United Automobile Services 1952 Bristol KSW6B ECW H32/28R
Following all the recent enthusiastic comment regarding the Western National KS5G photo, I thought I would submit this, taken from a recently rediscovered early slide of mine. United’s BH27 (originally BBH27), PHN 809, a KSW6B, is seen operating the 109 Seafront Service around North Marine Drive in Scarborough in 1966, previously the sole preserve of the dedicated ‘Queen Mary’ Bristol LWL’s. New in 1952, this fine machine was withdrawn the following year, and after being stored for a further year or so was sold to North’s, the dealer, who sold it for scrap.
Ah, Scarborough 1966 – my last year at school. We had a week’s geography field course in Scarborough. Stayed at a hotel on Castle Road, not far from the Court House where all the United town services started and terminated. I seem to remember many of them were in the hands of KSWs. We had some free time on the Sunday afternoon and three of us set off on a KSW out to Cloughton, then walked up the closed but still intact Whitby railway line as far as Stainton Dale station. Very picturesque and great fun.
Stephen Ford
29/03/12 – 11:44
As anyone who’s been on this site for long enough will know, I’m an AEC man. If you pay attention, you’ll also know I’m a Bristol/Bristol man. Many happy holidays, as a kid, in Scarborough confirmed this and Bristol engined KSWs like this (along with similar engined Lodekkas) are part of the happy memories. I can remember days like this along the Marine Drive – and also the sea fret which was like a cloak around you!
David Oldfield
29/03/12 – 17:57
I would imagine that the area covered by United must have made them ‘Geographically at least’ one of the biggest operators in the Tilling Group. Their territory included parts of the Scottish Border Region, the whole of Northumberland and Durham, parts of Cumberland and Westmoreland and a huge chunk of North Yorkshire, in addition, they had a lot of what would now be called ‘Inter City Express Routes’ including the legendary twice daily Tyne Tees Thames service. Apart from any vehicles that came into the fleet as a result of takeovers, they were all HN Darlington registrations. I don’t have a clue how many vehicles they had, but they were always immaculate and would put many an operator to shame
Ronnie Hoye
29/03/12 – 17:57
What a nostalgic shot this is, it looks to be a very bracing day on the Scarborough sea front. This one has special meaning for me as well, as I took some of my first bus photographs with the family Agfa at the Corner Cafe while on holiday in Scarborough in the summer of 1961. I ended up with quite a few rear end views, some better than others, simply because I was quite young and shy at the time, and thus a bit reluctant to point the camera at a bus load of passengers staring at me through the windows! Consequently I still have in my collection a rather nice shot of the back end of NHN 149, waiting to depart the North Sands terminus on local service 108 to Holbeck Road. Happy days.
Dave Careless
03/02/13 – 06:58
Brighton in the early 50s had a lot of B H & District Bristol buses and if anyone from Brighton remembers the route 14, on that route was a Bristol bus that seemed to have more power than its contemporise. The 14 served a cross country route from East Brighton to Hove. This particular bus must have been supercharged or something similar. I think the registration began with HAP…
Wilts & Dorset Motor Services 1952 Bristol KSW5G ECW L55R
Here is a view of HMR 59, a Bristol KSW5G with ECW bodywork. By the time of this view, the 1952 vehicle had been relegated to training duties. She’s seen in the yard of the Hants & Dorset depot in Southampton, in March 1975. By this time, NBC amalgamations were in full swing, and the Wilts & Dorset fleet name was soon to disappear.
The view is of particular interest in that both fleet names appear, in Tilling style, on the side.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
01/08/13 – 18:24
I well remember the changeover to Hants and Dorset in the Salisbury area. A typical NBC waste of money. Everyone I knew always said they were travelling on “the Wilts”. Under different management we have W&D back but in the Salisbury area they call themselves “Reds” and in Poole/ Bournemouth they are known as “More”. Goodness knows what this is supposed to mean.
Paragon
03/08/13 – 14:28
I know what you mean about names. locally we have buses run by ‘Et Cetera’ in the Chobham area. It sounds like they were an afterthought! Whatever is wrong with good old-fashioned no-nonsense titles, that did what it said on the tin?
Grahame Arnold
04/08/13 – 06:47
Grahame. I think you’ll find that the outfit you are talking about is the illiterate ExCetera – from Croydon – who seem to be cleaning up in Surrey at the moment. Living in Ottershaw, I am often in and around Chobham but have not seen them in service there yet. Working regularly around Croydon, I have seen quite a lot of them – and in the intervening territory.
David Oldfield
04/08/13 – 14:52
David Thank you for the correction. I also live in Ottershaw (26 years now) so we may have crossed paths at some point. I have seen the ‘Ex Cetera’ brand name on the Chobham-Woking route but there are no doubt others, as you say.
Grahame Arnold
05/08/13 – 08:04
I was in Guildford yesterday and there was a Buses Excetera vehicle passing me. There also appears to be a Coaches Excetera arm as well, the website not only giving a London Phone contact number, but also a Milan one! they do seem to cover the Croydon Epsom, Guildford corridor.
Chris Hebbron
05/08/13 – 10:33
Chris. I believe the coaches arm came first but I also suspect that it was a pre-existing company known by another name.
David Oldfield
05/08/13 – 17:42
FWIW, I read on the web that the Excetera came out of Croydon Coaches, but when I rang the latter, I was told that the Excetera had come out of EPI Coaches, also of Croydon and London.
Chris Hebbron
06/08/13 – 06:11
As a Croydonian whose wife comes from Guildford, and who spent many formative years in the bus industry at Reigate with LT(CB&C) and LCBS, and at Aldershot with the “Tracco”, together with years of moonlighting with Tillingbourne and North Downs, I prefer to remember the bus network in those parts as it was before the devastating Black Death known as Deregulation. Nowadays, whole swathes of industry, not just transport, are besotted with ‘rebranding’, for which they surrender stupendous sums to shiny suited simpletons in the “marketing” sector, and, in return, receive offerings of extreme absurdity that appear to emanate from the ludicrous world of Edward Lear. Grahame asks why things cannot now do what they say on the tin. Sadly, and increasingly, they often do – the tin has very little in it. Public service is now so shaky that one concludes it must be a punishable offence.
Roger Cox
06/08/13 – 08:23
I worked in Guildford, early ’60’s, working at Bridge House (long gone), by the station. We nicknamed it Bridge House over the River Wey! I’ve visited the town periodically over the years (wife grew up in Woking). I also seem to recall Safeguard, too. Also, an LT presence, with GS’s and RLH’s at Onslow Street. Is it still there?
Chris Hebbron
06/08/13 – 08:27
Grahame. Saw one in Woking yesterday morning. Roger, don’t hold back. [No, I agree with you all the way.]
David Oldfield
06/08/13 – 11:49
Chris, Guildford town centre (many locals continue to be under the misapprehension that the place is a city by virtue of its cathedral) was “remodelled” in the ’70s around the river Wey crossing area with a brutish, concrete abomination of a one way system that, amongst other things, obliterated the fine Farnham Road bus station. Onslow Street bus station over a footbridge on the other side of the river disappeared too, and Guildford now has its decidedly basic Friary bus station adjacent (inevitably) to a big shopping complex of that name on the site of the old Friary Meux Brewery. Mercifully, the old Dennis building at the junction of Bridge Street and Onslow Street has survived the devastation. Progress? (Another thing – have you noticed that policemen look younger these days?)
Roger Cox
06/08/13 – 18:00
Roger, having spent many years involved with marketing from both sides of the fence, as it were, I can’t let your remarks on “shiny suited simpletons” pass without comment. Marketing – as opposed to sales, is a very tenuous art, perhaps even a dark art. Over nearly 50 years I’ve seen it evolve (or should that be dissolve) from a tool to solidly position products and services in the mind of the buyer to a cure all for poor management decisions, badly thought out products and lack of understanding of the needs of the potential market. Unfortunately water finds its own level and if you are running a marketing company, an ad agency or a design house and you find that poorly conceived ideas are just as much accepted and command just as much income as those which take real thought, testing and development, the tendency is to take the line of least resistance. Equally to blame as poor managers who are prepared to accept lazy or shoddy marketing are the purchasers of the products and services so presented. There seems to be a trend in these islands where, as long as the product is cheap enough, doesn’t take effort to access or is perceived to be offered by a large enough institution, people take a laissez faire attitude. Just look at some of the very poor, banal and often totally irrelevant product advertising on TV. What sort of management allows an ad with a strap line “92% of 121 women agree”. More to the point, what sort of end user accepts such rubbish and even makes a purchasing decision on such an ad? Unfortunately far too many. This attitude extends into far more important matters: banks, for instance who change their terms and conditions at will to their benefit yet, if you as the other party to the contract want to make changes, you are told you can’t. Then the same bank will run an ad supported marketing campaign praising its customer friendly attitude and encouraging you to discuss your finances “in branch” – YUK! So, don’t blame those who provide the tools for such mediocrity, they are just trying to make a living and responding to the feedback they get from those that buy their services. That attitude may be morally bankrupt but morality in business can be a sure fire way to bankruptcy. Rant over!
Phil Blinkhorn
06/08/13 – 18:02
Policemen may indeed look younger but this retired one didn’t when he looked in the mirror this morning! The country must be getting very dangerous as all the coppers go about in pairs. Some of them look so young I am tempted to say to them what the Colonel said to the young officer in Dad’s Army “Haven’t you got a comic to read boy?” Seriously though they do a difficult job and in my experience it has always been a case of Lions led by Donkeys which also sums up much of our dear old country today. Back to the posting. I do miss the sight and sound of Bristols trundling round the streets of Salisbury.
Paragon
07/08/13 – 06:55
Thx for the update, Roger. So another town has been partially spoiled in the name of progress. You mention Guildford being thought of as a city, but many thought it the county town, too. Maybe it is now, with Kingston being lost to Greater London! Damn Edward Heath for his county meddling! I do know that Woking, a pleasant enough town in the 1970’s, is really ruined these days! But I digress.
Chris Hebbron
07/08/13 – 06:56
Phil, I accept all your comments on the matter of marketing. Ultimately, the client has to bear the blame for accepting trashy publicity and absurdly exaggerated product description. I, too, have gazed upon television advertising in bewilderment as product promotion soars to stratospheric heights of improbability and idiocy. You will have a better knowledge than I of the costs of each individual form of media advertising, but, when a telly advert screeches on for several minutes at outrageous cost without giving a clue to its ultimate product USP, then one wonders what measure of expenditure control is exerted at the client company. Branding has become a particular nonsense, and one suspects that some of the smaller clients are being bamboozled by professional marketeers into accepting names that belong more in a Doctor Who script or a Tolkien novel than in the real world of product placement. Sententious twaddle infects almost everything we see around us nowadays. The guy across the road works for the local housing association, which has adopted the utterly meaningless moniker “Luminus” (serves ’em right that it is usually referred to as “Loony Mouse”). His van bears the utterly vacuous slogan, “Demonstrating a more excellent way of doing business”. Quite apart from the uselessness of this blurb – the van isn’t demonstrating anything – whoever thought that up knows nothing of English grammar; you cannot have varying degrees of excellence – it is an absolute. Yet we see this sort of gibberish in advertising all around us now. End of my rant. I must press a cold flannel to my forehead. I must sound like King Lear screaming into the face of the storm.
Roger Cox
07/08/13 – 08:27
Kingston is still the County Town following the failure to decamp to Woking a year or two back. Despite the abomination that is the “Friary area”, Guildford is still a “nice town” in other parts of the centre – that cannot be said of Woking which has an even worse “bus station” (the road outside the railway station). As a pilcock, sorry pillar, of the Church of England, for many years I was under the illusion that a Cathedral imposed city status on a town. I was only disabused of this quite recently. There is at least one plaque on Guildford High Street extolling the virtues of the City of Guildford. Well, it would be better than some recently ennobled towns!
