…of vehicles pre-1970
Copyright Ray Soper
This shot is from the Ray Soper gallery contribution titled “Chiltern Queens of Woodcote” click on the title if you would like to view his Gallery and comments.
The shot is shown here for indexing purposes but please feel free to make any comment regarding this vehicle either here or on the gallery.
This is an AEC Regent III of Nottingham City Transport, body by Charles Roberts of Wakefield. The location is Nottingham Old Market Square. This series were purchased (I think) about 1948/9 and ran until the mid/late 1960s. (Latterly they were renumbered into the 400 series I believe). As built they had heavy traffic indicator arms that dropped back into their recesses after use with a satisfying thud. In the earliest days I can remember (1951-54) they monopolised the three Nuthall Road routes (1, 7 and 22) which served our area. These started from the steep incline of Hanley Street, round the back of the Theatre Royal, and the buses were provided with a stout metal wedge on a chain, which was jammed under the front off-side wheel while standing there, to avoid accidents.
Photograph and copy contributed by S Ford
28/11/11 – 09:17
My favourite buses. We lived near the No. 1 terminus in Aspley, and were well served by the earlier of these (301 to 324) for many years.
Harold Blythe
28/11/11 – 10:47
Hi Harold. So you were somewhere in the Rosslyn Drive area? As a little lad, I lived in a prefab on Aslockton Drive, so we always boarded at Bar Lane (just after the No. 1 had swung right out of Melbourne Road. Do you remember that there was a time clock at this stop, and conductors had to “clock in” before the bus could proceed? If they were a bit early, they would rattle the handle up and down, trying to make the clock jump forward a minute. I seem to remember the Roberts were later rather disfigured internally by having the fluted “jelly-mould” light fittings removed, leaving naked bulbs instead.
Stephen Ford
29/11/11 – 09:39
Stephen, there was also the time clock on Mansfield Rd.,where amongst other buses the 69 or 52 from Arnold would pull up at on our route in to the City from my grand parents house on High St., seems such a long time ago now.
Roger Broughton
29/11/11 – 15:05
Hi Stephen. We lived on Eltham Drive and later moved to Valley Road at Sherwood. There was a similar clock at the Valley Road/Hucknall Road junction, used by the 2, 6, 17, 18 & 28 routes. Would you have a photo of one of those buses on the 1 route or one of the routes I have just mentioned please? Yes, I think you are right about the lampshades.
Harold Blythe
29/11/11 – 16:09
Roger and Harold, Regarding the time clocks, there was quite a number of them. They were on inward journeys to “City” and noted in the timetables, usually as the only intermediate timing point. From my 1971 timetable, they were at Villiers Road (Mansfield Road services – 10, 20, 52, 57, 69, 73, but not used by the 25 circular), “Valley Road Clock” (Hucknall Road services 2, 6, 17, 18, 28), Bar Lane (Nuthall Road services 1, 7, 22), St Margaret’s Church (Aspley Lane services 16, 16A, 30, 32, 62, 74), Hillside (Derby Road services 5, 19, 45, 63), Old Market Square (former trolleybus routes to Trent Bridge, 41, 43, 46 + 75), and Cardale Road (Sneinton Dale services 3, 59).
Harold, the same lamp fittings were used (and later left off) on the post-war trolleybuses, and the big batch of Park Royal AECs built around 1952-4, but they were mounted the other way up, which always struck me as ungainly and “upside down”! Funny the details that attract the notice of a 4-year old!
Stephen Ford
30/11/11 – 06:28
Knew I’d seen a picture somewhere of a Roberts on a No. 1 at Hanley Street terminus. See this link //nottstalgia.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7255
Stephen Ford
30/11/11 – 15:01
Nothing to do with the bus, Stephen, but why is the tower in the background at a different angle to the building in front of it? Are they unrelated edifices?
Chris Hebbron
30/11/11 – 15:03
Interesting memories – the thing I remember most about NCT’s Roberts Regent IIIs is the seats – a different style from other NCT vehicles of the period and far more comfortable.
In the early 1950s there was a time clock for 42,43,44 trolleybuses on Radford Rd, next to the school near Egypt Rd (inwards). This was moved during the late 50s/early 60s to the stop on Vernon Road just the Bulwell side of the Shoulder of Mutton (ring road). There was also one in Old Market Square in trolleybus days at least, at the stop outside the Bell Inn for 42, 43, 44 (outwards).
Bob Gell
30/11/11 – 17:14
Re: the tower in the background at a different angle……… The tower is part of the building directly below it, but for some reason it is not parallel with it!. The main building is aligned to the road, but the tower isn’t
KC
30/11/11 – 17:37
This has started something hasn’t it?! Chris, the clock-tower is indeed part of the building – known as Lambert’s factory (one of the correspondents on Nottstalgia farther down the forum mentions its conversion to offices, and the partial collapse that happened at that time). Why it is set at an angle, square-on to the top of Hanley Street, I don’t know.
Bob, yes I was unsure about the northbound timeclock in the OMS (Beastmarket Hill). The timetable I have gave no clue about the Vernon Road one either. It quotes Basford Northern Baths as a timing point, but of course that was the terminus of the 42 anyway. I suspect there may have been others earlier. Did other cities use them? I never spotted any.
Stephen Ford
01/12/11 – 07:37
Stephen – re the clocktower of Lamberts building, I seem to recall reading sometime that the tower sides are aligned to face geographic north south east west.
