This vehicle was built for United Welsh in 1959 with ECW body, and it worked on routes in Gower. In 1969 when United Welsh merged with South Wales Transport it became 916, and in 1974 it was converted to a tree lopping vehicle. In 1991 it was acquired by the 447 Group and restored as an open topper, and registered as ACY 178A, then ACY 307A its original number having been transferred to a National Express coach. The registration number was later transferred back to this vehicle which was then bought by the SWT Group in 2010. It is seen at the Barry Island event in June 2013 although it was not in service.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ken Jones
15/07/13 – 14:44
In response to the subject of open toppers, here’s a very extreme one. Poor old once-proud Lodekka, subjected to such ignominy. I don’t know any history of this vehicle. Perhaps somebody can tell us more. I don’t know who took the photo either, it’s just a print that has been in my spares box for many years.
David Rhodes
16/07/13 – 08:01
An open-staircase, frilly-hatted Lodekka toastrack! Looks as though the platform’s been shortened by a foot or so, too. Must have knocked a few hundredweight off the UW. In a way I agree with David R that this LD has suffered ignominious treatment, but it’s all done with such style that I can forgive them!
Ian Thompson
17/07/13 – 07:13
You get the impression that the toastrack is about to set out on a Kenyan safari. All very Colonial-looking!
Central SMT 1966 Bristol Lodekka FLF6G ECW H44/32F
This photo taken in Glasgow in the late sixties is not very good quality but the subject is quite unusual inasmuch as it was one of a batch of forty bought by Central SMT built to a length of 31ft 6in with a seating capacity of 76 arranged as H44/32F said at the time to be an attempt to match the Atlantean/Fleetline of that era. The extra length was all behind the rear axle as can be seen by the longer rearmost side windows on both decks and the extra long rear overhang. I believe the only other company to take delivery of this extra length version of the Lodekka was Eastern National some of which may have been used on the Southend – London service, of course around this time the VR was making it’s early appearances and we all know what the Scottish Bus Group thought of that model after a very short experience.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Diesel Dave
05/08/13 – 08:18
The extra length doesn’t harm the proportions of the classic ECW design at all. The Eastern National versions were equally good looking and were used extensively around south Essex but the Central SMT colours enhanced the design just that bit more. Eastern National took the extra length FLFs in both coach and bus versions. There is an Eastern National Omnibus photo pool on Flickr which shows both versions.
Phil Blinkhorn
06/08/13 – 06:16
Initially ENOC used their 31′ FLF (F and G reg) semi-automatic buses on the 151/251/351 routes from Southend/Chelmsford to London (Wood Green), and of course from Canvey to London (WG) when the 151 was diverted there in April 1971. A couple even featured in the series On The Buses. The coach versions were used on the Southend to London (Kings Cross/Victoria) X10 service and of course this service’s variants. In their later lives with ENOC the buses were used all over Essex. Of this last sanction (236) the last chassis produced was 236.337 and still exists today in the form of AVX 975G (ENOC 2614). This coach was downgraded to bus status and re-numbered 2946. It has been preserved in its original state as 2614 and is still active today.
Although the rear overhang looks a little long, I do think that the longer rear-window on each deck gives the body a much better proportion than the “standard” FLF. 14-ply rather than 12-ply rear tyres were fitted to cope with additional rear weight – and didn’t the staircase ascend frontwards? From what I can gather, takers for the “extended” FLF were: Central SMT: 18 78-seater (1965); 40 76-seater (1966); 25 78-seater (1968) Eastern National: 33 70-seater (1967); 15 70-seater, 5 55-seater coaches (1968) Fife: 18 76-seater (1966) SOL: 25 76-seater (1966) All were, I think, Gardner 6LX powered, with the ENOC vehicles having semi-automatic transmission. The reason for the variation between 78 and 76 seats on the SBG vehicles was to allow additional luggage space on the 76-seaters – but why were ENOC so conservative in specifying only 70-seats on their bus versions? . . . in fact why not just order “standard” FLFs?? And, and . . . I’ve only driven a Lodekka twice, but I just thought they were horrible. Why did Bristol adopt that raked steering-wheel, which made one feel one was sitting – uncomfortably – in, rather than “on top of” the vehicle. AEC managed a “flat” steering wheel on the Bridgemaster and Renown (Albion’s Lowlander doesn’t count as it just used the standard Leyland Titan front-end).
Philip Rushworth
17/10/13 – 11:40
Yes, the “semis” did have the stairway reversed from the normal front-entrance Lodekkas – and it was cream and rather plasticky compared to their green. It also had an enlarged blunderbus compound. In my day, semis were number coded as “29xx”, 70-seat Front Entrance were “27xx” and “28xx”, 60-seat rear open backs were “24xx” and “25xx”, and IIRC “Big Bertha”, the only 70-seat open backer was “2601”, operating from Brentwood depot. We also had one drop-floor 4-abreast still about, which was number coded “23xx”.
United Automobile Services 1965 Bristol Lodekka FLF6B ECW H38/32F
The last time I posted one of my own photographs on site was the 14th of November 2010 which is three and a half years ago, now that was a very good run I think, thank you to all the contributors for keeping the site going. So as it as gone a little quiet it is back to my mostly Northern shots, the first being one of my favourite vehicles.
Seen in Scarborough bus station within the first few weeks of service a fine example of the Bristol Lodekka. These Lodekkas were powered by the six cylinder Bristol engine and boy could they go, especially down Burniston Road when on the Scholes Park Rd to Scarborough route I’m afraid I cannot remember the route number.
(After my beloved AECs) What could be better than a Bristol powered FLF? Well an FLF6B in Scarborough, of course. Some of my best holidays, and indeed some of my best days out, have been in Scarborough. (Only bettered by Whitby and Robin Hoods Bay – which are strangely now in the Borough of Scarborough). Much as I love East Yorkshire, Scarborough is in the North Riding and in United country. [I don’t care if you think I’m a bolshy old man. Traditional boundries do mean something.]
David Oldfield
15/05/14 – 07:28
Wonderful shot. These vehicles always looked so solid and well built. The Tilling Red ones always looked much better to me than the green fleets. The thing so fascinating about old bus photographs is the incidental stuff in the photos. The ‘Black & White Minstrel Show’ so politically incorrect by today’s standards and Roses Malton Ales. Bought out and killed off by Tetleys who in turn have been bought out and virtually killed off by Carlsberg!
Philip Halstead
15/05/14 – 09:49
Yes, Philip. You jogged a memory. The only time I ever saw the Black & White Minstrels live was at Scarborough – as was the only time I saw Tommy Cooper live. [Just like that!] Could be they looked solid and well built because they were, and I agree with you about Tilling Red.
David Oldfield
15/05/14 – 11:37
This is indeed a lovely shot of a handsome bus, set off nicely by that red livery. As a former West Yorkshire employee, I must confess to thinking that United’s livery had a slight edge over WY’s from the mid-sixties, when the latter started repainting its buses without the black edging between the red and cream. United retained the black edging and to me their livery then looked just ‘a cut above’. United’s later change to red-painted wheels rather than traditional black endeared me to the fleet even more. That said, both companies definitely maintained their own character, and as an enthusiast I still remained very loyal to West Yorkshire. David, I too must be a member (part time) of the ‘Bolshy Club’, as I know exactly what you mean about the importance of traditional boundaries. A friend who has lived in Newton-le-Willows all his life, still writes Lancashire on his address in correspondence. Newton is officially in Merseyside, but as he says, “it’s nowhere near the docks”. At least the proud folk of East Yorkshire won their battle to have the county name reinstated, instead of the ridiculous ‘North Humberside’ inflicted in 1974. To many of us the roads around Scarborough and the rest of North Yorkshire just do not look right with turquoise buses traversing them instead of red ones, and neither do the roads in Co. Durham and Northumberland. Sorry folks, rant over!
Brendan Smith
15/05/14 – 17:46
Living in the bubble that was Sheffield with AECs (and Leylands) it was always a refreshing delight to go into Tilling land during holidays. Favourites were United and Lincolnshire but I had a soft spot for West Yorkshire when I happened that way – even more so when London journeys linked me up with WYRCC RELH6G coaches. I also remember a journey on the X43 (?) from Leeds to Scarborough by RE. I then sampled the delights of Western/Southern National when we holidayed in the West Country, as well as Bristol on the way down. […..and of course that bastion of AEC, Devon General.] Oh well, nostalgia is a sign of old age. Nurse? Nurse?
