Bradford Corporation Transport 1961 AEC Regent V MCW H39/31F
After my lengthy piece re the Routemaster yesterday I will keep the information on today’s bus to the point. It is a straight forward AEC Regent V with an AEC 9.6 litre engine, monocontrol four speed direct selection gearbox and air brakes, nothing controversial there unless you can come up with something, leave a comment if you do.
Bus tickets issued by this operator can be viewed here.
I lived in Eldwick in the 60s. The village was originally served by the West Yorkshire services 62/62A from the forecourt of Bingley railway station. At some time these routs were extended through to Bradford and became jointly operated with the municipality. West Yorkshire ran its trusty FS Lodekkas and Bradford Corporation its Regents. The Service runs up the side of the Aire Valley escarpment to Eldwick on gradients of varying severity. The Lodekkas had vastly superior hill climbing qualities to the Regents. When Bradford dual sourced Daimlers and PD3s the Neepsend bodied Daimler CVG6LXs were a far better proposition for this service in respect to the hill climbing potential afforded by the Gardener engine.
Charles in Australia
Charles, greetings!
I lived in Eldwick from 1957 until 1983 and have fond memories of the 62/62A service, which for many years terminated in the car park at the Acorn Inn. In time this had to move to Spring Lane where buses had to undertake a very tricky reversing manoeuvre. When West Yorkshire made application to extend the service to Bradford the Bradford Corporation sought licence for a rival service to the village. Eventually joint operation was agreed and I remember vividly the Bradford City Transport AEC Regents appearing in the village on driver route familiarisation duties. They made very heavy weather of the climb from Beck Bottom towards Dick Hudson’s. When the joint service began on 6 March 1966 the Bradford City Transport used Regents (which were housed at Saltaire Depot). The period of Regent operation was quite brief as in the autumn of 1966 the Corporation received a batch of 15 Daimler CVG6/30 with East Lancashire (Neepsend) bodywork. As you say, they were a far better proposition for the Eldwick route. The first seven of the batch 226-233 (EAK 226-233D) were allocated to Saltaire Depot, the rest 234-240 (EAK 234-240D) going to Ludlam Street and later finishing their BCT-days at Horton Bank Top Depot where they were used on the 9/10/12 Buttershaw-Stanningly and 76/77 Bradford-Halifax services. I was the last Junior Traffic Clerk to be employed by Bradford City Transport joining the undertaking on 1 October 1973. As I recall the Corporation’s Monday to Friday vehicle allocation to the Eldwick route was 2 buses (0625 out of Saltaire Depot and 0645). Saturday may have been different but Sunday was 1 bus (1005 out of Saltaire Depot). The other interesting aspect about the Eldwick route that I recall is that prior to joint operation with Bradford City Transport the West Yorkshire allocation would often be a Keighley-West Yorkshire Lodekka. In fact I recollect that in the autumn of 1966 not only did we have the new BCT CVGs but new Keighley-West Yorkshire Lodekkas (KDX 224-227).
Kevin Hey
15/08/11 – 13:32
This is No 123 one of the second batch of Monocontrol Mk V’s 121-125 which had the noisier dry liner AV590 engine rather than the previous A208 unit as used on the Mk III. They were reputed to be very thirsty and were outlasted by the previous 1959 batch of Monocontrol Mk V’s 106-120. With the arrival of new manager Wake from St Helens huge batches of St Helens spec synchromesh Mk V were ordered 126-225 to replace the trolleybuses. Bradford hills and ex trolleybus drivers made a lethal clutch destroying team and things got so bad two (224 225) were expensively fitted with Monocontrol and AV691 engines but with AEC fitting the heavy Mammoth Major clutch, things settled down and no more were done. Truly horrid things.
Kev
15/08/11 – 21:54
Well Kev, you have answered a question which has puzzled me for years, namely as to why the UKY batch were withdrawn before the PKY. Now I know! I always thought the PKY series were much better quality vehicles than the later batches. They certainly gave that impression, and I was a regular Regent V customer. I well remember 224 and 225 being fitted with Monocontrol, and thought they were thereby improved, but, as a BCT enthusiast, the mark V Regents are, to me, probably best forgotten!
John Whitaker
15/08/11 – 22:02
Kev, the reliable AEC 9.6 litre engines up to A218 were all dry liner engines, and these were replaced from around 1958 by the wet liner AV590. All the Southall wet liner engines were a constant source of trouble, and AEC finally gave up the struggle with them and went back to dry liners with the AH505 and AV or AH691. When driving them, I always felt that AEC engines were inferior in the low speed torque area to Gardner and Leyland engines, yet the London RT was always a more lively performer on hills than the RTL. When some red RTLs were painted green and sent to the Country Area, they were quickly deemed to be unsatisfactory, and were sent back again to be replaced by RTs.
Roger Cox
16/08/11 – 09:00
I’m on record as acknowledging the weakness of the wet liner AH/AV590. However, I’m not aware of major problems with Sheffield’s series 2 Regent Vs. Bradford’s territory is no more punishing than Sheffield’s and I cannot comment whether they were nasty or not. Sheffield’s weren’t. Did Bradford lack the will to work with them (as LT did with more modern buses)? What were Bradford’s maintenance standards like? [I don’t know.] Roger is correct about the characteristics of the three major engines. Noel Millier (respected PSV journalist of the ’60s and ’70s) calls the AECs the thoroughbreds, the Leylands and Gardners the reliable plodders. That is being realistically and honestly complementary to all three. OK, I am AEC man, but the PD2/3 is also one of my favourite buses. My experience with (albeit preserved) RTLs is that they move like slugs compared with RTs. Interestingly enough, experience driving RMs in service in Reading is quite the contrary. Reading Mainline’s Leyland powered RMs romped up Norcot Hill – so individual circumstances change constantly.
David Oldfield
17/08/11 – 07:21
Bradford were as good as anyone else at bus maintenance. The Mk Vs were purchased, I believe, as the cheapest option for mass trolleybus replacement. anyone connected with the City`s transport will tell you what horrors they were! I too like AEC`s, David, but not from that generation! They were noisy, juddering, rough riding and slow, and were hated by everyone in the City!
John Whitaker
17/08/11 – 07:24
David, it is a curious thing that London Transport always seemed to be the exception in proving any rule. The Fleetline debacle was probably the most extreme example, and much of the blame lay with the LT engineering system. Aldenham was designed to overhaul buses that could be dismantled like Meccano, and the RT/RTL/RTW, RF and RM classes were specifically designed to be taken to pieces and reconstructed accordingly. Other types like the Fleetline and Swift/Merlin, didn’t fit this bill. Yet LT, unlike many provincial operators, seemed to have very little trouble with the wet liner AV590 in the RM, though the story with the wet liner Reliance in LTE service was very different. The RW, RC and RP classes and their utilisation graphically demonstrated London Transport’s ability to waste public money.
Roger Cox
17/08/11 – 10:29
There is a clue in what John says. I recall, I think, that Bradford’s trolleybus withdrawal was not scheduled: do I remember that there was an accident- possibly a fatality- involving falling trolley booms and the Corporation took fright & withdrew the trolleys as quickly as possible? They may have then found that the plant- poles & wires- were in poor condition. This may have led to bargains being sought from manufacturers whose buses were going out of fashion? It would be typically Bradford not to embrace the “new” bustle buses, but look to tradition! Have I got my history right or are memories muddled?
Joe
17/08/11 – 13:22
Yes Joe, there was a trolley head fatality at Four Lane Ends which may have affected the abandonment schedule, but I think the main reason was the over hasty city centre redevelopment, most of which has itself now been demolished. BCT certainly utilised much second hand trolleybus equipment in the fifties and sixties, enabling it to last as long as it did, but events overtook them a bit, and they were faced with inflated motorbus demands. AEC were probably the cheapest option, and the Mark Vs were very unpopular among the public, even amongst the “a bus is a bus” brigade. Letters were written to the Telegraph and Argus about Bradford’s latest monstrosities! I am only an enthusiast, so cannot comment technically, and the Mark Vs did have some attraction to the enthusiast, even if it were just the unpopular aura which surrounded them! Were they really built by the same organisation who built the 1-40 batch some 12 years earlier?
John Whitaker
23/08/11 – 10:07
The Mark Vs in Bradford service had two major problems as far as I am aware. These were broken injector pipes, there being a fitter stationed at Forster Square to deal with these on a full time basis, and blown cylinder head gaskets probably caused by bad driving on steep hills where labouring the engine would cause this sort of problem. The injector pipe problem was of BCTs own making as the anti vibration clips were often not refitted at replacement. The problem was eventually cured by redesigning replacement pipes to something akin to a Gardner injector pipe so I was told by a gentleman who did this and later set up a business supplying pipes to Volvo for use on their engines. I have it on good authority from former chief engineer Bernard Browne that the difficulties in obtaining spares and the problems of day to day operation led to the later purchases of CVG6 and PD3A to enable replacement of early examples and provide more reliable motorbuses for the fleet
The City of Oxford Motor Services 1958 AEC Regent V LD3RA Park Royal H65R
The Regent V was in production from 1954 until 1968 there was a prototype Regent IV which had an underfloor engine but there was not much interest so it never went into production. According to research the only difference between the Regent III chassis and the Regent V was that the latter’s rear springs were ½ inch wider. There was two differences though the first being the obvious cosmetic one of the introduction of the AEC wide-bonnet front end with the more square traditional AEC radiator. The former exposed radiator style was still available until 1960 and quite a lot were built that way. The second but not so obvious was the direct selection epicyclic gearbox to replace the preselective gearbox of the earlier Regents, although about 100 were built with preselect gearboxes for a few operators, the normal clutch and synchromesh was also available. Engine wise the Regent V had the usual AEC 7·7 and 9·6 engines and in 1966 a 11·3 litre version became available, for some reason in 1955-56 the Gardner 5LW or 6LW was available no 5LW were built but a few operators took some 6LWs.
This vehicle was subsequently acquired by Provincial in 1970, becoming their no.80. It was one of seven purchased, the others being 970/2/5-7 CWL.
Stephen Didymus
05/08/19 – 07:14
May I respectfully correct a detail in your Regent V Chassis code panel? The ‘D’ is always for ‘Double-Deck’. So MD3RV is Medium/ Double-deck/ Synchro box/ RHD/ Vacuum brakes. ‘D’ is NOT part of ‘Medium’!
Doncaster Corporation 1956 AEC Regent V MD3RV Roe H34/28R
If you visit this site on a regular basis the last bus that was on stand was a Sheffield Corporation AEC Regent III that looked like a Regent V here we have a Doncaster Corporation Regent V that looks like a Regent III. It was possible to order the Regent V with an exposed radiator until 1960 which was six years into production before the wide bonnet look took over completely. In 1956 the Bentley trolleybus service in Doncaster was converted to motorbus operation and I think these Regent V buses were acquired to fulfil the part. The AEC code for this bus was MD3RV which meant this bus had the smaller six cylinder 7.68 litre engine with a four speed synchromesh gearbox and triple servo vacuum brakes.
Doncaster was, of course, famous for transferring some of its trolleybus bodies onto PD2 and CVG6 chassis when the trolleys were scrapped. The trolleys had been rebodied fairly recently so the bodies still had lots of life in them, and at least one of the PD2s still survives. They were unmistakable as they retained the thick second body pillar upstairs where the power cables were trunked up to the roof, and on the PDs the body never quite sat right over the windscreen, having a slight overhang.
