guess who made a nuisance of himself winding the windows up and down.
When the bus station was built it was just a matter of changing platforms.
If for some reason we missed the United, we’d catch the West Riding service from Leeds to Hemsworth – but this only went as far as Cross Hills and we had to walk the rest. I recall also another independent operator in Hemsworth – Ideal Motor Services – I wonder what happened to them.

Geoff Bragg

10/10/12 – 09:10

The ‘Ideal’ referred to would almost certainly be, coincidentally, another ‘co-operative’ (they weren’t all that common) – i.e. that of Taylor of Cudworth, and Wray of Hoyle Mill, Barnsley, both trading as ‘Ideal’ and sharing a service running between Barnsley and Pontefract. There is a section on Ideal on this very site.
Taylor’s ultimately sold out to Yorkshire Traction, but most of their vehicles passed to Wray’s, who, I think, finished up with more ex-Taylor vehicles than ex-Wray, so to speak. Wray’s continued for a few more years (presumably running in co-ordination with Yorkshire Traction) before themselves selling out to YTC.
Another service running between Barnsley and Pontefract (but by a slightly different route) was operated by South Yorkshire Motors, but I don’t know whether or not it ran via Hemsworth.

David Call

David I can help you there, as I worked for South Yorkshire and successors (several) from 1987 until I retired in 2001. Under the WYPTE excellent route numbering scheme the SYRT (joint with Yorkshire Traction) route from Pontefract to Barnsley became 245. The service was basically hourly between Pontefract and Barnsley, with “short workings” to Hemsworth (Highfield Estate) also every hour, making a half hour frequency between Pontefract and Hemsworth – the latter Monday to Saturday daytimes only. The route was via Featherstone, High Ackworth, Fitzwilliam, Kinsley, Hemsworth, Shafton, Cudworth and Lundwood to Barnsley. The SYRT share of the mileage was handed over to Yorkshire Traction, along with the three new SYRT Dennis Darts, late in 1994 after Caldaire Group (West Riding) took over Pontefract depot. There, I bet you wish you’d never asked !!

Chris Youhill

11/10/12 – 07:19

Not at all, Chris, I’ve read a great many of your posts and they’re all enjoyable.
One thing I certainly didn’t know was that the Pontefract to Barnsley service was joint SYRT/YTC. Having had a look at the current 245 timetable, and assuming that the Hemsworth shorts interworked with the through service, I would say that four buses were required to run the basic Monday to Saturday service – two SYRT and two YTC? What would have been the Hemsworth shorts look as though they now run through to Barnsley as service 244, and the ex-Ideal service is still recognisable as the 246.

David Call

11/10/12 – 09:05

Thank you David and, yes, you’re right in thinking on “interworking” lines – at least throughout daytime hours Monday to Saturday – and that four vehicles would be needed. The South Yorkshire vehicles (and presumably YT as well) did alternate trips from Pontefract to Barnsley and to Hemsworth Highfields, taking a little under four hours for each cycle. One particularly vicious journey with which we were faced (weekdays) was at 1810 from Pontefract to Barnsley which also diverted via Highfields, a narrow and tortuous estate where by that time of day there was flagrant double parking everywhere. I may be mistaken – its a long time ago now – but I’m pretty sure that South Yorkshire did all the Barnsley journeys on Sundays with two vehicles to balance the mileage agreement, and of course there were no “Highfields” on the Sabbath.
I do still visit friends in Pontefract and I think that the whole service network in the region has been considerably modified now, especially since Stagecoach took “Tracky”, and the services running into Pontefract are numbered in the two digit “30s”

Chris Youhill

12/10/12 – 08:23

Indeed. When I checked back it seems that the timetable I had found was dated October 2006 – but still coming up on the internet, of course. What was the 245 has now become the 35, while the ex-Ideal service seems to have blossomed into the 46 and 47. I’m not saying the routes are exactly as they used to be, as you say services have generally been modified.

David Call

12/10/12 – 12:52

Both of the AEC’s, UWT 875/876 were delivered new to Bingleys in April, 1957. Out of curiosity, I looked at Bus Lists because T. Burrows of Wombwell had an identical vehicle, PWY 943. I’ve often wondered if they were ordered together but apparently not. The Burrows machine was delivered a year or so earlier and is listed as an MD3RV with the 7.7ltr. engine, the two Bingleys vehicles were D3RV’s with 9.6ltr. engines. The Roe bodies were identical though.

Chris Barker

13/04/13 – 07:23

Just a slight correction to the original text. The front window isn’t actually smashed – its the reflection of the gable end of the adjoining building – Bingleys only ever turned out pristine vehicles in service. Also they did not operate to Leeds and Barnsley as stated here. South Yorkshire Motors of Pontefract did and the confusion is because they also had a blue and white livery like United Services.

