United Automobile – Bristol Lodekka FLF6B – 153 SHN – L153

United Bristol Lodekka

United Automobile Services
1964
Bristol Lodekka FLF6B
ECW H38/32F

I am not sure if the Lodekka actually had a version number i.e. I, II, III as the Regent III, V for example if any body knows please let me know. I did like these front entrance Lodekkas, the three things I remember most is the low step to get on, how brightly light the interior was at night but best of all was the whine of the engine, being used to AEC and Leylands at home the Bristol or Gardner engines were very different.

A full list including Bristol and United codes can be seen here.

The best United engine noises of all were the final batch of Bristol FLF Lodekkas delivered between January and May 1968. These F-registered machines were fitted with Gardner engines and were the first non-Bristol engined buses in the fleet. A Bristol-type whine was accompanied by a very powerful growl as I remember – very impressive. Also, this final batch were even brighter inside than normal. The interior panelling was finished in all-over cream formica as opposed to the normal dark green which made them feel light, spacious and very modern. They were lovely vehicles to ride on!

Incidentally, you may like to know that I am the author of a book on United’s buses entitled “One And Two Halves To The Clock”, which is my own story of growing up as a lad in the 1960s in Redcar, North Yorkshire – a seaside town deep in United territory!

Colin Plucknett

Although Lodekkas did not have version numbers as such (ie: Series I, II, III etc), they were split into two broad types – namely LD and F-Series models. The original LD (Low-height Double-decker) series had a slightly sunken lower deck gangway, with the pairs of seats either side of it in effect raised above it. A longer version (LDL) made its debut in 1957, but only a handful were built. As the Lodekka developed over the years, a revised model was introduced. Known as the F (Flat floor) Series, this had as the name implied, a flat floor throughout the lower deck. It was available in four variants: FS (Flat floor, Standard/Short chassis); FL (Flat Floor, Long chassis); FSF and FLF (as for FS and FL, but with the second F denoting a forward entrance chassis). Interestingly, the Bristol BVW engine fitted to many a Lodekka from 1958 onwards did have version numbers. As the BVW evolved, engines became known as Series I, II and III, and could be identified by the serial number stamped on the engine plate. BVW1xxx denoted Series I, BVW2xxx were Series II, and BVWs numbered 3xxx/4xxx etc were Series III.

Brendan Smith

There was a final variation to the FLF series: the very impressive 31ft FLF6LX models, with semi-automatic gearboxes, as operated by Eastern National. Several of them started life with coach seating for the X10 Southend-London Victoria service. In their heyday, around 24 of the 40 plus that ENOC had were allocated to the long 151/251 working from Southend to North London (Wood Green): a 2hr 40min one way trip! Also, one or two were regularly featured on the “On the Buses” TV show.
As a Conductor, these were wonderful vehicles to work on, especially on the long haul routes. I also believe the Scottish Bus Group had some as well. They’re the only two operators I know that used them. Any others, anyone?

Mike Harper

05/06/11 – 14:28

Eastern National’s FLF coaches certainly were real stunners Mike, and the 31-footers were handsome machines in either bus or coach form. As you rightly say, several of ENOCs Wood Green FLF6LXs featured in ‘On the Buses’ and were to many of us the real stars of the show. (I wonder if Reg Varney and Doris Hare realised just how privileged they were to work alongside such venerable icons!). At least AEV811F and AVW399F took part in the series masquerading as buses of the Luxton & District Traction Company – and wasn’t it a quirk of fate that the ‘AVW’ registration was on a Gardner-powered bus? You are correct in saying that only ENOC and the Scottish Bus Group took delivery of 31-footers – sadly for some reason they didn’t find favour anywhere else.
Relating to the semi-automatic FLFs, I was fortunate enough to ride on Leyland 0.600 engined Hants & Dorset example when on holiday with friends in the 1970s. I had not realised the FLF had either feature until it started up and set off. The pronounced gear whine puzzled me, and it was only in later years I found out this was due to extra gearing in the transmission line. On manual gearbox Lodekkas the gearbox was mounted directly behind the engine, with the drive being taken downwards and slightly to the offside by the design of the gearbox. However, as the semi-auto ‘box was of a bulkier nature, this unit was mounted on the offside of the chassis. The drive was taken downwards and to the offside from the back of the flywheel to the gearbox, using a train of gears – hence the unusual whine emitted. It certainly added a certain character!

Brendan Smith

United Automobile – Bristol Lodekka LD6B – 113 BHN – L13

United Automobile Services Brisol Lodekka

United Automobile Services
1956
Bristol Lodekka LD6B
ECW H33/27RD

Quite a few lists have United fleet numbers starting with a “B” which I presume denotes Bristol. But as one can plainly see in this photo there is no “B” just L13 does anybody know if United changed there fleet numbering system after 1966. This shot was taken July 1966 at Scarborough bus station.

A full list including Bristol and United codes can be seen here.

In answer to your question about United fleet renumbering regarding the excellent photo of the United LD6B: You are quite right – the B did stand for Bristol. Most of the fleet was renumbered from 1st November 1964 when the B was dropped from vehicle classifications. The company decided it was superfluous since the fleet was almost entirely Bristol by then!

Colin Plucknett

What a fine shot of what must surely be the perfect model of LD Lodekka. No Cave-Brown-Cave radiator intakes to spoil the curvaceous lines, the later cab door with straight rather than curved edge to the lower window glass, a three aperture destination box, and the ‘whiskers’ above the radiator grille. Even the front wheels are set at a jaunty angle! Very nice condition for a ten year old bus and a credit to United. (Good old Charlie Bullock will have driven it a few times around Scarborough in his day, no doubt).

Brendan Smith

Notts and Derby – Bristol Lodekka FLF6G – BRB 493B – 634

 

Notts and Derby
1964
Bristol Lodekka FLF6G
ECW H38/32F

Yet another photo where I can not remember where I was when I took it same as the previous W Gash photo I presume, any clues anybody?
I do have quite a few photos of Nottingham City Transport yet to come so probably a club trip down that way. The photo doesn’t show it too well but bus is in a very dark green and cream.


It’s Mount Street bus station in Nottingham. The buildings in the background are part of the old General Hospital. The bus livery is actually Dark Blue and Cream, the same as Midland General.

Patch


Thanks for that its nice to know where I have been. I am in two minds to change the shot to a black and white as it is very bad colour wise if that is supposed to be Blue, it was Ilford film should have stuck to Agfa perhaps.

Peter


My memory is probably faulty but I remember travelling on a light blue regal on Midland General’s E4 route and lighting in Crich village where I was to spend the weekend at the tramway museum.

I think that MG delighted us enthusiasts by the fact that it bucked corporate dictate from Tilling HQ by not having a Tilling red/green livery.

As I recall Midland General had a light blue livery.
It had two subsidiary companies Notts & Derby, including the trolley buses that came to Bradford, wore a dark blue livery whilst Mansfield and District wore non-Tilling green. In due course all three fleets assumed NBC leaf green.

Don’t be too worried about the colour on the image. It is still a wonderfully evocative image

Charles


I think this very dark blue was a latter-day variation. The original was not actually “light” blue, but a very nice, almost royal blue. I think it was actually the same for both MGO and NDT. Have a look here //www.busslides.co.uk/search_bus_pictures_east_midlands.php (and scroll down) for a few examples.

Stephen Ford


Memory plays tricks doesn’t it, had I already said that?, but wasn’t the blue featured on the dual purpose vehicles (in reverse livery) a darker shade than the blue used on the service buses?
Nice photo by the way, very handsome vehicle

Andrew


Andrew, yes it certainly was – in fact it was so dark as to be almost, or perhaps actually, black – but only in the later years. The classic (bus) livery was, to my mind, “real blue”. It was an honest to goodness full-bodied shade, and I judged all others (harshly!) by it, including the “washed out” blue that Cambus later used, and the ghastly fading “rail blue” that British Rail slopped all over everything in sight.

Stephen Ford


The blue used from pre war was Williamsons Azure Blue and Tilling cream. Earlier the vehicles carried a lighter blue relief. National bus days meant a change from the cream to white and more blue and so this looked a lot darker but all my investigation would suggest that this was indeed the same colour – it’s always a talking point at rallies between myself and other owners of ex MGO vehicles!
I have been involved with several preservation projects all being finished in this colour.
Hope this clears things up a bit.

Paul D Chambers


Used to use the old Notts & Derbys buses to Ilkeston and Cotmanhay 1969 & 70

Mickey Summers


02/05/12 – 17:19

I too can confirm that MGO and Notts & Derby Traction wore the same livery, at least post-war. I knew it was an Azure blue, was Williamsons Azure blue a reference to the one time general manager? Did he in fact choose the colours?
I have mixed feelings of Mount St bus station. The mix of MGO, NDT, Barton and Trent buses was exciting to me as a child, but I also suffered from travel sickness, so by the time we arrived there from Langley Mill I was feeling quite queasy.
Returning to the subject of the blue paint, I remember at one time my parents having a bathroom in MGO cream and a bedroom window in MGO blue. These things could happen when you lived near a bus depot.

Brian Yeomans


03/05/12 – 07:56

And when my mother and I moved from Surrey to Southsea, the house was almost battleship grey throughout, inside and out. It wasn’t long before a neighbour told us that the previous occupant worked in Portsmouth Dockyard and the guy was known in the street a Paintbrush Brill! When I got around to demolishing the ancient shed, it had been made from sailors’ packing cases, still bearing their names, ranks and numbers!