David Jones
There are actually two survivors of this exercise. All the Daimlers that received the ex trolley bodies were new chassis as were two of the PD2’s however four of the PD2’s were some 16 years old already when their original bodies were scrapped and replaced by an ex trolley body. Both survivors are Leylands and represent 1 each of the ‘old’ and ‘ new’ chassis. When you realise that a lot of the bodies had themselves originally been built on second hand chassis as Doncaster took advantage of good second hand purchases thrown out as other operators closed down their trolleybus systems you’ll realise what a complicated story this was. 94, the oldest survivor actually received the body off EWT 478 that had originally been new to the nearby Mexborough and Swinton fleet in 1943 with a utility single deck body. The six vehicles of this type operated by M&S were bought by Doncaster in late 1954, the original bodies removed and scrapped and the chassis sent to Roe to be fitted with the new double deck bodies that would eventually find their way onto diesel chassis.The ‘new’ trolleybuses entered service in 1955 but would only have eight years use before the Doncaster trolleybus system closed in 1963. Trolleybus 375 and 94 live at Sandtoft Transport Centre.
Andrew
05/05/12 – 16:49
Three Yorkshire municipal operators bought exposed radiator AEC Regent Vs these being Doncaster, Huddersfield and Leeds. With the exception of the last ones bought by Leeds in 1960 all were short length vehicles. The last Leeds examples were the only ones to carry MCW bodywork and the only ones built to maximum dimensions They looked most imposing and were my favourite Leeds buses As far as I am aware the only other company to buy exposed radiator AEC Regent Vs was City of Oxford
Chris Hough
06/05/12 – 08:06
How refreshing Chris to hear favourable comment about Leeds 910 – 924. I too admired them greatly and have spent many hours in total trying to get the detractors to tone down their often wildly exaggerated abuse of these handsome buses. My only criticism of them was, from a driver’s point of view, that tall people like me had great difficulty in seeing in the nearside mirror due to the position of the canopy – I notice that on preserved 916 a mirror with a longer arm which will no doubt of cured that little blip – possibly the others were similarly treated while in service ??
Chris Youhill
06/05/12 – 08:06
Chris, my native Nottingham also bought 65 exposed radiator Regent Vs in 1955/56. They came in two almost identical batches with Park Royal bodies. The first 30 (UTV209-238) seated 61. The remaining 35 (XTO239-273) seated 62. They were the last of a long line of Regents that started in 1929 and over the years totalled 478. Subsequently NCT took 44 Leyland PD2/40s in 1958/9 (the first Leylands in the fleet), but reverted to AEC in 1965 for 42 Renowns which were Nottingham’s last half-cabs.
Stephen Ford
06/05/12 – 08:07
Chris Hough mentions the exposed radiator Regent Vs of Leeds City Transport with MCW bodywork, that dated from 1960 until withdrawal in 1975. Here is No. 915, 3915 UB on a rather dismal day in Leeds in April 1970.
Roger Cox
06/05/12 – 08:08
Rhondda Regent Vs 400-424 all had exposed Radiators and Weymann Orion bodies and I’m sure there were other examples.
David Beilby
06/05/12 – 16:47
Roger’s picture clearly shows the extended mirror arm which I mentioned – so presumably they were all similarly treated. The MCW body sat comfortably and tidily on the exposed radiator chassis. Also of interest in this picture is the destination “Kirkstall Forge” – a fairly unusual short working of services 24/5/6/7 from Swarcliffe to Horsforth.
Chris Youhill
06/05/12 – 16:48
Did anybody besides Sheffield have Regent III’s with Regent V grilles?
Eric Bawden
07/05/12 – 09:13
Chris Y mentions the preserved AEC Regent V from Leeds 916 3916UB This bus is non standard compared to the others of the batch as it was given an Atlantean front dome following an argument with a crane in the late sixties
Chris Hough
07/05/12 – 10:53
Another exposed radiator Regent V with the Orion body is seen here in Oxford, wearing the resplendent livery of City of Oxford Motor Services. The lowbridge version of the Orion, as worn by MD3RV304, COMS No.193, 193 BFC, always looked less gawky to my eye than the highbridge variant. The best looking Orion bodies ever built were surely those supplied to Aldershot and District in 1964/65 on Dennis Loline III chassis, where the visual balance was greatly improved by the low level of the lower saloon window line, and then enhanced further by the excellent A&D livery.
Roger Cox
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
11/01/14 – 07:44
It’s the first time I have been on your site and it has brough back some terrific memories. In the 60s and 70s I worked for Doncaster corporation transport department as a conductor and later a driver.The A.E.C. in your picture is coming of the bus stand on the North Bridge on its way to Bentley, in 1968 I was conductor on one of the Bentley service buses, it was in the summer, a very hot day and we were stood in traffic waiting to get on to the stand, along side us was a cattle truck, my driver was sat with the door slid wide open, a cow on the truck took short and peed on my mate, the door was jammed open, and poor old Jock couldn’t shut it. He was drownded in cow pee, the passengers on the bus burst out laughing and the bus shook from side to side. when we got onto the stand the cab floor had about 6 inches of cow pee in it, poor Jock was soaked to the skin. This is a true story the picture of the AEC brought it flooding back! the driver should be in the Guiness Book Of Records – the only man to be peed on by a cow while driving a bus! thanks for the memories.
Rog Haworth
13/01/14 – 08:36
Chris H, after death and taxes the next thing you can be sure of in this life is of being immediately proved wrong if you post on this forum! Mention has already been made of exposed-radiator Regent Vs with Nottingham and Rhondda – there were actually 27 Rhondda examples, 298/9, 400-24. I can add East Yorkshire – two distinct batches in the series 634-50 (VKH 34-50). There are two pages on this very forum devoted to these vehicles! www.old-bus-photos.co.uk/?p=8 & www.old-bus-photos.co.uk/?p=937 One exposed radiator Regent V which is often overlooked is this one of Bedwas & Machen. The photo comes from the collection of a regular contributor to this site, see above! I hope he doesn’t mind my linking to it. www.sct61.org.uk/bj9
David Call
15/01/14 – 05:55
In response to Eric B’s question re Regent IIIs with Regent V-style grilles, here’s one with a Regent V-style grille, but obviously not a Regent V-style bonnet. The chassis, a Regent III prototype, remained with AEC as a test chassis for several years, before being sold to Liss & District who had it bodied by Roe as seen here. Later recorded with Creamline of Bordon (an associated concern), and later still with Super of Upminster, it is thought to be depicted here with Creamline. The Regent III on the left is almost as interesting – it’s production chassis (type 9612A) remained with AEC for almost as long as that of 150AOU, before being bodied, again by Roe, for Liss & District, later passing to Creamline. Could these have been the only Regent IIIs to feature forward entrances from initial bodying? www.flickr.com/photos/
David Call
15/01/14 – 08:57
Yes, but don’t forget the (roughly) 80 Regent IIIs delivered to Sheffield in 1955/56 with Roe and Weymann bodies. They all had Regent V fronts. Sheffield wanted heavyweights and only the lightweight Regent V was available initially. They therefore took delivery of 9613S chassis with Regent V fronts.
Huddersfield Corporation 1961 AEC Regent V East Lancs H39/31F
The AEC code for this bus was 2D2RA this code started in 1960 and was really the start of the Regent V series 2. This bus is a straight forward Regent V being 30ft long 8ft wide has a AEC AV590 six cylinder 9.6 litre engine with Monocontrol four speed direct selection gearbox. This actual bus was sold to Kowloon Motor Bus, Hong Kong in 1973 I have searched the internet but can not come up with a shot of it in Hong Kong If you know of one please leave a comment with a link and I will update.
Here are a couple of links to photos of 194 in Hong Kong, the first whilst in operation and the second sadly at the end of its days.
In municipal days Huddersfield was technically two fleets these were the corporation fleet which served the town and the Joint Committee fleet which went to places like Dewsbury and Halifax. Prior to 1961 the corporation fleet was all trolley buses the first modern motor buses being a batch of Roe bodied PD3s. The Regent above is a JOC bus and carries a restrained red livery. The corporation fleet carried a nineteen thirties streamline livery that lasted until the late sixties early seventies. Eventually the JOC was disbanded and all Huddersfields buses wore the same livery
Photographer unknown – if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
East Yorkshire Motor Services 1957 AEC Regent V Willowbrook L31/28RD
Now we have two Regent Vs from a batch of 19 delivered to East Yorkshire in 1956/7 they were fleet numbered 634 – 652. 634 to 648 were 27ft in length had AEC 7.68 litre six cylinder engines a four speed synchromesh gearbox and a Willowbrook highbridge “Beverly Bar” style roof bodies seating 56 as per the bus on the right above. 649 and 650 had the same engine and gearbox but had Willowbrook lowbridge bodies seating 59 as per the bus on the left above. 651 and 652 were 30ft in length with AEC 9.6 litre six cylinder engines a four speed synchromesh gearbox but with Roe highbridge Beverly Bar style roof bodies seating 66. Another difference that 651 and 652 had was that they both had the more well known concealed radiator associated with the Regent V to see a shot of one of them click here. With regards the above shot the bus on the right must have a cold running engine, that is a rather large radiator blanking panel. Getting a photo that shows the shape of the “Beverly Bar” style roof is not easy as it was painted white and when shot in black and white the roof merged into the sky. I wonder why East Yorkshire ordered nineteen of these Regent Vs and not twenty seems a strange number to order to me
With regard to EYMS Regent V’s, there were two (or three) separate batches involved in the 19 vehicles referred to. The first batch was for 15 MD3RV;s 634 to 648, the highbridge ones, plus two lowbridge ones 649 and 650 (all were registered VKH 634-650) delivered November, 1956; plus two LD3RA’s 651 and 652 (registered WAT 651/2) delivered April, 1957. The numbering of these last two completed the gap between the first batch(es) and the first ex Everingham vehicle, which carried fleet number 653 (the whole series for Everingham vehicles was 653 to 664 plus 46!) These were acquired, of course, in November 1953.
Keith Easton
For many years the “Beverley Bar” VKHs were to be seen on the Leeds – Bridlington service (joint with WYRCC). I was a frequent traveller on them, having relatives then in Bridlington, and often went all the way smoking merrily with others in the lower saloon. EYMS were possibly the last operator in the Country to allow smoking anywhere in the vehicle ?? The Willowbrooks, fine in most ways, did though have possibly the worst sliding windows for incessant rattling. I wish we could still ride on them today when I travel in the present rattling thudding horrors that manufacturers are so proud of !!
Chris Youhill
Looks like the coach drop off point Bridlington coach station around the mid 60s
Mickey Summers
Sorry, Mickey – I think this is the main Hull bus park outside the railway station (in the background). This was the location where countless EYMS and KHCT buses would park off-peak, and was always a good place to take photos.
Paul Haywood
Yes, It is definitely the bus park now gone under ST Stephens shopping centre and Interchange. What a crime!
Keith Easton
I remember taking dozens of box camera shots on this site at Hull in the very early 1950s. There were rebodied Guys, TD4 and TD5s, some ECW rebodied, and some lowbridge all Leyland PD2s, as well as the usual BB Roe PD1s and PD2s, plus several single deck types inc the ECW PS1s, Burlingham coaches, and the usual “Federation” types. Fascinating fleet it was too. I particularly remember the oval rear windows of the pre war single deck stock (a bit of an out-dated feature) and the original 3 window upper fronts of the pre war Titans. We used the Bridlington to Hull service many times, via Barmston, Beeford, Ulrome and Skipsea, and it always seemed to be on a Roe PD1, which I remember as quite lively. An interesting fleet….perhaps it was the livery which held it apart from other BET fleets. Does anyone remember the slogan on the sides of several Brush PS1s…. “This is not a nationalised bus” ?
John Whitaker
09/08/13 – 07:54
My great grandfather designed and built the first Beverley Bar bus, his name was William Bundy. He lived in Sproatley till his death at 99 in a house he built himself.
Bernice Brumby
09/08/13 – 09:30
Yes John, I do remember the slogan and there was another version on the cove panels of single deckers – it boldly and unashamedly proclaimed “UN-NATIONALISED, UNIMPAIRED.”
