United Automobile Services 1955 Bristol LS5G ECW B45F
Photographed at the Corner Cafe Scarborough is a bus version of the Bristol LS5G owned by United Automobile, there has been two coach versions on this site before click the Bristol LS link below to view them. United had large numbers of one man operated single deck vehicles as it had many country routes and a lot of countryside between the towns it serviced. Keeping costs down by one man operation and light vehicles like the LS using less diesel meant country routes could be maintained.
Lovely to see this excellent picture. United did indeed have many Bristol LS types on country routes before they gave way to the later MW. I have heard it said that wherever you were – from Berwick-on-Tweed all the way down to Bridlington – a United LS was certain to pull up at your bus stop, given time!
Nice also to see the Corner Cafe. It has been a favourite image on Scarborough postcards throughout the decades – nearly always with a United vehicle parked at the terminus nearby! Sadly, when I visited the resort last autumn, the cafe had finally been demolished to make way for a new development of flats. The end of an era indeed.
United Automobile Services 1950 Bristol K6B ECW H30/26R
Here we have a line up of three United Automobile buses in Scarborough bus station. the one in the centre is as the specification above having a Bristol AVW 8.1 litre six cylinder diesel engine. In 1965 all United double decker buses had the Bristol engine, 20 had been converted from Gardner 5LW engine I think they needed the power of the Bristol engine. The single decker on the left is a 1965 Bristol SUL4A registration CHN 3C fleet number S3 with an ECW B36F body. I think United only had five of these lightweight vehicles mainly used on lightly trafficked routes. There was two types of Bristol SU the SUS (Small Underfloor Short) and the SUL (Small Underfloor Long) both versions were powered by an Albion 4.1 litre, four cylinder diesel engine and had a 5 speed synchromesh gearbox The bus on the right or should I say half a bus is a 1956 Bristol LS5G registration 637 CHN fleet number U237 with an ECW B41F body. There is a much better shot of a United Bristol LSG here.
28/10/15 – 13:22
NHN906 was the last surviving Bristol K6B in the United fleet. There were half a dozen of them at Scarborough for many years for use on the town services there. After they were displaced by new FLFs in the mid-sixties, they moved north to Northumberland. BH1 &2 (NHN 901/2) went to Whitley Bay where they were mainly used on the Whitley Bay town service. BH3-6 (NHN 903-6) went to Ashington. When United renumbered their fleet into an all numerical system at the beginning of 1969, there were only two survivors, BH1 & 6 which became 51 & 52. NHN 901 probably never operated with it’s new number. It was still in service in December 1968, but a few days into the new year, I noted that it was parked out of use behind the depot at Whitley Bay. NHN906 at continued for a few more months at Ashington. I occasionally saw it in the 444 from Bedlington to Ashington via North Blyth. It also sometimes appeared as a substitute for an FLF on the Newcastle services. It appears to have been taken out of service in June 1969.
John Gibson
29/10/15 – 06:21
Small correction to the original text. The SU had a five speed constant mesh (not synchromesh) gearbox. Behind the apparent uniformity of vehicle types in the Tilling fleets of the time lay a difference between operators in the engine choice. Some would not countenance anything other than a Gardner in double deck and large saloon orders. Others were happy to accept the Bristol engine which was cheaper to buy and speedier in delivery. Gardners were highly sought after by many manufacturers, and output was not particularly high. In retrospect, it testifies to the ultra conservative iron grip that Hugh Gardner maintained upon the company that production methods barely altered for over 50 years from the introduction of the LW series in 1931. Given the apparent insatiable demand for the Patricroft products, Gardner rested on its laurels, and no real effort to increase output was properly addressed. Back then, the idea that Gardner would ultimately cease to exist was inconceivable.
Mansfield District Traction Company Limited 1954 Bristol LS6G ECW C39F
This shot is a touch on the yellow side but I think it is worth posting as this vehicle had quite a history having had six owners in its lifetime that I have been able to find out about.
Thanks to the Bristol SU website for the following information.
06/54 – Mansfield District Traction fleet no 205
01/68 – Eastern Counties Omnibus fleet no LS998
02/72 – Gosport & Fareham Omnibus fleet no 33
02/74 – North Downs Rural Transport
07/74 – Ives Weston-on-Trent
02/75 – Kingfisher Weston-on-Trent
02/76 – Out of service I presume it went to scrap at this point although I could be wrong, if I am please leave a comment. Either way just short of 22 years service was a good innings, just goes to show how well built buses were back then “they don’t build them like that anymore I’m afraid”. It would be interesting to know how many miles were on the clock and whether it still had its original engine even if it had been rebuilt a few times.
To view a list of Bristol vehicle abbreviations click here.
The longevity of a PSV of this era was of course determined by the willingness and capability of the operator to prepare the vehicle for its’ CoF examination. Buses didn’t have a conventional MoT as they now do, instead the bus came new with a 7 year CoF at the expiry of which a recertification was required. The length of the next CoF was determined by the work done to the bus in preparation for the inspection. Most big operators brought the buses into their central works and overhauled them leading to the issue of a long second ticket after which the cycle was repeated with the tickets getting shorter each time. The introduction of freedom from defect type MoT’s made this system obsolete
Andrew
12/11/11 – 06:17
I was the Managing Director of Kingfisher Coaches Ltd, and feel most embarrassed to confirm that Bristol MW PNN 774 was sent for scrap on my orders. If only I had realised that it was so interesting to so many enthusiasts I would have donated it gladly. It was running perfectly well and had given us outstanding service, but it was almost out of C.O.F. and the upholstery was very shabby. But the reason for quick disposal was the D.O.E. examiner was on my back wanting to inspect it and not being very popular with him he did not approve of any bus or coach over 10 years old. Sorry folks.
Robert K. Walker
12/11/11 – 14:47
In an old British Transport production ‘A Ticket to Ride’ made in 1953, one of the films is about visiting the Peak District, does anyone know if the MW coach shown a few times around Ladybower Reservoir and at the start leaving Grindleford for Hathersage is a Midland General or a Mansfield District vehicle, there are also some other shots of North Western saloons both in Matlock, then passing the winking man rock above Leek and in Buxton, quite a good film.
