Tag: AEC

London Transport – AEC Regent III RT – JXC 194 – RT 1431

JXC 194

London Transport
1949
AEC Regent III RT
Craven H30/26R

After operational trials with the revolutionary new chassis during 1938, initially equipped with a 1932 vintage open staircase ST body, the RT prototype re-appeared in August 1939 with an advanced all metal body of very graceful appearance built by Chiswick. An order was placed for 150 of the modern double decker, which was almost immediately raised to 338, with production of 527 each year from 1940 onwards being intended, though the ultimate envisaged total is not recorded. Then came WW2 and the sudden curtailment of bus production, though the order for the first 150 was completed. These, however, had Chiswick built composite bodies, presumably to conserve metal consumption during the hostilities, and the the last example entered service in 1942. With the end of the war, the RT programme was reactivated by AEC in 1946, by which time the chassis design had undergone several improvements, notably in the engine which now had toroidal cavity pistons increasing the maximum output from 100 bhp to 125 bhp, though LT derated this to 115 bhp in the interests of economy and extended life. The jig built metal framed bodywork programme for the RT took a while to establish, and the first postwar RT chassis from 1946 went to provincial operators who equipped them with standard contemporary bodies from their own suppliers. The LT RTs began appearing from 1947 with bodywork by Park Royal and Weymann, but chassis deliveries began seriously to outpace those of the bodywork manufacturers. In 1948, anxious to update its tired pre war fleet, LT turned to other bodywork constructors, selecting Saunders-Roe and Craven to make up the deficit. The Saunders body was metal framed using the firm’s own cruciform pillar design, but the end result outwardly resembled the standard Park Royal/Weymann product very closely. Indeed, the Saunders body was held by LT engineers to be of superior constructional quality, and, although Saunders received a second order for 50, making 300 in total, the unforeseen sharp decline in bus travel from the early 1950s meant that no others were built. The 120 Craven bodies were very different, being simply that manufacturer’s standard design married up to the RT cab and bonnet. The bespoke mountings meant that these bodies were not interchangeable with other RT chassis and this entire batch had to be overhauled separately at Aldenham. They were delivered between September 1948 and April 1950, the first twenty seven being painted green for the Country Bus & Coach department, and allocated to Watford and Windsor depots. The rest were red for Central Bus operation, and their allocation was spread about in seemingly random fashion. Ironically, from 1949, the supply situation went into reverse. RT chassis production could not keep up with the increased bodywork deliveries, and London Transport embarked upon the futile and very costly course of modifying some late STL chassis to accept standard RT bodies. Thus was born the SRT class which proved to be pitifully under powered with the 7.7 engine and dangerously under braked. After a service life of about four years they were all withdrawn, the chassis being scrapped, and the bodies transferred to new RT chassis. As bus patronage declined during the 1950s LT found itself with a significant fleet surplus of vehicles, large numbers of brand new RT and RTL deliveries going straight into store. (This, however, did not deter LT from investing heavily in its new Routemaster for which, at the time, there was no operational necessity.) With large numbers of new RTs and RTLs waiting to take to the road, the non standard Craven RT fleet was earmarked for early withdrawal and most went into store during 1955/6, only for twenty red examples to be repainted green for Country Area service in March/April/May 1956. They did not last long, being withdrawn again between one and four months later, the expensive repainting exercise being yet another example of LT profligacy. At merely six to eight years old, the Craven RTs, became bargain purchases on the secondhand market, going on to serve their new owners for up to a further thirteen years, proof, indeed, that the Craven body design was entirely sound. RT 1431 was delivered to LT in May 1949 and sold out of stock on 30 April 1956 to the dealer, Bird’s of Stratford upon Avon, being very quickly bought by a member of the Ardrossan A1 Service, who ran it for ten years. Early in 1966 this bus was secured for preservation, and the picture shows it at Brighton during the 1970 HCVC Rally. The destination display has been reduced to represent the situation that prevailed in the early 1950s when linen for bus blinds was in short supply. Since 2004, RT 1431 has been a member of the Ensignbus fleet.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

06/07/21 – 05:59

I always found the flatter and less rounded sides of the Craven RTs front to be more attractive than the standard RT body, but the rear was pure Cravens, with its curved upper deck, lower window and number plate positions.
RT 1 was initially given the Christopher Dodson body of ex-City Leyland Titan TD111, dating from 1931. It then became ST1140; all very confusing!

Here are two photos of ST1140, which are quite rare

ST1140_1
ST1140_2

Chris Hebbron

07/07/21 – 05:58

I just like them as buses – but equally like the “standard” RT design. The Cravens were my favourites of the 100 9612Es delivered to Sheffield Transport between 1947 and 1950. They were among the last in 1949/50. Good looking buses with a long life. Excellent though they were, the Weymanns had a permanent scowl which detracted from their appearance. Strangely enough, the lowbridge version (eg RLHs) had a more balanced and appealing appearance – not a thing said very often of lowbridge buses.

David Paul Oldfield

25/07/21 – 07:18

I believe that fitting the old body onto the new RT1 and disguising it as ST1140 was with the intention of fooling competitors into thinking that it was just another old London type.
But as the body came from a TD class, which was filled with various acquired Leyland TD1s [and some TD2s?], I wonder how much modification was needed to make it fit? The wheelbase would surely have been different, yet the image above of ST1140 as fitted does not look out of proportion, or crude in any way. This must have been rather an expensive refit for such a short time before the modern body was fitted.

Michael Hampton

26/07/21 – 07:09

RT1_01

Good points, Michael. The Leyland TD1/TD2 was the largest class taken over from the independents by London Transport, not far short of 200. The almost new ones from 1931/33 had modern bodies by Christopher Dodson/Birch Bros. Many of the class finished up with Liverpool Corporation, painted grey and used for ferrying employees to/from sensitive sites. Incidentally, I’ve found another, poor, but mystery, photo of ST1140, posing as some sort of mobile unit, with spats on rear wheels, plus front side lights with reduced lighting area: wartime mode. Yet RT1 was in service with its new body, pre-war, in mid 1939!!

Chris Hebbron

27/07/21 – 06:37

Several interesting comments here, and thanks, Chris, for those pictures of AEC/LPTB’s ‘Q ship’, ST1140, surely devised to fool the competition (Leyland) whilst the new chassis was being tested in service. As Michael has hinted, the disguise of an old open staircase body from a TD1 might well have been decided by the wheelbase. The early Regents of the ST class had a wheelbase of 15ft. 6.5 ins, which was slightly curious because Rackham had only just left Leyland where his new TD1 Titan had been designed with a wheelbase nearly a foot longer at 16ft. 6ins. From 1932 the Regent had a wheelbase of 16ft. 3ins, but none of the later LPTB examples had such elderly looking bodywork that must surely have been deliberately chosen to camouflage the new beast. The new RT chassis – certainly not yet known as the Regent III – had a wheelbase of 16ft. 4ins, for which the old Dodson body must have been adaptable. Chris’s latest picture is a bit of a puzzle because RT1 was fitted with its new Chiswick built body in April 1939, so what is it up to in that photo? The threat of war had been hanging over Britain certainly since 1938 when huge production of war material such as Hurricanes, Spitfires and bombers was initiated, so perhaps ST1140 was used in its final days as a test bed for wartime specifications.

Roger Cox

27/07/21 – 06:39

Actually, now that all three photos are together, and comparison of the first two with the bottom one is possible, it is quite clear that the body on bottom photo is quite different, bearing all the hallmarks of a Tilling/Dodson body from an ex-Tilling ST, some of which started to be withdrawn in the immediate pre-war period. Although body sag might not have been apparent on these frail bodies in 1939, there is no trace of it, nevertheless. What’s all this about???

Chris Hebbron

29/07/21 – 06:25

Thank you Roger for your note on the wheelbase dimensions of the related chassis here. I can quite see how the two inches difference between a TD1 and the RT prototype would be quite easily dealt with in LT’s workshop without showing any obvious crudity. No doubt it was written up as a “research and development” expense, along with everything else that was involved. I had thought that there would have been a very different wheelbase dimension between a TD1 and an RT – but my assumptions have been proved wrong! I was surprised by the difference between the first Regents and the TD1, as they were more or less contemporary in design and production. That seems even more puzzling, but no doubt it’s another story to be told on another occasion.

Michael Hampton

11/08/21 – 05:45

It’s worth noting that RT1’s new Chiswick body had a seating capacity of H29/26R suggesting that it would have breeched the gross vehicle weight limit in force at that time if the standard H39/26R capacity was used.
The gross vehicle weight limit was relaxed during the war and again after the war.

Michael Elliott

17/08/21 – 06:30

I had not thought of it before, but some years ago it was pointed out to me that timber/composite rames were heavier than metal. The “Prewar” RT1-150 were of composite construction, unlike the post war bodies. It is likely that they might be heavier and that certification require fewer seats.

David Oldfield

18/08/21 – 05:52

You are probably generally right about the weight of timber frames versus metal frames. But I have a feeling that in the case of the RT family, the “pre-war” ones, [RT2-151] were actually lighter than the post-war version. I have a memory that some of the pre-war machines were kept in service for a longer period than most of the batch due to their allocation for a route over a weight-limited bridge or similar structure. The post-war ones deemed as too heavy. I cannot now remember what route it was, but think it was the outer London suburbs, north of the Thames. I assume that the offending structure was rebuilt or the route diverted when the time came to withdraw these last few pre-war RTs.

Michael Hampton

21/08/21 – 06:15

It was Country Area route 327 that used them.

Ian Mason

22/08/21 – 06:22

Yes, Ian is correct. The Hertford garage based 327 route between Nazeing and Broxbourne crossed a weak bridge over the railway. This service was one of the last strongholds of the postwar STL class until they were displaced in May 1955 by seven wartime RTs, with engineering backup from a couple of others, one in red livery, that served as trainers but still had full psv certification. The Chiswick composite constructed body of the wartime RT had an unladen weight of 6 tons 15 cwt, significantly less than the 7 tons 10 cwt of the Park Royal or Weymann bodied standard RT. When the bridge was suitably reinforced, these RTs were withdrawn in August 1957. I acknowledge Ian’s Bus Stop for padding out my memory with accurate dates.