Chris Hebbron


03/05/12 – 09:02

I worked for the railway workshops in Derby, and certain senior managers were believed to have made a little freely with, shall we call them, “surplus materials” and “rail blue” colour schemes were not unknown. (Why anyone should have so little taste as to want their house painted that colour I do not know – now MGO blue, that’s a different matter!) Of one such manager I heard the comment that “It’s fortunate xxxx lives nowhere near the railway – If a train passed by and whistled the house would get up and follow it!”
As for Williamson, I seem to remember this was a fairly well-known industrial paint manufacturer.

Stephen Ford


03/05/12 – 14:09

I fear I may have mentioned this before but when we lived in Brislington, Bristol, our neighbour worked for Bristol Commercial Works and around 1957/8 brought home a “spare” 5 gallon drum of silver chassis paint which he then applied to the stonework of his house. It is still clearly visible to this day although I doubt the owners have quite worked out why their house has a fair amount of silvery flakes in the natural stone facings!

Richard Leaman


04/05/12 – 07:30

An NBC paint shop foreman once told me that all ‘leftovers’ of paint in tins used to be mixed together, this produced a sort of muddy plum colour which was used to paint under stairs, wheelarches, inside luggage boots etc. When the NBC issued it’s corporate identity diktat, it was ordered that a grey colour must be purchased and used for those areas (and indeed wheel centres) After that, all leftovers were thrown away. So much for the economies of a national organisation!

Chris Barker


04/05/12 – 14:41

No surprise there, Chris B!

Chris Hebbron


05/05/12 – 16:44

Williamsons are still in business from their Ripon Headquarters. They have supplied various colours of British Railways paint for projects underway at the Vintage Railway Carriages Trust Museum at Ingrow on the Worth Valley Railway. The quality of the paint is excellent – it is a pleasure to work with.

Ian Wild


05/05/12 – 16:46

You are right Stephen, T & R Williamson did, and still does, manufacture specialist paints and varnishes for the transport and industrial sectors. They are based up here in North Yorkshire, in the historic city of Ripon. Williamson’s were well known in the bus and railway world for their coach enamels and varnishes, which had a reputation for quality and durability. They have since kept pace with the modern demand for two-pack paint applications and the like, and the firm is well over two hundred years old. The original Williamson’s building greets visitors and travellers as they approach the city from the south on the A61.

Brendan Smith


08/02/13 – 06:15

Hi I remember this bus as I used to drive it from Riply to Nottingham Mount Street on routes b1 b2 c6 f1 f5 in fact it was a pain to drive very heavy steering but fond memory’s

Geoff Conway

United Automobile – Bristol Lodekka FS6B- 5108 HN – L108

United Automobile - Bristol Lodekka FS6B- 5108 HN - L108

United Automobile Services
1962
Bristol Lodekka FS6B
ECW H33/27R

This photo was taken in the middle of July 1966 and is the Scarborough North Bay “Corner Cafe” terminus of several routes. This photo apart from being a nearly decent shot of a “Short Lodekka” is a flash back to when an English seaside resort had every thing going for it, doesnâ’t it look busy. I do like the Ford Anglia on the roundabout.
In the mornings on the way to our chalet (No 99) I used to buy a pound of pea pods from the fruit and veg shop at the other side of the road from this bus stop and boy did they taste good, nice and sweet, and in the evening on the way back to the our B&B I would have a waffle with cream and raspberry jam from the waffle shop around the corner from this view, those were the days. (Sorry about the over long sentence but got carried away in nostalgia).

A full list including Bristol and United codes can be seen here.


The Bristol FS in the picture is one of a small batch of five delivered in February and March 1962 for use on Scarborough town services only. The FS was a very rare beast in United colours – there were only seven in the entire fleet of around 1,200 buses. The Scarborough vehicles were also unusual – in an age of power-operated jacknife doors and front entrances – in having open rear platforms. I believe an agreement with Scarborough Town Council ensured the buses never strayed from the resort right up until their withdrawal some 14 years later. I also believe the vehicles operated mainly in the summer season and were garaged for half the year, so they must have had fairly low mileages. For this reason, it’s a shame one never made it to preservation. I understand they all disappeared at the end of the 1976 summer season although one example may have stayed on as a driver-trainer until as late as 1978.

If anyone has any more information about these buses, or any more pictures, I would be very interested!!!

Dorsetcol


I remember the other two Bristol Lodekka FS6Bs L55/56 both these had rear doors from new I think, they operated out of Darlington on the Stockton 21 or Hartlepool 24 service. The Bishop Auckland route was the preserve of the first Bristol Lodekka LD6Bs L1-5. L56 went to West Yorkshire in exchange for a front entrance model which united was by then operating.

Paul Fraser


When West Yorkshire and United did their swap the ex United bus took the FSFs number in the West Yorkshire fleet DX82. I may be wrong but I think West Yorkshire were the only BTSC fleet to end up with a wholly rear entrance double deck fleet until the advent of the VR in 1969.

Chris Hough


From when I first glimpsed West Yorkshire’s FSF6B DX82 in Bingley as a child, it always remained one of my favourite buses in the fleet. I had never seen a front-entrance double-decker before, so this was something special. Imagine the dismay when WY exchanged it for an ‘ordinary’ FS6B in 1967! Interestingly, the FSF lost its ‘T’ style destination layout on transfer to United for one of their side by side destination/route number display. Unusually, the ex-United FS retained its full three-aperture display after overhaul by West Yorkshire, rather than being converted to ‘T’ type layout. In later years the FS had the intermediate part of its destination display overpainted red. Such a quick fix seemed very un-West Yorkshirelike at the time!
Apart from West Yorkshire, I seem to recall that Red & White was the only other BTC/THC company to operate solely rear-entrance Lodekkas. However, whereas West Yorkshire became so once their solitary FSF had been exchanged, Red & White had only rear entrance Lodekkas from the outset, including a batch of rare 30ft FL Lodekkas.

Brendan Smith


Brendan I remember while on holiday in Bournemouth in the 1960s being very impressed indeed by the small batch of Hants & Dorset 30 foot rear entrance Lodekkas. Just momentarily they at first looked odd but quickly the superb lines began to appeal greatly. If there was any criticism of the standard short Lodekka, and I struggle to think of any, it was they had a slight “chunky” appearance from the side.

Chris Youhill


11/02/11 – 06:54

I remember the Lodekkas in York as the main stay of the York West Yorkshire fleet when I was a kid in the 60s and early 70s.

Jim Plant


07/11/11 – 07:49

I lived on Bradford Road, Riddlesden, when DX82 arrived on the scene in 1960, based in Leeds and operating route 31 to Keighley. Sometimes when I took a trip to Bingley, I would wait for it, having seen it heading into Keighley 20 minutes earlier. I was not impressed with the design, since it provided no more seats than an LD or FS and had cramped accommodation for the conductor. Apparently, Company management thought the same.
I was delivering evening papers nearby in 1961 when DX82 was rammed from behind at the Airedale Heifer stop by DX67 on the X67 Bradford-Keighley Limited Stop express. Damage was quite extensive, and two passengers were trapped in the lower deck rear seats, which wouldn’t have happened on any other WY double-decker! I bicycled home to get my camera, but I have no idea what happened to the photo I took. The Company was fined for having defective brakes on DX67.

Martin S


18/12/12 – 07:58

Good website, filled me with nostalgia. Remember when I’d walk the dog in Hartlepool and down at the bus station/depot there was a big sign on the wall, United a National Bus Company. I’d get Explorer tickets, managed as far north as Berwick, south as Bridlington [although it was an East Yorkshire in one direction] and west as Carlisle on United [with the odd Northern thrown in on joint runs].

Kevan Hubbard


18/12/12 – 10:11

The ex United Lodekka 456 LHN, which as mentioned above became DX 82 when it arrived with West Yorkshire, it was for a while after October 1967 allocated to the Otley depot taken over from Samuel Ledgard. Just one of those fascinating coincidences but thereafter it could often be seen on service 34 Leeds – Otley – Ilkley, the frequent hunting ground previously of the “real” DX 82 before it moved North east.

Chris Youhill


22/12/14 – 09:31

Am I right in thinking, what I have read, that the Lodekkas West Yorkshire got were FS code, and West Yorkshire got them they coded them as DX.

Stephen


22/12/14 – 12:31

Stephen, West Yorkshire operated LD and FS-type Lodekkas. The letters were Bristol chassis designations denoting (LD) Lowheight Double-decker and (FS) Flat-floor Standard length chassis. The West Yorkshire code you refer to relates to the alpha-numeric fleetnumbering system used by WY between 1954 and 1971, which used classification letters followed by numbers. For example ‘DB’ indicated Double-deck, Bristol engine; ‘SGL’ Single-deck, Gardner engine, Long chassis; ‘CUG’ Coach, Underfloor Gardner engine etc. Where the ‘DX’ classification came in relates to West Yorkshire taking delivery of Bristol’s second Lodekka prototype in 1950, (chassis number LDX002) – Bristol Tramways & Carriage Co having taken the first one in 1949. West Yorkshire numbered its vehicle 822, but in the 1954 renumbering scheme it became DX1 (Double-deck eXperimental). The next Lodekka to arrive was a pre-production prototype and this became DX2. From then on ‘DX’ became the classification for all future WY Lodekkas. West Yorkshire operated 238 Lodekkas (or should that be 239 if you count the TWO DX82s?), all but three having Bristol engines. The trio that ‘broke ranks’ had Gardner engines, these being DX3/4 and 48. DX3/4 were delivered new in 1954 with 6LW units, whereas DX48 originally entered service in 1956 with a Bristol AVW engine, but was converted to Gardner 6LX power in 1958/59. Interestingly, in 1956 DX3 was fitted experimentally with a Shorrocks-supercharged Gardner 5LW engine, but was converted back to 6LW engine some six months later. Despite their Gardner engines, the trio were not classified as DXG as might have been expected, but remained inobtrusively as simply ‘DX’ bless ’em.