Chris Youhill
10/08/13 – 05:52
Wasn’t that the point of the white band around the roof? . . . to make the roof blend into the sky and look like a normal low-bridge roof? (In which case why not paint the whole lot white, rather than just a band around the roof . . . suggestions on a post-card).
Philip Rushworth
11/08/13 – 06:50
I’m surprised that no-one else has picked up on this. The title to this page gives the registration of EYMS 649 as VKH 47, Keith Easton gives it as VKH 649, while the photo clearly shows it as VKH 49. In fact, all of 634-50 were VKH 34, etc. While I’m on this subject of EYMS Regent Vs, could anyone tell me why EYMS suddenly bought two lowbridge double-deckers? Did they have a true lowbridge route, or were the two Regent Vs someone else’s cancelled order? Also, how did Willowbrook come to build double-deckers to the ‘Beverley Bar’ outline? I thought the idea had emanated from a collaboration between EYMS and Roe, and had assumed that Roe had gone on to construct all the examples. (I don’t regard the Bridgemasters and Renowns as true ‘Beverley Bar’, they’re more like ‘pretend’).
David Call
11/08/13 – 09:29
Before the Second World War Brush built twenty-six Beverley Bar bodies and ECW twenty-one. Brush built more during the war (the PSV history and some published sources disagree as to whether all Brush bodies on the first Arabs were Bar buses) and ECW rebodied some Titans after the war whilst Roe rebodied the Arabs. The Willowbrook bodies were a shock and are not regarded by many as handsome a design as the Roe bodies on various Titans (the full fronted ones excepted) The bus park was useful to photographers, including myself, but for anyone wanting decent photos showing EYMS (or KHCT) at work in Hull it was a menace since many visitors rarely ventured outside this and the coach station. The best “Bar” bus portraits ( they’re too good to be called photographs) were taken by G F H Atkins in Scarborough on his holidays, mostly at Northway.
Malcolm J Wells
11/08/13 – 09:29
David, I’m pretty sure but without looking deeply that East Yorkshire did need lowbridge buses somewhere in the outer west of Hull – possibly Elloughton ??
Chris Youhill
15/08/13 – 07:03
It would seem that East Yorkshire’s Elloughton garage was the main home of the company’s lowbridge buses. The March 1962 and June 1965 editions of the Ian Allan “British Bus Fleets – Yorkshire Company Operators” both show East Yorkshire as operating the following lowbridge double deckers: 584-589 (MKH 402-407) Leyland PD2/12/Leyland L53R 632-633 (SRH 632-633) Leyland PD2/12/Roe L56R 649-650 (VKH 49-50) AEC Regent V/Willowbrook L59R (The 1965 edition shows the split of upper deck and lower deck seating capacities with 632-633 being L28/28R and 649-650 being L31/28RD. I had never personally noticed any lowbridge deckers with a capacity of more than 53 before). I am not sure though that the 1962 book is totally correct as in some R H G Simpson photographs I have there were also (at least) 505/506 (JRH 978/979) which look like Leyland lowbridge bodies but the book lists these two as Roe HBB54R (the ‘HBB code used to identify Beverley Bar buses with highbridge layout seating). In an EYMS allocation list dated 1 March 1962 584/585/586/588/633/649/650 were allocated to Elloughton and 587/589/632 were allocated to Hornsea. The allocation list dated 1 October 1962 shows 584/585/586/588/589/649/650 allocated to Elloughton, 632/633 allocated to Hornsea and 587 allocated to Withersea. The list dated 1 November 1963 shows 584/585/586/587/589/649/650 allocated to Elloughton and 588/632/633 to Hull (Anlaby Road). The list dated 1 January 1964 shows 584/585/586/589/649/650 allocated to Elloughton and 587/588/632/633 to Hull (Anlaby Road). Lists dated 1 April and 1 May 19 both show 585/586/589/649/650 allocated to Elloughton and 584/587/588/632/633 to Hull (Anlaby Road). In the same allocation lists the Willowbrook Beverley Bar bodied AEC Regent V buses 634-648 (VKH 34-48), which I always really liked and frequently saw in Scarborough. These were mainly allocated to Driffield Garage – I suspect for service 12 between Hull and Scarborough. The exceptions being in March 1962 635/636/644 were allocated to Bridlington; in October 1962 635/636 were allocated to Bridlington; in November 1963 and January 1964 were 634/635/636 allocated to Hull (Anlaby Road); in April and May 1965 634/635/636/637/638 were allocated to Hull (Anlaby Road) and 648 allocated to Bridlington.
David Slater
15/08/13 – 11:58
Interesting information David. Given that the nearest railway line and station to Elloughton today is Brough, a line which doesn’t have any low bridges, I wonder if the offending structures were on the old Hull and Barnsley line around the North Cave/South Cave area?
Chris Barker
17/08/13 – 11:54
I knew I had seen something in print somewhere about where the low bridges were on the EYMS routes and I can quote the following from page 6 of the Venture Publications Prestige Series book on EYMS which reads: “The standard lowbridge types were in the fleet because of only two low bridges, one at Hornsea Mere station and the other near Selby”. As an aside, the Prestige book also helped towards clarifying the point of the correctness of the 1962 Ian Allan British Bus Fleets book. The BBF book has grouped together in one block 50 Roe bodied Leyland Titan PD1A buses built between 1947-1950 and shows them all as “HBB54R” – the code used to indicate a highbridge bus with Beverley Bar roof profile. These 50 buses are listed as: 447-453 (JAT 415-421); 471-498 (JAT439-466) and 505-519 (JRH 978-992). However, as I mentioned before, I had photographs of 505 (JRH 978) and 506 (JRH 979) which I could clearly see were both lowbridge buses. The Prestige book shows a picture of 505 and confirms it was Roe bodied and not, as I had assumed, Leyland bodied – although the styling was very similar. So maybe these, the first two of the JRH batch were the only lowbridge bodies on that order and the list overlooked that fact. There is also a picture of 509 (JRH 982) which is a highbridge model.
David Slater
17/08/13 – 16:29
One has to be careful about sources The OS/PSV history of 1980 shows the following 420-425 PD1 with Roe H52R bodies (later H56R) 426-427 PDI with Roe L51R bodies 433-453 PD1 with Roe H52R bodies (later H56R) 471-498 PD1A with Roe H54R bodies 505-507 PD1A with Roe L51R bodies 508-519 PD1A with Roe H54R bodies The EYMS enthusiasts page says PD1, not PD1A Which version is correct? I have no idea. The early Ian Allan books could be very inaccurate as shown in the first Yorkshire Municipal book’s entries for Hull’s 190-9/204-39 which contained no references to those rebodied with pre-war Massey and Weymann bodies from Regents and Daimlers, despite the fact that these had taken place 7-9 years previously. The low bridge “near Selby” was, I think, at North Cave with the ex-Hull and Barnsley Railway Bridge although there may have been a problem at Willerby.
Malcolm J Wells
18/08/13 – 06:29
Malcolm, I had no idea that so many of the magnificent PD1s had been upseated from 52 to 56. Presumably a double seat was inserted each side in the upper saloons ??
Chris Youhill
18/08/13 – 12:00
As far as I am aware – yes. H30/26R instead of H26/26R, but I was a lad at the time and more interested in trolleybuses in Hull.
Malcolm J Wells
04/11/13 – 07:12
As a youngster I often travelled from Anlaby Common to Hessle to visit my Nana. The buses were always on service 3 Goole or service 4 Selby and if they were double-deckers they would be what we called “flat tops”- ie lowbridge. If for a change we walked through to Boothferry road to get a service 5 going to South Cave it was usually a “flat topper” too. For many years (1962 to 1969) I travelled to Beverley Grammar School from the Red Lion at Anlaby. For most of the time this was on the PD1A “JATs” and they went through Willerby without a problem so that bridge just short of Willerby Square mustn’t have been too low. Later we had the MKH full fronted PDs and latterly we had Bridgemasters or Renowns. It is always good to see photographs of “the muck” behind Ferensway Coach Station – where I spent many happy hours noting numbers, collecting tickets and when the crew allowed setting the blinds for the next duty.
David Cornwall
04/11/13 – 16:50
Whilst the bus park alongside the coach station was very good for seeing lots of EYMS and KHCT buses many enthusiasts went no further so that photos of buses at work are in short supply. Photographs of EYMS elsewhere in the city in the 1950s and 1960s are rare – most pics show Scarborough, Bridlington and Beverley with hardly any in the suburbs for EYMS and very few KHCT ones outside the city centre. Trolleybus enthusiasts tended to ride to and take pics at the outer termini as well as the city centre. Until the KHCT head office was built in 1962/3 KHCT buses could also be found on what was bombed damaged land alongside the front of the garage in Lombard Street.
Malcolm Wells
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
06/12/13 – 17:51
In common with several others who have posted EYMS comments, I too was – quote, unquote, a Grammar School git, who commuted between Willerby and Bev between 1963 and 1969. I must express particular gratitude to David Cornwall above, as he once lent me his 1964 copies of “Buses Illustrated” – I had only started buying it in 1965. I am delighted to see David remains interested in buses: my own enjoyment has never waned. Not being any good at maths, physics, Latin, games, woodwork – in fact not being very good at almost anything they tried to teach us at school – my nostalgia for those days is limited, but I would love to stop the clock and travel once again on the EYMS fleet of the mid-1960s. Our school run required about six buses each day, and almost anything from the fleet might turn up, even coaches on occasion. I was able to underline just about everything in the East Yorkshire section of my Ian Allen British Bus Fleets: Yorkshire Company Operators. My least favourite at the time were the JAT PD1s – Skidby Hill was always a challenge for them, but the AEC AV590-engined Bridgemasters and Renowns took it by storm, the Renowns being memorably melodious. I had a particular affection for the VKH Regents: ugly as sin, but what sounds they emitted, sweet AV470 melodies from the front, but a very rude raspberry of an exhaust.
Leeds City Transport 1966 AEC Regent V Roe H39/31R
Perhaps this snippet about Leeds City Transports AEC Regent V fleet number 980 which has been preserved and is stored at the Keighley Bus Museum may be of interest. 980 spent most, if not all of its service life at the Headingley depot along with the remainder of the batch 974 – 983. I don’t know the technicalities but it was fitted with some kind of modified exhaust system which gave a totally different tone to the norm, especially when pulling hard. As it passed its home depot on the routes northwards out of Leeds it was instantly recognisable by the unique sound alone. The tone was uncannily like that made by a water craft when the exhaust dips below the surface and accordingly amongst enthusiast staff 980 enjoyed the nickname “The motor boat”. Very happy days indeed.
Copy contributed by Chris Youhill
The exhaust sounds like an example of the famous AEC “straight through” exhaust – common on Regent IIIs, less common but not unknown on Regent Vs.
My passions are AECs and bodywork by Burlingham, Roe and Weymann. What a fine photograph of a beautiful bus. I am actually very concerned about the future of a similar bus ex Sheffield B fleet number 1330 registration number 6330 WJ which has been in the limbo of being half restored at Sheffield, South Yorkshire. An almost identical 2D3RA of 1960 vintage.
David Oldfield
I know the Mark IIIs wonderful barking “straight through” sound that you mean – this magnificent recital was fitted to most if not all of the Leeds City Transport “PUA” registration batch, of which 674 was undoubtedly the finest as it bellowed its way through the City Centre usually on services 42/66 from Harehills to Old Farnley/Leysholme Estate.
However the “motor boat” sound produced uniquely by 980 was quite different and was somewhat muffled and refined, perhaps best described as gentle “under water” bubbling. What priceless memories we are lucky to enjoy.
Chris Youhill
Work is well underway on the above vehicle…this site will be kept informed of developments in due course.