Roger Cox

22/08/21 – 06:23

There were seven of them, RTs 36, 62, 79, 93, 114, 128 and 137, nicknamed “The Magnificent Seven!”. They were all re-painted into green and based at Hertford Garage from 1955 to 1957. Some had full blinds, even the route number box, but some had one-piece ex-STL blinds. All, bar one, lasted until 1963, some finishing as learner vehicles or as Aldenham hacks. Postwar RTs weighed in at 7.5 tons if memory serves, but the wartime ones were definitely lighter.

Chris Hebbron

25/08/21 – 05:52

FXT 303

Here’s a photo of Green RT 128, fully blinded, on route 327.

Chris Hebbron

03/10/21 – 17:23

The vehicle shown in Chris Hebbron’s picture of 26 July is not RT1 (aka ST1140) with its Dodson body. It is an early postwar 3RT chassis, 0961079, new in 1947 which was used as a training chassis for, I believe, the depot engineers.
Because chassis production at the time was outstripping body production, it was evidently decided to use a secondhand body, and the Tilling body from ST977 was fitted. The vehicle was known by its chassis number and never had a Service Vehicle number.
It lasted in this role until 1953 when the body was scrapped and the chassis emerged with a new Weymann body in 1954 as RT4761. However it was stored until 1958 and the chassis was eleven years old when it finally entered passenger service.

Basil Hancock

05/10/21 – 06:12

Thanks, Basil, for clearing up the mystery of my 26th July posting. What an extraordinary history of the chassis, taking 11 years before it finally appeared in revenue-earning service as RT4761 And a Tilling ST body fitted here without any sag!!

Chris Hebbron

06/10/21 – 06:19

RM8 took even longer, not entering passenger service until 1976 when it was 18 years old. This made it the last rear entrance and the last half-cab double decker to enter service in the UK, although it was not exactly new at the time.
And just to add to the statistics, Chiswick Experimental RT3995 only operated in passenger service for three months before becoming Chiswick’s new toy. Even Merlins and Fleetlines lasted longer than that.

LUC 154_1
LUC 154_2

Here are two photos of the former Chiswick Experimental RT3995 in service with Spencers in High Wycombe on 3 November 1969.
I am not sure who did the rear end modification, but it looks quite professional so it might have been LT themselves.

Basil Hancock

07/10/21 – 06:27

Interesting about RM8, Basil. RT3995 looks very well turned-out, but looks a little odd with that style of enclosed platform. Thx again for letting us know about these sorts of oddities, otherwise lost over the years.

Chris Hebbron

10/10/21 – 19:27

RT1431 was strutting her stuff between Dorking and Putney Heath on the 93 running day yesterday (9 October) – along with RT1 and sundry other members of the RT and RM class. RTs predominated and most of the buses were “showroom” condition – a testament to the hard work and care lavished on them by their owners. I’ve said it before but, Three cheers to the preservationists who continue to make these events possible.

David Oldfield

11/10/21 – 20:26

Wish I could’ve gone, David. Living at Morden until 1956, the 93 was our long-distance through-route, initially served exclusively by 1RT1s, but Sutton’s D’s would later put in an appearance and Merton’s STL’s and D’s would appear on the Summer Sunday extension from Morden to Dorking, when I’d persuade my mum to splash out for a ride into the country and green buses! In those days, that whole journey was in Surrey!

Chris Hebbron

Smith’s Luxury Coaches – AEC Regent III – ACP 630


Copyright Ray Soper

Smiths Luxury Coaches (Reading) Ltd
1947
AEC Regent III 
Roe H31/25R

This shot is from the Ray Soper gallery contribution titled “Smith’s Luxury Coaches of Reading” click on the title if you would like to view his Gallery and comments.
The shot is shown here for indexing purposes but please feel free to make any comment regarding this vehicle either here or on the gallery.

Rochdale Corporation – AEC Regent III – GDK 718 – 218

Rochdale Corporation
1949
AEC Regent III
Weymann H33/26R

Memories of the No. 17 from Manchester Cannon Street to Rochdale in the 50’s

Mullion

Not strictly true, not the original colour scheme of the time. Good photo though!

Ian Buckley

One of the early Rochdale Regent IIIs turned over at the junction of Broadway and Middleton Road, Chadderton on May 1st 1951 after colliding with an Oldham PD1. The Rochdale bus was returning from Manchester with a full load – 55 people were injured. For years I have been trying to identify just which two buses were involved. If you know please leave a comment.
The Rochdale Observer cutting has a picture of the bus lying on its side, photo credited to D Worrall.

Peter Greaves

I’ve seen a very good quality photo of this incident in the GMTS archives. That could be your next port if you’re hoping to further enquiries on this?
The Rochdale bus was actually lying on its nearside on Broadway just past Hunt Lane but well before Middleton Rd, and facing towards Royton. There’s no evidence in the photo that any other vehicle was involved.
It is possible that another vehicle could have come out of Hunt Lane from the right and collided with the Rochdale bus causing it to overturn, but Hunt Lane was not on an Oldham bus route.
On the left at this time you may recollect there was a large coal yard served by a railway branch off the Werneth to Middleton Junction line, and this too is visible in this photo.
I was talking very recently to a gent who says he knew a woman who had been travelling on the bus, and for a long time afterwards she still had her head bandaged. He seems to think the incident happened about 1957, but I’d certainly go with the date you have if it’s confirmed especially by a newspaper. This was a very serious accident and this gent thought there had been some fatalities?
From the photo it actually appears that the bus was one of the 8 footer Weymanns, and a friend and I always concluded that this was probably 222 as it was the only one of the batch we had never been able to spot!
Peter Gould’s Rochdale fleet list has 222 as the first of the batch to be withdrawn in 1963, but it may well have sat in the works being cannibalised for many years following the accident?
On the other hand it may have been a completely different bus, and it may have been rebuilt and returned to service, but in the photo I’ve seen it looks too badly damaged. This shot has been taken from above and behind the bus and the roof appears to have become detached from the body at the rear.
I was never able to gain access to the inner sanctum at Mellor St, but I feel sure there must be others out there able to throw more light on this incident,

Keith Jackson

Could you please tell me what colour the bus was that ran from Rochdale to Bacup in about 1969.
Thanking you

Fiona

Rochdale Corporation buses sported a very attractive Oxford Blue and cream livery applied in a streamlined style with the blue side panels on both decks ‘swooping’ down to give an all cream front. When the ‘new look’ fronted Daimler CVG6’s and AEC Regent V’s arrived in 1953 and 1956 respectively, the tin fronts were painted blue. All were bodied by Weymann. The body style was to the traditional design which pre-dated the Orion and the curvaceous lines of this body blended superbly with the Rochdale streamlined livery. In my view the Regent V’s were some of the most attractive British buses ever built.
In around 1961 Regent V 277(NDK 977) was painted in the style of livery shown above as an experiment to allow spray painting to be used to save costs. It was said the livery needed to be simplified to allow this method of painting to be adopted. The ‘Rochdale Corporation’ fleet name straddling the crest was introduced on this bus. Later in the year AEC Regal IV saloon no 12 and Daimler CVG6 238 (I think) both appeared in this style, initially with a lighter blue band. This was very quickly modified to the Oxford Blue darker standard colour.
At first these vehicles seemed well received as it was something different but it was a sad day in my view when it was announced that this livery was to adopted as standard. It took to sometime for the whole fleet to be repainted and I recall that a few of the Regent III’s were the last vehicles in the old livery.
After being a very smart fleet, Rochdale’s buses seemed to take on a care worn appearance towards the end of their independent life before being swallowed into SELNEC. The cream livery soon showed dirt on the lower panels in the industrial environment of a Lancashire mill town and one must question the wisdom of adopting such an inappropriate livery.

To answer Fiona by 1969 the Rochdale fleet had been absorbed into SELNEC and the buses operating on the 16 route to Bacup would have been in SELNEC orange and off-white but again it took some time for all vehicles to be repainted and there would have been cream and blue examples in the former Rochdale livery still about at this time.

Philip Halstead

I love the art-deco style of writing on the side of these vehicles.

Chris Hebbron

The accident Rochdale bus 222 was involved in was in the early 1960s and Peter Gould’s withdrawal date of 1963 would stack up. After the accident the bus was parked under a tarpaulin on the parking ground which RCT was temporarily using during the construction of the Mellor Street depot extension. (This site was opposite Hansons Spring Works located on the eastern side of Mellor Street and bordered by the River Spodden – on the southern side of the river where it passed under Mellor Street). I seem to recall that 222 was working service 3 along Milnrow Road somewhere between Kingsway and Witley Road.

David Slater

So 222 was involved in a completely different incident, wonder if this was also an overturning?
That on Broadway Chadderton was just before Middleton Rd, and on route 90. The photo I saw in the GMTS archives would suggest it was nearer to 1951 given the onlookers in the photo and how they were dressed.
The bus was definitely one of the postwar AEC Regent III/Weymann’s but the reason I can’t positively identify the bus here is because there isn’t that degree of definition in the photo.
As I said in the earlier posting, the bus looks badly damaged, with the roof detached from the body at the rear, but in 1951 it would still have quite new, so perhaps economic to repair? Interestingly only 222 of all the Regent IIIs was withdrawn prematurely, so the indication is that this bus was returned to service.
It was a matter of local folklore for many years that a 90 bus had overturned on Broadway, but nobody knew which fleet it was from, Oldham, Manchester or Rochdale, or the precise location of the accident, which only became known to me when I saw the archive photo.
It might be worth another look but you have to be a member of the GMTS to gain access to their archives. I no longer am, but I know a man who is. It would be interesting to be able to get to the bottom of this incident.