(No idea why though!).
Re timeclocks, an equivalent used in the Birmingham area for many years was the Bundy time clock.
Bob Gell
02/12/11 – 16:32
Thanks Stephen. I thought I had seen a photo of 307 somewhere, and this must have been it.
Harold Blythe
03/12/11 – 06:58
Sheffield had quite a number of Roberts bodied Regent III in 1948/9 for both the A and B fleets. They had a slightly different (a bit old fashioned) appearance than this Nottingham example. I remember the rather heavy rain deflectors over the saloon windows, the bulge to the cab front panel which doesn’t seem to be there in the angle of the shot of the Nottingham vehicle. Sheffield specified sliding windows rather than half drops. Both sets of bodies were of four bay construction which was rather unusual at that time being more of a 1950s design. Re Bob Gell’s comments, the Sheffield Roberts bodies also had passenger seats different from any others in the fleet having higher backs. I think Roberts made a more pleasing design of body for the 35 tramcars built for Sheffield in 1950-1952.
Ian Wild
30/12/11 – 07:36
Ian, Nottingham also had 15 Daimler CVD6s with Roberts bodies. They came before the AECs and were only 7 foot 6 wide, (the Regents were Nottingham’s first 8 foot buses). The Daimlers were similar to the preserved Colchester example, and like the Sheffield Regents had sliding windows. They also had straight backed seats, instead of the high back contoured ones that Bob referred to. Here is a link //www.flickr.com/photos/
Stephen Ford
02/05/12 – 08:55
Stephen – do you recall that the ‘Roberts Regents’ came in two ‘varieties’.
a) three half drop windows per side on both decks and glass lamp covers.
b) four half drop windows per side on the upper deck and two per side on the lower deck but no lamp covers.
Can anyone remember where the split between the two ‘species’ came in terms of fleet numbers?
Roger, Harold, Stephen and Bob – there were 13 locations at which NCT had time recorders (known as ‘clocks’) as opposed to the clocks situated at terminal points. Time recorders were located at
(1) Aspley Lane/Melbourne Road
(2) Nuthall Road/Bar Lane
(3) Vernon Road/Valley Road
(4) Hucknall Road/Costock Avenue
(5) Mansfield Road/Villiers Road
(6) Gedling Road/Westdale Lane (services 25/25B to Mapperley)
(7) Carlton Road/Alma Road (services 38/39 inwards)
(8) Sneinton Dale/Cardale Road
(9) St.Anns Well Road/Bath Street (services 40/47 inwards)
(10) Bath Street/Victoria Baths (services 38/39 outwards)
(11) Derby Road/Hillside
(12) Old Market Square/Processional Way
(13) Old Market Square/Angel Row
The recorders at St.Anns Well Road and Bath Street were also used as crew relieving points known as Bath Street Junction and Bath Street Clock respectively.
Michael Elliott
03/05/12 – 09:00
Hi Michael, Thanks for this. I was sure there were more clocks than I was able to infer from the timetable. Now you mention it I do remember waiting for time at the GedlingRoad/Westdale Lane stop on the 25 – wasn’t this stop called Dr Parks’ Corner, or was that the Burton Road/Gedling Road stop?
I hadn’t realised the differences between the two batches of Roberts Regents. It was my impression that both started out with the glass jelly-mould lamp fittings, and both lost them towards the end – though I could be mistaken. (They also featured on the Roberts Daimlers and the Roe-bodied trolleybuses. They were also fitted on the later Park Royal OTV series Regents, but mounted the other way up (upside down!) as also the 1950 trolleybuses (KTV500-601).
Stephen Ford
03/05/12 – 10:00
Michael, I’ve been thinking some more about the timeclocks. There was one on almost every group of routes. The exceptions suggest they were a fairly early innovation, which was not perpetuated as the route network developed after about 1950. The following routes did not have them:
4 and 4A Beeston routes – These were originally through routes from Arnold (replaced by the 57) so passed the Villiers Road clock. 9, 54, 65 Mapperley/Carlton via Gordon Road. However the 9 originally ran via Thorneywood Lane and Carlton Road, passing the Alma Road clock.
31 Mapperley via Woodborough Road. Originally however this ran through to Trent Bridge as 35, and would therefore pass the Processional Way clock.
56 and 60 Bilborough via Ilkeston Road. Services not introduced until about 1948 by which time I suspect the decision had been taken not to install any more.
58 Radford via Castle Boulevard. Until about 1953 this ran across city to Sneinton Dale as route 3, and would pass the Cardale Road clock.
The clocks also seem not to have been fitted on any joint service routes – i.e. West Bridgford, Clifton or the Basford via Nottingham Road trolleybus routes – which were joint with the Notts & Derby Ripley trolleys until 1953.
Stephen Ford
07/03/13 – 06:53
I am now 44 and grew up in the Bakersfield area and so remember the AECs going up and down Carlton Hill. 39, 72 and 25 were the numbers and I used all of them but the 39 the most when we would go to Wollaton Park.
I remember the county council taking down the old trolley bus posts and the suspended central road lights, but the city council left theirs in for many years after that and they began near the old Fina petrol station and went all the way down Carlton Hill and all the way to Lower Parliament Street.
I really loved the old AECs, they just looked so right and I thought they would be around for ever.
One of my favourite spots was near the old railway bridge on Carton Hill at the junction of Porchester Road.