David Oldfield
07/08/13 – 13:07
Roger, in explaining the evolution and descent of much of marketing into mediocrity I failed to mention that, like you, I rage against such rubbish. Another nonsense, foisted on us “for our protection”, is the Data Protection Act. Example: talking on the phone to a UK government department this week I told the person on the phone at the start of the conversation that, after speaking to me, my wife had a query and I would pass the phone to her. During both conversations it must have become evident we were in the same room, that we have been married 42 years and that were exchanging comments to check information asked of both of us. My wife then asked a particular question which would have involved the person on the phone divulging information about me. This was 20 minutes into the call. She had to pass the phone to me so I could give permission for the question to be answered. Total b****y nonsense. Back to buses. The rear doors on the KSW, whilst no doubt a welcome addition for conductor and passengers, spoil the look of the vehicle. The width of the short bay and the jack knife doors are too similar making the rear of the lower deck look unbalanced compared to the rest of the well proportioned design.
Phil Blinkhorn
07/08/13 – 13:08
Well, this view has invited some interesting comments, has it not!!!!!! How a County Town can be other than in it’s ‘home’ County is beyond me. One of the early forms of Local Government Reorganisation – one of the rejected ones – was suggesting that Lancaster should leave Lancashire and go into Westmorland! County Town isn’t always the administrative centre of the County Council, of course – Appleby was the County town of Westmorland, but Kendal was the Admin centre. At least they are/were in the same County! Blackburn is another Cathedral town, but it isn’t a “City”. I’m not too sure about Arundel . . . Chelmsford is another place that has long been considered a City – the local football club even has that name – but it was ‘elevated’ last year as part of the Golden Jubilee.
Pete Davies
07/08/13 – 14:13
I like the way it says ‘This is a Driver Training Bus…..’ on the side, and on the front it shows ‘Training Vehicle’. It always rankled me when Yorkshire Rider boldly proclaimed our training buses to be Driver Training Units. Units ? They weren’t learning to drive a Unit – it was a bus for goodness sake ! They didn’t change their name to FirstUnit.
John Stringer
07/08/13 – 15:30
Don’t give Wirst Bus ideas, John. Arundel is different, Pete – it’s a Roman Catholic Cathedral and never in the same mix of cathedral/city arguments.
David Oldfield
07/08/13 – 15:30
Many of these comments remind me of my last years before retirement. For seventeen years I was a driver with one of the major supermarket chains, for the last seven of those I was a DSA registered HGV driving instructor/assessor, and as such I was regarded as management. All the instructors at the 20 odd depots used to say that there are two phrases that cover everything from incompetence to downright stupidity, they were “Company policy” and “Operational requirements”
Ronnie Hoye
07/08/13 – 17:24
The County Hall for Surrey is still in Kingston, though that town is now within a London Borough, having been annexed by the GLC in 1965. I think that this situation is unique, unless, of course, someone on the OBP knows different (and I bet that proves to be the case). It does seem remarkable that Surrey CC has been unable to find suitable premises for relocation in 48 years.
Roger Cox
08/08/13 – 07:27
It may be unique at county level, Roger, but certainly not at lower levels. The offices of North East Derbyshire District Council are within the Borough of Chesterfield, and when I lived in Newport in 1969 I was surprised to find the offices of Magor and St Mellons Rural(?) District Council there. In both these cases, however, the offices are/were geographically central to the strangely-shaped administrative area, despite being located outside it!
Peter Williamson
10/08/13 – 06:01
Two examples of ‘market-speak’ that irritate are ‘logistics’ and ‘solutions’. Haven’t the foggiest idea what either looks like, but there seem to be increasing numbers of trucks (logistics) and vans (solutions) carrying such items nationally. Presumably solutions are smaller or lighter than logistics. Whatever happened to the good old no nonsense word ‘haulage?’ As we know, in the bus and coach industry much heritage has been lost with the demise of such appendages as Traction, Automobile, Road Car, Motor Services, Omnibus etc. These titles of character and distinction have sadly been brushed aside in favour of the bland term ‘Travel’, or such corporate regional suffixes as ‘SouthEast’ and ‘The Shires’. Wonder how long it will be before a certain design and marketing consultancy will have us believe that bus operators are no longer bus operators, but actually ‘providers of local mass travel solutions’.
Brendan Smith
10/08/13 – 09:24
The word you need Brendan is “transit”. I’m sure Google used to use this on their travel directions, but it now says “Public Transport” presumably because people thought that was a route for white vans seeking logistics solutions. Logistics means we have GPS and know which layby you’re holed up in: solutions means we go very fast so the thing you forgot to send will still arrive.
Joe
10/08/13 – 18:33
In a similar vein, have you noticed that new roads are always named “Way” – never road, street, lane, avenue, drive, crescent or (a special Nottingham favourite this) Boulevard.
Stephen Ford
10/08/13 – 18:34
On the topic of logistics, the use of the word by transport companies is legitimate where you are dealing with certain types of haulage. Without getting too technical or digressing too far, logistics is the art or science (a bit of both really) of ensuring goods, equipment or personnel arrive where they are required, only when required and are fit to be used/take up their role on arrival. Originally a military concept, it has been applied to the shipment of critical items around the world using multi-modal transport, often through specialised hubs and can see an item in the course of its journey being transported by road air and water. There are specialists in areas from Formula One to oil rig equipment but the most well known true logistics companies are FedEx, DHL, UPS and TNT who, apart from transporting packages have worldwide contracts to move sensitive equipment and data for major corporations and governments in a way that ordinary post and parcel handling would not offer. Industry’s demand for continual production without the need to hold large stocks of components spawned the idea of “Just In Time Delivery” which created the need for much of the logistical planning that goes into haulage today. Even the delivery of greengrocery to your local supermarket from the point of origin in, say, Kenya or the Caribbean in a state where it is fresh, has a reasonable shelf life and can be consumed days after purchase, is far more complex today than just haulage from point A to point B.
Phil Blinkhorn
10/08/13 – 18:35
Once upon a time, when the universe was young, and a long lost language called English was spoken in the land, the term ‘logistics’ meant either a branch of mathematics, or the planned organisation of troops, armaments, supplies and transport for an advancing or retreating army. Transport, or as it is now seemingly forever to be known, ‘transportation’, is just one element in the complex package that constitutes logistics. The people that carry goods in vehicles from A to B are simply hauliers, whatever nonsense they choose to display on their lorries (though even these things are now to be called ‘trucks’). Taking up Brendan’s point, I think that the solution for mass travel must surely be the water on which a passenger carrying ferry or canal barge floats. In a world blighted by pretentious marketing piffle, the solution that we all need is a return to the language of Shakespeare and Doctor Johnson. I am not holding my breath.
Roger Cox
11/08/13 – 06:46
I always thought that TNT meant Tomorrow Not Today.
Paragon
12/08/13 – 19:23
Thanks Joe, I think you are right about transit – it flows much better than travel in the ‘strapline’ (now there’s another new word to conjure with!). Thank you too Phil for your comments as to the true meaning of logistics. As you state, the modern art of ‘just in time delivery’ is much more involved than traditional haulage, and there does appear to be a big difference between the two. However, the waters are muddied by the pretensions of some operators whose vehicles carry the ‘logistics’ title, when they should really be proudly displaying the word ‘haulage’ instead.
Brendan Smith
13/08/13 – 06:19
Brendan, you are correct about the pretensions of some hauliers. Strap line is hardly new. Originating in newspapers it describes a secondary headline or caption and Dickens, as a newspaper editor, certainly knew the term. It was adopted by the advertising industry in the early part of the 20th century.
Phil Blinkhorn
13/08/13 – 06:20
Phil, going back to your comment about the KSW’s platform doors, I think ECW may have been dabbling with improving the design at some point. Early KS/KSWs originally had the quarter bay ahead of the entrance panelled over, but on later models the quarter bay was glazed. In either case, with an open platform the design looked balanced as you say. However, with platform doors fitted and closed, if the bay was panelled, a ‘thick pillar’ effect resulted between the fourth bay and the first door glass. If the quarter bay was glazed, the result was the ‘three window’ effect you describe. The same thing affected the LD Lodekka when fitted with platform doors. However, both it must be admitted were still very handsome designs. In order to ensure perfect nearside balance on either model, I suppose the only answer would be to leave the platform doors open at all times!
Brendan Smith
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
16/08/13 – 14:35
A piece of totally useless trivia for you, Stephen, and nothing what so ever to do with the original subject. It would take far too long to list them all, but within historical boudaries of the City of London, you will find Squares and Alley’s, names ending in Lane – Side – Gate – Wall – Street Etc, and single words such as Barbican – Eastcheap – Poultry, but no ‘Roads’. However, with the boundary changes of 1994, part of Goswell Road in Islington became EC1 so technically it is now part part of the City, but it is not within The Square Mile.
Ronnie Hoye
16/08/13 – 18:31
Thanks Ronnie – I do totally useless trivia !
Stephen Ford
21/08/13 – 06:33
A London EC post code does not indicate that the place is in the City. Fifty odd years ago when I was at school there Goswell Road and nearby City Road had EC1 postal addresses. Incidentally the Tower of London has an EC3 post code but is not in the City.
Wilts & Dorset Motor Services 1952 Bristol KSW5G ECW L27/28R
HWV 294 is a Bristol KSW5G dating from 1952 [like the photographer] and has been fully restored by Roger Burdett internally, externally and mechanically. It will be at various rallies in 2014. It has a L27/28R ECW body and was new to Wilts and Dorset as their 365. If anyone has more information or dates as to it use between it’s withdrawal and now please do not hesitate to leave a comment. The restoration was completed in March 2014.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ken Jones
29/04/14 – 10:17
Odd how with the passage of time you learn to see things differently. As a young enthusiast 50-odd years ago, on the lookout for surviving prewar stuff and always drawn to fleets where scarcely any two vehicles were alike (the storeman’s nightmare) I used to think: “Oh, no! Not another Bristol! Can’t we have a bit of variety?” In my short spell at Thames Valley I came to realise that the KSW was one of the great classics of all time, which fully deserved its ubiquity, so many thanks to Roger Burdett for this fine restoration. Looking forward to a ride! Will she be at Warminster? Keep us posted, Roger!
Ian Thompson
29/04/14 – 13:25
I think I would agree, Ian. The KSW was a classic – but I preferred the less common highbridge version; Lincolnshire and United in particular. This was also the same body as Sheffield’s B & C fleet PD2s. I was ambivalent about the tin fronts but erred on the side of exposed radiators. A KSW against a Sheffield PD2? The exposed radiator KSW any time.
David Oldfield
30/04/14 – 07:28
It was meant to make it’s first public appearance at The Quorn Rally last Saturday. I was one of those on board when it left Roger’s place to pick up others at Birmingham International, and then onto the M42 where the front offside tyre went before you can say I like Bristols. We had to wait for a following BMMO S15 to come to the rescue and Roger had to wait with the bus for a recovery vehicle. He hopes to have everything sorted so that it appears at the Taunton Rally on May 11th.
Ken Jones
30/04/14 – 07:29
Thanks for pointing out the ECW-bodied PD2s to me, David. I was completely unaware of them! Very handsome machines. If only one had survived… Forgot in my previous comment to thank Ken for these fine shots—especially the interior one.