Keith Jackson

Another possible clue as to the identity of the overturning Regent III. As they aged some of the batch were rebuilt with rubber mounted windows mostly at the front upper deck as per the above photo.
However pics on Jasper’s link below show refurb work carried out to bus 210. This and following shot show the major work involved, as if it had been carried out by Weymann to contemporary styling being used on the Aurora body: //jasperstransportphotographs.fotopic.net/p54432950.html 

Are we getting nearer I wonder?

Keith Jackson

The refurbishments look superb – and a sight better than North Western did with 253 (a contemporary PD2 in nearby Oldham) when they refurbished it.

David Oldfield

02/03/11

I believe that the vehicle involved in the Chadderton incident was 7ft 6in Regent III No 39. Subsequently it appears to have been rebodied by Weymann before being returned to service. Its interior polished wooden cappings around the windows were then of the later, rounded, style as used on the 1949-51 Weymann bodies rather than the flat style of the rest of the 31- 48 series.

Ian Holt

Hi Ian, Many thanks for the above info. I have no reason to doubt what you’re saying re 39, but is there any absolute evidence to confirm it was this bus?
I jumped to the conclusion of it perhaps being 210 because of the extensive rebuilding that bus’ body received, and certainly from the only photo I’ve ever seen of the accident, the body does look very badly damaged, so much so that rebodying would be a distinct possibility.
I’ve been unable to ascertain the identity of the overturner try as I might. Perhaps the more comprehensive PSV Circle or Omnibus Society lists (unfortunately not in my possession) have this information?
I’ve not been able to read the Venture book on Rochdale, but maybe the info is in there? Also as Peter who initiated the topic has said, is there any evidence supporting the allegation that an Oldham PD1 was also involved in this accident?

Keith Jackson

18/04/11 – 05:00

Regarding 222, it was in a head on accident with an artic on the undulating stretch of the A58 between the road to Wardle and the road down to Smithy Bridge station and Hollingworth Lake. I believe the bus driver was killed outright and there were no passengers on it. I have some negatives on 6×9 B&W of 222 after towing to Mellor Street and before it was stripped for spares and parked on the spare land for at least a year – have a couple of negs there as well.
I’m sure the accident was sometime in 1963 and could probably be found in the Rochdale Observer archives.
A rear view of nearside shows the body substantially bent, and as not much older buses were being withdrawn then it was obviously not worth repairing.

Anon

23/04/11 – 08:24

By chance I’ve found a photo online of this accident which makes it very clear it was 39 – see
//oldhameveningchronicle.newsprints.co.uk/view/16707219/q5451_jpg
Possibly a few orders coming along for that one judging by the interest!

David Beilby

24/04/11 – 07:41

I notice that the date of the photograph of 39 is shewn as 1st January 1951.

Chris Hebbron

24/04/11 – 15:54

Note many of the photograph dates are inaccurate – that one is quite close by comparison! It’s also the convention I used on my erstwhile Fotopic gallery when all I knew was that the photo was taken in 1951.

David Beilby

04/06/11 – 06:40

David, Thanks so much for the link to the photo. New Years Day 1951 not only sounds ominous but also perhaps slightly implausible as a Public Holiday? Given that the 90 was only ever in any case a peak hour service.
Might suggest an element of driver culpability though…. ? Certainly looks a very nasty accident, and the photo in the GM Museum from the rear perspective looks even more devastating. I understand that there were fatalities.

Keith Jackson

05/06/11 – 14:14

The sequence of 5 photos here from the Oldham Chronicle website:
A very strange accident this for a number of reasons. To have ended up on its nearside in the position the bus lies could suggest it went into a skid to the offside, and reasoning might suggest it would have tipped to the offside and turned over instead onto that side?
What is evident from a couple of the photos is that bus overturned a distance before it came to rest given the marks along the carriageway?
Also its positioning before the junction indicates there was no jumping of the lights, although heavy braking in less than ideal road conditions could have been contributory?
In one of the photos there is just visible the rear corner of an Oldham Roe bodied bus…. Perhaps this was after all involved, and been moved away to help aid recovery of the Rochdale bus?
In the case of Oldham PD3 108 overturning onto its nearside, that was much easier to explain, as it was hit at the front nearside by a tanker lorry, which then caused it to spin tipping to the nearside.
The saga of Rochdale 39 still has much to it which is unknown.

Keith Jackson

07/06/11 – 09:26

A grim but fascinating set of pictures which leave as many questions as they solve. Going by the way in which the roof of the bus has been torn off “upwards” and the front section show heavy wrinkling to confirm that, the direction the vehicle took before coming to rest must have been sliding on it’s nearside and indeed the nsf mudguard is distorted to confirm. Then looking at the pattern of the fluids draining from it, it would seem the bus was travelling downhill prior to the accident.
Now looking at the first picture, the just visible second bus is facing away so had it just turned right and No.39 came to grief behind it? Purely as a theory, could 39 becoming downhill maybe quite fast, saw the bus in front stopped waiting to turn right, panic braked, skidded, tried to correct but instead toppled onto the nearside and slide downhill to rest but turned through say 300 degrees as it did so?
The injuries must have been dreadful and no doubt there are people alive with family memories. Maybe a letter to the local newspaper may bring some accurate clues or information.

Richard Leaman

Hi Richard,
Some interesting observations. Your thoughts are the most logical. There is a possible red herring, in that the overturned bus shows Rochdale on the blinds, implying it was heading from Manchester and overturned in its direction of travel just before the junction.
Yet the positioning of the overturned bus, the Oldham bus, evident liquid spillage in the junction beyond (from Photo 1 – despite the copyright text), and as you say, apparent evidence of the roadway marks from the tyres and front wing of the overturning bus suggest otherwise.
The assumption it was travelling from Manchester would be an easy one to make, even if this came from contemporary reporting. However having looked at the accident from numerous aspects, my reasoning goes:
I now think that the bus was travelling from the opposite direction as you say, towards Manchester in fact. The 90 route was a non-stopper between Royton and Manchester, and as there would be no more boarders, the crew may have already set the blinds for the return trip. This was not unknown in the days I remember the 90.
I initially thought it unlikely the Regent had been broadsided by the Oldham bus crossing the junction either straight across Middleton Rd or turning right into it from Broadway, because it appears to have come to rest before the junction, and I assumed the evident carriageway scuffing implied it had overturned prior to it.
Whereas apparent evidence now seems to have it heading the other way, and in fact overturning beyond the junction. Its otherwise nigh on impossible to explain. I have some alternative theories but they are weak ones.
For the Regent to land on its nearside is also hard to explain other than by it being broadsided from the offside. If it was after all heading towards Rochdale, to land how it has done suggests it would have skidded to the offside and this would have induced offside tilting instead. The nature of the roof damage sustained would also be hard to explain, given drag rather than compression? This also seems to indicate a high speed overturning.
There is a further photo in the GM Museum archives which looks to have been taken from the bedroom window of the house overlooking from the rear of the bus. There is a big offside dent on the Regent on the lower panels just behind the drivers cab. This is pretty compelling evidence it was broadsided.
Other important considerations. Accident was said to have happened on 1st of May 1951, newspaper evidence seems to support this. This was a Tuesday. Route 90 operated in the morning and evening peaks only on Mondays to Fridays. It is said there were 55 injured on the bus, so a full bus. By far the predominant flow of passenger traffic was from Rochdale towards Manchester in the morning peak,reversed in the evening peak. My dad was a regular user of the route.
I don’t know if there is any conclusions to be drawn from the school children present amongst the onlookers?
I’m still intrigued to find out more about this accident, though fear I may be at the point of starting to bore readers with the ongoing saga! I’d welcome anyone with an interest to contact me ask Peter for my email address Next stop Oldham Chronicle and Rochdale Observer news archives.

Keith Jackson

10/06/11 – 09:47

Keith, far from being bored, I always relish a mystery like this, and I suspect other readers do too. Those who don’t can always ignore it! Please don’t deprive us of further reasoning by making it a private affair – Hercule Poirot would be proud of you!

Stephen Ford

02/07/11 – 07:07

I’m sure it has already been tried, but has anyone contacted the Police? Chadderton at the time was under the Lancashire Constabulary and not GMP as now. There must be information stored somewhere on this accident?

TonyC

02/07/11 – 11:55

Hi Tony, You’re absolutely right, that was to be my next port of call, having drawn a total blank so far with the Oldham Chronicle. Even were it is possible to produce an archived news article that could be erroneous for some of the circumstances outlined above.
I’ll try both Lancs and GMP, but am wondering whether Chadderton actually came under Oldham’s rather than Lancashire’s Constabulary at the time?
One observation Richard makes is that where 39 is lying, it looks as if fluids could be draining from it, but the slight downhill slope here and the one prevailing at the junction, is into the far distance of the photo. Still suggesting that it was heading towards Manchester and that on overturning its spun through over 90 degrees to suggest it might have been travelling in the opposite direction.
A broadside from a right turning bus on the junction seems ever more the likely outcome?

Keith Jackson

02/07/11 – 16:21

I’d’ve thought the best place for information on the accident would be the County Records Office (sometimes known as County Archives).

Chris Hebbron

03/07/11 – 05:52

It was definitely Lancashire Constabulary. Oldham was an independent Borough Force at the time. It (Oldham) only went into Lancashire Constabulary in April 1969, along with many of the old Borough Forces in the County. They then became part of Greater Manchester Police in 1974 (I think that was the date) I know this for fact. I was in the old Rochdale Borough Force at amalgamation in 1969!

TonyC

11/07/11 – 13:56

Good Lord Tony! My brother was also a serving officer at Rochdale, but by then under GMP.

Keith Jackson

12/07/11 – 14:00

I never served with GMP. I left in July 1969 and transferred to Sussex Police. The only ‘JACKSON’ I knew was a Pete Jackson who lived Smallbridge way but that was in the ‘dying days’ of the old Rochdale Borough Force.
Whilst I am typing this, does anyone have any old photos of the Rochdale buses in the old (mainly blue) livery? How I wish that camera capabilities today were available then!!