The railway signs were still on the bridge walls advertising various ticket offers and the pipe organ builders, old blue and white tin building stood on the corner of Carlton Hill and Porchester Road with the Coopers arms just around the corner.
When the buses stopped outside the organ builders at the traffic lights, they would often struggle at rush hours when packed with people.
The junction was much more narrow then and the old traffic lights were cast iron and had the word stop over the red lens in black.
These would often stick on red both ways and bring everything to a holt.
We would sometimes get off there and feed the horses at the fence at the edge of the field which is now the housing estate.
Any more memories from anyone?
David Morris
07/03/13 – 11:48
Intrigued by the advert for the pipe organ builder, David. As a professional organist, I only know one organ builder in Nottingham – Henry Groves. Is it he, or some other? Groves continues, in death, run by his grandson – Jonathan Wallace.
David Oldfield
08/03/13 – 07:22
The organ builder referred to is Henry Groves who occupied the former St. Clement’s church (a tin chapel)at this location. The railway bridge carried Carlton Road over the former Nottingham Suburban Railway, which had closed in 1951 and had been dismantled by 1954.
Michael Elliott
08/03/13 – 08:37
Thanks Michael. Henry Groves/Jonathan Wallace have quite a good reputation in the East Midlands.
David Oldfield
09/03/13 – 07:37
David,
Its a small world, I do know Jonathan Wallace and I do a small amount of organ building myself as it is one of my interests as well as buses and railways.
I sometimes went down there as a boy to watch them work and that is where my interest started.
Groves then moved to the old sports hall at the back of the old Hogarth school at the bottom of Carlton hill near the old Crown pub, (later Smitheys and now gone).
Jonathan still works near Nottingham.
As you are a professional organist, I could do with some advice as I am trying to get to grips with the Theodore Dubois Toccata in G, with very slow progress.
Anyway back to the subject of Buses, Does anyone have any photographs of AEC Regent III bus OTV 161, as I am the current owner and would like to try and put an information board together for the public.
David Morris
09/03/13 – 13:49
David, glad you are taking care of this piece of NCT history. You probably know there are quite a few photos of OTV 161 on Flickr. The following is a selection from the Grimsby Cleethorpes Transport collection, from the time when it was with them.
www.flickr.com/photos/andysbusphotos/1
www.flickr.com/photos/andysbusphotos/2
www.flickr.com/photos/andysbusphotos/3
www.flickr.com/photos/johnmightycat/
www.flickr.com/photos/
Stephen Ford
10/03/13 – 07:46
Thanks for the shot of 154 Peter and thanks to Stephen for the links to 161.
Like the shot of 161 in the Market Square. I have seen a couple of the Grimsby shots before but the others are interesting.
If anyone has any dates or details such as last run in Nottingham, routes through its life, time at Grimsby etc, that would be great.
I notice the indicator lenses are different when it was at Grimsby as it has the bright orange jelly mould lenses fitted now.
These lenses are the ones I remember as a child, which I assume were fitted when the trafficators were removed. (Which year?)
There have been quite a few things which I have found during time working on 161 which make up some very interesting questions. Time for these some other time.
If anyone has any photographs of Regents on the Carlton route, that would really make my day.
David Morris
12/03/13 – 06:41
I’m pleased that David Morris is now the owner of OTV 161 and has had it back on the road. The late Peter Edgington and myself were the original restorers of 161 during 1981-83. We did the work ourselves, with assistance from friends from time to time, to a limited budget. We tried to ‘capture’ 161 as it would have been around 1960/61 and this involved the restoration of NCT style destination displays front, back and side, a complete repaint and mechanical work. Unfortunately, we were unable to find suitable half drop windows to replace those removed by Grimsby from the fourth bays on both side of the lower deck. I have photographs of 161 during its restoration and I’ll look these out and put together a gallery posting.
Michael Elliott
13/03/13 – 06:47
It would be really great to talk to you some time as I have a lot of questions to ask you.
Really looking forward to seeing the restoration photographs you took.
I will try and sort out some recent pictures of 161.
David Morris
20/06/13 – 13:32
Is somebody going to volunteer a nice shot (or shots – preferably including front, rear and interiors) of OTV 161, for inclusion on OBP? – This is just a gentle prod – pleeeaase!
Stephen Ford
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
06/01/15 – 05:43
Does anyone know please whether any of the Roberts AECs (301-341) survived the breaker’s yard? It would be great to see one again.
Harold Blythe
07/01/15 – 06:28
Sadly, I’m a hundred and ten percent certain that none did. If only…
Stephen Ford
08/01/15 – 06:47
Recent comments brought this section to my attention.
See my “Best bits” re Nottingham Area Bus Photos for some of my pics of these Roberts Regents.
Sad to see a final, final confirmation that none of these superb vehicles survived into the preservation era and I enclose one of my other pics to confirm that the class pioneer in particular went the way of all such flesh. Here is 301 just about intact (well, apart from the most important bit!) in a scrapyard up Commercial Rd in Bulwell. Unusual in that it still carries fleetnames and numbers – these were normally painted over before disposal.
Rob Hancock
22/02/15 – 16:23
Thank you both for the information and photo. It’s no use me offering to help anyone to restore one then! Very sad.
