King Alfred Motor Services 1961 AEC Bridgemaster B3RA Park Royal H45/29R
This photo was taken at the Broadway Winchester where so many others were taken over the years by a great many other enthusiasts I believe that it was taken in the mid seventies. This bus was one of King Alfred’s second pair of AEC B3RA Bridgemasters with H45/29R bodies delivered in September 1961 the first pair being delivered in October 1959 followed in June1964 by a pair of Renowns both of which are preserved by FoKAB.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave
A full list of Bridgemaster codes can be seen here.
22/09/13 – 11:26
To the best of my knowledge, the AV590s in Sheffield’s Regent Vs and Bridgemasters didn’t pose too much of a problem – as was also the case with most RMs. [Was the problem with the AH590 (and AH470) the same as Leyland originally had with moving of sump and peripherals in order to put the engine on it’s side?] Yes Roger, why couldn’t they get it right? […..but neither did Bristol…..] Whatever the reason, re-reading Alan Townsin’s Blue Triangle, it almost seemed as if there was a self-imposed death wish with strategic planning at Southall – which ran straight into the arms of the grim reapers of Leyland. Why didn’t they develop a Bridgemaster height version of the RM? Why did they cave in to BET with the redesign from a classic to a classically dreadful design? Like Alan Townsin I am a sometimes critical lover of the Southall thoroughbreds – but I hold my head in despair when I see highly respected modern manufacturers who seem to revisit the same sorts of crass stupidity 50 years on!
David Oldfield
23/09/13 – 06:13
May I be allowed to say, or venture, or whisper that in its time the Bridgemaster was a fashionable design. Domey curves were out and the cantilever-looking front end was cute. What will our successors say about those curvy black glass bits today and as for the back end of the Borisbus…. all it needs is a dorsal fin!
Joe
23/09/13 – 08:53
Nice view, Dave. The bus doesn’t appear to have any of the Hants & Dorset features which were applied almost immediately when H&D took over KAMS in 1973, so this photo would have been taken, at the latest, mid April of that year. Thanks for posting.
Pete Davies
25/09/13 – 07:17
I have to agree with David about the Southall death-wish, but I take the opposite view of how it manifested itself. Mechanically there was a lot of Routemaster in the Bridgemaster, and that was what put some buyers off – particularly the integral construction, and even more particularly the lack of choice of bodywork that that entailed. The Routemaster could not be sold on the open market because it was too complicated and too expensive, so why build a lowheight version? As for styling, they had to capitulate to BET because BET was The Market. The number of municipalities needing lowheight double deckers was limited, so if they couldn’t sell the Bridgemaster to BET, it was hardly worth having developed it in the first place. What was really needed was a lowheight Regent V. That eventually happened in the form of the Renown, but as well as coming far too late, I have been told that even that was over-engineered.
Peter Williamson
25/09/13 – 18:26
All very true, Peter. Perhaps the Renown/Regent path should have explored from the start. Those who stuck with the old (Renown) rather than the new (Fleetline) were certainly loyal fans. Unfortunately, by that time (especially with deckers) AEC was a busted flush. Merged? I think not. The 6U3ZR Reliance was a seriously good coach – but it was out on a limb on its own. There were serious plans to offer the AV691 in the Bristol VR and the Daimler/Leyland Fleetline and the AH691 in the Bristol RE. Ulsterbus was interested in the latter. The bean counters of British Leyland put an end to those plans, just as they had to the FRM. [Dream on.]
David Oldfield
29/12/13 – 12:17
An unashamed plug, I know, but if you’re within striking distance of Winchester on New Year’s Day the biggest-ever King Alfred Running Day features among other delights the 1935 Albion Victor 20-seat coach AAA 756, whose return to Winchester was celebrated in April. Another reason to come: 2014 is to be the last Winchester New Year’s RD; it will be replaced by a smaller-scale event each April. Happy New Year to All.
Leicester City Transport 1961 AEC Bridgemaster B3RA Park Royal H45/31R
217 AJF Leicester City 217 was one of the first vehicles to be delivered in the new cream livery with three maroon bands. It was withdrawn from service in 1971, worked for other companies until 1998 when it was bought for preservation and is now owned by individual members of the Leicester Transport Heritage Trust. It originally had only 72 seats but an additional row was inserted in the upper deck in 1963. It has been fully operational since 2011. More information can be found at this link.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ken Jones
08/05/14 – 07:53
It just shows how even an ugly duckling like the Bridgemaster can be enhanced by a quality livery. Good to see it preserved and in running order.
Ian Wild
08/05/14 – 07:54
Isn’t this livery just much more dignified than the red/grey/white Leicester City Council corporate livery that came after? – we’ll paint our buses the same colour as our “bin waggons” because, presumably, we think our passengers are rubbish. When I first visited Leicester in 1984 the LCT operation had echoes of various conflicting past ages: Ultimate and Solomatic ticket machines; and, yes, conductor operation; but two-door buses abounded; and on some one man buses change was delivered down a chute from a change-giver situated by the driver’s left shoulder (Roger Cox – or indeed anybody living in Halifax late 60’s/early 70’s . . . or in fact in Leicester late 70’s-late 80’s! – will get the picture). LCT was the first time I saw drivers/conductors wearing flat-caps as a matter of course – now, around in First Leeds country, if I ever spot a driver wearing a cap, then the odds are in favour it being a non-uniform baseball cap. In how many respects was the Bridgemaster a low-height-cut-price-Routemaster-for-the-provinces? And what a bloody indulgence of LCT to buy a small number of buses they subsequently decided were non-standard (didn’t see that coming then!) and so dispose of prematurely . . . all on the backs of their rate-payers presumably.
Philip Rushworth
08/05/14 – 10:58
The Bridgemaster was an AEC/Park Royal integral model, but there the resemblance to the Routemaster stopped. Among the most obvious differences the Bridgemaster was only available with a manual gearbox, it did not have power steering, was a lowheight design and completely different in appearance!
Don McKeown
08/05/14 – 10:59
Phil They also bought AEC Renowns which also left early along with the non standard Daimler CSG6/30s bought in the early sixties. Many years ago Leeds bin wagons were a very similar shade to the buses while the lighting dept used blue and the direct works dept used grey. Then in the late sixties early seventies everything apart from the buses went bright red. In Lancaster the bus shelters and the dust carts are still using Trafalgar blue the colour used for the buses from 1974 to their demise. Perhaps they overstocked!
Chris Hough
08/05/14 – 10:59
It is said that following the loan of a Sheffield Transport bus, the general manager of Leicester was so impressed with the blue and cream livery that he decided to adorn his buses with a virtually identical scheme in maroon and cream. Details of the Sheffield bus escape me at present, but what excellent taste that man had!
John Darwent
08/05/14 – 11:45
Variations on a theme. DBC 189C was a H44/31F East Lancs bodied AEC Renown, new to Leicester City Transport in 1965. Around the mid to late 70’s. it was sold to Hunter of Seaton Delaval, and is pictured in service with them on the road between Earsdon and Seaton Delaval. Did it too start life in the rather smart version of the Leicester livery?
Ronnie Hoye
09/05/14 – 08:56
Ronnie. Yes. John. Could it have been one of Sheffield’s 519-524 batch of similar Bridgemasters? Sheffield never had any particular problems with either Regent Vs or Bridgemasters in their mountainous operating area – and all achieved a full working life (12/13 for Bridgemaster and 13-17 for Regent V).
David Oldfield
09/05/14 – 08:56
The previous Leicester livery was not unlike the Hunters livery with the window surrounds in cream and the rest in maroon.
Chris Hough
09/05/14 – 09:58
Photograph by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
David – May well have been a Sheffield Bridgemaster on loan. Pretty similar apart from opening top deck front windows. Go compare.
John Darwent
09/05/14 – 12:46
…..and as Ian said, at the top, what a difference a livery can make – just like on the Orion. Even 525, of the ugliest of PRV designs, looks good in STD livery – as it still does in preservation.
Question for all our experts out there. Recent reading has brought up an number of “forgotten” facts. One is the legislation requiring a downstairs emergency exit on 30′ long deckers. The Leicester Bridgemaster has one behind the driver’s cab, the “normal” position. Apart from those with platform doors – where the emergency exit was a door at the rear of the platform – only the Alexander Regent Vs of Sheffield had the additional emergency exit behind the driver. Why? Did the legislation come in during the course of 1960? STD’s Roe and Weymann Regent Vs arrived between January and April 1960. The Alexanders were the last to arrive, again in April.
