Huddersfield Corporation – Daimler CVG6 – DCX 114B – 114

Huddersfield Corporation
1964
Daimler CVG6-LX30
Roe H39/31F

This particular vehicle has appeared on this site before, but a comment came in from Stephen Ford requesting any rear or internal shots. So I thought I would oblige, no internal shot I’m afraid but it’s not a bad rear end. I notice on this particular vehicle there is no destination blinds at the rear I do not think it was as easy to have them on front entrance vehicles. I know they had rear destination blinds on the rear entrance Regent IIIs I used for school, the number of times I saw the 63 tootling merrily up the road resulting in me having a one mile walk home or wait an hour for the next one.

If you have any rear or internal shots please feel free to contribute them to the site for everyone else to see.

This bus ..114 was a Huddersfield Joint Omnibus Committee bus it was never fitted with rear number blinds … the Joint omnibus committee vehicles at the time were allowed to carry adverts .. and the space was available for advertisers .
The similar buses that were owned purely by the Corporation had rear number blinds fitted up until 1966.
The Corporation at the time did not allow any advertisements on the outside of its vehicles.

Colin


In my West Yorkshire gallery this difference is illustrated by a couple of consecutive rear end photos of (3202 and 3203) in the Holme Valley collection. See here

David Beilby


Interesting shots of the Roe rear ends David. I note that the lower rear panels from the axle back have been shortened to prevent them ‘grounding’ when negotiating junctions at the bottom of very steep hills. Bradford C T carried out this modification to the rear overhang of many of its MCW-bodied AEC Regent Vs for the same reason, with the rear chassis extensions being similarly visible. On the subject of rear ends, does anyone else wonder why some coachbuilders fitted (and some operators specified) such dated features as split upper deck emergency windows, on what were otherwise quite modern-looking front entrance buses? Even the ‘balloon roof’ Alexander bodies mounted on Atlantean and Fleetline chassis could be had with them, despite having very modern curved screens on both decks at the front!

Brendan Smith

Derby Corporation – Daimler CVD6 – BCH 135 – 35


Copyright Ian Wild

Derby Corporation Transport
1949
Daimler CVD6
Brush H30/26R

I don’t know a great deal about Derby buses. This was taken on a short visit in August 1967. It’s a Daimler CVD6 with I think a Brush body. The olive green and cream livery was quite unusual and sombre and the provision of a polished rear bumper (just visible) seemed really old fashioned.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

A full list of Daimler codes can be seen here.

Brush were popular around their native Loughborough but “disappeared” after about 1952 when taken over by neighbour Willowbrook. They continued with their railway (locomotive) work and I believe they still exist (but not necessarily by the same name).
Derby and Nottingham were both big Brush customers but their biggest was possibly BET.

David Oldfield

This bus is identical to four vehicles purchased second hand by Samuel Ledgard and new to Exeter Corporation – these, too, had the useful but “dated” offside rear bumpers. Ledgard also bought the entire batch of ten similar buses withdrawn indecently early by Leeds City Transport. An immediate furore occurred in the Council Chamber and angry questions were asked as to why they had been sold and yet were in widespread use on busy services in and around Leeds – and just to rub salt in the wound they were to be seen daily passing their former home depot at Headingley!! At once a ban was placed on the sale of any further LCT vehicles for use within the City. The Brush bodies were beautifully built and were very heavy, but this posed no problems for the superb smooth and powerful Daimler engines.

Chris Youhill

Not sure they were taken over by Willowbrook David, more that they chose to leave the bus business, and sold their designs to neighbours Willowbrook. I live in Loughborough, and this is what local enthusiasts tell me, as well as the many retired folk who live here and worked at “The Brush”.
Brush had a major national share of the bus body business, and were by no means a regional player though.
Brush do still exist in the town, much reduced, but more involved with transformer work and the like. At one time, they were the second biggest builder of tramcars in the UK. (Dick, Kerr being No1 with the ERTCW works at Preston).
The Derby style, also used by Exeter, Leeds Bradford et al is a composite development of the wartime design, whereas the post war metal bodies were much more rounded and stylish as seen on the Leicester Mk 111s.

John Whitaker

31/01/11

I’m very pleased to see this posted as I’ve been considering recently, the fact that Brush seemed to have several styles in production at the same time. There was the type shown, which as John says was a progression of the utility design, then the type supplied to Maidstone Corporation and Yorkshire Woollen which had metal window pans with more rounded corners. In addition, the Leicester Regent III’s (and also six for Ebor of Mansfield) again referred to by John, were a completely different design.
I’ve also wondered about their durability, as some were disposed of after relatively short lives, such as the Leeds examples which Chris refers to and the Bradford ones (although both had second lives with Ledgard and Green Bus) Nottingham only kept their Daimlers for nine years but the trolleybuses were built like tanks and would have lasted forever! Derby got over twenty years out of the batch shown, and I note Chris’s comment about them being beautifully built, so is there any truth in the suggestion that some operators had problems with Daimlers cooling system?
Derby had three batches of Daimlers, the ACH’s, the BCH’s (8ft wide) and the CRC’s of 1952 which were apparently finished by Willowbrook and had curved fronts, whilst the Crossleys and Fodens of the same year had the flat front as shown. Luckily a Daimler and a Crossley are still with us, if only a Foden could have made a trio!

Chris Barker

31/01/11

I stand to be corrected, but wasn’t this batch the first of the 8 foot wide version? The Leeds, Exeter, Bradford, SHMD, Nottingham and earlier Derby ones were 7 foot 6 wide – Derby No.27 (ACH627) is preserved. Derby had quite a large fleet of the 8 foot CVD6s with Brush bodywork. The obvious difference inside was that the light fittings were a polished flat circular plate, instead of the chromium plated “volcano” on the earlier vehicles. I have seen a comment in connection with SHMD that the “Brush bodies were rubbish”. However, to me they always exuded charm. It is true that the Nottingham ones had a relatively short life, but then, Daimlers were little more than a footnote in a fleet that was massively dominated by AECs. By the way, for anyone straining to read it, the blind reads “Priory Estate via Sussex Circus”. I never understood why they insisted on blanking off half the window and having such ridiculously small lettering!

Stephen Ford

31/01/11

Although not using a Brush design one of the biggest customers for Loughborough built bodywork was Midland Red who bought both pre and post war Brush bodywork The Falcon works of Brush were also responsible for many first generation diesel locos for British Rail most notably the class 47 also known in some circles as the Brush type 4

Chris Hough

31/01/11 – 15:00

Chris B mentions that it was said in certain quarters that the Daimler cooling system could give problems. I don’t know about this from the operators’ points of view, but I can say for certain that those splendid engines did run very hot all the time, Winter included, and “boiling” was not unknown. One unusual feature was that the exhaust manifold was on the inner (driver’s) side of the engine, which ensured a scorched left leg in Summer and welcome warmth in the colder times. The practice at Samuel Ledgard was to fit all second hand buses with those excellent “KL” underseat heaters – two downstairs and one under the front seat “up aloft.” They certainly had the method off to perfection because all worked extremely effectively. I can relate without exaggeration that one Daimler in particular, former Exeter JFJ 55, was so hot in even the worst of weather that passengers were known on occasion to beg for the heaters to be turned OFF !!

Chris Youhill

31/01/11 – 20:16

Hence (presumably) the practice of driving them with the side access panel open & leaning on the mudguard: ah the smell of hot diesel… you just don’t get it today.

Joe

01/02/11 – 05:30

Indeed, I can just remember the Derby Daimlers operating with the bonnet side open, it was always a joy to see them running like that!
On the subject of Brush bodies, I had forgotten to mention the Ribble PD1’s and PD2’s which were yet another style, so when John W states that Brush sold their designs to Willowbrook when they left the bus business, it seems there were plenty of them!

Chris Barker

01/02/11 – 05:33

I have it on good authority that Birmingham’s Daimler engines were certainly plagued with overheating problems. Elsewhere smoking is the main problem I’ve heard of.
On the subject of Brush bodies it should not be forgotten that there were also 50 on Daimler CVG5 chassis for Manchester. According to “The Manchester Bus” by Eyre & Heaps these caused the company a major headache because they had not realised they had to be built to the Corporation’s own curvy design, but in the end they were among the finest bodies Brush ever built.
However, I first encountered the Brush name not on any of the products mentioned in these comments, but on an electric milk float!

Peter Williamson

02/02/11 – 06:18

Chris Y mentions about the exhaust manifold being on the driver’s side, and the smell of burning flesh from the driver in Summer! London Transport’s D’s were nearly all CWA6’s, but they did take about 10 CWD6’s to aid Daimler’s development of it. The non-standard engine, the exhaust heating and access problem and the fact the the timing chains were at the back of the engine, ensured that, in 1950, they were re-engined with surplus AEC engines. However, I well recall one CWD6 bearing a chalk comment in the driving cab “Dxxx, the fastest D of them all”!.
Incidentally, Chris Y talks about the ‘Sutton’ Daimler CWA’s going to Samuuel Ledgard, and I also thought there were no exceptions. However, I’ve found that SL took just one Merton one. It was Brush-bodied D126 (GYL 291), with them from 8/56 to 6/60. Does it ring a bell, Chris? (No pun intended!).

Chris Hebbron

02/02/11 – 10:04

I didn’t make things quite clear originally Chris and I actually meant that the twenty two 1946 Park Royal “HGF”s were all from Sutton Depot. I remember GYL 291 very well indeed and there is a super picture of it in “London’s Utility Buses” (page 127) by Ken Blacker. By coincidence it is passing Streatham Common within yards of the top of Leigham Court Road where my relations were and so its possible I may have ridden on it there as a youngster. Pictures of some of the twenty two “HGF”s also appear in the same splendid book. Ledgard also had just one more London utility Daimler – Duple bodied D178 (HGF 805). There is no doubt at all that these vehicles literally saved the Firm from going under due to death duties after Samuel Ledgard died in April 1952. Only those of us actually “on site” can appreciate the heroic heavy work that they did. Despite being second (or more) hand their performance and reliability were a credit to the maintenance in London and here in the West Riding of Yorkshire. Some of the schedules involved heavy loadings, tight timetables, hilly terrain and daily mileages in excess of two hundred and yet failures were virtually unheard of. “Lost mileage” was an obscene term at Ledgard’s, and any rare occurrence resulted in a thorough enquiry and, if necessary, the rolling of a guilty head or two !!

Chris Youhill

02/02/11 – 10:04

GYL 291 came to Sammy via Bee Line did it not Chris. So sayeth “Beer and Blue Buses”, one of the best bus books I ever bought!

John Whitaker

02/02/11 – 20:53

GYL 291 certainly did arrive with Ledgard thus John. “Beer and Blue Buses” is indeed a splendid volume – marred only by the picture of a certain young conductor on the front cover – yours truly. I willingly helped my friend Don considerably with certain aspects of the book, notably operational issues and photo captions, and just a few of my own early pictures and my route map are included.

Chris Youhill

02/02/11 – 21:13

Thx, John, for clarifying its second owner, who obviously looked after it well.
Chris Y – bearing in mind the fragile nature of the bodies (and LT gave up overhauling them part-way through) did Ledgard’s not have body problems with them?

Chris Hebbron

03/02/11 – 10:40

Chris H – As GYL 291 was always at the Armley Head Depot and was our only Brush utility I can’t comment on it individually but I’m not aware of it being troublesome. As far as the utilities bought new by Ledgard are concerned the Roe and Duple bodies caused remarkably little trouble through out their existence. The same can’t be said for the two Pickering bodies on the Guys which fell into awful dilapidation long before they were replaced at eight years old !! Also, in contrast to the very satisfactory mechanical performance and reliability of the “Sutton HGFs”, it has to be acknowledged that many of their Park Royal “relaxed utility” bodies needed a fair amount of rectification from time to time – this treatment though was invariably successful though and ensured further front line service. One exception was the very sad HGF 940 (D 263) of Otley Depot which was in such awful condition bodywise that, after only one recertification, it was the first of the twenty two to be withdrawn, and prematurely at that. The body of HGF 948 (D 271) was transferred on acquisition to one of Sammy’s own CWA6s, JUB 649 and made a very fine vehicle which was a pleasure to work on. The chassis of HGF 948 then received the rebuilt coach body from a 1935 Maudslay – Sammy’s were never afraid to tackle enterprising engineering exercises, but this strange scheme had everyone baffled and remains an enigma to this day !!

Chris Youhill

03/02/11 – 17:59

Re. Chris`s comments on HGF 948.
This was an amazing exercise which no enthusiast has ever really understood. How much service did the resultant coach actually enjoy, as I never saw it in service.
It is the sort of exercise which is more appropriate to the lifetime of Mr Ledgard, and not to the regime of the “executors” Ledgards just has to be the finest independent for enthusiasts to get excited about, and the book “Beer and Blue Buses” brings it all back to mind. Well worth the money, although a price rise is to be expected due to the sartorial elegance of a certain person on the front cover! Must be worth another fiver Chris!

John Whitaker

03/02/11 – 20:14

Is this book still available? If so how would I obtain a copy?

Chris Barker

04/02/11 – 06:50

John, regarding HGF 948 I’m happy to say that, despite its strange creation, it was extremely busy on all classes of work throughout its time with Ledgard. Arriving in April 1954 it ran until withdrawal after an accident in January 1960 and was sold in the April. Your kind remarks are greatly appreciated but I’m happy to say that there will be no increase in the price of the book as a result of my appearance on the cover – in fact many wags have been heard to loudly declare that a drastic reduction is called for !!
Chris B, the book is still available in many West Yorkshire book shops and, I believe, by mail order from the Samuel Ledgard Society or from the author, Don. Postage is expensive on account of the great weight of the book and so collection is preferable naturally. If you care ask Peter for my address and E Mail me, indicating your locality, I’ll see what arrangements can be made should you decide you’d like one.