Mick Holian
Leeds City Transport always seemed to have a well turned out fleet of interesting vehicles, but seeing and hearing one of their many Regent Vs was to many of us the icing on the cake. Whether it was a handsome Roe-bodied example, or one of the plainer (but slightly more imposing?) MCW ones with exposed radiators, it didn’t matter. To the ear they were just the same – gorgeous! Perhaps best summed up as the mechanical sound effects of a Routemaster, coupled to the exhaust system of a decent sports car?! They were once a common sound booming their way up The Headrow past Lewis’s. If you were lucky enough, sometimes a skilled driver with a tuned ear would ‘hold’ a bus on its exhaust bark for quite a distance up the gentle incline. Bliss!….and a damned sight better than todays droning Volvo B7TLs!
Brendan Smith
Mention of the PUA registered 1952 AEC Regent IIIs brings to mind the Roe advert which adorned Leeds timetables for many years 669 was used until the nineteen sixties when it was replaced by a dual doored AEC Reliance in 1967 this was replaced by 131 the first of Leeds 33 foot Fleetlines the last Leeds bus to appear was a 1968 Daimler Fleetline with Roe dual door body. A small batch of these AECs carried very shapely Weymann bodywork.
Chris Hough
The six handsome Weymann “PUAs” were numbered 649 – 655 and they were a pleasure to behold from outside, and when on board you could enjoy some of the last Leeds buses to have the “warm” light beige window surrounds – I always thought that the subsequent silver ones were harsh and a retrograde step.
Chris Youhill
I have quite a collection of LCT photos click here to view. Some of them should bring back an odd memory or two!
David Beilby
25/09/11 – 07:18
Some of these AEC’s had a short spell with Tyne and Wear PTE (formerly Newcastle Transport) I believe they had been let down with a delivery of new vehicles and the AEC’s were brought in as a stop gap. They were used on the 18/19 Walker Circle route and were still in their LCT livery, but the panel around the radiator grill had been painted yellow.
Ronnie Hoye
25/09/11 – 09:00
I think that the L.C.T. buses that went to Tyne and Wear initially went to OK Motor Services but were not used by them. Tyne and Wear also painted the first panel on either side in their yellow livery.
Philip Carlton
25/09/11 – 09:03
They did look interesting in Newcastle didn’t they ?? The one in this picture though, 980, travelled even further north and served with A1 Services of Ardrossan in another fine green livery before being “repatriated” and is now approaching restoration to perfection standards at Keighley Bus Museum.
Chris Youhill
25/09/11 – 15:20
Further to my comments about LCT Buses in Newcastle, ironically, not long before the arrival of the LCT buses, Newcastle had decommissioned their own Park Royal bodied Mk V AEC’s, some were low bridge variants for the No 5 Ponteland/Darras Hall route, I also seem to remember some other foreigners from Edinburgh and Leicester were in Newcastle at the same time.
Ronnie Hoye
26/09/11 – 15:06
The PTE in Newcastle suffered a severe vehicle shortage and purchased a small number of ex Leeds AEC Regents and at least one Roe bodied PD3/5 all had PTE Yellow applied to their bonnets In addition the PTE loaned buses from Plymouth (MCW bodied Atlanteans) Lothian (Alexander bodied PD2s) Bournemouth (Atlanteans with Newcastle style MCW bodywork) Leicester (PD3s with East Lancs bodywork0 and Southend (Fleetlines with NCME bodywork)
Chris Hough
29/01/12 – 17:48
Yep about half a dozen Regent V”s and the PD3/5 along with all the other exotic birds were allocated to Byker depot and we had a trip out to photograph them. To add to the interest the restored Newcastle Leyland PD2 (in blue livery) and some ex Standerwick Bristol VRLL”s for the ferry services were also on shed. Newcastle was a very interesting place at that time. I am told that the Regents subsequently went to the magnificent OK motor services but not sure if they were ever used (possibly cannibalised for parts?)
Sheffield Corporation 1960 AEC Regent V 2D3RA Alexander H37/28R
This photo was taken just after lunch but as you can see this Regent V has the interior lights on, what a miserable day that was. I know this is not a very good shot but it is worth posting due to the fact that most Alexander bodied Regent Vs were delivered north of the border with the majority of them being to Glasgow Corporation. I think this vehicle one of a batch of 20 delivered to the Sheffield A fleet were the only ones delivered new to an English operator, if I am incorrect I am sure someone will let me know.
Sheffield like quite a few municipalities had separate fleets wholly or jointly owned within the overall operation.
Sheffield had three fleets A, B and C and were owned as follows.
A fleet Corporation owned (fleet numbers 1-999 in 1965)
B fleet Jointly owned by the Corporation and British Railways (fleet numbers 1251-1400 in 1965)
C fleet British Railways owned (fleet numbers 1150-1250 in 1965)
If you want to know the full specification for the Regent V 2D3RA you can look it up under the Regent V abbreviations here.
The only operator of this style of Alexander outside Scotland to predate them was Cardiff – definitely not England.
861 – 880 were the precursors of many Alexander bodies for STD, SYPTE and then Mainline. They looked good, and being AECs were good and sounded good. For some reason, the numbers didn’t add up. The Weymann and Roe 2D3RAs were all H39/30R(D – Roe) with bags of leg room. The Alexanders were H37/32R and whilst lack of legroom downstairs was understandable, what wasn’t was the distinct lack of room with fewer seats upstairs.
I have an unsubstantiated theory about the design – can anyone confirm, or squash it? Many 1940/50s Alexander deckers were built on Weymann (pre Orion) frames before this design emerged. Is it too fanciful to suggest that it was based on the same design and frames as the Rochdale Regent Vs and Sheffield Regent IIIs and Titan PD2s? [Curved domes and side windows?]
This Regent is on route 92 Manor Park – very close to the City Centre and would normally have had City on the blind. The photograph looks as if it was taken very close to the new Supertram depot and Park and Ride site which was not a regular haunt for these Regents. When new they could be seen on the 95 and 75 tram replacement routes and also drifted onto 60 and 38. Was this taken late in its life? The Alexanders and Roes were divided between Leadmill and East Bank garages, the Weymanns were all, I think, at East Bank.
874 was immaculately restored some years ago and is a regular on the northern rally circuit. But (trivia time), why did the last one (880) have a different type and style of rear number plate? I don’t know! If you know please leave a comment.
David Oldfield
02/03/11
Enjoyed the posting and the comment from David Oldfield with respect to the Alexander bodied Regent V’s. I must confess to liking the Weymanns a bit more, but the Scottish bodies certainly stood out with that rounded dome. When still relatively new, I remember these Alexanders often making a Saturday appearance on the 34 Petre Street – Graves Park, along with some of the Weymann ones, running from East Bank, and they looked even more unusual on there, alongside the 1947 vintage Weymann bodied Regent III’s of the 558-572 batch that were still the mainstay of this service at the time. In fact two 30 footers arriving at Reform Chapel within minutes of each other was apt to cause a bit of a problem, as there wasn’t a lot of room to spare at the bus stop alongside the chapel opposite the chip shop! I think the reason for 880 having a different rear end, with the registration plate in the standard position at the offside corner was that it had a rear end collision at some point, and emerged from Queens Road after repair in the altered state, thus making it unique in the batch. When new, a colleague informs me that all the Alexanders initially went to Bramall Lane for the 33 and the 75 tram replacement routes, with the 26 Weymanns being split between Bramall Lane and Leadmill Road. Noteworthy on the Alexanders was the first offside window behind the cab being a hinged emergency escape window, something which of course the Weymanns didn’t have. At least three of those superb Roe bodied ones were at Townhead Street when new, for use on the 85 to Retford, and also on the Dinnington services, where their platform doors were no doubt very well received, especially in the cold weather. The story has it that the Roe bodies initially lacked a centre stanchion on the platform, these being fitted sometime later after an unfortunately fatal accident which was attributed to the lack of a grab pole. More trivia!
Dave Careless
03/03/11 – 08:53
Dave. Thanks for filling in the allocation details. Townhead Street and Branhall Lane were operational when I was very young but had closed by the time I became really interested. I had forgotten, but you are absolutely right in every respect about the Roe centre stanchion and the fatality.
David Oldfield
04/03/11 – 07:39
Thanks David, I’m pleased you found that of interest. Those Roe bodied Regent V’s were wonderful machines, I always felt they looked a lot more elegant when they were new, with the standard Roe version of the Sheffield livery, with the blue window surrounds, and the classy bodybuilders gold transfer on the waistband, at the side of the cab and just forward of the entrance, very smart indeed. And the styling of that Roe emergency window simply couldn’t be beat! After Chaceley T. Humpidge took over as General Manager in 1961, and did away with the livery variations, including the grey roof after first overhaul (not that any of 1325-1349 ever saw this application), the Roes never looked quite as smart in the standard cream with blue bands, but that’s merely a personal preference. It’s a pity that you missed Townhead Street in its heyday, as that was quite something to see, with the trams downstairs in the basement and the buses up above, and a parking area along the side where half-cab single deckers seemed to invariably sit. Mind you, passing Greenland Road or Herries Road late at night, with the lights blazing and the garage and forecourt stuffed full of immaculate cream and blue buses, was equally as breath taking if you were an enthusiast! Quite often my father would indulge me and pull the car over for a few minutes so I could savour the atmosphere and jot down a few numbers; happy days.
Dave Careless
04/03/11 – 17:19
Happy days indeed, Dave. Barbie just doesn’t do it. Nor does red, white and blue – but at least Mr Souter does know how to run a bus company even if Dennis Dust Carts have as much charisma as a wet weekend in….. (fill your own space – I don’t want to upset friends on this site!) If you read any other posts, you’ll know my thing is AEC, Roe and Burlingham – so 1325-49 are my all time favourites, followed by the nine 1952 Regent IIIs. [I too preferred the Weymanns over the Alexanders.] Strangely enough, my favourite PD2s were the 1952 all Leylands which eventually gained Roe style livery after being delivered in green. I believe they were the only brand new green deliveries – or were the 1952 Regent/Roe rebuilds also delivered in green?
David Oldfield
06/03/11 – 08:06
You’ve got my vote there, David; funnily enough, those twelve OWB registered PD2’s were far and away my favourite Sheffield Titans also, they somehow looked a cut above the Faringtons, I think it was those push-out vents in the upstairs front windows that gave them the edge! Before I came to Canada in the late fifties, I made a regular weekly excursion with my mother from Rotherham to the grandmother’s in the east end of Sheffield, accomplished by bus and tram, a 69 from Rotherham to Attercliffe, and a tram from the corner of Newhall Road to Upwell Street, and reverse. In those days, the 69 offering was either a Sheffield PD2 or a Rotherham Crossley, either of which was guaranteed to provide a memorable journey, but if it happened to be one of the OWB’s that turned up, then that was definitely a bonus. The unmistakeable sound and steady beat of that Leyland engine is such a strong recollection that I can almost hear it now as I sit typing in Canada fifty plus years later. The world seemed to be a different place then, and I also travelled on the bus unaccompanied a lot at an age where it would be deemed unthinkable to allow children to do so today. I once travelled to Sheffield upstairs on a Rotherham Crossley that was packed with Sheffield Wednesday supporters heading to an evening match, and the air upstairs was blue with cigarette smoke and strong language, to the extent that I was enjoying it so much that instead of alighting at Newhall Road as I was supposed to, stayed on into the Wicker and had to catch another bus back to the east end. I can still see and hear that Crossley now, pulling away up the Wicker towards the terminus at Waingate, well down on its springs at the back with the nearly full load and trailing a plume of exhaust smoke behind it into the city centre. Those weekly outings on the 69 were sorely missed when they eventually came to an end. Of course, one of the OWB’s, 666, lived on as gritter/towing tender G56 for many years, and was a regular sight at one time, struggling back to East Bank with yet another broken down Atlantean hanging off its back. I’m not sure how, but even with its upper deck and most of the back end missing, it still managed to look more elegant than half the modern things it was sent out to rescue!! Not quite sure just when and where those Roe rebodied FWA-Regents got their green paint applied David, that one needs a fair bit of research. Good question though.