Roger Broughton
13/11/11 – 07:56
One unusual feature about Mansfield District was that they took over an independent in 1958 which gave them three Duple bodied AEC Reliances which had originated with Creamline of Bordon. I believe that these may have been the first Reliances to enter a Tilling fleet. Even though Mansfield District was a majority AEC fleet at the time, they didn’t last that long, I’ve often thought they must have been superior to the LS’s as coaches, but perhaps MDT didn’t like the thought of having third hand vehicles in the fleet!
Chris Barker
13/11/11 – 10:52
Shrug off your guilt, Robert, you weren’t to know. Preserved buses, like all memorabilia, often survive as much on pure luck as planning. But don’t go out alone on dark nights for a few weeks!
Chris Hebbron
14/11/11 – 07:58
In the early to mid 1970s I used to work for North Downs at weekends, and drove this LS from time to time. I recall that it was quite a nice machine, and tackled the climb on the A25 up to Newlands Corner in fine style. I don’t agree that the Reliance with the AH470 would have been a better coach – the Gardner had much better torque characteristics than the AEC, which permitted higher gearing to offset the limited 1700rpm governed engine speed, and both types had five speed synchromesh gearboxes.
Roger Cox
14/11/11 – 17:51
That is a very interesting list Stephen, because I believe that the original routes were simply 100 up for town services and 200 up for ‘country area’ routes. The others were a result of takeovers, 1&7, 2 and 3 were ex Ebor, who used these numbers, 4 was ex Bevan and Barker, who didn’t. Some time after this list, some numbers in the 70’s were added as a result of an agreement with East Midland to co-ordinate services on the Mansfield – Warsop – Shirebrook road, hence 4 disappeared. One thing I found recently among my possessions was a complete list of destinations from an MDT blind and also a complete list of via points which I achieved (from a Lodekka) by stepping up, turning the handle, stepping down to write, then repeating the process one display at a time! Unfortunately I wasn’t quite sure which routes some of them appertained to although some town services were so short, they didn’t warrant a via point.
Chris Barker
15/11/11 – 07:10
Picking up on Roger’s point, here is a widespread belief that Gardner engines didn’t make good coaches, but I wonder if it’s more that both designing them and driving them required a different mindset. Most coaches get into top gear relatively early and then achieve high speed by revving the engine faster than they would in the intermediate gears. But I recently had a ride on the preserved ex-Eastern Scottish Alexander M type Seddon Pennine 7, which was a revelation. The 6HLXB engine is governed at 1850rpm. Top gear (6th) came in at what seemed to be about 62mph, and according to Wikipedia the theoretical top speed of these was 87!
Peter Williamson
15/11/11 – 15:59
Although I personally prefer the RELH6L the RELH6G was a superb beast. I have ploughed the motorways as a passenger of many RELH6Gs and they were always man enough for the job.
David Oldfield
16/11/11 – 07:27
On the subject of Gardner engines, Cambus/Viscount (now part of Stagecoach) where I worked for a while in the 1990s, had a trio of 1988 vintage Optare bodied Olympians powered by the turbocharged 6LXCT engine. One, E502 LFL, was allocated to Oundle depot for the X65 Peterborough – Northampton service, but when it went into Peterborough for overhaul, it occasionally found its way on to other services in that city before it went back to its proper home. I well recollect a few occasions of driving this bus on the 351 service between Peterborough and Huntingdon, which followed the old dual carriageway A1 (now obliterated by the four lane A1M). This vehicle, which had the Leyland G2 gearbox, could reach an indicated speed of 70mph without great difficulty, though stopping the thing was altogether another matter in which prayer played a part!
Roger Cox
16/11/11 – 07:27
I should point out that my comment about MDT’s acquired Reliances was more in relation to their internal appeal rather than their mechanical propensities! However, since the discussion has moved this way, it would seem appropriate to mention that Mansfield’s sister company, Midland General took three RELH6G’s in 1964, registered 1384 -1386 R. I think there has been confusion about their classification ever since which I will attempt to put right. 1385/1386 R had dual purpose seats identical to their DP bus shell MW’s, also a mixture of sliding and hopper ventilators on each side window and semi-automatic transmission, they were officially DP51F. 1384 R, however was a very different machine, it had 49 coach seats, fixed side windows and forced air ventilation and a manual gearbox. Now they may have been delivered all same and this one altered later by MGO, I don’t know, but I was fortunate enough to travel on it a couple of times and boy could it go! The ride was exhilarating to say the least and amazingly quiet too! Does anyone know if there were many other manual box RE’s? In my humble opinion, the ECW coach bodied Bristol RE, when fitted with it’s very ample destination display, electric two piece doors and wrap-around screens was one of the finest vehicles ever to run on British roads, leaving out top link coaching work but for motorway express duties, never bettered even to this day!
Chris Barker
16/11/11 – 16:07
All early REs were manual, semi-autos only came in with the Series 2 (allowing for a few at the changeover). The early RELH/ECW (most of which were Gardners) were unassailable for their quiet, smooth ride – a perfect long distance coach.
David Oldfield
14/06/12 – 18:22
Roger Broughton asks about the bus in the British Transport Film. It’s Mansfield District 201 (PNN 770) from the same 1954 batch as the above vehicle.
Southern National Omnibus Company 1953 Bristol LS6G ECW C41F
Seen heading along York Place, Harrogate at the end of a Trans-Pennine run is Southern National 1299 (OTT 98), a 1953 Bristol LS6G with ECW C41F coachwork. Resplendent in iconic Royal Blue livery, this coach was part of the last batch to be built with the traditional Royal Blue roof-mounted luggage rack, which was accessed by a set of foldaway steps at the rear of the vehicle. It is a fine example of the underfloor-engined Royal Blue fleet operational in the 1950’s and 1960’s, and it is good to see 1299 wearing its original ‘dark roof’ version of the livery once again. (In 1958, with the arrival of the MW coaches, the livery was altered to a half blue/half cream layout, with dark blue up to waist rail level, and cream above). The 1953 batch of coaches for operation on Royal Blue services were also the last to display ‘Royal Blue Coach Service’ illuminated panels above the side windows. Subsequent deliveries of LS and MW coaches sported the more usual curved roof glasses in the cant rail panels instead.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Brendan Smith
12/01/14 – 07:47
Despite the registration there was nothing OTT about this. Rather understated luxury and quality with the 6LW offering a long legged, relaxed, lope in the pre motorway era.