Chris Youhill

05/02/11 – 05:35

Chris Y – Thank you for the detailed and interesting reply. I must say that I have warmed to SL following your various enthusiastic comments; a company, like Provincial, not afraid of ploughing its own furrow in a thoroughly professional way, especially through the hard times.
Now, how about a photo of that Maudslay/Daimler CWA6 conversion!

Chris Hebbron

05/02/11 – 05:45

Well, many thanks Chris for that, I do visit Leeds from time to time, so if there’s anywhere there which may have it, I’d be happy to seek it out on a future visit

Chris Barker

05/02/11 – 09:26

Thanks for the reference to “Beer and Blue Buses”, John and Chris. I plan to go to the Dewsbury Bus Museum Open Day on March 13th. I wonder whether a stallholder there will have a few copies? Hope so!

Ian Thompson

27/02/11 – 20:42

I think what stands out on this body is the hallmarks it still bears with Brush’s austerity style, and these bodies were produced in 1949 and still identical to the style that Derby took in 1946 (22-27)! It doesn’t detract that they look handsome in Derby’s tasteful colour scheme.

Chris Hebbron

PMT – Daimler CVG6 – XVT 676 – L6676


Copyright Ian Wild

Potteries Motor Traction
1956
Daimler CVG6
Northern Counties L31/28RD

The above vehicle is one of a 30 strong batch delivered in 1956 – half with Metro Cammell H61RD bodies, the other half as shown.
These were delivered with Gardner 5LW engines and Twyflex Centrifugal Clutches (rather than the more usual fluid flywheels). Both features I suspect were down to the BET Group’s parsimony in relation to fuel consumption. The 5LW was never a match for the hilly Potteries area in these buses. Over the years, more than half were fitted with 6LW engines and one, H6656, even acquired a fluid flywheel as well. They were colloquially known as ‘Jumpers’ referring to their tendency to lurch when pulling away on an uphill gradient, something more common with the 5LW versions. Only three of the lowbridge variety kept 5LWs to the bitter end, L6664, L6666 and L6673. The photo was taken at Sandbach in May 1969 and shows Burslem (locally pronounced “Boslum”) Depots L6676 on a Market Day extra from Hanley. Sandbach market was a popular attraction in the area in those days.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

A full list of Daimler codes can be seen here.


28/03/11 – 10:30

Apparently the Twiflex centrifugal clutch is still in production. To have lasted at least 54 years it must now be a judder-free product, though I know these things often depend on the installation. Fluid flywheels are reckoned to be only 96-97.5% efficient even at high revs/low load (where the engine itself isn’t particularly efficient) so I guess that allowing also for time spent in gear at traffic lights, with the engine on “heavy” idle churning the fluid round, the fuel consumption would be about 8% greater than that achieved with a clutch, whether plain or centrifugal. Two question, therefore:
1) Has anyone any comparative consumption figures?
2) Have any Twiflex-equipped buses survived?

Ian Thompson


25/01/13 – 18:10

There can’t have been many 27ft long lowbridge double deckers built with a top deck capacity of 31. It must have been achieved by an additional 4 seater row – I travelled on these quite frequently on the 46 to Blurton Estates but I don’t recall any particular problem with passing other seated passengers when alighting.

Ian Wild


26/01/13 – 06:38

Here’s a photo of a Twiflex Centrifugal Clutch, looking much like the shoe part of a drum brake, certainly simpler than a fluid flywheel. See //tinyurl.com

Chris Hebbron


27/01/13 – 07:55

That’s pretty much as I recall the Twiflex clutch except that the modern version seems to be hydraulically actuated (pipe to each segment). My recollection is that the shoe assemblies were on metalastic mounts which dampened the centrifugal force as the assembly was accelerated. It’s a long time ago-I may not have this quite right. interesting to see the design is now of Ukranian manufacture! I don’t recall having to replace one of these clutches whereas the fluid flywheel glands in Atlantean, Fleetline and Roadliner were commonplace failures.

Ian Wild


27/01/13 – 12:17

And to what vehicles do you recall these clutches being fitted, Ian?

Chris Hebbron


28/01/13 – 17:35

Chris-all 30 of the PMT Daimler CVG5s of 1956 were delivered with Twiflex clutches in place of fluid flywheels. I’m sure I’ve read somewhere (maybe elsewhere on this site?) that Walsall Corporation also tried them in the mid 50s.

Ian Wild


22/07/14 – 06:48

Walsall Corporation took delivery of 15 Daimler CVG6 buses with twiflex system transmission in 1956 and they were nicknamed “jumping jacks”. Here’s a newspaper report from 1974 referring to these buses: www.flickr.com/photos/walsall1955/

Walsall1955


09/12/15 – 06:09

At Stoke Depot we did meal break duties on these on the 46 Blurton run. These ‘Jumping Jacks’ were hated to a man.

David Knight

Cape Town City Tramways – Daimler CVG6/6

Copyright Victor Brumby

Cape Town City Tramways
1949
Daimler CVG6/6
Weymann H70R

I thought you may be interested in this wide radiator Daimler CVG6/6 I think the second six stands for six wheels as it does have three axels. It lies in the James Hall Museum of Transport in Johannesburg, alongside some other interesting British psv’s, including RT 2634. For another shot that shows the two rear axles click on this link //www.jhmt.org.za/

Photograph and Copy contributed by Victor Brumby

09/11/11 – 18:36

Are we sure that it’s a CVG6? The only reason I ask is that it appears to have the same radiator grill used on CD650s (with the big Daimler engine). I don’t have any reference books on South African vehicles so perhaps the customer just specified the CD650 type radiator to aid cooling in the hot climate.

Neville Mercer

09/11/11 – 22:01

It looks like Victor is correct in describing this magnificent vehicle as a CVG6/6.
I have come across this website written by a Mr David Jones (but beware of irritating pop-ups on the pages), which has the following interesting insight; //www.freewebs.com/citytramway/index.htm
“Undoubtedly amongst the most impressive buses I have ever seen were the twenty 3 axle Daimler CVG6/6 double-deckers with Weymann 64 seat bodywork delivered in 1949. They worked the northern routes to Bellville and Kuils River
proposed trackless tram extensions – and made a most impressive sight as they rounded the Parade with their deep throated Gardner engines and fluid flywheels. Unlike the other Daimlers, these beauties were fitted with wide radiators, normally associated with Daimler’s CD650 model, thus adding to their aura of power and size. The chassis was essentially Daimler’s trolleybus chassis and along with thirty Guys built for Johannesburg from 1958, they were the only traditional three axle British half-cabs built after World War Two. Coming from a sober, God fearing home, I had my opportunities to ride these buses to and from Sunday school picnics. It almost made all that singing and praying worthwhile. As an aside, I am probably the only Welshman to be kicked out of a church choir for not being able to sing. A CVG6/6 has been preserved in Johannesburg’s James Hall Museum of Transport”.

Paul Haywood

10/11/11 – 17:12

A wonderful posting of a Cape Town City Daimler CVG6/6 at the James Hall Museum of Transport in Johannesburg. I visited this museum in October and noted the Daimler is now exhibited in the main hall so is more difficult to photograph but I did manage to get part of the Cape Town 1935 Ransomes/Weymann D4 trolleybus and a small part of this Daimler CVG6/6 which I have posted here for interest.

SA Trolley

I have found all the links most interesting and many thanks to Victor, Neville and Paul.

Richard Fieldhouse

11/11/11 – 13:15

Regarding 3 axle Daimlers, it is interesting to note that Leicester ordered a batch in 1939 to complement their fleet of Renowns. Unfortunately enemy action laid this order to rest, but what magnificent machines they would have been! Gardner 6LW engined COG6/6s
Perhaps the Capetown buses had the CD650 type of radiator to distinguish them from the front as 6 wheelers (?)

John Whitaker

Exeter Corporation – Daimler CVD6 – JFJ 873 – 173

Exeter City Transport - Daimler CVD6 - JFJ 873 - 173


Copyright both shots Ken Jones

Exeter Corporation
1950
Daimler CVD6
Weymann B35F

This Exeter City Daimler half cab is more than 60 years old, so even older than me, and is owned by John Handford and based near Solihull in the West Midlands. I’m fortunate to be able to navigate for John on this bus and he has taken it to the Kingsbridge 7ft 6in running day, events in Exeter and the trans Pennine run to name but a few. It has a genuine Exeter City destination blind and letters so in 2009 we took the bus to Exeter and met up with a former Exeter City conductor who worked on such buses and knew all the routes and stops.
Here are two of the pictures I took during the tour around the villages near Exeter. The first on the way back from Upton Pyne at the junction drivers would stop at if passengers wanted to get on or off. The second is crossing the narrow bridge near the village of Bramford Speke.
Visibility for navigating is not ideal, and communicating with John over the engine noise, it has an original Daimler engine, can be limited to reaching out to touch his left or right shoulder. A sister vehicle is preserved at Winkleigh and they were together for the Exeter Nocturnal event in 2011.
It’s a long trip from the West Midlands to Devon – some 6 hours – an endurance test for John as the driver but also for me as the passenger.
Nice vehicle though and full of character, you can sense all the ladies of the villages talking to each other about the latest news whilst they were travelling to and from the City with their groceries.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ken Jones


06/05/12 – 16:59

Thank you Ken… this has to be one of the best bus photographs that I’ve seen, and it evokes happy memories of times long past, not only working as a rural bus driver, but of a time when the pace of ordinary life was more moderate…

Norman Long


07/05/12 – 09:23

I agree completely Norman – at Samuel Ledgard’s we had four Exeter Corporation Daimler CVD6/Brush double deckers which had their own very special “atmosphere.”
JFJ 50/51/52/55 were superbly appointed dignified vehicles full of real “quality” and even sported fascinating offside rear corner chrome bumpers which gave a lovely “pre 1948” touch. Ledgard policy was to equip all second hand purchases with powerful “KL” box type heaters – two under the lower saloon seats and one under the front nearside seat upstairs. As is well known, the large Daimler engines tended to run very hot, and I can honestly say that even in the cruellest of Winter days I’ve known passengers to plead for the heaters to be turned down or off, so effective were they. What happy days those were – and I’m saying this without a pair of rose tinted glasses anywhere to be seen.

Chris Youhill


07/05/12 – 19:16

Next Saturday [14th May] there is an event in Coventry celebrating 100 years of CCT. Some 30 vintage buses will be at former Sandy Lane depot, where the reserve transport museum collection will be open. Some of these buses including JFJ 873 will be operating a shuttle service to the Transport Museum. There will also be a cavalcade of the buses including JFJ 873 at around 16.00

Ken


08/05/12 – 07:20

So, there’s an opportunity for someone in the Coventry area to bag a recording of a CVD6 for the Old Bus Sounds page – any takers?

Stephen Ford


08/05/12 – 07:26

Ken…I think you may have intended to say next Saturday May 12th. Just in case anybody gets mixed up and misses your day!

Richard Leaman


08/05/12 – 10:47

EFJ 666_lr
EFJ 666_rear_lr

Ken Jones might be interested in the attached pictures of Exeter’s EFJ 666, Leyland Tiger TS8 Cravens B32R. I took the photos at the Gloucester Steam Fair, South Cerney in 2011. This was new in 1938, no less, and was the oldest bus present on the day. It looked and sounded wonderful despite its years

Les Dickinson


08/05/12 – 12:10

Exeter 66 had a role in the film ‘Remains of the Day’ with some very evocative night shots as Emma Thompson boards the bus.

Chris Hough


09/05/12 – 08:04

Yes I meant Saturday May 12th – thanks for pointing out the error

Ken


09/05/12 – 08:05

Did the rear offside seats on any of these single-deckers extend to the very back of the bus, possible because the platform would be split into two steps. The earliest of LGOC/London Transport’s T’s did, until most, but not all, were modified to front entrance. One, T31, is preserved in original condition and, as a rear passenger, I would have felt very insecure, I feel, when going around a right-hand bend!

Chris Hebbron


05/09/12 – 08:42

Thanks for the wonderful old photo’s. I drove these buses also the Guys & the Leyland PD2’s from 1963 to when Exeter City Corporation merged with Devon General, best years of my life. Great to see these old friends being preserved so well. My uniform was donated to the Winkiegh Museum.

Tony Comley


11/09/12 – 05:30

JFJ 875_lr

By the time that the last edition of the West of England BBF came out around 1966, the existence of half-a-dozen half-cabs as the only single-deckers in the fleet of Exeter City Transport was already of sufficient curiosity to be remarked upon.
For several years during the ‘nineties, sister vehicle JFJ 875 (Exeter 175) was in the care of Carmel Coaches for operation on Dartmoor Rover summer Sunday service 174 between Okehampton and Moretonhampstead, seen at the latter on a rather damp 3rd August 1997. Unfortunately 175’s body wasn’t entirely Dartmoor-weatherproof by this time and a game of musical bus seats usually took place when the rain started.

Michael Wadman


Vehicle reminder shot for this posting


21/10/17 – 10:40

In reply to some 5 year old messages! When the Dartmoor Sunday service 174 started, for the first few years the vehicle and the crew were provided by WETC (i.e. Colin Shears). I travelled one Sunday when the bus was driven by Paul Tucker and the conductor was Colin’s son Dan. Something which just showed how things which one generation takes for granted is completely foreign to the next; Dan was born around 1974 and it was apparent that, growing up in Bideford, he had never set eyes on a bus conductor. When the bus came to a stop, Dan would stand at the top of the steps and collect the fares as the passengers boarded – just like an omo bus driver which is what he would have been familiar with. Anyone who went on the bus for a nostalgic trip where the conductor came round and collected the fares after you had sat down must have been a bit disappointed.
In reply to Chris Hebron’s question, the Exeter Leyland s/d’s of the 1930’s had open platforms at the rear. The whole layout is basically exactly as a normal double decker except that the offside of the platform on 66 and its sisters where the stairs would usually be, was occupied by some shelves for parcels. So far as I know, the JFJ Daimler s/ds were always front entrance.