David Oldfield
15/05/14 – 17:46
It’s interesting that Brendan notes distinguishing features between United’s and West Yorkshire’s liveries, even though both were Tilling red/cream. I felt the same in the south in the early 60’s, with Wilts and Dorset and Thames Valley. Both were Tilling red, but there was something in “the look” which usually made a slight difference to the eye – Wilts and Dorset had cast fleet number plates, Thames Valley had painted numbers, for example. I felt the same about green Tilling companies, such as Hants & Dorset and Southern/Western National. As a teenager enthusiast, I sometimes felt that Tilling companies could be rather boring because of the similarities. But once NBC corporate livery appeared, boring took on a new definition – ’nuff said!
Michael Hampton
16/05/14 – 06:53
According to Bus Lists on the web, full production records exist for 1714 of these Bristol’s of which 164 were for United. However, another 300 or so were built where only partial records exist, and some of them went to United, so its not unreasonable to assume that the actual number they had would have been nearer the 200 mark. Several United depots ran services into Newcastle, and they always looked well cared for. I cant speak for other depots, but I know that the coaches based at Whitley Bay depot were always washed by hand.
Ronnie Hoye
17/05/14 – 16:03
A fine picture of a well-loved marque. I think the route number from Scholes Park Road at that time would be the 116 cross-town service from Scalby Village to Eastfield Estate. This stopped at Scholes Park Road end on Burniston Road as no service down to Scalby Mills existed at the time. The Bristol FLF6B did in fact have a second coming in Scarborough in 1977. Chronic bus shortages in the United fleet for the Summer season in 1976 had seen the purchase of a variety of buses from other operators and Scarborough was blessed with some very decrepit MW6G’s from Crosville which thankfully only lasted a few months in to 1977 pending despatch to Barnsley. The shortages continued into 1977 and in June of that year United acquired four FLF6B’s from East Midland which became 545-548 in the fleet. Of these, Scarborough certainly had 546-8 – the PSV Circle records the withdrawal dates as 1/79 for 546 and later in 1979 for 547-8. My office window at the time faced onto Westborough (before pedestrianisation) and it was very obvious when 547 or 548 was dragging itself up the hill from the harbour terminus on service 106 to the Hospital which was a regular turn for these buses together with other town services. There was a bus stop right outside the office and therefore a variety of aural delights during the day. It was a rather incongruous situation whereby the delightful drone of an FLF could be followed by the raucous racket of a Mark 1 Leyland National! At the time, I lived at Cloughton Village some five miles out of Scarborough and on many occasions had need to use United service 114 into Scarborough. Up to 1978, this was a decent fast service due to an old agreement that out of town services could not pick up inbound within the Borough boundary which effectively meant picking up at Cloughton, Burniston and Scalby Villages was allowed but as soon the boundary was reached, ie Hackness Road end approx., then it was non-stop into Scarborough centre which was excellent. After the agreement was re-negotiated, it was much much slower due to many stops in the densely populated area within the borough.
My photo is of 547 ANN 566B at Scarborough Westwood Coach Park in October 1979 shortly before withdrawal.
John Darwent
17/05/14 – 16:26
Thanks John my holidays in Scarborough were in from the mid fifties to the mid sixties. Every year we had a chalet on the North Bay at Scarborough, number 99 actually, and stay in a B&B in Langdale Rd, we had two ways to get back at night. Walk to the Corner Cafe (Waffle Shop) then up through Peasholm Park, Columbus Ravine to Langdale Rd. Or up the back of the chalet over the little train line on to Scholes Park Rd, walk to the top for the bus which was parked waiting in Scholes Park Rd, it was parked about 100 yds from the junction with Burniston Rd opposite a small static caravan site, not sure how it turned round, it just seemed to be always there waiting. We would go by bus in a round about way as far as Dean Rd (Fish and Chips) then down Langdale Rd
Peter
17/05/14 – 19:10
Nice shot of 547 John. It looks in tidy condition, and it must have seemed a real shame that it was soon to be withdrawn. The bus appears to have a one-track route number blind. Was this a standard Mansfield District (its original owner) fitment when new?
Brendan Smith
18/05/14 – 06:31
547 certainly was tidy Brendan but I suppose nobody wanted slow old front engined buses by then despite its condition. I read somewhere that three-track destination numbers were introduced by Midland General on deliveries in 1966 and later, so 547 being a 1964 bus was probably equipped with original fitments said to be two track. Letters seemed to be used as prefixes (the first track) with two numbers on the second track. I’m wondering whether 547 is actually displaying I16 as a makeshift compilation. Destination displays on Mansfield District buses seems to vary somewhat between two and three apertures and perhaps somebody can throw some light on this. Peter, I’m wondering if there was a seasonal service from Scholes Park Road in the 50’s/60’s in view of what you say. My time in Scarborough started in the mid 1970’s and the earliest timetable I have is from 1984 from which I have quoted. Any buses going down Scholes Park Road could reverse at Scholes Park Avenue, so what you say is probably right. If Gordon England or Gordon Green reads this, they may be able to enlighten us! Present day services by Scarborough & District Motor Services (EYMS) operate as 3/3A and travel down Scalby Mills Road, more less parallel to Scholes Park Road, to the Sea Life Centre and then returning to Scarborough via the ‘The Sands’ residential development built on the site of the old ‘Corner Cafe’. Sadly, the aerial ride has long gone but the North Bay Railway lives on and the Open Air Theatre has recently been restored at a cost of umpteen million. Swifts Fish and Chips is on the Dean Road/Trafalgar Road corner, about 100 yards past Langdale Road- maybe the same site as you recall.
John Darwent
18/05/14 – 07:12
I have been on Google Earth, you are right about the Fish and Chip shop John but I was wrong about Scholes Park Rd it was actually Scalby Mills Rd. At the time that large Ivanhoe Pub was the static caravan site that was called the Ivanhoe Caravan site I think there was also a shop there as well but that fronted onto Burniston Rd. Sorry about that, that’s old age for you
Peter
19/05/14 – 07:16
All Midland General’s Lodekkas had two track blinds although the earliest ones were retro fitted. As John D says though, from around 1966, three track blinds began to appear which was surprising because MGO had no requirement for them apart from a few works services which had Wxx numbers. ANN 566B was a Mansfield District bus and they all had one track blinds until around 1966. MDT’s services were numbered between 1 and 219 but only about forty of the numbers were used and the blinds carried just those plus a few extras for possible future use. Both companies had via blinds until 1966 when the T layout became standard but no via apertures were ever panelled over, those which had them carried full displays at all times, until the NBC came along, that is!
Chris Barker
19/05/14 – 07:17
I know exactly what you mean Michael when you say about certain former Tilling companies having their own ‘look’. To the casual observer, the BTC/THC ‘nationalised image’ was generally that of Bristol-ECW buses finished in either a red or green livery with one or two cream bands, or in the case of coaches, cream with red or green relief. However, looking a little deeper there were many livery variations such as Brighton, Hove & District’s red with cream window surrounds and roof, Wilts & Dorset’s red, black and cream dual purpose vehicles, and South Midland’s distinctive application of maroon and cream to its coaches. The ex-Balfour Beatty companies wore a livery of blue with cream window surrounds (Midland General and Notts & Derby) or the green version (Mansfield District). Cheltenham District not only retained its distinguished maroon and cream, but also its unusual layout. Turning to coaches, Bristol OC had its Bristol-Greyhound cream and red vehicles with distinctive lettering and logo, and who could forget the cream and black coaches of Crosville? Then there were the ‘classics’ such as Western/Southern National’s Royal Blue fleet, and the equally well-regarded cream and olive green coaches of United. In later years came Eastern National’s famous cream and green Lodekka coaches. Add to the above all the differences in destination layouts, style of fleetname and fleetnumbers, and it can be observed that the BTC companies were not perhaps as rigid in nature as some people believed. It surely provided more interest to the enthusiast than any of the big privatised groups do today.
Brendan Smith
19/05/14 – 07:17
Re 547’s number blind – as John states, from the 1966 deliveries, Mansfield District (green) and Midland General/Notts and Derby (blue) standardised on 3 track number blinds (presumably at the behest of ECW,as MGO/NDT didn’t need three track number blinds until 1978 when the letter/number route numbers were renumbered into the Trent system). Prior to 1966,Lodekkas new to Mansfield District had single track number blinds, as per 547; Lodekkas new to MGO/NDT had two track number blinds. The number partly visible on 547 looks like 106, which is probably an original MDT blind – the range of numbers used in Mansfield, 101 upwards, was not dissimilar to those used in Scarborough.
