Potteries Motor Traction 1961 AEC Reliance Alexander B45F
The Reliance in the snow above was being driven by myself on route 64 Newcastle under Lyme to Market Drayton on the A53 road just south of Loggerheads, traffic in front was getting stuck on a hill ahead of us called Hennel Brooke. The AEC’s were delivered in 1961 there was 25 of them all 45 seaterswith Alexander bodywork built to BET federation specification, they were all withdrawn in 1976. They were the first OMO buses to operate with PMT, and yes we did eventually reach our destination. They were a very pleasant bus to drive having a top speed of about 52 mph with a 5 speed gearbox powered by the AEC 470 engine. Bus number SN886 of this batch was “Tuned” to operate a service along the M6 motorway to Stafford from Newcastle under Lyme. It was not that much faster than the rest but it did have a good exhaust sound, just like the older Reliances with a crackling exhaust and a whistle when going downhill with your foot off the gas.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Michael Crofts
21/02/11 – 06:28
Newcastle was the first depot to have OMO single deckers and SN882 was one of the original conversions for the highly rural Newcastle Area services. It looks to have a smaller PMT logo on the front panel dating the photo post 1968 but has not yet had the destination display altered to a final destination with triple route number below. SN882 was one of a batch of 25 which were the first Alexander bodies for PMT leading to further orders for the second and third batch of Fleetlines followed by batches of Y type dual purpose bodies on both 8U2R (coil spring) and 6U2R (leaf spring) Reliance 691s. The Reliance 470s like SN882 had continual cylinder head gasket problems which led to instant cold heaters and demisters due to air locking and also had reliability issues with the hydraulically operated clutch mechanisms. The Alexander bodied 470s always seemed a bit flimsy to me compared with the earlier Weymann bodied examples.
In 1958, Boddy’s Motors (John Boddy & Son) purchased a trio of AEC Reliances type MU3RV, which were bodied by Yeates with their Europa bodywork. There was seating for 41 passengers and was fitted with front entrance and exit doors. The first two VBT 191/2, were to service in May, 1958, whilst the third VBT 893 entered service the following month. I am unaware what happened to these three upon withdrawal, but one, VBT 191, survived into preservation. It had chassis number 823 and Yeates body number 658. The photograph shows this vehicle at the Harrogate end of the Trans-Pennine Rally, which commenced in Manchester. It is seen on the Stray, Harrogate on Sunday August, 1985.
191 was sold to Yeates at there co Durham branch supposedly for preservation 192 was stripped of all useful mechanical and body trim and the shell went to a local haulage contractor as a store shed at a yard at the side of the railway at flambro until it was broken up when a new owner took over. 893 was sold earlier than the other two I believe to a Lancs operator. 191 appeared later with Mathers Motors in the Scottish Borders, it then went to Skegness and I understand it is now with Fowlers in Lincs. They were very pleasant coaches to drive and the exhaust brakes made a loud noise when coming to a stop every one turned round to see what was coming
Ken Wragg
19/06/11 – 20:52
Kens notes reminded me that I managed to get a photo of VBT 192 at Askham Caravan Transport in Flamborough on 14/9/82 a sad end to a fine coach.
YXD 12 was another sad end this fine vehicle ended up as a club house at a Hunmanby race track seen in 26/10/87 see below
Mike Davies
20/06/11 – 15:03
Mike, was YXD 12 a Duple Britannia ?? I think it looks like one – Wallace Arnold had just three of those, 4324/5/6 UA and I thought they were beautiful. On the East Yorkshire theme, I once took 4324 empty to Hull, had B & B in the City Centre, and then took a full load to Southend Airport next day (one of my favourite runs) to hop across to the Continent for their holidays in one of the Channel Airways Dakotas. Wallace Arnold had a huge programme based on Southend Airport in those adventurous days in the early 1960s.
Chris Youhill
21/06/11 – 07:41
YXD 12 was an AEC with duple Britannia body. with 40 seats only 4 across the back seat however it was possible to get 5 on the back and very often 1 on the courier seat this was a very nice coach to drive with air brakes
Ken Wragg
21/06/11 – 07:43
Yes, Chris, it’s the final manifestation of the Britannia before the Continental – and subsequently the Commander – took over as the AEC and Leyland body by Duple. I agree with you about its looks.
David Oldfield
21/06/11 – 07:47
Re VBT 191..Tonight I did a DVLA check and found that it is not listed on their records so at best is not currently taxed unless it has lost it’s original registration number. I then researched the website of Fowlers Travel and found that they have a complete list of every coach they have had since they started with details of when bought, date of disposal and to whom it was sold or scrapped. Sadly, the AEC is not listed as far as I can see. You can view the list here.. It will be a real shame if the coach fell into poor hands after being preserved.
Richard Leaman
21/06/11 – 16:03
Yes Chris YXD 12 was Duple Britannia, interestingly Hoods of Wold Newton, which is not to far from Bridlington had YXD 14 I don’t remember seeing it, and have not got a photo.
Another ex Boddys vehicle which I managed to photograph was RN 8672 in use as a store shed at Octon Lodge Farm, Octon. this has since gone on to one of the Ribble preservation groups I think.
Mike Davies
22/06/11 – 07:10
VBT 191 is alive and well and appeared at this year’s UK Coach Rally at Peterborough.
MikeB
22/06/11 – 07:13
If you Google the registration VBT 191, it comes up with a very nice photo on Flickr of VBT 191 at the UK Coach Rally in April of this year. The Fowlers listing given by Richard seems to omit vehicles they have acquired for preservation, as they also have 966 RVO, a Yeates bodied VAL new to Barton Transport.
Bob Gell
22/06/11 – 13:17
Thank you Mike and Bob. Good news indeed but puzzling that it is not found on the DVLA records which is why I feared it might be lost. Maybe there has been a change in it’s details recently and been temporarily off record as happened to a car I sold last year.
Richard Leaman
26/06/11 – 08:09
VBT 191 is on the DVLA website-classed as a Leyland AEC VBT 893 left the fleet as early as July 1966, and passed to an operator called Davies of Halewood.
Further to Keith Eastons earlier post-I have a fleet list for Annfield in JPEG format-probably (certainly!) incomplete.
David Hick
26/06/11 – 11:27
Such a fleet list, complete or otherwise, would be most interesting to we older “Bridophiles” David if there is any possibility please.
Chris Youhill
27/06/11 – 07:09
Davies of Halewood, eh? The last ever delivery of a RELH to an independent operator was to them. [The previous such – and the first – was to Flights.]
David Oldfield
29/06/11 – 14:37
Hello just want say I have a great interest in the Willlamsons coaches and am trying to find out as much info as possible as my family are related to them; my nana was a Williamson her Grandad was Reuben Williamson . She would recall living in Brid among all the coaches . she told us they owned horse drawn coaches before the motorised vehicles in Havelock Crescent . She moved away from Brid in her late teens and sadly passed away 2 weeks ago aged 96. This why it is of great interest to me…
Anon
01/07/11 – 05:34
RWF 785 , another former Boddy coach, can be found here: //www.flickr.com/
David Hick
01/07/11 – 09:25
Hello Anon, and firstly we’re very sorry to hear of your Grandma’s passing away. I’m not good on “family trees”, but would the lady’s father possibly have been Tim Williamson ??, as he was the son of Reuben and ran the business till the sale to EYMS. My Grandma and my Aunt knew Tim in the old days – they ran a very small B & B in St. Stephen Road.
Chris Youhill
08/10/11 – 06:18
…all this talk of Boddy’s etc. sent me to my ticket collection of which I have ‘BODDY’S MOTOR TOURS’ at 101 Promenade and 10 Hilderthorpe Road BRIDLINGTON. – also (to make Mr. Youhill dribble are scans I have done (Front and Back) scans of his ‘beloved’ WILLIMSON’S punch tickets showing ‘Havelock Crescent’ on reverse self message.
“Coming Soon” as they say to the Old Bus Tickets web site.
Peter Abel
08/10/11 – 17:23
Now then Peter A, a very good job I had a bib to hand as I’m already dribbling in anticipation !!
Chris Youhill
10/10/11 – 06:34
Ain’t we all! Cant wait to see the Boddy’s ticket
Keith Easton
12/01/12 – 06:45
Peelings of Tittleshall had YXD 10 a very similar Reliance.
Jonathan Joplin
18/07/21 – 06:28
VBT 191 is now in the heritage fleet of Thornes Independent, Hemingbrough near Selby, North Yorkshire.