Brendan Smith

Mansfield District – Bristol Lodekka LD6G – RAL 974 – 500


Copyright Ian Wild

Mansfield District Traction Company Limited
1954
Bristol Lodekka LD6G
ECW H33/25R

I always liked the Bristol Lodekka with the original long grille-thought it gave the bus a more purposeful appearance. A chance visit to Mansfield in August 1968 found this example which appeared to be in excellent condition for its age.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild


29/06/11 – 13:03

In 1969 several of these early Mansfield Lodekkas moved north to West Riding to enable the ill fated Wulfrunians to be withdrawn They entered service in Mansfield green and were quickly joined by others from Midland General and Lincs. Later some twenty plus almost new FLFs came from Bristol to complete the exercise

Chris Hough


29/06/11 – 14:44

Ah! delight in Mansfield, one of my favourite places. Firstly I agree with Ian about the long grille Lodekka, I’ve always thought the same. Secondly, this is particularly interesting because it was Mansfield District’s first Lodekka, new in 1954, platform doors fitted in 1957. I’ve always tended to think of Mansfield District as a sort of Mansfield Corporation, with its history of tramway operation and lots of high frequency short distance services, a very good example of which was the 102 as shown. In 1964, the Saturday service was; first bus 4.40am then every 10mins until 9am then every 5mins until 6.20pm then every 10mins until 11pm (last) and this wasn’t the only service between Mansfield and Pleasley, a timetable wasn’t really necessary! I find it a little odd that this bus isn’t sporting a full blind display, Mansfield District, Midland General and Notts and Derby were normally very fastidious about such things and their inspectors would ‘have a word’ with the conductor if the blinds weren’t displayed perfectly! The correct display in the via box for the 102 would have been MANSFIELD CENTRE, CHESTERFIELD ROAD, PLEASLEY (some journeys carried on to New Houghton)
As Chris H rightly says, some of these vehicles were transferred to West Riding as Wulfrunian replacements and were apparently considered to be amongst the better ones so transferred, not surprising considering MDT/MGO’s excellent maintenance standards. Also unusual is that this vehicle carries no adverts of any sort and I think looks much better for it!

Chris Barker


30/06/11 – 05:29

I too much preferred the long radiator and the traditional Bristol shape of it to the later version, which always gave me the annoying impression of having been in a lower end collision and being amateurishly repaired by “chopping off the damaged bit and putting in a new straight lower shape.” I also have an aversion, on all buses, to front square number plates with two rows of three characters – the normal long number plate with all characters in one line looks far tidier at the front and, in many cases, even at the back also.

Chris Youhill


30/06/11 – 05:35

This vehicle’s sister, RAL 976, did some sightseeing work here in Halifax, Nova Scotia in the early seventies, alongside an ex London RT, and at the time made a fine sight in its green livery, I think it had been with West Riding before export to Canada. It moved on years ago, to destination unknown, and I suppose it presumably could still exist, but more than likely has succumbed to the scrapman’s hammer by now.

Dave Careless


30/06/11 – 16:07

I am not at all surprised to observe the superb condition which the Mansfield Lodekka demonstrates! Ignoring any design preferences of individual enthusiasts, I struggle to define any ECW bodied vehicle as being “worn”. Most would seem to be capable of completing a 40 year life cycle.
Undoubtedly the finest exponents of bus building which ever existed, the quality and innovation of which was, in my humble opinion, totally unmatched. It is to be greatly regretted that this wonderful company was allowed to disintegrate!
ECW bodies never failed to exude total quality, their obsolescence being defined simply in terms of “fashion”.
I have no “axe to grind”, and enjoy, as an enthusiast, other products than those from Lowestoft, but wonder if former professionals from within the industry are able to destroy this “illusion” of mine?

John Whitaker


01/07/11 – 05:19

Although I cannot fault the general impression of these vehicles, I was never that keen on the ‘hump’ below the driver’s cab, giving to me, at least, the impression that it had had a front-end shunt and was yet to be repaired!
AS Chris B says, the absence of adverts greatly enhances its looks. Were that they’d all been like this!

Chris Hebbron


25/07/11 – 21:01

The Photo of RAL 974 is not standing on the 102 Rank and as a driver for MDT I am suggesting that the vehicle will be driven round to Queen Street to duplicate the service 102 bus to Pleasley hence the via blind is left empty.

John Hellewell


I have put this comment on exact as I got it, I did not get the next to last word but had a good laugh when the penny dropped well done Mr A Non

15/08/11 – 13:01

old5oo thank you 44 sinse i drove her the fleet numbers500to 532 all back rsenders niceone

A Non


16/09/14 – 07:44

I used to be a driver for Mansfield District from 1968 and my father did fifty years for Mansfield it takes me back. I still am in the bus industry I’m a supervisor for West Coast Motors on the west coast of Scotland it was a good time at MDT. I was at Midland Travel as well.

Colin Steele


16/09/14 – 09:54

“ECW bodies never failed to exude total quality…”
Not quite, John. The B51 coach body was an absolute aesthetic and structural abomination, utilising large areas of unsupported glass fibre that simply collapsed in service. All the fittings were flimsy and the luggage boots leaked rainwater and road dirt. It was produced under the directives of the Stokes ‘led’ Leyland empire and so bad was it that it must have hastened the ultimate demise of ECW.

Roger Cox


16/09/14 – 12:08

Yes, but I think that it’s a given that any Stokes era history is a period not to savour and that John was thinking of “real” ECW in the same way that I differentiate between Leyland and British Leyland. You are absolutely right that the B51 was an abomination but its failings revolve around British Leyland trying to slap a body literally designed around a rear engined vehicle (the Bristol RELH) onto mid-engined designs without any thought to structural integrity. [Even the earlier, purer, versions on Leopards for SELNEC/GMT suffered similar problems but they were too embarrassed to mention it at the time.] Sadly, at the same time as the B51, Willowbrook offered its own abomination, the 003. Duple were not much better either and, as we all know, Plaxton eventually joined the slide into mediocrity or worse.

David Oldfield


17/09/14 – 07:13

I seem to recall that United took some Leopards with the plasticky B51 bodies for National Express work. The chassis did not have sufficient fixings to cater for the enormous boots required, worked themselves loose and at least one fell off, strewing luggage all over the motorway.

Chris Hebbron


19/09/14 – 07:03

None at all Chris. It was an unsupported boot. Originally the body was (semi) integral with the RE frame – and thus very rigid and strong. Here began its troubles.

David Oldfield


20/09/14 – 05:57

I wonder who dominated here, David O, engineers or accountants!

Chris Hebbron


20/09/14 – 09:27

No brainer Chris. Got to be accountants. Whenever there’s a choice between experts/professionals and accountants the outcome is chaos – just have a closer look at the accountants. You don’t have to look too far to see who is at fault.

David Oldfield


05/10/15 – 07:07

RAL 974

I’ve finally dug out my photo of RAL 974 taken in Newark in 1961, at which time it was wearing advertisements.

Roger Cox


06/10/15 – 07:11

Thanks Roger, for that wonderful photo, Mansfield District had several services between Mansfield and Newark but the principal ones were the 208/209 which combined to provide an hourly headway (even on Sundays) between the two towns by slightly different routes. On Saturdays the frequency was doubled up to half hourly for most of the day.
Although Newark had a bus station, for some reason all the MDT services at that time terminated at Northgate railway station which can be seen in the background. They did move into the bus station in later years.

Chris Barker


07/10/15 – 06:59

FRB 214H

Here is a slightly more modern Mansfield District vehicle – but still in the traditional livery – a Bristol VRT/ECW Series 1, seen in Newark Bus Station about to return to Nottingham via the 209 route in 1971.

John Stringer


07/10/15 – 15:52

Slip of the fingers there John? It says “Mansfield” on the blind! Nottingham was the 215. The fundamental difference between the 208 (via Blidworth, Southwell, Upton – as shown on the Lodekka) and the 209 was that the latter ran via Rolleston and Fiskerton between Newark and Southwell. I fancy it was meant to substitute for the train following closure of the Rolleston Junction – Southwell branch line.

Stephen Ford

Southern National – Bristol Lodekka – AUO 523B – 2053


Copyright Roger Cox

Southern National
1964
Bristol Lodekka FLF6B
ECW H38/32F

Stephen Ford asked, “Was Westward Ho! (Southern National) the only one that included an exclamation mark?”

I don’t know the answer to that, but here is a picture of a Bristol Lodekka displaying that very destination.

Westward Ho

The bus is an FLF6B with ECW H38/32F body delivered to Southern National as their number 2053 in December 1964. It is seen here in the summer of 1970 carrying the Western National identity following the NBC decision to phase out the Southern National company name.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

A full list of Bristol codes can be seen here.


11/12/11 – 11:14

Would a D registration make it 1966? … and when did the NBC come into being….?

Joe

Thanks for that Joe pressed the wrong key there I think


11/12/11 – 20:05

Joe, the National Bus Company was formed in November 1968, but did not actually come into being until 1st January 1969, when the assets of the state-owned Transport Holding Company (THC) were transferred to it. On 1st March 1968, the British Electric Traction (BET) group’s British bus subsidiaries became wholly owned by the THC, thus becoming fully state-controlled at this point. It’s interesting to note that the THC’s forerunner, the British Transport Commission (BTC) also took over the railway shareholdings of BET’s bus operating subsidiaries in 1948, following nationalisation of the railways. Although BET remained in overall control and in the private sector, some of the BET shares held later by the BTC/THC were quite large. For example it held 50% ordinary share capital in Midland Red, City of Oxford , East Midlands, Hebble, Western Welsh and Yorkshire Woollen District, and nearly as much in East Yorkshire, North Western and Yorkshire Traction. All fascinating stuff as to who owns what, and doubtless no less complex today!
Regarding the age of the FLF Joe, if it had been a ‘D-Reg’ model, it would most likely have had only one cream band to its livery, as ECW omitted the upper deck one from 1966. What a handsome beast it is though, and that Westward Ho! destination surely demands to be shouted out loud!