David Oldfield
10/05/14 – 08:59
Leeds later 30 foot vehicles had an emergency window in the first bay on the offside rather like an upper deck emergency window
Chris Hough
10/05/14 – 08:59
Dont know for certain, David. By 1960 the NGT Group had entered the world of the Atlantean. The lower deck emergency exit was on the O/S between the rear axle and the engine. The only half cabs required to have an emergency exit on the lower deck were the SDO R/D Burlingham bodied PD3’s. They had a door on the back at the foot of the stairs, the Routemasters (O/S rear behind the axle, and the Ex East Yorkshire Renowns (centre rear). The Orion bodied PD3’s had the standard cut away section of the open platform which extended round the back, and allowed an escape route should the vehicle end up on its side.
Ronnie Hoye
10/05/14 – 08:59
The requirement for an additional emergency exit must have come in around 1959. The Leeds PD3s with Roe bodies didn’t have it but the tram replacement Daimlers in the reversed UA series did.
David Beilby
10/05/14 – 12:36
Thanks chaps. I was aware of the Leeds vehicles, Chris and David. Still anecdotal though. We’ve not pinned down a date, just more or less confirmed it by detection.
David Oldfield
11/05/14 – 08:21
There’s a small booklet that was produced by the Leicester Transport Heritage Trust in 2011 called “Maroon to Cream”, The Story of Leicester City Transport’s Livery Change, by Mike Greenwood, which details the revision to the Leicester livery and highlights the Sheffield connection; it’s a fascinating little booklet that is well worth a read.
Dave Careless
11/05/14 – 08:22
Off-subject though this may be, I query the random positioning of front number plates on buses, and whether they were perhaps not subject to he Construction and use Regulations by which cars and motorcycles were bound. Above we see Leicester Corp. Bridgemasters cast their plate high above the cab, under the destination indicator, BTC oft used a square plate slung the left under the cab, where the standard spot was at the base of the radiator – sometimes actually attached to the grille. The only two ‘lets’ which I know to have been permitted in commercials, have been the rear plate of pantechnicons mounted atop the roof at right, and London Transport bypassing the white and yellow plates prescribed for all other vehicles in GB, by continuing with white on black. These allowances must have been arranged by the most complex legal wrangling and alteration of otherwise immutable law. Thanks to all correspondents.who make this such a lively forum, with remarkable knowledge of the minutiae of omnibology and simply wonderful archive photographs, now saved for posterity by their exposure in OBP.
Victor Brumby
11/05/14 – 17:38
Leeds buses had a square registration plate affixed under the cab windscreen. However All the exposed radiator MCW Orion stock had a straight plate under the windscreen. The 60 all Leyland Titans had a transfer straight number plate under the cab window. The concealed radiator Daimler had a plate at the bottom of the tin front later Daimlers with Manchester style cowls reverted to the square cast plate. Later concealed Titans and Regents had their plates at the bottom of their tin fronts. All rear entrance buses had a square plate in the offside rear corner. These were usually painted. The last rear entrance Leeds buses 1966 AEC Regent had an illuminated plate over the rear platform window. All rear engined types had a plate at the bottom of the front dash positioned between the tow points. All rear engined deckers had a rear plate over the back window.
Chris Hough
12/05/14 – 08:34
Lincoln Corporation`s four Bridgemasters followed on from Leicester`s final batch by chassis nos. Does anyone know if they were cancelled by Leicester? Lincoln were wedded to Leyland/Roe products and went back to them for several years. I have always wondered if they bought them at a bargain price, particularly as they were in the same traffic area and maybe the general managers were good pals?
Steve Milner
12/05/14 – 08:40
Manchester had square plates under the cab window as radiators were exchanged from time to time. There is a photo in The Manchester Bus of a vehicle carrying two different registrations after Burlingham delivered the first batch of the 1958 PD2s with plates on the bottom of the radiator and a swap was done later with a radiator for a 1959 Orion bodied PD2 and the mechanic failed to remove the plate from the original vehicle which would , along with its new radiator, have received the standard square plate. This left the newer vehicle with a correct UNB registration and an incorrect TNA one. The second batch of 1958 PD2s received square plates prior to delivery after Burlingham were reminded of Manchester’s requirements. I don’t know of any hard and fast rules prior to the introduction of reflective plates, by which time, of course, front engined buses were being phased out by the manufacturers.
London Transport 1936 AEC 664T Metro-Cammell H40/30R
This representative of London’s once extensive trolleybus system is a London Transport class C2 AEC 664T (chassis number 168) with a Metro-Cammell H40/30R body. The 664T chassis design was a close relative of the six wheeled LT class Renown that the LPTB also operated in large numbers. CUL 260, fleet no. 260, arrived new on 2 July 1936, reputedly costing the sum of £2,286.3s.8d., and operated for its entire life out of Stonebridge Park depot (previously a tram “shed”) until its withdrawal on 27 August 1959. It was originally selected for preservation by London Transport, but then rejected in favour of “All Leyland” K2 type 1253, EXV 253, H40/30R, of 1938. Consequently, on 18 July 1962 CUL 260 was sold for scrap to the George Cohen 600 Group, but two enthusiasts, Tony Belton and Fred Ivey, stepped in literally at the last minute as the trolley was being hitched to the Cohen’s tow wagon at Clapham. They bought it, and arranged for its safe transport to secure premises elsewhere. This picture shows it being towed away from Clapham on 1 August 1962 over the John Rennie London Bridge of 1831, now “recreated” in Arizona on a concrete substructure. www.flickr.com/photos/ Alfred Smith of Smith’s Coaches, Reading, kindly allowed the storage of 260 at his Basingstoke Road depot for several years, and Tony Belton acquired Smith’s Duple bodied Dennis Lancet III KJH 900 for use as a tow vehicle to take the trolleybus about. Sadly, it seems that this Lancet no longer survives. In the heading photograph trolleybus 260 is seen at Madeira Drive, Brighton on 1 May 1966, when it won the award for the best restoration of the past year. Today 260 is resident at The East Anglia Transport Museum, Carlton Colville, Lowestoft.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
19/12/19 – 05:43
If any of the so called Experts of the period are still alive, I wonder if they now regret telling Trolleybus operators to get rid of them?
Ronnie Hoye
20/12/19 – 06:33
I recall you and I (and others) covering this subject, Ronnie, in another post, in 2012 no less! Link is: //www.old-bus-photos.co.uk/?p=14275
Chris Hebbron
28/12/19 – 06:14
I remember the London trolleybus being towed to Brighton in respect of the 1966 HCVC (now HCVS) London to Brighton Run.I recall the following year, two preserved trolleybuses were towed to Brighton for the run namely a Brighton one & a then newly restored Derby Corporation utility (both four wheelers). Sadly I do not think since 1967 a trolleybus has taken part in the annual Brighton run, I would love to be proved wrong with my statement!
Andrew Spriggs
11/02/20 – 07:01
My friend’s Dad was in the City of London Police, and he was told that the reason trolleybuses had to go from London was if there was a nuclear attack, diesel buses could disperse people much further because they weren’t restricted to the overhead wires. I bid the last trolleybus a tearful goodbye at Isleworth depot when London’s final trolley routes were closed.
Steve Bacon
11/02/20 – 13:34
I have never been a Londoner, and therefore don’t have a good grasp of the route system (present and ever-changing, or historical) but even to me, Hammersmith via Acton & Cricklewood (in that order) sounds geographically strange. Shouldn’t it be Hammersmith via Cricklewood (first) and Acton (second)? I could understand it with separate destination and routing blinds, but this is all on one display. Or is this another bit of esoteric London Transport lore to confuse us provincial types?!
Stephen Ford
15/02/20 – 06:28
Trolleybus route 660 ran from North Finchley via Finchley, Golders Green, Childs Hill, Cricklewood, Willesden Green, Craven Park Junction, Harlesden, Acton Vale and Ravenscourt Park to Hammersmith (and back again!) My high mileage memory, though not yet an MOT failure, has been rewardingly refreshed by the following site:- www.angelfire.com/
Portsmouth Corporation 1934 AEC 663T Metro Cammell H32/28R
This impressive beast is Portsmouth Corporation 215 an AEC663T/Metro-Cammell H32/28R trolleybus from 1934. Originally delivered as 15, it was last of a group of trolleybuses of different makes of 2 and 3-axled chassis (AEC, Sunbeam, Leyland and Karrier), with different electrics and bodies (Metro Cammell and English Electric) to evaluate the most suitable for the future fleet. It was re-numbered 215 in 1938 and lent to Pontypridd UDC, along with some of its other non-standard stable mates, from 1942-46. Shown here in its maroon/white with grey roof livery, straight from the paint shop at Eastney Depot in 1949, it was scrapped in 1952. As for the evaluation, although the main fleet centred on 2-axled AEC/BUT chassis, most (100) were bodied with non-evaluated Craven bodies, with a sprinkling (9) of English Electric and, postwar, (15) Burlingham bodies! One non-standard (No.1) and one Burlingham example (No.313) survive, but, sadly, not one Craven example, the mainstay of the trolleybus fleet. The whole network was swept away, in 1963, by Leyland/MCW Atlanteans. The unexpected one-year delay in delivery of these, caused by a disastrous fire at Addlestone, resulted in a very sad-looking trolleybus fleet and a great maintenance effort to keep the vehicles in one piece and capable of moving!