TonyC

30/07/11 – 07:54

Hi Tony, brother was Tony Jackson, served at Collyhurst, Rochdale and finally Milnrow. All under GMP.
Anyhow further info just come to light concerning 39 and the overturning incident. Seems I’ve been making various assumptions that have turned out to be incorrect, e.g. placing the bus on the wrong side of the junction for a start.
More to follow shortly, with a link to another photo of the incident which has helped to explain quite a few things.

Keith Jackson

Re Rochdale 39 and its overturning. Thanks are due in no small way to both John Holmes and Fr Norman Price in helping to unravel the details of this accident.
Fr Norman’s website “Delta 64″ links to a further photo here:

Keith Jackson

21/08/11 – 16:28

Unfortunately, I’ve trawled the site and can’t find any connected pictures?? Any ‘clues’?

TonyC

22/08/11 – 11:32

Here it is Tony. In case (as I just did) you get directed to the homepage, the pic is on page 49. Once there you need to scroll down the page.
//www.fireflash-delta64.co.uk/cca49.html

Keith Jackson

23/08/11 – 09:43

Thanks Keith. Excellent picture too!

TonyC

23/08/11 – 09:45

Keith Thank you for linking the picture which is interesting. I really have never been to the area so have no clear idea of the road layout or directions but, this later picture does show an impact on the offside although I would have thought not so heavy as to be enough to cause the severity of the resulting accident. So, maybe the driver of 39 did indeed make a big swerve or avoiding action and the fully laden bus just fell under the influence of the overall weight/balance.
However…all of the crowd “interest” is on 39 yet, in none of the pictures is there any sign of the other bus. Surely if it had broadsided 39, the front/cab would be badly damaged and hardly likely to have continued around the corner and parked up neatly. Why is it not visible in the latest picture when logically it would be somewhere in the middle of the road and heavily damaged as well?
So now we need a drawing of the junction, the directions, an idea of gradient and some detail or picture of the second vehicle. That might well be a problem though!

Richard Leaman

23/08/11 – 14:16

I agree, Richard. Having now looked more closely at the picture, there is little or no damage to the offside apart from the ‘popping out of windows’ which is to be expected. If the driver swerved violently to his right, wouldn’t that cause momentum to make the bus unstable and fall to its left? If that is the case, then one would think the vehicle or whatever causing the vehicle to swerve violently right came from the left of 39. As the No 90 Route didn’t deviate from Broadway (into Chadderton) then this ‘offending’ vehicle came from the direction of Chadderton causing the driver of 39 to swerve to the right with subsequent overturn to the left. I think it is fair to accept that 39 was ‘Manchester’ bound? Any comments?

TonyC

24/08/11 – 08:11

Having looked at all the picture links, I wonder if the sequence of events was something like this : Oldham Corp heading SW along Broadway waiting to turn right into Middleton Road. RC 39 following down Broadway heading to Manchester. Then either Oldham starts to turn, but brakes suddenly for bike or similar cutting across his bows. RC 39 closing rapidly has no option but to head into the insufficient gap on nearside (with nearside wheels well into the gutter), whereupon offside just ahead of rear wheel connects with rear nearside corner of Oldham. Alternatively, RC 39 may have been passing tight on nearside of Oldham Corp, assuming it would remain stationary. Instead it turned sharply at the crucial moment, causing the pivot of the nearside rear overhang to close the gap (3 or 4 inches?) as it did so. This would explain the damage just ahead of the rear offside wheel, and also why the slightly visible Oldham vehicle is parked with its rear towards the incident, rather than the front as one expect if it had driven broadside into RC 39.

Stephen Ford

24/08/11 – 08:13

TonyC. I’ve had a look at Google Earth Street View to see what the junction looks like now. As anyone local will know, completely different! Now a big multi lane junction, it does confirm that the site is near enough flat so whilst the old pictures appear to show sloping ground, it must have been only slight.
My theory then is this..39 is crossing the junction and is hit fairly gently on the offside by another vehicle coming from the right. Driver 39 reacts by swerving right causing the bus to sway left and topple on to it’s near side. The damage in the pictures gives a misleading impression. The roof must have been pulled back to get the passengers out as all are cleared from the scene before the pictures were taken. These days, Police and Rescue forces would have cleared the onlookers away long ago but in 1951 things were different so the crowd is just concerned/excited onlookers.
What that does NOT explain though is as above, where is the other bus??? I doubt we shall ever know.

Richard Leaman

24/08/11 – 08:23

Apologies gents, but I thought I’d already posted the following info, along with the proper link to the photo, but it seems that might have become corrupted? Anyhow further info for which I thank John Holmes:
Rochdale 39 was working the 5.55pm 90 service ex Manchester (Stevenson Sq) on Tuesday 1st May 1951. It is fairly certain that it jumped the lights at the Middleton Road/Broadway junction and was struck by Oldham PD1/Roe no. 230 crossing en route to Mills Hill on the 3 route. There was only 1 injury reported on the Oldham bus which could have been the driver.
This appears to have been a high speed collision the impact from which I reckon would easily have been sufficient to turn 39 over. Imagine the forces involved in two 7 ton buses both travelling at say 25mph where one (Oldham 230) impacts on the rear offside of the other (39), surely causing it to spin and overturn?
To recap, link below to the sequence of photos from the Oldham Chronicle website, the first of which shows the rear of an Oldham Roe bodied bus: at this link
The driver of Rochdale 39 was William Chadwick of Albert St, Whitworth, and the Conductor was James Halstead (aged 22), of Market St, Shawforth. 1st May 1951 was also Mr J.C.Franklin’s first day as the new General Manager at Rochdale, having succeeded C.T.Humpidge.
John adds that Oldham 230 was working the 6.06pm journey from Oldham Market Place to Mills Hill. The driver was believed to be Billy Fish.
The bus in front was working a special from Platts works on Featherstall Rd (dep.6.06pm), also on the 3 service to Mills Hill, and this had just cleared the lights at Broadway/Middleton Road, and stopped at the Chadderton Cemetery gates, when the accident happened.
The driver of this bus, Tommy Trigg (later Inspector) saw the accident in his mirror and ran back to help. What he found at the scene must have been pretty traumatic, with 55 passengers trapped inside 39, lying on its side.
As I may have written in an earlier posting, Rochdale 39 was rebodied in virtually identical style, and re-entered service enjoying an uneventful life thereafter until withdrawal in 1965. I very likely rode on it on short workings of the 9c from Rochdale to Thornham, being totally unaware of its sinister past.

Keith Jackson

24/08/11 – 11:45

Chaceley Humpidge- a name to conjure with: he was later at Bradford and then Sheffield: I assume the cream and blue at Sheffield was not brought with him from Rochdale- I think it predated him: and then the pale blue in Bradford: he worked with some pretty good liveries! We haven’t considered the General Managers on this site, but they must have made some influential decisions, especially in the golden years of the 50’s and 60’s.

Joe

24/08/11 – 15:56

Thanks, Keith, for the full explanation. As you say, it must have been a fairly traumatic scene. There was mention in a previous post of fatalities on No 39 but no mention in your ‘report’. Now, what’s the next one to investigate? !

TonyC

24/08/11 – 15:57

Fantastic Keith, you should be known as Keith Poirot!
Joe, what about the Directors of Barton Transport for there ingenuity etc.

Roger Broughton

24/08/11 – 20:52

Barton Transport…not sure. Long ago, I used to ride the Nottingham-Leicester service occasionally. I always thought that they had stuck bits of an American diner on the buses to make them look “modern” but realise now that they were probably Duple bodies! Once you got going along the A46, things settled into a steady barking from the exhaust, as if someone had souped up some ancient rig or perhaps just modified the silencer to make them seem faster. What were these double-deckers- were they really anything special, or a bit mutton/lamb?

Joe

28/12/11 – 18:21

Someone asking which A.E.C. Regent was it that overturned on the 90 route, it was fleet No. 39 a 7’6″ Weyman bodied bus Reg. No, GDK 139
Also bus No.222, this was involved in a head-on collision on the No.3 route to Littleborough on a workers extra early one morning in either 1963 or 64.
The collision occurred in the dip Smallbridge just before Tithe Barn Close, it collided with a lorry carrying Exide Battery casings heading towards Rochdale. The driver of the lorry was decapitated and the driver of No 222 was trapped in his cab for some period of time. My memory of this is a bit hazy now but I think the H.G.V. driver was the only fatality.
No.222 was dragged to the temporary bus park which was in use at this time on Mellor St. due to the rebuilding of the running shed and here it lay as the chassis was substantially twisted on the O/S front. The vehicle eventually being towed away for scrap.

Douglas Neal

29/08/12 – 07:40

I’ve enjoyed reading these very thorough reports and observations and now I’ve seen the pictures, I’d like to ask a few questions. Wasn’t Broadway in 1951 four lanes and de-restricted? Also
1) The visibility at this junction was always good, so how did the driver of the 3 not see the 90 on his left?
2) The 3 is actually on the level but the 90 is climbing a gentle gradient but this makes me think that the 90 was going much faster than 25mph.

Mike Franks

29/08/12 – 07:56

Just to add to the above information, I was the conductress on the 222 on the day of the accident. The bus was traveling to Littleborough via Halifax Road. We were advised to travel out of service due to the weather conditions. So at that time there had been only myself and the driver on board. It was 1963 January or February and the snow was thick. As I recall an articulated lorry came over the brow outside the Greengate public house on the wrong side of the road and hit us head on. I am aware the driver of the lorry died at the scene. My driver was badly injured and I was knocked unconscious for a period of time. The bus had tilted to a dangerous position and was propped either by a emergency vehicle or other vehicle.

Elaine O’Reilly

29/08/12 – 10:24

Just a slight digression Elaine, on a far less distressing theme, but I daresay if you were a conductress in perhaps 1960 onwards you will also recall working on numbers 201 – 205. These five lovely vehicles came over the Pennines to join the Samuel Ledgard fleet at Otley, Leeds and Bradford depots and I worked on them all, but 201 mainly, and they were classic machines indeed.