Dave Careless
06/03/11 – 09:06
Strange. An exile in Surrey corresponding with an exile in Canada. Good this internet, eh? I first went solo, on a bus, aged ten. From Greenhill to Woodseats on an SWE Regent III – and similar back – on an errand for my father. Mission accomplished, my second solo was to town and back on the same afternoon on two similar vehicles. After that, there was no going back! My experience of the 6** PD2s was mostly on the 93 and occasionally the 32 to visit Grandparents. They never seemed to be on the 23 when I visited the other Gps.
David Oldfield
09/03/11 – 06:05
Those SWE-Regents were cracking machines, superb looking, with their chromium wheel nut rings, which they seemed to keep right to the end, and the sound they made, with that straight-through exhaust, was quite something. What one wouldn’t give for a run from Greenhill to Woodseats and back on one of them today. Even my father, who wasn’t into buses at all, was heard to remark ” …. those Sheffield buses have a wonderful bark to them!” I still have a slide I persuaded him to take one day at Reform Chapel, in the east end, of SWE 281 waiting patiently for the crew to return from the nearby cafe before setting off for Hollythorpe Rise. Could that really have been 49 years ago??!!
Dave Careless
10/03/12 – 07:42
Talking of the terminus at Reform Chapel, we had a choice of two routes to centre at that time, the 34 Petre St to Graves Park or the 17 Sheffield Lane Top to Millhouses Park which had been recently been a tram service, being only about eight or nine when the trams ran, I wish I had been a little older so I would have had more interest in the trams, as it was my brother and I loved to stand at the front of the bus looking out over the engine compartment, which we considered the best view out of the bus, how disappointed we were when the Atlanteans were introduced and lost this vantage point! The uses on the 17 route were usually Leyland PD3’s as I found out later in life, as it sped down Attercliffe Road, we peered at the square speedometer to see if the bus would get up to or even break the 40 mph barrier, my fathers car at that time was a two cylinder Transit sized Jowett Bradford van which struggled to get over 30 mph downhill with wind behind us! Great days which the children of today will never know the adventure of bus travel, the smell, the noise and the vibration, more’s the pity.
David T
10/03/12 – 15:58
It’s hard to believe that an OWB was used as a towing tender, with something like a mere 36bhp on hand! That’s really pushing such a willing workhorse to near cruelty!
Chris Hebbron
———
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
11/03/12 – 07:47
With great respect David T I had to chuckle at the promotion of the Jowett Bradford van to “Transit” size – I think that such a colossal vehicle would have brought the willing little power unit to its knees, but the Bradford was a wonderful little van of around “Escort” size. In 1960 there was in Ilkley a delightful very elderly posh lady who used the most decrepit of all Bradford vans – both front wings were literally almost falling off and several volunteers were regularly needed to push start the van on the Ilkley car park. Well Mrs. S***** used to revel in telling us of her exploits and narrow escapes with a mischievous twinkle in her weary old eyes. My favourite (and one of her best) was when she was on the A59 in Preston heading for Blackpool – descending a hill towards the huge Tulketh cotton mill she encountered a bobby on cross roads point duty with hand raised – shooting past him she eventually rolled to a stop to find the PC chasing after her, notebook and pencil at the ready. “Have you no brakes on this vehicle” demanded The Law – leaving him perplexed as she set off Mrs. S***** replied “Of course I have officer – they simply failed to function !!”
Chris Youhill
11/03/12 – 07:50
I almost fell for that one Chris H!!
Chris Barker
11/03/12 – 08:56
Forgive me for being off topic but Chris Y’s tale of that Jowett Bradford van brought back old memories of one owned by Mr Mc.Maughan a local painter and decorator who was a bit of a carefree old sort and used to wipe his brushes out on the side of his van! Originally a mid fawn colour, it became covered in hundreds of multicoloured stripes.. it didn’t go any faster though..30 mph was a dream! Mentioning paint… when we lived in Conway Road, Brislington, Bristol, our neighbour Bert Staddon was an engineer at Bristol Commercial Vehicles and once hit on the strange idea of painting the stonework of his house in BCV silver chassis paint. That was in 1958 and to this day, it is still clearly evident but must have puzzled many people over the years..good stuff though! Again..total apologies for this thread drift.
Richard Leaman
11/03/12 – 15:48
As a youngster I made regular Sunday trips to Sheffield to see relatives. We travelled from Leeds to Sheffield Midland station, we then walked across the city to the terminus of the sixty nine to Rotherham. The buses seen were always of interest particularly the early Atlanteans which were unheard of in Leeds. Sheffield’s buses always seemed very different to those in Leeds Usually our steed was a Leyland Titan which always had a fair turn of speed they had string bell pulls which again were unknown in Leeds as was the strap placed across the platform when the bus was full. Prior to nineteen sixty if we were upstairs on the bus I got a glimpse of Tinsley tram depot with many cars resting from their labour, strangely I don’t recall ever seeing a Sheffield car actually running. It all seems very different to today were only the destinations tell you that you are in a different place
Chris Hough
11/03/12 – 19:33
Chris Y – Lovely tale about the Bradford. I have a friend who worked for Brooke Bond and they trundled around the country stocking up shops with Lever Bros/Unilever products. They were allocated Trojan vans, some of the earlier ones still having chain drive! They were gutless and, as a new employee, you covered staff who were on holiday or sick. His first job was in the South Wales Valleys and he got stuck a couple of times on the hills and had to be assisted to the top of hills. He later found that the normal driver had devised a fixed route, which had gentler rises and steeper falls, the only way he could do the rounds! Later models had Perkins diesel engines,, which had a little more power.
Chris Hebbron
11/03/12 – 20:13
The mention of Trojan Vans reminds me that Edinburgh Corporation Passenger Department had a good number as service vans.
A. Mayne & Sons 1965 Regent V 2D3RA Neepsend H41/32R
Another independent bus operator but this time from the other side of the Pennines, A. Mayne & Sons operated in the Manchester area. I must admit I know very little about A. Mayne & Sons but I have two photographs of AEC Regent Vs that are worth posting, so if anybody as any information about them please leave a comment and I will add it as an update.
This Regent had a body built by Neepsend formally Cravens of Sheffield South Yorkshire and the livery at the time if I remember correctly was a dark red body with three pale green bands, although I do stand to be corrected if you know better.
Maroon with turquoise bands would be more accurate. In later years they adopted a red and cream livery which was much more modern-looking, but far less distinctive! Maynes sold their bus operation to Stagecoach four or five years ago, but the name is kept alive by the coaching operation based on Warrington, which is actually the former Barry Cooper business. There is a nice story that back in the 1930’s Manchester Corporation offered to buy out the Maynes business. The reply was that this was an amazing coincidence, as Maynes were thinking of making a similar offer to MCTD!
David Jones
Another piece of interaction between Maynes and the Corporation may be worth recording. In the mid-1960s Maynes had a half-share in Manchester’s service 46 to Droylsden, as shown above, and also their own unnumbered service along the main road to Audenshaw, which ran in competition with Manchester’s trolleybuses. Since the trolleys operated under light rail legislation and were outside the Road Service Licensing system, this made Maynes the sole licensed operator of local (as opposed to limited stop) buses on the stretch of main road beyond the Droylsden turnoff. When the Corporation wanted to run motor buses on the trolley routes, they had to apply for a licence, to which Maynes objected on the grounds that it was their patch! This promised a real David and Goliath battle in the traffic court, but sense prevailed and a deal was struck instead. Maynes got the other half of the 46 (which they had always wanted) and both their objection and their Audenshaw service were withdrawn.
Peter Williamson
I’m not familiar with the “half share” referred to by Peter – but as far as I recall only Maynes operated the 46 from Stevenson Square to Droylsden [Sunnyside Road]. During the early Selnec years Maynes continued to operate the route which was renumbered 213. The story I was told was that Maynes started the 46 route when Droylsden was still being built and the roads unfinished. When the roads were completed Manchester then wanted to operate the route as well. Maynes are said to have objected and won their case with the only restriction being passenger pickup only between City centre and Ancoats – outbound and passenger drop off only from Ancoats to City Centre – inbound.
It is also interesting to note that up till the recent acquisition of Maynes local bus services by Stagecoach – Maynes original route 46 [subsequently 213] was their only local service which I think remained as such until the deregulation era. They then increased the number of routes between Manchester and the Ashton area. Of note is that ALL their routes went via DROYSLDEN, maintaining their original commitment to service this area.
Roy Oldham [Expat in London Ontario Canada]
According to “The Manchester Bus” by Eyre and Heaps, the 46 was jointly operated by Manchester and Maynes from its inauguration in 1958. However, “half-share” wasn’t quite right, as I have found a table of joint services in 1962 which shows that the all-day service required 3 buses, of which 2 were Manchester’s and 1 Maynes. Maynes original route – started in 1926 – was from Newton Street to Kershaw Lane, Audenshaw, although inbound buses always showed “Dale Street” as that was where the alighting point was.
Peter Williamson
I cannot comment on what the “Official” arrangements were between Maynes and Manchester – all I know is that I travelled between Stevenson Sq and Pollard Street quite frequently in the late 50s to late 60s and if not using the 215/216 trolley bus would take the 46. Invariably the return trip would be on the 46 as the trolley buses didn’t return via Pollard Street. If Manchester was in fact operating two out of three vehicles the odds are that I would get one, whereas in reality it was always a Maynes bus that came.
Roy Oldham
What became of the 46 service started in 1933 as a shuttle service from Edge Lane to Manor Road which connected with the existing Audenshaw service. As that area of Droylsden developed the service was extended gradually until it reached Sunnyside Road. The inconvenience of changing buses at Edge Lane became an issue and in 1958 the service was extended into the City and was numbered 46 by Manchester Corporation who became a joint operator in the ratios previously described. Peak hour extras were additional and provided by MCT in summer and Mayne’s in the winter. As Peter has already said above, the 46 became worked exclusively by Mayne’s following the abandonment of the Manchester trolleybus system.
David Beilby
Recently Buses Mag published an interview with Julian Peddle who at one time was Traffic Manager at Maynes, seemingly the financial arrangement with MCTD was that they paid Mayne’s a mileage rate who then paid MCT all their takings, an arrangement very beneficial to Mayne’s !
Andrew Critchlow
14/09/11 – 07:58
I was born and bred in Droylsden near the cemetery. I used the 2 Maynes services for many years until I went to London in 1959. When the Edge Lane to Sunnyside Road changed to no 46 Limited stop from Stevenson Sq I came home from work on it. I used the 215 216 to go to the City as the Maynes was usually full by the time it got to our bus stop. Sometimes I used it to go home until no 46 started as the walk from the stop on Manor Rd was shorter. When at school I used the 216 to Ashton and the Hurst or Smallshaw Circular or walked to school from Ashton market. My uncle Bill was a driver for Maynes and if I was on his no 46 going home he used to stop earlier than the bus stop so my walk was shorter. My Dad and Arthur Mayne were friends.
Alan Bevins
07/11/11 – 12:21
I use to use the Maynes bus in 1965 to get to work. I use to meet my father and we would go together on the bus from Sunnyside Road terminal to Stevenson Square and visa versa. Brilliant service and always full of people travelling in the early mornings and again at night.
Marie Mckenna
10/11/11 – 07:42
I now have a copy of the Maynes book by Venture Publications, and it gives a slightly different version from the Manchester book of the joint working arrangements on the 46, namely two Maynes buses and one Corporation rather than the other way round. Plus the peak hour extras referred to by David B.
