Guy – Page 5 – Old bus photos

Southampton Corporation – Guy Arab – LOW 217 – 71

Southampton Corporation
1954
Guy Arab III 6LW
Park Royal H30/26R

LOW 217 is a Guy Arab III with Park Royal H56R body, new in 1954. It is still owned by Southampton City Council and we see it turning from Portswood Road – this section being known locally as Portswood Broadway – into (Old) St Denys Road. It is 30 May 2010 and there is a running day to mark the official (but not actual) closure of Portswood Depot. The actual closure was delayed by about three months because the new depot at Empress Road wasn’t ready.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

21/08/16 – 11:09

These buses looked rather old fashioned for 1954. By then rubber window mounts and ‘new-look’ fronts were well established. Perhaps Southampton valued standardisation more than up to the minute styling as these were the last of a very large batch of early post-war Guys.

Philip Halstead

21/08/16 – 16:17

Yes, Philip, I think you’re right. The next batch to arrive was the PD2 with Midland Red front, then the PD2A and Regent V before the Atlantean. Bill Lewis managed to modernise the livery on the Atlanteans to something like the Manchester style, and I’m not sure why he didn’t deal with the older vehicles as well. Perhaps Nigel Frampton can advise!
Bill had other difficulties with his Committee – they were adamant that they would not follow the trend to overall adverts – the best he could achieve for many years was the ‘wrap around’ style and, although other Councils, including our neighbours Bournemouth and Portsmouth had coaches or dual purpose vehicles for private hire work, Bill was not allowed to have them. I have a strong suspicion that the presence of a local coach proprietor on the Committee had more than some influence there! What about a declaration of conflicting interests?

Pete Davies

21/08/16 – 17:08

Arab III/Park Royal might look a bit old fashioned, but elegant at the same time, especially in the standard livery. I think you might agree that neither the PD2 or PD2A could be described as pretty, particularly in the “red look” livery. Wasn’t the livery on the Regent V/East Lancs/Neepsend pretty much the same as the Guys, except for no silver roof? As far as private hire was concerned, I think you are most likely correct & add in a number of rate paying coach operators in the district & there’s no contest!

David Field

22/08/16 – 05:45

Had this Guy Arab for my wedding on September 2011 taking us all from Fareham to Portsmouth and return. Great for me as Provincial (my favourite operator) had many of this type. A proper bus, brilliant.

Arthur Syson

22/08/16 – 05:46

Wasn’t the Arab IV well established by 1954?

Chris Barker

22/08/16 – 09:23

I don’t recall Portsmouth Corporation having any vehicles for private hire work, be they coaches or DP type. It was a rigmarole for bus enthusiasts to get one of their buses for private hire outside the Portmsouth area, little more the Portsea Island, plus Leigh Park, a Portsmouth Council housing estate, where dispensation had been given after it was built. However, some arrangement enabled the open-topped TD4’s to go to the Epsom Derby.

Chris Hebbron

22/08/16 – 10:44

Portsmouth Corporation did operate some dual purpose vehicles in it’s final years. These were the three Leyland National 2s, nos 98-100 (CPO98-100W) with DP40F bodies, and a zig-zag red on white livery. These were delivered in 1980. In 1982, the Corporation added three Dennis Lancets (95-97), two were buses (B35F), and one (95, GTP95X) was DP33F. All three were bodied by Wadham Stringer. Finally, the Corporation bought a “proper” coach, secondhand from a dealer. This was a Leyland Leopard / Duple C57F, numbered 101 (AUS644S). Then, in the new era of Portsmouth City Transport “arm’s length” company from October 1986, they added two more second hand coaches. These were also Leyland Leopards with Plaxton C51F bodies, and came from Bournemouth. They were nos 104-105 (FEL 104-105L). Apparently PCT Ltd also hired two Shamrock & Rambler Leopard/Plaxton coaches in the summer of 1987. Several of these came under Southampton ownership when Southampton Citybus took over Portsmouth Citybus in July 1988. However it seems to be a quite complex arrangement as to who owned or borrowed which ones in this era. Then along came Stagecoach, then Harry Blundred, then First Group . . . all change! Sorry, this is a long way from the Guy Arab III in the original image. As a teenager, I often visited Southampton when these were the main components of the fleet, so the image brings back good memories. Also, as was mentioned above, some ended up with Provincial at Gosport and Fareham, joining that company’s very similar buses. Those purchases seemed a perfect fit, as even the destination screen arrangements were virtually identical – just the alignment in the front panel being the clue if you know what to look for.

Michael Hampton

22/08/16 – 14:01

I much preferred the Guy Arabs that Provincial acquired new, which had a less spartan interior finish than the Southampton vehicles, while the 5LW gave a better looking profile, but, of course, Southampton needed the 6LW for the long steep hills while Gosport and Fareham had few hills and nothing of any note.