David Oldfield
12/01/14 – 11:12
Thanks for posting, Brendan. I have read in different places of the shape caused by the presence of the rooftop luggage rack as being “Camel Back”. Rather flattering to a camel, perhaps!
Pete Davies
12/01/14 – 13:04
There was always something special about Royal Blue coaches and these last-gasp versions of the traditional style are no exception. One point, were the roof racks ever used?
Chris Hebbron
13/01/14 – 08:44
I thought you might like to add this picture to the current OTT 98 thread as it shows a similar preserved vehicle but in the cream roof colours.
Ken Jones
13/01/14 – 08:44
The roof luggage carriers were used – I have a copy of a picture (not my copyright though!) of the driver loading luggage on LS car 1292 – in the ‘cream roof’ era, so post 1958. The reason for the livery change was not ‘cosmetic’ but a practical one – I will look out the exact details in next day or two !
Peter Delaney
13/01/14 – 09:46
I’m wondering whether this is 1297, OTT 96. Both 1297 and 1299 are preserved but 1297 went to the Netherlands at some stage.
Geoff Kerr
Close up of registration and fleet number of posted shot.
13/01/14 – 11:25
I thought this photo may be of interest. It is OTT 98 after sale to the dealer W. North, Sherburn-in-Elmet, seen at their premises during the Summer of 1970. It was quite a shock to see this here, as I had shortly before been on holiday in North Devon and seen these LS’s still working hard for a living. It was still in splendid condition here and I remember hoping that it would find a suitable. sympathetic new owner. At the time it seemed far too modern to be considered for preservation. Fortunately OTT 96 is still with us.
John Stringer
13/01/14 – 13:45
Thanks – it does look a bit like 96 though!
Geoff Kerr
I must admit I did have to go back to the original shot to be sure.
13/01/14 – 15:17
Both 1297 (OTT 96) and 1299 (OTT 98) are still with us. The former is in The Netherlands as part of the Leek collection at Monickendam, and OTT 98 is now part of the West Country Historic Omnibus and Transport Trust collection, having had a complete engine rebuild in 2007 and was hand painted back into original 1953 livery in 2009. I am delighted to be 1299’s current custodian and sponsor. I look forward to reading Peter’s explanation as to the reasons for the change in roof colour in 1957. Incidentally all this 1953 batch, 1293-9 and 2200-2, were down-seated to C39F following mid-life refurbishment at ECW Lowestoft, in 1961, and 1299 remains so.
John Grigg
13/01/14 – 16:42
Just a reminder you can see a picture of OTT 98 and one of OTT 43 from 2012 on this site at the Royal Blue Run gallery.
Ken Jones
13/01/14 – 17:40
I attach a photo of 1299 taken in the early 70’s which was taken on Madeira Drive Brighton following a HCVC London-Brighton run. This shows it with a blue roof as it is now preserved so it seems that the roof has changed colour a number of times over the years, I agree that the blue roof looks better but this is purely a personal preference I know.
Diesel Dave
14/01/14 – 08:22
The ‘incident’ which led to the change in colour of the roof of Royal Blue cars was as below:- On August 2nd 1957, the 2.35 pm summer only service from Plymouth to Bournemouth, was a Bristol L coach – probably car 1239 – being driven John Whitlock when its roof was grazed by a plane landing at Exeter Airport. The undercarriage hit the top of the coach, breaking both skylights. He drove to the control tower, with the somewhat shaken passengers on board, and reported the incident. The pilot apparently had not seen a coach, and following his reporting the incident, there was an official enquiry, which John was asked to attend. The incident was reported in the local Exeter newspaper, the ‘Express and Echo’, on 3rd August 1957, under the heading “Bus roof ‘skimmed’ by plane” and “Observers ‘saw nothing unusual’”. From the newspaper account we learn that the coach was going along the Exeter – Honiton road, when the roof was “’skimmed’ by a twin engined Mosquito going in to land at Exeter Airport. The plane landed without a mark on it and the coach had a slight dent in the roof. The bus driver felt a slight bump. As there were no other cars on the road at the time he assumed it must have something to do with a plane that had passed low over him. Wing Cmdr. R J B Pearse, manager of the airport, said that a slight dent was found in the roof of the bus, but when an inspection was made of the Mosquito there was not a mark to be found, either on the tyres or the paintwork. The pilot said he had felt nothing at all. ‘We can only assume that the plane did touch the bus’ said Wing Cmdr Pearse. The pilot’s name was withheld”. The subsequent enquiry resulted in an accident report card being filed with the RAF, and that adds further information. The aircraft was a Mosquito Mk 35, number TA724, of the 3/4 CAACU, part of 61 Group, Home Command. The accident occurred at 16.55 on 2nd August 1957, at the end of a 2 hour 10 minute flight out and back from Exeter. This particular flight had been for Army firing practice. The pilot, 35 year old Flt Lt K Munson, was experienced, with 195 flying hours on Mosquitos, and 1567 flying hours overall. The lighting conditions were described as ‘dull’. At the end of the exercise, the pilot had joined the circuit and landed, but he was totally “unaware that his aircraft had struck the single decker bus (sic) travelling on the A30 road which runs adjacent to the airport”. The report also records that “damage was caused to the roof of the bus. No damage was sustained to the aircraft.” It was considered that the organisation ‘at station level’ was at fault, as they knew of the danger of a collision between aircraft and vehicles, but had “made inadequate efforts to have remedial action taken.” The A30 passed across the approach to runway 13, at a distance of 50 yards. There were no traffic signals or warning notices on the road, and there was a tall hedge bounding the road which “would effectively prevent the pilot seeing the bus and vice versa”. No blame was attached to the pilot (who was making a low approach in order to touch down early on a short runway) or the driver. As a result, 150 yards of the runway 13/31 were ‘sterilized’, and a local flying order issued to warn pilots of the dangers likely to be met on the approach to runway 13, whilst the roof of Royal Blue coaches was changed from dark blue to cream, to make them more conspicuous from the air.