Harold Blythe
23/02/15 – 07:20
While none of these handsome machines still exist, there IS an example of a 7`6 wide Roberts-bodied Daimler, ex-Gash still in the throes of restoration. Sorry, don’t have contact details, but it has featured in recent enthusiast magazines. One suspects those involved in that project would welcome an active helper. In addition, of course there is the similar ex-Colchester example already restored and active in the care of LVVS
Rob Hancock
Photograph by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
This photo was originally on the “Do You Know Page” of this website but thanks to P Heywood for the following.
The “Louth” bus on your “Do You Know Page” is a Great Northern Railway (Ireland) bus which I think had its main bus operations in Drogheda (County Louth). Their first bus service (feeding into their railway route from Belfast to Dublin) started in 1929 and finished in 1958. Although they were basically a “Northern” company, they managed to keep their presence in the south after partition by continuing to build and maintain rail and bus equipment in their large workshops in Dundalk (just south of the border) which is probably where this bus was built. Their services were taken over by CIE in the south and Ulster Transport Authority in the north.
If anybody has any other information regarding this particular bus please get in touch.
08/05/11 – 10:21
In the book ‘CIE Buses 1945-1987’ there are two pictures of AEC Regent IIIs of similar outline operating with CIE. One shows 1948 bus AR437 (ZH3936) at Drogheda Bull Ring in full CIE livery, which looks identical in body design to 442 shown above. The other depicts AR294 (IY5396) at Eden Quay, Dublin, still in GNR livery but with CIE ‘flying snail’ emblem on the side. Although the bodywork looks broadly similar at first glance, AR294 has fixed glazing in the upper deck front windows, and is of 5-bay construction. However, in both cases the bodybuilder is given in the captions as Park Royal. I did wonder if they may have been built by the operator on Park Royal frames, or were they delivered as complete vehicles? Either way they certainly looked most handsome vehicles.
Bren
19/03/14 – 16:40
This bus was one of three built at Dundalk Works on Park Royal (London) frames, fleet numbers 440, 441 and 442. They were 7’6″ wide 56 seaters and were based in Drogheda and Dundalk, although occasionally made forays to Dublin. They lasted in service with CIÉ until 1968. These 3 buses were very similar to 7 others which were built by Park Royal in 1948, fleet numbers 433 to 439, which also lasted until 1968. One of these, no. 438, is preserved by the National Transport Museum and on display in Howth. Nine 8’0″ wide 66 seater buses, 299 to 307, were built at Dundalk Works on Park Royal frames around the same time as 440-442 and these were based in Dublin, Dundalk and Drogheda, although two of them, 300 and 305, were destroyed in the Dundalk Works fire in 1955. No. 306 was the last ex-GNR double decker left in service, being withdrawn in 1970.
It would not be correct to describe the GNR(I) as a “Northern” company, it was formed at a time long before Ireland was partitioned, its Head Office was in Amiens Street, Dublin and its main Works was in Dundalk and some other managerial functions were based in Great Victoria Street, Belfast. Its area of operations was roughly north of a line from Dublin to Sligo and it even operated extended Coach tours which covered the entire Country!
John Curran
20/03/14 – 07:05
John, thanks for the extra information regarding these delightful buses.
My comment about GNR(I) being a “northern” company is of course true in the sense that most of their mileage after partition remained north of the border. This must have created very many difficult political and business anomalies. The fact that their head office and works remained in the south was a direct consequence of their Belfast-Dublin trunk route.
Paul Haywood
20/03/14 – 17:09
Their railway network was savagely afflicted by the international border which meandered to and fro over some of their routes (or maybe it was the lines that meandered to and fro over the border – but the railway was there first!) Having closed all except the Dublin – Belfast main line, GNR(I) was no longer a network, and I guess it was logical to divide it at the border between CIE and UTA.
Stephen Ford
Photographer unknown : if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
Here we have one of a batch of the 76 AEC buses that Halifax ordered after the war to replace some of its well worn pre-war vehicles, they were mainly Regents with a few Regals. Most of the Regents were bodied by Park Royal and were not much different from the one above, there was an handful of Regents bodied by Roe who actually bodied all the Regals.
This actual bus was originally fleet number 324 and being above number 200 that would of put it in the “B” fleet which was owned by the JOC but it was transferred and renumbered 59 in 1952 which would then put it in the “A” fleet which was owned by the corporation. The “A” fleet ran services within the borough boundary and the “B” fleet ran services into the surrounding villages from Halifax.
I have included a close up of the above photo showing a small number 3 just below the offside headlamp, I have quite a few shots of Halifax buses and a number like below appears on one or two shots but not all by a long way, Does anybody know what they were for. I have heard something about class numbers given to certain batches of buses could they be that. If you know please leave a comment.
12/02/11 – 09:20
Yes, I think you are correct – the small numbers referred to class or batch numbers – but I do recall they were only applied to Corporation buses, not the Joint Omnibus Committee.
Eric R Sykes
13/02/11 – 06:33
Presumably these are the ones that had to have the front upper deck windows strengthened due to the very slender corner pillars? Does anyone know if the whole batch was so treated, I know one was sold to West Bridgford UDC, I imagine the remedial work had been done before being sold.
Chris Barker
18/08/11 – 11:49
According to the Peter Gould website, it was No.47 (ACP 421) that was sold to West Bridgford in 1963, becoming No.19 there. (By this late date it seems certain that the strengthening mod. would have been carried out). New in 1945, re-seated by WBUDC with the seats from their former No.19 (HNN 776) – a 1947 (!) Regent/Park Royal that had been withdrawn in 1962. ACP 421 was finally withdrawn in 1967.