Chris Youhill

25/01/14 – 08:07

I conducted then drove for Rochdale Corporation from 1965 until the SELNEC takeover then onto December 1973 with SELNEC. I conducted on all the Regent IIIs that were still in service including the last of the 7′ 6″ wide batch. My main memory of these narrow buses was that they had a deep recess on the platform where the conductor could stand out of the way of boarding and alighting passengers. The wider 8′ 00″ types didn’t have this recess and not infrequently I got my toes trodden on, including once by a large gentleman who had a false leg (needless to say that was the one on my toes).
When I got to driving the Regents, only 221 of the GDK batch remained in service but all the 223-232 series, HDK23-32 were still working. I passed my PSV on 230 and this type were and still are my all-time favourites. Very pleasant to drive, with light steering and good acceleration and pre-selector gears. Happy memories of great buses.

Paul G

26/01/14 – 17:23

Talking of bus accidents of yore my grandfather was killed by a bus in January 1940 at Factory End, Summit, Littleborough when a tyre of a bus burst and it ran into him and also a schoolboy who was there also at the tragic scene. I am into family history and my grandfathers name was Thomas Dawson who worked on the railways. Would it be possible to find out more about the accident and also what bus it was.

Andrew Wylie

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

25/12/20 – 06:37

re. Andrew Wylie’s comment of 26/01/14 – 17:23

As nobody has answered this, may I add the following: The accident occurred about 4.50pm on Thursday 11th January 1940; it was growing dark; the bus was a Rochdale Corporation bus; it was travelling from Summit to Littleborough; the nearside front tyre burst; the driver apparently losing control of the vehicle, which mounted the pavement. Thomas Dawson (57) died along with Geoffrey Cryer (11) and Hillary Hudson (12) died in Rochdale Infirmary later of injuries sustained. (These details from Rochdale Observer Saturday 13th January 1940). An inquest was held on Monday 15th January 1940 at Birch Hill Hospital, in which the County Coroner exonerated the driver. Dawson’s widow was quoted as saying “I think you ought to know this: I do not blame the driver in any way.” (The two reports are on the British Newspaper Archive in the Rochdale Observer for Saturday 13th and Wednesday 17th January 1940). Mike Baron

Leigh Corporation – AEC Regent III – NTE 382 – 41

NTE 382_lr

Leigh Corporation
1953
AEC Regent III
East Lancs L27/26R

As this bus has a lowbridge body the upper deck would have a side isle and 6 rows of 4 seats and a 3 seat row at the rear with lots of “mind your head” signs. It looks older than 1952 I think that may have something to do with the painted radiator. In 1969 this bus was transferred to SELNEC with a fleet no of 6941.

I used to go to school on these Leigh Corporation buses – no picture I have seen does justice to the immaculate paint job, nice site for memories.

Robert Hatton

My thanks for the following information to anonymous, I’m not surprised when you read what he used to get up to.

I also remember going to school on these lovely old buses. I have tried describing this type of bus with the long bench seats upstairs to my friends in the south of England where I now live, but nobody recognised the design. I never realised it was because the bus had a “low bridge body” you learn something every day.

Finally I must recall a somewhat disgusting trick we youngsters had of wetting (licking!) our paper bus ticket and sticking it on the roof of the bus when you peeled it off at the end of your journey you left a lovely transfer print of your ticket, which remained till the bus was re-painted!

Anonymous

That is an interesting shot in Leigh bus station,the bus is passing the number 1 bus route stand (Plank Lane) but the destination blind reads Astley which was the number two route immediately behind so the bus would be pulling away in the picture, both stands being at the rear of the Woolpack pub (Run by my Aunty Annie) and across from Kingstreet Methodist church visible in the background.
I was one of those kids who used to undo every screw I sat next to by half a turn with my penknife and wind the destination blind to a new destination, as I remember the front one was changed via a drop down flap from the upstairs saloon.

Seemed great fun back then.

Berni Baxter

09/03/11 – 18:06

As a Leigh lad, born in 1953, I have ridden on many of the corporation’s buses and pulled many of the ‘stunts’ referred to by others. A favourite trick with the open rear entrances was to alight from the moving vehicle as it turned from King Street into the bus station.
My most regular ride in the mid/late sixties was the number 6 service to Higher Folds, alighting at Green Lane to walk the last few hundred yards to school. This was a regular turn for the Renowns which gave a very comfortable ride on their ‘air suspension’. Occasionally a Dennis Loline would deputise and while the ride was a little more firm, they still surpassed the older buses.
One of my lifelong friends has driven the preserved Renown on a number of occasions about 25 years ago. He said it was good, alas, it is now necessary to have a PCV licence!

Phil Meadows

10/03/11 – 07:38

I spent a year at Padgate College doing my PGCE teacher training. I was a regular user of the Renowns on the Warrington – Leigh services.

David Oldfield

10/03/11 – 07:39

Further to my last post, there is another ‘Corporation’ bus which has been privately preserved. It is a Lydney bodied Leyland PD2/1., fleet number 16, registration number KTD 768. I think it is currently housed in the St. Helens Transport Museum.
Also, in 2006, The Leyland Society Ltd. has published ‘The Leyland Buses Of Leigh Corporation’ in its ‘Leyland Fleet Series’. It also covers the non-Leylands. I think they still have copies available.

Phil Meadows

07/02/12 – 06:57

Its great to see these pictures of Leigh buses. My father who sadly died when I was young was a conductor for Leigh in the late 60s early 70s, and I remember going to see him on the Hindley Green bus where it turned round at Thomas st / Leigh Rd.
I can just remember him hanging his ticket machine up at home and being given some nearly used up rolls to play with.
I started Looking for a machine some years ago as a reminder and now buy & sell and have a collection of over 120 machines and punches including 9 Leigh. Also Leigh destination blind, badge, rule book, and route/fare book. I would like to here from anyone who had connections with Leigh corporation.

Anon

16/09/12 – 06:56

The bus shown was one of a batch of six with East Lancs Bodies new in 1952 so was 17 years old in 1969 at the time of the SELNEC North takeover. I too went to school on LCT buses but left for Manchester uni. with 10 others in 1953.
Though now long gone LCT is remembered as a go ahead operator. Many post war buses only ran in Leigh for around 10 years but these AEC’s and the Lydney bodied Leylands notably fleet number 16 now preserved did far better.

Frank Taylor

29/04/13 – 08:05

Re lowbridge buses and tickets ; as schoolboys on RLH’s in London a damp ceiling and a ticket that was clearly marked NOT TRANSFERABLE was too much to resist.
It was surprisingly transferable, though of course , back to front.

Roger Ingle

Leeds City Transport – AEC Regent III – TNW 757 – 757

Leeds City Transport AEC Regent III

Leeds City Transport
1954
AEC Regent III
MCW H33/25R

Photo taken Leeds city bus station information from my now found official fleet lists my Leeds one is dated May 1964.

“TNW 757 entered service 1st December 1954. It was withdrawn 29th October 1970.
The batch 755- 759 were all then sold to Telefilm Transport Ltd in November 1970 but immediately passed on to Pickersgill & Lavery at Barnsley for scrap”

Terry Malloy

TNW 759 of this batch of five buses (755 – 759) was fitted with an experimental “self locking” fluid flywheel ” a vicious device which made it very difficult to give a decent ride even for those of us who could be bothered to try ” many couldn’t. This mechanical pest earned 759 the nickname of “Leaping Lena” – a title which was confirmed by a very prominent piece of “BIRO GRAFFITI” above the windscreen.

Chris Youhill

Bring back the old two shades of green livery.

Anonymous

Here here Anonymous – I couldn’t agree more strongly – AND some windows which can be seen through instead of passengers having to look at the back of zany and largely ineffective advertising !! The last time that passengers were obliged to tolerate “horse box” gloom like this was in the London Blitz of WW2 when London Transport were obliged to board up shattered windows to keep the vehicles in service.

Chris Youhill

You can have your two shades of green if we can have our various applications of blue and cream in Sheffield and Rotherham – and proper green in my current neck of Surrey!

David Oldfield

Its a deal David !!   There was no more handsome sight in Leeds Bus station than the Sheffield vehicles in cream and blue on service 67, especially sometimes the rare ECW bodied examples. As far as lovely leafy Surrey is concerned I just have to say “Bring back the immortal Godstone STLs.” Quite irrelevant I admit, but my first ever car was a 1934 Standard 9 – £25 “0n the road” – which was registered in Surrey – BPE 405 and affectionately nicknamed “Beepy” for obvious reasons.
I shall now be missing for a few days as I’m having my right eye cataract removed tomorrow, and if its as excellent as the left one in February I shall be grateful and delighted.

Chris Youhill

The first Orions I ever saw were on Aldershot & District’s 1954 Dennis Lances, and at the time I thought they looked cheap and homemade, with only the nice two-tone green livery to redeem them. The Leeds Regent IIIs again prove that two greens (though very different from A&D’s) can bring a metal box to life.
SUK 3, the ex-Wolverhampton Guy Arab IV at Wythall, proves again what a fine livery can do for an Orion, which I think looks its worst in BET overall red.
For a design whose hideous incompetence shines triumphantly through any livery, I’ll go for those front-entrance Park Royal Southampton and Swindon deckers of the 1960s.
Apparently the A&D Orions were about a ton lighter than their handsome East Lancs brethren, something for which the pre-war Gardner 5LWs they inherited must have been very grateful, and Tim Stubbs tells me that the Orion batch had to be sent back to Dennises to have the springs softened to cope with the unexpected lightness!

Ian Thompson

29/10/14 – 17:24

Hi after looking through your Pages of old AEC Buses! with great memories. Can you tell me any information about the bus that I used to travel home from school on in the early 1950s in Leeds, it was on the no 42 route traveling from Harehills to Lower Wortley traveling past Harehills County Secondary School. The bus had fleet no 700, the seats on this bus were not straight backed, each seat seat bent in the middle.