Brendan Smith


12/12/11 – 06:40

And for the first two or three years, it was, to a large extent, pretty much ‘business as usual’ but then the corporate image brigade were brought in and, well you know the rest! However, enough of that, this post reminds me of a journey I once made on a similar vehicle of my local operator Midland General, but with a Gardner engine. I was bound for Nottingham but the FLF failed at Kimberley (a VERY unusual occurrence for MGO!) Because the frequency was good at this point, we only had to wait five minutes or so for the next bus to come along which was another FLF but with a Bristol engine. I could recognise the sound but I knew nothing about the performance or merits of the different engines and I always remember how much faster the Bristol engined one was. A driver told me later that the Bristol was a faster revving engine and although I’d always been a Gardner fan, I had to concede that the Bristol was the livelier performer!

Chris Barker


12/12/11 – 06:41

Prior to the Lodekka/FLF era, the services in the North Devon area were operated by fairly elderly K’s. Many of these had one-piece blinds combining the three digit route number and the “via” display. Towards the end of their lives, the route numbers were changed from the 100 to the 300 series. Rather than buying new (non-standard) blinds, SN simply pasted a permanent 3 inside the glass where it would obscure the 1.

Stephen Ford


13/12/11 – 08:52

The resort of Westward Ho! was named after the book of the same name by Charles Kingsley who also wrote the Water Babies
The action of the book took place in the same area of Devon and a group of speculators decided to cash in on the name

Chris Hough


13/12/11 – 08:53

After having some of the clearest and most informative destination displays in the early 1950’s, the BTC/THC companies generally fell from grace in later years and the above photo is a good example. The taped over aperture with minute lettering for ‘Westward Ho!’ is typical of where things ended up. It made the destination very difficult to read at any distance. Crosville was particularly bad with not only a very small ‘slot’ for the destination but they used a very light font as well. The ‘T’ shaped format which some of the group companies used seemed to give a clearer display.

Philip Halstead


13/12/11 – 08:54

Many of us thought it a shame that the various BET and THC liveries vanished in the early seventies. As Chris says, it appeared to be ‘business as usual’ for a while – new owners of businesses generally seem to leave things outwardly unchanged for about two years, before making what is now termed ‘a bold statement’. Some of the simplified liveries and fleet names applied to NBC coaches in the formative years were quite attractive – those adopted by Northern, Ribble and Greenslades spring to mind. When I heard that West Yorkshire Road Car had placed an order for Plaxton-bodied Bristol RELH coaches in the early 1970’s, I visualised them arriving in rich cream, with a deep waistband of maroon and large fleet names a la Ribble. Alas, this was not to be. They were delivered in the new corporate all over white livery with large NATIONAL red and blue lettering, and a very discreet (i.e.: tiny) West Yorkshire fleet name over each front wheel arch. To many of us this signalled that the era of quality and refinement had been replaced by the age of circus wagon-style ‘impact’. Relating to the FLF photo, Western and Southern National lost more than most with the whitewashing of it’s fine Royal Blue fleet.

Brendan Smith


13/12/11 – 11:19

But it wasn’t just the liveries that were third class, it was the quality of the paint itself. The rich, shiny finish of Tilling Green or Red would have been far superior to NBC Leaf Green and Poppy Red (which rapidly faded). [Typed Poopy Red. I think that was a Freudian slip!] The less said about National White the better!!!

David Oldfield


13/12/11 – 12:54

One of the worst companies for poor blind information was Eastern Counties who often showed a route number and the word “Service” which did nothing to help the intending passenger Thec SBG companies were notorious for the extensive use of paper stickers a practice that still exists in the First Edinburgh fleet

Chris Hough


13/12/11 – 12:55

The green wasn’t too bad, but Poppy Red was a pathetic colour, even before it faded! Fortunately, in Gloucester, anyway, it only appeared on the few Cymru Genedlaethol/National Welsh buses from the Forest of Dean/Monmouthshire direction. And they couldn’t even get the Welsh right, either, since the above means National Wales! Being quirky, I quite liked having buses with Welsh on one side, but, my, it caused a stir among the local populace! Never, mind, the two colours didn’t last long and the ill-fated company not that much longer, into bankruptcy.

Chris Hebbron


17/12/11 – 07:41

I agree the NBC corporate colours were a terrible choice. The colours all looked ‘washed out’ and insipid when newly applied and none of them wore well, fading to a matt hue, particularly the poppy red. I thought the light grey wheels looked tacky and the grey/silver fleet numbers were virtually illegible.
The National white was passable on the modern coaches of the time such as the Plaxton Panorama or Duple Dominant but looked awful on the more shapely older designs. Not one of the best periods for the industry.

Philip Halstead


17/12/11 – 08:29

Thinking about those NBC colours, it is odd how such a dreadful set was chosen so was the choice down to one individual or group because I remember everybody hating them from the day they appeared? Surely the marketing men must have had some comments from the public which might have had some impact? Why did they stay in use so long?
Similarly, the current First Bus white, pink and purple is something that only looks passable on brand new vehicles but soon gets to look shabby and on the remaining old Dennis Darts, now rather battered and careworn, it looks dreadful.
Where and why have all of the interesting, vibrant and carefully chosen liveries gone…it cannot be cost just a lack of corporate interest or understanding that image is a very important part of building a successful Company.

Richard Leaman


17/12/11 – 16:24

Well I’ve heard it said that when you are a public company which is quoted on the London Stock Exchange, then the market expects a ‘corporate image’ to be applied, although the Go Ahead group seems to disprove this. Perhaps it’s simply a matter of cost reduction and expediency with good measures of misguidance and indifference also!
Regarding the NBC colours, I remember that when the first white coaches appeared, the ones which had glass panels at the rear incorporating the registration and fleet name had these altered to display N A T I O N A L in alternate red and blue letters. Apparently, this had to be quickly altered because it raised objections from the Police as only they are allowed to display illuminated blue signage on the rear of vehicles in darkness.

Chris Barker


17/12/11 – 16:25

When it was first set up, NBC tended to allow companies to follow their traditional paths. Then, in 1972, Freddie Wood was appointed Chairman, and from that point began the fixation with grandiose self importance as befitted “The Biggest Bus Company In The World”. Thereafter, uniformity, standardisation and direction from the centre became the established order. Not only did the liveries descend to a nadir of mediocrity, but the standard font adopted for the group was unparalleled in its clumsy ugliness.
Now, with the dominant groups of today, we are back to much the same thing, with over tight constraints on budgets (particularly in the matter of maintenance) and minimal delegation of initiative to the local management. And as for some of the liveries……….

Roger Cox


18/12/11 – 07:59

…..and it’s all the swooping lines up, down and across the bodywork which look so out of place on what is essentially an oblong box with straight lines. Full marks to those few independents who have liveries which, although of varied hue, still have the dignity of style of the above vehicle and eschew purples and pinks!

Chris Hebbron


19/12/11 – 06:15

…..Epsom Coaches, the other Richmond, the Delaine – to name but three.

David Oldfield


27/01/12 – 06:25

I wholehearted agree with the adverse comments regarding the NBC liveries which replaced so many attractive colour schemes developed over many years which were instantly recognised by passengers and enthusiasts alike, it seemed to me to be corporate vandalism. I once asked a junior NBC manager why they chose to paint the coaches white he replied that it was a colour no one else was using at the time, when I asked had it not occurred to anyone that there was a good reason for that, maybe it was because other people realised that it showed dirt very badly and faded to a dull grey all to quickly, to which I didn’t get a proper answer.

Diesel Dave


25/02/12 – 07:18

Enjoying the various posts on the subject of NBC liveries. Perhaps the most ignominious change was in the North East, where the glorious rich ruby red of Northern General was repainted in awful pale, fading poppy pink! What was the name of the NGT red paint, anyone able to tell me? It really seemed redder to me when I was a kid!
Even worse, now – I’m surrounded by FirstBarbie!

Pwhisto


25/03/12 – 09:03

I heartily agree with the adverse comments about the poppy red and the peculiar green colour but my understanding is that they were a response to a Ministry circular of 10/71 which basically said that there were too many accidents at night caused by people running into buses painted in dark colours so buses should be painted in lighter colours. I recall that this was based on research in Scandinavia which showed that lighter coloured vehicles had less accidents and the Ministry also encouraged UK car owners to buy lighter coloured vehicles at much the same time.

Peter Cook


23/02/13 – 13:30

Whilst I agree with the posts that the NBC corporate colours could have been better it is noticeable that at bus rallies there is a growing number of vehicles appearing in NBC livery – including some that pre-date the formation of the NBC and could carry earlier company liveries. I cant help thinking that this shows that NBC corporate livery is actually liked by many – it was certainly better by far than the disgusting liveries of some of todays group, particularly First and Stagecoach. In answer to the writer who asked about the old Northern colour – this was officially know as BET Dark Red and was one of several colours specified by the BET Group for use within the BET companies – although of course many BET group companies used their own livery that did not incorporate a group standard colour. BET Dark Red was common to Northern General, East Midland, South Wales, City of Oxford and several smaller companies. It should be noted that although being a standard colour within BET the shade did vary slightly between companies due to different paint manufacturers.
In the early 1970’s I was involved in collecting many samples from all around the country and its very interesting to see just what a colour looked like even where a supposed ‘standard’ existed – I have in my possession several different shades of Tilling Green for example.
For a real mystery how about the so called ‘Ribble Red’ used for a few months by the new Alder Valley company prior to NBC Poppy Red – the colour is NOTHING like true Ribble Motor Services red !!. I’ve recently resprayed an EFE Bristol FLF in this colour which was matched from the original sample in my possession – it does look good.