Ian Thompson
30/04/14 – 18:48
Two superb pictures of a gloriously restored classic vehicle – takes me back happily to 1951, when four such vehicles positively stunned us all with admiration when West Yorkshire RCC treated us to the allocation at “Lil’ old Ilkley depot.” 806 – 809, later becoming DBW 1 – 4, and returning briefly to ECW to be retrofitted with platform doors – long before “retrofitted” became an “in” word. Now Boris, why didn’t you order a few hundred of these eh ????????.
Chris Youhill
02/05/14 – 07:42
Roger has found a gash in the tyre, has sorted it and is back on track for it to appear in Somerset for the Taunton Rally
Hants & Dorset Motor Services 1951 Bristol KSW6B ECW L27/28R
KEL 728 is a Bristol KSW6B new to Hants & Dorset in 1951. The ECW body was of the L55R variety when new. After withdrawal from passenger duty in 1969, it became one of the driver training fleet, with various alterations including the fitting of a sliding door and the replacement of most seats by concrete blocks. This was to simulate ‘loaded’ condition. We see it still in Tilling green and cream but with NBC fleetname in Grosvenor Square during the lunch break one day in August 1975.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
24/05/16 – 07:05
Grosvenor Square where, Pete?
Chris Hebbron
24/05/16 – 09:01
Southampton! Shame cant see the registration of the coach behind. Wondered if it was H and D or Shamrock and Rambler.
David Rawsthorn
25/05/16 – 06:18
It was one of the ORU …G group, so H&D, but don’t ask me which one of the three!
Pete Davies
26/05/16 – 18:40
Living in Southampton as a schoolboy in the fifties, the Bristol engined Ks were familiar and friendly vehicles in the area. The KSW like 1285 was one of my favourite marques. The extra width, the style and finish of the interior trim had an edge (in my view) over other contemporary buses and maintained a brighter environment when compared to its successor, the Lodekka. This vehicle was the first of the lowbridge KSWs delivered to H & D and all fourteen were allocated for the bulk of their lives to Southampton or Fareham depots. In the final years most migrated to Bournemouth and Poole, where they still maintained an elegant presence in the ‘Pines Territory’. My final journey on this type was on 1294 in November 1970 on a service from Bournemouth to Wimborne. Happy days!
Peter Elliott
29/05/16 – 05:47
About 30 years ago a letter appeared in Buses Illustrated commiserating with the hapless drivers of Bristols and comparing their lot with that of those lucky folk who drove London buses. The writer suggested that you don’t so much drive a Bristol as wrestle with it and finish your shift in utter exhaustion. Well, he can never have driven a KSW, which has light, positive, bullet-straight steering, a light clutch, good progressive brakes, a gearbox less forgiving than some but still easy to get used to, a roomy cab with a good step and a firm handle to pull yourself up with, good visibility, reasonable level of engine noise, good stability… There must be something I’ve forgotten… As a teenage enthusiast I found the ubiquitous KSWs and LDs uninteresting but a short spell of driving for Thames Valley in 1968 taught me what superbly designed vehicles they were. What an indignity for KEL 728, having to carry concrete blocks around!
Ian Thompson
30/05/16 – 05:48
For my last 12 weeks RAF National Service (Jan-Mar 1959), I was posted to RAF Calshot, my mother living in Southsea. On Mondays, I’d take a trolleybus to Hilsea, a Southdown 45A which terminated at Fareham Bus Station, then the 77 H&D Bristol to Warsash service, then getting an air-sea rescue launch over Southampton Water to Calshot. The Bristol would have been in the yard all night and freezing cold, with frost inside the front windows needing to be scraped off! Arrival at our Calshot office necessitated laying the free-standing coke stove and getting it going before work started. It was noon before I’d really warmed up! The return journey on Fridays usually involved the Southdown 45 route which went all the way from Warsash to Southsea. So Fareham to Warsash was a shared route, with Southdown at its Westerly extremity at Warsash and Fareham being H&D’s Easterly extremity. Southdown usually put on PD2’s or Guy Arabs, but I seem to recall one Queen Mary, overkill for the route. But H&D had these KSW’s usually, which seemed quite civilised as I recall. It’s fair to say that these dozen trips on a Bristol bus constitute about a quarter of all rides I’ve ever taken on a Bristol in normal service!
Chris Hebbron
30/05/16 – 16:53
Fareham was not quite the easterly extremity of Hants & Dorset, Chris. During the three years I spent at Alverstoke (1949-52) my mother and I sometimes used to catch the Hants & Dorset service from Gosport (marginally farther east) to Lee-on-Solent or Tichfield and Southampton. The buses were Bristol K types back then, of course, probably K5Gs.
Roger Cox
30/05/16 – 16:54
As a very happy conductor and driver with Samuel Ledgard at Otley and Ilkley depots I regularly regretted that I would never drive a Bristol vehicle. However one morning I had to pinch myself as I reported to the garage to operate the 0807 duplicate from Otley to Leeds and back. Parked near the bus station with “Harrogate via Otley” on the destination blind was K6B KHY 746 (ex Bristol) – yes, it had suffered a front wheel puncture a few minutes earlier and had been replaced by one of our Otley vehicles. With fingers crossed I approached the output man for my bus to be told “You’ll have to take that 746 outside.” Well, what an utter delight the vehicle was in every way – the gears were like silk, the brakes smooth and superb, visibility great, and the Bristol AVW engine enabled it to ascend the two mile long A660 in fine style. When we got to Leeds the disgruntled and totally disinterested young conductor came to the cab and said “I don’t know what you’re getting excited about, its only a b***** bus.” So naturally I fully agree with everything that Ian Thompson says in favour of the model even though “mine” was slightly earlier and “thinner” – the pedigree was the same !!
Chris Youhill
31/05/16 – 06:24
Geography and popular opinions of places’ locations do contradict each other sometimes. Chris Hebbron comments on his trips to RAF Calshot. One might think that, being on the western side of Southampton Water, it is west of Southampton. Certainly, buses head westwards out of Southampton towards Totton, Marchwood, Hythe, Fawley and Calshot, but Calshot Castle is actually due south of the mouth of the Hamble, east of Southampton. Roger Cox mentions his time at Alverstoke which, although many of the present residents refuse to acknowledge it, is actually in Gosport and east of Fareham. A strange situation applies at Fareham, which used to have two signal boxes. ‘East box’, being nearer to Waterloo on the original line through Basingstoke and Winchester, was actually WEST of ‘West box’ which was further away from Waterloo. I have some American Railroad DVDs in my collection, with maps. The commentary mentions ‘compass west’ which is the actual direction of travel, and ‘timetable west’ which is the nominal direction. What fun!
Pete Davies
31/05/16 – 06:24
One summer in the mid to late ‘sixties I remember my Dad, a West Yorkshire driver, saying that he had performed a duplicate on the 84 Harrogate-York-Scarborough service. His trusty steed was an ‘SBW’ (Bristol LWL6B/ECW B39R) and I’d assumed he would have been disappointed at the prospect of having to drive such an ‘old’ bus, heading up towards it’s retirement, over such a distance. (What shameful thoughts Brendan, even for a early teenager!). Well Dad said much the same as Ian and Chris (Y) have done and relished the experience. I recall him saying how light the steering and clutch were, and that the gearbox combined with the Bristol AVW engine worked a treat. All in all an enjoyable day out by the sound of it. Just wish I’d been along for the ride.
Brendan Smith
31/05/16 – 09:03
Brendan – I can well appreciate your Dad’s delight with the SBW. Although as an Ilkley depot conductor I never drove one I consider the SBWs to be the very finest examples of the wonderful ECW postwar “L” variants. Not only were they supremely handsome and “tidy”, but within there could never have been anything finer – wide gangways, useful luggage racks, excellent stairs and sliding doors, good visibility, and easy passenger flow even with standing customers – that barmy over the top trendy term means passengers, customers patronise shops !! At Ilkley we had EB2/3 (31 seat luxury), SGL 14 (slim) and SBW 17/26/33.
Chris Youhill
01/06/16 – 06:53
Agreed Chris Y! A colleague used to define the difference this way (in connection with the railway industry): Passengers travel; Customers merely pay.
Stephen Ford
02/06/16 – 06:50
Chris and Stephen, bus drivers may be told by their employers to see passengers as ‘customers’ nowadays in order to promote real ‘customer service’. However, how many times do we see these same ‘customers’ treated with disdain, not by the drivers, but by the employers who cover the windows with Contravision, or vinyl promotional stickers and overlays, so that the allegedly all-important ‘customers’ cannot see out? ‘First still seems to be Worst’ in this regard, but sadly there are others out there. Thomas Tilling will be turning in his grave – if not already spinning like a starter motor.
Brendan Smith
04/06/16 – 06:46
Absolutely spot on Brendan. As is widely known, I ‘m in total despair these days at all the marketing, route branding, swooping “playschool” liveries etc – 99% plus of which goes right over the heads of the travelling public or simply understandably confuses them, and costs unimaginable amounts of money When will operators realise that all the Public want is a clean smart bus at the right time at a sensible fare. Now, where did I put that tin helmet?? I’m sure I got it back from refurbishment not long ago !!
Chris Youhill
04/06/16 – 06:47
Thx, Roger, for making me aware of back-door H&D route to Gosport. I confess that on the few times I used to go over to Gosport, I never saw saw an H&D bus/bus stop to raise my curiosity!
Chris Hebbron
05/06/16 – 07:10
Hants & Dorset did have a presence in Gosport, though. On the occasions when I travelled across the water (or took the long way round via Fareham), there was often an H&D Bristol K lurking against a wall behind the Provincial line up at the bus stands. I don’t recall if it displayed any route number or destination, but my impression at the time was that it was parked up for later use. As the Provincial fleet had my stronger interest, I didn’t take so much notice of it! I don’t know whether when it came to service, it drew up on one of the Provincial stands, or whether it went somewhere else to begin it’s journey.
Michael Hampton
07/06/16 – 07:01
H&D ran several services to Gosport. The 70 and 93 ran from Southampton, each one hourly. The 70 was converted to OPO and became limited stop as X70 around the time the last REs (XLJ725/6K) were delivered. As far as I recall there were other local services, including an indirect service from Fareham.
Nigel Frampton
08/06/16 – 06:06
The construction for an embryonic new resort (intended to rival Bournemouth) given the supposedly prestigious name of Lee-on-the-Solent began in 1885 and proceeded apace. A pier was completed in 1888 and a light railway line (maximum permitted speed – 25 mph) was built in 1894 to connect with the Gosport/Stokes Bay main line at Fort Brockhurst on the western fringe of Gosport. In 1910 Provincial Tramways began operating connecting services with its tram operations from Bury Cross and Brockhurst into Lee, but these stopped during the First World War. (The railway services to Stokes Bay and the Isle of Wight also ceased in 1915, never to resume). The overambitious original scheme for Lee-on-the-Solent was never realised and public transport revenues on bus and rail services were poor. Provincial lost interest in Lee as a traffic objective and the railway, too, entered a period of terminal decline. It was Hants & Dorset who stepped in with viable bus links through Lee to Gosport and Southampton, and I understand that these still exist, though the vehicles when I last travelled on the route were attired in the absurd Barbie apparel.
Roger Cox
09/06/16 – 16:56
Hants & Dorset had an outstation at Gosport – in the early post-war period at Little Beach Road, and from the mid 1950s until early 1970s in Harbour Road (just off the A32 Mumby Road, north of the High Street), where there was a small waiting room as well as parking space. There were ‘local’ services to Hill Head, Lee-on-Solent, Heathfield and HMS Aerial, together with Gosport to Fareham via Rowner (79) and 3 routes from Gosport to Southampton 70 and 93 (both via Lee-on-Solent and Bursledon) and 76 (via Fareham and Botley). Hants and Doret had acquired the operations of independent, Tutt, in 1924 to which were others were – which formed the basis of the H&D services in the Gosport area.