Bob Gell
19/05/14 – 07:18
With regard to the ex-East Midland (ex-Mansfield District) No.547, Mansfield District did for a long time have single track route number blinds. The number of routes they operated was fairly limited, with three distinct tranches of numbers – single digit, three digit (100 series) and three digit (200 series). Midland General and Notts & Derby of the same group, also used single track blinds for many years, but later went over to two or three track (not sure which). Their route numbering system was one letter followed by a single digit number, (i.e. A1-A9, B1-B9 etc.) This gave them plenty of scope for expansion – as far as I remember, they never got beyond the G series, though there were a few express or excursion operations that did use other letters. And of course, there was the odd man out – the route 44, from Derby to Chesterfield, operated jointly with Trent and East Midland (the only service that took Midland General buses into Derby).
……and of course it be came more complicated when MGO & MDT swapped vehicles, as they often did. For a short period of deliveries MGO had 2 tracks and when such examples were moved over to the MDT fleet, as in 1969 with this 1961 FS6G, there was the need for special linen so that a 2 track blind could show 3 digits.
Berisford Jones
19/05/14 – 15:37
John D, Flattered as I am I regret that I cannot add to the discussion about the turning arrangements at Scholes Park Road. My childhood memories were of Whitby. However I can claim some connections in the area – my Uncle & Aunt lived in Ryecroft Road (just off Scholes Park Road and later my cousin on Scholes Park Road itself. In later life after marriage and a transition from transport to equestrian interests I have been a regular attender and exhibitor at Burniston Show which has occupied a number of sites in the locality.
Gordon Green
20/05/14 – 16:36
When, as a boy, I stayed with relatives in Newby in the summer, via Northstead the 116 was worked by single deckers usually an “L”. It terminated at Five Lane Ends and reversed around the corner to the stop. I don’t think it was a cross-town service then. I have a Summer 1951 timetable for the town services (100/1/2/3/4/5/6/07/9/10/13). The 113 ran between the Railway Station and Scholes Park Road – on reaching Burniston Road. The return route is just given as the reverse of the outward route. the 109 was the seafront service whilst the 110 was the Oliver’s Mount service.
Malcolm Wells
22/05/14 – 07:21
I commented earlier on the subtle differences between the supposedly same red or green liveries borne by the Tilling companies’ buses. And, of course, there were all those other variations which Brendan and others have referred to. I then stated that the NBC red or green was just plain boring. I still think that’s generally true compared with what went before, but I have to say that John’s picture of United 547 does indeed look smart. I guess it’s because the paintwork still has a shine to it, and of course the ECW bodied FLF also exudes a certain quality. However, whether they were in smart or faded red, there was little to distinguish a United FLF from, say, a Hants and Dorset FLF in NBC days. Uniformity reigned supreme!
Michael Hampton
22/05/14 – 07:23
When at college and university I spent the summers of 1966, 7 and 8 as a conductor in Scarborough. On the 113 at Scholes Pk Road the conductor was meant to use a whistle to signal to the driver when reversing. The snag was he couldn’t hear it so we always used the bell! Some drivers reversed back onto the main road, but most reversed from the main road. The service had three buses providing a 10 minute service. I still have my staff timetable for 1968 – There was a 10 min service from 07:00(9:30 on sun) – 23:10. For some reason the 23:00 terminated at Northstead. All the theatres had special journeys and I remember the Futurist had the Black and Whites at least two of the years I was in United uniform!
Mr Anon
22/05/14 – 07:24
These recollections of Scarborough and the town services, and especially the sea front service with those full fronted coaches have brought back some very pleasant memories of childhood holidays. I took this shot of BBL61 (LHN 936) opposite Corner Cafe in July of 1961 when I was just thirteen, with an old Agfa camera that my father acquired in Germany during the war. I well remember some of the town services turning round at a roundabout opposite the main harbour, and the buses threading their way through some of the narrow shopping streets leading away from the sea front and up out of the town. Some of the best holidays ever.
Dave Careless
26/05/14 – 09:33
Great picture Dave! The destination blind shows ‘The Mere’ which many will recall is where one could sail on the Hispaniola and dig for dubloons on Treasure Island. One of the ‘pirates’ did have only one leg – perhaps a war injury – a prerequisite for such a job? My Dad or Uncle knew ‘Ben Gunn’ on the island! For many years the buses on services 100 and 101 showed ‘Edgehill Road’ as the destination which meant little or nothing to holidaymakers. I recall ‘The Mere’ starting to appear on the buses at some stage. In the 1960s another uncle and auntie lived in a bungalow on Mere Lane overlooking The Mere, a smart property then but absolutely fantastic now, so we regularly travelled on the buses to visit. The last time I looked The Mere was devoid of all the little buildings/kiosks for boat hire, ice creams etc. There was once an area for water ski-ing.
David Slater
26/05/14 – 11:25
Regarding the route numbers in question, I have a 1962 faretable in which the 113 was a local service from Railway Station to Burniston Road (Scholes Park Road). The 116 was a cross-town route from Eastfield Estate (Overdale) to Newby (Four Lane Ends), but there were no short distance local fares for stages between Steamer Moor Road and Cleveland Avenue (presumably the protected area)
David Todd
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
27/05/14 – 14:03
Fascinating recollections of Scarborough town services back in the day; I think my favourite United route in the area though was the 111, which ran from Scarborough, through Filey, and on to Bridlington if I remember rightly. I can’t even think about it without suddenly smelling fish and chips, or seeing a revolving rack of ‘saucy’ seaside postcards.
Dave Careless
I am not a bus aficionado, just a casual visitor to this site. I remember Eastern National having some ‘stretched’ versions of the FLF6B or Lodekka. The rear side windows (quarterlights?) were wider, making the bus about a foot longer. However, I have not seen any photographs of them on this site. They were a very fast bus.
Martin Robinson
26/09/14 – 05:43
David C – you are right about the 111 service via Speeton and Hunmanby. It did indeed run to Bridlington where it terminated in its own little United bus station on the Promenade (east side almost opposite the superb EYMS station) – well, I say bus station but it was actually a generous forecourt in front of the booking/enquiry office, and is now the outside seating for a small cafe. Like you, fish and chips, saucy postcards, and Joyland Amusements are my treasured memories of Bridlington in the 1940s/50s where I stayed often with Grandma and Aunty Doris – now where are the Kleenex tissues (other brands are available).
Mansfield District Traction Company Limited 1963 Bristol Lodekka FLF6B ECW H38/32F
A smart looking Lodekka pictured in Mansfield in August 1968. Detail differences from the THC “norm” where the livery with its larger area of cream and the destination layout. The Bristol BVW engine would no doubt ensure a refined journey on this bus.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild
05/12/14 – 05:52
It’s good to see a shot of a Lodekka in something other than a standard Tilling red or green livery and with a different destination display. It almost gives a taste of what might have been if the Bristol/ECW make had been made available on the open market much earlier than it eventually was. There would have been no need then for the Loline and would we have seen Lodekkas in the liveries of such as Luton, Reading, Leigh, Oxford and Lancashire United and dare we say Aldershot & District. Interesting conjecture.
Philip Halstead
05/12/14 – 05:53
At the time of the photograph, Mansfield District had a multiplicity of starting points for their services in the town, this was one of them, Queen Street. Since then, one bus station has come and gone and Queen Street now runs past the frontage of the new bus station which is a short distance ahead of where this Lodekka was standing.
Chris Barker
05/12/14 – 11:35
No need for the Loline? Perhaps, but, good as the Lodekka was, the Loline was a better bus, and I’ve driven both.
Roger Cox
05/12/14 – 11:36
The link below will take you to some magnificent photos of Mansfield District buses, including one of the slightly later FLF/6G’s. Apart from livery, they look so much nicer when shorn of adverts. //midlandgeneralomnibus.
Chris Hebbron
06/12/14 – 07:10
Is it really on the pavement- because the road is already broken up? Clearly cared for- look at the undented dome. Does the camera lie or was that really the green? But seriously, did these go to West Riding, post Wulfrunian or were those Gardners?
Joe
06/12/14 – 12:01
Whilst it shouldn’t have been parked there I don’t think it’s on the pavement. It’ll be well close inasmuch as the roadway at the rear was tight. It’s not ‘on stand’. There was a small cafe just behind the photographer that survived on trade from the busmen. The 101 stand was about 100yds further on. As for the condition of the vehicle, quite normal for this operator. MDT prided themselves during the 60’s / very early 70’s in not sending any dirty or damaged vehicles out on service. That policy was sadly abandoned once ‘leaf green’ appeared in the stores!