Stephen Ford
Your right there Stephen just happen to have a shot of it with rebuilt upper windows. I see what you mean in the Huddersfield CCX 778 thread that’s one eck of a destination display.
Peter
Here we have two Sheffield Corporation work horses photographed on a very wet grey day. The Leyland is a Titan PD2/30 built 5 years later than the Regent it had a Weymann H31/28R body registration 4494 WB fleet number 494. It also had a concealed radiator which was nicknamed a “Tin Front” this style of radiator first appeared on Titans when in 1952/3 100 special Titan PD2/12s were built for Midland Red and had a similar style radiator to the B.M.M.O. D7. From 1954 and with a slight modifications the Midland Red look unfortunately became the style of concealed radiator for Titans until 1960 when the “scalloped” bonnet as it was called with horizontal slats came along, thank goodness. I’m afraid a sheet of tin with some slots cut in it does absolutely nothing for me, they even left space for the Midland Red badge to go in at the top which Sheffield made use of for displaying the fleet number. I personally don’t think you can beat the AEC Routemaster for the best looking concealed radiator design, if you disagree or have another suggestion please leave a comment.
A full list of Titan and Regent III codes can be seen here.
This is quite a nice shot of an AEC Regent III just departing Hull bus station on route 50, although only the locals would know were route 50 went as there is nothing on display for its final destination. This I think would of been rather an annoying system if you were a visitor to the area as the only thing you could be sure of is that if you wanted to go to the “Market Place” you were safe on this bus because that is where it is going via. I think this practice was more prevalent for some operators of mainly town services, operators of longer distance services usually had larger destination blinds showing places they went via. If you know of any operators who had strange practices regarding destination information please leave a comment.
Yet another cracking photo! Service 50 went to the pier via the old town were it connected with the Humber Ferry service which ran across to New Holland on the south bank. The service ran until July 1981 when the Humber Bridge was opened.
Paul Morfitt
Doncaster Corporation were even better on destinations: no route numbers and the blind often just showed the final destination with a single via if needed to distinguish different routes there: in at least one case (Skellow via Owston Park), the bus didn’t really go to Skellow, but stopped short at Owston Park: the via was patched out much later. Well… if you didn’t know where the bus was going, everyone would tell you!
Joe
The blind showing, Market Place, was what was known as a “via” blind showing one major part of the route, as there was only space for one line of text, this type of blind appeared during the war, as the larger figures on the blinds were the primary means of identifying the route. All native “Hullensians” knew which route they required by the number. These blinds also appeared until the advent of the “G” registered series of Atlanteans, when a true destination blind appeared.
Keith Easton
Interesting, Keith. I wonder if this was part of the wartime initiative to confuse enemy infiltrators – especially relevant in east coast ports. As you will know signposts and railway station nameboards were removed for this reason.
Stephen Ford
Yes, Stephen, I’m sure that there was an element of what you said, but the main reason for using large numerals was more mundane. As you may be aware, during the wartime blackout conditions, bus operators were required to reduce the brilliance of external displays, consequently the size of the numerals was increased in order to improve visibility at night from a distance. For the same reason trolleybus blinds, which were in black on white, were replaced by black blinds with white numerals.
Keith Easton
03/02/11 – 17:11
On the subject of uninformative destinations Eastern Counties with their use of the word Service as a destination took some beating just as useless was the use of the company title as a destination also a popular ECOC wheeze! Of course the SBG were a breed apart with their extensive use of paper stickers and nothing but a number displayed on the destination screen!
Chris Hough
03/02/11 – 20:04
Lincolnshire Road Car and Western/Southern National were also adept in later years at wasting the “via” screen on the company name or “Service No.”
Stephen Ford
04/01/18 – 06:51
Another quirk of the situation in Hull was that at the time Hull Corporation showed only a route number and ‘via’ blind, the local country operator, East Yorkshire, showed a destination and (usually) ‘via’, but no route number! So Hull folk had to be adaptable, especially if they lived on one of the several routes that were shared between the two operators.
George R
06/01/18 – 06:56
Until about 1936, Portsmouth Corporation had only a small number box and destination box. After this, a larger via box/ route indicator, plus destination box appeared on the vehicles. Sadly, the destination box displayed PORTSMOUTH CORPORATION and the destination was relegated to the via box with all the places the same size letters. Postwar, the destination box actually showed the destination! Let’s remember, too, that both route letters and numbers were used, but these changed according to the direction. 17/18 or A/B, the latter very unhelpful to holidaymakers at a seaside resort!
Christopher Hebbron
Photo by M Standeven
A nice shot of a very early AEC Regent III taken on the Isle of Man about 1964/5. The Northern Counties bodywork that Douglas Corporation seemed to favour is quite obvious by the front upper deck.
An interesting bit of information I came up with whilst researching Douglas Corporation was from Peter Goulds very informative website was that buses which operated within the borough boundary did not require road tax, if the route took it outside the boundary then it did. Needless to say they only had enough buses taxed to do the necessary routes and the letters “EA” which stood for “Extended Area” accompanied the fleet number. With a change of rules in 1964 no Douglas Corporation bus needed road tax to operate.