Mark B

31/05/14 – 08:01

Mention of the Ideal service, Barnsley – Pontefract, reminds me of the long service 70, operated jointly by Sheffield JOC and Yorkshire Traction, which ran from Sheffield to Upton. I often wondered why this stopped at Upton and didn’t run through to Pontefract. This would have required a fifth bus and a third operator.
The licensing system often made what seemed to be logical routes difficult.

Geoff Kerr

12/08/17 – 07:45

The “United” bus service was operated by a number of Companies in the area as stated. As I recall from growing up in the 50s Bingleys of Kinsley was known as W.R & P Bingleys. From memory I seem to remember that their buses were a darker blue than the one pictured. My Dad (Fred Stacey) did drive for them from time to time on a casual basis. As well as the Coaches used on “Trips” to the coast he would drive the “Mill Buses” which collected the Girls from the Mills and he often drove the Wakefield to Doncaster route along with Frank Bingley. They shared the duties for this using a Daimler Bus which I recall did something like 2 million miles in it’s lifetime. It was always the last bus out of Wakefield Bus Station at the weekend en-route back to Kinsley and if you missed it you walked.
Frank lived at the Upton Depot and operated from there. Albert Holmes was the Chief mechanic operating out of Gorton Street Depot in Kinsley and his Son (Paul) and I spent many happy hours playing in the garage known as Hunters Farm Garage. I also vaguely remember the Taxi they had which I believe was a Armstrong Siddeley.
These were happy times when life was at a different pace but I would bet journey times were no longer then than now.

David Stacey

30/08/22 – 07:02

I was looking for pictures of United Daimler/Duple (I think) GWW 49 and GWW 50 which I sometimes caught from Cross Hills to Wakefield for school (1949-1957). (Having come on an ‘Ideal’ to Hemsworth from Brierley). United had an elderly ‘high bridge’ double decker, ex-Leeds, I think. Great fun going round bends on the upper deck. One time, early 1950s (?) there was a strike, which didn’t involve ‘United’ crews, but we were made to get off on the outskirts of Wakefield.

John Lovett

Blue Ensign – AEC Regent V – 758 NDT

Blue Ensign - AEC Regent V - 758 NDT

Blue Ensign Coaches Ltd
1964
AEC Regent V
Roe H41/32F

The Doncaster area seemed to have had more than its fair share of independents and here is another one Blue Ensign. There first route was from Rossington to Doncaster Yorkshire in 1920. I think the reason for the number of independents was all the mining towns in the area and as Blue Ensign they start by running one route to Doncaster. Blue Ensign I think was more as the name suggests a coach operator rather than bus as they only purchased 3 more buses after the one above before selling out to South Yorkshire PTE on the 1st April 1978.

This vehicle still exists although it is now open top at the Sinsheim Transport Museum, Germany.

James Race

Blue Ensign ran from a depot in the centre of Doncaster and had a fleet of six vehicles – 3 coaches and three double deckers, latterly 3 Fleetlines.
The double decks were used on the jointly operated Rossington service and were finished in an immaculate livery of blue and cream with gold lining and stainless steel wheel trims

Andrew

My Grandmother “Molly” was a Clippy for Blue Ensign for many years. Grand mother is the only existing member of the crew now. Many days of our childhood were spent sat onboard the bus and meeting the regular passengers that used it. I recall that the busses were all kept immaculate, and the staff were very proud to be part of Blue Ensign. Grandma also arranged several trips and holidays around Britain with their coaches, particularly Teignmouth Devon stopping at a London Hotel, Lake Windermere, Scotland, Blackpool lights, and Woburn Abbey. These are wonderful memory’s.

Gary

Until the 1960s Doncaster was an absolute Mecca for enthusiasts of quality vehicles and operators of character and pride. Many’s the Saturday a group of us from the Leeds area would travel south, and spend a happy afternoon at the Christ Church terminus revelling in the variety to be seen and heard. We also used to take refreshments in the cafe there where, from the chatter of the many crews, we could really absorb the atmosphere of this once fascinating locality.

Chris Youhill

26/04/11 – 07:22

Yesterday sadly my Grandmother Molly passed away. Grandma spent many many years has a clippy for the Blue Ensign I am very proud of my Grandma to be part of the Blue Ensign Rossington bus service. She will be sadly missed by myself and her family.