Peter Delaney
14/01/14 – 11:48
I’ve just checked my original his-res image, and it definitely is OTT 98, confirmed by my notes taken at the time I wasn’t aware that it was also preserved – that’s nice to know.
John Stringer
14/01/14 – 12:27
The give away in the photo that it can only be OTT 98 is that the words “Dorset Transport Circle” are shown in the “via” part of the destination display. DTC owned this coach for well over 30 years and rallied it extensively for most of that time before generously donating it to WHOTT in 2006.
United Automobile Services 1955 Bristol LS6B ECW DP39F
Waiting in Glasgow, exact location unknown, BUE2 is being prepared for departure on the service 14 (later 515) to Whitley Bay. The service ran once a day in winter, and twice a day in summer months. It was a long drawn out affair with a total running time of about 9 hours. A joint operation between SMT and United, vehicles from either end of the route would meet at Galashiels where a refreshment stop was taken, the crews would then swap vehicles and return to their own depot, the vehicles would carry on and return the following day. An Express service also operated via a shorter route, the running time on that was about 5 hours, and generally, the crews worked the whole route returning the same day.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye
29/05/14 – 07:5129/05/14 – 07:51
The location looks like Port Dundas Rd once the terminus for many long distance services to Glasgow.
Phil Blinkhorn
30/05/14 – 13:11
Is that and ECW bodied Daimler owned by Alexanders at the top left hand corner of the picture and an S.M.T. A.E.C Regent to the right of the picture?
Stephen Bloomfield
02/06/14 – 10:40
These were beautiful vehicles, good looking, great livery (an example here) and comfortable seats. They also looked good in later life in red livery. The only disappointment was that to me the sound of the Bristol engine never seemed right in an LS, the majority having Gardner engines, which sounded wonderful.
Don McKeown
21/08/20 – 05:32
I have just come across this photo of what by now was U302 downgraded to bus work but still smart and comfortable. The photo was taken in Ripon in July 1968, on a Saturday I think and probably a market day service. Does anyone know where the X99 originated and was it a Saturday only service?
Ian Wild
21/08/20 – 05:54
The X99 was the Middlesbrough to Leeds and Liverpool service. U302 in the summer of 1968 was allocated to Middlesbrough. Perhaps it was a duplicate. There looks to be a similar vehicle standing behind U 302 on the 128 which was the Ripon to Scarborough service, which has been mentioned elsewhere here. That may be either U313 or U315, which were both Ripon cars.
John Gibson
21/08/20 – 06:00
United Automobile Services was a joint operator in the “Tyne-Tees-Mersey” pool which included service X99 which ran from Middlesbrough to Leeds via Stockton, Northallerton, Thirsk, Ripon and Harrogate. In earlier years there had been through services continuing to Huddersfield, Oldham, Manchester, Eccles and Liverpool. It was latterly divided at Leeds although the appropriate journeys travelling via Eccles continued to run as service X99. Quite possibly since the photograph was taken on a Saturday the bus would more than likely have been on a duplicate working into Ripon. Despite being long distance services the pool services had numerous intermediate pick-up points and provided a local service over many sections of the overall journeys. The timetables and routes for the pool services (1932, 1950s, 1960s and 1970s) may be seen via this link: //www.ipernity.com/doc/
David Slater
21/08/20 – 06:06
I would suggest that this was a vehicle off the X99 Tyne/Tees – Mersey, Middlesbrough to Liverpool service. This was possibly a Duplicate from Leeds or Middlesbrough ending up at Ripon. There was however a 1955 journey from Middlesbrough (Daily) which terminated in Ripon at 2155, so it could be that. (2 hours not bad for an Express service, at best you could do that journey in one hour by car, no wonder the Bus/Coach industry lost passengers to the Motor Car.) I remember once when I was part timing for North Western/National Express, out of Manchester, having operated a Dup from Manchester to Leeds, being asked by the West Yorkshire RCC Inspector at Wellington Street, to carry on to Ripon with passengers, for there only, as the service car had burst. I suitably obliged. I can not remember if it suited the Conductor or not, but the WYRCC Inspectors at Wellington Street were a good bunch and it was hard to say no. I can find no reference to an X99 service in the UniteD timetable which covers Ripon area.
This Bristol LSX5G with chassis number LSX.001 was new to Bristol Tramways in 1950 and has an Eastern Coachworks B42D body numbered 4978. It was, as its chassis number suggests, a prototype. Seen here at the Bristol Waterfront Running Day 22/05/2011.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Les Dickinson
07/06/15 – 10:12
Nice, Les! Another for me to delete from my list of possible future submissions . . .
Pete Davies
08/06/15 – 07:25
This image is scanned from my original print so not great, however it is a piece of history. The two prototypes were together for the first time in 54 years here at Showbus 2005. The red one is Eastern Counties LL744 and registered MAH 744 with chassis number LSX002 and Eastern Coachworks B42F body 4255. Not a great shot but I thought it worth sharing.
Les Dickinson
08/06/15 – 16:10
I hadn’t realised until I saw the LS at this angle just how American are the lines of this bus enhanced perhaps by the rear doors.
Orla Nutting
09/06/15 – 06:03
Orla, just seen this and my thoughts were exactly the same. They would not looked out of place in any US city in the 50s and 60s.
Phil Blinkhorn
10/06/15 – 06:41
You can find the same in cars of that era. It’s really the front end with the decorative bits and anti-glare windscreen that does it- but what is the central light for? A foglight was at a lower level, usually nearside, illuminating the kerb. This is higher on (2) and in the middle?