Photograph and Copy contributed by Chris Hebbron
10/02/11 – 17:12
Portsmouth Corporation had a wonderful livery displayed to perfection by their paint shop work on 215 in 1949. I visited Portsmouth for a day in 1963 to ride on the remaining routes and still recall the wonderful livery of the AEC 661T/Craven and BUT9611T/Burlingham trolleybuses even at this time. I wonder what decision criteria were used by the Portsmouth managers in 1934 to choose a 2 axle fleet rather than 3 axle fleet of trolleybuses. The 3 axle trolleybus was able to accept the higher starting forces from the traction motor but perhaps this was not recognised at the time. The single worm drive differential on a 2 axle trolleybus was always subjected to much greater forces than that on a motor bus. I do believe that 3 axle trolleybus fleets had less trouble with drive failures than those with 2 axle fleets and these were compounded with the longer length 2 axle types which appeared in 1954. I do believe Sunbeam addressed this single axle drive problem by introducing a double reduction epicyclic differential axle. I do believe these appeared in Walsall, Glasgow, Belfast and Bradford. Can this be confirmed? I do know these axles made a growling noise but nothing as loud as a Bradford AEC661T “Regen”.
Richard Fieldhouse
10/02/11 – 17:13
Thanks Chris for this wonderful shot of the 663T. The early PCT experimental fleet was quite fascinating, as, although not unique by any means, early trolleybus operators tended to purchase “experimental” fleets, and PCT`s such fleet was quite extensive! The MCCW bodies were obviously metal framed, whereas I believe, that the English Electric ones were composite. This gave them another feature to work out and study, as well as the chassis and equipment suppliers, giving them more reliable data before placing further orders. The subsequent 9 English Electric 661Ts were metal (I believe), as were the Cravens, but I am wondering why the change to Cravens was made. Was it simply cost based, or did PCT have similar problems to other operators of EEC metal bodies. Perhaps they had picked up rumours, and were “scared off”. Who knows? A fascinating post, for which many thanks.
John Whitaker
04/03/11 – 07:22
Lovely shot of this Portsmouth trolleybus, as repainted post-war after it’s war-time loan to Pontypridd UDC with the other three six-wheelers. Three of the four returned to service after loan, but one did not (212, an AEC 663T/EEC). Incidentally all the 15 mixed test vehicles and the following 9 AEC 661Ts did not have manoeuvring batteries and were all stored from 1940 through the war on wasteland at Hilsea (apart from the six-wheelers sent to Pontypridd). They were all returned to service from 1945 onwards. I have always been fascinated by the very mixed bag of trolleybuses taken as the experimental batch of 15 by Portsmouth. It was not an even spread of orders. Four AEC 2-axles, all with the same body make. Three Leyland 2-axles, also with the same body make. Then variety is brought in – Two Karrier 2-axle, each with a different body; Four Sunbeams, but two are 2-axle and two are 3-axle, and each pair has different bodywork, and two AEC 3-axle, also with different bodies. It doesn’t seem to give a fair spread to assessing the necessary qualities. And the choice of chassis make fell to the supplier of the highest quantity! (AEC). It seems to have been common for municipals to try out an experimental batch of trolleybuses in the 1930s. But the rest had more “equal” fleets of trial vehicles. Take Belfast, which in 1938 took pairs of 3-axle Crossleys, Guys, Karriers, Leylands, AECs, Daimlers and Sunbeams. The bodywork contracts weren’t so evenly spread, but then Harkness might be expected to corner the market there. Reading made do with just six in 1936, of which two were Sunbeam (but one I think was an ex-demonstrator, so that may have been an influence), and then one each of AEC, Guy, Leyland and Ransomes. All were two-axle and Park Royal bodied the lot. In spite of two Sunbeams the next bulk order went to AEC. Bournemouth had just four trial trolleybuses in 1933, one Sunbeam 3-axle, one AEC three-axle, one AEC two-axle, and one Thonycroft single-decker – a very odd choice. But the point is that, compared to Portsmouth, there is a “one of each” approach going on. Both of the AECs were converted to a motorbus (petrol)in 1936, and the next bulk orders went to Sunbeam. Walsall had two AEC and two Guy three-axle vehicles for their tests in 1931, again a fair share to trial – they then chose Sunbeam for their main orders! It’s difficult to imagine what kind of committee sat down with manufacturer’s catalogues and selected the chosen makes for these trials in each city. But we can make sense of those that decided “one of each” or “two of each” – but the Portsmouth mix seems to defy any of that kind of logic! But it’s what keeps us interested as observers of these events of the past. Incidentally I have never read any other account than that the Corporation chose Cravens for the batch of 76 plus the 30 Leyland TD4s because of obtaining appropriate delivery dates. No mention has been made of EEC build quality.
Michael Hampton
04/03/11 – 17:19
Interesting comments, observations and comparisons, Michael, much appreciated. As it happens, logical or not, their choice of bodywork for the main fleet, Cravens, was as sound as the bodies turned out to be, lasting around 25 years, although some re-building was necessary. I never realised that the non-standard vehicles were parked on wasteland for the duration. I also never realised that the other vehicles, especially the second batch, the 9 AEC 661T’s, lacked off-line manoeuvring ability. I always felt rather sad about them, living a rather shady life and always giving off an air of neglect – I’m not sure whether all of them were ever repainted. Considering the far less use they got, this was surprising. I always thought them the nicest looking of all the trolleys, even in comparison with the later Burlingham-bodied examples. The Pontypridd escapade fascinates me. Can you imagine the towing of these large six-wheel vehicles over to Bristol, over the Aust Ferry, then up the valley to Pontypridd, an estimated 150 miles without motorway or Severn bridges. Or, if the Aust Ferry wasn’t man for the job, a journey via Gloucester would have entailed a 190 mile slog! I daresay these journeys were not without incident!
Chris Hebbron
04/03/11 – 18:13
Don’t forget that every one of the Cravens trolleybuses would have been towed down the even greater distance from Sheffield! Towing trolleybuses would have been an everyday occurrence in those days – think about Glasgow’s with Weymann bodies!
David Beilby
06/03/11 – 08:13
And, of course, the chassis would have had to be towed to the bodybuilders first!
Chris Hebbron
06/03/11 – 09:16
Wartime loans fascinate me too Chris! Bournemouth trolleys running in Newcastle, Southend in Bradford, Hull in Pontypridd. Quite a few examples and some interesting pre-motorway routes to plan!
John Whitaker
06/03/11 – 11:52
You raise in my mind an interesting point, John. If Pompey sent its four six–wheelers to Pontypridd and Hull also sent some, what was the reason? AS a UDC (Urban District Council), it’s hard to believe it had a large fleet of vehicles, especially trolleybuses, and enemy action seems unlikely to be a significant cause, was it an upsurge in coal production and colliers, mainly impressed (and probably unimpressed!) Bevin Boys?
Chris Hebbron
07/03/11 – 08:33
Re. wartime loans of trolleybuses. Good point Chris. I can only assume that the resort towns had surplus vehicles in wartime, whereas the industrial areas needed extra capacity. Where that leaves Portsmouth, itself a prime target for the Luftwaffe, I do not know. Southsea is, I suppose, a resort, but Portsmouth as a whole would have had quite a lot of industrial activity apart from the Naval dockyard (?)
John Whitaker
07/03/11 – 08:37
The bus fleet in Pontypridd exploded (if I can use that term) during the war. The fleet strength in 1966 was 53 yet during the war they received 21 utility double-deckers and 2 unfrozen double-deckers. There were also eight utility trolleybuses which became the postwar fleet but they were really used to replace the pre-war fleet which it must be remembered was mainly single-deck EE vehicles which later moved to Cardiff, as well as releasing the loaned vehicles. There had been 8 LT ST-types on loan as well. This reflects the boom in demand during the war years, with local collieries and factories working flat out and therefore a greater need for transport. It’s probable that not only were more people travelling but also they were travelling further – there was certainly a lot of long distance travelling to the various Royal Ordnance Factories. The trolleybus route served very little directly and the way the traffic on that route expanded was probably more complex. The southern end of the route at Treforest was a long way from Treforest Trading Estate which was a major source of employment at the time and therefore would not have been used to take people there. Maritime Colliery in the centre of Pontypridd would have generated some traffic but its location in the centre of town means workers could have come from anywhere. Albion Colliery was the only large colliery directly served by the route and was at the northern terminus at Cilfynydd.