Peter Cook


23/10/17 – 06:07

Thx, Peter.

Chris Hebbron

Bradford Corporation – Daimler CVG6 – EAK 232D – 232


Copyright Brendan Smith

Bradford Corporation
1966
Daimler CVG6LX/30
East Lancashire (Neepsend) H40/30F

Captured here waiting on Park Road, Bingley is Bradford CT 232, one of a batch of fifteen Daimler CVG6LX/30s supplied to the undertaking in the latter part of 1966. It is seen still wearing BCT’s attractive blue and cream livery, but has had its classic Bradford City Transport fleet name and coat of arms replaced by West Yorkshire PTE’s ‘Metro Bradford’ fleet name and PTE logo. (A ‘2’ prefix has also been added to the fleet number, denoting former Bradford ownership). They were very comfortable buses to ride in, and most handsome buses to look at, bearing a strong resemblance – particularly at the rear – to BCT’s forward-entrance re-bodied trolleybuses delivered a few years previously. Saltaire depot had an allocation of these fine machines, and they could often be seen on the 68 service from Bradford to Edwick/Dick Hudson’s, operated jointly with West Yorkshire Road Car. The Gardner 6LX engines fitted to the Daimlers would have been well-suited to the steady climb up to Gilstead and Eldwick.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Brendan Smith

17/09/12 – 07:18

All of this batch went new to Saltaire depot, but 234-40 were passed on to Ludlam Street when Saltaire received new Fleetlines 271-85, which was of course only a matter of months later. These latter, and the remaining CVG6s 226-33 constituted the principal complement of Saltaire’s vehicle allocation for several years, although I was surprised when, around 1970, there was also an East Lancs-bodied Regent III based there. While trolleybuses were still operative on service 40 to City via Thackley there were, I think, two trolleys also kept there overnight, outstationed from Thornbury depot. Does anyone know what effect the trolleybus abandonment had for Saltaire’s vehicle allocation?
The CVG6s were standard fare (pun intended) on route 68, indeed while they were around I don’t recall seeing anything else on BCT’s share of the service. Of course Eldwick didn’t need eight buses, so they also appeared on Manningham Lane services, although heavily outnumbered by Fleetlines. Thornbury depot also had a small presence on these routes, using Regent Vs.
In the early 1970s 234-40 moved on from Ludlam Street depot to Horton Bank Top, where they replaced Regent IIIs.

I can’t vouch for when these actually arrived, but I think only two had entered service by the end of 1966, the rest doing so early in 1967.

I’ve just had a look at my copy of the Stanley King book, and he quotes entries into service of between August and November 1966 – a bit at variance with my recollection, and the vehicles he quotes as the first two in service are not quite the same two I would have said. Still, I’ll stand corrected on this point if necessary.

David Call

17/09/12 – 07:19

I think, Brendan, that these 15 buses were “la creme de la creme” with regard to Bradford`s later fleet, and I travelled on them quite regularly when they were quite new. I also travelled (more often) on the 15 contemporary PD3s with identical bodies, which appeared on my “80” route.
The Daimlers, in particular, just oozed quality, and the sound of the Gardner engine, after so many screaming Regent Vs was a pure delight.
I do remember though, that some Bradford staff were not too happy with the Neepsend bodies, which did not seem as structurally sound as the Blackburn East Lancs version. They looked a lot better though, with the full original Bradford insignia!

John Whitaker

17/09/12 – 07:20

This batch of buses only 8 years old at the formation of the PTE never received PTE livery and remained blue and cream all their lives When quite new they were often seen on the former Ledgard Leeds-Pudsey-Bradford route and were a really nice bus to ride on.

Chris Hough

These vehicles were superb. 226-33 were allocated to Saltaire Depot from new and I remember them appearing on the service to Eldwick in the autumn of 1966. I travelled on them regularly to school. Later when I worked in the Traffic Office of BCT in Forster Square we worked alternate Saturdays and I’d travel on the 07:35 hours journey from Eldwick, which was a BCT Daimler CVG working.
Later still I was a member of a small group of staff that on Monday nights used to frequent the BCT Social Club in Sunbridge Road. The bus stops outside the Club were for services 15 and 16 – West Bowling and Allerton. The bus to Eldwick stopped some distance away in John Street. The last bus from Bradford (Chester Street) to Eldwick left at 10.20pm and I used to ring the Chief Inspector’s Office at Forster Square at about 10.10pm to say that I was “ready for home”. I’d make my way the best I could to the stop for the Allerton service just outside the Club and I’d then be joined by one of the Duty Inspectors. When the Daimler CVG came round the corner from Godwin Street into Sunbridge Road the Inspector would step purposefully into the road and stop the bus for me so that I could get on it. He’d then tell the conductor: “Make sure that he gets off at Eldwick Post Office.”
Ah, happy days, or should that be daze?

Kevin Hey

18/09/12 – 07:25

Huddersfield had a contemporary batch of sixteen CVG6LX-30s, 457-472 (HVH 457-472D). Half were bodied by East Lancs at Blackburn the other half by Neepsend. They became due for initial recertification shortly after I arrived at Huddersfield. I don’t recall that the Neepsend bodies were any worse at that stage than the Blackburn built examples. I do recall that one body type all suffered from body framing fractures above the entrance doors (Neepsend I think) whilst the other all had frame fractures on the staircase side. Some of this batch were particularly hard worked being 2 way radio fitted and hence allocated to the longest duties. Yes, the dulcet tones of these Daimlers were a vast improvement on the raucous cacophony from the eight forward entrance Regent Vs which were disliked by the crews.

Ian Wild

19/09/12 – 07:16

Huddersfield also had an earlier batch, 435-440, CCX 435-440B. There were detail differences in this earlier batch, from memory, mainly colour and layout of the staircase/luggage area.

Eric Bawden

Yeomans of Canon Pyon – Daimler CVA6 – FVJ 363 – 70

 
Copyright Routeman/Pete

Yeomans of Canon Pyon, Hereford
1948
Daimler CVA6
Welsh Metal Industries L57RD

Here’s a piece of personal history. Chrome-radiatored 1948 Daimler CVA6, with a stylish Welsh Metal Industries L57RD body. No. 70 was operated from new, lasting in service from December 1948 to December 1957. One of a pair, the other one was No. 71 (FVJ 364), which I never saw. Looking fairly new, but near the end of its life, it’s outside RAF Creden Hill, Hereford, where I was stationed for three months in mid-1956. Note the tree damage to the front dome. You can see the shiny pre-selective gear lever below the steering wheel. It had no gate, merely sliding forwards/backwards, gears indicated as RN1234, like the maker’s cars of the day. Having grown up in Daimlerland, South-West London, I was entirely at home re-living old memories on the varied Yeomans Daimler CW/CV fleet, which included some austerity models.
Yeomans still exist, for a while named Yeomans Canyon Travel and now simply Yeoman’s Travel. They gave up their stage services a long time ago. As for the bodybuilders: Welsh Metal Industries, of Caerphilly, was created for aircraft production purposes during WWII, but, once peacetime came, there was a need to produce something else. Like some other former aircraft manufacturers, they turned to bus bodywork and did good trade for a while, so desperate was the need for new vehicles. Building on past experience, the WMI body was radically different in its substantial use of aluminium, resulting in a very light structure. The bodies, however, were somewhat fragile, with horror stories of windows falling out and beading strips flapping around in the breeze! I don’t recall any creaks or groans with this one, but perhaps the body had been completely rebuilt by then.
Note the large number of obtrusive rivets/screws!

Photograph and Copy contributed by Chris Hebbron

A full list of Daimler codes can be seen here.


25/11/12 – 08:29

That front dome – damaged or not – reminds me of Northern Counties or Weymann styling. What livery did the operator use in those days?

Pete Davies


25/11/12 – 11:18

Dark Green and Cream, Pete.

Chris Hebbron


25/11/12 – 16:35

Thanks, Chris.

Pete Davies


26/11/12 – 08:48

The seating capacity seems rather high for a 1948 lowbridge decker. Most, of that period seem to have been L53R. I wonder if there was an additional row on the top deck or if a couple more pairs had been fitted on the lower deck. There couldn’t have been much legroom wherever they were squeezed in!

Chris Barker


26/11/12 – 08:49

Far from having “given up their stage services long ago” Yeomans Travel (note: Yeomans not “Yeoman’s” (the family name is “Yeomans”) the company still runs a wide range of local bus services based on Hereford and with its associated Leominster-based Lugg Valley Travel is the biggest LBS operator in Herefordshire.

Jim Davies


26/11/12 – 13:48

I was wondering about the seating. I have been trying to work out if the cab has been shortened to increase seating. It seems to require an athletic user, anyway: possibly the door is open, like the window vents for a hot day. The step seems to start well up: the driver seems to have this big upward step and then an unassisted leap forwards and upwards. There seems nothing to assist him. Do some have more of a panel behind the door? If you push the driver forward, then can you push the upstairs front bench seat forward too? Perhaps in that rural part of the world, they employed ex jockeys to drive?

Joe


19/02/18 – 07:02

Well, I was at RAF Credenhill in 1956 from April to late June, too and regularly travelled on Yeoman’s buses. I actually took a not wonderful picture of the Daimler CVD some three years earlier, never dreaming I would be posted there.

Michael Baker


21/02/18 – 06:56

Jim Davis’s point regarding the family name of ‘Yeomans’ brings me to ask about something that has puzzled me for quite a long time.
Why was it that the more modern day company name comprised the name ‘Canyon’ when the village where the company originated had the spelling ‘Canon’ (as in Canon Pyon)?

David Slater


21/02/18 – 15:32

Perhaps because “Canyon Travel” has a more attractive name when the company dealt with holiday tours! The 1881 census shows a Henry Yeomans family living in Canon Pyon in 1881,, so they had some history in the village.
The Omnibus Society has photos of an eclectic mix of their vehicles, including a Leyland Titanic, Sentinel and double-deck AEC ‘Q’s’. I know that the Ministry of War Transport gathered a lot of the Q’s from operators who had bought single ones of this type. They were possibly the largest operator of the type at one time. See HERE: //theomnibussociety.

Chris Hebbron


21/02/18 – 15:33

I should have mentioned that they also operated a wartime Bedford OY 3-tonner lorry with a bus body on it behind the cab! Very rare! There is a photo of it on the OS site.

Chris Hebbron


22/02/18 – 06:03

Way back when, Chris B and Joe were puzzled about the seating. Bus Lists On The Web has this bus as L30/26RD. Leaving aside the discrepancy of one, this reveals that the extra seating is in the upper deck.
Welsh Metal Industries didn’t only build complete bus bodies but also components for bus bodies, notably for Beadle. WMI being part of the same group as Sentinel resulted in the latter using Beadle body designs and patents in order to utilise WMI components.

Peter Williamson

Salford City Transport – Daimler CVG6 – CRJ 417 – 417

Copyright Peter Williamson

Salford City Transport
1950
Daimler CVG6
Metro-Cammell H28/26R

Between 1950 and 1952 Salford City Transport placed in service 195 Daimler CVG6 double deckers with Metro-Cammell Phoenix bodies, all featuring Birmingham-style straight staircases and traditional polished wood interior window frames. Apart from another 15 CVG6s with Burlingham bodies purchased at the same time (a mixture of single and double deckers and a committee coach), there were no further additions to the fleet until 1962. For ten years, therefore, the Phoenixes acted as the backbone of the fleet, and outside the rush hour they would most likely be the only Salford buses to be seen by a casual visitor to the city. To me, they – and the spirited manner in which they were usually driven – were the very essence of Salford.
Here 417, dating from 1950, is seen in Victoria Bus Station in 1968, by the end of which there were still almost 70 survivors, the last 48 being passed on to SELNEC the following year.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Peter Williamson

A full list of Daimler codes can be seen here.


19/02/13 – 15:27

Victoria bus station shown here was in Salford but long-distance services terminating there showed “Manchester” as their destination!
The only local destination which Salford City Transport buses could not show was “Salford”.

Geoff Kerr


19/02/13 – 16:01

Charles Baroth’s tweaking of the Phoenix design (straight staircase, destination screen winder assembly, and the fairing on the nearside front mudguard – not to mention the shortened radiator) made the two Salford batches distinctly different to the two batches of Daimlers with Phoenix bodies delivered to Manchester during the same period.
Whilst not looking as smart as the original scheme of green with three cream bands, black wheels and silver roof, the vehicle in the picture belies its age, especially as it is one of the first batch.
The second Salford batch was delivered in 1951 and should have been registered in then FBA series of Salford registrations but Charles Baroth persuaded the Salford City Police, who issued registration marks at the time, to issue FRJ some months early so all the vehicles he ordered would have RJ sequence marks.
The last six of the type delivered to Salford FRJ 555-FRJ 560 (555-560) were fitted with heaters and were much pursued by the enthusiast fraternity as for the first nine years of their lives they operated almost solely on all night services, retreating to the depot as the sun appeared.
Both Salford and Manchester passed substantial numbers of these vehicles to SELNEC. Given the constant all day, daily use to which both authorities put these vehicles for almost all their lives, it says a great deal about the workmanship that went into manufacture of the chassis and bodies and the standards of maintenance carried out by their owners.
When SELNEC eventually withdrew the remaining vehicles a bit of the post war character of the twin cities went with them.

Phil Blinkhorn


19/02/13 – 16:03

Having suffered these buses on the joint service 95/96 for many years I certainly wouldn’t be able to describe the way they were driven as ‘spirited. Salfords Daimlers were the slowest buses on Kingsway, Manchester by far, even slower than Birchfield Rd’s Crossleys. I well remember the groans that went up at my bus stop on Kingsway when one of these appeared over the crest of the hill at East Didsbury.