Joe
10/06/15 – 08:24
I think that it was a fashionable idiosyncrasy at the time. Think of contemporary cars like the then Rover 75 and Austin A90 Atlantic. They never really caught on and eventually were phased out by Rover and the A90, though very eye catching, didn’t appeal to either the UK or American market (where the 1948 Tucker ‘car of the future’ was similarly equipped). Similarly in France the early ’50’s Panhard Dyna had a central oblong foglight in the bumper but these too were designed out on later models (pretty impractical anyway given French street parking practices!).
Orla Nutting
21/06/15 – 05:52
Nice photos Les, and its lovely to see the two LS prototypes together again as you say. They are both interesting vehicles in their own right. The ‘Bristol Bristol’ (LSX001) was originally powered by an experimental horizontal version of the Bristol AVW engine – this experimental power unit being designated XWA, with the production version becoming the LSW. A Gardner 5HLW engine was fitted in 1953, along with 8ft wide axles in lieu of the original 7ft-6″ ones, and the bus was converted to single-door layout in 1956. (It’s great to see that LSX001 has been restored to original B42D configuration, which must have involved a fair bit of time, effort and money to say the least, and it is a credit to everyone concerned). Relating to the Eastern Counties Bristol (LSX002), this vehicle was fitted with a Gardner 4HLW engine from new. Generally LS vehicles were powered by either Bristol LSW, or Gardner 5HLW/6HLW engines, but ECOC did take delivery of further LS4Gs, but I believe this was a small batch of five vehicles. Both prototypes had aluminium alloy underframes, to reduce weight, but production LS underframes were of pressed steel, which was easier to weld and was less expensive. Despite the use of a steel underframe however, the LS in bus form with Gardner 5HLW engine tipped the scales at around 6.25 tons, which is very creditable. Economy was also good, with Southern and Western National’s LS5G buses apparently averaging 15mpg on country services – aided no doubt by 5-speed overdrive gearboxes.
Brendan Smith
07/06/16 – 18:46
The memory is probably going, but I think I recall Bristol LS coaches prior to the introduction of the MW. These had deeper windscreens with rounded corners and I always thought them to be a prettier body. I’m remembering back to Southampton coach station in the 1960’s(that milk machine had the best strawberry milk on the South Coast!)and I am sure that Royal Blue, Southern National & possibly Hants & Dorset examples used to visit there. Do we have any photos?
David field
08/06/16 – 06:01
The handsome early style of ECW coach body for the Bristol LS that David describes appeared in 1952. Royal Blue had a batch of fourteen of this type delivered in that year with C41F bodywork (though the LS was an integral vehicle, of course). They were all reseated to C39F in 1960. Here is LTA 867, fleet number 1279, leaving Victoria Coach Station for Bournemouth in the summer of 1961.
Roger Cox
09/06/16 – 06:47
Roger, would this particular version of the LS coach body be the one where the front windscreens wound down into the dash panel? There doesn’t appear to be any other method of opening and I believe it was still a requirement at the time that the drivers windscreen, at least, should have the capability. I imagine it wouldn’t be possible to wind them down to a point where the wipers could become trapped on the inside of the glass!
Chris Barker
09/06/16 – 16:52
Yes, the LS coach windscreens do wind down into the dash panel. Those who admire this style of Royal Blue coachwork may like to note that one of this style is expected on the 2016 Royal Blue run – details at //www.tvagwot.org.uk/event-royalblue.htm. That style only applied to the 1952 built LS coaches – those built from 1953 onwards having the windscreens made of two flat sections, the upper one being hinged at the top, in the same way as the first style of MW coach body.
Peter Delaney
09/06/16 – 16:53
Yes windows wind part way down. One of the batch took part in this years London-Brighton run MOD 973 I think.
Roger Burdett
10/06/16 – 05:37
They must have been the biggest panes of glass ever to have been wound down (and up) – pretty heavy, I would guess. And one of the very few (perhaps only) winding windows to have windscreen wipers, too.
petras409
18/09/19 – 06:58
Saw NHU 2 heading west along the A38 at South Brent this morning. It followed me up the slip road at Wrangaton before turning off towards Kingsbridge. As she passed me on the slip road she looked absolutely superb and in really good mechanical condition a tribute to her owners.
Thomas Bowden
29/07/22 – 06:05
I have just found your interesting site. Such wonderful memories of the 1970’s and being a bus ‘spotter’ living in Hedingham & District land. Referring to NHU 2, I remember seeing it in Cirencester in the late 1970’s and photographing it in a very sorry state, along with other old Bristol buses. Many, many other photos I have, but all taken with a Zenith E, and none digitalised. Bristol LS 476 BEV was a favourite school bus, to me it has a sublime engine note, quite different from the other LS’s and MW’s. I can recall it quite clearly even now. Thank you for the pictures.
Stephen Gifford
30/07/22 – 05:58
Stephen, 476 BEV was delivered to Eastern National as its N0.400 in January 1955, and from information on Gerry Tormey’s wonderful Bristol Vehicles website, it was converted to Commer TS3 two-stroke Diesel engine. Presumably this was carried out by ENOC, although I’m happy to be corrected on this. 400 was converted to Gardner 5HLW engine in April 1960, renumbered 1220 in August 1964, and withdrawn by ENOC in January 1966, passing to Hedingham & District (D R MacGregor) the following month. H&D withdrew 476BEV in March 1973, and it passed to Paul Sykes (dealer) the same month, presumably for scrap. I’m quite envious of you riding on a TS3-engined LS bus Stephen, as it must have sounded gorgeous, although perhaps a bit raucous (or should that be racy?) compared to the usual 5-pot Gardner.
Brendan Smith
31/07/22 – 08:47
Can’t find any TS3 Commer engine’d buses/coaches, but there are several videos of such lorries, if you want to hear that fruity sound again!
