Tag: AEC

National Omnibus – AEC Regent I – GF 7217


Copyright V C Jones


Copyright Surfleet Transport Photos


Copyright J C Gilham

National Omnibus/LGOC/London Transport
1930
AEC Regent I
Short Bros. L26/24R

In LGOC days, it competed with independents as much in the rural areas around London as in Central London. Two of the main contenders were, in the South, East Surrey, based in Reigate, and, in the North, the National Omnibus and Transport Co. Ltd, based in Watford. Slowly, they integrated their services and were eventually bought by LGOC, nevertheless still ploughing their own furrows, even to the extent of choosing their own vehicles.
Both organisations suffered from routes with low bridges and bought lowbridge buses. National solved their problem with six AEC Regent I’s, with Short Bros. lowbridge bodies for the Watford-Chesham service (later route 336). Unusually, the 24 upstairs seats were 3-in-a-row bench ones, accessed by a sunken gangway each side.
They all went into service in May/June 1930 and lived a steady life until 1941, when the double-decking of the single-deck route 127 (Morden-South Wimbledon) caused some to be painted red and despatched to Merton Garage until mid-1943. Others went to Godstone Garage, Surrey, to assist in route 410 and Weybridge Garage, also with a low bridge problems. Not only did they wander about, but they were also “Londonised” during overhauls, but each one was done in different ways until not one looked like any of the others! They outlived all the other ST’s and were even re-engined with diesel engines around 1949-50 from scrapped STL’s, to extend their lives, until the eventual advent of RLH’s, which sealed their fate.
All were withdrawn in October 1952,, with some being sold on for further use. The last one (ST140) seems to have been finally withdrawn as a bus in August 1954, having served a very creditable 24 years service, for a wooden-framed body. Even then, it was spotted cut down as a lorry, in June 1955!

Photographs and Copy contributed by Chris Hebbron (with help from Ian’s Bus Stop website)

20/07/15 – 05:42

The first photograph is almost certainly taken along the A320 near Staines, looking South with the bus heading North. The offending bridge is still there, and regularly struck by buses on charter and heading for Thorpe Park. The surrounding scene, unsurprisingly, has changed beyond all recognition.

Grahame Arnold

23/07/15 – 08:51

Always fascinating to see photos—and especially interior shots—of these twin-side-gangway deckers. Fine dignified design.

Ian T

24/07/15 – 05:44

I have heard about twin gangway lowbridge buses, but only ever had the doubtful pleasure of travelling on the single offside gangway type – mainly Hants & Dorset and Southern Vectis, but a couple of journeys on Seaview’s Titans. How was the nearside gangway reached once one got to the top of the stairs?

David Wragg

24/07/15 – 05:46

I remember the low bridge vehicles of Newcastle Corporation and United ‘among others’ they were a standard low bridge layout with four seats across, and a single sunken gangway down the off side which ran from the top stair, and had a step up over the drivers cab. Never having seen one of these before, how on earth did you get to the nearside gangway?

Ronnie Hoye

25/07/15 – 06:05

If I understand the drawings correctly there was a lower height gangway running transversely between the rearmost seat and the nearside gangway.
Incidentally National were not owned by General but had an area agreement with them. When the railways bought in to National, geographic names got added, Eastern, Southern and Western, but not Midland.

Stephen Allcroft

26/07/15 – 06:35

Further to Stephen’s comment on the area National names, I believe both Midland and Northern National were registered, to protect the names from use by others. However Northern was never used, there being no obvious company in the National empire, and Midland was not used, as it became an operating area of Eastern National, almost entirely separate from the main Essex Eastern National area. In 1952 it was transferred to United Counties, increasing that company’s size. Eastern National then regained size by the transfer of Westcliff on Sea Motor Services, and the take over of Hicks Bros and others in Essex at around that time. (Moores of Kelvedon survived for another 10 years or so).

Michael Hampton

27/07/15 – 06:42

Thanks Stephen, now we know how, the next question is, why? I suppose it made sense to someone, but I don’t understand the logic in having an extra gangway which reduces seating capacity, and would presumably be more expensive to build.

Ronnie Hoye

27/07/15 – 17:07

The conventional lowbridge layout must have been extremely inconvenient at busy times. If the person furthest from the gangway wished to alight, the other three passengers on that seat would have to unload themselves into the gangway and move forwards to let them out. If similar things were happening on the seats in front, the result could be the passenger equivalent of gridlock! Providing an extra gangway would completely eliminate this problem.

Peter Williamson

27/07/15 – 17:08

I guess the objective was to speed up boarding and alighting times, and perhaps make fare collection easier as well. Certainly being a conductor on an offside gangway lowbridge bus must have been a challenge.

David Wragg

30/07/15 – 06:14

I recall travelling on Hants & Dorset lowbridge Bristol Ks between Poole and Bournemouth on occasion. They had the gangway on the nearside upstairs IIRC, and it certainly was chaotic if the bus was busy. It must surely have led to delays, and issuing tickets to the passenger/s furthest from the gangway must have required some dexterity and conductors with very long arms!

Grahame Arnold

30/07/15 – 08:43

Did Leyland have some kind of patent on the single gangway design, or am I deluded?
In more prim & proper days it may have been felt undesirable with single gangways for gentlemen to be clambering over ladies’ knees to leave their seats? Still is, really. These designs always seemed a necessary evil, as big operators seemed to dispose of these types when bridges permitted- and hence the appeal of the Lodekka, although this presumably also gave an opportunity for standardisation in a limited market.

Joe

31/07/15 – 06:31

Unless I am mistaken, the bus in the top picture by V.C. Jones on the 461 route bears the registration GF 7214; this identifies the bus as ST 140.
In the late 40’s/early 50’s, Harrow Weald (HD) garage was host to ST 136, ST 141, ST 162 and ST 1090. At various times I rode on all 4 of these fascinating vehicles on Route 230, which had two low bridges, one of which was in Headstone Drive, Wealdstone close to the now defunct Kodak factory.