Orla Nutting


19/02/13 – 18:14

I wonder if the slow performance of the Salford Daimlers on Kingsway was down to the Salford crews “pushing” Manchester vehicles in front on the same or similar routes, i.e. allowing the Manchester crews to pick up the bulk of the passengers thus lessening the workload for the Salford men as they would have few if any passengers to pick up after the first few stops.
“Pushing” was a common practice where routes were jointly operated, some crews becoming adept at the practice. As long as the joint operation was on an equal shared income basis the practice, though officially frowned on, did not work to the financial detriment of the employers of the “lazy” crew.
Another trick was to load the bus at the first few stops so that the three bells code was given and, in rush hours, the crews would have an easy time with few stops, few fares to collect after the first trip around the bus and they could still dawdle as they had to keep to timings, yet could legitimately drive in a stately fashion past lines waiting for a bus with room.

Phil Blinkhorn


20/02/13 – 06:12

These Daimlers look decidedly odd with their short radiators, something I never was aware of until today. I used to think that LT’s STL’s looked smart, until I saw photos of some ‘unfrozen’ ones that had been given AEC’s longer radiator, which incorporated the number plate, as were the immediate pre-war Green Line T’s. Long radiators rule!

Chris Hebbron


20/02/13 – 13:35

With regard to Geoff’s comment about destination displays, Salford does not have a city centre.
Therefore if a bus in Bolton had shown Salford as its destination, where would it be going? The reason for the location of Victoria Bus Station (and the Greengate terminus across the road, where most of the longer distance services went from) was to get passengers to Manchester without the buses themselves having to cross the boundary.
Contrast this with a Manchester bus on the far side of Stockport showing “Piccadilly”. You had to know it was a Manchester bus to know it was going to Manchester. I think the worst example of this I ever came across was much more recently, when I saw a GM Buses North vehicle somewhere between Bury and Ramsbottom showing “Arndale” (Arndale being the name of a Manchester bus station at that time, never mind the fact that there were Arndale shopping centres in other locations as well).

Peter Williamson


20/02/13 – 15:39

The city of Manchester, unlike many other cities, was surrounded by a large number of historically older authorities (the Hundred of Salford outdates Manchester as an area of local government by 900 or so years and once incorporated the whole of Manchester) and these have always fought against being subsumed into what became the leading industrial, financial and legislative authority in the area whilst in many ways being dependant on the city for the provision of regionally useful services and places of employment.
This has led to a number of oddities with regard to transport. The Salford use of Manchester on destination screens for Salford buses terminating at Victoria Bus station (ditto Leigh, Bolton and LUT vehicles using the adjacent Greengate as a terminus)has already been mentioned, though this was officially restricted to Salford routes originating outside of Salford. Salford buses operating from within their city boundaries displayed Victoria, in itself totally misleading and an oddity the bus station so named was closer to Exchange Station than Manchester Victoria Station.
Salford thus capitalised on the proximity of the boundary formed by the River Irwell to Manchester’s city centre, a centre being something Salford didn’t possess.
Then there was the case of Manchester Docks. The nine docks of the Port of Manchester at the eastern end of the ship canal were basically in Salford and Stretford, only one dock being within the Manchester city boundary. Salford buses bound for the dock gates in Salford neither recognised the Manchester part of the title, nor tried to claim the docks for their city, stubbornly just showing DOCKS in block capitals as a destination.
Salford buses heading for the inner areas of Trafford Park, which was in Stretford, would display the destination as a road name, such as Tenax Rd, whereas Manchester would display both Trafford Park and the point in the Park to which they were going.
There was little love lost between the Frederick Rd Salford and Piccadilly Manchester head offices. Charles Baroth taking over a run down fleet promptly changed the livery from a very Manchester like red and white to the dark green and cream and changed the name of the department displayed on the buses from Salford Corporation to Salford City Transport – making a very definite point. He and Manchester’s Albert Neal never really seemed to get along – an antipathy that lasted from the mid 1940s to the early 1960s.
Slightly before Salford changed to the green livery, Bury changed from vermillion and cream to a light green and cream. This led to a story about the stranger heading for Patricroft, an area on the western edge of Salford’s territory, who had been correctly directed to Victoria Bus Station and told to take the Peel Green bus. Approaching the bus station from the Cathedral end where the street is above the roof level of the buses on the stands and seeing only red and white buses, he asked a woman on the street where he could get a peel green bus. The woman had noticed the green Bury bus which left from Cannon Street and and with apple peel in mind directed the stranger on a five minute walk to a bus heading nine miles at 90 degrees from the direction the stranger needed to take.

Phil Blinkhorn


20/02/13 – 18:00

I can just remember seeing these near Salford perhaps in the late 60’s: they looked – then- wonderfully vintage in their heritage green livery, a bit like the old WY-York Bible board buses in York.
Presumably the radiators look a bit forward (not only short!) because of the Gardner engine- I don’t recall seeing exposed radiator CVGs as opposed to CVDs: did they have “Daimler” preselectors?

Joe


21/02/13 – 06:28

The Salford crews weren’t pushing the Manchester crews. The 95/96 operations consisted of about an hour of Salford running followed by around the same amount of time by Manchester running throughout the day. Salford running from East Didsbury began about 9 a.m.on a broadly 10 minute headway.
There was no was route to push other than the 40 and for the most part that wasn’t taking the same passengers unless they were going to alight on Kingsway.
The situation altered completely when the Salford front entrance PD2/40’s were introduced in the mid ’60’s. Now they were lively performers and completely outclassed Birchfield’s CVG6’s for speed on the route.

Orla Nutting

Sorry about that Orla


21/02/13 – 06:29

Joe, Manchester had 90 very similar vehicles, all with long radiators and all CVG6s. They also had 100 CVG5s again with exposed long radiators. All the Manchester vehicles had preselector gearboxes as did the Salford vehicles.
Previously Salford had taken 8 CVD6s, again with short radiators and preselector gearboxes.
The shortened radiator had an advantage in as much as the lower part was purely cosmetic and, according to Baroth, suffered from damage so, a double saving was made in terms of new and replacement costs.

Phil Blinkhorn


21/02/13 – 06:30

Joe: I can’t say I’ve ever noticed the radiators on CVG6s being further forward than on other Daimlers, but I suppose it’s possible, as the 6LW was longer than other engines. There are lots of exposed-radiator Daimlers to look at here sct61.org.uk/index/chassis/dv .
Yes, they did have Daimler preselectors, with a quadrant selector under the steering wheel, just like Daimler cars.

Peter Williamson


21/02/13 – 06:31

I have distinct memories of seeing Bury buses in Bolton, on the 52 and 23T, but only vague memories of Salford buses there, as Phil B mentions above. Was that the 8?

Pete Davies


21/02/13 – 06:32

Joe – These Salford Daimlers had preselector gearboxes. I understand the short radiators were used to minimise damage to the bottom part of the radiator grill.

Michael Elliott


21/02/13 – 06:33

Have you noticed how many English cities seem to go in pairs?
Manchester – Salford
Liverpool – Birkenhead
Newcastle – Gateshead
Birmingham – Wolverhampton
Leeds – Bradford
Gloucester – Cheltenham
Southampton – Portsmouth

Jim Hepburn


21/02/13 – 08:45

Pete, Salford had two routes to Bolton. The 8 and the 12, the latter taking a circuitous route via Daubhill, Little Hulton, Walkden, Roe Green and Worsley taking a scheduled 55minutes against the rather tightly timed 38 minutes of the more direct 8.

Phil Blinkhorn


21/02/13 – 08:45

Jim, an interesting comment. I can’t answer for the other places, but the only pairings that most folk in Southampton and Portsmouth would acknowledge are that they are both in the geographical (but not administrative) county of Hampshire, and that they have the same bus company (Worst).
On the sporting front, it doesn’t happen now because they are in different leagues, but the “South Coast Derby” between the two always required an even heavier Police presence than most other matches. It’s as bad as Rangers and Celtic!

Pete Davies


21/02/13 – 11:14

Orla, you have more knowledge of the 95/96 workings than I but something must have been going on as, from a very limited personal use of the Salford CVG6s (a number of trips on the tightly timed #8 to Bolton and back and one trip to and from Warrington on the #10) I recall they were smooth, reasonably quick and in places gave a fair turn of speed.
At one period I used to have to use the Manchester versions on the #47/48 and they could certainly motor.

Phil Blinkhorn


21/02/13 – 11:15

Easter 1957 a school pal and I travelled from Reading to Grimsby and back via Salford, all on service buses.
Quite apart from the fascinating stuff we saw and rode on the way up, across and back down again, the Stockport and Manchester Crossleys made a great impression, and so did the great variety of operators working into Manchester, but I remember being especially taken by those lovely Salford Daimlers with their straight staircases, destination-winder trunnions and the no-nonsense, upright Metro-Cammell bodies. They also seemed to get a move on, but I didn’t like the way at least one of the drivers let the gear pedal smartly up between changes, without any adjustment of engine revs, resulting in a bang and a jerk. To have lasted so long with such rough treatment these wonderfully characterful vehicles must have been as solidly-built as they looked–or were the fitters kept busy?

Ian Thompson


21/02/13 – 11:17

Thanks Peter: I can spend many a happy hour now trying to work out the relationship between CVD/G/A’s , their radiators and the front dumb irons. Was it the body builders’ variable fronts, or did Daimler provide a deeper radiator tank cover to bridge the G gap. I bet someone knows! In the meantime, I’ll keep puzzling.

Joe


21/02/13 – 16:00

Interesting comments about destinations and cross-boundary rivalry. I read that Salford always put their newest buses on the 15, which ran to Piccadilly, to impress their neighbours “across the river”.
When I worked for GMPTE a few years ago, buses were using Exchange Bus Station, which was on the site of the old Victoria Bus Station (of course by then Exchange railway station was long gone).
This has now been superseded by Shudehill Bus Station, which is actually in Manchester, and the whole area around Victoria Bridge Street is being redeveloped. And yes, I agree about “Arndale”!

Geoff Kerr


22/02/13 – 06:23

I drove for Salford from 1966 to 1968, primarily on the 95/96 route to East Didsbury from Whitefield always with the Daimler pre select, they took some getting used to and, they were abused by a lot of drivers throwing standing passengers backward through their violent gear change.
On the radiator subject I only ever remember the radiator was far forward and was informed at the time it was because of the longer engine.
My first encounter with the forward entrance Leylands was on the 73 from Whitefield to Victoria, a pleasure to drive.

David J Henighan


22/02/13 – 06:24

Ian Thompson, you’ve let yourself in for it now! Your epic trip from Reading to Grimsby via Salford sounds worthy of an article, describing route, rolling stock and how long it took! Might we be hearing from you shortly? Pleaaaaase ?

Stephen Ford


22/02/13 – 09:49

David, I’m rather amazed by your remarks re driving the Daimlers. Now, first off, I’ll acknowledge I have never driven a Daimler preselect bus but I have driven preselectors on other vehicles and also, during the last 48 years, a vast range of different gear boxes, rarely with any problem.
Given that the Daimlers had not only been in the fleet for 16 years by the time you started but for the majority of those years had been the bulk of the fleet and given newer Daimlers with preselector boxes had entered the fleet in the early 1960s, I have to ask where the fault lay – bad maintenance or poor driver training after the departure of Charles Baroth?

Phil Blinkhorn


22/02/13 – 10:16

Stephen: the brains behind the Reading-Grimsby trip was Chris Bates, who planned it all to a tee and took plenty of photographs. We stayed with his relatives in Nuneaton, Hazel Grove and Grimsby, without whose kindness we couldn’t have done it. Chris repeated the trip in 1958 with Graham Low (who’s taken thousands of bus photos since the mid fifties) and that trip made the subject of an excellent presentation they gave at an Oxford enthusiasts’ society meeting. I’ll suggest to them that we do a joint article.
Delights that especially stick in my mind included the Coventry and Leicester fleets, including the Leicester 6-wheel Renown; SONs and FEDDs with Midland Red and Trent; the stone-walled Derbyshire countryside; North Western’s then fairly new Atkinson Alphas; the staggering variety of municipalities and companies that shared territory in Lancashire and Yorkshire; at Grimsby an AEC Q and mid-thirties AEC Regents rebodied with earlier piano-front centre-entrance bodies; the Cleethorpes trolleybuses; sedate progress through the flat lands of Lincolnshire in a grunting Bristol SC4LK…
Thanks for the idea: I’ll see what we can come up with!

Ian Thompson


22/02/13 – 14:06

The radiator on this one doesn’t look like a Daimler radiator at all, although I’m sure it is but there appears to be a badge on the top which I’ve never seen on a Daimler fluted radiator before. I agree it appears to be thicker too, although I don’t see why it should be, other operators specified the Gardner 6LW which was accommodated without difficulty, notably SHMD, although I wonder if in some cases, the bonnet and radiator were moved forward, whereas in others, the bulkhead was moved backwards.

Chris Barker


22/02/13 – 14:51

Charles Baroth had all manufacturers’ badges removed from all makes and replaced by a standard badge which had a green background and Salford City Transport in cream.
There was no difference in the bonnet/radiator length between the Salford Phoenix bodied CVGG6s and those supplied to Manchester.

Phil Blinkhorn


23/02/13 – 07:53

The Manchester Phoenixes had their engines derated to 100bhp at 1650rpm. From my experience of the Salford ones I would imagine them to be the full 112 at 1700.
I know exactly what David means about violent gear changes, and it wasn’t a fault with the vehicles or necessarily driver training. No matter what training you give a driver, if he wants to ignore it he will. I used the Manchester Phoenixes regularly in the rush hour, and it did seem as if some drivers took delight in seeing how many standing passengers they could catapult on to the platform when changing from first to second! This was something probably unique to the combination of 6LW engine and spring-operated gearbox, since AEC Regent IIIs had air-operated gearboxes, and other engines packed less of a punch at low revs.