Chris Hebbron
01/08/22 – 08:18
Thank you Brendan and Chris for your follow up information. I always had a feeling there was something special about 476 BEV. I have many memories of Eastern National Halstead and Braintree depots in the 60’s and 70’s and travelling to ‘exotic’ locations like Colchester and Southend with my bus spotting friend. It is so interesting to find your site.
Here we have one of the two Bristol LS that operated with other than a Gardner engine. Bristol Omnibus Bristol LSA registration UHT 494 fleet number 2884 seen on October 6, 1962 lasted in service until 1968 with an AEC horizontal engine. Much of its in-service time was marked by the engine stalling as drivers who were used to Gardner power were caught unaware of the lower low speed torque! The other non-Gardner was registration UHT 493 fleet number 2883 a Bristol LSTS3 which had a Rootes TS3 diesel which was not particularly reliable and was soon back to a Gardner 5HLW as was the removal of its rear two doors.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Geoff Pullin
08/02/16 – 10:58
These two LS were in effect test beds for the engine manufacturers. No. 2884 is seen here on the last day of Clevedon town service 25D, which was then incorporated into the main Bristol – Clevedon 25/25A service. It carries the BRISTOL block lettering introduced in the early 1960s.
Geoff Kerr
09/02/16 – 08:30
My word, we learn something new every day on this wonderful Forum. I had no idea till now that any Bristol LSs had ever been powered by such unfamiliar units, even experimentally!!
Chris Youhill
09/02/16 – 09:42
This is a surprise to me, too, Chris. Were these engines seriously considered as options for production machines, I wonder? Certainly, the limited output of Gardner units set against the high demand placed constraints upon the sales of several psv and lorry manufacturers. Bristol brought out its own engines to ease the situation, though the BVW doesn’t seem to have been produced in horizontal form. I can see that the AEC unit might have been a realistic option – when running properly it was a good performer – but the wet liner problems might have militated against its adoption in the LS. What engine was it – an AH410 or a 470? I think that Leyland was very reluctant to let anyone else have its engines at that time. I doubt that the TS3 two stroke would have been entirely suitable for the stop/start nature of bus work. Quite apart from the noise, the revs had to be kept high for it to work properly.
Roger Cox
09/02/16 – 15:16
Most LSs had either a Gardner 5HLW (saloons) or Gardner 6HLW (coaches), or the Bristol 6 cylinder horizontal version of the AVW engine. According to Alan Townsin, the non-standard AEC engine was a 410, as used in some Reliances of the period, and one of the prototypes had a Gardner 4LW, as well as the TS3 engined example. There was a horizontal version of the BVW engine – the BHW. And it was an example – first fitted in an MW used by the BCV works, it was later put into one of the RELH prototypes. The MW later had a Gardner 6HLW engine fitted before delivery to Red and White as a saloon, the RELH gained a Gardner 6HLX before entering service with West Yorkshire Road Car.
Peter Delaney
10/02/16 – 06:20
Don’t forget that there were several Bristol Ks and Ls with AEC engines, so it would not have been unreasonable to offer that manufacturer’s engines in the successor models.
Nigel Frampton
10/02/16 – 06:21
Well, this is even more interesting than many others which have delighted us on this forum! Thanks for submitting this, Geoff. I was aware of some Bristol buses with upright engines having AEC products where one might normally expect a Bristol or Gardner power unit, but horizontal ones? And a COMMER? You’ll have to excuse me – I must find a darkened room!
Pete Davies
10/02/16 – 06:21
Eastern Counties received the second prototype LS, MAH 744, which was powered by a 4HLW engine. Ever economically motivated, ECOC had taken a number of L4G saloons from the late 1930s, and in December 1952, took a couple of production dual purpose LS saloons with the 4HLW engine. These were use initially on express and excursion duties, though the performance must surely have been less than sparkling. Three more appeared in the fleet in May 1953, after which the 5HLW became the chosen Gardner powerplant for subsequent LS deliveries. The LS4G was not delivered to any other Tilling Group company. A number of BET companies specified the AH 410 engine for early AEC Reliance deliveries. The first Reliances bought by Aldershot & District, including the Strachans Everest bodied coaches, were all powered by the AH 410. Despite its modest capacity of 6.754 litres inherited from the 1935 “6.6” A172 (indirect injection) engine from which it was developed, the 98 bhp AH 410 would deliver a creditable road performance. It is extraordinary that AEC, with its significant resources, could never cure the wet liner problems with its 410, 470 and 590 engines. The much smaller Dennis company offered wet liner engines in petrol and diesel form from the mid 1930s, and these were trouble free. I have occasionally wondered how a Dennis O6 powered LS would have performed – the East Kent Lancet UF coaches were fliers and thoroughly reliable, but the idiosyncratic ‘O’ type gearbox was far from easy to use. Perhaps an arrangement between the two might then have permitted Dennis to use the Bristol five speed synchromesh gearbox in the Lancet. End of daydream!
Roger Cox
10/02/16 – 06:22
The early years of the Bristol LS were certainly interesting. The first two prototypes had aluminium alloy underframes, although production versions were of steel construction. The first prototype (LSX001) entered service with Bristol T&CC, and had a B42D body, and a horizontal version of the Bristol AVW engine. Designated the XWA, the horizontal Bristol engine became the LSW on LS production models. The second (LSX002) was powered by a Gardner 4HLW engine, and perhaps not too surprisingly was supplied to Eastern Counties. Bristol T&CC 2883 mentioned by Geoff was built in 1953 with an unfinished bodyshell, painted grey and used by Bristol for development work. It received a Commer TS3 two-stroke Diesel engine and was given the chassis designation LSTS3. It eventually entered service in the Bristol T&CC fleet as 2883(UHT493) in 1955 to B43D specification, but was fitted with a Gardner 5HLW engine in 1956. The LS6A (2884) shown in Geoff’s photo was also built in 1953, and similarly sported a grey-painted unfinished bodyshell, again used for development work. The engine chosen was AEC’s 6.75 litre AH410 unit (as offered in AEC’s Reliance and Monocaoch models), together with an AEC 5-speed gearbox. Like 2883, 2884 entered Bristol T&CC service in 1955, in this case to B45F configuration. Roger, I cannot think why Bristol chose the TS3 engine (aka ‘The Knocker’) as an experiment, as it was not really that popular in the wider bus world, although it did sound gorgeous, if a bit raucous, in Commer lorries. Maybe they saw potential for it powering lightweight buses such as the LS, due to the engine’s good power to weight ratio. The early TS3s developed 105bhp @ 2400rpm from only 3.26 litres, which was amazing at the time. The choice of an AEC engine and gearbox though could perhaps have been an attempt to woo London Transport. LTE had tried an early Bristol LS5G bus (Bristol T&CC 2828:PHW918 painted in Green Line livery), which must have been something of a culture shock to LT drivers used to buses with 6-cylinder engines, fluid flywheels and pre-selector gearboxes! It is perhaps not surprising that the LS5G was not popular with LT, so Bristol then fitted it with a Hobbs semi-automatic transmission. The LS5G returned to LT for around six months, but no orders followed, and on returning to Bristol 2828 was fitted with a standard Bristol gearbox. All fascinating stuff. It’s just a shame that most of us never had the opportunity of hearing the wonderous sound effects of an AH410 or TS3-engined LS, or for that matter, a semi-auto LS5G.