David Hill

30/10/14 – 07:11

Ian Thompson makes his always informed comment about this characteristic in respect of the 1954 Dennis Lance K4s of Aldershot & District, the first 20 of which carried sturdy East Lancs bodies, but the final 12 had Weymann Orion ‘tin cans'(though these were better finished than the norm). Dennis had to reset the springing to improve the ride. I doubt that many operators went to that trouble.

Roger Cox

30/10/14 – 07:12

David, if you look at the comments on Sheffield Leyland PD2 fleet number 391 on these pages you will find references to cranked seats and Leeds 700.

Ian Wild

30/10/14 – 07:12

MCW body with Roe staircase, by the look of it.

Ian T

31/10/14 – 16:27

David 700 was a one off AEC Regent II exhibited at the 1950 Earls Court Show. As Ian mentions its seats were an effort to give greater comfort to the traveling public it remained unique in the Leeds fleet.

Chris Hough

18/01/18 – 09:05

Lovely trip down memory lane on an LCT bus. In the 60’s I was a school kid living in Halton. The trudge up Halton Hill was always a struggle, especially if the bus was full when it became a first gear thrash that used to take forever. Would these double-deckers with rear landings have been Leyland Titans and AEC Regents?

Chris Bradley

Liverpool City Transport – AEC Regent III – JKF 933 – A690

Liverpool Corporation - AEC Regent III - JKF 933 - A690

Liverpool City Transport
1950
AEC Regent III
Weymann H??R

This bus is pre 1951 because all buses in the Liverpool fleet after that date were 8ft wide and had two side by side destination boards with route numbers above a quick link here to view an example. The bodies were supplied from Weymann as frame only they were then finished by Liverpool Corporation in their own body shops.

When new, this bus DID have 2 cream bands, one below the upper windows and the other above the lower windows – most were repainted in the early 60s as above.

Anonymous

I remember these as being quite fast and manoeuvrable, with their pre-selector gearboxes and distinctive sound. Two particular memories – one, hearing and seeing them thundering along the Strand and Goree on the heavily trafficked 1 route between Dingle and Seaforth (the bus route which effectively replaced the overhead railway) and two, being upstairs on the peak workings of the 71 between Penny Lane and I think South Castle Street, upper deck thick with tobacco fug and not a seat to spare. On full return journeys buses were able to avoid the congested city centre and skirt up the hill past the cathedral non-stop,

Anonymous

04/05/12 – 08:52

I remember driving one on a road that was VERY BENDY and went through Woolton Golf course and it was far easier than the usual AEC MK Vs we usually used. It took the bend’s beautifully.

Dave

10/10/13 – 15:51

I worked at Walton garage as a conductor and driver and I have fond memories of the number 1 route Seaforth to Dingle with a full bus of Dockers on board going to work at various docks along the Liverpool waterfront

Billy

17/04/15 – 07:04

One thing I never could understand was how the pre-selector gearbox worked…can anyone post a simple, not too technical explanation?

Mr Anon (lpl)

18/04/15 – 07:30

Here is a link to a detailed explanation.

Peter

19/04/15 – 07:31

Not many folk realise that something that many of were familiar with, when we were young, was an epicyclic gearbox; namely the Sturmey-Archer bicycle rear wheel hub, a compact gem of genius, IMHO.

Chris Hebbron

19/04/15 – 07:31

One thing that needs to be added to the article in Peter’s link is that on postwar AECs the change speed pedal operated by compressed air rather than a spring.

Peter Williamson

19/04/15 – 11:52

Guy also offered the Arab III with an air operated preselector gearbox.

Roger Cox

20/04/15 – 07:13

As usual I’m late to the party, but I thought I might as well jump on the (pre-selector) bus anyway. In previous threads contributors have written about the Daimler quadrant pre-selector selector. I’ve been puzzled as to how that worked, as opposed to a conventional selector gate, but never thought to ask . . . anybody out there care to enlighten me?
Sturmey-Archer gears = Raleigh Chopper! Pennant on the back? Tassels from the handlebars?? Playing card clothes-pegged to the rear fork to give that “motorcycle” sound??? Not me! – too sophisticated (me, not the Chopper kids) – 15sp Derailleur for me (even if I only ever used about five). But I remember the arguments in the playground as to whether one should pedal/stop pedalling/back-pedal when changing Sturmey-Archers . . . did it matter?

Philip Rushworth

21/04/15 – 06:27

To the best of my memory, the quadrant went RN1234, from nearest the driver outwards. At least LT’s CWA/CWD’s did.

Chris Hebbron

21/04/2015 06:28:26

Philip, the quadrant selector simply moved in a continuous arc as may be seen in this picture:- www.flickr.com/photos/superkevs/
One had to be careful to set the lever accurately in preselecting the next gear, or the pedal would spring back with some vehemence. The gate type selector used by AEC on the Regent III was much more positive. Earlier AEC and some Guy preselectors used a selector that looked like a conventional gear lever. Take a look at this page:- www.flickr.com/photos/preselector
Sturmey Archer bicycle gears – yes, you should stop pedalling when changing gear. The engagement of each epicycle gear is made by means of a rod (equivalent to the band brake on a bus gearbox) that locks each gear through the spindle. Keep pedalling, and you will chew it up and burr the matching gear internals to bits.

Roger Cox

21/04/15 – 09:44

Did the position of the Daimler gear-change vary even on the same model? My memory of the Portsmouth Daimler CWA6’s was of the gear select on the left side. The first link supplied by Roger shows it at the right side. As delivered, both the Portsmouth ones, and the Douglas one in the link would have been “identical”, of the CWA6 variant, and with Duple bodies. (The Portsmouth ones were rebodied in 1955 by Crossley, and appear elsewhere on this site). Perhaps my memory is incorrect, any comments welcome.

Michael Hampton

22/04/15 – 07:30

Roger, thanks for the informative post – exploring the links has filled up time why my class completed a mock examination.

Philip Rushworth

22/04/15 – 07:30

On Portsmouth’s rebuilt-bodied CWA6’s, the quadrant was definitely on the R/H side, Michael H. Never looked inside the cab of them in their original form.

Chris Hebbron

22/04/15 – 07:31

Wonderful picture Roger, (& Kev) of the cab of a Daimler CV/CW! I don’t think the CV was any less primitive. Would suit someone with strong arms and small feet. Good through-flow ventilation, too. Daimler (and others) never felt the need to promote their vehicles once sold- the fluted (often painted) radiator and a couple of D bosses on the front wheels (possibly?) were the only indicators. Leyland seemed to encourage you to put your own badge on the radiator, too. That all changed with the bustle buses with huge flutes, Atlas et al, although Leyland had rarely anything to put on the front of an Atlantean, unlike the St Helens front. Enough rambling: I think the quadrant was on the right on a CV?

Joe

23/04/15 – 07:02

Thanks Chris H for confirming the quadrant position. Clearly my memory is playing tricks! I only remember these in their rebodied form, even though I lived in the area when they were in original condition.

Michael Hampton

23/04/15 – 07:03

Manchester’s and Derby’s CAVs were certainly on the right Hand side. I have never driven nor seen one with it on the left.
Because the settings used to wear, the gear was never where the mark was on the quadrant, so Drivers used to put pencil marks on it. There were that many marks on them, you still never knew where it was.
You then used to put your own Mark on adding to the confusion.
I loved driving pre-select buses, they also made you read the road, having the correct gear selected was important to keep up steady and speedy progress.
BUT watch out for the pedal kicking back, it did hurt, OUCH.

Stephen Howarth

23/04/15 – 08:32

Roger wrote :-
“One had to be careful to set the lever accurately in preselecting the next gear, or the pedal would spring back with some vehemence.”
Roger, that’s definitely the finest and most eloquent description of the dangerous fault exhibited by the spring operated gearboxes that I’ve ever heard. the problem was, of course, even worse as not only did the pedal spring back with the vehemence mentioned but also came considerably further out than was the norm, which is how the pain and often injury occurred.
Incidentally it was also necessary to raise a button to allow the quadrant lever to travel beyond neutral to select reverse. A further pitfall for fresh or inattentive drivers was to set off with gusto in first gear and to fail to preselect second gear – then a little later when correctly allowing the engine revs to die down before letting the pedal out you were likely to find the passengers and conductor trying to join you in the cab – the violent braking effect thus achieved would have given a very favourable reading on the Tapley Meter brake tests !!

Chris Youhill

24/04/15 – 06:25

Chris Y, we have obviously both suffered the less than tender mercies of the spring operated preselector when not treated precisely in accordance with ‘the book’. One could always pick out the casualties by their progress round the depot in their accurate impressions of Laurence Olivier in the role of Richard III. The pedal would come back twice as far as normal with the force of all the springs in the box (or so it seemed) generally thrusting one’s left knee into violent contact with the steering column. I wonder how modern companies would get on with such a gearbox in this age of compensation culture and ambulance chasing litigators. Your vivid description of the outcome of a lapse of memory in not preselecting the next upward gear is something that I must put my hand up to having enacted occasionally. The ensuing ‘g’ forces restored one’s concentration at lightening speed, so that one shoved and held the gear pedal down instantly. Ah, happy, joyous days. The modern crop of bus steering wheel attendants don’t know what a gearbox is.

Roger Cox

24/04/15 – 06:26

You have conjured up a wonderful image of said passengers and conductor crammed into the cab with the driver Chris! Very descriptive, and it made me chuckle. I’m sure I read somewhere in the distant past, that the height of the gearchange pedal on some buses with spring-operated preselector gearboxes varied, dependent on which gear the vehicle was in. Is this correct, or is it, to quote Hylda Baker “a figleaf of my imagination?”