Peter Williamson
12/03/13 – 14:05
In addition to the services listed above, Maynes also had a road service licence for the Droylsden to Audenshaw Grammar school bus which was operated as what would be known now as a commercial service. I travelled to school on one of the Regent V’s every day on this service in the 1960’s. Later I found myself driving Fleetlines and VR’s for Maynes for a short while – very nostalgic with Ultimate ticket machines.
Bill Lear
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
12/05/13 – 06:53
In 1964 I co-organised a student- teacher PD1 Leyland decker trip to Moscow from Manchester and as I wanted to keep my PSV licence going, I drove part-time for Maynes Buses from 1965 until I left Manchester in 1978. At the time I was teaching first at Manor Road Primary and then at Bishop Greer Secondary in Gorton. I lived on Greenside Lane near the Clockhouse terminus. My inauguration was on GUF 678 – a Leyland PD1 slow gear change, so I had no problems in satisfying the requirements. (the drivers used to say “You can light a fag in between gear changes”) Mr Palmer was the manager under Arthur Mayne Jnr. and Alex was the mechanic. I drove on the last Kershaw Lane route (Dec 31st 1965) when they changed the route from trolley buses and swopped it for the 46 Droylsden Route. My first trip from Droylsden, Market Street to Mayne Road was a different story. I was given an AEC Regent II FT 571 with a quick crash box change and I could not find any of the gears. I got the timing wrong and could not stop with the vacuum brakes at Edge Lane Traffic lights. With the help of the passengers they directed me to Mayne Road. Phew! I thought my days of driving for Maynes were over, but they were just beginning. Last journey was on a Bristol VR to Rochdale VJA 666S. First new bus was on a Sunday morning in July 1965 Regent V CXJ 520C. It had air brakes and stopping was very fierce. I remember one man hitting the bulkhead as I braked for Market Street on route to Kershaw Lane, Audenshaw. Oh Dear !! I could share many comments as I drove all the fleet of deckers. My favourite was Ex Oxford synchro 27ft 7194 H. The pre selectors were also good ECY 874.
John Brown
04/12/18 – 07:17
Just a very small correction to John Brown (above), 7194 H had, prior to Maynes, been an AEC demonstrator, but I believe it did carry City Of Oxford Motor Services livery at the time.
Bradford Corporation Transport 1963 AEC Regent V 2D3RA MCW H40/30F
I have a personal “adoration” for these BCT Mark V Regents – a liking in which I appear to be virtually alone !! The “Mononcontrol” vehicles were in the minority, the first twenty only, the remainder of the large fleet being of three pedal four speed synchromesh specification. The Bradford attractive livery and superb internal fittings, materials and seats cured any suggestion of “plain-ness” in the MCW bodies. However it was in the mechanical area that these buses were so appealing. They had the open exhaust system with exhaust brakes and made magnificent sound effects, both when slowing down or when pulling hard away from stops and up hills – Church Bank was a treat not to be missed. The wonderful pre-war vintage type sounds from the AEC gearboxes and arguably inadequate clutches completed this delightful mobile symphony. Sadly though they appear to have been loathed by drivers and passengers alike, apparently giving a very rough ride indeed unless expertly handled by someone with a real interest in the job. There is a fabulous chapter about them in Mr. J. S. King’s superb volume on BCT buses, in which their Southall character is well and truly assassinated from all quarters of the City. I remember one Saturday evening visiting Saltaire Depot after the last trolleybus had left there for ever. The yard was full of brand new Mark Vs, and someone had taken the trouble to very accurately set every route number to “OIL” to rub it in so to speak. Here is a picture of one of the synchromesh motors, number 168, making noisy (magnificent for me) but light work of Morley Street en route for Buttershaw.
Bus tickets issued by this operator can be viewed here.
These were direct contempories of Sheffield 64 – 73 whose only sin was to have monocontrol rather than synchromesh boxes. In this respect, their 1960 sisters 435 – 460 had the edge. As an out and out Roe man, I am, nonetheless, a Weymann supporter. Apart from an aberration with the 1956/7 Regent III/V with lightweight bodies, all Sheffield Weymanns – including the two batches mentioned above – were finished to the highest standards. I never felt noisy or rough riding were apt descriptions of Regent Vs and I preferred the sounds of the manual versions – although the monocontrols did have a slight suggestion of the preselect sound!
David Oldfield
Although I am unfamiliar, personally, with these vehicles, I can readily understand why drivers disliked their exhaust brakes if they were anything like the ones I knew. Maidstone & District, a company about which I do know a little bit, had some Guy Arabs with exhaust brakes, which made an appalling, quite deafening noise in the cab when the brakes were applied. Half an hour driving a bus fitted with one would give you a headache for the rest of the day. They were only an auxiliary, of course, and either the mechanism failed in use or was disconnected at Chatham Depot, where the vehicles were based. A truly dreadful feature.
Roy Burke
Having driven Bradford 220 at Keighley Bus Museum many times I can understand why drivers disliked these Regent Vs. They are noisy, with very fierce brakes and a juddering clutch which makes them difficult to drive smoothly, especially in traffic or in hilly country (and Bradford has the odd hill!). In Bradford Corporation Transport days they were notorious for breaking injector pipes, to the point where a fitter was employed virtually full-time in the City Centre just to keep up with breakdowns. One of our (sadly deceased) former members who worked for YWD always referred to the Regent Vs as “overtime buses” he reckoned they were the finest bus ever invented for generating overtime for fitters!
David Jones
I have to agree with Chris Youhill’s sentiments regarding Bradford’s Regent Vs as I too adored them! I recall them taking over from the lovely trolleys on the Saltaire/Bingley/Crossflatts services in the sixties. As a ten year old I was bowled over by the wonderful sound effects and impression of speed when riding on these beasts. The rear ‘stopping’ signs beneath the back windows instead of traditional brake lights were so modern. Certainly the attractive Bradford Corporation Transport livery showed the bodywork off to good effect, and they could hold their own with the West Yorkshire Lodekkas plying alongside, as far as interiors were concerned. Raucous? No-just full of character!
Brendan Smith
Thank you for your support Brendan – much appreciated indeed.
Chris Youhill
Fine Machines!.. Unloved by most people, but simple to work on, Melodically on Parr with a popular Beethoven!.. As regards the exhaust brake?.. I did come across a brand new one boxed up in our stock sometime ago.. in time I shall track it down and install it!
Mick Holian – B.C.T. 220 Custodian
I know from Sandtoft and elsewhere Mick that you DO know how to drive these characterful machines properly, 220 in particular, so keep up the good work !! You won’t remember me, but you once long ago very kindly allowed me to turn back the clock and sit again behind the wheel of Leeds City Transport 980 in the museum at Keighley. Then we had a useful chat about a certain aspect of Mark V accelerator pedals.
Chris Youhill
Well, Well, Well! Yes I do recall that conversation Chris!.. that’s sometime ago isn’t it?… I sorted the problem with some rubber hose & new springs! to say the clatter on the over run was a niggle was a massive understatement… it drove me mad! And yes I remember being scalded by the Sandtoft Natives for making too much noise & driving too fast! You will be pleased to know that I have been quietly rebuilding the front of Leeds City Transport 980 from parts sourced from an Ex-Southampton turned glider winch Regent V, The museum is planning to use it on a class 6 from early 2011, If I have my way? which I should as I’m doing the work? it will be presented in the livery with the red wheels.. fingers crossed! can’t wait to hear that go through its gears! I am also hoping to have Bradford Corporation Transport 355 Fleetline make an appearance later this year, its coming together nicely, take care Chris, really good to hear from you & watch this space!
Mick Holian- Keighley bus Museum.
Many thanks Mick for your kind message and news of very impressive progress – I agree that 980 will be most authentic and impressive in the “red wheels” livery. I’ve never yet been to the new Keighley premises and must do so soon. My first experience of the Mark V “pedal chatter” was with the six new ones which we had at Samuel Ledgards, 1949-54 U. These had synchromesh gearboxes and the large flat pedal as opposed to the smaller “ball” type. The half mile where the quirk was at its worst was when descending the A65 from Horsforth to Kirkstall Forge. There were at that time a good many hidden ripples in the road surface, and during braking the free rattling of the accelerator pedals was actually sufficient to cause the engine to pull against the brakes – a very strange sensation indeed.
Chris Youhill
After the really top of the job Mark III the Mark V was a different animal, bigger heavier and with the AV690 engine they were a let down, a 50’s obsession in the industry with fuel consumption had them fitted with synchro boxes. Generally with easier steering, softer feel brakes they were nicer than contemporary Leylands but not as mechanically strong. The Met Cam Aurora body was not good, they rotted badly, rained inside, had poor heaters and were often described as fitters friends. WYPTE examined fitting Dorman V8 engines in an effort to improve performance but opted to put 95 Metropolitans into Bradford instead, they were mechanically even worse! especially the HR501 hydraulic gearbox. The last two were much much better with mono control and 760 12.47litre engines VROOM!!!!!!!!!!
Christopher
The mists of time have caused most folk to forget that the first forty Scania Metropolitans were ordered by Leeds City Transport – an absolutely astonishing move for such a conservative and careful operator. They were delivered to LCT, but not placed in service, just before the formation of the PTE in April 1974, and many were first stored at Middleton Garage where they huddled uncomfortably together – many top decks touching – as their air bags were of course empty after a while. I know they had a wonderful performance, but I believe the fuel consumption didn’t bear thinking about. Despite their very limited success, I thought they were most handsome vehicles.
Chris Youhill
One of Leylands better legacies was that, through licensing manufacture of what were excellent engines – particularly the 0.600/0.680 family – the line lives on in the superb modern units produced by both Scania and DAF/PACCAR.
The Metropolitans suffered by being quick and encouraging a sprightly style of driving which was not very economical. This might have been forgivable, but the bizarre use of a two speed torque converter transmission gave these machines a big “drink problem”.
The biggest weakness – which was never solved to the end of MCW days – was a tendency for the metal frames to rot. This often gave “modern” MCW products a shorter life than they perhaps should have enjoyed.
David Oldfield
I am so happy that I found this site by accident, although quite a veteran myself I’m in the modern passenger transport industry – a driving instructor for Arriva, the Shires. I am in awe of the knowledge of your principal contributors. As a boy in Shipley W Yorks., I used West Yorkshire’s 66 service to Forster Square, Bradford and Bradford Transport’s trolley to school in Saltaire.
Bill Loy
Oh what happy days Bill – I was a young conductor on West Yorkshire (Ilkley Depot) in 1960/1 and many’s the time our Lodekka drivers were left gasping in the offside lane by the wonderful Bradford trolleybuses as they “mischievously launched at speed” from the stops in Manningham Lane and Frizinghall. I spent my last fourteen years of a fabulous and enjoyable forty four year career as a driver for South Yorkshire Road Transort/Caldaire/British Bus/Arriva “serving Yorkshire” at Pontefract Depot (now demolished).
Chris Youhill
Leeds 150 short AEC Regent V delivered in 1956/57 were all light weight affairs but the body style was pure Roe being a natural follow-on to the AEC Regent III delivered in 1954 The lightweight vehicles in later years were absolute rattlers with every opening window and seat back vibrating as they idled, particularly on hills. The first 30ft AEC Regent V were a very different kettle of fish being bodied by MCW and being unusual as they carried exposed radiators. They had a massive presence in the flesh and were and still are amongst my favourite Leeds buses.
Chris Hough
I was a student in the late 70s in Bradford. Unfortunately by that time the Bradford blue had been replaced by the none too attractive green and cream of WYPTE. Nonetheless, I always wondered how they ever managed to climb the hills out of the town centre. 2168 was a regular on the 63/636 up to Heights Lane and Sandy Lane and hearing the gears crash as it set off up Oak Lane out of St Mary Rd. Compared to the CVG6s which also operated the route they were noisy beasts but had loads of character. Ah, fond memories!