Photographer unknown – if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
The Northern General Transport Company 1961 AEC Reliance 2MU3RV Burlingham Seagull 70 C41F
On the subject of bus liveries that has been discussed on this site recently. Some operators seemed to adopt a one style fits all livery that hardly varied from one type of vehicle to another, and made little or no allowance for differences in body style or trim. This example from the NGT group is a rather sad looking AEC Burlingham Seagull that was once a rather attractive Wakefield’s coach number 251 based at Percy Main, the depot I worked at. Unfortunately I don’t have a picture of one of these in coach livery, but in common with most other Northern group coaches ‘except Sunderland & District’ it would have been predominantly cream with maroon window surrounds and skirt, I cant remember if the roof was cream or maroon, but they did look rather splendid. This one seems to have had some other changes made, the centre roof window above the windscreen has been removed or painted out, and the seats appear to have been changed as the originals would have been red and didn’t have grab rails fitted. Sunderland & District had some Leyland Tiger Cub’s with identical bodies and they ended up in bog standard stage carriage livery.
Most regulars know that I am both an AEC and a Burlingham man. Whilst it is self evident and accepted that the original Seagull was a classic, unlike many others, I quite like the 60/70 models – even if they were not quite up to scratch with the original. I never remember one of these in Manchester in the 70s but I only ever remember coaches in this livery, not the reversed cream version. Was the Tyne – Mersey service treated as a bus service for these purposes? This would still qualify as a quality livery by today’s standards. One fascinating piece of trivia is that individual NGT group fleets were either AEC, Leyland or Guy fleets. So no standard corporate ordering there then.
David Oldfield
02/11/11 – 06:46
David, you are not on your own. Whilst, undeniably the Burlingham Seagull was the ‘Creme de la Creme’ I also had a soft spot for the 60/70 series. My local operator Baddeley Bros. of Holmfirth had two original Seagulls on Royal Tiger chassis KWU 844 (1951) and LWY 653 (1953). They then had Bedford SBG/Burlingham RWY 277 in 1956, again still quite attractive. Then came four SB3’s in 1959 with the hugely curved windscreen Burlingham body (probably a coach version of the PA series Vauxhall Velox/Cresta cars of the period) Then in 1961 came Bedford SB1 2496 WY with the Burlingham 61 body. This body, I thought, suited the front engine Bedford better than the underfloor AEC/Leyland chassis. This coach was followed in 1962 by a Duple Gannet bodied SB5. Things were starting to slide Burlingham wise! All these coaches served me as school buses between 1965/70 so perhaps I’m looking through rose tinted glasses. I thought the 1959 petrol engined SB’s mundane, 2496 WY and it’s Gannet bodied sister 433 BWU, so-so but when we got the Royal Tigers with the classic Seagull body which was not that often, despite there age, that was the ‘Creme de la Creme’!
Eric
02/11/11 – 09:26
Couldn’t agree with you more, Eric. They were a superb coachbuilder but, towards the end, had more than their fare share of dogs – especially regarding design. Apart from the plastic roofs on Seagull 60s, I’m not aware of any considerable drop in quality and the Duple Continental and Firefly/Dragonfly were Burlinghams in everything but name and seemed to have a good reputation. I’m a Sheffielder, who had relatives in the Barnsley and Huddersfield areas, and always thought Baddeley Brothers looked quite classy. I was only really aware of them as a student in the early 70s, passing through on the X19. By that time, the principal vehicles were Bedford YRQ/Plaxton Panorama Elite Express grant vehicles. They still looked smart, though.
David Oldfield
02/11/11 – 15:04
David, Your mention of plastic roofs on the 60’s has jogged my memory. I remember the cloth trim on the interior ceiling of both 2496 WY and 433 BWU being quite badly stained by the ingress of water when they would probably be only about five years old. Baddeley’s also had a Duple Alpine Continental on a Leopard chassis 474 EWW. Of course the other sizeable coach operator in the Huddersfield area was Hanson’s who had two batches of Firefly’s on Ford chassis in 1963/4
Eric
03/11/11 – 06:27
Strange, isn’t it, how many operators had heavy (or medium) weight service buses and lightweight coaches? Hanson and Booth and Fisher (recently posted) had AECs and Ford coaches, York Pullman was AEC/Bedford, the Doncaster indis went down a similar road and this was replicated around the country. Firms like Baddeley Bros were less common, but by no means unique, with their mix of heavy and light weight coaches.
David Oldfield
03/11/11 – 17:46
Hanson’s was rather a complex fleet in the fifties. The coaches were a mix of Regal III and Reliances and Bedfords and the buses were AEC with a smattering of Albions. Between 1956 and 1966 most of the AEC’s went on to be rebuilt as buses. The Bedfords were kept anything from 2 to about 5 years and from about 1959 all new coaches were Fords right to the demise of the Hanson business in 1974. This change of allegiance is thought to have being something to do with Hanson Haulage buying large numbers of Ford lorries. Baddeley’s although being a smaller operator chose both Leyland and Bedford for new coaches in the fifties, many with Burlingham bodies, this policy continuing into the sixties. They also purchased quite a few secondhand coaches, including 2 that had been operated at one time or another with Hansons. Another feature of Baddeley’s was the hiring in for the summer season of coaches from local dealer Hughes and the Baddeley’s fleet name and number being applied. Several of these were in Wallace Arnold cream as the had be leased by WA for one or two seasons from Hughes when new. This led to Baddeley’s having quite an interesting and varied fleet. Wish I had owned a camera in those days.
Eric
04/11/11 – 07:04
I agree with you David. The last of what some would call ‘proper coaches’ to carry the Wakefields name were two Plaxton Embassy Bedfords ‘SB8’s I think’. The next Wakefields after that were Alexander ‘Y’ type DP’s on Leyland Leopard chassis, but I think that would have been a decision based on economics. Percy Main depot didn’t have any long distance or express routes, so the coach fleet was only used for private hires and excursions and most were de-Licensed at the end of Blackpool Illuminations, so apart from three double deckers the Wakefields name virtually disappeared from October until about Easter, where as the DP’s were used all year round and went onto stage carriage work in winter months. If memory serves, for the first couple of years some of them had the seats changed to ordinary bus type during the winter.
Ronnie Hoye
13/11/12 – 08:40
I remember going to the Lake District in the early 60s on one of these and it did indeed have the reversed coach livery the above is a later incarnation.
Malcolm Swaddle
18/04/13 – 17:40
Not in colour I’m afraid, but I’ve found this photo of one of EFT 551’s sisters in its original Wakefield’s livery. As I’ve said, Percy Main had four of these, EFT 550/3 – 250/3; and they remained in service as coaches until about 1970, they were then transferred to Northern and downgraded to D/P’s
Sheffield United Tours 1957 AEC Reliance MU3RV Burlingham C37C
In connection with the article about “Burlingham’s flock of Seagulls” by Neville Mercer. I would like to contribute the above shots of my all-time favourite coach. They looked great and were a real joy to ride. SUT’s Seagulls took me on holiday to Skegness. I attach two views, nearside & offside of the 1957 batch. Not sure of the location of 269 but YWA 273 is seen loading in Pond Street, Sheffield. Additionally many had names of European places on SUTs trips, for example, 269 was Como and 273 was Interlaken. Both had worthwhile careers after SUT. The Seagull and SUT livery were made for each other. Photos purchased from RHG Simpson.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Les Dickinson
10/06/12 – 11:48
I know Burlingham were eventually swallowed up by Duple, but did Duple have any influence on this update from the original Seagull? From this angle the rear end seems to be very similar to the Duple design of the early sixties which had a Butterfly or Crown shaped grill ‘I’ve heard it referred to as both’ Some may disagree, but I always thought the Seagull was better suited to an under floor engined chassis rather the the likes of a Bedford, but either way it was a timeless classic
Ronnie Hoye
10/06/12 – 18:00
Anyone who has been around this site for any time will know that I am an AEC, Burlingham and, as a Sheffielder, SUT fan. The rear end design, which changed in 1957, has always puzzled me, too. It is INDENTICAL to the rear end of the Duple Butterfly Vega. This was three or four years before the Duple takeover and I don’t think there was an official link before 1960 or 1961. [Where’s Neville Mercer when you need him?] SUT coaches differed within batches as to capacity (from 30 to 41) and in the case of the Burlinghams as to seat style. Some, the “Oyster” seats were standard high backed coach seats, but others (on touring coaches) had retractable heads for better vision. Later 36′ Plaxtons had only 44 widely spaced seats for touring and no headrests for similar reasons.