David Wragg

23/08/16 – 06:08

Sorry Pete, I’m afraid I don’t know the reason why the Atlantean livery was not extended to the front engined types. I suppose one could speculate that it was a form of “OPO” livery, in a similar manner to the Bristol Omnibus Company in the few years just prior to the introduction of NBC standard liveries in 1972 – but it would be purely speculation.
I would also add that there was something of a tradition of specific classes of buses retaining different liveries in SCT. One commentator referred to the silver roofs of the Guy Arabs (double and single deck), the Park Royal bodied Leyland Titans and AEC Regent Vs, and the Nimbuses. As far as I know that feature was included at repaint. Then there were the Swifts and Seddon RUs – Swift number 1 always had a different layout of colours (and, I think, a different shade of cream). I also think that the Seddons had another, richer shade of cream.
It would not, of course, comply with modern thinking on corporate images, but I don’t ever recall thinking that the services were operated by anything other than one single operator! On the other hand, one could argue that the various livery layouts had been adapted to suit the respective vehicles. Now that’s something that today’s livery designers could learn!

Nigel Frampton

23/08/16 – 06:13

Well, thank you so much, Michael H, for clarifying the situation on Portsmouth Corporation’s DP buses and coaches. I left Portsmouth in 1976 and was not able to watch the twists and turns of Portsmouth Corporation in its later years and its death throes. I’ve looked on the web and can find no photos of any of the vehicles you mention.

Chris Hebbron

23/08/16 – 06:13

You didn’t mean it this way, David W, but your comment that “Fareham had ‘nothing of any note’ reminds me of an old tourist guide I read many years ago which described Fareham as being “devoid of interest”!

Chris Hebbron

23/08/16 – 06:13

Between 1949 and 1952 (when aged 7 to 10 years) I lived at Alverstoke, where the standard type allocated to the Gosport – Haslar route 11 was the 5LW Guy Arab III with Guy built bodywork on Park Royal frames. In appearance, they were essentially identical to the 6LW Southampton examples, which, to the delight of a visiting small boy, seemed to be operated in huge numbers in that city. Several of these would subsequently become part of the Provincial fleet. Much later, in the late 1960s/early 1970s, I would travel to the city for Institute of Transport meetings at Southampton University, and contrived to catch a Guy for the local part of the journey whenever possible. The Arab III/Park Royal combination is my favourite bus of all time, and I believe that its standard of ride, dependability and operating economics have never been equalled. Geoffrey Hilditch stated that a Guy Arab fleet could regularly offer a 98% standard of reliability, a figure that included engineering spares and buses on overhaul. Nothing else surely could match that. The 1951 Arab IV evolved from the 1950 specification issued by Birmingham City for their new Guys, and, in addition to the repositioned front bulkhead to eliminate the radiator ‘snout’, the updated chassis included features better to meet the requirements for 8ft wide bodywork. The Arab III was offered alongside the Arab IV until late in 1953, and Southampton’s Nos.67-73 batch must have been among the very last deliveries of the type. A picture of No.71 in service may be found on the OBP Southampton gallery. In 1961 Southampton plummeted from the sublime to the ridiculous with its PD2s, the execrable appearance of which led the Corporation to abandon Park Royal after a loyalty of some 33 years.

Roger Cox

23/08/16 – 06:16

Living in Southampton in the post war Guy Arab era, I have to declare a fond predilection for these vehicles.
Although the 64-73 batch were Mk III Arabs, they did have a different exhaust system layout to the earlier vehicles. This batch had a larger diameter system with the pipe located behind the offside wheels; all the other Arabs in the fleet had a smaller diameter system with the exhaust outlet in front of the offside wheels. In 1961, Mr Jenkins, the deputy GM always attributed their superior performance on the road to this difference.
This batch certainly had more oomph! than their predecessors and coped effortlessly on the hillier routes 4 and 6. Of the ten I always thought No 68 (LOW 214) was the pick of a very good bunch.

Peter Elliott

23/08/16 – 06:44

Slightly off subject, but I was told a story that the original So’ton livery was blue/white as per the Regent V BOW 507C in the photo (but without the P&O sponsorship!). This was changed to red/cream when So’ton gained a Labour council sometime between the wars, and there was no way they were going to have blue buses. Can anyone confirm this?

Also the first batch of Regent V’s might well qualify in the Ugly Bus page see photo of 318 AOW attached.
I think the Arab’s that went to Provincial were mainly from the earlier batches, which indeed had things like exposed bulbs for the interior lights, & a sliding window between the lower saloon and the cab, which allowed the conductor and driver to chat . Did you know that the good old “Jelly Mould” interior lights fitted to later models is still in production today . Sorry about the poor picture quality. The photos were taken at So’ton Centenary in 1979.

David Field

23/08/16 – 10:17

David F, I can’t comment on the reason for changing from blue to red livery, but the blue is certainly the pre-war livery. The Regent painted thus for the Centenary is one of the views in our editor’s file for consideration, along with a note on the reason for the P&O adverts.
Roger, you describe the Park Royal bodies on the PD2 as ‘excrable’. I’m sorry, but I didn’t think they were as pretty as that!