Phil Ashton
I agree entirely with Chris Hough about the fifteen exposed radiator Mark Vs at Leeds – they were magnificent motors and in my opinion very handsome too – although after all these years I am now used to endlessly defending the “Orion” type bodies which are much maligned for some reason. I try not to decry batches of buses per se in their entirety, but oh how I loathed the gutless rolling little lightweight Mark Vs at Leeds. Mind you its perhaps fortunate that the Leeds policy of “cutting engines down” restricted them to only just over 30 mph. That rearward facing seat for five was nothing short of obscene, with passengers’ knees unavoidably jammed between those of people sitting opposite. As I said earlier in this topic, there can be few batches of vehicles with as much individual character and impressive performance as the wonderful Bradford Mark Vs – I’ve always loved ’em !!
Chris Youhill
As I’ve suspected for a long time, Chris Youhill is a man after my own heart. My preference is always for a big engine with plenty of torque. An AEC man to my marrow, I have never been much of one for the medium weights – particularly the deckers. We never had any in Sheffield, they would never have coped with the hills!
David Oldfield
The photograph of 168 labouring up Morley Street with the sun shining after a spell of rain is superb. Services 9/10/12 Buttershaw-Stanningley were operated jointly by Horton Bank Top and Thornbury Depot. I would hazard a guess that 168 was a Thornbury vehicle. I was the last person to be employed in the BCT Traffic Office at Forster Square. I joined the undertaking on 1 October 1973. By this stage the bulk of the Regents were to be found at Ludlam Street and Thornbury Depots with small allocations only at Bankfoot, Bowling Depots etc. Ludlam Street operated the following rosters: Eccleshill (43/44), Fagley (14/34), Haworth Road (29/32/33/35), Huddersfield (63/64) Leeds (72/78/272), Tyersal (30) and The MBMR (Motorbus Miscellaneous Rota – ‘The Old Mans Road’). Funnily enough the Stanningley roster at Thornbury was full (as were most Thornbury rosters, except Wibsey which covered the 45/46) except for one driving line against a conductor whose name I cannot remember but whom no one was prepared to work with on a regular basis. I recall vividly that the Eccleshill, Fagley and Haworth Road rosters had few regular drivers, which was something of a puzzle. Now, looking back, I wonder whether this was due to the Mark Vs, which were often to be found allocated to these duties. I suspect that the drivers felt that working a duty on these rosters with a Mark V on overtime was just reward for the effort involved.
Kevin Hey
Always loved the Regents, living in Fairweather Green as a kid we tended to get Leylands on Thornton Road but the AECs were always a favourite. Im more of a lorry enthusiast and surprise surprise a big AEC fan
Paul G
Re. Bradford`s Mk V Regents; I rode on these regularly, and they always made me think how inferior they were compared with the refinements of the Mk.111 !! However, they were something to enthuse over, and became something like a “Bradford Standard”. I could never forgive them though for their part in the demise of the BCT trolleybus system!
John Whitaker
I did about 4 years at BCT in the early sixties , and remember the Regent Vs as fantastic work horses – but the brakes were rather “savage”. I worked out of Ludlam St. but also had a 12 month spell out of Duckworth Depot mostly on the Thornton route – many fond memories.
Tom Mirfield
26/08/11 – 07:21
I remember the original batch of PKY-registered Bradford Mk. V’s bursting impressively and noisily on to the scene on the 64 service when travelling from Brighouse to Huddersfield with my mother to visit my grandfather. I was seven years old, already a bus enthusiast, and I was very impressed with them. I started driving for Halifax Passenger Transport in 1973. There were still more than half of their own Metro-Cammell bodied Mk V’s in service, and they were OK, though getting a bit tired and leaky. There were also three ex-Hebble ones – one having Northern Counties bodywork – and these went much better, and were far nicer to drive. Then shortly after the formation of WYPTE, Metro Calderdale found itself with a serious vehicle shortage, and a number of interesting buses were borrowed from other districts for a few days. Amongst these were several ex-Bradford Mk. V’s, all still in blue and cream. This didn’t go down very well with most of the drivers, who generally detested AEC’s. They were returned after a week or so, but then in October 1975 two more – 2209 & 2213, also in blue – appeared, this time officially transferred. 2213’s stay was only to be very brief, coming to a sticky end when it failed to negotiate the right-angled bend over the disused railway bridge at Holmfield Mills one frosty morning. 2209 stayed for six months. I got to drive it a couple of times and it was brilliant compared to ‘our own’ Mk V’s. Then a further three came in February 1976. 2136, 2137 and 2138 they were in PTE livery, and they stayed with us until the July. I have always been an AEC man, but these were a revelation. Yes they were noisy, whiny and raucous, had jangly accelerator pedals and may not have been as technically durable as they could have been, but they had so much in-your-face character and were an aural delight. In fact, I have driven buses in Halifax for over 38 years now, and if I had to nominate my all time favourite bus from the point of view of absolute driving pleasure, it would definitely be 2137. On Saturdays we had a duty which came out of Garage at 10:43 then worked Boothtown ‘flashbacks’ – three per hour in between the 76 Bradfords. I always tried to persuade the Shed Foreman to allocate me a Bradford Mk. V, and he usually obliged in order to get rid of one to a driver he knew would not ring it in. This could well be a really tedious duty, especially if lumbered with a tired out old PD2, or a thoroughly horrible early Fleetline, but with a Bradford Mk. V I was like a pig in you-know-what all day. In those days Boothtown Road was built up just about all the way, and the trick was to adjust the engine revs, gearing etc. to create maximum aural effect, so that the raucous, growling, booming exhaust reverberated off the stone buildings. Our own Mk. V’s did not have the ‘booming’ exhaust feature and so were nothing like as gratifying. Finally one Saturday, word came that they had to go back to Bradford. There were not enough garage staff to oblige so being a spare driver that day I was asked if I would take one over to Ludlam Street. Silly question of course, and I grabbed 2137 and headed in a roughly Bradford direction. This must have been the longest journey a bus ever made between Halifax and Bradford ! Eventually I reached the City Centre and decided as a final gesture I must take it around Forster Square and sweep up Church Bank as I had seen – and particularly heard – them do so many times in the past. The sound effects still echo in my mind to this day. Brilliant !
John Stringer
26/08/11 – 09:23
Nice story John, I can still hear that exhaust!
Roger Broughton
26/08/11 – 10:07
What a wonderful story John, and you are obviously as fond of the Bradford Mark Vs as I am. There can be few models/batches in PSV/PCV history with as much gutsy and unashamed character as these buses – they seemed to cheekily proclaim “Hold onto your hats for a thrilling ride, and if you can’t take it get a taxi !!” You did right to fit in a memorial ascent of Church Bank and I too, can still hear the magnificent concerto. I believe that there were frequent vacancies for organists at the Cathedral as few could compete with the Southall Symposium !! Somewhere I have a very old cassette which I recorded one Saturday night on a Bradford Moor bound Regent – propelled by undoubtedly the worst driver ever – he should never have passed his test, but for enthusiast pleasure purposes it was magnificent ride never to be forgotten.
Chris Youhill
26/08/11 – 14:27
The regular vacancies for organists at the Cathedral were due to the clergy from hell. [I mean it can back up my comments with evidence!] You can’t blame it on the Regent Vs.
David Oldfield
26/08/11 – 18:03
I have really enjoyed the correspondence on Bradford`s notorious Mark Vs, especially the comments from those “in the know” who drove them! As an enthusiast, I well remember the first ones in 1959, the PKYs, and the 5 1961 UKY batch. They all seemed to be quite heavy and substantial buses, and made nice noises (!!). They were ordered by the Master himself, C.T.Humpidge, and were the first dd. motorbus orders since the 1952/3 HKW batch of Mark 111s, and consequently re-ignited a lot of enthusiast interest in what was still the “Trolleybus era”. 126-135 though, were ordered by Mr Wake, and made the most unpleasant reverberating noise, and, replacing trolleys on the Bradford Moor route, seemed almost static when climbing Church Bank. The trolleys just glided up! The following 90, up to 225 in 1964 were more like the 126 batch, and what I can say, with certainty, is that most Bradfordians expressed a hatred for them, as did, I believe, the engineering staff. This is not to say that there wasn’t a certain attraction about them. I was a regular rider, and cannot remember any other batches which suffered so many breakdowns and problems, but it is this notoriety which, as an enthusiast, attracted me to them. I would say, looking back, that most of the Bradford bus enthusiast fraternity were of the trolleybus ilk. I was as far as BCT was concerned, and it is perhaps this which colours our remembrances of them. They were trolleybus replacement vehicles. How dare they! I am sure, however, that they did not demonstrate that level of sophistication which the Mark 111s had, or the PD2/3, and subsequent Leyland and Daimler deliveries. Nice, however, that they are so well remembered, and I must visit the preserved one at Keighley! Does anyone know when the last survivor ran for the PTE fleet?
John Whitaker
26/08/11 – 18:04
The mention of Halifax brought back memories of my own experiences with the HPTD Regent Vs. I was a Traffic Clerk at Skircoat Road in the mid nineteen sixties, and we office types (having been put through the PSV test by GGH) would volunteer to cover the second half of late turns in the week, or a full late on Saturdays. I much preferred to do a turn on the Brighouse – Hebden Bridge run whenever possible, and a Regent V was frequently the beast that turned up on taking over the wheel. They were easy to drive, having much lighter steering than a PD3, and the all synchromesh box was a doddle to use, but the noise from the engine and gearbox was unimaginable at times, including the hellish racket from the accelerator pedal when one was braking or descending hills. The very light clutch needed careful handling to avoid judder on pulling away. Also, unlike those of the Regent III, AEC brakes of that period were not progressive. Depression of the pedal brought no effect until suddenly the the brakes came on fiercely. Easing off the pedal then did nothing until, with a hiss of air escaping, the braking effect was lost. Why AEC lost the ability to design smooth progressive air brakes I do not know, but this was a feature of AEC air braked buses, including the Reliance, for years afterwards. I am not a great AEC fan, and the Regent V is part of the reason for this. Geoff Hilditch of Halifax was not an admirer of the Regent V either.
Roger Cox
27/08/11 – 07:20
Oh Heck David – I’m in deep water here am I not ?? My comment about the ability of the Mk Vs to “see off” the Cathedral organ was meant to be a comical one – I had no idea that there had actually been a high turnover of organists caused by the “opposition clergy” to who you refer.
Chris Youhill
27/08/11 – 07:21
Roger says in his last post that Geoff Hilditch was not a fan of Regent Vs In his guise as “Gortonian” in the sixties and seventies he rightly states the Regent III was one of the best buses he had the pleasure of working with. My home town Leeds certainly got the best out of their 30ft AEC/Roe Regent Vs However the short light weight tram replacement examples dating from the late fifties were nowhere near as good being absolute rattlers by the end of their lives. Now the MCCW bodied 30 footers of 1960 were a whole different kettle of fish and to mix metaphors were definitely my cup of tea!
Chris Hough
Truth is always stranger than fiction, Chris. My spies in the South confirm that Sheffield had no particular problems with Regent Vs and Charles Halls states that engineers regarded the late ones as among the best vehicles they had run. Regent IIIs were evidently better, but so were later dry-liner Reliances (AH691/AH760)….. and I wouldn’t give a Medium (really light) weight decker house room anyway (whether AEC or Alexander Dennis)!
David Oldfield
28/08/11 – 15:48
This may be an urban myth but I was always told that Yorkshire Woollen cut down the engines of their Regent Vs and that AEC ordered that their AEC triangle badges be removed. A certain person who is today a PCSO who worked in the paint shop at Dewsbury kept them in his locker.