Peter Delaney
18/06/16 – 06:08
Here is a picture of another KSW6B of similar vintage to KEL 728, but operated by the neighbouring company of Thames Valley. GJB 275, fleet no. 637, was also a 1951 vehicle, but differed in being equipped with a “coach” CL27/26RD body with platform doors. Thames Valley had nine of these buses for the Reading-London service “B”, though, because the route was covered by Green Line 704 and 705 between London and Slough, pick up and set down restrictions applied over that section. All the early production KSWs had either the Gardner 5LW or the alternative Bristol AVW of 8.1 litres supposedly developing the magic figure of 100 bhp that was often optimistically claimed by manufacturers in the early post war period – Leyland, Crossley and Daimler were others, together with Dennis, though the Guildford claim was accurate. The AVW was a basically sound dry liner engine manufactured also in horizontal form, unlike the troublesome wet liner BVW 8.9 litre design that succeeded it. The KSW6G did not become available until 1952 with the “K” version of the 6LW yielding a genuine 112 bhp. Were there initially some behind the scenes pressures on Tilling Group companies to accept the Bristol six cylinder engine to reduce production costs and free the manufacturer to some extent from the constraints of Gardner supplies? The Thames Valley “coach” KSWs ran on the “B” service for many years, latterly as relief vehicles, and GJB 275 is pictured in Victoria Coach Station on such duties in the summer of 1960. One wonders how a lowbridge bus of this type would be received by the “discerning customers” on such a lengthy route today, though I, for one, would jump at the opportunity.
Roger Cox
21/12/16 – 06:32
I remember taking a bus similar to this model from Romsey to Southampton on Route number 63. In the late 1960s, all the buses that ran to and from Romsey used to terminate or start their routes actually from Romsey Town Centre, this was before the Romsey bus station was even built, the sight formally having been occupied by the old Jam factory. I can remember that there were several routes operated by Hants and Dorset, and one of these was shared with Wilts and Dorset. Whilst single decker’s ran the routs 60 Braishfield to Southampton ( via Romsey, Ower, Totton, Millbrook. ) Route 66 Romsey to Winchester and then back and then ran Romsey to Salisbury via West Wellow, Shootash. This service was the shared route as you either got a Hants & Dorset or Wilts & Dorset bus in either direction. The 65 went to Eastleigh via North Badesley, and the original Castle Lane. The 65 was run by both single and double deck vehicles. The number 61, 62, 63 all ran Romsey to Southampton. One via Upton Crescent Rownhams and Nursling, Shirley and Southampton. 62 Romsey to North Baddesley Rownhams Lane, Horns Inn Nursling, Shirley, Southampton and the 63 Romsey North Baddesley, Chilworth, Inner Avenue, thence into Southampton. The 64 route ran Shootash and also served a number of the local villages, this was always a single deck service. Hants and Dorset and Wilts and Dorset drivers were some real characters, very friendly and helpful. I remember two particular drivers who did long service on some of these routes. Geoff Whitfield being one of these people. There was also a older chap called Stan. Didn’t ever know his last name, and it wasn’t Butler! but he was a character that made travelling on these routes a pleasure, and a lot of fun. Pity we don’t have these routes now.
Western National Omnibus Co Ltd 1950 Bristol KS5G ECW L27/28R
In 2009 preserved Western National LTA 813 visited the Plymouth Rally travelling under it’s own power there and back from it’s base in Coventry. One of the people travelling back with it was Ken Jones originally from Taunton in Somerset. He managed a photographic stop in the rain at The Parade in Taunton recreating a scene for the 274 service to Roman Road which he used to catch in his youth.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ken Jones
07/02/12 – 06:51
A superb photograph of what a good British bus should look like! Having said that being brought up in Municipal Lancashire, BTC group buses and Bristol/ECW products were a bit of an alien concept to me as a youngster. They were only seen when holiday trips were made to far flung places like North Wales (Crosville) and Whitby (United) for example. Looking back now however I realise what fine vehicles the BTC had and what classy liveries they used, even if they were standardised on two colours (with odd exceptions). I think of the two standard colours I preferred the red. In the 1950’s they also sported very clear and practical destination displays. It’s a great pity they were not always used correctly and as time progressed were reduced by painting out or taping over. Speaking of destination displays, many of the BTC companies showed the fleetname in the destination display. On an outing by coach to Chester Zoo as a boy, I remember seeing lots of vehicles showing ‘Crosville’ on the front and rear destination display. In my innocence I thought this was a place and with the number of buses going there, a pretty big place as well. I never did find it on any map!
Philip Halstead
07/02/12 – 10:58
I think that destination blinds could easily warrant a subject of their own! Two from opposite ends of the country were ‘WORLD’S END’ on Southdown buses around Petersfield. and Glasgow trams sporting the mysterious ‘NORMAL SCHOOL’, the answer to which has always eluded me!
Chris Hebbron
07/02/12 – 15:11
Not to mention Booth and Fisher going “Halfway” (current terminus of the Supertram) or Sheffield Corporation Trams “Intake” – not a suspicious breathing activity!
David Oldfield
07/02/12 – 15:12
Destinations:- a few others that come to mind. “LOOSE” in Maidstone, “BEEHIVE” in Halifax and, uniquely in my experience, “NR. WILLESDEN JUNCTION” on the 630 trolleybus in London. I have never since seen a bus destination blind displaying a point other than the true terminus, but I am sure that our experts will come up with another.
Roger Cox
07/02/12 – 16:34
…and of course there’s the Tracky bus to (or via) JUMP!
Joe
08/02/12 – 06:10
Philip conveys my feelings exactly about what a bus should look like. I became aware of the new Bristol KS6Bs 810 to 813 delivered to West Yorkshire in 1950 when only 9 years old. This was the time when my interest in buses developed and when I see a lovely photo of a Bristol KS, I get flashbacks to my first sighting of a West Yorkshire one in Bradford. The Bristol KS/ECW was a classical design of bus and hopefully I can find one in my photo collection for a future posting.
Richard Fieldhouse
08/02/12 – 06:12
Other destinations that spring to mind are Spittal Tongs and Two Ball Lonan both Newcastle, Clock Face in ST Helens, Bleachworks in Wigan, Load a Mischief in Accrington, Boggart Hill Drive in Leeds who also went to Intake as did Doncaster. Bristol went to Fishponds and Hotwells while Manchester ran to Southern Cemetery. North of the Border Edinburgh ran to Joppa while Glasgow served Nitshill. West Riding used to serve Bottomboat while Pennine still serve Giggleswick
Chris Hough
08/02/12 – 09:08
Interesting comments about both odd destinations and the attractiveness of the Bristol Ks with ECW bodies. Can’t add to the destination discussion, (Loose was served by Maidsone Corporation and not M&D, so we confined our amusement to corny remarks about the Loose Womens’ Institute), and I do remember a lad at M&D causing an upset by producing a load of traffic notices referring to ‘Five Aok Green’. Richard and Phillip are absolutely correct, in my view, in their opinion of what a fine example the Bristol K/ECW combination was of excellent design that proved itself so well in service. I had exactly the same reaction as Richard when York-West Yorkshire took delivery of their first K6Bs, (highbridge, of course). Tilling/Bristol/ECW give the lie to the currently fashionable nonsense that state-owned commercial concerns can’t ever be successful or compete effectively with private enterprise.
Roy Burke
08/02/12 – 11:30
I preferred the KSW6B with highbridge body (United) or similarly clad KSW6G (Lincolnshire and Midland General group). …..an elegant and balanced design.
David Oldfield
PS: How many of you thought LMS was a railway station in Manchester?
08/02/12 – 13:42
I always thought the lowbridge KSW was the least attractive of the K/ECW combinations (though by no means ugly). As David says, the additional height on the highbridge version gave it balance. Personally I thought the narrower KS (and K) looked well in lowbridge format. In always associate them with Summer holidays in Devon and West Cornwall, where narrow roads made their 7 foot 6 width useful well into the Lodekka era. LMS? Nice one David. The giveaway was that all four (five if you include Mayfield) mainline railway stations in Manchester were LMS (though LNER managed to have a bit of London Road)!
Stephen Ford
08/02/12 – 13:43
Speaking of destinations, from Newcastle you can go by bus to New York – Washington – Quebec – Toronto and Philadelphia
Ronnie Hoye
08/02/12 – 16:30
Roger mentioned Halifax buses going to ‘Beehive’. They also went to ‘Cunning Corner’, whilst Wigan’s ran to ‘Dangerous Corner’. Bradford served ‘Idle’, and Huddersfield’s ran to a ‘Hard End’. No further comment on that one.
John Stringer
Careful everybody, the better half is a ‘Cunning Corner’ lass.
I’m surprised ‘Wetwang’ as not been mentioned yet.
Peter
08/02/12 – 16:37
I have to agree that this is a superb bus picture, and it brings back to me those happy days of working for Eastern Counties at Hills Road Depot in Cambridge, when I first started bus driving in 1970. At that time they had several ageing K5G’s with Gardiner engines–so easy to drive. The gears would fall in once you’d got the hang of it. I don’t give all these modern buses a second look, as they seem to be without any character. I progressed to London Transport at New Cross Gge onto RT’s which took more skill, especially changing down for sharp corners. What a brilliant website this is…it makes me wish I could do it all again.
Norman Long…Retired
08/02/12 – 17:36
Lincolnshire Road Car also did New York, as well as Jerusalem, and the quaintly named Drinsey Nook.
Stephen Ford
08/02/12 – 17:38
Is that Norman Long (retired) or Norman (long retired)? Peter, you’ve just mentioned Wetwang – actually a very nice village in the Wolds. …..but what about the late Mayor of Wetwang? As Stephen says, the lowbridge were not ugly – I can never remember ECW doing ugly. …..and can anyone tell why I can visit Washington and Ashington in West Sussex?
David Oldfield
08/02/12 – 17:39
How wonderfully correct are Richard and Roy when remembering the introduction of the KS series. I share that memory, and can still feel the excitement they caused, as they were so modern looking with their well radiused windows, and “unfussy” squarish outline….so unlike any other marque. Ours (WY) were KS6Bs of course, and I well remember the whole West Yorkshire Information Service fraternity being equally impressed, and coining the phrase “window specials”. It all goes to show what a quality outfit was the whole BTC enterprise. Unlike other nationalised organisations, it seemed to embody total efficiency, which must have been a carry over from its original Tilling parentage. These preserved ECW buses, and I have seen many over recent years, still exude that feeling of solid quality which they had when new!
John Whitaker
09/02/12 – 05:49
Morecambe and Heysham went to Battery, Bury went to Jericho, Manchester went to Exchange (sometimes via FOG!)
Peter Williamson
09/02/12 – 05:50
…..but there’s one I don’t recollect ever seeing on a bus destination display – Normandy. [In Surrey, between Guildford and Aldershot.]
David Oldfield
09/02/12 – 05:52
ECW quality – as a little lad I always had to sit down hard about three times before I was satisfied that I had got my money’s worth out of the satisfying “wheesh” that you got from standard ECW seats with the standard green and red criss-cross pattern moquette.
Stephen Ford
09/02/12 – 05:53
To my mind just about everything ECW produced looked just right – until the ‘sliced-off-to-length-on-a-conveyor-belt’ RE bus, and the early LH spoilt their reputation somewhat. They always managed to achieve the perfect balance of understated elegance and practicality. I also particularly liked the appearance of the lowbridge KS (in spite of its awkwardness from a passenger’s and conductor’s point of view), but it would have to have a Bristol engine for me. I know what Stephen means though about the lowbridge KSW – its extra width emphasised its squatness. Not bad though. One of my ECW favourites was always the LS coach. Just look at old photos depicting these on coach parks in their dignified, well maintained BTC liveries, parked alongside all the other 1950’s monstrosities and ‘chromeblazers’. (I speak purely from a design point of view, not their driveability, which may well have been a little different).