Peter Williamson


23/02/13 – 10:35

Salford’s engines were left at their original rating whereas Manchester’s were originally derated to 91.5bhp being partially uprated to 100bhp with the K upgrade in 1953 which amplifies the oddity of Orla’s experience on the 95/96.

Peter Williamsons’s comments on the spring v air operated preselector boxes begs a question – from 1949 Manchester’s orders were split between Leyland and Daimler, Salford had a preponderance of Daimlers. There will always be “rogue” drivers but with large numbers of Daimlers operating in the area was the misuse of the gear change system widespread? If it was there surely would have been complaints to the Manchester Evening News Postbag – always a barometer of public opinion – and the MEN was no friend of either transport department, always willing to “have a go”, but I can’t remember seeing any reaction in its pages until complaints about snatched changes when the Atlanteans started work for MCTD from Sharston depot.

Phil Blinkhorn


26/02/13 – 05:46

I’ve noted the comments on ‘rough’ gear changes with preselector transmissions. I’ve driven both air operated and spring operated preselectors and there is still a need to match road and engine speed when making gear changes to ensure a smooth change. Admittedly preselectors, and semi automatics for that matter, are more accommodating in this respect, hence a ‘jerky’ change, than a ‘crash’ gearbox where a mismatching of engine and road speed results in a nasty noise from the gearbox. With a synchromesh gearbox there is still a need to match engine and road speed to ensure a smooth change and a mismatching results in a rough change such as can happen with a change down from, say, third to second without making sure that the road speed is right for such a change.

Michael Elliott


26/02/13 – 08:27

With reference to the above comment about MCTD’s Atlanteans (the inference being these were MCTD’s first) entering service from Northenden depot (which, of course, was actually at Sharston) I am sure I have seen another reference to this elsewhere on this forum, the suggestion being that Northendsen was chosen as the Atlanteans’ first depot since, Northenden being renowned for being the most militant depot, if the Atlanteans were accepted there they would be accepted anywhere.
It is my recollection that it was reported in ‘Buses Illustrated’ at the time that the Atlanteans had entered service on route 50 (in those days, Albert Square to East Didsbury) operating from Birchfields Road depot – which route 50 passed. Is this not correct?

David Call


26/02/13 – 10:10

The Atlanteans aka the ‘Red Dragons’ as the Manchester Evening News named them, were first employed from the Northenden garage on route 101, the limited stop service from Greenbrow Rd, Wythenshawe to Piccadilly. Their introduction there was delayed by several months until the unions were pacified. At the time, as a schoolboy in Manchester we were very jealous of the lads who used this service on these ultra modern buses as we then saw them whilst we had to content ourselves with ancient looking Crossleys (how times change).
Imagine my delight when, shortly afterwards, they were employed on the, local to me, route 40 (it didn’t become the 50 until the Wilmslow Rd corridor renumbering farce of January 1968) though I don’t recall them being fielded by Birchfields Rd garage (primarily a Crossley and Daimler depot then) but rather by Parrs Wood garage (the Leyland depot) at their East Didsbury terminus.

Orla Nutting


26/02/13 – 10:11

The situation regarding the introduction of the MCTD Atlanteans was as follows:
The Princess Rd corridor serving the various estates which made up the Wythenshawe overspill – at the time the largest local authority housing development in Europe – was MCTD’s most intense operation in the late 1950s.
In mid 1957 the Transport Committee approved an order for 110 PD2s with the revised Orion bodywork that MCW and MCTD had been working on for around 2 years. Leyland made much of the order in its advertising, particularly as there was no balancing order for Daimlers. All but 10 of the vehicles were delivered in the financial year 1958/9. The order for the remaining 10 was changed to Atlanteans with MCW bodies with the intention of running them on the Wythenshawe routes to assess the value of the extra capacity and the reduction in loading times given the driver could control the platform and doors.
When the order was announced the union asked for negotiations regarding the extra capacity and the extra responsibilities of the driver. As it was Sharston was the most militant depot so the adding of the vehicles to its stock in November and December 1959 in the absence of an agreement precipitated an official dispute. No drivers would touch the vehicles so their rare appearance on the roads of south Manchester was in the hands of inspectors or members of the engineering staff. I made a number of visits to the depot at the time and was able to have a good look around them (inside and out) due to the generosity of the foreman.
It took until April 1960 to conclude negotiations leading to an agreement covering all types of large capacity vehicles across the Department.
In April 1960 the 10 Atlanteans commenced work on the 101 from Piccadilly to Newall Green. Over the following months they were used on other Princess Rd services and also the 50 which in those days was the route number of the Piccadilly to Brooklands via Northenden service.
In 1961 they all moved to Parrs Wood and were used on the 40 Albert Sq to Parrs Wood. In 1963 they moved to Queens Rd. They were not stabled at Birchfields though they did visit the depot in 1966/7 when the BUT/Burlingham trolleybuses were withdrawn to have their uncomfortable low backed seats replaced by those from the trollies.

Phil Blinkhorn


26/02/13 – 13:35

Rough gear changing with any type of gearbox is almost invariably down to driver attitude rather than mechanical deficiency. Only when facing uphill is it necessary to start in first gear; second gear is entirely capable of level starts with quality buses. With crash/constant mesh gearboxes, it repays the driver to try to double declutch properly to make sensible progress, and voluble protests from such gearboxes are a testament to driver incompetence. With preselectors (and later with semi automatics) lazy drivers would keep the right foot down on the accelerator whilst operating the gear change pedal (or gear selector). The result With preselectors was a violent jolt to the transmission. Semi automatics would give a less severe jerk, but the fluid coupling would suffer eventually from having to absorb, totally unnecessarily, the forces of such abuse. When fully automatic transmissions began to appear, these initially incorporated extra buttons/selector positions that allowed the driver to hold intermediate gears, but misuse by a minority has now rendered this feature to history with most modern buses. Nowadays, the driver has no direct control over the gearbox in the majority of present day large passenger vehicles.

Roger Cox


26/02/13 – 15:24

Oh how I agree with you, Roger. The thing that annoys me most with modern coaches is that little notice which reminds me “ALWAYS” start in first gear. In my lessons I was taught to start in second and only use first for uphill starts or when heavily laden, and start in third when going downhill. All these I did on test and was duly passed! Are modern coaches, including Setras and Volvos, quite so bad that they must ALWAYS be started in first gear? [Mind you, I am constantly surprised when, at the end of a job, passengers on the way out commend me for having given them a nice, or a smooth, drive. What on earth do all the other drivers do?]

David Oldfield


27/02/13 – 05:56

I passed my test on vehicle with a crash box ‘1952 Weymann bodied Guy Arab III’ the instructor taught us how to go through the box from bottom to top and back down again, only using the clutch to pull away and come to a halt. When it came to semi auto, we were told to treat it the same way you would if it had a clutch, i.e. lift your foot, pause in neutral and give it a few revs if changing down. Driven properly a manual or semi auto box will ALWAYS give a better ride than an automatic, plus drivers are equipped with MKI eyeball which can give advanced warning of gear changes which no sensor ever can

Ronnie Hoye


27/02/13 – 05:58

If you were the individual who had to change a clutch due to drivers not using all the gears provided, at your own expense, I’m sure you’d be a bit more canny about your second gear setoffs.
Driving schools do have their own agendas, and perhaps taught drivers to make fewer gearchanges so that the potential for getting them wrong was reduced. Bear in mind also that vehicles generally were lower powered than they are today, had fewer gears, had a relatively low top speed, and had components that were generally over-engineered. While 2nd or even 3rd gear setoffs are clearly possible it is neither best practice nor mechanically sympathetic.
For example a Leyland PS2/PD2 could have had a choice of three rear axle ratios which, with a standard O.600 engine and four speed gearbox, could have a top speed of approx 30, 40 or 50 mph. I look after two such vehicles capable of either 40 or 50 – should any driver be seen setting off in 2nd gear in either, they would not be driving very far !
I took my test in the faster vehicle and was expected to use all gears both up and down the box.
In the past there wasn’t a minimum speed limit for a test vehicle and I know of vehicles being fitted with low speed diffs so that trainees would only need to use the top three gears – if the top two had synchromesh, how easy would they be to use. But then consider this, having passed their test in a double decker with a top speed of 30mph they could then jump in a six wheel Neoplan Skyliner and head off down the motorway to Spain. Don’t laugh, it happened regularly in Leeds in the eighties. Where was the sense in that ?
When riding in preserved vehicles of the types that feature heavily on this site it makes me cringe when novice drivers are let loose with the general public on board happily crunching gears, coasting in neutral around tightening bends, roundabouts etc, staying in top gear while descending hills etc.
We should be campaigning for quality and competence and then the vehicles we all enjoy will continue getting out & about and not lie broken in the corners of sheds or, worse still, get consigned to the breakers yards.

MikeB


28/02/13 – 05:52

In response to the above, of course you were expected to use all the gears on test. So was I, and, also, I had to show that I could bring a bus to a halt using all the gears in succession, but no brakes, in the event of brake failure. It wasn’t expected that this should be the stopping practice in normal service, though. Pulling away in a bus with clutch and conventional gearbox is entirely possible in second gear without undue clutch slip. One can feel the clutch engaging almost immediately at very low revs, and release the pedal accordingly. In many gearboxes, the first gear was a crawler, and if the bus was started in that gear, by the time that the revs had died and double declutching had taken place, the vehicle would have come to a virtual standstill. On the AEC Reliance with five speed synchromesh box, first gear could be engaged only by lifting the gearstick over a protective “ledge”. Changing down from second whilst on the move would have been impossible without removing both hands from the steering wheel. I am satisfied that the designer regarded first as a crawler only, and did not expect first to be used for moving away in normal service. Of course, clutch abuse took place in every bus fleet with conventional transmissions – we have shown above that every fleet has its rogues – but second gear starts, properly effected, would not, in themselves, have caused greater clutch wear. No doubt your view may well have been shared by some fleet engineers, but, in 43 years in the bus industry, in various roles up to management level, during which I drove a great many vehicle types, I did not hear that opinion expressed by an engineer in the undertakings that I worked for.

Roger Cox


28/02/13 – 08:03

Thank you, Roger.

David Oldfield


28/02/13 – 11:07

I’ve only driven buses under L plates or around large depot yards but I have 48 years driving experience around the world in a wide range of cars and vans/trucks up to 7.5 tonnes amassing almost 1.5 million miles in that time.
I was taught to drive by a police instructor and a bus driver who was also an instructor for his employer. They taught me that driving was both an art and a science, an appreciation sadly lacking in many of today’s motorists and so called “professional” drivers.
I was taught that correct use of the gear box and planning gear changes was paramount, especially with the 3 speed gear box – no synchro on 1st – in the upright Ford Popular I owned and learned to drive on.
Even before I learned to drive, when talking to bus drivers, it became apparent that taking off in 2nd was normal practice as the gearing and axle ratios were such that 1st was for use only on hills or when fully loaded. From the very limited driving experience I have on crash and synchro geared buses (PD2, Bedford VAM, Royal Tiger and Leopard) I was always told to start in 2nd. I once did a day’s familiarisation/assessment course in the early 1990s with a driver training school when I considered obtaining a licence to do weekend coach driving, an aspiration abandoned when my business picked up, and 2nd gear starts were advocated as the norm though the times when 1st should be used and when to use 1st on the test were outlined.
Driving today’s automatics is a doddle though collecting fares, dealing with queries and handling the public whilst safely conducting the vehicle through today’s traffic certainly isn’t. I would assume that, just as I only drive automatics when in the USA as they take some of the fun and skill out of driving, a certain amount of skill has been lost as the automatic box has taken over to balance the increased workload on the bus driver and when those boxes come into the workshop needing attention they are far more complex and expensive to repair than a clutch or a broken crash box.

Phil Blinkhorn


28/02/13 – 11:08

That’s an interesting observation about first gear, Roger. In cars of the middling yesteryear first gear often had no synchromesh and was harder to engage: my Mother always set off in second. Early Austin Westminsters only had three forward gears and I think any one would do. Bristol K’s- possibly 6A’s would rev furiously on the level for little result in first and clearly wanted to start in second.

Joe


01/03/13 – 05:55

Irrespective of how an individual might have been instructed to drive and by whom I for one cannot accept why any bus loving enthusiast would want to inflict upon any surviving classic bus of any make treatment which if even executed with care and consideration could help to shorten its already extended life.
Is it not incumbent of any genuine enthusiast preservationist to extend the working life of our current public transport heritage by treating it in a caring and considerate manner?
Consideration for me would mean setting off in first gear although not necessarily in crawler where fitted. We must not forget some of the parts which are fitted to many of our current classics will no longer be available should repairs be necessary so why treat them in a manner which could potentially hasten the demise of any preserved bus or coach.

Andrew Beever


01/03/13 – 05:56

The trick for engaging a non synchromesh first gear on a gearbox with synchromesh on the higher gears is to engage initially one of the higher (synchronised) gears to better match the speeds of the mainshaft and layshaft, and then swiftly move into the desired first ratio, keeping the clutch down all the time. There cannot be many gearboxes of this type on modern cars (or buses), but the same method is good practice for engaging reverse on today’s gearboxes. How often do we hear many motorists, who are clearly unsympathetic towards machinery, start a cold engine (which then revs at a higher speed than it does when settled) and then slam the transmission into reverse provoking audible protest from the cogs? Engaging a forward gear first makes clean engagement of reverse rather easier. I even adopted this procedure on semi automatic buses. After idling in neutral at a stop, I would engage top gear and then the starting gear to avoid the jolt that always occurred if the engine idling speed was absorbed by the low ratio.
Getting back to the first v second gear issue, I can fully understand Mike B’s concern in relation to preserved vehicles. These must be treated with a high degree of respect, and it is inevitable that some of today’s volunteer drivers simply cannot acquire the experience required to handle these machines with the level of assurance or accomplishment possessed by good, seasoned PSV drivers of the past. Every stratagem should be employed to minimise mechanical stresses on our heritage vehicles, and caution is entirely warranted. Sadly, a lack of caution is all too prevalent with historic aircraft, where over exuberance at air displays has sometimes had devastating results.