Jon Harry

31/07/15 – 06:32

As a youngster, I remember low bridge buses with an off side gangway, but instead of one seat going four across, they were staggered two by two, with the nearside pair being slightly further forward, but I cant for the life of me remember where I saw them. Newcastle had All Leyland PD2’s and Park Royal Regent V’s, and United had ECW Bristol KW’s, but I don’t think it was either of them. Moor Dale had a couple of Ex Ribble PD2 White Ladies? or it may have been whilst I was on holiday with relations who lived in Kilmarnock ‘Western territory’.

Ronnie Hoye

31/07/15 – 06:32

I seem to recall seeing photos of piano-fronted buses with about a 3/5ths wide central roof-bulge down the whole length, front to back. If this isn’t one of my wildest imaginings, was this the earliest variant of a lowbridge bus? I don’t think that they had anything to do with the Beverly Bar.

Chris Hebbron

31/07/15 – 09:03

Chris, what you describe would seem to have been early AEC Regents with the “camel roof” body design. This was a normal highbridge body that had the roof level lowered except for the central section over the gangway. I imagine that one had to be careful not to bang one’s head when leaving one’s seat. The reason for this rather futile idea was to give the visual impression of a low roof line to compete with the Leyland Titan lowbridge design. It was soon abandoned.

Roger Cox

31/07/15 – 09:03

Chris, perhaps they were ‘tunnel’ buses. LTPB had some for the Blackwall tunnel.

David Wragg

31/07/15 – 13:39

Ref : Tunnels.
Did Buses as well as trams use the Embankment to Kingsway tunnel?

John Lomas

01/08/15 – 06:33

Ronnie, in 1952 West Yorkshire experimented with staggered upstairs seating on a 1951 lowbridge Bristol KSW6B (830, later renumbered DBW12: KWU368). The original rows of bench seats for four were replaced by staggered rows, each offering their four occupants their own individual seat, each seat being staggered back from the one to the left of it. The bus was loaned to United Auto in December 1952 for evaluation, so could this have been the one you rode on Ronnie? (If this is the case, I’m sorry if I’ve given you’re age away!). West Yorkshire’s 1953 delivery of KSWs, to be their last, were delivered with staggered seating upstairs, these being KSW6Bs 853/854 (later renumbered DBW33/34: LWR419/420) and KSW6Gs 855-864 (later renumbered DGW1-10: LWR421-430).
I still have vivid memories of riding upstairs perched on the gangway end seat of WY’s earlier lowbridge KSWs, as they swung around the sharp lefthand turn from Otley Road into Market Street, Shipley, on their way to the bus station. Not an easy task when you have only your left buttock on the seat, whilst the right one hangs in mid-air, attempting to defy gravity with only its attached skinny schoolboy leg to offer support. I’d put up with this all again however, just to ride on such a wonderful beast.

Brendan Smith

01/08/15 – 06:35

No, John L, although an experimental trolleybus was built and run through a few times. It had a normal nearside open platform, with an offide entry/exit, too, with sliding doors, necessary because the subway ‘stations’ had island platforms. The trolleybus roof was too high for it to use its poles, so would have had to stow these, gone through on battey power, then put the poles back up! I also read once that turning circles inside were tighter than with trams. When the tramway system closed in 1952, the subway closed with it.

Roger C – You’ve hit the nail on the head, (the clever metaphor won’t escape you!). I’d forgotten that Leyland did Lowbridge and Hybridge bodies which took added advantage of the low TD1 chassis. AEC’s futile camel-roof design was probably one reason for poaching Rackham from Leyland!

David W – The ‘Blackwall Tunnel’ buses were built much later than the ones I had in mind. They had conventional roofs, which were slightly more rounded. One feature they had was tyres with reinforced walls to extend life, since they rubbed along the kerbs of the two tunnels. Perhaps they even swopped the tyres offside/nearside periodically to further extend life. John H – Route 230, along with the 127 Morden-South Wimbledon, were the only two lowbridge routes in LT’s ‘red’ Central Area. The 230 was usually served by the unique ‘unfrozen’ lowbridge STL’s of 1942, whereas it was usually the green Country Area buses from Reigate which covered the 127 until 6 (later another 6)’austerity’ Daimler ‘D’s’ appeared in 1944.

Chris Hebbron

01/08/15 – 07:06

I recall travelling on Uniteds route from Newcastle via Bedlington to Ashington in Northumberland in 1963 I knew of United having 2 ECW Bristol’s KW’s In its fleet. Seating being 4 across always seemed to cause problems when full to capacity.

Alan Coulson

06/04/16 – 16:24

Ronnie, re your comment 31.07.2015 my apologies for this delayed reply but I am a newcomer to this group. North Western RCC had such a layout on a batch of 10 PD2/21s with Weymann bodied Orions KDB 671-670. There was quite a bit of publicity in the Stockport newspapers at the time about the technological “advances” with these staggered seats and the next time I was in Mersey Square I went inside one to have a look. Frankly, I couldn’t see what the fuss was about. According to Glory Days these buses were not liked by the crews.