Now I know that the Isle of Man had and still have there own rules and regulations, but it got me thinking what the regulations were for the rest of the UK with regards road tax, MOTs and insurance. If you know please leave a comment
16/11/15 – 10:22
Something I have noticed but has not been commented on or explained is that DCT 56-59 (HMN 687-690) delivered in 1947, 60-63 (JMN 724-727) delivered in 1948 and 64-65 (KMN 835-836) delivered in 1949 had consecutive chassis and body numbers and were virtually identical, whereas the rest of the 1949 delivery, 66-71 (KMN 837-842) had much higher batches of chassis and body numbers, and were significantly different in outward appearance (gasket glazed indicators) and internal layout (one fewer seat on lower deck to create more luggage space). Was a batch of 10 chassis sent to Northern Counties in 1947, and when were the later deliveries bodied?
M Jones
Photograph by “unknown” – if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
This was the last of a batch of forty AEC Regent IIIs with what Kev from Bradford calls the 8ft wide Weymann flared skirt body you can see why. I’m afraid it is looking a little tired in this shot taken about 1964 outside one of Bradfords bus depots. Four years latter this vehicle went to scrap, one year after that fleet number 33 was the last one of the batch of forty to go the same way.
In 1957 the seating capacity of the upper deck was increased by 3 to 33, a 10% increase, 2 extra seats I can understand easier than 3, unless the original rear seat was only for 2, if anyone has any clues on this please leave a comment.
A full list of Regent III codes can be seen here.
Bus tickets issued by this operator can be viewed here.
Your assumption about the rear upper seat is correct. All post-war Bradford buses prior to the HKW batch originally had 30 upstair-seats (15 x 2). Most (possibly all, apart from the ex-London RTs, in which there was no room for this) had in due course an additional 3-seat unit added to the nearside rear.
Julien Melville
The location appears to be the old Thornbury works yard which was attached to the operating depot. It was a common sight to see de-licensed trolleys and buses parked here in less than sparkling condition often with smashed windows etc. The whole complex at Thornbury still exists as a warehouse facility.
Until the end of its life under the PTE the sign over the works entrance read car works!
Chris Hough
Here we have yet another Hanson rebuild, they certainly got there moneys worth from their vehicles. My thanks to the HPTG websites Hanson section for the information regarding this bus. This vehicle was originally a 1948 AEC Regal 9621E321 with a Duple C32F half canopy body with the registration DVH 311 and a fleet number 243. In 1953 it was rebuilt by Plaxtons with a full fronted C33F body and was renumbered 322 in the fleet. The final rebuild to a double decker came about in 1958 with a Roe H37/28R body and renumbered again this time to 350, this bus transferred to Huddersfield Corporation on the 1st of October 1969 when they bought out Hansons bus operations. I am not sure if it actually went into service with Huddersfield and if it did for how long, if you know please leave a comment.
27/04/11 – 07:32
Just a note to point out that the registration of 350 was actually NVH 399 not 394. It is incorrectly listed as 394 on the HPTG site, so I’ll let you off this time! It ran for Huddersfield for a few weeks after the takeover
Eric
Thanks for that Eric it certainly looks like a nine to me I have corrected above.
Peter
29/04/11 – 06:45
350 was lucky to survive to Huddersfield Corporation days. In 1963 during a heavy snowfall it crashed through a wall in rural Helme into a field whilst working the Meltham-Huddersfield service. It ended up on it’s side straddling the wall. Considerable damage must have been caused and probably even more in the recovery proccess. However it was repaired and returned to service. There is a picture of it on it’s side on P43 of P. Cardno and S. Harling’s book Hanson of Huddersfield & Their Neighbours.
Eric
18/06/15 – 16:41
As a Huddersfield resident, these pictures bring back memories of an interesting local operator, who had a great capacity – in the manner often used in Yorkshire – of ‘cobbling together’ older chassis and rebodying them to get extra years of service from them. I rarely travelled on Hansons double deckers, but used to travel daily to school in the late 1960’s on their Regal rebuilds, to old ‘Tanks’. To be a passenger on one of them travelling up Lockwood Scar is an experience that was totally unforgettable. Just a shame that I have lost my photos of these wonderful vehicles in service.
It is also good to see a picture of the old Huddersfield bus station, which disappeared in the early 1970’s to make way for the town’s ring road, and has been replaced by a soulless monstrosity that exists till this day. Must admit that the old one had very little protection from the weather
Tim Jackson
Photographer unknown – if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
This shot of a Morecambe & Heysham Regent III shows the older livery of green with three narrow cream bands, the newer livery which had an overall cream roof and a wider centre band can be seen here. This shot shows off very well the half drop windows which I should imagine were just the thing on a hot summers day whilst tootling up Morecambe promenade. Morecambe Corporation buses did not have route numbers just the destination and this bus is destined for ‘Battery which is more or less the centre point of the Morecambe promenade between Heysham harbour to the south and Morecambe golf club to the north.
When I say Battery “is” I may mean “was”, when I researched this posting “Battery” the place appears on Google maps along with the a little bed denoting “The Battery Hotel” I am presuming that “The Battery” was an old military building. But on Google earth there is no mention of “Battery” and all I can see is a car park I presume it is the map that is out of date. Does the place “Battery” still exist or is it now just a car park if you know please leave a comment.
The Battery was a large public house situated very close to the Heysham Road Depot.
Buses running to the Battery would normally have started the journey at Happy Mount Park.