Mollys Grandson

26/04/11 – 07:24

I’m sorry to read about your Grandma Gary – all the elements of the grand, proud old bus operators are dwindling fast nowadays sadly. I spent my happiest years working for Samuel Ledgard of Leeds – larger of course than the Doncaster area firms and with five depots and 100 + vehicles but the same proud spirit of service nevertheless. The Firm sold out on 14th October 1967 and so there are very few of us left now of course, but along with your Grandmother and the rest we proudly provided a reliable service which is sadly missed today.

Chris Youhill

27/04/11 – 07:23

Sorry to hear this- my condolences.
I remember these buses in that immaculate livery: not easy to maintain on those (then) filthy roads with their covering of slurry from the coal wagons.

Joe

18/06/11 – 07:44

I lived in Doncaster towards the end of this magnificently kept vehicles stay with Blue Ensign. We used to travel to school on her every day – and yes, I remember Molly. They (759 NDT, 3568 DT & PDT 497E) were always immaculate – no matter what the weather. I was really sad to see the Regents go – the Daimler replacements were never the same – and then the PTE marched in and bought the company. I rode on the last bus Blue Ensign ran as an independent – a really sad night.

Peter

18/06/11 – 09:19

Too true Peter – the “last nights” of these wonderful proud independent operators are too sad for words. There is always a strange feeling, earlier in the day, that the end has already come and that the final journeys are not “real.”

Chris Youhill

18/06/11 – 18:19

Pre M1/M18 the Oldfield clan regularly made pilgrimages to the East Coast – normally Scarborough – via Rotherham and Doncaster. It was at such time that I came into most regular contact with the famous Doncaster Independents.
The blessed C H Roe was the most common sight, but variously on AEC, Daimler, Guy or Leyland chassis. My favourites were the AECs but, as Peter said, anything not half cab was a step down in both quality and character. Fleetlines (and Atlanteans) were the first step on the slippery slope to modern “efficient, characterless sewing-machines” (my quote).
The only thing worse was the total destruction, for purely political reasons, of viable operators, up and down the land, of the like of the Doncaster Independents. Progress and change are not always bad, quite the opposite, but it seems always to be the case where the bus industry is concerned. lets fly the Ensign!

David Oldfield

12/04/12 – 06:00

Passing through Doncaster at the weekend, I stopped off for an hour and had a wander round to Cleveland Street and I can report that the old Blue Ensign depot still stands to this day although it’s in a sorry state now, fenced off and semi-derelict. There is a small square building at the front of the yard which I believe was their administration block and booking office for excursions and private hire. Thirty Four years after being taken over, a reminder still exists of a much loved independent whose fleet was always immaculately presented and a credit to the industry!

Chris Barker

03/08/14 – 07:40

There’s a colour picture of 3568 DT at //www.sct61.org.uk/zz3568dta  looking absolutely GLORIOUS!
Though I grew up in a red and cream area, for some reason I’ve always been partial to blue buses (Alexander Midland, Bradford, 70’s Brighton), but this one tops the lot.
By the way, does anyone know whether the upper and lower window surrounds were actually two different colours (“white” and “cream”), or is it just a trick of the light in this picture?

Graham Woods

15/06/16 – 06:16

Graham,
It is a trick of the light, it was the same shade of cream at both upper and lower deck windows.

Peter Beevers

10/07/21 – 05:34

Blue Ensign Coaches Ltd was owned by my great grandfather George Ennifer who I am named after. I’m not sure if anybody will see this comment but it has been lovely reading the history and your memories of his company. It has brought me great joy, thank you!

George Ennifer-Stanley

12/07/21 – 16:18

So glad that you found the postings joyful, George. Rest assured that many of the folk who have an interest in this wonderful website will have seen your post. I hope you have clicked on Graham Woods’ link to see the aforementioned bus in full colour!

Chris Hebbron

East Yorkshire – AEC Regent V – VKH 34 – 634


Photo by “unknown” – if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

East Yorkshire Motor Services
1956
AEC Regent V
Willowbrook HBB56R

This is another highbridge Beverly Bar Regent V of East Yorkshire Motor Services this time a view of the near side, but what is very interesting is the single decker behind. You did not see many rear entrance full fronted bus or coaches, it is actually a 1954 Leyland Tiger Cub PSUC1/1 with a 5.76 litre engine and a Willowbrook C39R body. According to my British Bus Fleets book dated 1962 this batch of 14 had a centre entrance, were they converted sometime between 1954 and 1962. If you know, let me know, please leave a comment.
There is a much better photo of one of these single deckers here.

A full list of Regent V codes can be seen here.

Concerning the Tiger Cub mentioned there is no evidence for these ever having centre entrance/exits, but they were re-seated during 1955 as dual purpose, but still retaining the rear entrances/exits.

Keith Easton