David Beilby
07/03/11 – 09:27
John – Your post triggered something else in the back of my mind about Bournemouth trolleybuses on war loan. No fewer than 18 of them were lent to London Transport between December 1940 and September 1942, partly being relieved by some new ones destined for South Africa being diverted to London. Braking-wise, they were not up to the job of London’s demands. They had to go to Ilford Depot because of their exceptional height – 15′ 11″! Ilford had no routes which went under low bridges.
Chris Hebbron
08/03/11 – 06:05
John W – CPPTD lent some 3-4 TSM buses to London around the Blitz for six months and a couple more locally towards the end of the war. They lost several buses when Eastney Bus Depot was bombed (including the sole AEC Regent they ever owned!). They then took in 10 Bedford OWBs and 9 Daimler CWA6’s in the middle of the war, but I would say that they were well positioned with trolleybuses. They also had some Leyland Lynxes surplus from sea front duties, but I don’t know if they were ever used in anger! So the fleet just about remained the same or slightly larger. This doesn’t really answer the question about pressure in maintaining services, though.
Thx, David B, for a wonderfully detailed picture about Ponypridd’s situation in the war. It goes to show how a war can distort situations and produce hotspots which, in normal times, would never arise. I’ve seen photos of LT ST’s all over the place in wartime, but never any in Pontypridd, not even by that ubiquitous bus photographer, DWK Jones!
Bradford Corporation Transport 1935 AEC 661T English Electric H32/26R
We all have our personal favourites as far as buses are concerned, and I have to confess that mine are, (or were), trolleybuses. Amongst my earliest memories were the late war years in Bradford, where I so clearly recall the sight, and sound, of Bradford’s “Regen” trolleybuses. These were AEC 661T types based at my home depot of Duckworth Lane, and were unlike any trolleybuses anywhere else, as they made a NOISE. Their mournful wail could be heard for miles about, especially when braking, and this was due to the double reduction rear axle and full regenerative control. How Bradfordians distinguished them from the Air Raid “all clear” signal I shall never know! They were new in 2 batches, in 1934 (597-617 KY 8200-8220) and 1935 (618-632 AAK 420-434), and carried early examples of English Electric metal framed bodies, which recent research has discovered, were extremely troublesome right from the off. English Electric metal bodies at that time did not benefit from the expertise demonstrated in the products of Metro Cammel. Having said that, the situation was not helped by tight and hilly schedules, the aforesaid unusual double reduction rear axles, and the fully regenerative control, such that these bodies were virtually shaken to bits after a troublesome 10 year life on Bradford’s granite setts. Failures were occurring at an alarming rate by the war years, and BCT received permission to rebody 9 of them with Brush utility bodies in 1944, during which process, the regenerative control was reduced. The remainder were rebodied by Northern Coachbuilders in 2 styles, between 1946 and 1949, the last of the English Electric all metal bodies being consigned to scrap in 1947, and these trolleybuses, with their composite bodies, then settled down to a “second life” which was to last into the 1960s. They still made plenty of noise in their new guise and being a regular rider to school, each one developed its own character for me, and they became firm friends. Sad, I know!
I attach a poor quality Brownie Box photo of 606, one of the Brush rebodies, and always my favourites, taken on a quiet 1953 Sunday morning. This photograph is full of nostalgia for me, especially as it was one of the last to carry the older Tattam livery with cream bands and rear dome. Happy Days! If only I could ride on one again at Sandtoft!
Photographs and Copy contributed by John Whitaker
Bus tickets issued by this operator can be viewed here.
Not sad at all – some vehicles, just like people, have characters and the more eccentric ones get recalled the most! How amazing that permission was given to re-body vehicles while the war was on, something I’ve not previously heard of. I always had a soft spot for the London United Tramways (later LT) A1 and A2 class ‘Diddler’ trolleybuses, unique and also frail bodywise!
Chris Hebbron
Fear not John, as Chris H rightly says there’s nothing sad in being fortunate enough to be able to recognise the characteristics of vehicles. It is a fact that, even in large batches of brand new ones, individual machines very quickly display their own particular “natures.” As a teenager on frequent visits to relations in South London I was also totally fascinated by the “Diddlers” on outings to Hampton Court and the area.
Chris Youhill
Thanks Chris H and Chris Y for the reassuring remarks about my deceased friends!! Good to know that other enthusiasts are just as moved as myself when referring to man-made inanimate objects !!
Thanks for comments about London “Diddlers” from Chris Y and Chris H. I too was fascinated by them, but never saw them “in the flesh”. I hold my very fleeting memories of Bradfords EEC 6 wheelers, and single deckers in the same light, as I can only just remember them. It would be great to hear about other trolleybus interests from fellow enthusiasts, as my enthusiasm is for anything old in the psv line, including trams!
But I wont go there!
John Whitaker
Chris Hebbron raises an interesting point re. re-bodying of vehicles during WW2. The MOWT (Ministry of War Transport) controlled all allocations of chassis and body manufacture, and supply to customers. I doubt whether operators had much say in most cases; Body builders were allocated orders in batches, and hence Pickering, for example, built small numbers of utility bodies in 1942/3 on unfrozen, and early Guy Arabs, (including a minority on Mk2 chassis), they disappeared again until late 1945, when they were allocated a contract for relaxed single deck utility bodies on Albion chassis, for Scottish operators. East Lancs were used for re-bodying only, several fleets receiving all metal bodies on reconditioned chassis (mainly AEC) to almost peacetime standard. Brush were unusual, but not unique, in being used for new and reconditioned chassis, viz the Bradford trolleybuses and early AEC Regents for Birmingham. Bradford had 10 AEC Regents with all metal English Electric bodies which dated from 1935/6, and these were just as worn out as their trolleybus cousins by 1944, such that 7 were given new East Lancs bodies that year. I intend to look at the English Electric situation as far as metal framed bodies are concerned, as there were other disasters, notably with a batch of TD3/TD3c buses for Burnley Colne and Nelson JTC. I will submit a post on the subject if there is sufficient interest.
John Whitaker
I was delighted to see the Bradford AEC 661T “Regens” 620 and 606 posted on this web site by my best friend John. These were my favourite group of trolleybuses as they made a loud noise and had regenerative braking. Over the last few years I have been doing research into the early years of these trolleybuses 597 to 632 built 1934/35. My findings have been published in the Journal of the Bradford Trolleybus Association “Trackless” 200 to 205 inc. and 211. I can confirm the double reduction differential rear axle drive and the fierce regenerative braking were the main contributory factors leading to the failure of their EEC metal-framed bodies. The noise and vibration made it impossible for passengers to have a conversation inside these trolleybuses when running at speed, such as from Springhead Road to Bell Dean Road on the Thornton route. This leads me to ponder why Bradford specified a double reduction differential drive when a single worm drive differential was working quietly and efficiently on a very similar AEC 661T/EEC in London, namely LTPB 63 delivered some months earlier.
Richard Fieldhouse
This site has certainly brought back some memories. I served an apprenticeship with the English Electric Co. at the Thornbury works in Bradford in the late 50’s. The Trolleybus motors kept the Traction Department busy for many years. I recall working on the motors in both production and refurbishment and for it’s output it was very compact, good for it’s purpose, but a pain to work on. A common fault with motors returned for Overhaul was the “Square Commutator” Not really square but appearing so due to abnormal wear on opposite sides. Caused it turned out by slightly eccentric brake drums on some vehicles resulting in the motors always stopping and starting at the same point in it’s rotation.
Phil Johnson
Amazing the sort of problems which crop up – I should think it required some thinking about to identify THAT problem!
Chris Hebbron
I found Phils’ comments and experience at the English Electric Co at Thornbury most interesting and wonder which type of trolleybus traction motors were being overhauled and who were the regular customers. Can I assume Bradford City Transport was a regular as it was a loyal supporter of English Electric traction equipment?
Richard Fieldhouse
19/04/11 – 19:20
In the comments on the page for Bradford Corporation AEC661T trolleybuses, some correspondents mention the LUT “Diddler” trolleybuses. In 1962 the last trolleybuses were withdrawn in London and living in a road near the last trolleybus route to close I took my 18 month old son to see the last trolleybus from Hammersmith to the depot at Fulwell. In the event the modern bus was preceded by a “Diddler” from the London Transport Museum decorated with bunting, etc. as for its opening day. Alas, my son does not recall the sight. For those of you who are interested, if you log on to the “You Tube” website and type in the Search Box “Twickenham Trolleybuses” (without the quotes) there is a film of the first day of operation of the diddlers taken in 1932. It is in black and white and, originally, was silent but a sound track of 1930’s band music has been added. If you look carefully you will notice that they do not have headlights but it was shortly afterwards at the insistence of the police that a single headlight was put in the centre of the panel replacing the radiator on a IC engined bus.