Roger Cox


01/03/13 – 08:14

Roger has succinctly laid out the proper and approved method of driving adhered to by thousands of good drivers over many years. Andrew seems to have deliberately misunderstood him. Of course we don’t treat 40, 50, 60 year old buses in the same way we would would when they were new. I am a PCV/PSV driver and advanced motorist and approach each individual vehicle I drive with sympathy. I was going to keep quiet on this one, but I can’t let these comments slip by un-noted.

David Oldfield


Your last couple of sentences are so right, Roger. It’s as bad, if not worse, with old planes where a misjudgement writes off the whole aircraft. I’ve not forgotten our sole Blenheim which had taken years to assemble, being severely damaged by a gung-ho pilot who’d had nothing to do with the restoration. It took the poor owners and enthusiasts years to put it back into flying order. How they had the courage and self-discipline to do it amazes me, after such a setback.

Chris Hebbron


01/03/13 – 08:16

Andrew, taking care and careful driving of preserved vehicles and discussing what went on/goes on in service – which is the what I thought we were discussing – are two different matters.

Mike B, in his last sentence, added in the handling of preserved vehicles. These, of course, should be driven correctly and correctly may well mean in a different manner to that which the outside observer feels is correct.
Roger’s earlier analysis of the use of second gear in normal service earlier in the thread matches my observations of the industry over a 50+ year period and I fully endorse his remarks regarding the handling of preserved aircraft at airshows. I’ve seen too many crashes and lost a number of friends and acquaintances due to such handling.

Phil Blinkhorn


02/03/13 – 07:11

Yesterday I said that I was not that worried as to why or how an individual was taught to drive a PSV in a particular way and whatever the merits of differing approaches and styles were back in the 1950’s, 1960’s or even into the 1970’s unless the style of driving back then impacts on the way the current preserved buses especially those with a conventional gearbox are driven then only best practice is acceptable.
Being active in the preservation field we are faced on an all too frequent basis when so called PSV drivers with long careers in the public passenger service come along with a driving technique which is totally unsuitable for preserved buses.
These are the ones who come along quoting that I used to drive for whoever in whenever and we had so many of these and we would always set off in second gear. Setting off in second gear might have been all well and good back then in a service bus when the speed was limited with a low ratio differential. However, today an individual with that mind set behind the wheel of a preserved bus where the differential is often of a higher ratio predominately to aid getting to and from rallies then setting off in second gear isn’t an acceptable practice. Now try as we may there is just no changing the way some of these so called experts are going to drive. So was it good practice to set off in second gear did it set an acceptable standard for me I’m afraid it wasn’t especially when this practice is then applied unilaterally by some even when in a preserved bus

Andrew Beever


02/03/13 – 14:02

Andrew, why are you using pejorative language? This is a friendly and discursive forum open to all sorts of views and sometimes friendly disagreements. To call drivers with years of experience “so called experts” is grossly unfair. They drove those often poorly equipped vehicles, often for basic pay, and learned how to get the best out of those vehicles for their employer, their passengers and themselves.
I can understand frustration IF you explain not just that you want one of your vehicles driven in a certain way but why, and then you are ignored, but it seems to me that fitting different gearing or axles to facilitate running to and from rallies is not preservation in the true sense as the vehicle is not in its original form. What you are doing is preserving the look of the visible vehicle, i.e. the body and visible mechanical parts to represent what the vehicle looked like at a particular time.
Nothing wrong with that so long as the distinction is made between a truly preserved vehicle with the original gearing/engine/performance, body (or totally accurate modern copies) and a vehicle which, to represent a type and facilitate easier handling/mobility, has been modified.
As I pointed in another thread where Orla Nutting stated that the engine and gearbox on the preserved Stockport Tiger Cub had been replaced by a Royal Tiger engine and Albion 3 speed box, it will sound very different to the original.
I’ve every respect for people who spend selfless hours and a great deal of money to represent, either in fully or partially preserved form, vehicles and machinery of all kinds from what was once a very lively industrial base. Please don’t spoil that respect by insulting those that had to use the machinery on a day to day basis and know far better than you how it had to be used. If you treat them with respect most of them will listen and give back to you in kind. Those that don’t obviously won’t drive for you again.

Phil Blinkhorn


03/03/13 – 10:55

Good point well put, Phil, its a bit like the axe in the museum that’s only had two heads and three handles, but it looks original.

Ronnie Hoye


03/03/13 – 16:46

It does appear to me that the preserved vehicle fraternity, to whom we are all extremely grateful for their tireless endeavour and commitment in maintaining our transport heritage, are rather missing the point here. All the other contributors above have drawn the distinction between the realities of everyday operation in the past and the careful preservation in the present. When vehicles such as these were in full passenger carrying service they ran out at something like 5 o’clock in the morning and toiled ceaselessly with a succession of crews all day up to around midnight, day after day, year upon year. Their drivers would handle these buses in concentrated spells of four to five and a half hours at a time, carrying very heavy passenger loads on tightly scheduled routes, often with six or more stops to the mile. These drivers acquired a degree of familiarity and skill with their machinery, together with a commensurate respect, that cannot be dismissed as “so called”. They spent more time behind the wheel of a bus in a week than the average enthusiast does in a year. This is a world away from the present day preservationist movement, where, quite rightly, discretion is the better part of almost everything else. To hark back to the aviation analogy, fully bomb loaded Stirlings, Halifaxes and Lancasters would take off in the blackness of night, often in the foulest weather, and fly far into Germany, taking evasive action against night fighters and flak before dropping their bombs and facing a similar set of hazards on the return trip. This is a far cry from a present day doddle round Duxford in a Dragon Rapide during a sun drenched summer afternoon.

Roger Cox


04/03/13 – 07:38

As I said above, Thank you Roger and Phil.

David Oldfield


04/03/13 – 07:38

Surely it is all a matter of what gear/differential ratios and what power and torque output are provided on the individual vehicle, One operator’s PD2 would be entirely differently geared to another’s PD2. It would depend on the local terrain and what type of service it was to be used on – frequently stopping or long, only occasionally stopping interurban. There is simply not a one-size-fits-all style of driving.
Mike B. suggested that Driving Schools had their own agendas and may have taught their trainees to make fewer gear changes in order that this would reduce the likelihood of making mistakes (so presumably maximising test pass results). I was a PSV/PCV Instructor for 18 years and knew all the instructors at the various depots in our region of the company as well as getting to meet many others from other companies around the country. I can assure him that this was not the case at all. We all taught trainees to demonstrate Vehicle Sympathy, appropriate to the individual vehicle and circumstances.

John Stringer


22/09/13 – 14:31

How times have changed when I started working at Fredrick Road in 1970 under Salford Corp, as a conductor it was a joy I went driving in 1972 on all the old back loaders to the newer ones in 1997 from having to push and pull the steering wheel round and now you could turn it with one finger, happy days

Tony Howard


03/11/13 – 08:58

Second gear or first gear when moving off,……part of the PCV Diving test is an exercise in moving away downhill and the correct method is to engage second gear release the handbrake holding the vehicle on the foot brake then transfer your foot to the accelerator and move away. I think anywhere a bus rolls forward when brake released can be moved away in second gear.

Michael Crofts


16/11/15 – 15:18

Back to the FRJ Daimlers that dominated the Salford fleet during my student days in Manchester. Have any of them survived into preservation? I noted the particular Salford feature of extended indicator handles, allowing the conductor to turn them while standing on the road, unlike my experience during summer holiday work with PD2’s of IOM Road Services, where in order to reach the handle, I had to place the right foot in a stirrup alongside the radiator, left foot along the top edge of the number plate and use the left hand to hold on to a handle on the cab side. I recall that , in contrast to Manchester, Salford employed a significant number of ‘clippies’, and so wonder if this feature was to save them the indignity (or even impossibility for the shorter ones) of climbing across the front of the vehicle to reach the handles. Manchester’s indicators (requiring 4 handles rather that Salford’s 2) and those of many other operators were inside the driver’s cab; I wonder why Salford didn’t do likewise?

M Jones


17/11/15 – 06:46

I am pretty sure that 511(FRJ 511) is still in preservation somewhere, but not sure where. Incidentally, the first Salford Atlanteans and Fleetlines (and maybe other operators) had a rear service number. This was changed by opening a step on the rear bustle in order to reach the handles, hopefully with the driver’s knowledge that you were there!

John Hodkinson


17/11/15 – 06:46

In answer to M Jones, FRJ 511 features in the 2012 PSVC listing, as being with the 4100 Group in Manchester.

Pete Davies


23/11/15 – 08:17

Salford city transport never had advertising on it’s buses..but just before s.e.l.n.e.c..with orange buses..did Salford advertise on Atlanteans

Harry


23/11/15 – 09:39

Salford’s Transport Committee approved the use of adverts on its vehicles and these started to appear in May 1968. There are pictures in Manchester and Salford A Century of Municipal Transport in the Glory Days series of publications of a Phoenix bodied CVG6 and an Atlantean carrying ads, the former in summer 1968, the latter in May 1969. In addition there is a photo of a PD2 with an ad at Agecroft. Undated it is in full Salford livery with its Salford fleet number and as the photos tend to be in sequence, it falls well before any hint of SELNEC.
There is an oddity in the book. A photo of 151, the first PD2, is shown at the Weaste terminus of service 3. This purports to have been taken in 1963. The photo is almost head on but the nearside between decks panels are covered by an advert of some kind which, though the content cannot be discerned, is a white background with red and possibly blue print. Page 82 of the book refers for those who have a copy.

Phil Blinkhorn


23/11/15 – 11:30

Can I please ask what a ‘Phoenix’ body is? I have never come across one of these.

Stephen Howarth


23/11/15 – 14:07

Phil, with reference to the adverts on Salford 151, the most helpful photos I could find were in Henry Conn’s part 9 of British Buses, Trams & Trolleybuses 1950s-1970s.(page 112). Other possible clues are on the cover & page117 of Eric Gray’s SCT.

Andrew Gosling


23/11/15 – 14:08

The heading photo is a Phoenix body.

Phil Blinkhorn


23/11/15 – 14:43

Andrew, please give details as I don’t have the publications.

Phil Blinkhorn


23/11/15 – 14:44

Sorry to labour the point, but is the Phoenix name then, a design name like the Farringdon, or the Orion body style names? As I said I have never heard of it. I must have been living in a vacuum for 60+ years.

Stephen Howarth


24/11/15 – 06:17

Yes Stephen, it is a design name. It has some commonality to the Metro-Cammell Birmingham standard design of the period.

Phil Blinkhorn


24/11/15 – 06:20

Phil,the two books are:

Salford City Transport, Edward Gray, TPC April 1975, ISBN 0 903839 06 7.

British Buses, Trams & Trolleybuses 1950s-1970s, ISBN 978 185794 397 9
Part 9 Greater Manchester, Lancashire & Cumbria, Henry Conn, Silver Link Publishing 2012.

The cover of the first book shows a PD2 in Selnec days with an advert for the Leek & Westbourne building society (forerunner to Britannia). This is basically red with white lettering, and also appears in the page117 view of Victoria (Green Selnec PD2). In book 2 on page 112 this advert again appears, together with a heating advert which I have failed to decipher but the colours seem right.
There is beer advert carried by MCTD 3484 on page 41 of Stewart Brown’s Greater Manchester Buses,Capital Transport 1995 ISBN185414 174 0 which looks a possible answer for Salford 151.

Andrew Gosling


24/11/15 – 06:21

Here is a superb photo of 511 (FRJ511)with the blurb also stating that it’s in the care of the 4100 group. www.ipernity.com/doc/

Chris Hebbron


24/11/15 – 08:57

Stephen, the Phoenix name came from the way this fleet of Daimlers allowed Salford to rise out of the ashes of what had been a really run-down fleet into one in which everybody could have considerable pride. I think it was only an unofficial name and would only apply to Salford due to the circumstances.

David Beilby


24/11/15 – 09:31

Stephen, you’re not alone. I’ve never heard of the Phoenix body either, and my period of ignorance extends to 70+ years.

Roger Cox


24/11/15 – 13:51

Is this a Victory Daimler with a Phoenix body raised from the ashes of war-time maintenance? ? Very poetic.

Joe


25/11/15 – 07:04

David, I doubt very much that the Phoenix name had anything to do with Salford and its regeneration under Charles Baroth.
I first came across the name in the late 1950s on a tour of Hyde Rd works when a number of Manchester’s first batch of their variation of the body type were undergoing maintenance. These differed in detail, such as stairs and radiator, from the Salford vehicles but, as Eyre and Heaps say on page 351 of the Manchester Bus, “the body design was Metro Cammell’s standard Phoenix design with only minor modifications to Manchester’s specification”

Phil Blinkhorn


25/11/15 – 07:05

I think that I would just accept that the date in M&S Glory Days is incorrect and maybe a typo for 1968. The nearside mudguard of the bus looks to be slightly misshapen which might suggest that it is a post Baroth picture. The picture of 253 on page 86 of the same book carries an advert for solid fuel fires, the strapline for which is ‘Welcome Home to the living fire that you know is cheaper to run’ This was definitely an advert borne in the early days of SELNEC, 1970, and also featured on ex-Bury buses in Henry Conn’s wonderful book as well as Salford’s 254 as noted by Andrew Gosling.