David Oldfield
11/06/12 – 08:43
I reckon these particular coaches were a comparative rarity. From the Seagull Mk. IV onwards most examples were front entranced with a subtly slightly more squared up front end to suit. It seems that on the few occasions when a centre-entrance was still specified the original more rounded profile of the classic Mk. I to III was retained. This is presumably a Mk. V because of the curved rear corner window arrangement. As recent discussion has pointed out, Plaxton also retained a more rounded front end on their centre-entrance models of the period, and even more so Duple on their later Brittanias.
John Stringer
11/06/12 – 14:21
In response to David Oldfield’s interesting observation on the similarity of the Seagull to the Duple Vega body of the era I submit a picture of TWJ 249 which was one of a batch (243-252) of C41C Duple Elizabethan bodied Reliances delivered to SUT in 1955. They were MU3RV The first of the Seagulls followed in 1956. Whilst the Elizabethan is not un-attractive, for me it does not please the eye so much as either the Seagull or the Duple Vega.
The earlier batch of Seagulls for Sheffield United Tours is represented here by VWE 260 delivered in 1956. The batch was 255-266 and they were AEC Reliance MU3RV (780-791). The Seagull bodies were C41C (255/6), C39C (257/8), C37C (259-264) and C30C (265/6).
The third, and final batch of AEC Reliance Burlingham Seagulls delivered to Sheffield United Tours is represented in this picture which, as before, was purchased from RHG Simpson and illustrates 3283 WB. These were again MU3RV (1529-34) and C41C. All of these went to Neath & Cardiff, and became “Brown Bombers” in 1966.
Les Dickinson
11/06/12 – 17:49
Fantastic collection, Les. Thank you for that. The Duple Elizabethan picture has a number of interesting points to it. Firstly, the Elizabethan morphed into the Roe Dalesman. [As a “Roe” man I would like to know how this happened. Did Roe buy the rights to it or did Duple buy the rights from ACV – or what?] In the background there is one of only two vehicles “bought” second-hand – as opposed to coming with the acquisition of a fleet. Two AEC Regal IV/Plaxton Venture II came from Altrincham Coachways in 1954 when less than twelve months old. Altrincham Coachways was a subsidiary of North Western Road Car – one third of the consortium that owned SUT (along with Yorkshire Traction and East Midland). “Bought” may, therefore be stretching it a bit. One was involved in an accident but the integrity of the body held up and impressed SUT engineers so much that it was responsible for them going to Plaxtons for the Panorama when Burlingham, their preferred builder, was unwilling to do so.
David Oldfield
12/06/12 – 06:52
SUT worked very closely with Plaxton on the design of the Panorama and I believe they had the first production model David. Also, the first 36′ coach on UK roads was SUT 326, 136AWJ, which was a Reliance 4U3RA I think. This was Plaxton Panorama C44F where the forerunners had been variously C36/40/41F. Many of the original ones had names which were prefixed Panorama. For example the first two,285 and 286, were Panorama Pilot and Panorama Pioneer respectively. SUT didn’t have any Roe Dalesman however Sheffield Corporation had one, 9000WB fleet number 900/90 which had a central doorway but was mostly used as a “committee” plaything I think.
Les Dickinson
12/06/12 – 06:53
Here I am! As far as I know there is no record of Burlingham purchasing parts or design rights for the “rear end” arrangement on the Seagull Mk V from Duple. Almost all external panels were made from sheet metal in Burlingham’s own workshops. Since the Seagull V was introduced two years after the first model of Duple Super Vega with a similar back-end one must suspect that a Burlingham designer was a fan of Hendon’s design. This kind of plagiarism (or is it “imitation is the sincerest form of flattery”?) was quite common back in the 1950s with both Trans-United of Rochdale and Heaver of Durrington being well-known for their Burlingham clone designs. Heaver finally took it a step too far with their New Look design of 1952. This was around 90% Seagull and attracted letters from Burlingham’s solicitors. The model was rapidly discontinued. Hate to correct you, David, but North Western didn’t buy Altrincham Coachways until 1958. At the time it sold the coaches to SUT it was still owned by the Frank Ford organisation. Ford was in the habit of selling off relatively new coaches if the price was right, and then replacing them with older vehicles from elsewhere in his empire – Altrincham Coachways received hand-me-downs from Triumph of Hastings and Gardiner of Spennymoor to replace the majority of its own fleet in 1956-57. Then, after stripping the firm’s assets, he sold it to NWRCC.
Neville Mercer
12/06/12 – 06:53
That Duple Elizabethan has a front dash panel and grill the like of which I have never seen anywhere, never mind on a Duple Elizabethan, and it is not an improvement! In its natural form I think the Elizabethan was neater and more elegant than the Dalesman, with more continuity of level between the front bit and the main window line. I’ve never heard mention of any connection before – it just looks like mild plagiarism to me. According to BBF17, Altrincham Coachways did not become a North Western subsidiary until 1958, so a purchase in 1954 would have been exactly that.
Peter Williamson
12/06/12 – 08:59
I thought you maybe interested in a colour shot of 3283 WB.
John Stringer
12/06/12 – 09:53
Neville/Peter: I stand corrected. Interesting though. Is this the same Frank Ford who went to Plaxtons, fell out with them and went to Duple to produce the Dominant – a “not quite” Elite copy? Rumour is he then ran Duple into the ground and was the architect of their demise. [A re-run of his Altricham Coachways asset stripping?] The whole point, Les, was that SUT approached Burlingham who initially refused on practical grounds. They then went to Plaxtons, after their experience with the two Regals, who came up with the Panorama and sealed a long and happy relationship. Only NBC’s insistence on going to Duple in 1973 broke this relationship. Burlingham relented, too late, with the Seagull VII – but also proved their own point in that it was structurally suspect with every alternate pillar missing to provide panoramic windows. [Plaxtons used the same idea for the Panorama. Was it the straight window line that worked for Plaxtons and the curved line which did for Burlingham?] The naming of SUT coaches started with Ben Goodfellow calling the Windover Regal IVs the “Gay” class, after his daughter Gaynor. [Another North Western connection. NWRCC had taken over the Goodfellow business and Ben moved over to be General Manager of SUT.] I believe the Elizabethans became the Elizabethen class (how original) and the Burlinghams were the Continental class. It is also interesting to note the number of Burlinghams and early Panoramas used by SUT as experimental vehicles – trying out various types of air conditioning, air suspension and even turbo-chargers, long before these became accepted, standard fitments
Nice shot, John.
David Oldfield
12/06/12 – 11:39
Yes David, it’s the same Frank Ford, and I completely agree with your comments about his later career. For some reason he always reminded me of Freddie Laker, but I’d probably better not use the word “spiv”!
Neville Mercer
13/06/12 – 09:47
Aw, go on. There’s a picture somewhere of him giving a prize to Flight’s for their Bristol RELH6L/Plaxton at the coach rally. He just looks as you said.
David Oldfield
13/06/12 – 09:48
Some very interesting information there from Neville Mercer. The Huddersfield Passenger Transport Group site contains a section on Bus Adverts which has a picture of the Heaver design, to which I think Neville refers. It is registered PYA 578 and bears the name ‘Crown Tours’. I had wondered if it was a vehicle which ever existed or if it was simply a ‘doctored’ Burlingham photograph, such is the resemblance. I wonder if anyone has a picture of it which could be posted on here because, as Neville says, it is 90% Burlingham Seagull!
But a cheap imitation nonetheless – none of the subtlety of the original.
David Oldfield
14/06/12 – 18:19
Well, David, they do say that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. However, imitations are seldom as good as the original, and having seen the picture I don’t think this is any exception.
Ronnie Hoye
17/06/12 – 09:09
Here is last month’s front view of Harper Bros., Staffs, No. 90, a rare combination of 1959 Guy LUF with Gardner 6HLW engine and Burlingham Seagull body
Chris Hebbron
17/06/12 – 16:14
Copyright Albert S. Bite
And now a rear view shot thanks to Albert S. Bite
Chris Hebbron
27/06/12 – 06:56
Regarding the two Regal IV’s purchased by SUT from Altrincham Coachways in February 1954 (RMB 158 & JBU 164). Both entered service with SUT still in the blue & cream of their previous owner but after around six months, the blue was repainted red leaving the rest cream. It was due to RMB 158 having a smash near the Cat & Fiddle on the way to Macclesfield that the company decided to approach Plaxtons with a view to building what was to become the Panorama. Burlingham was initially contacted by the company in 1957 but they turned down the idea. The Panorama was designed by the GM of SUT, Ben Goodfellow and his Chief Engineer, Ron Burgin. The Panorama name was submitted by an employee electrician at SUT by the name of John Otter who won £5 for his idea. Incidentally, SUT paid the sum of £3.980 each for RMB & JBU.