David Revis

Brighton Corporation – AEC Regent I – FUF 63 – 63

Brighton Corporation - AEC Regent I - FUF 63 - 63
FUF 63_2

Brighton Corporation
1939
AEC Regent I
Weymann H56R

FUF 63 is an AEC Regent I of the O661 variety, built in 1939. She is at Dunsfold on one of the occasions the Wisley event wasn’t at Wisley, on 10 April 2011. The second view is a close-up of the fleetname and Municipal Crest. I have memories of reading – many years go and probably in Buses magazine when it was still called Buses Illustrated – that the arrangement shown results from an agreement between these two local operators, but not Southdown, whereby the buses and trolleybuses run by the Corporation and by Brighton Hove and District had the same livery and fleetname. The distinguishing feature for most people was that the Corporation vehicles carried the Crest as well. I suppose they had different ‘legal lettering’. Histories of the Borough of Hove I have seen suggest there was some jealousy there, because Brighton was elevated to the status of a County Borough, while Hove – seen as more genteel – was not, and had to keep East Sussex registrations while Brighton was allocated its own. “So you live in Brighton?” and the response “No, I live in Hove, actually.” seems to stem from this and some sources attribute it to Lord Olivier who did live in Brighton. A former colleague went to work for one of the Sussex Councils, and moved to Royal Crescent, Brighton. Lord Olivier lived next door on one side, and Dora Bryan lived on the other side.
The Titan 23 ACD next to 63 is a 1963 PD2/37 with a Weymann H37/27F body and was fleetnumber 23.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

05/11/15 – 06:41

What is most striking is how route information has been reduced over the years, especially important in a town with so many visitors. Bus operators should remember the old saying, ‘If you can’t tell, you can’t sell!’

David Wragg

05/11/15 – 16:49

Yes, David, I suppose there is ‘some’ improvement recently with the scrolling dot matrix display, but it’s still nothing like the London style or that shown on 63.

Pete Davies

06/11/15 – 07:05

But the London style is now just a single line display showing the destination.

Geoff Kerr

09/11/15 – 06:45

Of significance is that 23 ACD was the first double-decker operated as an OMO bus.

Dale Tringham

09/11/15 – 08:53

Ah, Dale! I bought some slides from your collection some years ago. Thank you for that piece of information. Was 23 “the first” in UK bus operations generally, or Brighton’s first?

Pete Davies

12/11/15 – 12:00

Brighton Corporation obtained a statutory dispensation enabling them to work this Titan driver -only in advance of general legalisation of double deck driver operation.
Great Yarmouth waited until the law changed to operate their PDR1/2s driver only, and were the second.

Stephen Allcroft

Reading Corporation – AEC Regent I – RD 7127 – 47

Reading Corporation - AEC Reagent I - RD 7127 - 47

Reading Corporation
1935
AEC Regent I
Park Royal L26/26R

RD 7127 is an AEC Regent I with ‘oil’ engine, making her an O661. Those with petrol engines did not have the O prefix, and it dates from 1935. It has Park Royal bodywork, to the L52R layout, and we see it at Longcross, Chobham, on 1 April 2007.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

18/03/17 – 07:14

Sister vehicles 11 and 46 were withdrawn as early as 1950, but the Corporation gave 47 a body rebuild and she ran till the end of February ’56, to the delight of a small knot of enthusiasts, one of whom sat in the front nearside seat upstairs as she rumbled over a cobbled bridge, celebrating the fact that she was now in her 21st year of service.
Seven years later Reading Transport Society member John Whitehead announced that 47 was still active, ferrying mushroom farm employees at Thakeham, W Sussex, and that the owners, A G Linfield, were shortly to donate her to the Society. In October 1963 we went down to pick her up and, being the only one of us over 21, I had the honour of driving. No bus could have been kinder to the novice: ideal driving position, excellent visibility, positive controls with no slack anywhere, nice progressive clutch and brakes,
easy gearbox, reassuring stability…47 has it all. Mike Dare and I did all our pre-PSV-test driving practice on her before joining Smiths Coaches. Over the next few years we covered hundreds of miles in 47 to and from rallies, museums and—sadly—trolleybus system closures. Still in good mechanical shape, she awaits structural work on the body before being fit to carry a full load again.

Ian Thompson

18/03/17 – 16:12

Thanks for your thoughts, Ian. As previously, if you or any other members of the readership don’t have a copy of your own of this view, Peter has my permission to forward on your request.

Pete Davies

18/03/17 – 16:14

Memories of Doncaster’s Regent no 60 which apparently ran from 1942 to 1962 in a similar livery and Roe body, no doubt ferrying miners home from shift. It is no wonder that Donny seemed to like AEC’s: although nothing beats its all Leyland PD2’s with trolley rebodies which all did 25-26 years.

Joe

19/03/17 – 07:05

Provincial’s number 35 is a very similar vehicle except for being highbridge. That ran in service 1936-1966 with its original company before being sold to preservation. Its body is teak framed and aluminium panelled which accounted for longevity – does anyone know if this combination was used for other bodies by Park Royal and if they too lasted a long time.

David Chapman

21/03/17 – 15:57

Thanks for the kind offer of a copy, Pete. Superb photo!

Ian Thompson

Hanson – AEC/Hanson Regent – KVH 889 – 347

Hanson - AEC/Hanson Regent - KVH 889 - 347

Hanson
1956
AEC/Hanson Regent
Roe H37/28R

This bus was originally a 1938 AEC Regal coach registration ACX903 fleet number 113 and it had a Plaxton C32F body. It was then rebodied by Duple in 1949 to a front entrance bus with 35 seats and renumbered 284. In 1956 the Duple Body was transferred to an ex Bottomleys Motors 1946 Maudslay Marathon lll chassis and numbered 305 with Hanson, a photo of which is here. The chassis was then rebodied by C.H. Roe and numbered 347 with a registration of KVH 889 and classed as a AEC/Hanson Regent H37/28R. On every picture I have seen of this bus the engine side panel is not fitting correctly, I wonder if it ever did.
My thanks go to the Hanson section of the website belonging to Huddersfield Passenger Transport Group for all the information.

18/05/12 – 12:20

Maybe the ill-fitting bonnet cover was caused by chassis sag, especially as it was a double-deck AEC Regal!
The unrelieved red does the vehicle no favours.