As I understand it, the term ‘Phoenix’ was used by Metro-Cammell to describe one of its designs. It’s not a Daimler term. It isn’t included under Metro-Cammell in the PSV Circle listings of body codes (though there is a ‘Phoenix’ with body code PIC which maybe no relation whatsoever). Although Met-Camm produced other bodies very similar to the Manchester and Salford bodies, most notably for BCT and West Bromwich the term ‘Phoenix’ only seems to be applied to those for the two Lancashire undertakings. ‘The Manchester Bus’, (Heaps & Eyres) makes several references to the term.

Orla Nutting


25/11/15 – 11:38

I wonder – Could the ‘brand name’ Phoenix be a fore-runner of the Orion?

Pete Davies


04/12/15 – 06:01

Like others I only came to know the Phoenix name late in life, but since then have always assumed it to be an invention of MCW, the joint marketing division of Metro-Cammell and Weymann until manufacturing was moved under its wing in 1966. MCW had a tendency to use names related to ancient mythology: Hermes was a Greek god; Orion was a huntsman; Aurora was the Roman goddess of dawn; Phoenix was a mythological bird. Leyland did likewise with Titan and Atlantean, so their combined effort to produce the Olympic was a marriage made in ancient Greek heaven (on top of Mount Olympus, where the Greek gods lived).

Peter Williamson


17/07/17 – 05:57

I remember the 56 and 57 Piccadilly to Swinton in the 1970s run by Frederick Rd depot. Both routes terminated at Swinton centre, but the drivers always wound the blind on the ‘top’ road bus to declare’ PENDLEBURY ‘as the destination which was of course wrong as the 57 ran VIA Pendlebury on its way to Swinton. The intermediate blind was 3 lines showing
Pendleton Precinct
Irlams o’th Height
Pendlebury
and of course the desti display should always have been SWINTON and never Pendlebury! The same drivers on the 64 and 66 never showed MONTON GREEN as the desti for the 66 which did precisely the same thing (Piccadilly) – Pendleton- Eccles- Peel Green with the 64 direct VIA Patricroft and the 66 ( like the 57 ) running VIA Monton Green and not terminating there. So the idle practice of showing incorrectly PENDLEBURY would never enter their heads on the 66, they always showed ‘PEEL GREEN New Lane’ on both routes. If going to be a FK garage vilain I would have said at least be CONSISTENT ! Used to look ridiculous the bus entering Swinton via Station Road having already served Pendlebury and declaring the nonsensical destination ‘PENDLEBURY’.

Frank Evans


22/07/17 – 06:40

The official practice of showing Pendlebury as the destination of the 56 (formerly the 77) goes back to Salford City Transport days, when there were no via blinds. There is nothing ‘idle’ about doing what you are told to do.

Peter Williamson


28/07/17 – 16:25

If it’s of interest, there is (or was until recently) an old ‘E’ Reg PD of Salford City being used for promotional purposes here in West Cork, Ireland.
After decommissioning from front line work, I think it went to Scotland as a training vehicle, before doing a similar function in Belgium or Holland. When I last saw it, it was parked up in Clonakilty, boldly advertising Clonakilty Black Pudding, and I can do a bit of ferretting if required or the company has its own website that you could contact for info.

Nick Turner


29/07/17 – 07:13

PS – Having now found the notes I made when I researched this vehicle before, it was JRJ 268E which I have down as Salford/SELNEC before going to E Scottish as a trainer vehicle, followed by a similar stint at Trent. No doubt those with an interest will be able to take it from there?

Nick Turner


Vehicle reminder shot for this posting


17/07/20 – 07:41

I remember these old Daimlers as my first real experience of travelling on a bus of any type. My parents lived off Lancaster Road on the western-most border of the ‘old’ Salford, and the circular services 25 & 30 were our only choice of public transport. As an 11yr old, somehow I always preferred the ‘clockwise’ 30 service to the 25.
I just remember the jerky ride and relative slowness, but was always impressed by the ‘posh’ green livery, the gold angular type-face, and the coats of arms of the City emblazoned on the flanks.

Thomas

Rotherham Corporation – Daimler CVG6 – MET 125 – 125


Copyright John Stringer

Rotherham Corporation
1955
Daimler CVG6
Weymann L27/26R

After years of handling crash gearboxed Bristols and latterly Crossleys, Rotherham Corporation’s drivers probably had mixed feelings about being presented with their first preselectors in the form of these 1955 Daimler CVG6’s. In certain respects physically easier to drive than what had gone before, they would have had that unfortunate tendency to occasionally kick back through the gearchange pedal if the driver forgot himself (or herself, as I believe the Department was unusual at the time in employing a woman driver – have I got that right?) and tried to ride the pedal like a clutch, or did not press it firmly to the floor with confidence – likely to cause a painful injury to the ankle, shin or knee. The body was Weymann’s much more pleasantly proportioned (in my opinion) alternative to the plain Metro Cammell Orion – in this case in its lowbridge form. Photographed at Rotherham’s Rawmarsh Road depot in 1968, it was withdrawn in 1971.

Photograph and Copy contributed by

A full list of Daimler codes can be seen here.


01/03/13 – 06:09

At first glance, it looks like the Swindon/Thamesdown livery (to me but my eyesight isn’t perfect!). Is it the film, the processing or the lighting? We’ve followed that route elsewhere on this site. Nice view, John!

Pete Davies


01/03/13 – 06:09

Known as the Aurora, this was far more well known as a four bay high-bridge design and, certainly by 1955, 8′ wide. This made these unusual in several respects. CVG6s figured in Rotherham orders for a good ten years – with mostly Roe, but also some more Weymann bodies. [I have not had the experience but always thought the pre-selectors with the kick back were the spring operated versions. Were these late pre-selectors spring or air operated?]

David Oldfield


01/03/13 – 06:10

John, Rotherham did have female drivers in the post war period. I can remember an article in the Daily Mirror in the late sixties about the ladies concerned .
One of these Daimlers is now preserved at the South Yorkshire Transport Museum.

Chris Hough


01/03/13 – 08:11

Strictly, not, Chris. It’s a 1954 high-bridge…..

David Oldfield


01/03/13 – 11:33

Sheffield city centre, and immediate surrounds, used to see such a wonderful variety of liveries including this Rotherham example, the old & new Doncaster, Tracky, West Riding, Sheffield United Tours, Mexborough & Swinton, East Midland’s chocolate, biscuit and cream, (later replaced by their dark red/maroon) Wigmore blue and grey, Chesterfield’s rich dark green and cream, not to mention the plethora of independent coach operators, each with instantly identifiable colours. What a tragic shame that all were washed away by either the PTE or National blandness. Sheffield’s own livery was, of course, my personal favourite. Thankfully, users of this site keep posting nostalgia! Keep ’em coming.

Les Dickinson


01/03/13 – 11:34

What exactly was Rotherham’s requirement for lowbridge vehicles? They seem to have had a mixed fleet and towards the end of their separate existence, the lowbridge or low height contingent diminished, so were the offending bridges removed?
I’m in complete agreement about the pleasant proportions, this style was a nice alternative to the Orion, particularly in lowbridge form.

Chris Barker


01/03/13 – 11:34

The livery looks about right, Pete although the cream could be lighter and the blue royaller. They also went in for Arriva-style “swerves” with the cream at the front, but probably thought these tin-fronts swervy enough.

Joe


01/03/13 – 13:47

You’re so right Les, we lost a lot with coffee, cream and white.
Lots of roads were dropped under bridges to allow more headroom for full height vehicles. Interesting, though, that Rotherham had these splendid vehicles at almost the same time as Sheffield had their monstrous low-bridge Orion Regent IIIs. What a difference a few months can make.
Just had a cataract operation, Pete/Joe. Boy what a difference in colours with “new eyes”. That could also be a factor.

David Oldfield


01/03/13 – 13:48

I well remember my first sighting of one of these, when brand new 124 showed up one Sunday afternoon on the route running through our Rotherham housing estate, which had no requirement for lowbridge buses at all, and was normally handled by Crossleys. I was seven at the time, and was so amazed by it, that I persuaded my father to take me for a ride to Canklow and back on one the following weekend, just so I could sample one of the new buses.
At the time, Rotherham needed lowbridge buses on the 33 to Treeton and the 19 service to Dinnington, joint with East Midland, but these Daimlers quite often appeared on the workers services to Templeborough (70) and the 17 to ‘Yorkshire Engine Company’!
With respect to the pre-selector gearboxes, I do recall a piece in the local Rotherham paper in the early 60’s, reporting on the fact that at least a couple of accidents had been attributed to driver inexperience with the gearbox controls, the vehicles in question having suddenly jumped ahead while stationery, one I believe knocking down a pedestrian on a zebra crossing. There were questions asked at the time about the necessity for more extensive driver training etc. I presume the pre-selectors would have been considered a lot easier to master by the drivers who were having to be retrained from trolleybus work, as a fair number of them would have moved over to the buses when the Maltby conversion took place in 1954, utilising the highbridge version of the same chassis shown here. Rotherham’s only woman driver of the period, Winifred Hallam, wouldn’t have had any trouble with the pre-selectors I’m sure; she was licensed to drive trams, trolleybuses and motor buses, the only woman in the country to hold that distinction, so I understand.
Three lowbridge Leyland TD7’s were purchased as a stopgap measure from Chesterfield Corporation in 1956, whilst delivery of three Roe bodied CVG6’s was awaited. These were already at the end of their lives, and quickly disappeared as soon as the trio of new Daimlers arrived the following year.

Dave Careless


02/03/13 – 07:21

Glad your operation was both successful and a revelation, David O!

Chris Hebbron


02/03/13 – 07:22

In answer to your question about gearboxes, David, the answer is spring-operated, if it had a kick-back. For once, this is a type of transmission I’m thankful I’ve never needed to contend with!
By 1955 an AEC with preselect could certainly be considered ‘late’ since the Regal IV & Regent III were just about to be superseded by the Reliance & Regent V – which featured Monocontrol, if they weren’t manual. For a Daimler, however. I’m pretty sure that preselects remained available in the CVG6 range right up to the end of production in 1968/9.
As to when spring-operated gearboxes gave way to air-operated (on Daimlers) I’ve always assumed it was the late 1950s, but I may be corrected on that.

David Call


02/03/13 – 09:22

Thanks, Chris, for your good wishes.
Thanks, David, re pre-selects – although I am aware that late Daimlers had moved from pre-select to semi-auto control. [Huddersfield and the route 72 Leeds models spring to mind.] Whether anyone opted for pre-selectors after this time, I wouldn’t like to say.
Spent a delightful day with an ex Morecambe 9612E a year or two ago but have also driven many miles with Scania Comfort-shift coaches – which you drive “as a pre-selector”. […..even though it’s a synchromesh box.]

David Oldfield


02/03/13 – 14:06

I believe Northampton’s Daimlers retained pre-selector boxes right up to the last batch delivered in 1968.

Eric Bawden


02/03/13 – 14:06

My recollection is that all of Derby Corporation’s Daimler CVG6’s were pre-selectors – from the initial 10 with Park Royal bodywork (115-124, i.e. KRC115-125) supplied in 1957 to the very last Roe-bodied ones supplied in 1966 (185-189, i.e. KRC185-189D). I am not sure whether the gear change layout correlates with spring versus air-operated change, but I distinctly remember that all of these had an H-gate selector under the left-hand side of the steering wheel (like the AEC Regent), rather than the quadrant under the right hand side, as on the CVD6 (and I think the earlier COG5).

Stephen Ford


02/03/13 – 14:07

David, I have established beyond reasonable doubt that preselects were available on CVG6s up to the end of production, since the very last ones (for Northampton) were themselves preselect. One thing of which I was certainly not aware (and which came as a big surprise) was the fact that these last apparently featured spring-operated gearboxes, and vacuum brakes. So not only were preselects available to the end of production, spring-operated ones were (as well as, presumably, air-operated ones).
Northampton were certainly not alone in continuing to specify preselect gearboxes, I do know that the three CVG6LX-30s delivered to Swindon in 1967 were preselect – one of these, 145 (JAM 145E), I believe continues as a heritage vehicle with Swindon’s successor, Thamesdown Transport. I would be very surprised if there were not other operators who specified preselects to the end, simply because preselects were what they were accustomed to. As you say, semi-auto certainly became the norm in later years – I think they were probably available from the start of CVG6-30 production, c1956.

David Call


03/03/13 – 07:51

Thanks for putting me right Eric, Stephen and David.

David Oldfield


03/03/13 – 07:51

PMT’s 30 CVG5 of 1956 were vacuum braked with spring operated gear change. I only got my ankle wrapped round the driver’s seat once – that was enough!! Their sole CVD6-30 of 1958 was air braked with semi automatic gear change. If the bus was vacuum braked then the gear change would have to be spring operated – no air system for any other type of operation.

Ian Wild


03/03/13 – 07:52

There were three types of selector used on Daimler CVs, but they didn’t quite correspond to the three gearbox options. The quadrant was only used with the spring-operated preselector gearbox and vacuum brakes, and was replaced by the H-gate (with horizontal lever) in the mid-1950s. This was used with both spring-operated and air-operated preselector gearboxes, the former with vacuum brakes and the latter with air. The third option was the Daimatic (direct-acting semi-automatic) transmission, which used an H-gate with vertical lever, as on the Fleetline, with air brakes obviously. All three transmission options were eventually available on the 27ft CVG6; the CVG6-30 could have either of the two air-braked options, while the humble CVG5 was only ever available with the spring-operated preselector and vacuum brakes.