Trev Weckert
27/06/12 – 10:03
Good to welcome Mr Weckert to the forum. I have a copy of his excellent SUT book in the Venture/Prestige series.
David Oldfield
28/06/12 – 07:49
Many thanks for your kind words David. It has been mentioned that some although not all of SUT’s Seagull’s had air conditioning. To clarify this, the first delivered in 1956 (VWE255-258) had no such fitment whilst VWE 259-266 had Key Leather units fitted in a ‘pod’ on the roof which was powered by paraffin. The 1957 batch (YWA 267-278)and the 1958 ones (3279 WB-3284 WB had Webasto units mounted beneath the floor. Incidentally, 266 became the official transport of the Joe Loss Orchestra and bore the legend “In The Mood” whilst SUT had this contract. This was the second coach to undertake this duty, the first being a Windover Kingsway bodied Regal IV (RWE 228). Hope this is of some interest.
Trev Weckert
17/07/12 – 18:00
Trev Weckert mentions the “Joe Loss – In The Mood” vehicles. Herewith a picture of VWE 266 in that very mood. Note the clef symbol below the side-light This one was MU3RV 791, Burlingham 6086, normally C41C, but C30C whilst on this contract. This vehicle went to Murrellmills, Trafford Park in, or by 1967
Les Dickinson
26/10/12 – 07:00
I seem to have missed some of the later comments on this thread. I like the reference to the Joe Loss coach, and its clef symbol. One of my former colleagues was something of a musician in his spare time, being involved with a Bavarian-style band. His initials were PJG, which he always wrote as the clef.
Pete Davies
03/01/14 – 08:01
Interesting to read about SUT. I regularly travelled with them as a youngster. However they used to have a coach based on the Isle Of Man. Such was the size of their operation. I remember seeing it on Douglas promenade in the early sixties. I can’t remember what model it was but I believe it was an AEC. It also had an IOM registration.
Andrew T
03/01/14 – 09:52
Andrew, the IOM law at the time was that any vehicle so “outstationed” should have a local registration. Thus, each year, an SUT coach was re-registered for a stay on the IOM. It was only there for a season – less than a calendar year – and then returned home to Sheffield. It was not necessarily the same one in even consecutive years. Whether the same IOM mark was used I do not know. [Trevor Weckert, are you out there?]
David Oldfield
05/01/14 – 16:43
I have traced four SUT Reliances that carried Manx registrations: 1958 Burlingham 284 (3284 WB) carried “YMN 616” for the 2/59 to 04/62 seasons 1960 Plaxton 309 (6309 WJ) carried “5380 MN” for the 05/62 to 04/66 seasons 1961 Plaxton 321 (1321 WA) carried “69 FMN” for the 04/66 to 01/71 seasons 1970 Plaxton 409 (DWA 409H) carried “96XMN” for the 04/71 to 09/72 seasons
Dave Farrier
07/01/14 – 07:06
Slightly off topic, but related to registration plates. When I was at secondary school in Harrogate in the late ‘sixties, our brilliant art teacher Miss Daly had a beautiful ‘Old English White’ Morgan sports car. It had the customary black pressed alloy number plates with aluminium-coloured letters/numerals, which were noteworthy in having yellow-coloured surrounds front and rear. I later discovered this indicated that the vehicle was temporarily imported from abroad, which tied in nicely with our art teacher being from New Zealand. (From memory the car was registered in the HOX-E series). Probably a long shot, but I wonder if any PSV’s ever sported such plates.
Brendan Smith
07/01/14 – 13:38
Brendon, Temporary reg no’s were QA-QT
Roger Broughton
10/01/14 – 18:32
Thanks for the info regarding the Q-series registrations Roger. Although I knew of them, probably from I-Spy books, I had obviously misunderstood the information I had read in my youth relating to yellow number plate surrounds, and wrongly linked the two. All these years I have been under the mis-apprehension that the white Morgan was a temporary import. Following further research on t’interweb, it transpires that between 1963 and 1972, vehicles purchased in the UK for subsequent export were given number plates with yellow edging (which was changed to red in 1973), indicating that purchase tax (or later, VAT) had not been paid. Fortunately this still ties in nicely with said Morgan, as Miss Daly left the school in 1968, presumably to return to New Zealand with her fine sports car. I hold my wrist out for a firm slap Roger, comforted by the fact that this website continues to contribute so admirably to lifelong learning.
Brendan Smith
20/01/14 – 08:08
Although the Kingsways of SUT were the first ‘official’ named coaches in the fleet, a number of unofficial namings took place. Half cab Regals from the KWA batch received the following KWA 707 Yorkshire Lad, KWA 712 Highland Monarch, KWA 717 Torquay Queen, KWA 721 Bournemouth Belle. KWA 723 was the first Sheffield Wednesday coach in the fleet. Originally it had a football mounted above the cab. A number of Kingsways had Thermotank forced air systems from new. Incidentally some of the VWE regd Seagull had air conditioning by Key-Leather mounted in a pod on the roof powered by Paraffin.
Trev Weckert
20/01/14 – 11:59
What did I start here?? What a great post this turned out to be, with some wonderful comments and information from a wide range of knowledgeable people. Thanks Trev for this latest comment which confirmed to me that I was a tad less mad than I thought I was. I always thought that I had either seen, or seen a picture of, KWA 712 as “The Yorkshire Lad” when I was just that. I have never been able to find any such confirmation in print. I, for one, am never too old to learn something new and today’s lesson came courtesy of Mr. Weckert!
Les Dickinson
27/01/14 – 15:55
Hi Les, Just to put things straight, it was KWA 707 that wore Yorkshire Lad and it also bore a Tam O Shanta transfer on the bonnet side. In the early fifties a number of coaches were borrowed from Northern Roadways in Glasgow and upon return by SUT staff (including Jack Hancock and Jim Heenan) it was noted that their coaches had this transfer on them. The management was asked if they could spare a couple. Upon return to Sheffield, transfers were affixed to bonnets of KWA 706/707.
Trev Weckert
31/01/14 – 15:44
I have your book from the Library at present. As a boy I used to go & look at the SUT garage to marvel at the coaches & their destinations. You did a great job Trev.
Andy Fisher
01/09/17 – 05:57
Regarding the 1st Montreaux Coach Rally. I was always told that my Father Walter Fothergill was the driver who drove the SUT coach that won this rally.
Edward Fothergill
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
14/01/20 – 16:14
This picture of an SUT Seagull brings back happy memories. I attended St Wilfrids school between 1963 and 1968. Our original school bus which was owned by the school and driven by the caretaker Mr O’Toole, was a green Chesterfield lowdecker. This had four abreast seating upstairs on the left side and a sunken trough on the right side. At some point this was replaced by a Seagull which still bore the SUT livery. I remember it being very luxurious when compared to every other bus I’d seen previously. It would start collecting pupils on Shoreham Street, up Wolsley Rd, then up Abbeydale Rd to Millhouses Lane. I’d catch it outside Abbeydale Cinema. Anybody have any idea which registration it carried. Sadly, driver had eyesight problems, and the bus languished in it’s parking spot till disposal.
M Stevenson
19/01/20 – 06:18
Reliance 264 (VWE 264) passed to St Wilfred’s Roman Catholic School, Sheffield in 1965, then to Trevor Ward and Son Limited, Kirkburton in 10/1970, being withdrawn in 10/1971. Probably had more legroom in its C37C format, compared to Ribble’s GCK-registered Royal Tigers which were C41C.
This was a one off purchase by Sheffield initially used for visits, inspections etc by the Transport Committee but later used in normal service. My mother travelled on it on a number of occasions on service 48 to Manchester via Woodhead when visiting relations ‘over there’. Having a centre entrance made it unsuitable for one man operation but it still lasted until 1970. Since much of the Peak District single deck work had by this time been converted to OMO, I wonder what use was made of it in the final two or three years. The bus was renumbered 90 in the 1967 scheme and I recall it being in a pretty dreadful external condition towards the end of its life. This was Sheffield’s only AEC Reliance (perhaps experience suggested the Leyland 0.600 engine in the early Leopards was a better bet than the head gasket failure prone AEC AH470) and their only coach body built by Roe. I think it is quite an elegant design from what was generally a bus body builder. I assume it would be teak framed like their standard double deck design . Note the non standard size Sheffield Transport fleet name transfer above the City coat of arms.