Berisford Jones
07/12/14 – 06:13
Chris H: many thanks for the link to the gallery. The Sunbeam Sikh is nothing short of magnificent, and the rake of the steering column brings us back to Lodekkas and Lolines.
Ian T
07/12/14 – 06:15
Nice to see MDT in the spotlight. I recall my first sighting of an MDT bus when I was about 6 or 7 years old, on a walk with my grandma somewhere in the Moor Bridge area of Bulwell. I identified what I thought was an MGO AEC (same style bodywork, same destination display) but it was GREEN where I was expecting MGO blue. I remember managing to read the “Mansfield District” fleet name and was intrigued by this first (to me) manifestation of a group corporate style. Obviously I later came to understand this local grouping and always treasured the rare sightings of MDT vehicles. I think the photo captures the shade of green rather well, it was lighter than Tilling green, more a sort of apple green but its rarity in the public domain is all the more special. Local acquisitions meant that the MDT fleet contained some rarities that sister companies like MGO did not possess, but of course these feature in my my long list of pictures I should have taken but didn’t. The transfers to West Riding to replace Wulfrunians were rear-entrance LDs/FSs as far as I know, but this is one of the eras I need to revisit when I can get my time-machine working properly. I suspect I am not the only one with this problem?
Eastern National Omnibus Co Ltd 1968 Bristol Lodekka FLF6G ECW CH37/16F
AVX 975G is a Bristol Lodekka FLF6G from the Eastern National fleet and was new in 1968. As can be seen, she has the usual ECW bodywork, but this time it’s in CH37/16F format, so she has “reversed” livery. The Tilling Group’s answer to the Ribble White Ladies? Hardly – I’d prefer not to think about how this combination would look with a full front! She’s seen at Wisley on 11 April 2010.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
02/05/15 – 06:55
These coaches were some of the very last FLFs to be built. Like most people I liked them but apparently the semi auto ones were not nice to drive.
Nigel Turner
02/05/15 – 08:38
What a lovely picture – a classic very handsome vehicle of impeccable parentage showing clearly the dignity intensified by a very simple but bold livery.
Chris Youhill
02/05/15 – 09:29
A very handsome vehicle – it makes one regret that so few colour photos exist of vehicles of the era that interests us. What express services did Eastern National operate? Was there a proper bus station at Kings Cross? Birch Bros. used to use the forecourt of St. Pancras Station as a terminus, if memory serves, from a week’s course I spent in a building opposite in 1959.
Chris Hebbron
03/05/15 – 06:40
There’s an audio clip of this vehicle on the Old Bus Sounds page of this site.
Peter Williamson
03/05/15 – 06:41
Thank you for your comments, folks.
Pete Davies
04/05/15 – 07:53
Chris H, ENOC redeveloped the Tilling depot in Northdown Street into a coach station after it assumed management responsibility for Tilling – my dates are a bit vague, but there are some photographs of Northdown Street coach station on this site that were posted in response to a question I raised about the same some time ago. The volume of “The Years Between 1909-1969” (Crawley et als’ three-volume history of the “National” companies) that deals with ENOC (II or III?) will contain a detailed route history – I’m decorating my study at the moment, but I’ll have a route through the storage boxes tonight and try to post a list of ENOC express services operating in 1968 . . . unless somebody else gets there first (please!).
Philip Rushworth
04/05/15 – 07:57
It was May 1963 when Northdown Street coach station opened – all the London express services passed-through or terminated there. ENOC express routes operating “at some time” in 1968 (as far as I can work out – corrections welcomed) were: X2 Sudbury – Brixham (jt Royal Blue, Biss Bros) X3 Southend – Brixham (jt Royal Blue, Harris’s Coaches) X8 London – Southend via Airport, Direct X9 Southend – Weston-Super-Mare (jt Bristol Greyhound) X10 London – Romford – Basildon – Southend/Canvey Island (Canvey island branch ex X7 in 1967) X11 Enfield – Southend X14 London – Halstead X16 Southend – Ilfracombe (jt royal Blue) X20 Southend – Worthing X22 Southend – Folkestone X23 Southend – Hastings – Eastbourne X24 Southend – Margate – Ramsgate X25 Southend – Great Yarmouth X26 Southend Bournemouth X27 Southend – Clacton – Jaywick – Walton X28 Southend – Cambridge- Northampton – Birmingham (jt ECOC, Premier, BMMO) X29 Southend – Derby (jt Trent, Barton, Skills) X30 Southend – Southsea (DTC) X31 Basildon – Southsea (DTC) X32 Clacton – Folkestone (DTC) X33 Walton – Hastings – Folkestone (DTC) X34 Clacton – “Thanet Resorts” (DTC) X35 Southend – Royal Tunbridge Wells (DTC) X36 Clacton – Rye (DTC) X40 Gillingham – Great Yarmouth (DTC) X42 Tilbury – Walton X44 Horsham – Basildon – Harwich (DTC) X45 Sudbury – Basildon – Worthing (DTC) X46 Southend – Norwich – Sheringham X50 Harlow – Clacton – Walton/Jaywick X51 Bishop’s Stortford – Southend X52 Harlow – Felixstowe X60 London – Stansted Airport X70 Chelmsford – Great Yarmouth X71 Braintree – Great Yarmouth (ex Moores, Kelvedon, 1963, from Silver End until 1966) DTC = Dartford Tunnel Coachways, jt East Kent, M&D, Southdown X52/X70/X71 were placed in the East Anglian Express pool (jt ECOC, Grey Green) from 25.05.68: X1 London – Felixstowe via East London (ex ECOC A, GG 1) X2 London – Great Yarmouth via Bury St Edmunds (ex ECOC P, ENOC X71) X3 London – Great Yarmouth via Ipswich (ex ENOC X70, ECOC F/Q, GG 12) X12 Harwich – Sheringham (ex ECOC QQ, GG 12) X35 London – Felixstowe/Great Yarmouth via North London (ex GG 35) X52 London – Felixstowe via Harlow (ex ENOC X52) ENOC were also partners in the Essex Coast Express pool- jt Grey Green, Suttons (Clacton) – from 02.10.67: X4 London – Walton via East London (ex ENOC X12, GG 4, Suttons) X33 London – Walton via North London (ex GG 33) X80 London – Harwich (ex GG 2, incorporating ENOC stage service 80 – Grey Green purchased Colchester – Great Oakley/Dovercourt stage services of Hooks in 10.1967 to facilitate provision of a London – Harwich service via stage connection from London – Clacton service at times when traffic did not justify provision of a through coach, connecting service subsequently worked by ENOC as 80/A/B but jointly licenced to ENOC/GG/Suttons.) and not forgetting: 322 Great Cornard – Sudbury – Braintree – Dunmow – Harlow – London (stage Great Cornard-Harlow, express Harlow – London; ex Hicks Braintree-London 1950) or the Limited Stop services introduced in 1967-8: 402 Southend – Grays – Dartford 411 Southend – Chelmsford – St Osyth – Clacton – Walton 419 Southend – Maldon – Weeley – Clacton – Walton 446 Harlow – Chelmsford 453 Tilbury – Chelmsford – Clacton – Walton/ . . . and the longer stage services into London: 151 Southend (Seaway) – Pitsea – Basildon – Brentwood – Wood Green 251 Southend (Tylers Avenue) – Billericay Brentwood – Wood Green 351 Chelmsford – Brentwood – Wood Green
Philip Rushworth
05/05/15 – 07:25
What a superb and classy combination of design and colour scheme – they just look as though each was specifically created for the other….Even the ‘bling-bling’ chrome wheel covers seem right, and you don’t say that very often when you’re talking about a double decker !!
Stuart C
06/05/15 – 07:25
Your rooting was successful, Philip and I appreciate your finding out the routes. I’m amazed at the number and extent of ENOC’s Express routes, admittedly some joint, and the wide variety of places they went to as well. I don’t recall ever seeing any of their coaches, either in London, Southsea or Essex, when I periodically visited relatives in Colchester. Strange that.
Chris Hebbron
08/05/15 – 06:40
Did Tilling operators ever have DP vehicles and a hybrid colour scheme like the famous red and black NWRCC Willowbrook/Tiger Cubs ?