Brendan Smith

24/04/15 – 08:47

Brendan Smith you are correct in thinking that the ‘Change speed pedal’ (sometimes referred to as ‘The Tripper pedal’), was at different heights depending on which gear it was in. Lowest being neutral, and highest being top, in normal driving.
Not only was your knee jammed under the steering wheel but your heel was stuck under the seat frame. This along with your foot held on the pedal, made it virtually impossible to apply any pressure to push the pedal down against the 5 springs. Hence the need of outside assistance in returning it to the normal settings.
At Derby we had a Driver called ‘Tripper Wood’ so named because he had been kicked by the pedal so many times, he used to slide his foot off quickly to avoid such occurrences.
He gave a very rough ride, but had a regular mate, who, I guess was used to his driving style.

Stephen Howarth

25/04/15 – 09:23

There was just one ray of hope in the spring operated “kick back” scandal. If you were lucky enough to survive without injury to the ankle, and your foot was not trapped, it was usually possible to apply both feet to the extended pedal while heaving the shoulders against the cab rear window area – first of course making sure to positively select neutral. This usually worked, although Goodness knows what the passengers must have thought to the performance !!

Chris Youhill

26/04/15 – 07:48

For completeness I should add that later CVGs had a gear selector gate on the left, very similar to the one on the Regent III. Later still, when air brakes were offered, the gearbox could be either Daimatic (like the Fleetline) or air-operated preselect like the Regent III. But the spring-operated type continued to the end on vacuum-braked chassis.

Peter Williamson

28/04/15 – 06:59

Thanks for confirmation of the gearchange pedal positioning Stephen, and your reference to “tripper pedal” which I have not heard before, but is a very descriptive phrase. I had read that drivers’ knees were prone to a severe blow if the pedal kicked back, and Roger and Chris Y have also mentioned this, but how many of us realised that a driver could end up trapped with his knee under the steering wheel and heel under the seat frame? It sounds absolutely scandalous that such events could be deemed acceptable by manufacturers and operators alike, and must have led to severe bruising, and in extreme cases to fractures and torn ligaments/tendons, which are no laughing matter. On a lighter note however, Roger’s comment about injured drivers doing impressions of Richard III raised a chuckle. Presumably they would have preferred the RT’s air-operated system, but its only a hunch…..

Brendan Smith

23/01/17 – 07:33

As a child I recognised these AEC Regents which dominated route 1 from 1957 to 1967.
Route 1 was the last route to employ 7ft 6 ins wide buses full time. The 1 allocation was drawn from the ranks of 9.6 litre preselector buses A325-349, later A525 etc, and A657-756. When route 1 started the roads in the south docks were unsuitable for buses and it was not until autumn 1958 that the council paved the Dingle area roads. The route north of the Pier Head had similar problems but a parallel route was adopted for the 1 which was not too far from the docks.Buses replacing the Overhead Railway had three problems, paving being one but the others were the need for the buses to climb Dingle Mount whereas the LOR burrowed through the cliffs, which meant the powerful 9612Es were essential for the task. The other obstacle was Stanley Dock Bridge which, 7′ 6″ wide buses could pass each other but not wider buses. This was not resolved till the 1990s and so when the narrower buses were withdrawn during 1967/68 buses had to take turns to cross the bridge. The 1 route, under Merseyside PTE a shadow of its former self as a frequent route vanished on deregulation in 1986. Some extracts of this sourced from Liverpool Transport Vol. 4 1939-57 by Messrs Horne & Maund.

Paul Mason

York Pullman – AEC Regent III – LDN 96 – 67

York Pullman - AEC Regent III - LDN 96 - 67

York Pullman Bus Company Ltd
1955
AEC Regent III 6812A 
Roe H33/27RD

Whilst researching this bus I noticed that York Pullman got there first double deck buses the year prior to this bus in 1954 they were 3 Regent IIIs. I have photos of two of them which I will upload one day. I also noticed that they only had 10 double deckers in there whole history until being swallowed up by Yorkshire Rider in 1990 the York Pullman name was sold to Kingston upon Hull City Transport I think for coach operations.

A full list of Regent III codes can be seen here.

My Auntie Ada (Wilson) used to be a clippie on York Pullman – I remember when they had the half hour stop over in Easingwold, she and the driver would turn up at our house for a cuppa and a bun. Can’t remember any of the drivers, this would be in the late 50s, early 60s maybe. Ada was married to my Uncle Ted. They lived off Lawrence Street between James St and Granville Terrace.

Sue Thorn

I have just been reading the above comments and yes I remember Ada and Ted and also George Tyler. I believe George had the nickname Eggie because he used to be a driver delivering eggs. My Dad, Gerry Rank worked for York Pullman from 1939 until his retirement in 1990. He was a mechanic/driver. I have ridden many miles on their buses and coaches. My Mum was also a clippie, Molly, until I was born in 1956

Liz Greene nee Rank

21/10/11 – 06:41

I remember these Regents from when I was stationed at Linton-on -Ouse during my National Service in 1956. They were always clean and tidy

Jim Hepburn

16/07/12 – 06:30

pullmans ex garage

I think this must be the very last photo of Pullman’s garage in Navigation Road. It was an empty cavern the day before and flattened the day after. I had the quick thinking to take the camera along or I would have missed it.
They’re back out on service work again and concentrating of coaching which has noticeably increased.

Steve Oxbrow

16/07/12 – 16:21

The staff of the ‘New’ York Pullman Co did rescue the name letters from over the door. Now at the depot in Rufforth. Where the office (reopened) in Bootham tower. Now used for the same job by Transdev.

Steve Oxbrow

16/07/12 – 18:17

Oh how sad! I’m glad to have seen it but I almost wish I hadn’t if you know what I mean. I’ve so many lovely memories of this depot and the York Pullman company. Progress, I think It’s called!

Alan Hall

16/07/12 – 18:17

When was the photo taken, Steve?

Chris Hebbron

17/07/12 – 07:06

If it is any comfort, I looked on Google Earth and found that when the current image was taken, the walls from the temporary fence onwards were still in existence. The main building nearest the camera however has gone totally and is now a block of flats but then, they are quite attractive so at least the land went to good use. I fear that by now, all of the rest has gone the same way unless “saved” by the recession.

Richard Leaman

17/07/12 – 07:07

Am I correct in talking about the Regent that belonged to the late Tony Peart that it has a replacement top deck as I heard that it was badly damaged in a low bridge accident and had to return to Crossgates for rebuilding.

Philip Carlton

17/07/12 – 17:45

Philip There is a picture in the Geoff Lumb book about Roe showing the Regent prior to repair awaiting its turn at Crossgates.

Chris Hough

31/01/13 – 05:56

It was JDN 668 (Fleet No 64) that Tony Peart bought and took to many shows until he died and I believe now it is at a museum at Lincoln

Liz Greene nee Rank

01/02/13 – 06:03

Just to say that York Pullman 64 is indeed at the Lincolnshire Road Transport Museum and it is expected to be on show and give rides this Easter Sunday . A lovely bus !

Steve Milner

05/04/13 – 05:34

I was a driver for York Pullman from 1972 till 1985.
I remember very well driving the AEC double decker, fleet no 64, 65, 71, 72 plus two half cabs.
I also remember Gerry Rank and George Tyler plus Ada Connell and her husband Noel, there was so many employees at that time and back in 1972 getting drivers to stay was most difficult because of the low wages.
I found it was sad when the old directors decided to sell out and recall at the time it only took the new owners a couple of years to wreck a very good and long established bus company.

Brian Gallier

Bradford Corporation – AEC Regent III – FKY 24 – 24

Bradford Corporation - AEC Regent III - FKY 24 - 24

Bradford Corporation Transport
1950
AEC Regent III 9612E 
Weymann H30/26R

This photo was taken just up the road from the Alhambra Theatre passing the entrance of the old bus station. This 1950 Regent III is on route to Queensbury and believe you me it is uphill all the way. There is a good saying referring to Queensbury which is just under 1000 feet above sea level it goes like this “Queensbury has 3 months of winter and 9 months of bad weather” not strictly true but its a good Yorkshireism.

A full list of Regent III codes can be seen here.

Bus tickets issued by this operator can be viewed here.

AEC Regent III 9612E with 8ft wide Weymann Body one of the 1-40 batch 1949/50. FKY 1 to 40.
Riding on them almost every day to school these became my favourite buses of all time and I used to know the 18 or so based at Horton Bank Top Shed as old friends. They were a good buy with last ones 7 and 13 going in 1970 and were preferred to the later tin front East Lancs ones 66-105 who’s bodies were not as good. Sadly none were preserved, indeed I don’t think there are any Regent III pre-selectors with the popular 8ft Weymann flared skirt body preserved, anywhere.

Kev

I also loved these buses as I lived in Great Horton from 1954 to 1971 and travelled on these buses nearly every day and I nearly have some 100 pictures of them some of which I took myself at bank top shed in the mid 60’s although not very good and I also have the original front number plate of FKY 17 (maybe the only surviving part of any of these buses) the nearest surviving bus I find to these is Morecambe & Heysham 73 which is under restoration at the Keighley Bus Museum.

Norman Shepherd

I can remember hearing the melodious tones of these vehicles whining their way up Great Horton Road on a Sunday morning when all was quiet and little traffic around. I have the back number plate off FKY 13 and dozens of photographs of them in service. FKY 1 was the first bus I wanted to preserve, but unfortunately this was not to be. Instead I have to endure “Bullnose” HKW 82 (nowhere near as handsome) and RT HLW 159 (not originally a Bradford bus) but that noise still haunts me to this day!!!!!

David Hudson

07/09/11 – 14:59

It’s interesting to observe the trend with these bodies to bring the paint down the front corners of the roofs. Amongst other operators, it was done with the postwar ‘provincial’ London Transport STL’s (and, bizarrely, one prewar RT late in life!)

Chris Hebbron

06/11/11 – 07:14

The paint style used on these vehicles varied over the years. When new the roofs were grey, and this did not come down the corners. They also had thin orange lining under the windows. Later the roofs were blue but they were not painted down the corners initially, this only happening in later years. Also there are variations as to where the cream was on the lower nearside bulkhead.

David Hudson

06/11/11 – 22:00

I recall these buses being used on the joint B.C.T and Yorkshire Woollen District service 4 to Dewsbury.