Chris Hebbron

19/05/12 – 07:37

The chassis of 347 was actually built up from components of two pre-war Regal chassis, 113 as stated above and ex Chapman’s Regal Burlingham coach VH 9101 of 1936 which was withdrawn in 1954 after an accident.
It was the first of twenty two AEC’s to get rebuilt by Hanson’s over the next ten years and was the only one, apart from fire victim 1964 Reliance rebuild 384, not to pass to Huddersfield Corporation in 1969.
347 is far from being unique for pre war style AEC’s running with the bonnet side hanging off. For example, there are several photos around of Tom Burrows, Barnsley, very similar bodied Regents with the same problem. I’m sure I’ve seen a picture of one of Burrows Regents even running with an ex STL bonnet side in the same position.
Even though it is forty six years since 347 was scrapped, and it was well passed it’s sell by date by then, I have fond memories of riding on it and listening to that melodious prewar manual gearbox.

Eric Bawden

19/05/12 – 09:16

Extant pictures of SUT Regals approaching (or beyond) withdrawal also show the dropped panel effect. Why? That I can’t say.

David Oldfield

19/05/12 – 09:17

These complex rebuilds are indeed really fascinating. At Samuel Ledgard’s we had a magnificent (I loved it) AEC “Regal” coach with Burlingham body – I wonder how many of its merry passengers knew that it was a Birmingham Corporation 1930 Regent 1 double decker !! As Eric says about the Hanson vehicle, its powerful engine and wonderful gearbox, perfectly serviceable but delightfully worn to a lovely tune, were a joy. Incredibly, as it was definitely a “one off”, it was the subject of a Corgi model – a good model if you can forgive the Duple body instead of Burlingham and the registration number incorrect – FWJ 938, should be FJW 938 – ah well, better than nothing I suppose.

Chris Youhill

19/05/12 – 15:21

While I can’t recall seeing any ill-fitting bonnet sides like that shown, I can recall lots of London Transport’s veterans buses, in my childhood, which had unsecured bonnet sides propped up only by the nearside mudguard! Maybe this was to keep worn-out engines from over-heating!

Chris Hebbron

———

20/05/12 – 07:59

I always thought CVD6’s were meant to look like that!

Joe

Hanson – AEC/Hanson Regent – TVH 497 – 361

Copyright Eric Bawden

Hanson
1950
AEC/Hanson Regent
Roe H37/28F

Here we have a picture I took at Sandtoft around 1972/3.
This bus started life in 1950 with Hanson of Huddersfield as an AEC Regal III 9621E with a Duple C33F body, registration EVH 805 fleet number 295. To ‘modernise it’ in 1954 Hanson had Plaxton remove the front bulkhead and build a Venturer style full front on it. It was then renumbered 326.

Hanson - AEC/Hanson Regent - TVH 497 - 361

In 1961 Hansons’ rebuilt the chassis and had a new Roe H37/28F body fitted, re-registered it as TVH 497 and gave it fleet number of 361. Numerically it was the seventh rebuild in the series, the fourth double decker and the first front entrance decker. It passed to Huddersfield Corporation with the stage carriage operations of Hansons’ on 1st October 1969.
Thornes of Bubwith acquired it in October 1970 as their no. 57. Although listed as being withdrawn and scrapped in Thornes own lists in May 1972, it was eventually acquired for preservation.
It is seen in the above colour shot in as acquired condition and what appears to be ex Aachen 22, a 1956 Henschell trolleybus with Ludewig body along side it. As this trolleybus is kept at the Sandtoft Transport Centre one must assume 361’s destination blind is telling the truth! I’m afraid I didn’t keep records of the pictures I took in those days so have to rely on detective work to place and date them.
Sadly 361’s career as a preserved bus didn’t last very long, I believe it suffered a catastrophic engine failure and was sold for scrap.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Eric Bawden

13/07/12 – 09:08

Thanks for posting. I have in my “bought” collection a view of VVH 348 which, by that time, had migrated to the Porthcawl Omnibus Company.

Pete Davies

13/07/12 – 17:12

Pete, That would be 368 when with Hanson, rebuilt in 1962 from 1949 Roe H31/25R bodied Regent III 285, ECX 414.

Eric Bawden

14/07/12 – 07:39

Unfortunately I don’t believe 361 suffered any catastrophic failure at all, but was just sold. It was kept here where I live in Greenfield, less than five minutes walk from where I now live, along with various other vehicles including my own. It just disappeared one day and I was annoyed about it at the time and even more so now, as it is a genuine Saddleworth bus which would have appeared frequently on the Oldham service which ran past Greenfield station.
The shame is that, had it survived at Thorne’s, even out of use, a bit longer it might have joined their fleet of splendidly-restored vehicles.

David Beilby

14/07/12 – 11:23

I was always under the impression that a conrod came through the engine block and that is why it was scrapped. It did get repainted in an approximation of Hanson livery but the shade of red was far too dark, almost maroon. There are some photos about of it in these colours. The correct shade was a Dulux colour called Wexham Red.
I did know the owner at one time but it is many, many years since I lost contact with him.

Eric Bawden

18/06/17 – 07:02

I bought 361 from Thornes and moved it initially to Sandtoft. It was then subsequently moved to Huddersfield goods yard where it was repainted into Wexham Red. The bus subsequently moved to a mill yard in Greenfield where it received the engine from Morecambe 57.
361 attended some rallies in the mid seventies and visited Shildon for the anniversary in 1975 (?).
The bus was sold in serviceable condition when I got married in 1976.