DorsetBus


23/02/13 – 18:04

Can we see a photo of it, then, please, Dorsetbus?

Chris Hebbron


26/02/13 – 12:32

I wonder if the preservation of buses in non-authentic NBC liveries indicates the age of the preservationists concerned? I suspect that nostalgia grips us all in connection with a particular period of our lives. For me, the bus scene was from about age 3 (1952) to 15 (1964) and from there on it was downhill all the way! (Now I am a grumpy old man who can remember how much better it was then). But in 40-50 years those who are now in the 3-15 age range may well remember purple and pink Barbie Lockheads, or blue red and orange Souter Stagecoaches [or even, perish the thought, washed-out green and white Arriva Departures] with an equally warm and wistful glow.

Stephen Ford


26/02/13 – 13:32

Just as an aside to the colour scheme debate, does anyone agree that the Stagecoach hybrid double decker green scheme is probably the strongest and most appealing of the corporate identities around at the moment?

Phil Blinkhorn


26/02/13 – 13:33

As a grumpy old man born in 1952, I agree with you Stephen. My golden age is 1947 (Regent III/PD2) to 1969 (end of RegentV/PD3/FLF). There have been bright spots (both Leyland – the AN68 version of the Atlantean and the Olympian are worthy classics) in later times, but not many. As a coach man, the heavy Reliances, REs and later Leopards, as well as modern Tigers as well. The old liveries were aesthetically far better than modern and I prefer original to later. Even Sheffield had two alternative liveries and the Roes moved from to another with repaints under different General Managers. Authentic liveries to the vehicle are therefore correct – if not acceptable. [I think RTs and RMs in National Leaf Green are HORRIBLE!

David Oldfield


26/02/13 – 15:27

I know that there are still many on this forum who buy into the bad press of Stagecoach – most of which was press fabrication or exaggeration. [If you don’t believe me, consult OFFICIAL history, and I don’t mean just Stagecoach archives.] Their new corporate livery is fairly restrained but things like Gold and the “Green” liveries are lessons in restraint. Mind you, I think I would still put Go-Ahead ahead!

David Oldfield


26/02/13 – 17:25

I want to respond to two points in this thread. Firstly not everyone born in 1952 is grumpy, I’m actually quite nice [at times]. Secondly choice and memories of colour depends where you grew up. In Taunton it was green WN/SN buses and green/two tone greens of various WR diesel hydraulic locomotives plus green DMUs and a reminder “to eat your greens” which ultimately leads to that famous bus photographer’s quote – the other side is always greener.

Ken Jones


27/02/13 – 05:48

Well Ken. Somebody has to be nice, so it might as well be you. Congratulations. You have the job!

David Oldfield


27/02/13 – 05:49

Colour Schemes, Stephen: the other day I saw an Arriva repaint in cream, with the dark blue skirt but a turquoise (instead of cream) curl behind the door. Are we returning to normality?

Joe


04/04/13 – 06:19

Thank you to the person who asked about seeing a picture of my respray in Alder Valley Dark Red on an EFE FLF. Yes I’ll be only too happy to put a picture up once its finished – I’m now also doing a Bristol RE in the same livery having got the required info together so I’ll add a photo of this as well. Please give me a while though as I’m re-organising my workshop and with two upcoming model railway shows to attend with my layouts it may be later in the summer before I can finish the buses. Then its on to several other repaints such as a City of Gloucester (blue) VRT / Leyland National and RE in NBC style and then the first of the next steps – scratch built West Riding Guy Wulfrunians – more on that project later if anyone is interested.

DorsetBus


Vehicle reminder shot for this posting


17/07/13 – 07:09

Just picked up on this thread with regards to NBC livery. When I first took an interest in buses in the 70s our school buses were Cumberland FLFs which were gradually being turned out in poppy red. At the time they seemed fresh and modern and the old livery seemed dark and past its sell by date. Not sure I would still agree though! Towards the end of the decade I went on a tour of the Leyland National factory. Apart from a pair of buses for McGill at Barrhead it seemed to be a sea of poppy red and leaf green. However, the shades of these so-called standard colours varied significantly from operator to operator. When I asked about this I was advised that each operator specified a different mix. The other NBC shade that I was very familiar with at that time was the yellow used by Northern on vehicles in the Tyne and Wear area. This was a shade of cadmium yellow as used by TWPTE (the British Standard was called Goldcup) and it worked much better than poppy red in an urban environment. What I don’t understand is why EFE keep churning out models in this livery but of a shade that is considerably paler and therefore very insipid. It is too light to even be excused as colour scaling!

Mike Morton


17/07/13 – 09:09

In response to Phil Blinkhorn’s ‘aside’ on this subject I agree the Stagecoach hybrid green livery is by far the best I have seen on a double decker for many years and is closely matched by the current Newport Buses livery on their single deck Scanias now operating the Park and Ride service in Cardiff (no doubt much to the ire of that City’s transport dept).
As a further aside, even the temptation of free Wi-Fi on Stagecoach hybrid operated route 50 in Manchester wasn’t sufficient to prevent me from route testing the new Metroline trams from East Didsbury to the Media City.

Orla Nutting


18/07/13 – 07:26

By coincidence, for the first time in around 10 years i was in the Newport and Cardiff areas 3 weeks ago and totally agree with Orla’s comments.

Phil Blinkhorn

Hants & Dorset – Bristol Lodekka – GRU 978D – 1547


Copyright Pete Davies

Hants & Dorset Motor Services 
1966
Bristol Lodekka FLF6B
ECW H38/32F

In case readers were thinking the bulk of my photographs are of operators in the Midlands and North of England, here is something to balance matters. GRU978D was a Bristol FLF6B in the Hants & Dorset fleet. She is seen on the sunny morning of 29 May 1970, and is at Hamble Square, ready to return to Woolston on the 81.
I believe she went to the USA when withdrawn.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

A full list of Bristol codes can be seen here.


14/08/12 – 06:51

As a young enthusiast on the south coast, Hants and Dorset was my nearest Tilling operator, often seen at Fareham, and Southampton. In those days, I sometimes felt that Tilling companies (BTC, then THC) were all “much the same”. That was before the impact of NBC – then we really knew what “all the same” meant! Here in the south, I reflect that it was possible to distinguish between the green Tilling companies (Hants and Dorset, Southern/Western National, Bristol Omnibus) or red ones (Wilts and Dorset, Thames Valley) by little idiosyncrasies as fleet number application (plates or transfers), the obvious registration letters used, and even destination indicator styles. Although the screen layout was an evolving national policy, somehow the style of the text differed between these operators – or was it just my imagination!? Several of these fleets also contained a number of vehicles unique to themselves. At Hants and Dorset, there were all-Leyland PD2s (highbridge), some NCME-bodied Regents (diverted from Western SMT), and H&D’s own open-top rebuilds with full-fronts. I think these bodies started on some pre-war Bristol Ks, and were transferred successively over a few years to some war-time Ks, and finally to some post-war Ks. These bodies, I believe, were rebuilt by H&D’s works from the original Brush bodies supplied pre-war (as ordinary half-cab double-deckers). So the FLF in the picture would have been “standard viewing” at the time, but brings great pleasure now. Incidentally, the name Hants and Dorset has disappeared, but the company became owned by Wilts and Dorset after privatisation (a reversal of the NBC era, when H&D controlled W&D!). But under modern W&D control, the H&D subsidiary is now called “Damory Coaches”. While in Weymouth last week, I photographed two Olympians – but they weren’t sailing – just waiting near the King’s Statue on the seafront for their return journey on their Olympic charter. Much too modern for this site, but they did look proud in the sunshine.

Michael Hampton


14/08/12 – 11:37

Have no history whatsoever with Hants & Dorset, but always preferred the Bristol engine. H & D had some of the rare (late) Leyland engined FLFs. I only learned recently that this option was put on the list after the Bristol engine was removed from it.
Looking at this picture though, it shows the perfect proportions of the FLF body. Balance and symmetry are always the basis of a good design.

David Oldfield


14/08/12 – 11:39

Rob Sly has an excellent website listing preserved Bristol Lodekka buses, VR, LH and RE. This bus did go to USA and was red in 2011 which is the last update – full details at //bcv.robsly.com/

Ken Jones


15/08/12 – 07:55

As far as I’m aware, one of the main reasons Northern bought Routemasters was United’s introduction of this type of Loddeka onto the routes they operated jointly. Northerns RD Park Royal PD2’s were getting a bit long in the tooth, and although the PDR1 Atlantean had been in service with Northern for a couple of years it was decided to go for the Routemaster instead. Being a BET company, Northern never had any of these, but that all changed with the formation of NBC, when for reasons best known to the powers that be, long established fleets were shuffled around like decks of cards. I cant remember the exact number, but at Percy Main we had some Daimler Fleetlines transferred to United in exchange for Loddeka’s, but they only stayed a matter of a few weeks and were replaced by the AEC Renowns that came from East Yorkshire, the Bristol’s going on to other depots. I remember one or two drivers being caught out by the gearbox, where it wasn’t possible to go into neutral from fifth without going through forth. Digressing back to fleet reshuffles, some depots got buses from as far afield East Kent and Maidstone and District, make sense of that if you can.

Ronnie Hoye


15/08/12 – 07:56

On the fringes (in two respects) to what Michael H said about name changes, I notice that neighbour Wilts & Dorset are re-naming their Bournemouth and Poole operation ‘MORE’! Bizarre!