This photo of Bradford “Regen” 607 was taken in 1944 outside Duckworth Lane depot and shows this trolleybus in dark blue with war time white paint and headlamp masks. The overhead wiring has flash guards fitted on the points as a blackout precaution. Also present are two Bradford motor buses in khaki livery which did not apply to any of the trolleybuses in the fleet. The bus on the left is a 1939 Daimler COG6/English Electric Company and the bus on the right is a 1936 Daimler COG6/Weymann. Behind 607 there is a parked 1935 “Regen” in the “new blue” livery introduced by Bradford in 1942. “New blue” was the description used by the Bradford engineering staff during the early years of this light blue and cream livery which remained the standard in Bradford up to April 1972 when WYPTE took over all the Corporation fleets in West Yorkshire. From my research I have found that 607 had a serious front accident in late December 1935 and was rebuilt with a full width cab and seating reduced to 58. The control contactors and shunt resistors were relocated from the chassis side to the cab. All the “Regens” except 632 were originally built with a half cab and 60 seats but all were rebuilt to full cabs as 607 in 1937/38 and the seating reduced to 58. Perversely due to the cramped half cabs, the main circuit breakers were located on the roof trolley gantry and operated by levers in the drivers’ cab connected by Boden cables with steel wires. Overtime these steel wires extended and often broke rendering the trolleybus inert and an operational disaster. It is surprising that Bradford did not fit cab located circuit breakers at the time when the full bulkheads were fitted. This work however did start in 1942 for some “Regens” but was not done to 607 where the large boxes are the circuit breakers which can be seen on the roof. 607 was withdrawn for re-bodying in June 1945 and returned to service with a Northern Coachbuilders Mark 1 56 seat body in September 1946.
The photo of 620 now with a 1949 Northern Coachbuilders Mark 2 56 seat body shows it accelerating noisily up Godwin Street in Bradford City Centre in October 1952. In the background is a Brush bodied “Regen” on the Allerton service to the City Centre terminus. 620 still wears the glorious Tattam livery with cream bands, black beading and yellow lining. It soon lost its cream bands, was moved from Duckworth Lane depot to Thornbury in 1954 and then could be seen elsewhere in the City, Sadly 620 was withdrawn from service prematurely in April 1958 due to a serious accident when it skidded and overturned on the Clayton route. Other “Regens” with NCB bodies lasted until November 1962 having given 28 years service, albeit with a troubled number of early years until re-bodied in the forties. Happy days, these unique “Regens” with their wailing and humming sound will always remain etched in my mind.
Photographs and Copy contributed by Richard Fieldhouse
Bus tickets issued by this operator can be viewed here.
01/02/11 – 18:41
What a treat to see the 2 “Regen” Bradford trolleybuses, and thanks to Richard for the technical data concerning the circuit breakers and full cab rebuilding. It all goes to emphasise the points I made about the severe problems with these early EEC metal bodies, mentioned in my own “Regen” post. In their rebodied form, I spent hours travelling in them, and, like Richard, will never forget their distinctive wailing sound. Also of interest is the rear of the EEC bodied COG6. My recent article on English Electric Bus Bodies mentions the 1937 re-design, and the well rounded rear dome of this bus illustrates this very well. There were very few takers for this design. I can only think of TD5s at Barrow, and lowbridge “Regens” at Southend. Anyone know of any more? The previous design had a very upright dome as can be seen on the “new blue” AAK “Regen” to the left of 607. My home was about a mile and a Half from Duckworth Lane depot, shown here, and I was about five when the photo was taken!
John Whitaker
01/02/11 – 18:47
Fascinating submission. This is not the first one which mentions noisy trolleybuses, yet I cannot ever recall hearing more than the odd whine and swish from them, and I must have visited and travelled on them in some 10 towns which operated them. Any reason for the noise?. I must confess that noise would have given individuality to an otherwise usually rather bland form of travel. Even so, I was always impressed by their 0-60 acceleration and indeed used to ride on the last trolleybus from Croydon to Mitcham which went flat out across the common (about 60) silently, bar the singing of the poles/wires and the vibration from a far from new class of trolleys. On reflection, I wonder if I saw the girlfriend, who gave me this routine, for longer than I might, simply for the trolleybus experience!!
Chris Hebbron
02/02/11 – 06:14
Chris, I think the noise was generated by the double reduction gears in the rear axle differential that were straight cut teeth. Similar to tram motor gearing so a similar noise. I am pleased you found these Regens pictures interesting.
Richard Fieldhouse
05/02/11 – 16:07
Glasgow must have had very quiet trolleybuses. My dad can remember them being almost silent to pedestrians and they became known as ‘the silent death’. I hadn’t ever heard this mentioned anywhere else but reading Ken Houstin’s excellent ‘The Corporation Bus’ (Grosvenor House, £9.99 from Waterstones) lastnight I came across mention of one Dionne Warwick vs Glasgow Corporation. It seems the singer left the Glasgow Odeon after a concert using the back door on to West Nile Street. This being shrouded in thick fog, she didn’t hear or see a trolleybus and was struck by it and an out-of-court settlement smoothed things over!
Scott Anderson
29/04/11 – 06:49
One of the class lasted until 1965 having become trainer no. 060 in 1962. This was the former 597 with an NCB (mk2) body. I photographed it in this role outside Thornbury depot in July 1963. On withdrawal in 1965 it had achieved almost 31 years of service. No. 603 was repainted in the 1911 style livery to celebrate Bradford’s Golden Jubilee in 1961. According to Stanley King no. 603 attained 1 million miles in service on 24 April 1962.
Malcolm Wells
26/03/12 – 07:53
I have just put together a gallery to commemorate 40 years since the end of Bradford trolleybuses. This incorporates over 500 photos including a section on the ‘Regens’ which I hope will shed some new light on the issues they experienced. Richard Fieldhouse has given me some useful information which has helped to interpret the photos, a lot of which relate to the structure of the body. There is also route-by-route coverage. The gallery can be found at: //davidbeilby.zenfolio.com/ Hope you enjoy it!
David Beilby
26/03/12 – 13:21
David, the Bradford additions to your gallery are absolutely superb. Many thanks for your efforts, and particularly the EEC views, which to us Bradford enthusiasts are unbelievable. We would never have believed that such a wonderful archive even existed, let alone become available. The Regens have always been my main transport “love”, as I grew up with them, and have previously said on a 606 posting, they were “personal friends” in the way that true transport enthusiasts will readily understand.
John Whitaker
27/03/12 – 07:17
Thx, David B, for putting Bradford’s trolleybuses on your website. Interestingly, the range 597-632 is virtually identical to (2)16-(2)24 (and especially (2)24 in Portsmouth Corporation’s fleet. Bradford re-bodied them around the end of the war, but Pompey’s carried their original bodies until they were scrapped, mainly in the 1957-8 period. What was news to me were the five AEC ‘Q’ trolleybuses, presumably all with English Electric bodies, although whoever built the ‘Q’ (trolley)bus bodies, usually seemed to make them all look very similar. Bradford’s ‘Q’, 633, had a relatively short life (1934-1942). To withdraw a vehicle in mid-war would seem to indicate a really serious deficiency somewhere. The clue might lie with Southend’s ‘Q’ trolleybus No. 123, originally on hire from AEC Ltd., from 1934. It was rebuilt by Sunny Dawes in 1943 and again by Beale in 1945, finally being withdrawn in 1949. Intriguingly, Peter Gould’s website shows this vehicle as being a lowbridge example.
Chris Hebbron
27/03/12 – 15:47
Chris. Bradfords Regens were the first EEC metal framed trolleybus bodies. Like their BCN Leyland TD3 cousins, the bodies were literally shaken to pieces after 10 years, due to body weakness, cobbled streets, and the double reduction drive. EEC had learnt a few lessons by the time PCT received theirs, and there was a redesign in 1937, as exemplified by 635 etc in the BCPT fleet. the Q (“Queenie”, No 633) was sold to South Shields in 1942, where she ran until c.1950. She was non standard in Bradford, regarded as draughty, and there were problems with the front overhang. A MOWT directive instructed BCPT to sell earlier 6 wheelers, and 633, South Shields and Newcastle being the recipients in 1942, and 1945. Bradford had, of course, received 10 Sunbeam MF2s in 1942 under MOWT directive, which enabled these transactions to proceed. I refer to the “Joburghs”, 693-702. We could write paragraphs on the “Regens”, so I will leave it there!