Bill Roberts

London Transport – AEC Regent Bluebird ST – APC 168 – ST1037

APC 168

Photo: Copyright unknown

LGOC/LGCS/LCBS
1932
AEC Regent
LGOC H26/22R

The Bluebird six-wheel LT was an impressive and attractive variant of the LT class, but the Bluebird ST was rare. ST1037 was one of the first 8 of a total of just 23 Bluebird STs which London General built for their expanding green Country Services. Initially allocated to Windsor Garage by LGOC, under London Transport, it quickly moved to North London , serving at Tring until mid 1948, when it was transferred to Reigate for storage, then quickly re-allocated to Watford High Street Garage as a trainer.
Never having had an overhaul, looking very careworn, with deformed lower panels and body sag extending from bottom to the underside of upstairs windows, she is shown at Epsom Downs on route 406F on the shuttle service from Epsom Station to Epsom Downs during one of the Epsom Racecourse events, most likely around Derby Day, when any bus capable of moving was dragged out of dusty corners over to Morden and other places to operate shuttle services., Post-war, this attraction was often the death knell for some of these loyal, decrepit, worn-out servants, the stigma of imminent doom appearing as a crudely-chalked cross on the nearside wing! In December 1949, the axe fell and she was sold to Daniels of Rainham for scrapping and an undeserved end after over 17 neglected years of service. Not bad for a vehicle with a design life of about 10 years!

A couple of asides:
Note the Morris 8 maintenance van on the right 
Route 406F used the highest suffix letter ever by London Transport.
Some history of this vehicle taken from the excellent Ian’s Bus Stop website.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Chris Hebbron

18/04/20 – 05:48

Route 406F still operates on major race days, using the same route number and must be the last survivor of the Bassom route numbering scheme.

David Todd

19/04/20 – 06:05

Thx for that, David. Amazing the way some things survive in the most obscure and unique ways. It would not be surprising if the suffixes A to E disappeared years ago!

Chris Hebbron

20/01/21 – 06:53

Your text is slightly incorrect, Chris. These buses were delivered in the red livery of London General Country Services. Apparently the green country bus livery was first introduced in May 1933 prior to LT becoming operational. I presume the green livery as introduced in May 1933 was all over mid green with black relief and plain General fleetnames, that being the initial LT Country Bus livery. Apple green relief around windows was added later and in 1935 a new version with less black and possibly a different shade of the darker green along with London Transport fleetnames became standard. You can find pictures with LT fleetnames on the earlier green livery as well, the fleetname having been introduced in 1934.

PS: Surely the text should read “Never having had a post-War overhaul”?

Andrew Colebourne

31/05/21 – 05:02

Thx for posting the early history of these vehicles, Andrew.
As for overhauls, Ian’s Bus Stop makes no mention of pre-war overhauls, although there is mention of three of them having CHASSIS overhauls at Chiswick in 1948. It did nothing to prolong their lives, however, as all of the remaining ones went during 1949 anyway. It’s unlikely that they had postwar ones, for those LT and LTL’S which did have post-war body rebuilds, by outside contractors, lost their waistline cummerbunds, which this one still retains.

Chris Hebbron

Sheffield Corporation – AEC Regal IV – OWB 14 – 214


Copyright ‘unknown’ if you know please get in touch

Sheffield Corporation
1952
AEC Regal IV 9821S 
Roe B44F

Sheffield quickly tried out underfloor engined single deckers when they became available with three Leyland Olympics in 1951 and three of these Roe bodied AEC Regal IV in 1952. Notably, all were for the A fleet although I recall the Olympics in particular being regular performers on the C service 48 to Manchester despite their bus seats. The Regal IVs always seemed to be out of the limelight certainly later in life being used on workmens services to the east end of the City.Of particular note is that these three were owned initially by ACV Sales being purchased by Sheffield in 1954. This photograph shows the legal owner as the Secretary of ACV Sales at 49 Berkeley Square in London. The Sheffield coat of arms is displayed but without a fleet name. Notable is the City of Oxford like vee shape on the front panel which was retained throughout their lives except for 213 which later had an all cream front panel probably as a result of accident damage repairs. There is a substantial semaphore trafficator arm behind the entrance doors. It is hard to imagine what an impact these vehicles must have made being so different from the then standard half cab single decker and with ten more seats. The photo is taken outside the Roe factory in Leeds.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

A full list of Regal IV codes can be seen here.

16/03/11 – 10:05

AEC? Roe? Perfection? …..and yet these beasts eluded me in my Sheffield childhood. I was a regular passenger on the back-loader Leylands, though. Fascinating about the early ACV ownership – presumably as demonstrators.
I love the Regal IV, especially the RF, but these were a minority with synchromesh gearboxes. Contemporary SUT RegalIV/Windover coaches had a of majority pre-select gearboxes – but even these had a minority of synchros.
As a “heavyweight” man, I never bought into the “over-engineered” tag given to the Regal IV (and Royal Tigers). The heavy Reliance and Leopard righted this wrong but we had to go through a period when I thought vehicles were under-engineered – especially when Tiger Cubs had 0.350 engines.

David Oldfield

17/03/11 – 06:58

I used to go to the Sheffield Depot of Independent TD Alexander (Greyhound) on a Saturday afternoon. There was a fitter there who worked for Sheffield Transport at Greenland Road Depot (apparently Sheffield knew of this arrangement) where the three Regal IV were based at that time. He told me one day that they had sent all three out as Peak District extras on the preceding Bank Holiday Monday – and all three had to be towed back with clutch faults! I seem to recall a fair bit of trouble with the hydraulic clutch operation on the PMT Reliances, probably 214 et all had the same equipment.

Ian Wild

17/03/11 – 18:22

Notwithstanding their frailties, the longevity of these three buses amounting to 16/17 years service was no mean feat in Sheffield terms and compares favourably with the Leyland Olympics of the time. Perhaps their mechanical shortcomings were outweighed by the fact that they were bodied by Roe who had impressed the Department with the quality of the nine PD2’s of late 1951 for the Fulwood – Malin Bridge via Hunters Bar tram replacement.