Peter Williamson


Vehicle reminder shot for this posting


21/03/13 – 17:24

I seem to remember preselector gearboxes on AEC IIIs in Sheffield in the 50s. With so many “vertical streets” in Sheffield. it was hard to set off on a hill start with a bus full & a crash gearbox. On the route I used to travel most, the 34 Graves Park & 35 Hollythorpe Rise, the crash boxed buses would have to set off in 1st gear, then by the time they tried to get 2nd selected, the bus had come to a stop! They then had to go back to 1st gear & repeat the process. The AEC were the standard for these routes with different coachwork of Northern Coachworks, Weymann & possibly Cravens on the 33 route, Hemsworth. Hemsworth is one of the highest parts in Sheffield with a watertower to supply our water. We also had the 36 Heeley Green at rush hours, they all took the same hilly route as far as Heeley Green. Could my memory be right on the preselectors?

Andy Fisher

Forgot to add, at most of the terminus, they had water with watering cans, for the driver to top them up when they were boiling, Many times they would still be boiling, coming down the hills to the city centre, so they must have got very hot.


22/03/13 – 07:53

1947 – 1950 all Regent IIIs were (air operated) pre-select. The PD2s were manual but from 1952 all Regent IIIs and Vs were synchromesh until 1963. From 1957 PD2s/PD3s had the new “semi-crash” box. These latter were the biggest culprits in the “will they, won’t they” hill start when full stakes.

David Oldfield


22/03/13 – 07:56

Scroll down, Andy, to 5/11/12 on the link below and the photo will show a familiar sight! www.old-bus-photos.co.uk/

Chris Hebbron

West Bromwich – Daimler CVG6 – GEA 165/159 – 165/159


Copyright John Stringer

West Bromwich (County Borough of) Transport Dept
1952
Daimler CVG6
Weymann H30/26R

Actually pictured during their final West Midlands P.T.E. days – though there is little here to suggest it – this fine pair of former West Bromwich Corporation Daimler CVG6’s with traditionally shaped Weymann H30/26R bodywork was caught taking an off-peak rest at the town’s depot on 10th August, 1971.  What a superb livery it was, and just imagine how superior a modern Gemini double decker would look in the same style, compared to the more usual stripes, swoops and general garishness.

Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer

A full list of Daimler codes can be seen here.


05/05/13 – 09:45

For vehicles nineteen years old these two impeccable and seemingly unblemished beauties in a classic livery are a real tribute to the manufacturer and to both operators. I agree entirely John with your triple condemnations of the modern Gemini appearance, and that of other brands too, and would add a fourth – seemingly appalling standards of construction. I would far rather take a long journey in one of the Daimlers than in any of the current offerings which routinely display more rattles and body movement after nineteen days than the old troopers would do after the same number of years – and I say that with not a trace of “rose tinted glasses.”

Chris Youhill


05/05/13 – 18:58

GEA 174

Another GEA registered Daimler is seen on its way to Aberystwyth, well outside its comfort zone! It was hired by the West Midlands Transport Circle, Easter Monday 1973.

F33 XOF

Not quite a Gemini, but this is what a Metrobus looked like in West Brom’s livery.

Tony Martin


05/05/13 – 19:02

The body design looks right, the livery looks right. The combination looks right. Thank you, John, for posting.

Pete Davies


05/05/13 – 19:03

Although the majority of modern “liveries” look like something concocted by Dali after a night on the absinthe the recent repainting of a Wright bodied Volvo of First South Yorkshire into Sheffield livery shows that the bus can look good if the right colours are applied in the right proportions.
Sadly there are too many in the industry today who see their services in terms of “product” and not public service. Consequently we are at the mercy of the marketing men who probably never catch a bus and lack the aesthetic insight into making the built environment pleasant for everybody. Sadly First’s “refreshed livery” is now so wishy washy as to lack any impact at all

Chris Hough


05/05/13 – 19:04

West Bromwich had a wonderful livery, the bottom not being unlike B’ham Corp’n, but the lighter blue at the top contrasted beautifully. Sad to say, at the time I was sculling around B’ham, in the mid-50’s, my glimpses of them showed too may of their buses looked rather sad in faded liveries.

Chris Hebbron


06/05/13 – 08:29

Well said, Mr Hough! It isn’t just the livery and the standard of production of the modern bus that is a problem. I was on one of WORST’s buses in Gosport recently. A lady in a wheelchair boarded, with assistance, but it was very difficult to move into the (nearside) marked space because of a grab rail. Had the designated wheelchair space been offside, there would have been little difficulty. The grab rail has to be where it is, apparently, because it helps to hold the roof up!

Pete Davies


06/05/13 – 08:30

I’m glad you posted the Heritage-painted Metrobus, Tony, because I recalled it after my earlier post and how smart the livery looked on a modern ‘box’. I think that several WM buses went back into their original constituent liveries at this time – mid 1990’s?

Chris Hebbron


06/05/13 – 08:31

Putting on my tin hat am I not correct in saying that some of the “stripes, swoops and general garishness” are designed by Ray Stenning, the Editor of Classic Bus. magazine.

Paragon


06/05/13 – 08:32

Thank you Pete and Chris H x 2 – its reassuring to see that, despite the modern regrettable trend, conservative appreciation of real quality and dignity in appearance is still alive and well !!

Chris Youhill


06/05/13 – 08:33

A fine livery indeed, and I’m surprised that they managed to survived into the Wumpty era. However, I’m puzzled by the reference to them having a traditional-shaped Weymann body. For me, the traditional flared-skirted Weymanns seemed to have slightly drooping eyelids (to use a technical term) caused by the louvers over the upper deck front windows. These admittedly fine looking buses lack this feature and seem to be a precursor of the Orion style of upper front windows – or have I had one too many glasses of Rioja?

Paul Haywood


06/05/13 – 11:32

When I referred to these bodies being ‘traditionally shaped’ I did not mean to suggest that they possessed exactly the features of the earlier Weymann design to which Paul refers, but just that in a general sense they were traditionally well proportioned, shapely and tasteful, as opposed to boxlike, slab-sided and ugly – as so many bodies of the period were becoming.
If anything, the shape of the front domes remind me more of the Metro-Cammell ‘Phoenix’ design as supplied to Manchester and Salford.
But then just to show how fickle and contrary my opinions can be, I realise I also have a certain peculiar liking for some of the boxlike, slab-sided and ugly buses too – certain Orions (in the right livery) for example, even Bridgemasters, and I really liked the Park Royal-bodied Renown. So I suppose I’ve now blown any credibility I had with Chris Y! (but remember Ledgard’s ex-Devon General Regents Chris – you know you liked them).

John Stringer


06/05/13 – 17:27

PDV 732

Please fear not John – your 100% credibility remains untainted at that commendably high rating !! I did indeed admire the two Devon General Regents, PDV 726/732, although sadly I never worked on them as they were always based at Armley headquarters. It would have been nice to encounter one which was just possible in only two circumstances. On Mondays to Fridays Otley depot operated one return journey with an Armley vehicle – the 4.25pm Ilkley – Guiseley – Leeds and 5.27pm Leeds – Guiseley – Ilkley. The crafty purpose of this little exercise was to facilitate the running into the correct depot of each vehicle on the route late at night.
One other remote possibility occurred on Saturdays, when an Otley depot crew took an Armley Depot Leeds – Otley – Ilkley bus from Otley to Ilkley and back while the Leeds crew had a forty minute meal break. All clever stuff, but I never encountered a “Devonian” while working these trips, but here is picture of one at West Park, Leeds from an unusual angle.

Chris Youhill


07/05/13 – 07:38

Yes, Paragon, most do come from Ray Stenning. Have you ever encountered him?

Pete Davies


07/05/13 – 07:38

Chris Hough. Have just returned from a weekend with family and friends in Sheffield. Both the tram and the bus liveried Wrights buses look superb – but this was also my first experience of the new Worst Bus livery. It’s atrocious – looks like it’s been painted in primer and then left there! The West Bromwich Daimlers are a modified form of the original Aurora – cf Sheffield and Rotherham on this forum, not to mention the famous Rochdale Regent Vs. The Aurora kept the structure and shape of the classic Weymann but with different detailing – including aluminium window pans. John, you are almost certainly correct in saying that the domes comes from the Met-Camm Phoenix. I think that these were the only Weymanns delivered to West Brom, all others ostensibly Met-Camm. (I think it was a capacity problem that led to Addlestone getting the contract but, as a result, there were several Met-Camm details.) I’m with you on the Orion, John. Sheffield, St Helens and DG had liveries which could lift the Orion from the mundane. Seems Ledgard also knew how to apply the paint as well.

David Oldfield


07/05/13 – 14:04

PS: I think some late Orions for West Bromwich were sub-contracted out because of capacity problems at Met-Camm. I believe Strachans did the work and also built some Metropolitan coaches (on sub-contract) on Ford R192 chassis. A little later, the same happened again when Saunders-Roe (still existing, but dormant in bus building at the time) built, or finished, some Met-Camm Atlanteans for Devon General (G reg.). This came about because Saunders-Roe, by then, were owned by Cammell-Laird. It was suggested in the recent second part of the Weymann story (Senior/Venture) that this was because of serious mis-calculation at Birmingham who thought that closing Weymann’s in 1966 would remove overcapacity only then to find that they were struggling to cope with orders a year or two later.

David Oldfield


07/05/13 – 14:05

Been away all weekend and just seen this thread. Weren’t the West Brom bodies 7 ft 6 in versions of the Phoenix?
As to the First Bus scheme, it generally looks dreadful but, for the first time I saw their ADL Enviro 400s in Manchester and it seems to work in fact I’d say it suits them.

Phil Blinkhorn


08/05/13 – 15:13

Pete. Never met Ray Stenning but I have seen his photograph on Google. I just find it ironical.
Good magazine though and improved under his editorship.

Paragon


08/05/13 – 17:38

I had several dealings with Ray Stenning of “Best Impressions” in my time at LCBS. He regularly turned up, appropriately bearded and garbed, on his Harley Davidson motorcycle. In the final years of NBC, when I was briefly TM at LCBS South East, I devised a new name for the new company – Kentish Bus – and a new livery of maroon and cream. My MD, with whom I had a less than cordial relationship, insisted that Ray Stenning be brought in on the act, and he added additional narrow stripes midway along the panelling, which, though attractive, added to the coach painting costs. This livery won a prize from the Commercial Motor magazine, an event that my MD graciously attended and accepted. I discovered all this later when I read about it in the magazine. Such was life at the end of NBC – anything went in the tawdry scramble for a foothold in the forthcoming privatised “future” of the bus industry. Interestingly, after I had left, when Kentish Bus was sold off to Proudmutual (aka Northumbria, part of United Auto) who installed their own management, the livery reverted to my original scheme. Plus ca change, plus c’est la meme chose. Ray Stenning later took over the editorship of Classic Bus magazine from Gavin Booth (after a short period with another editor) and immediately changed the appearance from black print on white paper to one of coloured type against a half tone photographic background. After subscribing to the magazine for several years, I found the new format unreadable without acquiring a headache, and cancelled. All around us now, and not just in the bus industry, we see practicality subordinated to “design”. As Shakespeare said centuries ago, what we need is “More matter with less art”.

Roger Cox


09/05/13 – 07:47

At least if there’s a war the First buses are already in camouflage! try spotting one after dark. Prior to Yorkshire Rider being sold to Badgerline each district had a bus in traditional livery with the strapline proud of our heritage this included erstwhile West Yorkshire and York city service vehicles.
Marketing people always see things in terms of penetration of brand however in an industry where there is often no direct competition why not acknowledge the local nature of the service and make the local population feel its their service and they are not seen as a necessary evil who reacts in a way that only humans can awkwardly oddly and just plain humanly!

Chris Hough


09/05/13 – 07:57

Roger, l lived in East Sussex at the time and commuted regularly to Croydon as well as Central London. The Kentish Bus livery was clean, modern, attractive and sat well on both Routemaster and Atlantean bodies and came as a welcome innovation in the land of red and green, especially the NBC green. Congratulations on your colour sense and the layout.

Phil Blinkhorn


09/05/13 – 08:30

GUR 889G

David – As well as the Devon General Atlanteans, weren’t some Brighton PD3s also bodied/ finished by Cammell Laird?
I have attached my photo of a Ford R192 bodied by Strachan.
Until quite recently, I thought it was a genuine Metro Cammell, but now know better!
GUR889G was seen at Weston super Mare in July 1974, when it was operated by Crown Tours, Frome.

Bob Gell


09/05/13 – 09:41

Thanks for that, and the splendid picture. Pity it has such a big mouth. What would more attention to detail have done to the overall look?

David Oldfield


09/05/13 – 09:42

Roger – I can say in a very brief few words how I entirely admire and agree with your comments above. I am totally sick to the back teeth of how the “marketing” fraternity have inflicted their zany “supermarket” branding disease on the bus industry and have turned all the nicely designed horizontally travelling vehicles into mobile graffiti studios. A minority of honourable and proud operators have courageously bucked the trend and retained some dignity – just to cite a couple of examples, the glorious DELAINE of Bourne and PENNINE of Skipton. I’d better put up the shutters now, before a missile emblazoned with “Best Impressions” heads this way !!

Chris Youhill


09/05/13 – 11:46

An impression is when you press hard and leave your mark. Well Mr Best has certainly done that. Can’t come up with a pithy one like “Worst Bus” – unless you will accept “Deep Depressions”?

David Oldfield


10/05/13 – 06:35

“Deep depressions” accepted unconditionally David – that’s pithy enough for me !!

Chris Youhill


03/12/14 – 16:22

West Brom – probably the most agreeable bus livery of all time, with City of Brum a close second!

Phil T


Vehicle reminder shot for this posting


24/03/18 – 10:59

We have an Annual ‘Local Heritage Week’ at the Christian Heritge Centre in Rowley, near Blackheath (West Midlands). We try to have a lot of old photos and books on a certain subject, this year, the focus being on ‘Transport’.
We are looking for any pictures of public transport – in your case, buses, that would be local to the area over the past 50-70 years. I notice one or two pictures of West Bromwich buses on your site, and wondered if you could give me details of who to contact re: copyright….or if someone on your site could help us in any way…….

Anne Burrows