John Stringer
09/02/12 – 14:09
Couldn’t agree more about the Bristol engine, John, but even the RE bus body could look good in the right livery. [I’m thinking of the East Midland DP versions in pre NBC cream with maroon stripes.] I have nothing but respect for (especially the 6 cylinder) Gardner engines – in just about all applications; but I still prefer the Bristol powered (and indeed the Leyland powered) Bristols on offer at different times in the company’s history.
David Oldfield
09/02/12 – 14:10
You raise a very interesting point, John S, when you say ‘it would have to have a Bristol engine for me’. My own experience of Bristols is really limited to the comparison between the Bristol engine and the 5LW, and I’m sure everyone would agree with your conclusion in that comparison. On the other hand, I later developed a great admiration for the 6LW in Guy chassis, (and the 6LX too, but that really post dated the K series Bristols). I’d be grateful for the views of other correspondents with experience of both the Bristol engine and the 6LW in Bristol Ks.
Roy Burke
11/02/12 – 07:28
I agree with John Stringer about ECW LS coaches looking dignified. I think my top three coaches for being eye catching without being flash would be, ECW LS in United green and cream, the centre entrance Burlingham Seagull in Yelloway livery, and the Weymann Fanfare in a photo finish between BET cream and maroon and Southdown green
Ronnie Hoye
11/02/12 – 07:28
On the subject of destination blinds, Bradford C T ran buses to Tong Cemetery and also to Shelf. (Their operating territory also included Idle, famed for its Idle Working Men’s Club). Sandy Lane could also be seen on the front of a BCT bus – not sure who she was, but may have been related to Lucy Hall seen on some of West Yorkshire’s Bradford-based vehicles. Her distant cousin Hazel Grove, could be seen over in Stockport. (West Yorkshire and BCT could also take you to Dick Hudson’s if you so wished). East Yorkshire had the quaintly-named North Cave, and West Riding had buses stating “Hall Green”, which pre-NBC, most of them were, give or take the cream band…..
Brendan Smith
11/02/12 – 09:23
Ronnie, I would tend to agree with you on all three counts – but what about Sheffield’s cream and blue Fanfares?
David Oldfield
11/02/12 – 11:47
To add to Roys’ comments, I would like to contribute my own experience of the Bristol KS. I have always regarded the KSW6G as the “cream” of the marque. The Gardner 6LW was slightly larger in engine capacity at 8.4 litres compared to the Bristol AVW engine at 8.1 litres so consequently was more responsive and in my view gave a better ride. I would like to know what drivers liked with the Bristol KSW. I was fortunate enough to ride on both West Yorkshire KSW6Gs and KSW6Bs on a regular basis as these were rostered as School Specials each weekday morning. These were halcyon days in 1954 which I treasure and I was always thrilled when KSW6G 855 or 856 appeared. However KSW6Bs 853 and 854 were also good, as all the LWR registered buses (845 to 864) had rear platform doors, so I felt superior on my school special to other Bristol KSW6Bs on normal services with open platforms. Perhaps this was a case of bus snobbery but perhaps excused when you are young.
Richard Fieldhouse
11/02/12 – 15:12
David, you’re right about Sheffields livery being smart, but I think the destination blinds on the Fanfares made then look too much like a bus and just took the edge off them. As to the debate about Bristol engines, I can’t comment on that as Northern Group being a BET company we didn’t have any, however, we did have quite a lot of Guy’s with the Gardner 5LW, and later we had Daimler Fleetlines with the 6LX, and both were virtually indestructible. As a foot note, we had both, and for my money the Fleetline was a far superior vehicle to the Atlantean, one bad thing with the Gardner, or to be more accurate, the garage staff, was that they would check the oil level when the bus came back to the garage at the end of it’s shift and the engine was still hot, the less intelligent ones would then put about a gallon of oil in and complain about the amount of oil that Gardners used, the more experienced garage hands would check the level when the engine was cold and the oil had had time to settle
Ronnie Hoye
11/02/12 – 15:12
As one who has driven a preserved KSW5G (with platform doors) for nearly thirty years I would say that the 5LW is not really powerful enough for the vehicle. Although it will climb a mountain it just takes so long to do it. The problem is made worse by the maximum revs being governed so tightly. This means that on ascending a hill you cannot change from fourth to third until the speed drops to 20mph by which time too much momentum has been lost. The other aspect of this is that I’m never sure what to do at a roundabout, do I chug round at 21mph in fourth or use maximum revs in third at 22mph ? I suppose that there weren’t many roundabouts in existence when it was designed. One very positive thing about the KSW is the lack of corrosion on the chassis or the alloy frame of the ECW body after almost 59 years on the road. Having seen the amount of rebuilding that some enthusiasts have had to do on their vehicles, we are very grateful for that.
Nigel Turner
11/02/12 – 16:05
Point taken, Ronnie, and I would agree the Fleetline was superior to the PDR1 Atlantean – but the AN68 was a different story.
David Oldfield
11/02/12 – 17:17
Todmorden buses ran (and still run) to Portsmouth, a 15 minute journey, although not many terminate there now. I’ve read about Manchester buses showing “fog on route” and wondered what it was for – was it to warn drivers going the other way?
Geoff Kerr
12/02/12 – 07:13
I worked as a Schedules Clerk for SELNEC Central at Frederick Road for an all too brief spell in the early 1970’s. I seem to recall being told that fog around the docks area could be really severe and wreak havoc with timekeeping, and that ‘FOG’ (on the via blinds of ex-Manchester buses) was just to indicate to would be passengers the reason for late running.
John Stringer
12/02/12 – 07:22
Gentlemen..having lived in Bristol and for many years close to the Bristol works, I grew up thinking all buses were as good as “ours” and the ECW bodies were normal. In those days my travels to other areas were mainly, Dawlish and Devon General, South Wales and so Rhondda, Newport, Red & White and up to London for the joys of London Transport. Whilst I loved seeing something different, even then I appreciated the outstanding construction of the KSW and later LD/Lodekka plus all the other different Bristol variants. I clearly remember the joy of finding out when a brand new bus was due out and recall riding on KSW’s fresh from the works. Now, some 54 years later, on Bristol Bus Running Day held each August, I can actually stand at the same bus stop (now 100 yards further up the road due to “improvements”) and catch one of the batch of KSW’s that I caught each night to come home from school. Whether any of the preserved vehicles are one of those I caught on the No.1 Cribbs Causeway route I do not know but they are identical and so I can recreate that exact journey on a KSW/ECW that looks, feels and sounds just like those years ago.
Richard Leaman
12/02/12 – 11:00
Thank you, gentlemen – especially Richard F, Ronnie and Nigel – for your illuminating comments. Fascinating. West Yorkshire didn’t have many 6LW-engined Bristol Ks, (ten, I think?), and I never really came across them in York. I totally understand Nigel’s opinion of the 5LW; great engine, quite indestructible, utterly dependable, but, by the 1950’s its limitations in powering heavier vehicles – not just Bristols, of course – was making it a retrograde choice, even though a few BET companies persisted with it. Ronnie’s and David’s comments comparing the Fleetline with early Atlanteans struck a note with me, too. My views exactly! In his posting of a PMT PDR1, Michael Crofts makes the point that the Atlantean easily out-performed the Fleetline. True, but from a management point of view, early Atlanteans could have worryingly high running costs. Nigel’s ‘dilemma’ about gear choice for roundabouts in the KSW5G reminded me of one particular instance of that at Chatham. In a Guy Arab, you knew that you had to slow to 20 mph at the top of Chatham Hill in order to be able to select 3rd gear; bad drivers could, however, abuse the Atlantean pneumo-cyclic gearbox by changing at higher speeds part way down. I have seen a hole in a cylinder block that I could put my fist in, caused by this practice. Then there was the issue of centrifugal clutches requiring conversion, fuel and oil consumption, and maintenance costs generally. No wonder to me that M&D changed to Fleetlines.
May I venture another view on Bristol/ECW? In my youth, I was not a regular user of ex Tilling companies like West Yorkshire. When I did have contact with them, they seemed to be another version of British Railways: boring conformity in liveries and bus styles- red or green with no attempt at modern graphics in fleet names. The Lodekka seemed to be an old rather quirky design, again with a depressing uniformity wherever you went: drivers looked uncomfortable in that “half-decker” cab and they could sound like tractors (when we did live on a WY bus route eventually, the electrics played havoc with our TV/Radio reception). Compare this with Sheffield- say- dirt-defying livery, modern fleet name, early introduction of “new generation” buses & variety- even a few Bristols. Give me a Roe-bodied Daimler CVG6 anytime!
Joe
14/02/12 – 07:36
I think you’re being a bit harsh, Joe, but surely you mean a Roe bodied AEC – especially in Sheffield!!!???
David Oldfield
18/02/12 – 07:08
Bristols are definitely the best buses – but I’m glad my first contribution has generated so much discussion on so many points.
Ken Jones
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
23/02/12 – 07:16
To add to the destination screen saga Southdown showed High and Over on the 126 Eastbourne to Seaford route. My abiding memory of ECW bodies is of M&D’s Bristol L6A’s they seemed to have such deep plush upholstery, extremely comfortable. I made frequent journeys on the 35 route which ran from Ore (another odd destination) to Cooden Beach which had two low bridges. The LS coach was an elegant design especially those with curved glass in the front corners, the bus bodies were also attractive much more so in both cases than the later MW’s. Unfortunately my driving experience was limited to the later and lesser types VR, RE, LH the RE being the best of those. Being born and bred in Sussex guess whose colours I prefer on the Weymann Fanfare.
Southern Vectis Omnibus Company 1951 Bristol KS5G ECW L27/28R
New to Southern Vectis in 1951 with an Isle of Wight registration a Bristol KS5G with an ECW lowbridge body and was withdrawn by them in 1967. Sold on to dealer W Norths (PV) Limited, Sherburn-in-Elmet in May 1967 it then went to Jameson of Sunderland the following month. It was later purchased by Carneys Coaches of Sunderland in October 1967 and was used on shipyard contracts transporting workers between Wearside and Teesside, it was also used to take local Scout groups on holidays. It remained in its original Southern Vectis livery a dark shade of Green with a white band all through its working life. In November 1968 Carneys disposed of it to a dealer, unfortunately from that point on I have no further history.
United Automobile Services 1954 Bristol KSW6B ECW H32/28R
In this shot you can certainly see the difference in height between this highbridge KS and the height of the Lodekka both of which had the centre isle seating plan. The KS series succeeded the K series in 1950 when body length was increased from 26ft to 27ft, the extra foot was split equally between the bonnet length and the saloon. The reason for the extra 6in on the bonnet length was so the Gardner 6LW 8.4 litre diesel engine could be fitted without any modification being needed which was the case with the K series. Main production did not last very long as in 1953 the Lodekka went into production but I have read that the last KS was actually delivered in 1957. The “W” in the coding stood for wide meaning the body width was 8ft instead of 7ft 6in, there seems to be two schools of thought what the “S” stood for: (a) “Short” as if Bristol knew that a longer chassis would be allowed a few years later and “L” would be used to differentiate. (b) “Standard” being that the bonnet was of a standard length to allow installation of all engine variants. There is also the belief that all of the KS series were bodied by ECW (Eastern Coach Works).