Oh the blessed 900/90. What Ian says from both a professional and enthusiast perspective is quite right, but the Leopards came later. The story I heard was about Civic Spite – between Sheffield and Leeds. Leeds bought one and Sheffield had to have one as well. [Bit like Salford and Manchester.] I assume the 1955 Moncoaches were AH470 rather than AH410, but I agree dry-liner 0.600s were probably a better bet than wet-liner AH470s for charging across the Pennines and into the Peak District. As Charles H Roe’s biggest fan, I’m a little sorry that the Dalesman didn’t quite take off into great popularity – but that wasn’t really the point. Just as Plaxton’s built buses in the summer to cover their dead period, Roe built batches of Dalesmans for sale from stock when they had fallow periods of bus construction. [On that basis, I suppose it’s surprising they built so many Dalesmans!] The construction was of Roe’s original and best.
David Oldfield
20/06/12 – 08:17
David. you’re probably aware of this already, but Economic of Whitburn had one of these splendid vehicles on an AEC chassis ‘YPT 796’ and I’m pleased to say that its still alive and well and now forms part of the N.E.B.P.T. Ltd collection
Ronnie Hoye
20/06/12 – 08:18
Leeds first coach came in 1965 and was an AEC Reliance with a different style of Roe bodywork. It was always used as a private hire vehicle and never as a committee toy! Indeed the only saloons in the Leeds fleet at that time were some centre entrance standee types on Leyland AEC and Guy chassis seating 34 and some newer Reliances with dual door bodywork. All carried Roe bodies and had mountainous steps. They were certainly not coaches! Locally West Riding had a batch of AEC Reliance coaches with Dalesman bodywork
Chris Hough
20/06/12 – 11:38
These stories which go the rounds….. I actually drove the Leeds coach when in the ownership of David Crowther’s Classic Coaches of High Wycombe. [In lousy weather from Reading to Lord’s Cricket ground – and back.] The Dalesman was dropped after the slightly odd final version in 1959, of which Black & White had, I believe, six. After that, the Roe coach was far closer to a DP on the standard bus shell. Leeds and York Pullman showed how to “coachify” the body to make it more than acceptable for Private Hires – as did Booth and Fisher. Ronnie, I was aware of the Economic coach, but not its continued existence. Thanks for the good news. Regrettably this Sheffield exile in Surrey may never get to see it in your beautiful part of the world.
David Oldfield
20/06/12 – 11:39
There are shots of both the Economic and also a West Riding example at www.sct61.org.uk
Chris Hough
21/06/12 – 06:43
There are some interesting comments above and on other pages of this site regarding civic jealousy, rather than civic pride, when it came to having a coach in the fleet. In Southampton, there was a period when the then Transport Manager wanted at least dual purpose vehicles if not full coaches, to support his growing private hire business. The idea was rejected by the Committee, largely because one of the members was of the family owning a local coach operator. Shouldn’t there have been a declaration of interest? I imagine from the photo that this coach was in overall cream livery. I feel it would have looked better with the lower panels – where the crest is – in blue.
Pete Davies
21/06/12 – 06:44
The story goes that on one of its first outings with the Transport Committee on board, 9000 WB ground to a halt in the centre of the city, needing rescue. Apparently before leaving Townhead Street garage, the driver had topped it up with water, but had poured it into the the fuel tank instead of the radiator. Can’t begin to imagine what the Committee chairman had to say about that!
Dave Careless
21/06/12 – 06:44
It was known amongst Sheffield Transport staff as the “blunderbus”!
P White
21/06/12 – 06:45
Felix of Hadfield also had a “coachified” AEC Reliance- Roe DP vehicle which is happily still around it lives at Sandtoft Trolleybus Museum
Chris Hough
21/06/12 – 06:46
David O, I don’t understand your passing reference to Salford and Manchester. Salford had a committee coach – a self-indulgent 26-seat Weymann Fanfare-bodied Reliance that rarely turned a wheel – but I don’t believe Manchester did.
Peter Williamson
21/06/12 – 11:22
Peter. Sometimes the brain is faster than the finger. Manchester always had some sort of coach for Ringway services, Salford had to have one and, like Sheffield, the only true use was for the Committee. Yes, the Fanfare got more use in SELNEC days on airport work. [I believe its predecessor was a full fronted Daimler CVD6/Burlingham.
David Oldfield
21/06/12 – 11:25
Did Roe have any liaison with Duple over the Dalesman as it bears more than a passing resemblance to the Duple Elizabethan body. Similarly the last version of the Dalesman has a look of the contemporary Willowbrook Viscount One of these ex Felix of Hadfield is also preserved at Sandtoft.
Chris Hough
21/06/12 – 19:06
Just for the record, Sheffield used its other coaches (23 I believe) on the longer routes, for example the Peak District routes / railway routes.
Les Dickinson
21/06/12 – 19:12
It is said that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. I think that Roe were probably just inspired by the Elizabethan and copied the general outline of the front entrance version, with its slightly more upright front, yet making it sufficiently different in detail so as not to cause any bother. The Dalesman’s window line was a fraction higher and slightly straighter, and the forward sloping pillar that divided these from the front section was slightly squarer. I rather prefer the Dalesman myself, but Duple soon replaced the Elizabethan with the neater Brittania with its uninterrupted window line, whereas Roe continued with the stepped outline.
John Stringer
07/08/12 – 07:19
I suspect this was as much to do with civic pride as anything else. If Leeds has got one, we must too and vice versa. LCT certainly had a Reliance coach, C reg I think. Then there was SCTs 500 City Clipper service, cos Leeds had one, using Merc minibuses. It continues today with the nonsense over trams.
In the nineteen fifties West Riding bought very few batches of saloons They were used on a selection of routes. Seen in Leeds bus station is a Roe bodied AEC Reliance fleet number 817 registration JHL 717 which dates from 1956. It is on the “back roads route” from Leeds to Castleford via Swillington and Fryston. West Riding did not always bother with route numbers as is evident from this shot The bus certainly shows the effect of road grime on paintwork as it stands in Leeds bus station in 1967.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Chris Hough
01/08/12 – 07:19
Odd design- front not very Roe? It may well have picked that spray up that day on that back roads route- could be off the fields or clay slurry from mining. Note the single mini-wiper and the gloop around its perimeter, the state of the wheels/tyres and (possibly) the wet muck behind the rear wheels. It got better when the windows were covered too- that’s where the idea for the all-over adverts came from. Nearly on thread: West Riding’s successors, Arriva, have just managed to provide a new batch of deckers with facing fore and aft seats over the rear wheels. Now where do the local yobbery put their muddy feet/boots? Arriva are now providing notices to try to stop people dirtying their clothes on muddy seats. Come back practical designers… conductors… inspectors!!
Joe
01/08/12 – 08:53
Actually, very Roe, Joe. For a time in the early fifties, this droopy windscreen was a feature of Roe saloons – and distinguished them from their Park Royal cousins built on the same frames. I like your theory about the origins of contra-vision adverts, though!
David Oldfield
01/08/12 – 11:59
As we Geordies would say “wor bairns hacky mucky” rough translation “the baby is in need of a wash”
Ronnie Hoye
01/08/12 – 12:01
What a dismal scene! Obviously a grotty day, when some photographers would leave the camera at home because of a) the weather and b) the resulting dirty appearance of the vehicle. There are some photographers of buses who capture only “pristine” views but there is a real world out there and it often happens that the cleaners can’t keep pace with the weather. It may just happen that the photographer is on holiday and wants to record the local transport. I know that doesn’t apply in this case, but what’s the photographer supposed to do, come back next year and hope the same bus is still in service? Very atmospheric, and the black and white print enhances that. Thanks for sharing. Interesting comment from Joe regarding back to back seating over the rear wheels. I first noticed this with Bolton Corporation, but the idea still persists. The original idea was to have greater seating capacity. The inward facing arrangement seems to me to be far better. Clearly, a candidate for the “nice idea, but . . .” file!
Pete Davies
01/08/12 – 15:38
While “facing seats” are not by any means ideal the abuse of them on both buses and trains is absolutely abominable. Its almost certain that, as you walk past any stationary bus, if you look inside you will see passengers with their filthy footwear planted on the opposite seat – and not just placed there either – there will be plenty of “scrubbing” in every direction just to plant more filth and to cause as much wear to the material as possible. It might be thought that those responsible would just be the yobs of Society, but not a bit of it – the culprits are just as likely to be smartly dressed businessmen or secretarial young ladies. It is a despicable and costly habit, of which the perpetrators are fully aware and, apart from the burden placed on transport operators, the ruination of decent peoples hard earned nice clothing is scandalous. In summary the phrase “Blow you Jack I’m alright” springs to mind, and in reality there can be no cure for it – its sadly just another sign of “Today.”