Stuart C
08/05/15 – 17:35
Stuart, Wilts and Dorset had a d/p livery – standard tilling red below the waist-line, and a very dark maroon/red above, with a cream waist band and other cream embellishments. It looked very handsome. I don’t have any photos to add, but I am looking at an EFE model of a Bristol LS saloon decked out in this way, and I remember coming across them on various occasions in my youth. I think Bristol Omnibus also added more cream to their standard Tilling green/cream buses when they were d/p vehicles. Did they also add more green to some cream coaches when these were demoted?
Michael Hampton
31/05/15 – 06:37
What a fine picture of a fine vehicle. Not readily apparent in the design is that from 1967 onwards, ECW adopted a one-piece glass-fibre assembly for the front upper deck of FLFs. The body outline remained unchanged, but the moulding extended from the front dome down to the top of the cream band above the cab, and as far back as the first side pillar. The practice was continued with the introduction of the Bristol VRT in 1968. For many years West Yorkshire kept a spare VRT front upper deck assembly in its Body Shop on Westmoreland Street in Harrogate. The assembly was suspended from the side of the gantry above the woodwork shop with strong ropes, and looked to be quite a substantial affair.
Brendan Smith
31/05/15 – 09:03
Well Brendan that is a surprise and I for one never realised that such a one piece assembly had been designed by the wonderful Eastern Coachworks. Another brilliant “one piece” component, which always impressed me greatly, was at the rear of the lower saloons of the VRs. This was a beautifully styled affair which, quite apart from looking neat and pleasing, no doubt shielded the passengers from engine fumes and “soot marks” which were sadly often evident in many early rear engined double deckers.
Chris Youhill
20/07/15 – 06:58
I was a conductor in Basildon in 1970 and conducted these to Kings Cross. We had special coloured Setright ticket rolls to use on the expresses.
Mr Anon
20/07/15 – 16:40
Intrigued by Philip’s list of services above, as there are two X2 and two X3 in the list London – Great Yarmouth or Southend/Sudbury – Brixham. I wondered if the latter had numbers determined by the joint operation, but the Royal Blue timetable has the Sudbury and Southend – Brixham service as X22, and joint between RB and ENOC (only). Similarly, the ENOC Southend – Ilfracombe X16 is listed as X23 in the Royal Blue book, and the X26 Southend – Bournemouth is X28 in the Royal Blue book. It seems the service was co-ordinated, but the service number not — and still leaves ENOC with two pairs of routes with the same number. (Not to mention two different X23 and X28 services at Southend).
Peter Delaney
22/09/18 – 06:43
I am trying to find information about the former eastern national bus route No.30 that ran in the early 1960s between Chelmsford and London bow(Tomlins Grove) I used to see this bus parked up in Tomlins Grove on the to school in 1963 I was wondering what happened to this route regarding service withdrawal etc. as I moved away from East London when this bus route was still operating.
Christopher Johnson
24/09/18 – 06:14
The Service 30 to Bow was replaced on January 7th 1968 by a new Service 351 running Chelmsford – Brentwood and then following the 251 route to Wood Green. The weekday service was cut back to Romford in April 1971 as were the Sunday journeys in February 1973. In 2018, Service 351 runs half hourly between Chelmsford and Brentwood.
7678 LJ is a Bristol FS6B with ECW H60RD bodywork, new to Hants & Dorset as 1478 in 1962. Under the 1971 renumbering, she became 1137. As we see, she has the offside illuminated advert panel and is in the NBC poppy red livery. She’s at Barton Park, Eastleigh in August 1976. This is where the waters become decidedly murky. The PSVC listing for this fleet (PK782) does not record her as having been painted thus, though it does mention some of her sisters, and it does not tell us when she was withdrawn. She looks to have been newly repainted in this view, but is among several withdrawn ones in W&D red, H&D green and NBC red. Any comments, folks?
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
16/07/15 – 15:30
Withdrawn in 1976 according to Peter Gould website.
Graham Woods
16/07/15 – 15:31
7678 LJ was repainted into NBC red livery in June 1975, withdrawn in August 1976, and sold to Martin (dealer) at Middlewich the following month. It had had the air suspension (at the rear) replaced by coil springs in September 1968. I don’t have information on any subsequent owners, however.
Peter Delaney
17/07/15 – 05:46
Between 1965-69 I worked as a fitter at West Yorkshire Road Car, York Depot. The air bags at the rear usually one would loose air and the flex beam that supported it would break, the other air bag could compensate for awhile. On replacing said components it had to be reset with the levelling valve by removing alloy plates near the rear seats. Also the Lodekka had upstairs heater radiators, getting the air out of the water system took sometime if the heads etc had been off. Best fitting job I had.
Peter Lister
17/07/15 – 05:47
Thank you, Graham and Peter. I’m forced to ask, if she was withdrawn in 1976 – as my photograph suggests – then why bother with the repaint? It’s like British Railways in the Beeching era – the line closes in three weeks, so let’s put down some new ballast!
Pete Davies
17/07/15 – 12:37
………or RAF stations, Pete D. If they started tarting one up, you knew it was doomed within the year! Happened twice to me!
Chris Hebbron
18/07/15 – 06:16
Been to Mildenhall recently, then, Chris H? The Pentagon have announced its closure within two or three years. The units there don’t want to move [to Germany] and the locals are hoping a Republican gets in at the next election.
Pete Davies
29/12/15 – 06:51
I think I can answer this one; As a local enthusiast at the time, I was making regular visits to Poole depot where this vehicle was based. I clearly recall this bus as it was in fact the first ‘later-style’ FS to be taken out of service, and this was because it suffered major engine failure and being fitted with a BVW unit, was withdrawn prematurely rather than being repaired (there were I believe, still some late LD’s in service at the time). Hope this is helpful!
Geoff
29/12/15 – 10:44
Thank you, Geoff. That explains everything!
Pete Davies
16/02/17 – 07:02
The picture of 1478 stirred a long-forgotten memory for me – and I’m hoping it may be something you bus detectives might be able to clear up! During a visit to my grandparents at Lee-on-Solent sometime in the mid to late sixties, I remember boarding a very similar bus (still happily in Tilling green at the time), and noticing it had an opening push-out top vent to the nearside outwardly curved window at the rear (i.e. the one on the back nearest to the platform doors). I have never seen this on any other Lodekka. The bus was most definitely an FS and it had cream window rubbers, so it would have been post 1961-62. As I was a keen enthusiast in those days, I seem to recall the registration was of the four number/two letter arrangement. It could actually be this very bus, or at least one of the same batch. Can anyone shed any light on this unique Lodekka?
Colin Plucknett
22/04/17 – 07:25
Colin, I can recall the vehicle you mention; in fact somewhere I have a photo of it, but would mean a lot of digging to find it I’m afraid! It was certainly a Southampton based FS and did have a ‘push out’ type vent (normally fitted to the front bulkhead windscreen) in the top of the rear emergency door glass. It was probably done as some kind of long forgotten experiment!
Crosville Motor Services 1954 Bristol Lodekka LD6B ECW H33/25R
This bus is from the first production sanction of Lodekkas and delivered to Crosville in March 1954. It is seen here in August 1963 at the remote terminus of the service from Holyhead to South Stack Lighthouse. I can’t imagine there has been a bus route there for many years but the bus has a few top deck passengers. I thought the original deep front grille made the Lodekka a very purposeful looking vehicle. The 58 seat layout and lack of entrance doors seemed fairly common amongst early Lodekkas, soon 60 seats and doors were standard. This was one of my earliest bus photos, taken with a Brownie 127 camera and has stood the test of time well.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild
28/01/16 – 07:12
Yes, I can remember going to South Stack on a Lodekka in 1961. It was a useful link for folk staying on holiday at Rhyl, Colwyn Bay, Llandudno etc. and who then bought railway Holiday Runabout Tickets. As I recall, the bus was pretty full in both directions. In those days, before lighthouses were automated, you could have a guided tour – very popular.
Stephen Ford
28/01/16 – 09:38
A lovely picture Ian of a very fine vehicle – and the picture conveys the fascinating “desolate cliff top” atmosphere of the location – you can almost smell the sea air!! The earliest Lodekkas (we had two such at the Ilkley depot of West Yorkshire) seated only 58 because of the large intrusive castings in the gangway intended to accommodate the twin diffs and prop shafts of the original height saving concept. By the time production commenced this had been amended to one prop shaft and diff only, and therefore the normal longitudinal seats for three could be fitted over the wheel arches, hence the capacity rising to 60. Personally I always preferred the original full depth radiator – the subsequent and later standard shorter one gave the impression that minor accident damage had been neatly repaired by shortening the bottom of the grille !!