John Darwent

17/03/11 – 19:22

I can empathise with John’s comments about the Roe bodywork, but would the clutch problems possibly be connected to the gearbox problems experienced by AEC and, subsequently Sheffield, with the early synchros?
I believe it was Classic Bus which carried an article about a catalogue of problems with the early AEC synchro boxes which Sheffield helped ACV to sort out. The OWE Roe/RegentIIIs, and possibly the 1953 RWBs, had crash boxes and all their synchromesh gearboxes were retrofitted.
The pre-select had been designed for the 9.6 engine in the RT; the crash was a pre-war box for the 7.7 engine. Mixing manual box and bigger engine took longer to sort out than expected. Even the giants with a reputation for quality could get it wrong; but they survived by eventually sorting things out.

David Oldfield

19/03/11 – 07:49

The OWE batches of Regent III delivered with Roe bodies in 1952 had 9613A chassis numbers ie constant mesh gearboxes as built. The PSV Circle notes that synchromesh gearboxes were fitted to these buses in 1953. The 1953 batch of RWA registered buses had 9613S chassis numbers ie synchromesh gearboxes as built.
The three Regal IV were withdrawn in 1968, ie 16 years service. The Olympics were withdrawn 1966/67/68 (2) ie 15,16,17 yrs of service. My recollection is that the Regals did relatively light duties (58 to Thorpe Hesley and 106 to Brookhouse Colliery – both Colliery/Works services – being typical). The Olympics were used latterly on the well loaded and hilly service 31 to Lower Walkley. probably due to CoF expiry dates Olympics 11 and 26 outlasted the rear entrance ‘crush loader’ Royal Tigers on this service. My notes at the beginning of 1968 show that at this time 26 was the oldest bus in the fleet and its last repaint was in December 1960 – ‘it looked rather shabby’. By comparison 11 (the ex Demonstrator) had been repainted in June 1966 and ‘had a full set of retrimmed seat cushions’.

Ian Wild

19/03/11 – 17:16

Thanks for clarification, Ian. I lived on the 31 until I was 5, when I moved to Greenhill. I do remember the Regal IVs being 58/Thorpe Hesley regulars.

David Oldfield

04/10/11 – 21:01

That AEC OWB 14 was a regular performer on route 40, Sheffield – Bakewell and was also used on the Bakewell school run via the Hope Valley, been on it many a time when I was at Lady Manners School 1953-56. I also recall another single decker RPA 221 which was a Surrey registration, but I can’t recall if it was a Leyland or AEC. Other AECs I remember on that route started with TWJ — reg at that time.

Chris Webb

05/10/11 – 06:38

Chris RPA 221 was an ex demonstrator Leyland Olympic, the registration a Surrey one, local to Weymann at Addlestone. The AECs you mention were the C fleet integral AEC/Park Royal Monocoaches

David Oldfield

London Transport – AEC Regal IV – MXX 21 – RF 379

London Transport - AEC Regal IV - MXX 21 - RF 379

London Transport
AEC Regal IV
MCW B41F

There were always a few places around London where red and green buses were seen together and this photo was taken at Uxbridge in 1974. Green RF 53 registration LYF 404 was a former Green Line vehicle, as shown by the twin headlights. Alongside is RF 379 registration MXX 21 whilst in the background is RF 406 registration MXX 294, which has survived into preservation. The RML hiding behind is probably about to start the long journey to Shepards Bush on the 207.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Tony Martin

17/10/13 – 006:57

Do we have a date(s) on these? I would guess 1953, but the twin headlamps didn’t come into vogue until later?

Joe

17/10/13 – 08:40

RF 53 wasn’t modernised into the form shown until 1967, so the picture must postdate that year.

Roger Cox

17/10/13 – 11:42

What would the emergency service be? Underground replacement, perhaps?

Geoff Kerr

18/10/13 – 17:10

My favourite, and the best, AEC single decker until the 6U3ZR Reliance. They accepted mid-life refurbishment and still exist in preservation 60 years on. [I know all of Rogers arguments about too many LTE buses in preservation, and LT practises – and I don’t necessarily disagree – but lets be happy that these gems survive even if we regret the passing of other types without the benefit of the preservation movement.]

David Oldfield

19/10/13 – 17:31

Tony’s caption says the photo was taken at Uxbridge, in 1974.

Pete Davies

19/10/13 – 17:32

The Uxbridge single deck routes lost their RF buses in favour of higher capacity double deckers in 1961-63, after the low bridge at West Drayton was modified. These routes got RFs back (in “one man operated” mode, which these seem to be) in January 1971.
Far more on red RFs at www.red-rf.com  
The destination display “Railway Emergency Service” was used on LT blinds until the 1970s when it was changed to “Special Railway Service” – this tended to be used for both planned and emergency rail closures.
I’m not sure we should read too much into it being shown here – it’s possible that someone had just not wound the blind far enough to show the full ‘Private’ display. The old Uxbridge garage was up the Denham Road, this bus may have been a substitute for a service bus, or being used for crew shuttle purposes.