Chris Youhill
01/08/12 – 17:37
You’re dead right, Joe and Chris. However, it seems to be a universal problem. I remember once risking my life by photographing a couple of youths on a German train with their feet on the seat directly under a large and unambiguous”Halten Sie Füße weg von den Sitzen”(or similar) sign and graphic image. Needless to say, they just laughed at me, but (who knows) maybe the memory of the occasion may just hit home to one of them in years to come? Staff, particularly on railways, rarely bother to challenge the offenders as they prefer a quiet life, and who can blame them? However, one can sometimes come unstuck by making big assumptions – like the time I worked myself into a Victor Meldrew Harumph on seeing a lady with outstretched legs onto the opposite seat in a first class carriage. I was on the brink of saying something when I thankfully noticed that she had removed her shoes and placed a newspaper on the seat to rest her stockinged feet! Phew! Nearly an “I’ll get my coat…….” moment!
Paul Haywood
02/08/12 – 07:12
Would, the would be perpetrators on arriving home put their muddy /dirty shoes on their own furniture thus defiling their property, I think not.
David Henighan
02/08/12 – 07:13
Sometimes a bit of sarcasm works wonders, when I was at Armstrong Galley one of our drivers had a notice in his coach ‘if the floor is full please don’t hesitate to use the litter bin’ strangely enough it seemed to work
Ronnie Hoye
02/08/12 – 07:13
I acknowledge your knowledge, David. I was thinking of exclusive Roe users like Doncaster, but at that time they were still on half cabs! Underfloor came much later.
Joe
02/08/12 – 07:14
I thoroughly agree with Joe regarding back to back seating over rear wheel arches, they seem to be obligatory with modern day low floor buses. I witnessed one of Stagecoach leather coach seated Scania/ALX 400’s when only days old being so treated despite various notices asking that it not be done. When I was a driver I would wherever possible make a point of loudly asking for all feet to be taken off all seats it seemed popular with most passengers except the thoughtless culprits, as Chris says another sign of “today” I’m glad that I retired 9 years ago.
Diesel Dave
02/08/12 – 07:15
I wholeheartedly agree about the comments made about yobs (and non yobs) putting their feet on the back to back seats, who knows what they could have stood in? A few years ago I went for a lengthy trip on the Yorkshire Coastliner service between Leeds and Scarborough and felt the need to contact the company about some matter or other, I honestly can’t remember what it was now. Anyway, I took the opportunity to mention that this seating arrangement was not ideal for such a long journey and that people sat on the back seat tended to use the facing seat as a footrest. Coastliner’s suggestion was that I should have had a word with the perpetrators!
Dave Towers
02/08/12 – 11:18
Dave Towers received a somewhat pathetic and “resigned” reply from Coastliner – did they also include a list of A & E departments along the route where Dave could receive attention to his injuries after the quite likely “smack in t’ mouth” which could result from “having a word.” I share Diesel Dave’s sentiments and I am glad that I retired eleven years ago – the level of appalling conduct by too many passengers is now beyond a joke – and I loved the career to a passion – so I can well understand how most drivers who are doing the job “just for a living” must feel.
Chris Youhill
02/08/12 – 11:20
Joe. This comes down to personal experience – if you had never come across the droopy screens then you would assume they did not exist, or were an aberration. I happen to be a Roe fan/”expert” – but presumably, with Doncaster connections, so are you. I’ve been caught out in the past myself.
David Oldfield
02/08/12 – 17:12
Tough attitude of passengers both young and old can be yobbish but to a degree the companies are also at fault. In Leeds the interior of vehicles are often filthy with old newspapers, tickets etc on buses just out of the depot. Minor vandalism such as graffiti is left in situ so Joe Public see an unloved uncared for bus that they think hmm the company don’t care why should I. I am old enough to remember buses smelling of disinfectant on leaving the depot not last nights takeaway!
Chris Hough
02/08/12 – 17:13
I seem to remember being told that the reason for the demise of inward facing seats over wheelarches, in favour of back to back ones, was an ‘elfen safety’ issue. It was reckoned that passengers could fall off these seats too easily when the bus cornered (yes, they did actually sometimes!). I agree entirely with all the above sentiments regarding inconsiderate, yobbish behaviour on buses these days, and as someone who still has to drive buses for a living (albeit part-time now, after nearly 40 years full-time) for a major operator, it is heartening to know that at least a few of you sympathise with the hopeless situation we find ourselves in. All too often, present day bus drivers are criticised for being uncaring and disinterested, and held totally to blame for the state of the industry today. Physically we may have it easier with our automatic gearboxes, power-steering and computerised ticket machines – no more grappling with crash boxes, heavy steering or snipping away at piles of Willebrew tickets etc. – but the job is much more stressful, frustrating and demoralising in a host of different ways that the PSV drivers and conductors of yesteryear could never envisage. Passengers often complain that the “bus driver should have done something” when there has been yobbish, unsocial behaviour taking place but, as Chris rightly implies, one is certainly putting oneself at risk of abuse – at the very least of the foul verbal kind, and quite possibly of the violent physical kind – if one intervenes. It’s just not worth it. The companies pay lip service to their official intolerance of this kind of behaviour, but otherwise just ignore the issue – probably for fear of appearing too authoritarian. Even yobs are fare-paying passengers so we must not upset them too much.
John Stringer
03/08/12 – 07:55
I remember these buses coming through Dewsbury on the joint West Riding/Yorkshire Woollen service 3 to Cullingworth. I believe one is being prepared at the Dewsbury Bus Museum.
Philip Carlton
09/08/12 – 09:30
If I may climb back over the seats to the subject of Roe Underfloor Designs of the 50’s…. checking with Peter Gould’s list, I see that Doncaster actually bought a single centre entrance Regal IV in 1951…it must have been a sort of Festival of Britain experimental fling, because they also bought the two 8ft double deckers- Regent III and CVD6- which they sold on as two wide (for the streets or the washer- the jury is out) and then the two all-Leyland PD2’s which were the last non-Roe deckers ever bought and, trolley-bodied, lasted nearly 20 years: the next year, I see they bought nothing! Anyway… the party was clearly over and they reverted to half cab Regal IIIs in 1953, which were more typical of this traditional fleet. But… my point is that I have found a pic of 21 and it doesn’t have droopy windscreens… angled two piece, it seems…… so the droopy screens came later…
Joe
11/08/12 – 07:27
Pontypridd U.D.C. had three 1957 Guy Arab LUF’s with Roe rear-entrance bodies and ‘droopy’ windscreens – try this link:- www.sct61.org.uk/ Lancashire United Transport had some Atkinson PM746H’s with Roe bodies with similar fronts also, see:- www.flickr.com/photos/
John Stringer
11/08/12 – 09:20
I’ll throw another one at you Joe. You mentioned square screens on Regal IVs – just like Sheffield’s 12 – 14. The droopies were only on Reliances (and contemporary underfloors) which would make them 1953 onwards – but still from “the early fifties”.
David Oldfield
12/08/12 – 07:21
As Manuel said… I learn… I learn. Curious that the “square” underfloor body designs look better or more modern…like that Pennine Royal Tiger.
Joe
16/11/12 – 09:04
John mentions (02/08/12) the yobbish attitude of passengers sadly this attitude to other peoples property is prevalent in all walks of life. I work in the NHS and we have a constant problem with mindless vandalism to furniture in particular. I once asked a culprit if he would do the same to his own property and was met with a torrent of four letter words and told I pay your effin wages so shut it.
Chris Hough
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
04/07/14 – 07:41
You get a fine from Merseyrail Electrics if you put your feet on their seats. There are signs up warning about it and they seem to work. Not that I use their trains very often.