Brendan Smith
10/02/16 – 06:23
I am surprised to see that this bus has a “normal” destination display; Bristol Omnibus LSs (and other types) normally had a single blind showing destination, number and via points. The fairly common T-style display was adopted with the later MWs and F-series Lodekkas, although even then the display was non-standard because there were four service number tracks.
Don McKeown
10/02/16 – 09:20
The recent book by Martin Curtis and Mike Walker on BOC – The Green Years – includes details of the two LS buses 2883 and 2884 which had been used by ECW for body development and passed to the company in 1955. The former previously used as an unfinished shell had the standard company destination display fitted with the Commer engine soon replaced by a Gardner 5HLW.The latter retained its AEC engine throughout its life and was unique with the company for its “side by side” destination favoured by other NBC companies such as the adjoining Wilts and Dorset – apparently the body had been used by ECW in connection with the development of the Bristol SC which had of course a similar destination display. In 1967 it was also fitted with an MW-style grill – and lasted until 1968. There is a black and white photo of 2884 in the book seen leaving Marlborough St bus station on the 25B to Nailsea. A second depot photo by Peter Davey shows the grill fitted – most odd -by which time the destination blind had been reduced to a single line by masking tape. This is the first time I have seen a colour picture of 2884. Thanks.
Keith Newton
11/02/16 – 06:27
There is a dedicated posting for the two LS prototypes elsewhere on OBP (see link below), but I’m sure no one will mind me adding a picture here of NHU 2 taken at Duxford a few years ago. Bristol Tramways – Bristol LS – NHU 2 – 2800
Roger Cox
13/02/16 – 05:26
I would imagine that the attraction of the Commer TS3 would be its legendary fuel economy. If they’d put it into a coach instead of a bus, it might even have worked!
Peter Williamson
14/02/16 – 05:51
The TS3 two stroke was used in coaches – Beadle and Harrington both offered coach models with this engine.
Roger Cox
19/02/16 – 05:46
There was a second LS which ran with a Rootes TS3. Eastern National 476 BEV was delivered new in 1955 as an LS5G but was soon converted by ENOC to the above, presumably as a comparative trial. It was converted back to LS5G in 1960 and spent another six years with the company before being sold to Hedingham & District where it saw out its last few years.
Nigel Utting
03/03/16 – 15:48
So far as I was aware this chassis was coded LS6A, perhaps my original text was faulty! What a fascinating lot more information this has stirred up. I mentioned the horizontal BVW in my article on the Bristol RE. I was unaware that it had been used in an MW before that – but I bet it wasn’t turbo-charged at that time!
This photo probably shows the test bed, a rather bedraggled looking ‘experimental’ MW taken at BCV on March 3, 1963.
The 2884 destination layout looks much nicer to me than the other standards used by BTCC & BOC: the 18 in. high single aperture and the destination above route number display. There was a nice batch of vehicles with the intermediate 12 in. high single aperture display that looked just as pleasant to me as 2884. Thanks for further information about BOC displays on my 1963 MW5G submission, but I’m sure I saw W in use when the suffix letters were first introduced!
Geoff Pullin
12/01/17 – 09:10
There is (was?) a full page explanation of the short workings in the front of the Bristol Joint Services timetable for 1965. The introduction states that ‘The number of buses which carry destination equipment capable of showing numbers and letters together is being gradually increased’ – in other words, the replacement of single piece blinds by 4-track ‘T’ indicators. Exactly why a single piece display cannot show (e.g.) 9A instead of 9 for the Ashton Gate short working passes me by I’m afraid. Surely you just print the blind with 9A on it. The 4-tracks were a bit of overkill in some ways when you consider that the entire city fleet was being fitted with these displays when there were few workings which required them – 145A Henleaze Lake short working, the 236A extension to Brislington Trading Estate and journeys on 142,236 or 282 extended to Rodney Works, Patchway Bus Park or Shadow Factory were the only ones which actually needed all 4 tracks.
West Yorkshire Road Car Co 1954 Bristol LS5G ECW DP41F
Quite what this Harrogate based West Yorkshire LS5G was doing in Waterhouse Street, Halifax, in the summer of 1965 I am unsure, but it seems to be a curious choice of vehicle if it was on private hire duty. No doubt our Halifax experts will come up with a suggestion. MWY 226 was delivered to West Yorkshire’s Harrogate depot in July 1954 as a dual purpose vehicle and it then carried the fleet number EUG 15 (Express Underfloor Gardner). In March 1959 its role was downgraded to that of a bus with the new fleet number SUG 15 (Single deck Underfloor Gardner) in which guise, a trifle battered, it is seen here. It was still based at Harrogate when finally withdrawn in October 1968 thereafter passing into the hands of dealers.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
18/10/19 – 05:24
Although West Yorkshire‘s LS5Gs were renumbered from EUG to SUG, and repainted in the livery shown, they retained their dual purpose seats until some time in the sixties, so would have been suitable for a private hire job, especially if it was a summer Saturday. Many years ago Crosville charged a lower rate for private hires if a dual purpose vehicle was used rather than a coach. Perhaps West Yorkshire had a similar scheme?