Chris Youhill
29/01/16 – 07:12
Now Stephen, what a coincidence! We were on holiday at Llandudno – armed with a weekly rail runabout ticket for the North Wales Coast hence a visit to Holyhead and the trip to South Stack and the bus photo.
Ian Wild
29/01/16 – 12:58
Ian, I suspect Crosville’s South Stack route, and Trearddur Bay for that matter, did rather well out of the holiday runabout tickets. Holyhead was about the longest trip you could take, so everyone did it – but once you got to Holyhead it took about 3 minutes to conclude that the town was a dump! So where can we go from here?
Stephen Ford
29/01/16 – 17:37
Nice to see the photo of the Lodekka at South Stack. As can be seen , the terminus was a piece of waste ground and it was some distance from the lighthouse ,at least a quarter mile walk. Apparently the route was first introduced by the Holyhead Motor Company trading as Mona Maroon and passed to Crosville when said Company was acquired by the LMS Railway in November 1929. The 1932 Crosville timetable showed 5 weekday journeys worked as a loop – with the short double run to the terminus then referred to as Hill Top – via either Llaingoch [ which later became the N17 ] or Porthdarfarch [ which became the N19 ] , the latter involving a narrow twisting lane. By 1958 just 3 winter weekday journeys [ the morning one just twice a week ] but enhanced in the high summer so that in 1964 there was a choice of 9 journeys for July and August including a Saturday evening return at 9:25pm [21:25 hrs] and a limited Sunday service. However by 1972 there were just 4 weekday journeys which ran only in the high summer and I believe the service ceased entirely soon after , probably from early September 1973.
The attached shows the terminus in 1971 when a downgraded Bristol SC4LK coach – CSG class – was more than sufficient for the loadings. It was a nice ride but as I say a little inconvenient for visiting the lighthouse. Lovely 1963 photo. Lovely weather too.
Keith Newton
02/02/16 – 06:58
Holyhead still is a dump. Have to regularly pass through using the ferries with only the South Stack area worth visiting. The lack of Crosville hasn’t helped.
Phil Blinkhorn
03/02/16 – 13:50
What a very sad and non transport related coincidence in the news. I’m sure that I’m one of many folks who’d never heard of South Stack until this interesting topic appeared here but now the remote location is the centre of an awful murder inquiry following a distressing discovery in a house at Allerton Bywater near Castleford West Yorkshire of a mother and two children in their home – it seems fairly certain that the suspected perpetrator has himself been found dead at South Stack, perhaps the best part of a hundred miles away – very very sad.
Chris Youhill
28/09/16 – 06:33
The CSG photographed at South Stack is very likely to be CSG 637 (198 KFM) which was allocated to Holyhead depot. Holyhead also had SSG 677 (250 SFM). Holyhead needed two Bristol SCs because of the N1 route to Amlwch which was too narrow north of Rhydwyn for anything bigger.
Tim Mills
19/03/17 – 07:02
Arriva Cymru were still running form Holyhead to South Stack in April 2006 – I had a trip there in an East Lancs-bodied Dennis Dart. What a lovely photograph of the Lodekka. Interesting that it still had its 3-part blind in place.
Bristol Omnibus 1957 Bristol Lodekka LDL6G ECW H37/33RD
Among the 250 LD chassis built in 1957 as the 134th sanction were scattered six chassis to the new legal length on two axles of 30ft. They are generally referred to as type LDL, but I have seen LLD used in some factory documents. Bristol Omnibus L8450 is numerically the last and seen here looking miserable in late 1962 at the Holly Lane, Clevedon terminus of service 25. I seem to remember that as well as being the first 30ft long Bristol double deckers, instead of the then standard vacuum assisted hydraulic system, they had compressed air servo hydraulic brakes, as later adopted for the Flat Floor (F) series chassis. Whether the LDL had air suspension, I can’t recall. Perhaps the last eight vehicles of the 138th sanction, designated LDS that went to Brighton, were used for air suspension trials, which also became a very successful standard on the F series (and eventually the RE!). As a graduate trainee at BOC, I remember being allocated this vehicle for an evening overtime duty. As a novice driver, with a full load at Bristol Bus Station, to my embarrassment, I was unable to release the handbrake! A helpful inspector recommended depressing the footbrake at the same time and hey presto all was well! The Lodekka front cowl hitherto had a single foot hold each side of the central number plate, but these six and subsequent flat floor models had a step to accommodate two feet to the nearside. The ECW body is distinguished by having an extra short bay upstairs, otherwise you may miss the longer last bay downstairs. There was also an extra emergency exit – the saloon window behind the cab would open. It retained the original rear door window layout with the larger radius top corners towards the centreline, rather than the arrangement on the F series where the larger radius top corners were outboard. The six vehicles must have been very successful prototypes as they stayed in service in one form or another for a good lifetime.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Geoff Pullin
31/03/16 – 06:50
Comparing this photo with photos of a ‘conventional’ 27ft LD it seems the extra length for the 30 foot LDL was all accommodated in the rear overhang. In other words the wheelbase seems to be the same for both models. Have I got this right or is it a trick of camera angle on the photos? If this is the case it must have pushed the Construction and Use Regulations to the limit!
Philip Halstead
31/03/16 – 06:51
Another great view from your collection, Geoff! I have a view of one of the VDV series in my pile of forthcoming submissions to Peter.
Pete Davies
01/04/16 – 07:01
Philip, I don’t think that is quite right. The LDL body had the same window spacing as the FL, and F-series window bays were slightly longer than those on an LD. The wheelbase of the LDL would therefore have been slightly longer than for an LD. The FL had its rear axle further back still, so that it straddles the last long bay and the short bay. Possibly experience with the LDLs led to this change. It’s also noteworthy that the driver’s cab offside windows in the LDL are of the pattern used for the F-series, i.e. with a straight lower edge.
Nigel Frampton
01/04/16 – 07:02
Philip, it does appear at first glance that the LDL Lodekka’s extra length was achieved simply by lengthening the rear overhang. However, the LDL had a longer wheelbase than the LD (18ft-6ins as opposed to 16ft-8.5ins) allowing the chassis outriggers and corresponding body pillars to be spaced further apart. You would never guess this initially from the photo though would you? Personally I prefer Bristol-ECW’s positioning of the short extra bay towards the rear on the LDL, rather than amidships as on AEC-Park Royal’s 30ft version of the Routemaster. Bristol-ECW’s treatment looks neater somehow. (Dons tin hat and waits to be hit over head with tin tray). Geoff, I believe that whereas Bristol designated the long wheelbase model LDL, for some reason ECW referred to the design as LLD, the ‘alternative’ designation you mention in your text. Also, from memory the fitting of an emergency exit on the offside towards the front was a legal requirement on double deckers of this length, regardless of whether or not platform doors were fitted. Your embarrassing moment with the handbrake reminded me of a somewhat similar embarrassment I had as a West Yorkshire Central Works apprentice, serving a three-month stint at Harrogate’s Grove Park depot. I had been asked by my fitter Johnny Berry to bring a dual-purpose MW up from the bottom end of the depot and park it up at the top end. All went well until it came to stopping the engine. Could I find a push or pull type stop button or a stop switch? I left the bus defiantly ticking over with the handbrake on, and asked Johnny – an easy going fitter who also had a love of buses and coaches – how to stop the little blighter. He just said, tongue-in-cheek, that it was up to me to find out! Not to be thwarted, I double-checked the handbrake was fully on, stepped on the footbrake, put the MW into gear and let the clutch pedal up and the bus gave up without a struggle. Johnny said he was impressed, but said if I had simply pulled the accelerator pedal fully up it would have stopped the engine! I would have known this if I’d been brought up on older Bristols, he mentioned with a wry smile. Lovely man. Happy days.
Brendan Smith
01/04/16 – 12:11
Brendan, I don’t know when a lower deck emergency door at the front became a legal requirement. This is a 1957 vehicle, and yet the NGT Group and NCT 30ft PD3’s of 1958, didn’t have one.
Ronnie Hoye
01/04/16 – 15:14
I wonder whether the lower deck emergency door requirement depended on seating capacity? In July 1959 Portsmouth Corporation took delivery of five Leyland PD3/6 with Orion bodywork. The layout was H36/28R, so just 64 seats in a 30-footer. There was no off-side lower-deck emergency door on these as delivered. However, between Nov 1961 and Nov 1962, they were all up-seated to H38/32R. Now seating 70 (still with an open rear entrance), they were all fitted with an off-side emergency door, in the front bay behind the driver’s cab. This modification was carried out when each was re-seated. The local enthusiast understanding at the time (of the school-boy variety) was that the seating increase was the cause of the emergency door fitment. However such hear-say does not necessarily have a basis in fact.