Chris Hebbron


15/08/12 – 07:57

Can’t help but agree with you David, on the ‘just right’ proportions of the FLF. Handsome machines from any angle. Hants & Dorset did indeed have some FLFs with Leyland (0.600) engines, as did Wilts & Dorset. Interestingly, both fleets also specified semi-auto gearboxes to mate up with them. I could never understand however, why H&D had to change it’s livery from green to red under NBC ownership. Surely it can’t have been to differentiate between the H&D and Provincial (green) fleets. A similar fate befell West Riding Auto up here in the ‘Olympic Medal County’ of Yorkshire, where WR’s green fleet went red under NBC. Strangely, this meant that its fleet livery was then the same as associate company Yorkshire Woollen District, which retained its red. Maybe someone could explain?!

Brendan Smith


15/08/12 – 11:30

Chris H, there are rumblings that the name SALISBURY REDS is being extended from just the company’s activities in that City to Romsey and other routes as well, while MORE is being extended from Bournemouth and Poole to include Lymington. It’s being said that the W&D name will vanish (again) from bus sides, though I understand that it will remain as the legal lettering.

Brendan, going on from that, the history of Wilts & Dorset to 1972 includes a reference to the green to red transition of Hants & Dorset. It has nothing to do with trying to distinguish from Provincial. When the joint management of H&D/W&D were told that the W&D name was to be dropped, they were so disgusted by the dropping of such a highly respected name they decided “We’re going red”.

Pete Davies


15/08/12 – 11:31

No logic in the halls of NBC Brendan. Maroon East Midland became leaf green.

David Oldfield


15/08/12 – 14:55

Wasn’t NBC policy a poor attempt at LT/Greenline… Country services to be green, urban services red? If I recall, a lot of the “used” Wulfrunian replacements at WR had arrived in green… and I think stayed that way…?? Anyway, privatised WR went back to green, if not the same one…. Of course, WR had once been part red anyway!

Joe


19/08/12 – 07:52

This must be the smartest design of all ECW double decker Bristols

Jim Hepburn


19/08/12 – 07:54

David, I seem to remember that East Midland (maroon) absorbed Mansfield District (green), is that when East Midland went green?

Vernon Ford


19/08/12 – 08:30

That’s very true, Vernon – but it’s no excuse! [I read recently a theory that NBC went green for rural and red for urban – but that doesn’t explain Hants & Dorset going from green to red!] …..and of course the blues (East Yorkshire and Midland General) had to go red.
None of this would have been half so bad if Tilling Red, Green and Cream had been retained. Visually – and on quality – they were better than Leaf Green and Poppy Red which faded within the year.

David Oldfield


19/08/12 – 12:00

I seem to recall reading somewhere that certain bus companies which had their origins in tramways, and which had not set up a separate company later to operate buses, were therefore statutory companies (i.e. set up by Acts of Parliament). The Acts specified in very minute detail the activities of the operator and in some cases this could even specify the livery that would be used (though obviously not in the majority of cases as many tramway operators changed their liveries). I believe Mansfield District was such a case, and the green livery on the bus fleet could only be changed by another Act of Parliament, which would have been too much hassle, so when East Midland took them over it was easier to adopt a green livery for the entire fleet. Has anyone else heard of this?

John Stringer


19/08/12 – 15:05

This may be right- I think, John S, that tramways regulations were why West Riding ran a red fleet on the old tram routes, and there might be some obscure connection with the centre entrances?

Joe


20/08/12 – 07:59

John, regarding your comments on statutory companies and Acts Of Parliament, I seem to recall reading something similar about Provincial surviving as a fleet in its own right for a similar reason, after acquisition by NBC. Even though Provincial came under Hants & Dorset administrative control, the fleetname and green livery were retained, whereas Wilts & Dorset, a larger NBC subsidiary, was swept away altogether under NBC ‘rationalisation’. If the above is correct, was another Act of Parliament actually passed when NBC was privatised? If it wasn’t, on a mischievous note, wouldn’t it be nice to inform First Group that Provincial’s fleetname and livery must be reinstated….?

Brendan Smith


20/08/12 – 08:00

Joe, am I right in thinking that West Riding trams were red and buses green? (why the difference? – a subsidiary company operated the buses to start with?? [time to consult bookshelf!]) and this difference perpetuated on the Wakefield-Leeds tram-replacement buses because those services operated “jointly” with the Rothwell-Leeds services of LCT. Red WR buses could carry local passengers, green buses could not. I think the distinction was ended after LCT bought out Wallace Arnold’s Kippax & District (also Farsley Omnibus Co) operations: a coordination agreement (see V4 of John Soper’s/LTHS’s excellent history of LCT et al) was subsequently entered into in respect of the Leeds-Garforth corridor, which allowed (green) WR buses to carry local passengers – so the retention of red buses on the “track” was pointless, although as there were still WR services that couldn’t pick up in Leeds I suppose WR could have painted Leeds-Garforth buses in red as well. Whatever, with all these (in many cases poorly advertised) restricted carrying arrangements – which varied from town to town – in force is it any wonder that passengers deserted the bus?


I’m going to stick my neck out here and say that this red “urban”/green “rural” NBC livery theory is a load of tosh – Alder Valley (a new company) went red – and it’s territory can hardly be described as urban – as did East Yorkshire (ditto, country-wise) when it changed colour. Cumberland, Ribble, West Yorkshire, Eastern Counties, East Kent (and the previously-mentioned Hants & Dorset) – all with large rural areas stayed/went red. I remember reading, many years ago when the privatisation BA livery was introduced, that even office furniture down to desk tidies was changed: the logic being that corporate means the same throughout, down to the last item. I’ve read that NBC (and their design consultants!) wanted to go “poppy red all over” but that that the managers of green fleets put forward a strong-enough case for that colour to be retained. The blue fleets weren’t so lucky, in the long run: no standard blue was decided on and the choice of colour was left down to the Regional Chairman: Stratford Blue had gone by this time; Midland General was told to go red, after a period in which it painted it’s buses in NBC-style “Balfour Beatty” blue; EYMS and Sunderland District were allowed to stay (their own) blue by the Regional Chairman ([sic] I think, as NBC seemed to have a habit of changing Regional boundaries around this time), but Sunderland District was then absorbed by Northern – and that just left EYMS with a non-standard indigo livery, which then succumbed . . . except for plucky little Jones. Now I’ve heard that when the directors of Jones sold out to NBC they insisted that the the Jones identity AND blue be preserved for ten years – would that fit in with when the Jones identity disappeared under MAP? Wholly-urban Provincial and (OK, this is pushing it) Bristol Joint Services and “Bath Services” stayed green, and indeed, Cheltenham District went green. Red “urban”. green “rural”? – seems like a London-centric fixation.

Philip Rushworth


20/08/12 – 09:06

Nah, Philip. My body’s down south but my heart’s still in the north.

David Oldfield


20/08/12 – 11:40

Nay Philip, I haven’t a clue. West Riding buses were green except the red ones on the old tram routes- Leeds and, I think, Ossett. These had centre entrances and, I think, double staircases (like trams?!) An early example of route branding, but can anyone confirm the fundamental reason? Was it passenger co-ordination, or tramway legislation? After all, Yorks Woollen latterly ran into Leeds in red….
I still think that deep in the NBC head office was the belief that buses were born either green or red, and green ones ran in leafy suburbs. The fact that this didn’t work across the country was only realised later….

Joe


20/08/12 – 13:56

Just a small point arising from Philip Rushworth’s comment on Alder Valley. When Aldershot and District was, in effect, taken over by Thames Valley – one of the best BET companies being swallowed up by one of the worst BTC ones – to form Alder Valley in January 1972, the livery initially adopted was maroon, on the rather tenuous pretext that this was the colour formed by mixing TV red and A&D green. London Country Bus Services next door already used a green livery, so that, when the dead hand of Freddy Wood’s standardisation came to be applied, the maroon became red.

Roger Cox


20/08/12 – 13:58

Brendan, When the Barbie livery was introduced, along with the dropping of the local fleetnames, I wrote to the local branch of First to suggest the very same thing in respect of Provincial. The then MD wrote back to say they had considered this, but weren’t worried. From that, I guess the disposal of certain fleetnames may have been written into the 1985 Act, but I must admit I’ve never read it.

Pete Davies


21/08/12 – 07:34

As well as Bristol staying green so did Crosville who were a very urban operator in the north of their territory.

Chris Hough


21/08/12 – 08:32

Yes Chris, but outside Bristol and Liverpool/Wirral they were both very rural.

David Oldfield


21/08/12 – 20:29

We can surely add Eastern National and United Counties to the list of the NBC “Greens” with much urban mileage.

Roger Cox


24/08/12 – 08:26

Joe
The fundamental reason, was I think, that red buses on “the track” (Leeds-Wakefield) were joint/coordinated with LCT buses on Leeds-Rothwell (both having been jointly-worked/coordinated tram services) and could pick-up within the LCT area. The significance of this distinction ended when green WR buses on the Leeds-Garforth corridor were also allowed to pick-up within the LCT boundary following a co-ordination agreement with LCT on that corridor.

Philip Rushworth


04/02/13 – 06:59

Further to the query regarding the survival of Gosport & Fareham under NBC, I well remember Peter Hunt, then General Manager at H&D/G&F telling me that, as G&F was a Statutory Company, an Act of Parliament would be necessary to extinguish it. At that time (around 1977) the estimated legal costs of such an Act was £30,000, which was not considered justified. In any case, Peter Hunt said in a public meeting at which I was present “I think small is beautiful” he thought the efficiency benefits of small-unit cohesion far outweighed any possible advantage from scrapping it. Would that the current crop of industry managers had his wisdom!