Terry Malloy
The Battery Hotel still exists. The Battery referred to on Morecambe buses was actually a bus park across the road from the pub it was also adjacent to the Morecambe depot. A recent visit to Morecambe revealed that the site is now a Drs surgery and retail pharmacy Stagecoach run the local services in the town. In the seventies Morecambe had a municipal depot as well as a Ribble one as did Lancaster. Part of Lancaster’s municipal depot is now converted into upmarket apartments called The Old Bus Depot!
Chris Hough
I believe that before Morecambe was developed as a holiday resort and expanded accordingly there was a firing range on the sands between Morecambe & Heysham with the Battery Hotel taking its name from an artillery battery which had been sited nearby. The bus park across the road took its name from the pub, which still gives its name to a timing point on the local bus network although a medical centre/pharmacy now stands on the site of the Battery Bus Park. The Battery is the boundary point between Morecambe & Heysham which were separate local authorities until 1928 when Heysham Urban District and Morecambe Borough Councils merged, the Morecambe & Heysham Corporation bus depot which was a couple of hundred yards south of The Battery was therefore in Heysham.
Ian Simpson
Morecambe were still running over 20 AEC Regent IIIs when they became part of the enlarged Lancaster fleet. Interestingly Morecambe were the last operator to run petrol engined double deckers they were certainly in use in the fifties. Also some of Morecambe’s pre-war double deckers had retractable canvass roofs for sunny weather a feature I would venture to suggest were unique unless anyone knows different .
Chris Hough
Actually the Battery was a field artillery station, when Morecambe was a training depot for the army in the late 1800s. The Battery hotel is named for this reason.
Andrew Wild
Yes Chris, the pre war Regents had roll back canvass roofs from the 1936 Park Royal batch up to the last pre war deliveries. These were panelled in during WW2. The relevant Park Royal bodies had an almost vertical rear dome to accommodate the roll up. I could never understand, as a youngster, why this was so different to the standard PR rear shape! There were some really unusual sounding destinations too, Bare, Happy Mount Park, Heysham Towers as well as “Battery” spring to mind.
John Whitaker
08/04/11 – 05:00
The canvas roofs were not unique to Morecambe double-deckers – in fact they were a short-lived fashion with coastal operators in the early/mid thirties, when they were of course very common on coaches. Southdown certainly had some Short-bodied TDs of this type, one of which I believe still survives.
David Jones
21/04/11 – 06:18
And not just coastal operators. Cheltenham & District had a couple of them for some inexplicable reason!
Chris Hebbron
21/04/11 – 06:31
Perhaps for the Cheltenham (Gold Cup) Festival?
David Oldfield
29/01/12 – 07:28
As youngster I travelled on these buses regularly in the 1950’s. They were always immaculate and looked very smart in their green livery. During the early 1980’s one restored bus, fleet no.69, LTF 254 ran on the promenade Happy Mount to the Battery service during the summer only. Does anyone know what happened to this bus? 20 JTE 546 and 35 KTF 594 were advertised for sale by Quantock Motor Services in Somerset back in Jan 2011 – where are they now?
James Welsh
29/01/12 – 16:34
Nothing really to do with buses but the mention of Bare reminds me that in the 1950s my grandparents and I always visited Morecambe for the Illuminations. We always came on a Yorkshire Woollen excursion and the coach always stopped for a refreshment stop at Ye Old Naked man at Settle. My Grandfather always cracked the same joke saying that the man lived at Bare. The premises are still at Settle but I don’t think that many coaches stop there these days.
Philip Carlton
17/04/12 – 07:03
At the risk of being accused of wandering ‘off topic’, there were (are they still there?) two establishments in the eastern part of Morecambe called the Bare Tennis Club and the Bare Women’s Institute, causing some merriment to visitors. I attended Morecambe Grammar School’s 6th form in the mid 1960’s, and several of my classmates hailed from the White Rose county. They called Morecambe “British West Bradford”!
Pete Davies
20/04/12 – 18:13
Re the diversion to the Bare district of Morecambe, I once read or heard that Morecambe Corp would run a fast duplicate service to that area, leaving the regular service for more local people. At the starting point, the conductress on the duplicate would apparently call out “Bare people only on this bus”! Whether that’s just someone’s made up story, or actually occurred, I know not.
Michael Hampton
21/04/12 – 08:20
…..but it’s worth the telling anyway. Couldn’t bear to miss it.
David Oldfield
21/04/12 – 08:21
Shades, Michael, of the “Loose Women’s Institute” in Maidstone !!
Chris Youhill
19/06/12 – 08:23
Morecambe’s petrol engined AEC Regents were still running until at least 1965 as open toppers. I worked on them then as a conductor during that summer after leaving school. As they were only 7′ 6″ wide, collecting fares with standing passengers was a nightmare!
David Platt
19/06/12 – 09:16
The pre war Morecambe fleet was a classic collection of thoroughbred AEC Regents, with beautiful Park Royal or Weymann bodies, and they are engraved on my childhood memory. All were new with petrol engines, and the post 1936 Park Royal examples had sliding sun roofs, panelled in during WW2. a few survived as open toppers, as described by David above. There is a fleet list on this site to whet your appetite, which also covers Lancaster Corporation.
I just wish that I had taken photographs of these buses, as it was this fleet, during my early childhood, which cemented my interest in buses. I realised at an early age, that buses came in different, but subtle shapes, and that our home fleet in Bradford had some of identical pattern (Weymann).
If anyone knows of a photograph source for this pre war fleet, then I would love to know.