I had been under the impression, that the “S” stood for “stretched” to 27′ Source: “The Pocket Encyclopaedia of Buses & Trolleybuses since 1945”, London, Blandford Press, 1968 p.115
David Cape
I was on a KSW at a rally today and overheard an apparently knowledgeable chap saying that the S indicated short, as opposed to KL which was going to be a 30-foot export model until Bristol’s government lords and masters prevented them from building for export at all. However, the apparently knowledgeable chap thought we were on a KS, not a KSW, so the usual pinch of salt applies.
Peter Williamson
The Bristol KS was introduced following an increase in permitted length for double deckers from 26ft to 27ft in mid-1950. Later that year, the maximum permitted width for all buses was increased from 7ft-6ins to 8ft. and Bristol responded with the KSW. (The ‘S’ apparently stood for ‘Standard’ or ‘Short’ length chassis, with the ‘W’ predictably denoting ‘Wide’). At that time the bus industry had hoped for an increase in length to 30ft for all buses, but in the event this was limited to single deckers. Bristol had envisaged extending the K type to 30ft long (KL/KLW) but this did not materialise as a result. When legislation did allow for 30ft double deckers in 1956, the Lodekka was in its ascendancy and so no KL/KLWs were built. ECW designed a 4-bay body for the KS-series and these could also be identified by the stepped panel below the windscreen. Although ECW bodied most of the KS-series chassis, Rotherham Corporation received six KS6Bs in 1950, fitted with East Lancashire bodies built in Bridlington. Rotherham was the only operator outside the Tilling Group to operate the KS as far as I am aware – these being ordered before the cut-off point following nationalisation of Bristol and ECW. Bristol/ECW were not allowed to supply vehicles to concerns outside the British Transport Commission, following nationalisation by the Labour government in 1948. The ban was to appease the Conservative opposition and private sector manufacturers, and to prevent what they claimed would be unfair competition. (A clause was included to this effect in the 1947 Transport Act as a result). Restrictions on ECW’s output were also imposed, even within the BTC empire itself. Had this not been the case maybe ECW would have bodied some of London’s RTs. The last KS (a KS6G) was delivered to Brighton, Hove and District in 1957, and the last KSW (a KSW6G) was delivered to Bristol Omnibus Company the same year.
Brendan Smith
Some 7ft 6in KS chassis received 8ft wide KSW bodies. Eastern Counties had quite a few, and a former ECOC driver reckoned in conversation that they needed to be driven rather gently when heavily laden, as they tended to lean alarmingly on bends.
Stephen Ford
Fascinating stuff indeed Brendan and I seem to recall that, nearer home, West Yorkshire had a few L and K type chassis with 8ft wide bodies. In my view this is a very dubious practice especially with lowbridge double deckers which are prone to “nearside leaning” at the best of times.
Chris Youhill
I tend to agree with you Chris. Fitting bodies six inches wider than originally intended for the chassis does not sound unreasonable in theory. However, in practice as you say it would lead to increased body roll when cornering. You’re comment about “nearside leaning” with lowbridge buses was interesting, and something I’d not previously given much thought to. To the uninitiated it must have been quite entertaining going around a tight right-hander at times, and things would no doubt liven up even more as the leaf springs became tired with age!
Brendan Smith
The last ‘K’ type Chassis built was indeed delivered in 1957. It was actually a ‘KS6G’ supplied to the ‘Brighton Hove & District Omnibus Company’ fleet number 500 and registered ‘MPM 500’. The reason for the reversion to 7’6″ Bodies was for two way operation in the narrow St. James’s Street in the heart of Kemptown, Brighton. St. James’s Street is nowadays one-way (eastbound). BH & D was one of the last former Tilling companies to take the ‘Lodekka’ which it did so in 1959, taking eight ‘LDS6B’ the fore-runner of the ‘FS’ Chassis with the recently introduced Bristol BVW Engine.
John
12/04/14 – 08:12
1 National Travel, Manchester United Driver from Scarborough who had purchased/preserved a 1930’s (?) Bristol half cab which he wanted to be transported in at his funeral! Memory is a bit vague as to whether the bus was rebodied etc. but I think it was a JOG type Bristol. Anyone got any ideas?
The United driver that Pete Bradshaw is thinking of was Charlie Bullock who owned a 1940 K5G, FHN 923, which have been converted to a recovery truck. His final journey to Scarborough crematorium in August 2012 at the age of 97 was indeed made on that vehicle.
Photograph from The late Robert F Mack collection.
Samuel Ledgard 1945 Bristol K6A ECW L27/26R
As featured in “An Arresting Experience” by Chris Youhill on the “articles” page here we have the vehicle in question. This vehicle was ex-United Automobile Services fleet number BAL 8 new to them in 1945 acquired by Samuel Ledgard in 1959 and served a further six years before being withdrawn from service in 1965. The Bristol K series was first produced in 1937 and had the high bonnet line as in the shot above until 1946, when the more familiar lower bonnet line was introduced as in the shot to the right. The above vehicle was one of 251 built after the recommencement of production in 1944 and were the wartime W1 and W2 series all of which had the AEC 7·7 litre six cylinder diesel engine hence the K6A code. As from 1946 the K series was also available with the Gardner 5LW and Bristols first diesel engine the AVW which was a 8·1 litre six cylinder unit. I am not sure what AVW and its successor the BVW stood for, I could guess that the V stood for vertical, if you know please leave a comment. The K series carried on in production until 1950 with over 3000 being built until the one foot longer KS version was introduced.
Photograph contributed by Chris Youhill
Am I right in believing that the difference in bonnet height is the post war “invention” of dropped front axles- and who thought of it first?
Joe
Sorry Joe but, as far as I can glean from publications on the Bristol “K” series, there is no difference at all in the front axles of the low and high radiator “K”s. Dropped front axles were virtually standard on all buses long before WW2. As you say, the apparent dramatic lowering of the radiators and bonnets would suggest some major structural redesign but seemingly not so – the improved appearance must have been achieved by cleverly reducing the clearance above the engine and by a pleasing new radiator design and mountings.
Chris Youhill
As an AEC man, it always struck me that the perfect bonnet line, as aspired to and achieved by London Transport in the RT, was only achieved in the provinces on the post-war Bristols and Guy Arabs.
David Oldfield
And Crossleys, surely?
Peter Williamson
As I signed off the last comment, a Manchester Crossley popped up on a picture and I thought……..and Crossleys!
David Oldfield
There cannot have been any structural difference in the “high” and “low” radiator K chassis, since after the war, many pre-war and wartime utility Bristols were rebodied,and the exercise frequently involved fitting the low radiator to modernize their appearance. Preserved West Yorkshire KDG 26 is a case in point.
David Jones
The ‘low’ radiator is a bit of a trick. The bottom of the working bit of the low radiator is no lower than the high version. If you examine one you will find that the bottom 4 or 5 inches of the low radiator is just decorative. I think I’m right in saying the higher top of the ‘high’ radiator is simply a result of the fact that petrol engines were a lot taller than diesels. When diesels replaced petrol from mid-1930’s there was a lot of fresh air under the bonnet. Hence the line of the bonnet was lowered and with it the top of the radiator.
Bristol’s parts code. The last letter refers to what it is – thus ‘W’ is an engine. The first engine would have been an ‘AW’. In the early 1930’s the ‘JW’ and ‘NW’ were respectively 6-cyl and 4-cyl petrol engines. Once they got to ‘ZW’ then they started again with ‘AAW’ an awful lot of the codes must have been either minor variants or omitted or design studies which were never built. I have no idea how they got as far as ‘AVW’ but that is how the code was arrived at.
Peter Cook
Bristol AVW. the “V” stands for Vertical, and the “W” stands for Water-cooled. The “A” & “B” were the series. AVW’s had dry liners, by far more reliable, and the BVW’s had wet liners, and known for self-destructing, more so when cooled by the diabolical Cave-Brown-Cave system
EE59051
Thanks to the enigmatic EE59051 for his comments. I have a enormous soft spot for Bristol engined Bristols, but it is interesting to note that they seemed to have similar problems to AEC a propos wet liner and dry liner engines.
David Oldfield
Thanks to EE59051 for that very justified comment on the dreadful Cave-Brown-Cave system. In the first place its ugly radiator apertures completely disfigured the vehicles to which it was fitted. More importantly it was absolutely dangerous to drivers in the event of any leakage, especially at full speed, and even at the tiny WYRCC depot at Ilkley there were instances of scalding in the one year that I worked there.
Chris Youhill
I’ve often wondered why companies persevered with the Cave-Brown-Cave system as long as they did, as it never quite seemed to work as the inventor intended. My grandma (a very forgiving soul) would often complain on her family visits, about the freezing cold journeys she had endured from Bingley to Harrogate. The culprits were usually observed to be CBC ‘heated’ Lodekkas. My brother and I would empathise as we often suffered the same discomfort when we visited her, travelling on the same type of bus. Airlocks seemed to be the main culprit, and could give rise to the strange phenomenon of passengers complaining of how cold their bus was, whilst at the same time said bus was observed boiling away merrily at the front end! As a West Yorkshire Central Works apprentice, I spent three months working at Grove Park depot, and if a Lodekka was taken out of service as a result of boiling, it was just parked up in the depot and allowed to cool down. It was then topped up with water, whilst someone else worked the engine to try and circulate it around the system. All being well, it would then be deemed ready for action again. The Lodekka water filler cap was still in its original position just above where the traditional radiator would have been. However, as the CBC radiators were set several feet higher on the top deck, many of us thought this to be the cause of the water circulation problems. Although the BVW engine had its faults – and with hindsight maybe Bristol might have been better staying with dry liners – later versions were generally viewed by West Yorkshire as being decent workhorses. The bottom-end seemed pretty bullet-proof, with many of our examples covering 300,000 miles or more between overhauls, without any crankshaft or bearing problems.
Brendan Smith
Cave-Brown-Cave heating is within my experience, just, but what type of heating was evidenced by a round chrome’y-grill’y protrusion from the front downstairs bulkhead of some buses and coaches and did the system do upstairs, too?
Chris Hebbron
Ah- Memory Lane again: those funny round “heaters” (Clayton Dewandre?- do I imagine that?) on Yorkshire Traction Leylands. Did they ever give off any heat…? Was there a box too under a seat upstairs? They were presumably like the car heaters of the day- a pipe off the cooling system?
Joe
You’re right about the make, Joe. I don’t think that their output was very inspiring, from my limited experience.
Chris Hebbron
The large round heaters with mesh fronts and a chrome “hood” were indeed made by Clayton Dewandre Limited of Titanic Works, Lincoln. They had an electric expulsion fan to blow out the warm air, and warm it certainly was providing that the water circulation was in order, and that the engine was running at a reasonably high temperature. The “boxes under the seats” were usually the excellent and efficient “KL” models, which also had a powerful electric fan. Wiring in both types was usually arranged so that the fans either stopped or slowed while the engines were ticking over at stops. When Samuel Ledgard acquired second hand buses in the later years of the Company it was the practice to install “KL” boxes in both saloons – normally two downstairs and one at the front of the top deck. All of these “retro fitted” heaters were highly efficient and were much appreciated by passengers and conductors alike. In particular I remember the ex Exeter Daimler CVD6/Brush models, where I’ve known passengers plead for them to be turned off in mid Winter – JFJ 55 being the hottest – courtesy of the hot running Daimler engines.
Chris Youhill
Clayton Dewandre indeed, but only for those who sat inside. Sheffield’s first upstairs heating was the horrendously noisy system on 1325 – 1349 (Regent V/Roe).
David Oldfield
I like your ‘inside’ and ‘upstairs’, David. Reminds me when I was young, after the war, there were still a lot of older conductors who shouted at boarding passengers, ‘Plenty of room outside’ even though open-top buses were long gone!