Michael Hampton
02/04/16 – 06:27
Michael, it may be that by 61/62, the regulations had changed, and in order for the Portsmouth vehicles to be up-seated they needed to comply with the regulations at that time. The NCT PD3’s were H41/32R Orion bodies. The NGT group were 13 Burlingham H41/32RD for SDO, the remainder were Orion H41/32R, but as mentioned before, none had a front emergency exit
Ronnie Hoye
02/04/16 – 06:28
Intriguing information indeed Ronnie and Michael, which has caused some head scratching at this end, leading to a splinter in me finger. I do remember Leeds CT’s 30ft rear entrance Roe-bodied CVG6LX/30s and Regent Vs (MCW and Roe-bodied examples) having emergency exit windows in the first offside bay. I also thought that LCT’s 30ft Roe-bodied Titan PD3s of 1958 had them, but have now seen photographic evidence that proves otherwise! Could it be that the Construction & Use regulations were changed at some point along the lines of “vehicles built after a certain date must have….”? The plot thickens as they say.
Brendan Smith
02/04/16 – 07:17
Sheffield had 71 rear entrance Regent Vs in 1960 – delivered between January and April. The 25 Roes had platform doors and a rear emergency door – but none behind the driver. The 26 Weymanns had no emergency exit behind the driver. The last to arrive were the 20 Alexanders which DID have the emergency exit behind the driver. One can only surmise that regulations changed during the build &/or delivery of these vehicles.
Mr Anon
02/04/16 – 09:08
This interesting aspect concerning additional emergency exits confirms my present day terror about riding on most modern double deckers carrying around ninety persons. As if the lack of a central normal exit isn’t bad enough – causing havoc to punctual running but that’s another topic – there is only the tiniest slender emergency door at the rear offside of the lower saloons. In many cases this “arrow slit” is further reduced at its lower end by a rigid armrest for the long seat for five. I just cringe at the thought of an engine fire, or of the front door being disabled in an accident as there could only by mass panic in the manner of recent tragic football ground carnages. The often found alternative “in emergency break glass” is a farce too – so if you survive the emergency incident per se you risk being cut to ribbons by the alternative. I freely admit to avoiding travelling on any bus where there are huge numbers of standing passengers in addition to to oversized buggies and “staircase gangway blockers – I’m only going a couple of stops.” Melodramatic I may admittedly sound, but I’m sorry to say that today’s double deckers in particular are a disaster waiting to happen – and we won’t stray here onto today’s criminally overcrowded trains.
Chris Youhill
02/04/16 – 09:55
The Aldershot & District Loline I buses of 1958 had rear entrance bodies with doors but no offside emergency exit. The front entrance Loline IIIs of 1961 onwards had emergency exits on the offside rear. However, the batch of City of Oxford front entrance Dennis Loline IIs also of 1961, albeit of 27ft 6ins length, had no offside emergency door. The Halifax Front entrance PD3s of 1959 did have a rear offside emergency exit. Operator discretion seems to have applied up to about 1960, but somewhere about then the rules must have changed. I’ve tried to find the regulations on the internet, but historic data seems to be rather elusive.
Roger Cox
02/04/16 – 10:25
Further thoughts – the possible provision of a centre rear emergency exit may explain the absence of an offside door on the Oxford Lolines. My high mileage memory can’t now recall if they were so fitted.
Roger Cox
02/04/16 – 16:09
I think you may be onto something with your centre rear emergency exit theory Roger. ECW did not fit offside emergency exits on the Lodekka FSF/FLF bodies, and Northern Counties halfcab front entrance ‘decker bodies do not appear to have had them either. Both designs did however have their emergency exit door mounted centrally within the lower deck rear bulkhead. Going back to rear entrance double-deckers, LT’s first 30ft long Routemasters, delivered in 1961, had emergency exit windows on the offside. In Ken Blacker’s excellent book ‘Routemaster’ he describes the main features of the initial batch of RMLs, and then goes on to state: “Also new was the provision of a quick release emergency window in the second offside bay of the lower saloon to provide the secondary means of escape required by law for vehicles of this length”. Unfortunately we’re still no nearer knowing when such legislation was introduced. As you say, related information on the internet does indeed seem to be rather elusive.
Brendan Smith
03/04/16 – 07:37
I think I’ve got it. It seems to be about lower deck seating capacity and the positions of other exits, and it dates from 1958. Here is an extract from Regulation 26 of the Public Service Vehicle (Conditions of Fitness) Regulation 1958, which came into effect on 11th April of that year: (a) A half-decked vehicle, a single-decked vehicle with permanent top and the lower deck of a double-decked vehicle shall be provided with not less than two exits (one of which may be an emergency exit) which shall not both be situated on the same side of the vehicle. (b) Where, in the case of a single-decked vehicle and the lower deck of a double-decked vehicle, the seating capacity, in either case, exceeds 30 passengers, and the exits provided in accordance with condition (a) of this paragraph are so placed that the distance between lines drawn at right angles to the longitudinal axis of the vehicle and passing through the centres of such exits at gangway level is less than 10 feet, an additional exit shall be provided at a distance of not less than 10 feet
Peter Williamson
03/04/16 – 07:38
According to Commercial Motor, November 13th 1953, the Construction and Use regulations were to be changed as “The Ministry says that the dangers of having both exits at one end of the vehicle have been increased by the use of large underfloor-engined single deckers, and particularly crush-loaders. Consequently, it is proposed that in a single-decker or on the lower deck of a double-decker, each seating more than 28 people, one exit shall be at least 10 ft. forward of the other, taking the measurement opposite the centre of each exit at gangway level.” Hence why the FLF Lodekkas had the emergency door at the back, whereas the LDL had the additional door at the front.
Peter Delaney
04/04/16 – 06:36
Peter and Peter, thank you very much indeed for solving the emergency exit window mystery for us. In only a matter of days, the ‘OBP Supersleuths’ have won through yet again.
Brendan Smith
04/04/16 – 11:05
Thanks seconded! I’ve been wondering for some time whether Construction and Use regulations still exist, perhaps under another name. Googling has thrown up quite a lot on accessibility for the disabled, but nothing on other aspects of design and build. Could someone point me in the right direction? Thanks.
Ian Thompson
04/04/16 – 11:06
So the school-boy enthusiasts in Portsmouth weren’t wrong! But I doubt if any of them had read the C&U regulations – I certainly hadn’t. But thank you to both Peters for tracking down the detail, so that we are all now wiser, as well as just older.
Michael Hampton
04/04/16 – 17:04
The main C&U regs seem to date from 1986, with some amendments in 1988, but a new set came out last year. I’ve not had a chance to look at them – out on the road!: SEE: www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/
Christopher Hebbron
30/04/16 – 12:14
With the exception of the Eastern National example 236 LNO which had the same 19ft 2in wheelbase as the FL, the other LDLs had an 18ft 8in wheelbase. There was also the 1966 LDL, a paper exercise for what I’ve read described as a Bristol Arab V, that would have had an 18ft 6in wheelbase.
Stephen Allcroft
29/08/16 – 06:32
I was a conductor at H & D Poole in the late 1970’s and we had a couple of these lengthened versions. The one thing I do remember is that they rode much more smoothly than the normal versions, even the rougher drivers couldn’t send you down the bus. Unfortunately although I passed my test in early 1979 I never got to drive one.
Joe C
22/01/19 – 07:23
Unlike the standard RMLs, the RCL Green Line version didn’t have an emergency window fitted to the offside second bay. In his book “Routemaster”, Ken Blacker states that “…they had no emergency window fitted into the offside of the lower deck as the one on the rear platform met the legislation”. It would seem from previous comments that it more likely one wasn’t required as they only seated 29 in the lower deck. If London Country (and later London Transport in 1980) had upseated them to the normal capacity of 72 on being relegated to bus duties presumably an emergency window would have needed to be fitted. Luckily that didn’t happen and they continued to offer a far superior ride!
SRU 981 was new to Hants & Dorset in 1956 as their 1368. It is a Bristol LD6 with ECW body H60R seating when new. The Bristol engine was replaced by a Gardner in 1961, making it a Bristol LD6G and doors were fitted in that year. In the first view, on Southampton Common on 6 May 1979, it has been sold to the Cotswold Hotel as a mobile dining facility. The occasion is the Southampton City Transport Centenary rally.