David Jones


04/02/13 – 09:58

It’s statutory status probably stemmed from its creation as a tram company. I would have thought, though, that the name could merely have been discontinued and/or the company made moribund. It looks as if the small is beautiful, and a certain affection for this quirky organisation by Peter Hunt and well-loved by locals and enthusiasts alike, won the day! And hooray for that! Shame it never happened to equally loved and respected Samuel Ledgard.

Chris Hebbron


25/06/13 – 07:40

Here’s one for Lodekka enthusiasts… I once boarded a Hants & Dorset FS which featured something I’ve never ever seen on any other Lodekka – it had an opening top vent in the nearside rear lower bulkhead window. I know this to be true, but can anyone shed any light on this particular vehicle?

Colin Plucknett


25/06/13 – 11:45

Coincidence can be a funny thing. I’m travelling at present but have a number of models with me to show to/sell to a friend. One is a Corgi Lodekka FS being Hants and Dorset 1512, CEL 860C. This is modelled with a top opening light in the nearside front bulkhead window so I presume that all that batch, at least, had them.

Phil Blinkhorn


25/06/13 – 11:47

Colin both West Yorkshire and Crosville also had an opening window on the front lowerdeck window on their FS Lodekkas.

Chris Hough


28/06/13 – 07:22

Thanks very much Phil and Chris for your interesting replies – however, the window I am thinking of is one of the pair in the rear downstairs. I have since turned up one half-shot from a book and you can just see what I mean. It really is a rare thing – and at least it proves I’m not going mad!!! Any further ideas chaps?

Colin Plucknett


13/12/13 – 16:55

In case anyone is curious, the last H&D FLF 1577, LLJ  443F, is preserved and appears annually at the King Alfred Running day in Winchester, on 1st January. Free rides all day on part of the 47 road, all welcome.

Alex Geisler


Vehicle reminder shot for this posting


13/02/14 – 17:01

When Hants and Dorset was split up into smaller units Wilts and Dorset was one of the resulting companies.
To rename buses from Hants and Dorset to Wilts and Dorset the simple expedient of printing some stickers that read “WIL” and placing them over the “HAN” of Hants and Dorset was used.

David R

Southern Vectis – Bristol Lodekka – KDL 414 – 518


Copyright Pete Davies

Southern Vectis Omnibus Company
1954
Bristol Lodekka LD6G
ECW LD57R

KDL 414 is a Bristol LD6G with the usual ECW H60R body, still in Tilling green, but with NBC fleetname and the white stripe. She was one of ten which were borrowed at the time, and has gained a Hants & Dorset fleet number (3493) instead of her “real” one. She is in the yard of Southampton depot on a dull lunchtime in March 1974.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

A full list of Bristol codes can be seen here.


16/10/12 – 16:57

A lovely photo of an icon in design which does speak well for the quality of the Bristol and ECW product at 20 years of age. Just a little puzzled at the seating capacity which was normally 58 seats in this first tranche of 1954 Lodekkas. The 1955 build saw seating increase to 60 seats but some operators still preferred 58 seats.

Richard Fieldhouse

Info from 1963 OBF 3 South Central

Peter


16/10/12 – 16:57

One of the early LDs with long radiator grille, as used up to 1955. The red bus behind has the same type of grille. However, it was not unknown for the long and short grilles to be exchanged during overhaul.

Geoff Kerr


16/10/12 – 17:30

KDL 401_lr

Here is another shot of one of these Southern Vectis early LD6G Lodekkas. KDL 401, SV fleet no.505, delivered in March 1954, is shown at St. Boniface Down on 28 August 1967. According to Bus Lists on the Web, this bus and its fellow no.518 above originally had ECW bodywork with a capacity of H33/21R. It is possible that this was increased later, as others within the same batch had H33/25R seating accommodation.

Roger Cox


17/10/12 – 08:46

I very much preferred the original long radiator grilles, as shown on the SV buses, to the later shorter ones which, in my opinion, ruined the look of the vehicles.
The reason for the 58 seat capacity is interesting. It arose because the inward facing seats were for two people instead of the normal three – due to the enormous intrusive differential housings, these being to go along with the original intention to have twin propshafts and diff’s to achieve the low height with the “highbridge” upper saloon. The first thirteen production models which West Yorkshire had (DX3-13) suffered from this lower saloon gangway handicap even though the transmission had already been revised to one propshaft and differential.

Chris Youhill


17/10/12 – 08:46

Nice to see a long grille version of the Lodekka, (always the DX in my mind) – relatively rare. ECW were really consistent in producing restrained and well-balanced designs. In view of Phil Blinkhorn’s contribution to the Ugly Bus Page and the majority response to the recent Queen Mary posting, however, perhaps it’s fortunate that they never produced a full-fronted version of the Lodekka!

Roy Burke


17/10/12 – 08:47

The seating arrangement when these 10 were with Hants & Dorset is noted in the PSVC listing (PK782) as H33/27R. I submitted this for consideration after reading the recent comments about a West Yorkshire MW regarding vehicles with the traditional livery but carrying NBC ’embellishments’.

Pete Davies


07/11/12 – 15:27

The early batches of SVOC Lodekkas were fitted with luggage racks in place of the longitudinal seats on one or both sides at the rear of the saloon, giving a total capacity of 54, 56 or 57 seats. The racks were installed for railway replacement purposes as the Island’s rail network was being run down. They were subsequently removed as more holiday makers came by car, seating capacity reverting to 60. Long radiators and split rear window – the real classic every time!

Trevor

Southern Vectis – Bristol Lodekka – MDL 951 – 541 / OT1

Copyright Pete Davies

Southern Vectis Omnibus Company
1956
Bristol Lodekka LD6G
ECW O60R

Here is a view of MDL 951. She was new to Southern Vectis in 1956 with an ECW H33/24R body, but, in this view, she has been converted to O60R format. She’s in the “dual purpose” version of NBC livery as OT1. We see her at Yarmouth, on a sunny evening in June 1974. The blind has just been changed for another trip and the driver walks round to check it. She isn’t mentioned in the 2012 PSVC listing, but her sister 954 is.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies


12/04/13 – 12:21

I have a video on Youtube taken in 1998 showing a Southern Vectis open top Lodekka in action (10.56) near to Alum Bay (Isle of Wight Memories 1998). I cannot read the registration number because at that time I was using old fashioned analogue technology but this particular bus is painted cream all over. Also on the same video is some footage of the island’s narrow gauge steam railway.

John Barringer


13/04/13 – 12:37

John,
Thanks for your comment. I’ve now had a chance to look at your video. The Lodekka in question certainly looks to be one of this batch, but which one is anyone’s guess. The Isle of Wight Steam Railway, by the way, is normal standard gauge, not narrow. The stock just looks smaller than normal.

Pete Davies


14/04/13 – 18:20

This brings back memories of my visits ‘over the water’ to the IoW from Pompey. The Yarmouth-Alum Bay run was/is impressive. Sadly, I can’t recall what open-toppers I rode on now.
I notice that the driver appears to be wearing cycle-clips; not an unusual habit among older drivers at the time.

Chris Hebbron

Crosville – Bristol Lodekka – 4227 FM – DFG 157

Crosville - Bristol Lodekka - 4227 FM - DFG157

Crosville Motor Services
1964
Bristol Lodekka FS6G
ECW H33/27RD

Here is a Bristol Lodekka FS6G with rear entrance ECW body and dates from 1964. Crosville bought both long and short F series Lodekkas. DFG157 is one of the short ones. It was withdrawn by Crosville in 1977 and is now preserved
Photographed 8/5/2011 whilst in service at The Wedgwood Potteries rally “Take me home country roads.”

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ken Jones


21/05/13 – 15:47

I always thought the FS was a more subtle bus than the FLF with just the right amount of side profile curvature, I can never decide whether I prefer this destination indicator layout or the T type as used by West Yorkshire. The bus is a true post war classic especially when fitted with a Bristol engine, although others may differ.

Chris Hough


22/05/13 – 07:30

The Bristol BVW engine and the earlier AVW, like the Daimler CD6, were introduced in part to relax the constraints placed upon chassis production volumes by the limited supply of Gardner power plants. The AVW was a straightforward dry liner engine, and proved fairly trouble free, but the wet liner BVW, introduced in 1957, did give problems in service, and went through a series of modifications. In the 1970s, when the Stokes led Leyland empire dominated the industry, BVW production was halted and spares became very difficult to obtain. Several Tilling group companies re-engined some of their BVW powered Lodekkas with Gardner units in consequence.

Roger Cox


22/05/13 – 08:55

And it’s the “right” shade of green for a Bristol/ECW combination, not that dreadful NBC attempt . . .

Pete Davies


22/05/13 – 09:39

Roger, is of course, right in every respect. What he didn’t say was that there were continuing capacity problems at Gardner’s and British Leyland then offered the O.600 as an alternative to the withdrawn BVW option – which was taken up by Hants & Dorset and Wilts & Dorset.

David Oldfield


22/05/13 – 11:11

And once again Ken, a really superb photo of a preserved bus caught in a timeless landscape looking just as it would have in its heyday, rather than parked in a line up on some car park, all covered in rally stickers, and surrounded by stalls and people in high-vis. Keep up the good work !
I agree with you about the FS, it was a superbly proportioned design. Just ‘right’. Though the Gardner engined Lodekka almost by definition had to be the most reliable and efficient version, speaking purely from an enthusiast’s aesthetic point of view, they just had to have Bristol engines. Along with most AEC’s, the Bristol-engined Bristol was one of my favourite bus sounds ever.

John Stringer


22/05/13 – 17:51

You and me both, John – AEC & Bristol engines. But there were problems with wet-liners with both makes…..

David Oldfield


23/05/13 – 07:58

The whine of a Regent V box always made me think we`re going back to the days of the TD1 !

Jim Hepburn


23/05/13 – 07:58

Ken, thank you for posting a photograph that is beyond superb. This photograph manages to capture the very essence of Crosville, a Bristol Lodekka and a rural scene. I could look at this photograph for hours and never get tired.