Philip Carlton
29/08/11 – 07:52
Philip, it may be an urban myth but it’s a widely known one.
David Oldfield
28/09/11 – 07:06
Re Aec badges on YWD Regents. Quote from Buses Illustrated Dec1964 “The AEC Regent Vs are being “spoiled”, we hear. The chromium radiator surrounds are being painted red and the grilles black. The famous AEC triangle is being removed”.
John Blackburn
14/11/11 – 07:53
Sorry but can’t share your enthusiasm for Bradfords manual Regent V’s bought by the ex St Helens Manager (Wake) for Trolleybus replacement although I must admit they lookrd very attractive in Bradfords Blue and Buttermilk. AEC’s straight cut gears gave an almost 30’s sound. The manual gears were not really suitable for stop start on Bradfords hills and with the help of ex trolleybus drivers clutch life was appalling until AEC fitted Mamorth Major (Very Stiff) clutches, To try and improve things the last two 224 and 225 were expensively converted to AV691 engines and Monocontrol gears but no more were done due to cost. My mother used to refer to them as “those jerky buses” and often waited for one of my beloved AEC Regent III’s with very musical preselectors from Bank top shed. The last batch 195-225 were better trimmed in “felt pen friendly” light blue and dispensed with the fierce exhaust brakes of the earlier ones..
Kev
28/11/11 – 10:35
Oh Dear ! People are very polarised about the merits or otherwise of AEC Mark Fives it seems, but sometimes I feel the point is completely missed. It all depends on your point of view. As a bus driver, but also an enthusiast, I found that driving a good one was simply a most enjoyable experience, particularly in the sound effects department. Very sensuous even. Sorry, but I just did ! This despite all their indisputable shortcomings – unreliability, self-detaching injector pipes, weak and temperamental hydraulic clutches, general noise level, rattily accelerator pedals, bonnet lids that blew open in crosswinds, keen brakes and poor accessibility for maintenance due to their tin fronts….. and so on. As a passenger or general observer, but also an enthusiast, I still believe that Hebble’s earlier Mark Fives – the rear entrance ones with the Mark Three type A218 9.6 engines were the most aurally spectacular buses I have ever encountered, with their loud, growly open exhausts and booming exhaust brakes which could be heard long before you ever saw them. They were also very lively performers. Some of the best, most exciting bus journeys I ever had were between Halifax and Bradford on these buses, being driven with vigour. This despite their harsh riding characteristics, thin uncomfortable seat cushions, and very basic, lightweight and ultimately rust-buckety Orion bodywork – the first two having the most unprepossessingly ugly and uncomfortable lowbridge version. Actually, these two were not as lightweight (at 7tons 5cwt) as the three highbridge ones (at 6tons 16cwts). Non-enthusiast drivers, which accounted for the majority, generally detested them – certainly they did at Halifax. However, Mark Fives were in a minority there, outnumbered by PD2’s and PD3’s. Most Halifax drivers tended to adopt a ‘Leyland Style’ of driving, and were not inclined to adapt to the different requirements of the AEC’s. Ex-Hebble drivers, previously used to little else, appeared to be more sympathetic towards them. You had to drive an AEC like an AEC. Non-enthusiast passengers riding on them probably just found them very noisy and a bit hard riding. Non-enthusiast passers by and people living nearby their routes probably found them unacceptably raucous. Certainly from a purely non-emotional, operational, engineer’s or passenger’s point of view they were often far from ideal. The previous 9.6 litre Mark Three with preselector gearbox was certainly considerably more reliable, durable, refined and easier to drive – in my opinion one of the best city buses ever. I have driven several different preserved ones in the distant past – ex-Halifax, Huddersfield, Morecambe & Heysham, Liverpool and London Transport examples – and they were all great buses, although the Halifax one was a bit noisy and had Park Royal bodywork constructed from matchsticks. Its framework creaked alarmingly and seemed to move in several directions at once, and the experience was like driving a large, rotting preselector garden shed on wheels. I believe it’s a lot better nowadays. From the late 50’s Halifax would almost certainly have been far better off with a fleet of Daimler CVG6LX’s with semi-automatic gearboxes – like neighbouring Huddersfield – especially if they could have had Roe bodies as well. Excellent, reliable, indestructible, powerful, worthy Gardner-engined chassis, yet from my experience as a enthusiastic driver (we had some ex-Leeds ones for a while), well……a bit lacking in character. Dull even, some have said. Similarly equipped Guy Arabs would have been similarly worthy, and would probably also have whistled too. Bristol FLF Lodekkas were also really sound, engineers’ buses, but we couldn’t have those. Then what was a Regent V anyway ? It came in many forms. It could be medium or heavy duty. Tin-fronted or with traditional exposed Regent III front. It could have the earlier A218 9.6 unit from the Mark Three, and the similar but larger A222 for export. AV470, AV590 or AV690 wet liner engines, A few late ones had the far superior AV691 dry liner unit (surprisingly the excellent AV505 was never offered in place of the AV470). Some even had Gardner 6LW’s and mechanical preselector boxes, and even the 5LW was offered quietly. They could have synchromesh or Monocontrol semi-automatic gearboxes. They could be 27 or 30 feet long, 34 feet for export. Right or left-hand drive. The Mark Threes and Fives were a bit ‘mix n’match’ in the 50’s, and Alan Townsin (The Oracle) stated that the only crucial distinguishing feature that determined a Mark Five from a Mark Three was the use of four inch wide front springs, instead of three and a half inches. Some combinations were quite good, others not so. There were undoubtedly ‘better’ buses, but the thing about being an bus enthusiast is that you can be as irrational and illogical as you like in your choice of favourites. You don’t have to be too concerned about reliability and all those things – just appreciate them, warts and all, just as you do with your family and friends. Great, isn’t it ?
The City of Oxford Motor Services 1956 AEC Regent V MD3RV Weymann H30/26RD
City of Oxford I think were one of AECs most loyal customers. According to my 1963 British Bus Fleets South Central book it states that as from 1927 apart from a batch of 5 Dennis Loline Mark IIs delivered in 1961 with AEC engines by the way, all their vehicles were AECs. Interestingly enough the next batch of vehicles ordered after the Lolines were AEC Bridgemasters. What I find strange, and I hope someone can explain why it was that the Bridgemaster had been available from 1956, why wait until December 1961 to take delivery of their first batch. Not to mention the fact that they took delivery of 15 lowbridge Regent Vs as well as the 5 Lolines in the 56 – 61 period. As a matter of interest they also took delivery of 30 highbridge Regent V MDs and 16 LDs in the same period of which the vehicle in the above shot is one of the first. It was chassis number 29 of the MD variant and had as can be seen an exposed radiator rather than the more recognisable concealed version more associated with the Regent V. All City of Oxford 27ft Regent Vs were MDs (Medium Weight) having the smaller AEC AV470 7.68 litre six cylinder diesel engine. But they were not quite so loyal when it came to body builders Park Royal and Weymann were the norm for the double deckers, apart from a batch of 5 Regent Vs and the Lolines that had East Lancs bodies and the first batch of front entrance Regents that had bodies by Willowbrook. I am afraid that is where my information ends but if you know something that maybe of interest to others your comments are more than welcome.
I think you’re a little unfair about loyalty with bodywork. When you buy one car or bus at a time you can be loyal to one maker. When you bulk order you have to be aware of the capacity of the supplier – which is why most large operators (even London Transport) dual sourced. At least COMS managed fidelity to AEC – with which I would fully concur – and the two bodybuilders were among the acknowledged best at their craft at the time. [Lolines were only available late in Weymann’s life but maybe they were arguing with Dennis for an AEC option when the body style and finish of the Bridgemaster was truly dreadful.] Whatever the reasons; maroon, cream and duck-egg green AECs – that is the heyday of a superb operator.
David Oldfield
P.S.Re-reading Alan Townsin’s chapter on the Bridgemaster in his “Blue Triangle”….. The original version was attractive with curved profile and aluminium body but BET were likely to be the model’s biggest customer. They wanted steel frames and single skin domes, like the MCW Orion, and a wholesale re-think had to be made. Very few of the original Crossley built Bridgemaster’s were made before it was totally retooled and production moved to Park Royal from whence came the uglier production model. This probably helps answer why COMS didn’t buy Bridgemasters before 1961 – that and being on the end of a queue which would involve PRV vehicles for other customers. The Bridgemaster was now firmly based in London and would, or could, not be sub-let to Crossley or Roe.
I don’t know who took this photograph but I know the setting is Gloucester Green Bus Station in the heart of Oxford. Oxford Bus Co’s livery was absolutely gorgeous, restrained and stately but still gorgeous!!
George Taylor
23/03/13 – 08:02
Eventually this ended up with Wallace School of Transport as a driver trainer bus – I took my PSV test on it in 1970
Brian Lamb
23/03/13 – 12:28
Coming from a Leyland/Daimler Orion bodied stronghold on my visits to Oxford with my father in the late 1950s/early 1960s I always thought this batch had a certain refined air about it. Again, coming from the a place where the Orions were coated in acres or red or green the Oxford livery was to my eye very attractive. A few words on the Bridgemaster. Alan Townsin is, of course, correct regarding the BET demands for the Bridgemaster. The original bodies were developed from a specification drawn up at Park Royal but the final design and build was by Crossley at Errwood Road using the basic outline and many of the panel sizes of the then current Park Royal design it was also building. It is interesting to see that a few of the design touches of the original were incorporated into some orders throughout the production run see: www.brindale.co.uk/ Whilst Graham Hill’s information on the site is a little suspect e.g. his contention that the Lodekker (sic) had saturated the market leading to poor Bridgemaster sales, the pictures show well the versions of the final design though, as it is a Park Royal site, omit pictures of the Crossley version shown here: www.sct61.org.uk/ I was told by an ex Crossley employee who was there to the end that the transfer of the Bridgemaster to Park Royal, which was pretty much the final nail in the coffin of Crossley, would not have been so final had there been a commercially viable demand from non BET operators who would have specified the original body, leaving Park Royal to deal with the BET revamped design. As it was, no significant interest was shown and the shut down went ahead. Regarding Oxford’s order, whilst BET companies could deviate from group policy, at the time the group was pressurising its constituents to take the Bridgemaster. With a very much AEC dominated fleet Oxford found it hard to resist unlike Ribble, North Western and other fleets which had either a Leyland dominance or a more diverse fleet.
Phil Blinkhorn
26/03/13 – 06:38
While the redesigned Bridgemaster is widely regarded as a styling disaster, it is often forgotten that some of the rear-entrance examples were nothing of the kind, as is well illustrated by the photos of the Sheffield buses on Graham Hill’s site (see Phil’s brindale link above).
Peter Williamson
30/10/16 – 06:28
Watching a 1963ish Youtube video on the Outwell and Upwell Tramway I saw a familiar sight: a 1949 City of Oxford AEC Regent III with 56-seat highbridge Weymann bodywork stopping to pick up a lady—and here’s the less familiar bit—who was standing on the railway track. The by then diesel-hauled farm-produce trains that ran along the roadside made only a handful of trips a day so using the tracks as a bus-stop posed little danger. I couldn’t make out an operator’s name, but I’m sure someone here knows!
ps. I should have said that the film is Huntley Archives no 521. OFC 383 here appears to have platform doors, which I thought were fitted by Smiths of Reading on acquisition. Could this bus have passed from Smiths to a third life on the Fens? If so, that would date the picture to about 1966-67.
Ian Thompson
30/10/16 – 14:41
I think that the Regent III is OFC 390 which was acquired by Smith (Bluebell) of March in February 1962 and was fitted with doors for them. It lasted until March 1966.
Nigel Turner
30/10/16 – 16:21
I thought that the Oxford “Country Buses” – out of town services like Kidlington – of that eras had doors from new?