Don McKeown
18/10/19 – 05:25
West Yorkshire never bought any new LS pure service buses, but they did eventually re-seat many of the dual-purpose vehicles with bus seats. Sixty-eight were received as LS5G’s with ECW DP41F bodies and they came in five batches from 1953 to 1958. All of them had no rear indicators and the front indicators were always of two side-by-side windows. Each of the five batches had slight body variations and this along with West Yorkshire’s “normal” policy of declassifying/ re-seating/ livery changes gave a visually mixed and varied picture.
Stuart Emmett
20/10/19 – 06:39
I think it made economic sense to buy saloons in DP form then as they became older to reseat and down grade them to buses. Although I would love to know where all the bus seats came from to facilitate this, presumably from older, withdrawn stock. A common nick name for the “SUG”s was “SLUGS” presumably due to the limited power produced by their five pot Gardners.
Mr Anon
21/10/19 – 06:07
ECW did some of the bus seat conversions Mr. Anon = a long way to/back from Lowestoft.
Stuart Emmett
28/10/19 – 06:57
Some fascinating memories, and how good it is to see the stalwarts getting some recognition. They were put to work on anything going. I used to work as a junior traffic clerk, latterly at Low Harrogate in the mid-60s, which was where tours and private hires were dealt with. There was no discount for using DPs instead of coaches. All quotes for hires were charged at the same mileage rate and the whole fleet for the allocation to Harrogate was particularly smart because it was Head Office. You should have seen the things which were hired out when the film “Sound of Music” was showing in Leeds! We were desperately short of vehicles and reckoned we could have hired out a tow truck. Private hire and tours were based in Montpelier Parade, Harrogate, which, if I remember correctly, had been completely refurbished some time around 1964.
There was one LS which stood out from the rest and was a product of West Yorkshire’s involvement with Cave-Brown-Cave. It seemed to work OK, but I remember one journey from Bradford to Harrogate on a dreeky damp day when this SUG had for some reason been put on the 53 service (probably working its way back to the depot it always worked from). It dripped and dribbled merrily down the inside of the windscreen.
David Rhodes
29/10/19 – 05:35
LWR 431 entered service in 1953 as EUG1 with a DP41F body and was delivered in the normal “express” livery of red with cream relief and this included the windscreen. Fitted with Cave Brown Cave heating in late 1954 or early 1955 or early 1957 (and also was reported as 1/1965!!!) but this was most likely to have been concurrent with being reseated in 1957 as SUG1. The CBC system was placed in the destination box compartment, so the destination box was moved to be below the windscreen. First was a very small box, then was, as seen, in the pix from David. Reseated as SUG1 by ECW as B45F in early 1957 and with no cream on the front windscreen. Renumbered SMG1 in April 1962 when fitted for OMO. Garaged at Pateley Bridge depot from 1956 to 1968 for the routes into Harrogate, it also regularly operated in the early 1960’s one return journey on route 51 to/from Bradford that left Harrogate at 0820 hours. Withdrawn in July 1969 and then to North dealers in November 1969.
United Automobile Services 1959 Bristol MW6G ECW DP39F
These dual purpose vehicles were purchased for the North East to London route it had coach seats and maybe a bit more leg room but apart from that it was still just a bus. I think when I took this photo in 1966 they had been moved on to shorter routes and replaced with something more suited for such a long distance. Dual purpose and coaches had a different livery in the United fleet as can be seen, it was actually a moss green and cream doesn’t show well on this photo better one coming soon.
It was Olive Green and Cream.These MW vehicles were used on the Newcastle to London services being replaced by RELH coaches.They were then used on other express services such as Newcastle to Scarborough, Newcastle to Lowestoft/Great Yarmouth and Newcastle to Edinburgh/Glasgow.Some of these MWs were then repainted into the red/cream dual purpose colours and some even went to the all red with cream waistband bus livery in their latter days being used then on local bus services.
Paul
The Olive green and cream United express livery was one of the most dignified and pleasing I’ve ever enjoyed seeing. When I worked for West Yorkshire RCC we had a running board connection in Harrogate on service 76 from Tadcaster to Skipton – “connection must be made with the United car for Liverpool due from Newcastle at 3.57pm.” I can still remember with delight the sight of the beautiful ECW bodied Leyland Royal Tigers (United had nine of them) as they purred into the platform behind us – invariably spot on time.
United Automobile Services 1959 Bristol MW5G ECW B45F
This is the bus version of a 1959 Bristol MW as opposed to the dual purpose one 6 buses ago, there is quick link to it here. This bus version has a 5 cylinder Gardner engine where the DP version had a 6 cylinder engine probable because of the long routes it was used on. The bus version also seats six more people than the DP version so not as comfy but then the journeys are not as long. Coming up in the next few days is a 1965 version of the MW with a very nice radiator grill design.
Full lists of Bristol and United codes can be seen here.
One of the unsung heroes of the bus and coach world, the MW just got on with the job and did it splendidly and without much fuss. Whereas the Lodekka drew attention with its step-free lowheight layout, and the RE in bus and coach form stole the limelight with its sheer size and elegance, the MW always seemed like an unassuming, reliable workhorse plodding away in the background. They were quiet and comfortable vehicles to ride in, especially when fitted with coach seats, and their Gardner engines ensured reliability and excellent fuel economy. Who could forget seeing United’s versions parked en masse in front of Richmond’s fine castle. A fine sight and sound indeed.
Brendan Smith
I have very happy memories of countless journeys to Hull and Bridlington from Leeds in these fine vehicles of the West Yorkshire Road Car Co.Ltd. The routes , 44/45/46, were jointly operated with East Yorkshire and so one was guaranteed a treat no matter which operator’s steed was on duty at the particular time.