Maidstone & District Motor Services Ltd 1954 AEC Reliance MU3RV Harrington C37C
A recent posting led to a discussion about the relative importance in a PSV of economy, reliability and good looks, and I picked this vehicle as an example that in my opinion embraces all three qualities. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and my personal preferences may not be shared by others, but the lines of these coaches always seemed to me to be well-balanced and elegant in an understated way, if, perhaps, a trifle old-fashioned. The styling of the roofline around the destination indicator was a treatment popular with many coach builders and operators for front-engined vehicles, but by the mid-1950s, the effect had become a bit dated. Very appealing, nevertheless, and the epitome of high quality and pedigree. Sadly, C329 doesn’t look its best in the photo – absolutely no criticism of Chris’s camera work, but following withdrawal it’s become scruffy and the sun’s angle casts a shadow that exaggerates the front windscreen divisions. Also, the “moustache” beading may seem fussy, but it was almost an M&D trademark. I’d be grateful for other correspondents’ views on C329’s attractiveness or otherwise. [This link will show C328, in rather smarter condition.] M&D were substantial Harrington customers for many years and they had almost 50 vehicles of this design in their extensive, (I’d say excessive), coach fleet. By the time I joined, they had been withdrawn from front line express duties, however, and were kept mainly to provide summer capacity. Like every underfloor-engined AEC I ever drove, their road manners were impeccable. Even the prospect of a spell at the wheel was a pleasure to look forward to. They were also both economical and very reliable. Inside, these coaches were not, perhaps, as light and airy as some of their contemporaries, but there was no sense of claustrophobia. On the contrary, they conveyed an atmosphere of relaxation, reinforced by the wonderfully comfortable seats and by their extraordinary quietness. Their main drawback, (only drawback as far as I’m concerned), was the centre entrance, which made it uneconomic to convert them to other uses.
Photo by Chris Hough. Many thanks for his kind permission to use it.
6 of this batch were acquired by Yorkshire Woollen where they were nicknamed Gunboats by the crews.TKM 304/26/347/348/9/5O were numbered 435-440. They were purchased to replace a similar number of Commer/Beadles. Another member of the batch was purchased by Hebble Motor Services at Halifax to replace an ex Red Line Reliance that was a fire victim. After YWD they went on to an operator called Davies of Ferryhill County Durham except for 436 that was broken up by YWD after a bad accident.
Philip Carlton
17/08/12 – 07:23
As a northern boy I didn’t get to see the inside. My personal view of the outside is of a fine looking coach. Perhaps one-too-many windows/panels. One less, but slightly longer would have enhanced the appearance, and the roofline over the front is not enhanced by the application of the livery. In my opinion the cream area should have followed the outline of the roof – then- almost perfection. No doubt others will say tosh, but that’s my thought.
Les Dickinson
17/08/12 – 10:26
The box for the fleetname over the destination and service number boxes doesn’t help the outline. Either omit the fleetname or omit the service number box and have the destination and fleetname side by side. Then use another BET operator’s style of livery (Ribble or Southdown) and it would make quite a lot of difference. As we are, it seems a feeble attempt at imitating the Silver Star front dome.
Pete Davies
17/08/12 – 12:32
As a Kentishman I have to say I can’t see anything wrong with the livery or layout of the destination! Shame to see this looking so scruffy though – I remember these coaches featuring on the cover of M&D’s tours brochures which were captioned “Over the hills and far away”. The Silver Star “headboard” was an abomination on this design and ruined an otherwise graceful look. All these things are of course subjective…
Andrew Goodwin
17/08/12 – 12:33
Roy is right about the state of the coach and very kind about my photograph! The coach was parked in a back street in Preston and was certainly not in the M&D fleet! Like a number of fifties coaches these seem to be built like the proverbial brick Outhouse!
Chris Hough
17/08/12 – 16:29
I have to disagree with Andrew on this one – I thought that the Silver Star Wayfarer Mark 2s were vastly improved by their headboards, unlike that operator’s all-Leyland Royal Tigers and Burlingham Seagull which really did look atrocious. Preservationists seem to agree with me as both MMR 552 and 553 are still with us, and the owner of “553” once told me that there was a waiting list of people who wanted to buy the coach from him at any reasonable price. If I ever win the jackpot in the lottery I will outbid them all!
Neville Mercer
There is a posting of them both together coming shortly. Watch this space as they say.
Peter
18/08/12 – 07:40
In my opinion, which doesn’t count for much…I think that destination information on the front of bus/coaches should always be upright so that reflections are reduced and they become easier for those of us whose sight is not 20/20 to read at a glance. Obviously that would not tie in very well with the design of this coach, but I must admit that the picture of it in the link is very smart and clean…
Norman Long
20/08/12 – 08:05
Funny: until this very moment I’ve looked at photographs of these vehicles and thought “M&D coach, nice”: but all of a sudden the affinity with some nasty little Gurney-Nutting(?) bodied Commers(?) has struck me, and now I just find them hideous. Why? The “pinched-in front”, the way the front dome just seems to push the already squeezed-in front down, giving a sort of hump-backed appearance to the whole thing – and there are too many windows, which (on their own) I could live with. Ugh. In full M&D rig and in the context of when they were built it might have been a different story . . .
Philip Rushworth
20/08/12 – 09:08
Philip, nice to see there are people who can call “the Emperor’s new clothes” in the face of popular opinion. M & D vehicles were just magnificently turned out, but I never rated these Harringtons. They got it very right with the Cavalier/Grenadier but the Bedford/Ford versions were hideous and the Legionnaire not much better. Balanced design again – you either have or you don’t.
David Oldfield
20/08/12 – 14:02
I’ve held back until now on commenting about these Harrington bodies, but seeing that Philip Rushworth and David Oldfield have entered less than rhapsodic views about them, I will say that I always thought them to be incredibly ugly vehicles. Just compare the styling with other contemporary designs using curved corner glasses at the front – the classic ECW LS coach, for example. Harrington did very much better with the Cavalier.
Roger Cox
24/08/12 – 08:36
Who’d build coach bodies – it’s a fickle market isn’t it? driven by fashion, rather than by loyalty. Burlingham got it right with the “original” Seagull then missed the “zeitgeist” with subsequent offerings; as did Harrington with the Cavalier/Grenadier; Duple seemed to judge the market right for many years until gradually loosing the plot and fading away in the 80s(?); and Plaxton seems have picked up from the mid-1960s with the introduction of the Panorama. However, history seems to suggest the Plaxton’s days are numbered, and that they are due to misjudge the market and enter decline (look what happened to Leyland et. al.) . . . but there aren’t any more British coach builders to take their place!
Philip Rushworth
24/08/12 – 12:24
You’re so right Philip. Duple lost the plot and went bust at the end of the ’80s – when Plaxton bought their intellectual rights. Duple’s is a very sad story inexorably linked with a certain Mr Ford who had previously fallen out with Plaxton and moved over to Duple – hence the vague similarity between the Panorama Elite and the Dominant.
David Oldfield
24/08/12 – 12:25
Seems I’m in a small minority in liking this design. At the risk of losing whatever tiny credibility I might ever have had in these pages, however, I remain unrepentant.
Roy Burke
24/08/12 – 15:43
You’re still welcome and entirely entitled to your own opinions, Roy. There are times when – in my professional, musical life – I differ from my colleagues. Grown ups accept each other, regardless (and I think most of us are grown up on this forum).
David Oldfield
11/02/13 – 13:27
You’re not alone Roy, I like the Wayfarer 2 style as well. I don’t think it was as nice as the later Wayfarer 4 but for an early 1950s body, I think it was quite stylish. It did make an attempt to get away from just being a box, which is so easy on an underfloor flat front single decker. I think Harrington bodies were all of real quality and generally well styled (with as always the obligatory exception). They were certainly better looking than many of the competitors’ efforts.
Gordon Mackley
14/06/13 – 07:31
The Reliance Harrington C37C don’t remember them even though grew up with M & D but can say I was on one just last week don’t remember batch but sure worked all over the M & D patch ended its days think in Bexhill can say a very impressive coach so as they say watch this space soon be out of hiding.
Paul
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
08/06/15 – 16:08
Maidstone and District’s Wayfarer 2 bodies came on three different types of chassis and they were each very different. The most numerous (in terms of both vehicles and photos) were the AEC Reliances. The Leyland Royal Tiger versions had central entrances like the AECs and might have been expected to be the same but in fact had vertical rather than sloping window pillars. The Commer Contender versions were of a completely different configuration, having front entrances. Interestingly the centre entrance coaches had front offside emergency exits and the front entrance Contenders centre ones!
Black and White Motorways 1961 AEC Reliance 2MU3RV Duple C37C
Seen at their base in Cheltenham Coach Station on Sunday 20 August 1967 on Associated Motorways services are two members of the Black and White Motorways fleet. 182 (PAD 182) is a Willowbrook bodied Guy Arab LUF, new in 1955 and 222 (8222 AD) is a Duple bodied AEC Reliance new in 1961. Both are 37 seaters, with a centre entrance, which was standard for Black and White at the time, apart from a batch of 5 Roe Dalesman bodied Reliances new in 1959, which had 41 seats and a front entrance. The somewhat flamboyant Duple body on 222 contrasts with the restrained, classic elegance of the ECW bodied Bristol MW in Royal Blue livery alongside, also on Associated Motorways work.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Bob Gell
05/09/12 – 08:45
Another gem! I never experienced Cheltenham Coach Station, but I had two years of coach travel between Birmingham and Lancaster in the 1966/68 era. A veritable rainbow on steroids.