Jon

31/12/13 – 07:20

I moved from London to Aylesbury Bucks in 1965 about 1972 my young son became a cub with our local group one day I was asked if I would like to come and see their ex London bus I said no thanks but after a few times I agreed being an ex London bus driver. When I saw it I said words to the effect where did you buy that rubbish his reply was it was only £320 I said did they pay you to take it away. It was ten different colours the windscreen was smashed there were no panels on either side the air doors wouldn’t work, no rails on the steps, the indicators were small bubbles front and back the switch was an old brown house light switch with a cloths peg to keep it central for off. I was hooked. I was a lorry driver so on Monday I went to our store at Hatfield then into the bus garage next door, just said the bus was for the scouts, they no longer had RF buses and the foreman told a fitter to give me every spare part that they had, he took an indicator switch of an RM gave me the ears then the chrome wheel nut covers and discs for the rear wheels then said that when I come next week they would have made up a brand new fog lamp for me this went on at every garage that I called at as far as Dunton Green, Thamesmede, Lewisham, Kingston, Hemel Hempstead gave me a gallon of Lincoln green paint and had a small tin of just enough duck egg blue for the window beading and so after two years of every evening and weekends the bus was put back as she should looked even with her old rear lights but for driving had a pair of light on the back from a DMs the problem with the doors was when I removed the head of the air compressor there was only one piston in it the other one was in bits in the sump, I found one in a scrapyard near Ongar when I got there the bus was just a chassis with the compressor hanging on one bolt I got it for a £1 so the vehicle was then complete they took it to Wales twice each time returning with body damage they then said that they could no longer afford to run it and asked me if I would sell it for them, I got a sale with a bus preservation group for £950 with all the spares and manuals, it later turned up with Dave English foreman at Luton bus garage and I was pleased to see that it is with several other RFs at Kentish Buses listed as original but not running it was RF197 MLL 584 I have photographs before and after which I will forward as soon as I sort them out. In the 1980s I gave all my railway books and hundreds of photographs and negatives of buses in London and all the RMs leaving Park Royal Vehicles.

Bix Curtis

31/12/13 – 12:05

Interesting story, Bix. It was definitely a “good deed” to run around for parts to get the bus back on the road for them and very satisfying that it went to a good home in the end. You should have a Scout badge for bus restoration!

Chris Hebbron

SMT – AEC Regal IV – JSF 149 – B 449

SMT - AEC Regal IV - JSF 149 - B 449

Scottish Motor Traction
1952
AEC Regal IV 9821E
Alexander C30F

SMT, who later became Eastern Scottish, were a regular sight in Newcastle, they shared several routes into Scotland with United, and this one is discharging its passengers at the drop off point in the Haymarket Bus Station. There were three different routes to Edinburgh, and two to Glasgow. Morning departures on the Edinburgh routes were United vehicles, with SMT covering the afternoons, and vice versa from the other end, and I think it was the same for the more direct route to Glasgow. However, one of the Glasgow routes was a very long drawn out affair, with a running time of over seven hours. If memory serves, the vehicles met a point which was roughly half way where a refreshment stop was taken, the crews would then swap vehicles and return to their start point, but the vehicles would carry on and return the following day. It was also the case that in the event of a breakdown, the other company would provide a replacement, so presumably an arrangement existed with the insurance which allowed the other companies crews to man the vehicles. They were in abundance in Scotland, but this type of Alexander body never caught on south of the border to the same extent as the later ‘Y’ types, although North Western did have a few. Personally, I thought they were not a million miles away from the Park Royal body of the period.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye

20/03/14 – 07:12

Although they eventually developed their own style, Alexanders did set out building clones – often under subcontract – of other companies’ designs (notably Leyland and Weymann). They did a PRV/Monocoach copy but I don’t know whether these Regal IVs were on PRV frames. In the recent Y type book it was pointed out that this style of flat windscreen lasted (on AL deckers) until the ’80s. The North Western Leopards – and the Reliances which preceded them were not strictly to this design at all. They were a standard BET design structure with this style windscreen grafted on to the front.[There were, I believe, others too – as well as “bog standard” BET bodies without a whiff of Alexander about the style.]

David Oldfield

20/03/14 – 17:40

Pseudo Willowbrook, perhaps?

Pete Davies

20/03/14 – 17:41

On the point of driver change over on the “long” Glasgow route, I have a feeling that the same thing happened at Penrith on the Manchester/Liverpool to Glasgow/Edinburgh services. Something similar happened on the X2/X60 group of interconnected routes: (Great Yarmouth)/ Nottingham/ Manchester/ Blackpool).

David Oldfield

22/03/14 – 08:30

On the subject of driver changes en-route when I became an express services driver at Southdown’s Eastbourne depot in 1970, a journey from Margate to Bournemouth on the South Coast Express service that passed through Eastbourne around midday with an East Kent driver who took his meal break there. The coach either an East Kent Reliance/Park Royal or a Royal Blue Bristol RE/ECW was then taken to Brighton by one of our drivers who handed it over to a Royal Blue driver who had just taken his meal break who then took it on to Bournemouth. The Eastbourne driver then took over the coach brought in by the Royal Blue driver which he then took back to Eastbourne to hand over to the East Kent driver after his meal break to take back to Margate thus all three drivers drove a coach from both East Kent and Royal Blue. This experience led me to prefer the Reliance over the RE and nothing ever persuaded me otherwise especially when accessing the underfloor lockers of the RE on a wet day