Kevin Hey


23/05/13 – 07:59

May I suggest that the date was Sunday the 18th rather than the 8th? I was at the Rally and travelled on this Lodekka. It brought back fond memories of my daily travels from Gresford to grammar school in Wrexham on umpteen Crosville Ks and Lodekkas on the D1 service heading ultimately for Llangollen.
When I filmed the bus at the Rally mid-afternoon, it was displaying ‘Private’ and ‘D45’. Presumably, the destination had been changed to avoid misleading any intending passengers, though an ex-Devon General Atlantean proudly displayed ‘Dawlish’ all day.

AG 6470

This was the first time I’d attended the Potteries Rally and was amazed to see the line-up of elderly vehicles put on show by the Emerton Brothers as ‘Bounty Country Buses’. Seeing a Dennis Ace and two Crossley coaches, among other gems, was a truly heart-warming experience.

Berwyn Prys Jones


23/05/13 – 07:59

A lovely shot Ken, and good to see the bus in Tilling green as Pete says. Also good to see the Lodekka grille and surround as they should be, and not painted green as sadly Crosville appeared to do with so many of their Lodekkas on repaint. (Northern General treated their acquired examples similarly if memory serves correctly). Even if the buses were sprayed, rather than hand-painted, surely there was no excuse for such corner-cutting shodiness. Things didn’t improve with the advent of NBC’s corporate livery, as Crosville along with many other NBC subsidiaries, then painted the mudguards the same colour as the main bodywork as well. Some operators (West Yorkshire, Southern Vectis and Red & White spring to mind) at least attempted to keep some standards under NBC’s somewhat cheapened paint application, by retaining black mudguards front and rear. This did seem to lift the livery on half-cab vehicles, but sadly most NBC subsidiaries did not avail themselves of this.
While the BVW engine did have some problems with the wet liners, the bottom end was just about bomb-proof, and West Yorkshire’s examples achieved some amazing mileages between overhauls. Head gasket failures were not uncommon at one time, but much of the problem was felt to be due to the infamous CBC ‘heating’ system and its airlock-inducing pipework, rather than the engine itself. It is surely no coincidence that as WY steadily converted many of its later CBC Lodekka ‘steamers’ to conventional radiator and heater layout, the boiling and head gasket problems seemed to decrease.
As for Lodekka engine sounds – the induction roar of the AVW, the somewhat more powerful sound of the BVW, the ‘staccato’ bark of the 5-pot Gardner, the purposeful growl of the 6-cylinder Gardner (LW and LX) – I love ’em all!

Brendan Smith


23/05/13 – 10:12

…..but the music of the “pre-war” whine is part of the attraction of the Regent V. [Posted by a professional musician!]

David Oldfield


23/05/13 – 10:13

I’m glad this picture is generating such positive responses especially as I took it on the move from another vehicle. It’s very pleasing when someone says they could look at it all day. You start to see buildings etc you hadn’t previously noted.
I don’t generally argue about comments as I know next to nothing about buses. I have to confirm the date as 8th May though – it’s on the picture generated by the camera and I attach a calendar for May 2011.
I’ve now been to four of these Potteries Rallies and two at Hanley all organised by POPS. I’ve just donated all the pictures I’ve taken from all these events to their group

Ken Jones

The 8th of May 2011 was a Sunday the 18th was a Wednesday.


23/05/13 – 16:12

David O, I respect your professional musical knowledge, but with regard to the Regent V, I confess that I always felt cheated. My first experience of the type was with the Nottingham variety that appeared about 1956, and although the sound was quite nice, it always seemed to me a cheap and jazzed up imitation of the real pre- and post-war sliding mesh gearbox Regent sound. I am afraid that familiarity bred contempt for the homely soothing pre-selector Regent, that seemed almost universal in NCT at that time.

Stephen Ford


24/05/13 – 15:14

David, I must point out I had high regard for TD1s. Our local company at the time, Chieftain Buses of Hamilton had several second-hand examples in my schooldays.
One of them, which would have qualified for the Ugly Bus page, with a UF registration, so presumably came from Brighton, had the smoothest ride of any bus I have ever ridden on – including modern coaches.

Jim Hepburn


26/05/13 – 07:47

4227 FM_2

This year I had the opportunity to photograph the vehicle to the rear. It’s heading for the Potteries Rally and I took this shot from JFJ 873.

Ken Jones


27/05/13 – 06:55

On the subject of bus music, I am suffering from Regent V deficiency at the moment. I expect I’ve got a recording of one somewhere, but I don’t think my wife would have appreciated that with her lunch, so I had to make do with Sibelius 5 (the last movement has a certain similarity!).
I must confess, though, that I prefer the sound of a Gardner engine, and it is a source of frustration that, during the brief period when AEC offered them, there never were any D3RV6Gs to go with Glasgow’s D2RV6Gs and the D2RA6Gs at Rochdale and Aberdeen. Not only has this deprived me of what would have been an interesting array of sound effects, but it also deprived the world of a double decker with a Gardner engine and a synchromesh gearbox that worked properly – something which I would have thought highly desirable.

Peter Williamson


27/05/13 – 09:01

On the subject of musical parallels with the bus world, I suppose the nearest equivalent to a trolleybus would be John Cage’s ‘4 mins 33 secs’. I yearn for the day when Radio Three’s ‘Building a Library’ undertakes a comparative evaluation of this piece.

Roger Cox


28/05/13 – 07:38

I recall going to a concert in Bristol many years ago when this piece was played. It was a very ragged performance, I assume because the orchestra was under-rehearsed!

Chris Hebbron


28/05/13 – 11:01

You’ve just given me an idea, Roger. I will do an arrangement of the Cage for organ and include it in my next recital.
The music of the pre-selector is a distinctly different, and none the worse, experience from the syncro “whine” – both are equally valid. I would point out the gear-box rather than the engine is the most critical instrument (just as the building is rather the THE instrument in the Cage).
Ken. You’ve just proved how attractive the back end of a bus can be.

David Oldfield


28/05/13 – 17:00

That reminds me of a Sketch from the radio comedy programme “Take It From Here” many years ago about Cleopatra:-
….And truly men call her Desire.
Because she is so beautiful? No. from the back she looks like a street-car!

Jim Hepburn


04/06/13 – 06:57

A belated apology to Ken Jones! I was talking about the 2013 rally date rather than 2011 and should have read Ken’s text more carefully. The Lodekka attended both rallies.
The photo I sent in of the three buses owned by the Emerton Brothers was taken at this year’s rally.

Berwyn Prys Jones


05/07/13 – 06:07

For those of you who like timeless views of Crosville vehicles in preservtion may I suggest you pay my flickr pages a visit? You may have to soft-focus on a few modern vehicles and signs on some of them but there should be enough “uncontaminated” views there to make it worth your while.
Five photo excursions rounded up here:
LH visiting Wrexham-Ruthin-Denbigh-Llanrwst
www.flickr.com/photos/crisparmour/sets/1  
Busway RE revisits old haunts
www.flickr.com/photos/crisparmour/sets/2  
Dual door RE in Gwynedd
www.flickr.com/photos/crisparmour/sets/3  
D94 revisited with DP RE
www.flickr.com/photos/crisparmour/sets/4  
LH in Snowdonia
www.flickr.com/photos/crisparmour/sets/5

crisparmour


19/07/13 – 08:52

Growing up in 1960s Bournemouth the sight and sound of a Hants&Dorset Lodekka ascending Commercial Road has stayed with me over the years. The FS6G type (as pictured here) seemed a very business-like no-nonsense bus, perfect for the country roads which made up a lot of their routes. I did many trips to Fordingbridge on those as a passenger, and appreciated their rugged if somewhat spartan accommodation. Their appearance was perfectly balanced and probably the finest of all the Bristol buses IMHO.
In comparison, the local BCT buses seemed rather lady-like!

Grahame Arnold


Vehicle reminder shot for this posting


03/09/14 – 07:17

Seeing the photo of DFG 157 which was based at Wrexham brought back old memories of the 1960’s where I was employed as a driver. I remember taking her over on the D1 stand on her first day in service going to Llangollen then back through Wrexham bus station to Chester and return on the D1 route. What a difference to the DLG and DLB’s previously on the D1 service.
My favourite bus in the Wrexham depot was SLG 144. This single decker had fantastic pulling power and when I was on a route with hills and it was parked up at the bus station I used to ‘swop’ it over with the one I was due to take over. When the engine was ticking over it had a strong sounding diesel ‘knock’. I also remember I got the knack of going through the gear box from 2nd to 5th without the use of the clutch using the speedometer and engine revs. Great days and in the years I was at Wrexham I never had one mechanical breakdown. SLA 42 had the side taken out of her when I was at a bus stop on Derby road when a council snow plough slid down the hill and rolled the aluminium side of it like a tin opener. Myself and conductor picked it up and put it in the bus and took it with us on a colliery run! Some years later on a school run from Mild to Treuddyn via Cymau SLG 138 went on fire under the bonnet. I emptied the fire extinguisher into the engine bay through a large hole in the side about six inches diameter and it went out. The engine restarted and we carried on to Treuddyn. Running back light to Wrexham it went on fire again and luckily a service bus came along and we had his extinguisher to put it out. We later discovered some rags had been left in the engine bay and had fallen onto the exhaust manifold. Next day I had old SLG 138 again on Pentre/Moss/Tanyfron/Brymbo. Tough old buses Crosville had.

Brian Wright


03/09/14 – 18:00

Thx for re-living your experiences with us, Brian, a part of history always worth recording for others to enjoy. Snow plough, eh? Bet you never dreamt that that would happen to you!

Chris Hebbron