John Whitaker
28/03/12 – 08:31
Thanks, John, for filling in the gaps. We tend to forget cobbled streets and the effect they had on vehicles of the time, and probably to a lesser extent now as well. I sometimes wonder if East End of London cobbles were a prime reason for London Transport’s chassisless bodies coming into service. Although one or two small orders had their weaknesses, most survived the punishment well, although a large maintenance workforce would have helped.
Chris Hebbron
28/03/12 – 18:23
It has always amazed me Chris, that the LPTB chassisless trolleys performed as well as they did, and that the concept was not followed up apart from, I suppose, the RM input. Interesting point! Re. Bradford’s Q trolley, I think an identical, or near identical body was fitted to the Halifax Motorbus Q. Have a look on David’s site. Most Q motorbuses had MCW bodies as did Bradford’s. As you say, Southend’s EEC Q was lowbridge, as were the earlier 661Ts! What a fascinating fleet that was! re. Portsmouth, I am assuming that their EE bodied 5 bay AEC 661T trolleys were metal framed, as I always assumed, perhaps wrongly, that they were. The earlier 6bay EEC bodies, and their 6 wheel equivalents were definitely composite, as the BCPT ones, delivered from November 1934, were definitely the first trolleys from EEC with metal framing.The Burnley C and N Titans were their first all metal motorbus bodies, and caused horrendous problems, as has been stated before. What a great hobby interest we share!!
John Whitaker
02/12/14 – 16:14
I always thought these Bradford Corporation AEC 661Ts 597 to 632 (built 1934/35) with double-reduction differential rear axle drives were unique. This belief was wrong as I have now found details in the recently published Portsmouth Trolleybus book by David R H Bowler that their AEC 661Ts 16 to 24 were also fitted with double-reduction drives and also made a loud noise when running. These Portsmouth trolleybuses with English Electric bodies were built in 1935 and followed the Bradford order and were similar in appearance. By 1936 I believe a worm drive with stronger bearings had emerged from AEC, no doubt due to London Transport influence, and future orders by Bradford and Portsmouth were for AEC 661Ts with worm drives which were much quieter in their operation.
Richard Fieldhouse
03/12/14 – 05:39
Nice to hear from you again, Richard. If you go to ‘More Pages’ on this website, then Old Bus Sounds, the first item is a Portsmouth trolleybus of the later type, but still with a noisy rear axle, albeit because it was worn, perhaps, near the end of its days! It’s certainly not a silent one! I confess that I never heard one of the 16-24 type, to my knowledge. They didn’t possess battery power movement and were usually relegated to peak time workings and were scrapped earlier than would otherwise have been the case. They also had a neglected air about them, with faded paintwork. Sad, because I always thought they had the most attractive bodies of all of Pompey’s trolleybus fleet.
Chris Hebbron
03/12/14 – 10:26
Many thanks Chris for your kind words and advice on the Bus Sound section for the sound of a Portsmouth AEC 661T/Craven trolleybus. I believe the General Manager Mr Ben Hall of Portsmouth was very wise to specify at a late stage Battery Traction availability for the large AEC 661T/Craven order. With the damage due to bombing during World War II, the trolleybuses in Portsmouth were still able to operate by using temporary turning points on battery power. Regarding trolleybus noise, this was also common in Bradford with some of their AEC 661Ts with worn worm drives adding to the “music”. It made every trolleybus seem to be a character. Interestingly the Karrier E4s (677 to 692; built 1938) used to make a more growling noise even when newly overhauled. Perhaps these were the bass section.
Portsmouth Corporation 1937 AEC 661T/English Electric Craven H26/26R
Portsmouth Corporation had 115 trolleybuses in its fleet. The first 15 (1934) were a motley collection of chassis/electrical equipment and bodies, four and six wheelers, bought for evaluation. The next nine (1935/36) were, to me, the most handsome of them all, were AEC/EE ones with English Electric bodies. Unable to move under their own power, they lived a shadowy life, latterly neglected and shabby. See here for a “smart” photo of one. The last 15 (301-315), BUT9611T, with Burlingham bodies, were the last delivered, in 1951, for a route extension. 294, from the third order, in the range (225-300), was the largest group delivered, in 1936/37. Amazingly, with not a Craven body appearing previously, these wore those bodies! They bore the brunt of the services and proved to be sound vehicles all round, although the ash bodies needed rebuilding during their 26/27 year lives. In this rare colour photograph, 294 (like the Leyland PD1A/Weymann bus I recently posted), is also crossing Guildhall Square on tennis racquet-shaped route 17/18 from Eastney to the Dockyard, 17 anti-clockwise and 18 clockwise. The destination would be changed at Dockyard and Eastney. This photo was taken on an early Summer”s evening in 1963, on the cusp of the system”s demise on 27th July 1963. 294 lasted to the end. Two trolleybuses have survived, but neither of them represents this range; a loss really, for I”m not aware of Craven using this body design for any other vehicles.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Chris Hebbron
Thank you Chris for another lovely Portsmouth photo of a very deserving type of trolleybus. The AEC 661T/Craven trolleybuses were the workhorses of the fleet and I have very fond memories of a visit to ride on them in 1963. I have always remembered the internal finish of the Portsmouth Cravens to be an excellent show of Civic pride. I do believe similar Craven bodies were built for Kingston -upon-Hull on Crossley TDD4 trolleybus chassis nos. 27 to 46 in 1938.
Richard Fieldhouse
08/01/12 – 16:22
The Cravens (full title Cravens Railway Carriage and Wagon Company Ltd) bore similarities to the twenty Cravens bodied Crossleys delivered to Hull in 1938. the majority entered service on 2 September 1938, eight lasting until 3 February 1962. There was an option for a further 54 bodies which was not taken up.
When clicking on the link to one of the batch of nine English Electric bodied AECs of 1935, a picture of No 24 is displayed. A previous picture on that site shows No 21 of the same batch. The contributor there notes that the electrical support structure on the roof is enclosed on No 24, but is open framed on pictures of the others in the batch. I suspect that the reason for this is that No 24 was exhibited at the 1935 Commercial Motor Show, and was built thus for that purpose. Although presumably delivered to Portsmouth after the Show, it did not enter service until April 1936. It became the last of the batch to survive, being withdrawn in 1958. As far as the Cravens-bodied stalwarts are concerned, they were what a Portsmouth trolleybus was expected to look like – just as an RM or RT represents London! No 237 reportedly survived in a Portsmouth scrapyard near the erstwhile airport for several years – possibly even into this century? But I have not heard whether it still survives, and if so whether it is accessible. No 313, a Burlingham bodied BUT of 1951 (Portsmouth’s last to run in service on 27 July 1963) is in fine fettle at Carlton Colville, I believe. No 201 (Portsmouth’s first numerically) has had a more chequered preservation career, first at Beaulieu Motor Museum, then back to Portsmouth, and ended up at the Milestones Museum in Basingstoke. About two years ago, it looked rather sorry for itself, and at my last visit early last year, it was not on display. I would hope that it is out of display for some smartening up work at the very least.
Michael Hampton
11/01/12 – 10:33
Thx, Michael, for the interesting titbit about 24 being in the 1935 Comm. Motor Show. You mention one Cravens survivor hanging on in Pompey somewhere and I believe another one did for a few years as a public convenience in Bristol – I think I saw a photo of it once, painted white. I saw 313 only in October, but it was in the ‘garage’ and I was unable to see anything other than an impeccable rear: it wasn’t running that day. Were these distinctive Burlingham bodies replicated on other contemporary (trolley)buses? I can’t recall any others, off-hand. And you’re so right about the Craven’s ones. The comprehensive and intensive system Pompey had, meant that a trolleybus was barely ever out of sight and the 75 Cravens ones seemed to total more like 200, always popping up. Wherever you went, there they were! Fratton Bridge was a complex junction for the overhead and I used to happily spend 20 mins watching the poles picking their way across the wires and frogs. The last (evening) journeys were still by trolleybus, even when the system officially closed down, and that was my last ride on a Cravens. Happy days!
Chris Hebbron
11/01/12 – 13:19
I always thought that Cravens bodies were full of character, regardless of operator or application. Having waxed lyrical in many discussions about how I loved the Cravens RTs in London I’ve usually found that I couldn’t convince the opposition – sad really, because I think that they are missing something very attractive in the five bay construction within the RT classic outline – a magical combination in my view.
Chris Youhill
11/01/12 – 17:08
I have a prejudice in favour of Cravens because they were from my home town (Sheffield) and provided many STD buses from the mid thirties until 1950. [At this point they left bus building until they bought East Lancs in 1964 – and also formed Neepsend Coachworks.] The last Cravens (1950 Regent IIIs)were among my favourites – and I thought amongst the most attractive of the immediate post war designs. They were almost identical to the RTs – but minus the “Londonisms”.