Diesel Dave

25/03/14 – 10:14

This is Prudhoe Place just south of the Haymarket Bus Station in Newcastle. The building in the background was a cinema (and if we could so what film was being advertised we could probably date the photo). Just to the right of the camera was the famous Mobile Canteen MC2 (and was there ever an MC1?). Buses that were going to lay over usually dropped-off passengers here and then parked on the other side of the stand, rear-end inwards. This was also the pick-up point for Tynemouth 5 and United 8 during the afternoon peak period until all New Coast Road buses moved to St Mary’s Place in the late 1960s.
The Edinburgh routes via Otterburn (9 later 508) and Wooler (15 later 510) were irregular. There was an Edinburgh SMT bus that left Edinburgh at about 09.00 for Newcastle via Otterburn and then returned via Wooler mid-afternoon. There was also an Edinburgh SMT bus that left Edinburgh at about 10.30 for Newcastle via Wooler and returned at 16.45 via Otterburn. Edinburgh crews worked both buses right through. There were only a couple of 5 minute stops en route.
The Edinburgh route via Berwick (12 later 505/6) was hourly south of Berwick and more or less hourly north of Berwick. There were only a couple of 5 minute stops en route. As far as I know United buses worked through to Edinburgh but usually had SMT crews north of Berwick. SMT buses worked through to Newcastle but usually had United crews south of Berwick. However some of the scheduling was quite complex: buses might meet and swap crews at Niddrie Cross Roads, just outside Edinburgh, to get the crew back to Berwick before the end of service.
The Glasgow route (14 later 515) was once a day in winter and twice a day in summer. It was very slow and had a 45 minute stop at Galashiels. The buses worked right through but met at Galashiels where the crews swapped over. The United crew was, latterly, from Whitley Bay. There were also summer Saturday express journeys, that took about 5 hours, on which the crews worked right through, and came back the same day. At Glasgow holiday period there were often lots of duplicates and crews from a variety of depots north and south of the border.
Scotland definitely had its own culture, which included labels on bus windscreens, as shown in this photo. Why it was normal, north of the border, to use labels to show the route and destination I never could work out. Were there too many destinations and route variations at each depot to include on one blind?

Paul Robson

25/03/14 – 15:48

Paul Robson makes mention of paper stickers on the windscreen for the service/destination. Surely this is preferable to showing ‘SERVICE’ or ‘DUPLICATE’ as mentioned in another thread which is on the go at the minute.
Good on yer Scottish Bus Group.

Stephen Howarth

27/03/14 – 06:53

At the old National Express/Shamrock and Rambler Coach Station (77 Holdenhurst Road) the toilets were situated at the rear of the booking hall.
The passageway had a huge rack (like a postal sorting rack for letters) that held yellow paper destination labels for literally all the served destinations in the South of England together with such labels as “On Hire To”.
I remember seeing one London label being held up (cheekily) by a hitchhiker on the Ringwood Sour Road.

David R

11/02/15 – 06:03

Newcastle services were run by SMT until 1964 under service nos 230, 231, (Berwick), 270 (Jedburgh) and 273 (Kelso) with other nos for services on these routes purely North of the Border. Glasgow – Newcastle/Whitley Bay was 252. Glasgow Scarborough was also a joint service on Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays with a night service from Glasgow on a Friday, returning North on Saturday night.

Mr Anon

17/12/15 – 17:00

I really must most strongly disagree with Alexander “having started building clones.” they built their first coachwork in 1921 a number of years before Park Royal were even formed; and while they were happy to build to another coachbuilder’s outline when required (a rather awful Park Royal look for SBG from 1955-7 or a rather old-fashioned Weymann outline for Glasgow in 1953-5) they built to their own too, and the Eastern Regal IV is entirely a product of Drip Road Stirling.
I’d contend the bus in the following  link is somewhat more imaginative and indeed stylish than any mid-1930’s product of NW10. www.flickr.com/photos/
The use of of the word clone in relation to Leyland bodies implies they were building to a Leyland outline to win custom; in fact they built utilities and postwar double decks to Leyland outline because Leyland body production had been halted by the government because Leyland was needed to make tanks; Alexander were in fact operating with Leyland’s blessing and full co-operation.
Leyland chose three bodybuilders for prototype Tiger Cubs, they were MCW, Saunders-Roe and Alexander, and when the coach version of the Tiger Cub was planned all of the Leyland prototypes including the one that lapped MIRA at 80mph were bodied by Alexander.
The bus prototype worked for Starks of Dunbar and then Londonderry & Lough Swilly Railway, still in service with the latter in 1975, not bad for a lightweight.
Alexander designs are I would contend more often copied than Alexander copied other designs.

Stephen Allcroft

19/12/15 – 06:59

Two further corrections: Contrary to David Oldfield the angled windscreen was available on R type double-deckers as late as 1999; secondly I got the start date of Alexander’s coachbuilding (initially at Camelon) a year early in the previous post, still Alexander were building bus and coach bodies in 1922 and Hall, Lewis only started in North West London two years later. Park Royal Vehicles was formed after Hall, Lewis’s liquidation by their major creditor in 1930; eight years after Alexander started.
Incidentally the Lewis family also owned Northern Counties Motor and Engineering Company Ltd.
PRV didn’t do an Alexander A-type copy but there were quite a few from Roe, which were done using PRV frames, and it Alexander’s design of double curvature windscreen was used on a number of otherwise standard Park Royal and Roe products.
Northern Counties of course copied the Panoramic J type for Yorkshire Traction.

Stephen Allcroft

London Transport – AEC Regal IV – MLL 971 – RF 334

London Transport - AEC Regal IV - MLL 971 - RF 334

London Transport
AEC Regal IV
MCW B41F

Here is another of the Uxbridge allocated RF buses, seen in the summer sun of 1971, the year in which UX garage saw the welcome return of these stalwart performers, having lost them previously in 1962 in favour of RT double deckers. RF 334, MLL 971 stands at Heathrow Central on route 223, in the close company of RT 4182, LYF 241, on route 140. I know not the identity of the bohemian gentleman who seems to be reflecting upon the sanity of someone wishing to photograph a bus. Tillingbourne operated five ex London Country RF buses between 1971 and 1973, RFs 233, 254, 595, 680 and 699, and these I drove at weekends. Acceleration from rest in second gear was rather sedate, and the cab was a bit restricted (the RF was 7ft 6ins wide) but the vehicle felt like a true thoroughbred. The RT and RM families suffered the derating of their engines to 115 bhp, but I believe that the RF retained full engine power, which, in the case of the 9.6 litre horizontal A219, was 120 bhp.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

11/12/14 – 06:39

I was once told by the owner of a preserved RF that, according to the drawings in his possession, they are actually only 7ft 4ins wide.

Peter Williamson