In this second view, taken on 2 April 1995, it is in the Southampton Citybus yard in Portswood, in the livery of Hants & Dorset Trim. It was with the ‘new’ Crosville, in Weston Super Mare when the 2012 PSVC list was compiled.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
11/08/16 – 06:30
Would I be right in thinking that SRU981 would have been one of the first Lodekkas with the squarer front grille as opposed to the deeper front panel on earlier models? Also I notice in the lower picture that Lucas combination tail lights have been fitted. Originally I think that model had a stop/tail bulb on the inside of the body behind the reflectors. This meant that the stop lights were virtually impossible to see in sunny weather, and after a short while when the bulbs & inside of the reflectors got dusty, making them impossible to see in just about any conditions. I think originally indicators were fitted on the sides at the front only (like Southampton Corporation for a while) but later round Lucas indicators were fitted above the reflectors. Saved a lot of money in rear corner panel repairs by doing that!
OHR 919 is a Bristol LD6G with ECW H60RD body, new to Wilts & Dorset in 1956. In October 1972, under NBC direction, Wilts & Dorset was absorbed into the neighbouring Hants & Dorset, with both fleets adopting the (poppy) red livery. After withdrawal from normal service, it was converted for use as a driver training vehicle, in yellow livery.
There is, however, such a thing as life after the ancillary fleet, and we see it, and the original style of fleetname in the Netley rally on 8 June 2008.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
08/12/16 – 06:03
A lovely example of an LD Lodekka looking its best and unsullied by CBC between decks radiators. This was my favourite style of ECW body on the LD, having the sloping edge to the canopy (mirrored on the offside by the lower edge of the cream band above the cab), push out vents to the front upper deck windows, upper deck cream band carried around the front, horizontal bottom edge to the cab door window, and the ‘whiskers’ above the radiator grille. Just wonderful. Wilts & Dorset 628 reminds me very much of West Yorkshire’s DX44-58 (RWY822-836) delivered in 1956/57. The sound effects were different to 628’s however, as they were LD6Bs with Bristol AVW engines, apart from DX48 (RWY826) which was fitted with a Gardner 6LX engine by West Yorkshire in 1958. A minor point of interest is that 628 appears to have acquired an early F-Series Lodekka cowl at some point. The giveaway is the registration plate, which is offset to the offside in order to accommodate the elongated hole for the revised step for crews to access the destination winding handles. The LD cowls had a centrally-mounted registration plate with a smaller hole and step either side of it. This minor detail does not detract from the appearance of this beautiful vehicle whatsoever. It’s a credit to its owner.
Brendan Smith
08/12/16 – 06:04
Lovely photo, Pete. How nice to see a Lodekka in a rich red colour, rather than the green that pervaded most of these vehicles.
Chris Hebbron
08/12/16 – 08:37
Thank you, Brendan & Chris. I suppose the red, being the standard Tilling, was the same shade as Brighton Hove & District, Cumberland, United, West Yorkshire and one or two more. Certainly more “distinguished” than what followed in NBC days!
Pete Davies
08/12/16 – 09:28
I’m sure that the Wilts & Dorset Tilling red was the same as applied to Cumberland, United, West Yorkshire, as mentioned above by Pete. I’m not so sure that the Brighton Hove & District red was the same. Although it was a Tilling company, the livery was the same as that applied to Brighton Corporation. The different application of the amount of cream (that DOES look a different shade to the others) for that fleet makes the red look a different shade – but this may be a deception. Perhaps someone has a factual knowledge.
Michael Hampton
10/12/16 – 06:37
If United buses weren’t this shade of red, they were only a kick in the proverbial off it. I don’t know about Wilts and Dorset, but round about the mid 60’s, United changed the wheel colour to red. Only a handful of VR’s were ever in the traditional United livery, but the upper cream band had disappeared.
Ronnie Hoye
10/12/16 – 10:17
Thank you, Michael & Ronnie.
Pete Davies
14/12/16 – 15:40
Lodekkas by Colour Dear Chris, I wondered at your statement that green Lodekkas were in the majority, so I looked through the production table in Martin Curtis’ excellent book. Of the 25 fleets in BTC “Tilling Group”/|THC ownership that took new Lodekkas, 13 were green; if by the time of the delivery of Westcliff on Sea’s six they wore the same livery as their parent company Eastern National. Thus 11 of the BET/ THC fleets were not green. Two (Midland General/ Notts & Derby) being blue and the others red or (Cheltenham District) maroon. Within the Scottish Omnibuses group only one fleet took green Lodekkas new, with two using blue and the rest varied shades of red and maroon. That equates to fourteen green fleets and seventeen not green. Note this is based on data as new, with one FLF going to Bristol Commercial Vehicles experimental Department, and this was also red. However, when the figures are totalled for “green” Lodekkas, you are vindicated in that “green” fleets took 2945 and not-green fleets took 2271 (plus one new as a manufacturer’s test bed, giving 2272). That is 56 per cent to forty four. My perception was skewed by living in the East Midlands when Lodekkas were in service and holidaying with either mother’s family in Norfolk or father’s in Northumberland… Of the fleets taking the most Lodekkas, first was Crosville with 539, then Bristol OC (including Gloucester, Bath Services and Bath Tramways) with 539. Of course some of Crosville’s were new in cream with black relief, but less than fifty if my guess is right. (I could re- read the whole book now but that seems excessive when I promised Wikipedia a Guy Arab article around a year ago and it just needs citations to finish.) Eastern National was third with 381, with if memory serves 25 new in mainly cream, so even if we had a recount on that basis it would still be a Brexit sort of majority, rather less than the Scottish Indyref style one the raw figures give. Of course my electoral college would give the result to not-green. Fourth was Central SMT who took 355, initially LD6Gs then FSF6Gs, FLF6Gs FS6Gs and from 1965-67 FLF6LX’s; of the three Lodekkas at Glasgow Vintage Vehicle Trust’s Bridgeton Bus Garage, two are ex-Central a 1957 LD6G and a 1968 FLF6LX. Now of the shades of red used for new deliveries, Central it seems had the darkest, but it may have been the same as Cheltenham District and almost certainly David Lawson. Western, Alexander (Perth City and Kirkcaldy Town services) and Highland (second-hand) had Scottish Bus red which was darker than Tilling red. It may be the greater areas of cream but I think Brighton Hove and District did use a brighter shade of red than ‘Tilling’ red; maybe perversely, this was actually the same red used by Thomas Tilling in Brighton and (pre-LPTB) London. The brightest red on new Lodekkas was that used by Alexander (Fife) after the split of Alexander into three in 1961. The shade was Ayres red, the same as British Road Services used. (In a former home I was able to sell Fife FRD 187 (BXA 452B) from its non-PSV use to preservationists who have restored it.) I do not think that Thames Valley had any of their Lodekkas delivered in the maroon and cream coach livery although some were repainted thus. Now the English blue fleets were maybe slightly darker than the Scottish but both shades were described as Azure blue. Lothian Green, used by Scottish Omnibuses from 1965 was probably a little darker than Tilling green but under some lighting conditions prints of Eastern Scottish Fleetlines made me think of Mansfield District VRTs. Prior to 1965 a light green and cream was used with dark green mudguards and lining out. Out of the Alexander Companies post-split, Northern received no Lodekkas, which had been ordered for the Fife and south regions (including Lawson) and only had two forward-entrance half cabs until 1978 when a half-dozen former Eastern National FLFs were transferred to them. Northern General group were as far as I can recall the only former BET affiliate to get cascaded Lodekkas and it happened twice; both times before the corporate livery era, some were green and some red. More power to OBP!
Stephen Allcroft
10/05/19 – 06:53
I note the comment about the early FS style bonnet – it is from OPN 801 which was with Wilts & Dorset at the same time as OHR 919. I have a photo of OHR with the registration OPN 801 still applied before the OHR 919 plate was fitted.
Here is my photo of OHR 919 carrying the bonnet from OPN 801 taken at Barton Park, Eastleigh in August 1983.
Dave Mant
11/05/19 – 06:58
I see that the preservationists have removed the Hants & Dorset sunshade from the windscreen to revert to the correct style for Wilts & Dorset (and everybody else). Is there a definitive reason why Hants & Dorset persisted for so long with their unique sunshades? I am sure that the sun in Hampshire and the eastern part of Dorset is no brighter than elsewhere. Perhaps it was a union rep’s obsession that the company felt it had to concede to avoid terrible consequences. Does anybody know the REAL reason?