Philip Carlton

07/11/11 – 07:35

Trolleybuses 752-759 (FKU 752-9) had the same Weymann bodies, apart of course from the lower deck front end. In May 1952, 758 became the first British bus with flashing trafficators; it was the only one of the batch to survive until the end of the system, and is now preserved.

Martin S

07/11/11 – 12:16

752-759 were 5 bay though.
758 is slowly being restored at Sandtoft, under BTA (Bradford Trolleybus Association) ownership. My recollections of the 1-40 batch were that they were absolutely superb buses, and the quietest motorbuses I ever rode on. 1-22 (or 23?) were shedded at Banktop depot when new, as tram replacements, and were the most immaculate buses in the fleet for many years.

John Whitaker

29/01/13 – 15:33

I went to Bradford often as it was my favourite trolleybus system. The first visit was Saturday August 5th 1967 on a Dennis Loline from Manchester on the X12. Strange to recall that same vehicle 906 has been modelled by EFE on the X12! The trolleybus on that day were wonderful to see and ride on. However I also became aware of two other interesting observations. Firstly the constant drone of Bristol engined West Yorkshire Lodekkas slogging up Manchester Road to turn into the bus station and secondly the melodic sounds of Regent V buses echoing across the hills around the city centre. I always liked these buses despite being trolley replacements at various times. Used them on the joint service to Leeds the 72. The last time I rode on one was on one of the Christmas day services run from Keighley and I have a lovely video recording of 220 going to Dick Hudsons on another occasion.

Ralph Oakes-Garnett

15/11/19 – 07:26

Looks very similar to Burys pair, BEN 176/7, which became Selnec 6376/7. These were two of my favourite buses and one is preserved, 177.

David Pomfret

16/11/19 – 06:22

Re FKY 24 I have in my possession a roundel from an AEC wheel. Endorsed on the back ‘From the hub of FKY24 – B.C.P.T. Ticker’.
I guess Ticker worked at the Bingley breakers yard. For full story and 2 pictures go to “Flea Market Find” .

Roy Dodsworth

Samuel Ledgard – AEC Regent III – GWY 157

 
Photographer unknown – if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Samuel Ledgard Ltd
1948
AEC Regent III
Roberts H30/26R

This bus started life with another independent operator, Felix Motors of Hatfield near Doncaster and was number 26 in there fleet, it was new to them in 1948 and was sold on to Samuel Ledgard in 1962.
Samuel Ledgard were different to other bus operators in the fact that they did not have fleet numbers, I don’t know why, maybe you do? if you do please leave a comment.
If you want to know what the livery of Samuel Ledgard looked like there is a colour shot here
This bus has a Roberts body of which I know absolutely nothing, and the only thing that comes up on “Google” is as quoted below which is from the Lincolnshire Vintage Vehicle Society website regarding Colchester Corporation Daimler CVD6 No. 4, if you know anything about Roberts bodies please leave a comment.

“Roberts were an unusual choice of bus body builder – they were more commonly associated with railway vehicles and occasional trams. The body is unusually heavy – weighing about half a ton more than most buses of similar size. This affected the fuel consumption of these vehicles and may have been a factor in the decision to cancel the second batch of five”
To see more regarding the above quote go here

Bus tickets issued by this operator can be viewed here.

A full list of Regent III codes can be seen here.

Charles Roberts of Wakefield built this and many other bodies, including Sheffield’s last trams and Blackpool’s Coronation cars.

John Hibbert

“It is no wonder that the Roberts bodies were so heavy as the quality, both in structure and in fittings, was of the very highest. They also managed to present a comforting vintage appearance and ambience but without looking “old fashioned.” Superb varnished woodwork was everywhere, and the top quality heavy leather seats were of the best. GWY 157 was a fine machine but ended its Ledgard career rather strangely allocated to Yeadon Depot – normally a lowbridge stronghold – and therefore only realistically available for school journeys avoiding Henshaw Lane.
Why there was never a fleet numbering scheme I have no idea, but certainly the firm managed very well without one. Any confusion was normally avoided by allocating vehicles with similar registrations to different depots – there were quite a few cases of this over the years. However, in the run up to the West Yorkshire takeover most of the fleet were allocated fleet numbers before the last minute decision was taken to re-licence many of West Yorkshire’s own withdrawn vehicles instead. For example, PNW 91/2/3 were to be DLW 1/2/3, the RTs were to be DA 1-34 etc etc. What a shame this never came to be!!

Chris Youhill

New 1/9/48
AEC Regent III 0961
Chassis No: 1684
Entered Ledgard fleet 19/01/62

Terry Malloy

Although it was unusual for a bus company not to use fleet numbers, I seem to recall that East Kent Road Car also managed to operate successfully without them. Presumably staff simply referred to their buses by the digits on the registration plates?

Brendan Smith

26/03/11 – 07:25

Burton upon Trent Corporation operated 6 Guy Arab 111 5LW’s with lowbridge Roberts bodies, delivered 1947. See photograph on p51 May 2009 issue of Vintage Roadscene.
These vehicles also had heavy leather seating and varnished interior timber trim – painted over by the Corporation mid 50’s. They developed a sagging roofline quite early in their lives.

Clive Baker

Hull Corporation – AEC Regent III – OKH 336 – 336

Hull Corporation AEC Regent III

Kingston upon Hull Corporation Transport
1953
AEC Regent III
Weymann “AuroRa” H32/26R

Regent III I hear you shout, yes I thought it was a Daimler as well, until Paul Morfitt a K.H.C.T. expert pointed it out to me. K.H.C.T. bought 6 of these Regent IIIs with the Birmingham style tin front, they were apparently the last front engine/open platform buses bought brand new by them. Fleet number 337 is now fully preserved and should be out on the rally circuit next summer (2010) so keep your eye out for it. There is also a restored Bradford City Transport Regent III with a similar tin front it can be seen here.

04/04/13 – 06:28

The Weymann Aurora body is something of an enigma. The first one – also co-incidentally on an AEC Regent III with tin front – was built for Devon General and exhibited on the MCW stand at Earls Court in 1952 alongside the prototype Orion. An MCW sales brochure was produced, which was still being distributed two years later, but no more bodies of that type were ever built. In the meantime Weymann had been building this much more elegant design, which most people agree bears no resemblance to the prototype described in the brochure, and which could instead be traced back much more clearly to earlier Weymann bodies. It is almost as though Weymann simply thumbed its nose at the MCW design team and just carried on with their own design evolution as if nothing had happened.
To confuse matters still further, a brief article in a recent edition of Classic Bus magazine, describing the prototype (which is now preserved) as unique, it was answered by not one but two letters referring to production Auroras as “virtually identical” to the prototype – one of them referring to these Hull vehicles and the other I think to some Bristols for Maidstone and District. It seems that resemblance, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder!

Peter Williamson

04/04/13 – 08:29

The Aurora is certainly an enigma – and a trap for those who only know half the story. I too have been puzzled by the lack of similarity between to prototype and production versions but the Weymann Story (in two volumes Senior/Venture) is very clear. The Aurora name was used for these modernised versions of the classic Weymann design (produced from 1953 to 1959). The MCCW Orion design was produced at Addlestone from about 1953 (the first being re-bodies of war time Guys for Maidstone & District). Interestingly, Addlestone were also building Aurora bodies on war time Bristols for M & D. What most people didn’t realise – me included – is that the Aurora name was then resurrected as the official and proper name for the forward entrance version on the Orion.

David Oldfield

04/04/13 – 11:03

Just remembered the Bournemouth trolleys which had the Aurora as late as 1962.

David Oldfield

04/04/13 – 11:04

NTT 679

Here is a photo of the preserved one-off 1952 Aurora, Devon General NTT 679, taken at the Devon General Running Day at Newton Abbott in 1993.

John Stringer

04/04/13 – 15:49

The main difference between the prototype Aurora and the production model seems to be the move from pan window fixing to rubber mounting.

Here is an example of the production version as supplied to Birkenhead Corporation in 1954. Apart from being on an exposed radiator chassis, it differs from the Hull version in having a 5-bay body. The traditional Weymann drooping saloon window is much in evidence. Birkenhead dabbled with Weymann as a body supplier. The batch of 10 Auroras was not the whole of the CBG intake, the remaining 5 of the batch having locally-built Ashcroft bodies. The 1955 intake of 17 vehicles (10 PD2 and 7 Arab IV) saw half the PD2s bodied with the Orion style, and finally in 1964 came the one-off batch of 10 Fleetlines, again with Orion style, one of which appears on the left of the picture. (Originally delivered with the cream relief as window surrounds only, the appearance of the Fleetlines was much improved with the application of the standard livery on repaint, as seen here.)

Alan Murray-Rust

05/04/13 – 05:51

To me there are more differences than similarities. On the prototype, the dimensions of the windows – deep lower, shallow upper – are more like a production Orion than any other Aurora (and the deep lower deck windows were made much of in the sales brochure). On the production version, as Alan says, the traditional Weymann drooping bulkhead window is much in evidence, whereas on the prototype the top rail is straight and only the bottom curved, again just like most highbridge Weymann Orions. In fact the only similarities I can find (using other images) are in the front and rear domes and the rear emergency window.

Peter Williamson

23/04/13 – 07:50

My favourite bus, thin steering wheel and a smooth seat which you could slide off on exit from a roundabout and if it was a hot day and your cab door was open it could be interesting. A lot of drivers didn’t like them because you couldn’t see the pavement from the cab. I thought they were great, the exhaust would roar when you put your foot down.

box501

03/06/14 – 12:52

The Daimler and Guy Utilities of Maidstone and District were rebodied with a later form of five bay Weymann body derived from the pre and early post war design but with deeper windows upstairs. Only some Utility Bristol K6As had four bay ‘Aurora’ or five bay ‘Orion’ bodies. The only Orion bodied Guys which Maidstone and District had, were the Guy Arab IVs acquired or ordered by Chatham and District which were based on new post war chasses.

Gordon Mackley