David Oldfield
12/01/12 – 06:01
I always liked the Cravens’ RT’s, too. They were nicer to look at, in all respects, save for the hunched back and, if I recall correctly, the emergency windows and lower rear window did not match up, either. Nevertheless, they made a good stab at making a pseudo-RT body from a standard design shell. Surprisingly, there are only two postings of Cravens’ bodied vehicles on this website, which should be rectified! Perhaps David could post a photo of the 1950 AEC Regent III’s he mentions. It would make an interesting exercise to compare them with the Londonised RT’s.
Chris Hebbron
12/01/12 – 06:07
Copyright P R Doughty
The latest comment by David Oldfield on the Portsmouth Cravens trolleybus has reminded me of this slide, taken by a friend of mine when we visited Sheffield in December 1966. I guess this is the batch he is mentioning
Bob Gell
12/01/12 – 06:05
Re above posting from Chris H, Here is a picture of the rather unfortunate Portsmouth ‘bus that ended it’s days in a rather unusual service role. It was used as such for many years, maybe around fifteen or even more! It was in use during 1961 and as far as I am aware it disappeared about 1980 //farm8.staticflickr.com/ No 313 has survived in fine condition and can be seen in running order here. //www.youtube.com/
Richard Leaman
12/01/12 – 10:38
Bob’s slide is most pleasing, and shows well the very attractive upper saloon front bay and roof dome which I’ve always found to be a particularly classic outline. Richard’s comparison of the two latter careers of the Portsmouth trolleybus are heart warming, and the visitors to Carlton Colville are obviously flushed with enthusiasm at the relaunch.
Chris Youhill
12/01/12 – 10:39
Thx, Bob, for the Sheffield bus photo, from which I can see something of the “RT”. Did these bodies have the hunched back that the “RT”s” possessed? And thx, Richard, for reassuring me that my memory of the “Ladies” trolleybus wasn”t faulty! I think we can say that preservation of it was not an option by this stage! And it was nice to see 313 in action, too. I was surprised to read that this vehicle, after being saved, went for scrap and was rescued a second time.
Chris Hebbron
12/01/12 – 10:41
Thanks, Bob. This is indeed the batch. [Strange how vehicles which spent most of their lives with grey roofs looked bald when repainted without it. Apparently this grey was called “smudge” – an STD concoction from mixing paint.] Put a London cab and London opening windows in and they are more or less identical styles. This vehicle was departing the small Bridge Street Bus Station for the borders of Ecclesfield which, at the time, was actually in the West Riding. [It became part of Sheffield after the 1974 Government reorganisation.] Bearing in mind the common 13 year life of STD buses, 1966 was very late for a bus of 1949/50 vintage, but occasionally vehicles reached 16 – and exceptionally 20 – years service. Please note, in the distance, one of the Neepsend bodies I mentioned earlier. STD had about 40 on the atrocious PDR1/2 Atlantean between 1964 and 1966.
David Oldfield
13/01/12 – 07:21
Chris Y, Chris H, David – Thanks for your kind comments; pleased to help. David, thank you also for identifying the location, which I wasn’t sure of. A nice co incidence getting two Sheffield bodied vehicles on the same shot.
Bob Gell
24/01/12 – 05:59
Michael Hampton recalls that No. 237 languished in a Pompey scrapyard for many years. I”ve found a photo of it on David Bradley”s excellent website, having just arrived at Jordans Scrapyard and it can be found at the link below. Apparently, it survived until about 2000 and a Sheffield group of Craven”s enthusiasts looked into saving it, but it was too far gone. The majority finished up in a quarry on Portsdown Hill where a cutting was made some years ago to bring the A3(M) through to join the A/M27. David Bradley”s website //www.trolleybus.net/
Chris Hebbron
25/01/12 – 05:13
Here”s a three minute “collage” of Portsmouth trolleybuses, both Craven and Burlingham-bodied types, along with glimpses of Southdown and Corporation buses, especially some Bedford OWB”s. The first scene shows the brilliant acceleration, (driver showing off?) despite the sounds of old age, creating a tram-like whine. You can also hear the “twang” of the overhead wires at one point, something I”d forgotten about. See HERE: //www.youtube.com
Chris Hebbron
07/02/12 – 16:37
Thanks to Chris H for more info and the links to other sites re the one that ended up in a “convenient place” in Bristol, and the evocative clip of several swishing their way through Portsmouth streets. Many places still recognisable, but with subtle (and not some not so subtle) changes. In an earlier contribution (11th Jan), I mentioned that pioneer trolley 201 (AEC/EE) had been in a rather down-at-heel condition at the Milestones Museum in Basingstoke, and had disappeared from there at my last visit. A friend handed me a cutting from a recent local paper (The News, Jan 31, 2012) which has a few paragraphs reminiscing about the trolleybuses. Most importantly, it states that from June 2009, 201 has been in the care of the City of Portsmouth Preserved Transport Depot, at Portchester (nr Fareham, Hants). So it’s good to know that it’s disappearance from Basingstoke is not sinister, and that it’s still being looked after.
Michael Hampton
08/02/12 – 06:21
That’s good news, Michael. I would think that it’s in much the same state as the London ‘Diddler’ by now – delicate!
Chris Hebbron
28/04/12 – 07:57
As a Sheffielder I well remember the Cravens batch of AECs. I thought they had nice simple clean lines. Cravens later effort on the only Bedford ever in the Sheffield fleets, number 11 KWA 811D was an ugly beast by comparison. What a shame that no Sheffield Cravens Regents were ever preserved.
Les Dickinson
28/04/12 – 08:54
Oh how I agree with everything you say, Les.
David Oldfield
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
15/10/12 – 07:41
Recent pics of Trolleybus 201 can be found here www.cpptd.co.uk
London Passenger Transport Board 1937 AEC Regent O661 London Transport Chiswick H30/26
The STL – the letters stand, rather confusingly, for “Short T Long” – was introduced into London area service firstly by Thomas Tilling in October 1932 and then by the London General Omnibus Company in January 1933. The STL Regent then became the standard double decker for the new London Passenger Transport Board which came into being on 1 July 1933. The chassis was the latest version of the AEC Regent which took advantage of new regulations that allowed for the extension of the overall length from 25ft to 26ft on a wheelbase of 16ft 3ins, and an increase in the rear axle loading from 9½ to 10 tons. The LPTB STL class then reached a total of 2647 by the commencement of war in 1939, and a further 34 unfrozen chassis were added from the end of 1941. Twenty more buses complemented the STL class in 1946, but these were very different beasts from the LPTB specification, being standard post war AEC Regent II machines with provincial style Weymann bodywork. An example of which can be seen here The STL class underwent several specification changes over its production run and subsequently in service – engine changes (petrol/indirect injection diesel/direct injection diesel) and many bodywork swaps, some arising from the attrition of wartime. STL 2093, DLU 92, seen above during the HCVC Brighton rally of May 1971, was a 1937 chassis powered by the AEC A171 indirect injection 7.58 litre diesel driving through the AEC D132 four speed spring operated preselector gearbox. It was initially bodied by Park Royal, but, being damaged in an air raid, it was sent to Birmingham City Transport for repair in 1944. By 1949 the body was deemed past further use and it was scrapped in February of that year. STL 2093 then received the Chiswick built body from 1939 vintage STL 2570, the chassis of which was then selected to join the expensive and ultimately fruitless SRT conversion programme, under which newer STL chassis were “upgraded” to carry the heavier RT bodywork. Sadly, not only were the SRTs under powered but, more seriously, they couldn’t stop, and the whole wasteful exercise was abandoned ignominiously. This OBP entry contains comments on the SRT debacle. www.old-bus-photos.co.uk/ Meanwhile, now carrying its Chiswick body, STL 2093 soldiered on, even seeing a short spell during 1949 as a Green Line coach on route 703 at Swanley, until its withdrawal from passenger service in 1954 along with the rest of the pre-war/wartime STL class. It was then sold in 1955 to Reliance Services of Newbury who in turn passed it on to a private owner for preservation in May 1958. This was Dennis John Cowing, a chemistry master (and transport enthusiast) at Selhurst Grammar School in Croydon, a master contemporary with my own attendance in a less elevated capacity at that establishment. Mr Cowing rallied the bus for many years and he is driving it in the 1971 picture, but, by 1976, the structure of the vehicle had degenerated alarmingly and it passed into the ownership of Prince Marshall for full restoration. That has since proved to be a mammoth undertaking, currently in the hands of the former Cobham, now Brooklands Museum, where it has more recently been displayed as a bus victim of the blitz. www.londonbusmuseum.com/
I have gleaned information from various sources for this note, but, as ever, Ian’s Bus Stop has been invaluable.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
26/03/20 – 06:43
One of my favourite buses, in roof-box form, along with the Bluebird LT’s. A shot which brings out the best of its design and in a condition which suggests it’s only been on the road for a few weeks after delivery to LT. Only the parked Ford 105E gives the game away! Yours, Roger? My last glimpse of a working STL was in June 1955. When waiting at traffic lights, one passed across me. It must have been a garage hack on one of its last journeys.