Another fascination was the haphazard, gap filling fleet numbering system, only just recently unwound in my mind thanks to the fleet list submitted by Dave Towers, for which , many thanks Memories!
John Whitaker
19/06/12 – 11:44
Well John, Sheffield were past masters at haphazard gap filling with the fleet numbers and with routes numbers. Possibly a bit biased, but I always preferred Sheffield to Manchester but I have to say the Manchester numbering system was always far better and more logical – 1000s and 3000s for Leyland, 2000s and 4000s for Daimler and blocks of route numbers for routes leaving the city down a particular common corridor.
David Oldfield
19/06/12 – 16:05
John If you can get hold of the Lancaster 75th anniversary brochure from 1978 you will find several shots of pre-war Morecambe buses including one overturned on the foreshore. The brochure can be obtained via Amazon. There is also a Super Prestige paperback album about Morecambe and Lancaster buses.
Chris Hough
20/06/12 – 08:08
Thanks Chris…I have both those publications, and also the “Morecambe Bay Buses” of c. 1978. The Super Prestige one is well worth having if you are a fan of either Lancaster and/or Morecambe. I just love the pre-war Lancaster “English Electric” flavour too! Bus shapes very similar to the Bradford Regen trolleys I was brought up with!
John Whitaker
21/06/12 – 06:57
Picking up David’s point, Manchester’s fleet numbering system was certainly a model of neatness, but its rationalisation of route numbers into corridor blocks was not without its critics. It has been suggested that it was far easier for passengers to remember the difference between 50, 64 and 161 than between the 41, 44 and 45 that replaced them.
Peter Williamson
10/10/12 – 09:34
Other than for a couple of brief breaks I lived in Morecambe from late 1958 up to 1982 and am therefore able to confirm/correct some of the above.
A bus coming along the promenade showing ‘Battery’ may indeed have come from Happy Mount Park, or it may have come from Central Pier. M & H were famous for sending spare crews out doing ‘promenades’, i.e. extras between the Battery and Central Pier – even when there was no earthly need for them! The turning arrangement at Central Pier was to back into a side street (Clarence Street I think it was called) – it would never be tolerated these days.
Buses also terminated at the Battery on the so-called ‘Circular’ service, i.e. Heysham Village – Battery – Promenade – Bare (Princes Crescent) – Torrisholme – Euston Road – Battery. After the arrival of the Leyland PD2s in 1960/62, they were the usual performers on the route.
I wouldn’t say that the Battery bus parking area was ‘adjacent’ to the depot – the depot being a full bus stop distance away. Don’t remember a firing range on the sands, but had there been one I probably wouldn’t have remembered it anyway.
I haven’t previously heard that the boundary between Morecambe and Heysham was at the Battery, or that the bus depot was in Heysham, but I’ve never been too sure where the boundary actually was so I’d better abdicate on this point.
I feel sure that the restored Regent III which ran on the promenade in the 1980s could only have been number 20 (JTE 546). Number 69 (KTF 254) was sold to the Mersey & Calder Bus Preservation Group in the late 1970s and is still, I believe, in preservation at present.
KTF 594 was fleet number 65 while with M & H.
I think that few people who have stopped for a break at Settle and parked in the car/coach park – even bus enthusiasts – will have realised that there is a bus depot located there. It certainly doesn’t stand out.
I think, Pete, that you have mentioned elsewhere that you attended Morecambe Grammar School in the 1960s. I did a full seven-year ‘stretch’ (1960-67) and I sincerely hope that your own experience of the place was significantly more positive than my own. This is perhaps a long shot, but did you happen to be a pal of one of the Mollitt twins? I wouldn’t be able to remember which one, but one thing I can remember is that they had forenames with the same initial letter – James and John I think.
Never known non-stop extras to Bare, I think that story’s apocryphal.
Morecambe’s last two pre-war Regents, 25 and 49, last ran, I think, in the summer of 1966, but they were diesel-engined by that time. I believe the conversion was quite late – possibly c1960 – by which time they were the only survivors. They were converted to open-top in time for the 1962 season, having been made surplus by the arrival of PD2As 90 and 91. When they were converted I believe the original gearboxes were retained, and as a diesel engine is much slower-revving than a petrol this made them hopelessly undergeared. I’ve heard that the drivers called them ‘two-gear’ buses – which would mean either second then top, or perhaps third then top.
David Call
24/06/13 – 11:40
James Welsh (29/01/12) above asks whatever happened to LTF 254. Well it is preserved and was in service at the Ribble event in Morecambe this year – my picture was taken at Heaton Park on 4/9/2011
Ken Jones
24/03/14 – 13:46
Mention of petrol engined open-top Regents running until 1965 was a little off the mark. The last petrols (enclosed deckers) ran after the 1959 season, new Leylands replacing them the following winter. Two petrols had been converted to diesel after the war – these engines subsequently getting switched to ‘newer’ examples, and it was these which became open-topped from 1962 lasting till 1967 by when some Regent IIIs had been cut down. Open top 65 and enclosed 20 were sold by Quantock late in 2011 passing to Ukraine, 65 known to have been put into use at Sevastopol in red as “London Bus Cafe” (what else!).
Richard Allen
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
16/09/16 – 06:17
Last November John Hewitt and Daren Hunt bought MTE 635 from Ken Wade. Hopefully back on the road in 2 years time.
John Hewitt