Pete Davies
05/09/12 – 08:46
What a great pic. Things aint what they used to be. Thanks for sharing that.
Les Dickinson
06/09/12 – 06:53
As an AEC (and Bristol) man, it’s amazing how many Guy Arab UF/LUF coaches have pitched up on this forum in recent months. I never came across one personally, but it is significant how many of you hold them in high regard and great affection.
David Oldfield
07/09/12 – 07:17
On that subject, David, in 1955 Northern General took delivery of 16 Weymann Fanfare’s, 6 on AEC chassis went to Wakefield’s, the other 10 for Northern were on Guy Arab UF/LUF and had the almost indestructible Gardner 6HLW. They had quite long lives for coaches, they were re-trimmed an re-seated by Plaxton’s in 1964 and were still around in 1968. Sadly I don’t think any survived into preservation, but to my mind the Fanfare was timeless classic that wouldn’t look out of place now
Ronnie Hoye
07/09/12 – 07:19
I worked in and out of Cheltenham from Eastbourne in the summer during the early 70’s when working for Southdown arriving to connect with the 16:00 hrs mass departure and leaving the next day with the 14:00 hrs departure these mass departures were a sight to behold looking chaotic but in reality very well organised any late arrivals contacting the control office to advise of any onward connections so that only those services needing to be held back were. I remember the Reliance/Duple coaches by that time relegated to mainly duplicate journeys and were not very popular and known to all Black & White drivers as “Bubblecars” usually given to first season drivers who were then told to follow the service car he then found the service driver with the well known request “don’t lose me as I’ve never done this run before”. I never lost one and always felt sorry for them as I felt it was not a good way to learn any route especially one like ours which took around 7 hours. One of the station inspectors told me they could get around 140 coaches in the yard, to me it seemed they proved it on many summer Saturdays and as this was in the very early days of National white livery with many vehicles still in company colours it was a truly magnificent sight also of course there were many private company vehicles on relief journeys which added to the spectacle. Oh happy days.
Diesel Dave
08/09/12 – 07:31
I agree about the Weymann Fanfare, Ronnie.
David Oldfield
10/09/12 – 07:30
Ronnie and David, the Northern General Guy Arab LUFs with Weymann Fanfare bodies were my favourite coaches of all time – see half way down this page //sct61.org.uk
Peter Williamson
11/09/12 – 06:39
As you say on the other site, Peter, the Guy Weymann’s were extensively used on the Newcastle – Liverpool service and that was pre motorway era, so regardless of the route you took it involved a lot of up’s and downs on single carriageway roads, but it says a lot about the vehicles that they lasted as long as they did, reliability was never an issue but at times seating capacity was
Ronnie Hoye
27/05/14 – 14:00
I Remember it well driving my new 53 seater Ford with Plaxton body on dupe from Leicester to Cheltenham and ending up in Devon on service, Anyone out there remember the old Caff in Bridgewater open all night.
I Williams Ex N & S Travel
07/03/20 – 07:25
During the late fifties to mid sixties my family travelled at least once every year from Eastbourne to Cheltenham to stay with my Aunt and family. A seven to eight hour journey through every town and village from south to north west. I, as a child thought the older coaches were very comfortable, probably Guy’s. They left Eastbourne Southdown depot in a queue, Black and White coaches being a highlight of the trip. I remember coach drivers changing places by a complex arm link dance on the move. Pretty common for those days on long trips.
East Kent Road Car Co Ltd 1957 AEC Reliance MU3RV Beadle C32C
When new, this handsome-looking vehicle would have worn East Kent’s traditional coach livery of maroon and cream. In the photo it is seen towards the end of its East Kent days, still on active coaching duties, but wearing a revised livery of grey and maroon. At some point in its career, MJG 48 has received extra aluminium trim strips along the body sides, with another strip discreetly added above the headlights. This subtle, well thought out modification has, in my view, allowed for the application of an updated livery, whilst maintaining an air of quality and dignity befitting an older vehicle. (The coach is actually sporting NBC white bus-style fleetnames and ‘Double N’ logos on the sides, but somehow they do not dominate). This fine coach and its siblings had long working lives with East Kent, and most were not withdrawn I believe until 1975.
Talking of subtle differences, this is essentially the Rochester body (for separate chassis) but the front end does not immediately give it away. The main part of the body is uncannily like the Weymann Fanfare – even more so on the Rochester itself. Fine vehicle, fine operator – fine memories.
David Oldfield
24/09/12 – 17:15
After looking at yesterdays posting of the East Kent Beadle bodied Reliance I remembered having a photo of another of the batch in the original livery which was taken in the mid sixties in Eastbourne where I think the passengers had taken a lunch break on their way to Swanage. The traditional East Kent colours look superb on this style of bodywork but then they suited just about any style available at the time, we were fortunate in the south east in having three companies namely Southdown, M&D and East Kent all with superbly elegant liveries plus Eastbourne Corporation with their deep blue and primrose colours all within a relatively small area.
East Kent had three batches of Beadle bodied Reliances delivered in 1957 the 32 seat tour coaches with centre entrances in the photo No’s MJG 41-52 followed by No’s MJG 285-300 with 37 seat front entrance bodies which bore a resemblance to the Rochester integral design and lastly No’s NFN 327-349 with 41 seat bodies similar to 285 etc at least some of the later type even had a rear destination screens used when on express work, attached is a photo taken again in the mid sixties of NFN 341 on Margate sea front alas can’t see the rear panels.
NFN 341
I think that these Reliances along with Southdowns Tiger Cubs were the only underfloor engined chassis bodied by Beadle if you discount the Commer powered integrals of which incidentally East Kent had three KFN 250-252 delivered in 1955 with 41 seat front entrance dual purpose bodies if I am wrong no doubt someone on the site will put me in the picture.
I knew that I had to have forgotten something namely the Sentinels, but an even greater omission considering that I lived nearby is of course the Maidstone & District’s batch of Reliances delivered in 1957 No’s SO 223-239 reg No’s YKR 223-239 with B42F bodies. I am open to further correction.
Diesel Dave
06/01/13 – 07:04
The NFN is shown with the livery used when downgraded for bus work. Originally the livery was all-over red with an ivory waistband – which didn’t stop them being used on bus routes, of course.
Photographer unknown – if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
H W Hunter and Sons 1962 AEC Reliance 2MU3RV Plaxton Highway B45F
Still with H W Hunter. Looking a bit grubby with the days road dirt still wet, VTY 360 was new to Hunter’s in April 1962 and was their second AEC 2MU3RV Plaxton Highwayman B45F, the first being TJR 573 delivered in May the previous year. If my records are correct it was also the last new single deck bus they ever bought. In common with many bus/coach operators they still purchased a couple of new coaches, but rather than buses they opted D/Ps which gave them a far greater degree of flexibility as to how they could utilize them, one result was that ‘certainly in this area’ they were possibly the first to use Volvo’s on ordinary stage carriage work.
Thanks for posting, Ronnie. Would I be right in thinking this was the Plaxton answer to the BET standard design?
Pete Davies
05/02/13 – 16:31
Plaxton tended to plough their own furrow and didn’t get terribly BET until the Derwent. I was told, or read, that the Highway was based on Roe’s standard underfloor single deck design.
David Oldfield
06/02/13 – 07:19
Thank you, David.
Pete Davies
06/02/13 – 07:19
I don’t find myself aware of any echoes of Roe design here – their roughly contemporary design tended still to have a flat cantrail panel above the windows, in the style of this Sheffield bus www.old-bus-photos.co.uk/one Was there however some influence from the Leyland Royal Tiger bus, with the inset window pans and the chrome flash right round the bus at headlight level? www.old-bus-photos.co.uk/two
Alan Murray-Rust
06/02/13 – 08:40
Source “Plaxton – 100 years” (Stewart J Brown). The Highway was introduced in 1957 at the request of OK Motor Services and based on a contemporary Roe design….. (illustrated in the book on page 37).
David Oldfield
07/02/13 – 14:02
David the original Derwent design as used by West Riding was a heavy looking bus with a very plain front there are shots of it on www.sct61.org.uk
Chris Hough
08/02/13 – 09:05
Yes Chris, that’s what happens when you’re imprecise with your use of language. I am aware of that – the Derwent in it’s time had a number of incarnations. Sorry for being lazy!
www.old-bus-photos.co.uk/