Chris Hebbron
Its an absolute delight reading all these posts about Sammy Ledgard. My memories go back to before Sammy died, and the “exors” were formed. In many ways, this was a more interesting period as the fleet had more “corporate” character, with its “standard” Leylands going way back. This is all in the days before grey came into the livery. Many had Green roofs. It was certainly an enthusiasts paradise after 1953 with the amazing variety of second hand purchases, but I think my most precious Sammy memory is the Butlers scrapyard just below the “Fox and Hounds” near Menston. In 1953/4, and for some time after, this was full of withdrawn Ledgard buses, some going back to the 1920s. They had been stored at Armley for years, Sammy never disposing of “owt” which might come in useful!
John Whitaker
29/03/11 – 07:35
I am pretty sure that the first Sheffield buses delivered with underseat heaters in the top deck were the ECW bodied PD2s of 1957 (1152/3 and 1292-1294). I recall travelling on the 12 to Chesterfield on one when virtually new and being most disappointed that the noise from the heater drowned out the note of the O.600 engine.
Ian Wild
29/03/11 – 13:22
Significant that they were JOC buses. I never remember them on the 12, nor do I remember 1152/3 without doors. Having never travelled on any of these buses, I bow to your superior knowledge.
David Oldfield
29/03/11 – 13:30
I was most interested in John Whitaker’s nostalgia about the Butler scrapyard at Eller Ghyll, Menston where a large number of Ledgard vehicles were dismantled after years of storage. It was a place where mixed feelings were always aroused – revelling in the range of vehicles which languished there, and yet incredibly sad at the same time.
Here is one of my early snapshots (if only digital had been around !!). The larger vehicle is one of the ex B & B Leyland Lion LT1/Burlingham pair, KW 7944/5. No prizes for identifying the other two buses – they are 40% of the fleet of five heroic little Bedford OWBs which served so valiantly at the Yeadon (Moorfield) depot. It is impossible for those unfamiliar with the territory to imagine how much heavy work those little champions handled on two of the most intense and heavily patronised routes – and of necessity overloading was common which made their performance even more remarkable and creditable. I’ve driven OB coaches myself and never failed to marvel at how these tough little classics performed – unashamedly noisily while “getting up to speed” in the first three gears and then with dignified very quiet tones in “top.” I still can’t believe how 28hp petrol engines (many private cars today have greater capacity and technology) could produce such splendid results under heavy pressure. What a crying shame that more souvenirs were not saved from these vehicles as I’m quite sure that Butler’s would have been amenable to the cause. The final sad insult to the little Bedfords was to have to languish there in full view of their successors, as their former lifetime route was less than a hundred yards away on the road above !!
Chris Youhill
30/03/11 – 06:07
1294 and 1295 (the first of the three contemporary Roe bodied PD2/20) were allocated to Leadmill Road Depot hence 1294 turning up frequently on the 12 to Chesterfield. I don’t remember the Roe trio (1295-1297) being delivered with saloon heaters. There was a restricted height bridge at Dronfield on service 12 and not all buses could be used on the Chesterfield service. I suspect the ECW bodies were of slightly lower overall height than the Roe bodies on the similar chassis as I never remember seeing 1295 on the 12 although the standard vehicles for the route at that time were Roe bodied Regent III 1251-1282. Different chassis make, slightly lower build?
Ian Wild
30/03/14 – 12:54
Imagine an engine block in profile and standing next to it a tall radiator. Hot water rising from the engine passes thru a large hose to the top of the radiator. Movement air passing thru the radiator cools the water which slowly sinks returning via the bottom hose to the engine block whence it rises again. This is the simple thermo-syphon system with the of necessity tall radiator which was fitted to most pre-war vehicles. It had many disadvantages. Big improvements were made. At atmospheric pressure water boils off so the cooling system was pressurised to raise the boiling temperature. A cooling fan was fitted to draw air through the radiator even whilst the vehicle was stationary. A thermostat controlled the temperature of the cylinder head. Most importantly, an impeller pump was fitted to increase the cooling water circulation speed thus vastly increasing cooling efficiency. Efficient radiators could be made much smaller and lower. This was a boon to the bodywork designers wishing to offer attractive lower profiles. This is the reason why lower outlines became possible. It has nothing to do with the engine which can be tilted or even, as in the Commer TS3 design, laid flat.
Peter Woods
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
05/02/16 – 06:33
Back to radiator height, I believe on the high radiator access for the crank handle was below the radiators bottom tank, whereas on the low radiator everything was lower because it was possible for the shaft of the crank handle to pass between the radiators tubes. This was not a new arrangement as Tilling Stevens B10s of the late 20s had this style of radiator. Bonnet height was often determined by whether air filters were fitted above the engine.
Rotherham Corporation 1949 Bristol K6B East Lancs H30/26R
Rotherham was an enthusiastic Bristol operator until they became no longer available to non Tilling Companies. 180 is one of a batch of four Bristol L6B originally with Bruce B32C bodies delivered in 1949 and all rebodied in 1951 (only two years later) by East Lancs as H30/26R double deckers.
The photo was taken in August 1967 at the Chapeltown terminus of service 16. My information doesn’t include any withdrawal dates but the bus was a creditable 18 years old at the time.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild
180 lasted in service until 1967, one year later than the other three.
Chris Hebbron
Ah! Blue and cream – almost as good as cream and blue (Sheffield). Living in the far South West of Sheffield, I lived just about as far from Rotherham as I could be and the 69 went to Exchange Street, not Pond Street Bus Station. I am a fan of Bristol engined Bristols but wasn’t aware of Rotherham’s Bristols until long after they had gone. It was the AECs and Daimlers that I remember – and of course the AECs were actually in the minority. Ironically, Rotherham was to become significant to me – as a musician – in later years, and still is today.
David Oldfield
What a coincidence, David. I too lived on the south west side of Sheffield. I was at a training centre in Rawmarsh for 6 months during the winter of 1962/3 and travelled daily by bus. The 69 of course was a joint Sheffield/Rotherham service, Rotherham’s contribution almost exclusively being a Crossley. Rotherham had one single lady driver which was unusual in those days but she was a complete master (mistress?) of the Crossleys. Sheffield used their three ‘stock’ all Leyland PD2s (601-603), with their none standard destination displays on the 69. I seem to remember them having a brown seating material rather than Sheffield standard. From Rotherham I travelled to Rawmarsh by Mexborough and Swinton. Their lowbridge Atlanteans were quite unusual to my eyes although later I worked for a fleet with 105 of them! Best thing about M&S was the almost exclusive use of conductresses, many of them rather attractive!! Does anyone have any photos of the M&S Atlanteans?
Ian Wild
The interesting question is, why were these vehicles re-bodied after only two years? It’s inconceivable that the Bruce bodies would have been unserviceable after such a short time, I believe Bruce had a good reputation and weren’t they associated with East Lancs? Was it the case that Rotherham suddenly had a desperate need for double deckers? and were the original bodies re-used on other chassis? Did the fact that they were single deck chassis have any effect on the rear platform of the re-bodied vehicles, such as the Wallace Arnold re-bodied Daimlers for Kippax and Farsley with their two-step platforms?
Chris Barker
And it wasn’t a cheap conversion, either. They were delivered as Bristol L6B’s, which were single decker chassis. The Bruce bodies were classified B32C’s which suggests that they were originally coaches rather than single-deck buses. The chassis were then rebuilt to K6B standard and fitted with the East Lancs double decker bodies. It’s likely that even the gearbox/axle ratios needed changing. But, as Chris B says, what were the ‘coaches’ originally planned for?
Chris Hebbron
Two-step platforms: there was a fashion for these in the early 50’s: Doncaster had some new Roes in the 120’s with two step platforms and cranked seats- was it a way of dealing with 7ft 6in widths for narrow streets (or narrow washers depending which version you prefer)?
Joe
I wonder if it was something to do with Rotherham getting wind of the impending loss of access to new Bristols. They may have taken whatever they could get hold of before the stable door was finally locked and bolted, on the basis that a 6B is a 6B, whatever happens to be sitting on top of it. It is quite probable that there would be a second-hand market for four good-quality coach bodies no more than two years old. From an accounting point of view it is quite likely that the subsequent rebodying would be done through the maintenance budget. So there would be few questions asked (however much it cost), compared with the approval process for purchasing new capital stock.
Stephen Ford
PSV Circle fleet supplement P71R dated October 1963 provides further information. Eight 1949 Bristol L6Bs were rebodied with double deck bodies in 1951, fleet numbers 112-114 and 179-184. The displaced single deck bodies were fitted to prewar L5Gs fleet numbers 137/140/142/143 of 1938 and 159-162 of 1939. Of these, at least 137 etc originally had Cravens bodies. All were withdrawn in 1957/1958. Please note these B32C bodies were bus bodies (not coach)- the C refers to central entrance which seems to have been a Rotherham speciality as the Cravens bodies were of the same configuration.
Ian Wild
Following on from Ians comment, centre entrances were very common in this area. Rotherham also ran many centre entrance single decker Daimler trolleybuses, a number of which were rebodied at a very young age with Roe double deck bodies. Rotherham were the joint operator with Mexborough and Swinton on services between Rotherham and Conisborough via Mexborough. Most of the ‘tracklesses’ operated by the Mexborough system were centre entrance with only a few very early examples and some wartime second hand vehicles bucking the trend. One of the latest centre door vehicles that I can think of in that area was a Doncaster CT Regal IV that from new was equipped with a centre door body albeit rebuilt to dual entrance later in life.
Dates relevant to the bus shown in the photo above are:- Date into service – March 1949 (original body was by Bruce on East Lancs frames) Chassis modified from L6B to K6B and rebodied by East Lancs in April 1951 Withdrawn October 1967 it passed to Autospares of Bingley for scrap in December 1967. The original single deck body was used to rebody the refurbished chassis of a 1940 L5G of the CET 44x batch numbers 159 – 162
Andrew Charles
27/02/11 – 12:00
Some interesting comments here, but does putting a double-deck body on a Bristol L make it a K? I grew up in Bristol and remember all the rebodying that went on but Bristol Omnibus never did a single to double deck conversion. The L chassis was 27′ 6″ long, the K 26′ but, by the time of Rotherham’s rebodying, double deckers were allowed to be 27′ long. So how long was 180? Rotherham went on to buy the KS chassis, the only non-Tilling operator to do so; comparing photo-graphs of the two, 180 is almost certainly 26′ long, so the chassis had to be shortened to fit the new double deck body.
West Yorkshire Road Car Company 1954 Bristol K5G ECW H28/28R
A fine vehicle indeed, but quite sad in some ways. This typical ex-Tilling Group Bristol K5G is spending its final days on loan to Yorkshire Woollen District, after its parent company (York-West Yorkshire) had lost its Tilling identity to the National Bus Company.