Chris Hebbron
29/04/20 – 06:19
This bit of Pathe newsreel, taken in 1946, includes shots of many LT types including STLs. I was surprised that so many horse drawn vehicles were still extant and also by the number of private vehicles on the road in addition to London taxis in a time of petrol rationing. Some of the pedestrian behaviour is decidedly death dicing. www.youtube.com/watch?
Roger Cox
30/04/20 – 06:03
A wonderful piece of film there Roger with a fascinating array of buses but strangely, given the date of 1946, I spotted only one utility, GYE 51. Were utilities kept off central London routes to any extent?
Chris Barker
02/05/20 – 06:36
A real cornucopia of LTs (one open staircase, with half its windows still boarded up), STs, pre-war STDs, STLs all still with their white discs on the back, and, surprise, surprise, the lone surviving TF9, on a ‘SEEING LONDON TOUR’ and still in its pre-war livery.T wo ex-army lorries, one a 3 ton Bedford OY model, which I recall as being ubiquitous post-war. Very pleasurable to watch – thanks Roger.
Chris Hebbron
03/05/20 – 06:21
Well spotted, Chris B. As Chris H can confirm, GYE 51 was Brush highbridge H30/26R bodied Daimler CWA6 D62, allocated to Merton garage. Pretty certainly it is seen here on route 88, Acton Green – Clapham Common – Mitcham which did run through central London via Marble Arch and Parliament Square. That route is reputed to have given rise in Victorian times to the term, “The Man on the Clapham Omnibus”. The Daimlers were based at Merton and Sutton garages, apart from a brief period when a few were painted green and allocated to Romford for the reintroduced Green Line routes from Aldgate. The wartime London Bristol K types, the K5Gs were later converted with AEC engines to conform with the later K6A batch, were all allocated to Hanwell. The Guy Arabs operated mainly in eastern and northern sides of London, but Victoria garage had an allocation along with its Leyland TD7 unfrozen utilty bodied buses. The heavy 5LW powered Guys, with their ‘back to front’ crash gearboxes and rather ponderous clutches were not popular with London drivers, but the TD7s were truly detested at Victoria owing to their high gearing and the heavy engine flywheel designed to damp out rock from the flexible engine mountings. This resulted in a requirement to wait excessively for the revs to die for upward gear changes, and keeping time with the type was nigh impossible. In practice, those TD7 mountings were unreliably weak, and many other operators bolted them up solid. The whole exercise was a bit pointless anyway since the rigid mountings of the TD5 were entirely adequate for the smooth running 8.6 litre Leyland engine. Those TD7s were the first wartime buses to be sold off by London Transport, when they all went for scrap. The appearance of private hire TF9 in the film is remarkable as, by 1946, it was unique, its fellows having been destroyed in October 1940 by enemy action. The prototype TF1 did survive the war but was sold off early in 1946. The Green Line TF fleet was withdrawn and sold by 1953.
Roger Cox
03/05/20 – 06:22
Chris Barker – During my working time in London from 1951 to 1956, I worked in Shaftesbury Avenue and would often walk around the whole West End, especially Regent Street, Piccadilly Circus, Haymarket, Trafalgar Square and although I never saw any Utility G’s (Guys), there were their cousins, the utility D’s (Daimlers) who went up these roads. They worked the 88 route, which went from Clapham Common (Old Town) to Shepherds Bush. These D’s worked out of Merton Garage. Other routes they operated on were the 77/77A, all going through Westminster, terminating at Kings Cross, plus the 137 going through Knightsbridge and Oxford Circus. I seem to recall that most of the G’s were garaged in East London, but I never recall seeing any around Holborn or the City. Others will probably help on that score. The following link maybe of interest London Transport – Daimler CWA6 “GXV 785“ D 54
Chris Hebbron
04/05/20 – 05:49
One wonders why the unfrozen STD TD7s were ever allocated to Central London. They’d have been more suited to Country Area, or at least to less challenging Central Area routes.
Chris Hebbron
31/07/20 – 09:36
GYE 51 would pass to Belfast Corporation in December 1953 becoming No.467. It would be rebodied with a new Harkness metal framed body in 1955 and would serve until 1970.
Bill Headley
01/08/20 – 06:27
The earliest of the Highbridge Daimlers were delivered to LPTB in August 1944, the era of V1 and V2 bombings, but not one of them suffered from this German onslaught. Ironically, a few of these went to Belfast, and a couple of them were destroyed in the early days of the ‘Troubles’. Fortunately, this was from the mid-1960s, near the end of their service lives.
Please can you help me to identify this coach. The photo has some clues: 1. Birmingham registered 2. Operated by Flights of Birmingham 3. Hired to Aston Villa Football Club The double decker behind might suggest some soccer activity in the making. Perhaps World Cup 1966?
Peter Smith
08/05/15 – 08:49
The coach mentioned is presently in private preservation in West Yorkshire – see Classic Connections.org.uk website.
[Administrator note: The link to the Classic Connections website is no longer active. 18 August 2024]
Chris Youhill
08/05/15 – 17:37
The picture is much too late for the 1966 World Cup. The double-decker behind is a Leyland PD2 or PD3 in the colours of Guide Friday, and this firm was not in existence back then. I don’t know when it started, but my hunch is that it would be the 1980s. If, as Chris says, this coach is now preserved, then this picture shows it in preservation, but the Guide Friday bus could be in active service or in preservation itself – maybe others will know. City Sightseeing (started 1998/99) took over Guide Friday in 2002.
Michael Hampton
09/05/15 – 07:06
Something from the back of my memory brings to mind that Guide Friday operated some ex Leicester City Transport Leyland PD3A deckers possibly containing registrations in one of the ‘JF’ series issued by Leicester. In its formative days Guide Friday began in Stratford-upon-Avon and I wonder if the photo was taken at their Stratford premises.
David Slater
09/05/15 – 07:07
This picture above was taken in the Aston Manor Museum in Witton – the Old Tram Sheds that were – the Museum has moved but the Seagull remains in their custody/care.
As a point of interest the Coach has been modelled by Gorgi as a limited edition (2200 produced) catalogue No OM 40301.
Nigel Edwards
10/05/15 – 07:17
The ex-Leicester open topper is 264 ERY. This was Guide Friday’s first bus and ran from 1978 until 2000. It is now preserved.
Dave Farrier
10/05/15 – 07:18
Veering a bit off-piste, the open-top decker parked alongside appears to be the ex_Leicester PD3 264 ERY, still in active preservation as part of the Leicester Transport Heritage Trust fleet, and it was active at the recent LTHT/GCR event at Quorn station. see https://ltht.org.uk/264-ery/ The location in the picture looks to me like the old Aston Manor site.
Rob Hancock
12/05/15 – 06:54
The picture showing the Burlingham centre entrance coach, registration TOB 377, was new to Flights of Birmingham. WM TOB 377 AEC Reliance MU3RV 793 Burlingham 5928 C37C New 3/56 and may have been rebodied by Burlingham in 1958. Flights coaches was a well known coach operator from Birmingham in their cream with black livery, which became Flights-Hallmark in 2005. Flights liked to have registration numbers ending with lucky number 7. A list of vehicles can be found at www.buslistsontheweb and search owner flight.
Ron Mesure
31/05/15 – 07:05
Further to my comments earlier this month, I have found a website on the history and restoration of TOB 377 which was bought back by Flights for preservation in 1996 after a long life in Norfolk. Its football reference is valid as it claims it to have been the team coach for Aston Villa in 1957 for the Wembley Cup Final, beating Manchester United 2-1. This can be found on “classicconnections.org” under the fleetlist heading. It does seem to have been rebodied, new in 3/56 with body Burlingham Seagull Mk2 C37C body number 5928 on AEC Reliance MU3RV 793 and now is listed with body number 6569? This was new on Wallace Arnold 8340 U with a different styled Burlingham Seagull Mk3 C41F bodywork on Leyland PSUC1/2, (see flickr photos 8340 U to compare styles) can a change of body be verified as 8340 U is still current preserved with Tom Goodwin of Carlton?
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