Eleven Bristol K5Gs were added to the York – West Yorkshire fleet in 1939, being numbered Y395-9/Y701-6, and registered DWU 133-7/994-9, (706 is seen to the right here). They gave sterling service, and will always be remembered by West Yorkshire fans as a contrast to the dominance of the post war style in the fleet, as they lasted in original form until 1954/5. In 1954/5, they were taken out of service, and were to re-emerge with handsome new 4 bay ECW bodies as seen here. New chassis frames were used, but the running units were fully overhauled and re-fitted. Because new chassis frames were fitted, the rebuilt vehicles were re-registered OWT 195-205. To cover their temporary absence, 3 most interesting vehicles were purchased from Brighton, Hove and District, and these would merit a post in themselves! They were 1931/2 AEC “Regents” which had “Gardner 5s”, and 1944 ECW highbridge bodies to the post war profile, being quite similar to the prototype body built the same year on a K5G for the Tilling Group. A ride on one of these vehicles was like being at a symphony concert! – melodies and harmonies from the gearbox and engine were beyond description, but a delight nevertheless. One could perhaps walk quicker than the top speed of these veterans, which were numbered ADG 1-3 in the new 1954 system! To return to our rebuilt K5Gs, they re-entered service with YDG numbers in the new system mentioned above, and settled down to give another fine spell of service, before succumbing to the inevitable FS type Lodekka, and others. The new numbers were YDG 82-92 and YDG 88 is seen in our main photograph above, which was taken by Bob at Dewsbury bus station in July 1969. York-West Yorkshire was a truly wonderful fleet, and how lucky we West Yorkshire enthusiasts were to have these two “side fleets” of Keighley , and York, which both had their own character and contrast to the main fleet. Keighley, and the main fleet always used lowbridge double deckers, whereas York used the highbridge layout, and the flat terrain was ideal for the K5G. I can still hear them chugging sedately round that beautiful old city! As always, when nostalgia kicks in, it is really difficult to grasp the passage of time, it now being well over 40 years since the demise of these buses. York never seems (quite) the same place these days, without the super old red and cream buses which were part of the character of the place!
Photograph Bob Gell, insert shot S J N White with copy by John Whitaker
Full lists of Bristol and West Yorkshire codes can be seen here.
13/03/11 – 10:38
Thank you, thank you, John, for your wonderful write-up that so faithfully reflects the spirit of the York-West Yorkshire fleet of my childhood and youth. I was brought up with the 1939 K5Gs; the photo of 706, with its original ‘bible’, (or ‘flap-board’), indicator is shown on route 6, regularly operated with these vehicles, as was service 2 between Stuart Road and Bur Dyke Avenue. I remember so well as a small boy waiting at our local bus stop with my mother, telling her the service number of the next bus to arrive – you could hear it before you saw it – by the sound of the engine. Sometimes you could even tell individual vehicles from their distinctive engine notes. The rebodying exercise resulted in these buses having a remarkable total life of almost 30 years with Y-WY. It did produce the cynical response amongst some York residents, however, that re-registering them was a bit of a con trick by the Joint Undertaking to disguise the vehicles’ true age. In service the rebuilt vehicles tended, to be truthful, to lack performance, (were the new bodies heavier?), even on York’s relatively flat terrain. Y-WY had a policy of allocating Bristol and Gardner engined buses to different routes, but some routes might have either. I worked for Y-WY as a conductor in 1962 and 1963, and getting a YDG rather than a YDB or YDX was a sign that you could well end up running late at peak times. You also mention the famous ADGs. I never came across them because my father worked abroad during their entire time with Y-WY, but I remember a driver on the Fulford Rota – they were mainly used on the 4/4A route – demonstrating to me in graphic and most amusing detail that they were the most unpleasant and unrewarding vehicles he ever drove. He said the pedals were very high while the gear lever was positioned low down and behind the driver, so that all gear changes required an act of contortion. He reckoned – as you say, ADGs were not noticeably quick – that a change from third to second was a lottery to be avoided at all costs, and claimed, (of course drivers were not always accurate in their interpretations of management decisions), that the reason the ADGs were usually allocated to the Fulford Rota was to reduce that eventuality by avoiding Holgate Hill. Incidentally, they were never actually owned by Y-WY, despite having the name on the side, but were hired from WY. Finally, the colour picture of YDG88 shows it with its later, T-shaped destination indicator. Originally, it had the full three-section indicator, which had five different blinds to set. When you were running late on Service 3/11, changing from 11A back to 3 at the terminus was a drag, especially if it was your last trip before being relieved and you had an impatient driver. Thank you again, John. Happy days, indeed!
Roy Burke
13/03/11 – 10:46
I was very interested to see the photograph of West Yorkshire OWT 281. These were along with others initially hired from West Yorkshire and then taken in to the Yorkshire Woollen fleet during a vehicle shortage. I remember conducting these buses.
Philip Carlton
14/03/11 – 07:17
John W has said some wonderful things about York West Yorkshire and brought back many fond memories of my visits to York in the early fifties. West Yorkshire Road Car was in my view a quality ex Tilling Company and always produced some excellent rebuilt pre-war Bristol K5G buses from their Harrogate Works. The final York K5Gs were their last re-bodies to appear and were based again on a solid Bristol engineering and a Gardner 5LW.
Richard Fieldhouse
14/03/11 – 07:22
Roy’s last paragraph reminds me of the ultimate “pantomime” concerning the changing of multiple destination displays. When I was a West Yorkshire conductor at Ilkley we had a route to Heber’s Ghyll – five minutes each way and no recovery (standing) time. Single deckers were always used and had three piece displays front and rear, and always went straight onto other routes with differing information.
Chris Youhill
14/03/11 – 13:17
I am really pleased Roy, that you enjoyed the post about what are obviously favourite buses to us both! Thanks also for the ADG anecdotes. I believe the OWT rebodies would be less lively than the originals, as they would, as you suggest, be heavier. There really was something special and “ponderous” about YWY which was absolutely fascinating. We lived in Bradford, but passed through regularly on the way to Bridlington, and our weekend/holiday tram bungalow at Skipsea. Lucky you, living there. You must have plenty of WY experience to share with us!
John Whitaker
16/03/11 – 11:14
As you say, John, I had lots of pleasant and amusing experiences with York-West Yorkshire, which I’d happily share, except that much the same could be said of anyone who’s worked as a conductor with any operator. Two examples: Chris has shared his recollection of changing a blind in a hurry. Great fun, but I bet there are many readers of this site who have had the unnerving experience of changing a front blind as the driver reversed into a side road. I’ve done that many times, but I used to draw the line at the driver pulling forward again while I was still clinging on although jumping off as the driver did so was a real recipe for trouble! Also, while I agree with you wholeheartedly about missing the red and cream buses, the atmosphere of York City itself has changed a great deal in the last half century; not for the better in my view, but that’s life. I recall, incidentally, a passenger who must then have been about the same age we are now telling me he remembered when the colour of the City’s buses was blue, so…..
Roy Burke
16/03/11 – 14:18
Hi Roy. I cannot remember the blue buses in York, but I do know what you mean!. I was in York two Saturdays ago for a railway Museum visit, and I must admit it was a little too “Touristy” for my taste these days. Things change. Maybe we could share our photo collections a bit, as we probably both have gaps. Just a thought, and good to share happy memories with another enthusiast.
John Whitaker
23/03/11 – 17:55
As a boy the first time I really took any notice of buses was on a holiday to Bournemouth (late 60’s), looking out for KSW’s without a dented front or rear dome (there weren’t many) I thought the Green and Cream livery on the Hants and Dorset buses very smart until I noticed a Red and Cream Lodekka FLF belonging to Wilts and Dorset, I liked the squarer profile of the K to the more rounded Lodekka. My dad couldn’t understand why we had to go past the bus station each day, a great holiday and buses.
Roger Broughton
24/03/11 – 06:39
Hi, has anyone out there a West Yorkshire fleet list that I could have a copy of, as my own list is a very sketchy one?
Keith Easton
24/03/11 – 18:25
Hi Keith Re. WYRC fleet list. I have the one in the old TPC book by Keith Jenkinson, but it is a bit sketchy, with no withdrawal dates. I could transcribe this over time, into acceptable format and put it forward for inclusion in the new fleet list section. There is, however, both a PSV Circle list, and a West Yorkshire Information Service (now defunct) list which gives a lot more detail, so before embarking on any such project, does any of our “fraternity” have one of these publications. I am afraid mine disappeared years ago, although I have taken extracts from PSVC one at the Omnibus Soc. archives. If I go ahead with this, it will need someone else to take over after about 1956, when my interest begins to wane!
John Whitaker
25/03/11 – 08:16
Hi John, Thanks for the offer, but the TPC book is where my somewhat sketchy list came from! I have most details from the 1980’s, and the earlier ones would be most welcome, but perhaps wait until we see what, if anything, materialises. Once again thanks for your offer.
Keith Easton
09/05/11 – 08:11
After reading all the interesting comments above about the York fleet, I seemed to recall that at some point YWY had considered purchasing some second hand KSWs for the fleet. On looking through John F Gill’s fascinating and very informative book ‘York-West Yorkshire Joint Services – 50 Years of Joint Services 1934-1984’ again, this was confirmed. What surprised me though was the lateness of the year – 1967. At this time YWY was ordering new VR and RE buses for its 1968/9 deliveries, to replace the rebuilt K5Gs (including YDG 88 illustrated above) and two of the 1951 KS-types, which according to the book would have left eight YDBs in service, and that the JOC were considering purchasing eight 1954 KSWs from Bristol Omnibus to replace them! However, it was later decided not to pursue the matter, as the cost of bringing the vehicles up to standard would have been uneconomic. (The book states that the only Bristol Omnibus double deckers that fitted the date quoted would have been highbridge KSWs from the PHW/SHW-registered batches). Given the notorious reliability problems with the early VRTs though, maybe the JOC were on the right track after all!
Brendan Smith
10/05/11 – 07:26
I used to travel on United Counties between Derngate and Earls Barton. The routes on A45 were mostly 402 and 404. K6A were normal, but 3 buses had 6 cyl engines 615 662 were 2 of them. in the morning it was 2 L5G single deckers every day. These had an overdrive gear engaged from 4th. it was only usable from about 40mph. occasionally the speed reached nearly 60 on the down hills, but how I wish they had the familiar [to me] Daimler gearboxes. the town buses were so different but i think all had Gardner 5s. I was at Barton turn one day and 4 corporation buses roared past where the K5s struggled.
P Bartlett
10/05/11 – 07:30
Brendan’s point about York-West Yorks looking at Bristol OC K types is interesting given that some of their own would have gone to Yorkshire Woollen in 1969 to a vehicle shortage there!
Chris Hough
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
22/01/12 – 11:38
Having been away from from my computer for a while, I’ve only just seen this excellent posting, which for me – by co-incidence it’s now within a day or two of being exactly 50 years since I began working for York-West Yorkshire – has particular nostalgia. I remember these vehicles very well indeed, and must have worked on YDG88 many, many times. The re-bodied 1939 K5Gs were probably the most unpopular vehicles in the Y-WY fleet – certainly amongst the crews, and in so far as they took any notice of the bus they were travelling on, with passengers too. As Richard F points out, they were noisy and and rough, both the ride and the engine note. The photo was, I believe, taken in Rougier Street, where the sound of anything pulling away with a full load and a 5LW engine reverberated loudly. Since there would often be an East Yorkshire Leyland passing through at the same time, the comparison was not flattering to Y-WY! They were also slow, even in comparison with the re-bodied 1938 K5Gs, which I’ve always assumed, (others, better informed, might disabuse me of that notion), was due to their body weight. Some drivers would, for example, use first gear when pulling away from the traffic lights at the junction of Queen Street and Blossom Street with a full load, the only vehicles on which this ever happened. On the question of re-registering, Keith Jenkinson, in his highly informative book, ‘York City Buses’, says that the decision was taken at a meeting of the Joint Committee on 20 July 1954: ‘…as they would appear as “new” buses, it was agreed that they should be re-registered in order to reflect that.’ A popular explanation amongst the crews – I don’t vouch for its truthfulness – was that a City Councillor on the Joint Committee was facing re-election and was keen to get York some ‘new’ buses since there hadn’t been any since February 1952. Giving the vehicles new fleet numbers was just being consistent with new registration numbers. One point has always baffled me and I’d be grateful for an explanation from someone. Some of these vehicles ended up with Yorkshire Woollen District to cover for that company’s vehicle shortage in, I think, 1969. My query is about the reasons for YWD’s shortage. All BET companies had a vehicle replacement programme, so what caused the shortage?