Pete Davies

23/08/16 – 14:01

Here’s a coloured photo of an early 1930’s Thornycorft Daring in Southampton Blue with blue roof. At some period, the blue roof was dropped.
The corporation favoured this local bus builder for a period and, guess what, they had Park Royal bodies!

Chris Hebbron

24/08/16 – 05:54

Sorry, Chris. Didn’t mean to offend Fareham. I was really writing about the lack of steep hills. My favourite Guy Arabs were the Southdown Mk.IVs of around 1956, with Park Royal bodies.

David Wragg

24/08/16 – 05:56

If your story is true, Davis F, it just shows how petty politicians can be. I recall that, when Big Ben was thoroughly renovated some years ago, it was found the the clock faces were originally blue and it was suggested that, in the interest of historical accuracy, the faces regain their original colour. Labour objected vehemently and it was not to be. How childish!

Chris Hebbron

24/08/16 – 05:57

Taking up the point made by Peter E about the livelier performance of the later Guy Arabs, Gardner introduced the ‘K’ type LW range of engines in 1950, which, for the 6LW, raised the output from 102 to 112 bhp. That should have made a difference, but I would have expected all the Arabs from No.184 onwards to have exhibited this improved performance. Perhaps that revised exhaust system did provide a magic ingredient.

Roger Cox

24/08/16 – 10:17

It’s all right, David W; I was amused, not upset!

Chris Hebbron

25/08/16 – 15:25

Chris Hebbron writes of difficulties in finding photos of Portsmouth Corporation’s coaches and duple purpose vehicles.

Try and locate the following books:-
Portsmouth Citybus and its Predecessors PSV Circle 1997.
Fares Please Eric Watts 1987 Milestone Publications.
Portsmouth Corporation Transport Bob Rowe 2012 Venture Publications.

Andy Hemming

26/08/16 – 05:07

Had I lived in Southampton at the time, I should have been mortified to see the trams replaced by mere buses, but SCT couldn’t have chosen a worthier vehicle for replacement. I’ve read the postings with particular interest. I agree with both Roger Cox and David Wragg that both the Southampton Arab IIIs and the Southdown Arab IVs were very handsome vehicles.
Bearing in mind the wonderful reliability of the IIIs, can anyone shed light on SCT’s odd decision to move away from Guys? The Arab IV would have been the ideal vehicle for the next order after the III finally went out of production.
What a pity none of the Thornycrofts ever turned up languishing in a barn somewhere. Few enough single-deck Thornycrofts survive, let alone a decker.

Ian Thompson

26/08/16 – 05:08

Thank you Andy for reference to the publications with images of the Portsmouth vehicles I mentioned. There is also a model of the Leyland National 2 in the stripey livery available, their ref 14702. An internet search for this will bring up an image of this, and it is a good representation of the actual thing.

Michael Hampton

26/08/16 – 14:12

To answer Ian’s question, I seem to recall that in the 1959/60 period Guy virtually withdrew the Arab from the market as it was putting all its thrust on the Wulfrunian. I know committed Arab user Lancashire United bought Leyland PD3’s and Daimler CSG’s in this period and perhaps Southampton moved to Leyland for the same reason. The Wulfrunian as we now all know did not quite work out (I am being diplomatic – more like an unmitigated disaster) and Guy went back to offering the Arab around 1962. By that time Guy were in financial difficulties which may have deterred further sales.

Philip Halstead

28/08/16 – 06:29

Sorry, Chris H, but that Big Ben clock face story is an urban myth. It is thought that Pugin’s original colour was green for the dials with royal blue for numbers and hands, but research continues. The Southampton livery changed from blue/white to red/cream after WW2 when the entire tram and bus fleet was in a parlous state at the end of hostilities. The official reason for the livery change was the alleged instability of the blue paint – it was a piece of received wisdom in the bus industry that blue was a “difficult” colour, though a number of operators successfully serving the country north of Watford clearly took a different view. Southampton’s choice of the Daring chassis in the 1930s arose from a natural desire to support local industry. The Thornycroft shipyard was at Woolston, having relocated from Chiswick in 1904, but all the road going vehicles were manufactured at Basingstoke where the company had opened a purpose built factory in 1898. Southampton did take some open top double deck and some single deck examples of the J type in 1919-1921 , but then favoured AEC, Leyland and Guy. The most successful Thornycroft passenger model from the later 1920s was the BC Forward which could also be supplied as a double decker. Southampton took four double deck examples of the two axle BC and became the only significant customer for the HC six wheeler, though these designs were outdated in comparison with the three AEC Regents bought by the Corporation at about the same time. The first Thornycroft passenger model of recognisably modern concept was the XC double decker of 1931, five of which were supplied to Eastern National, though two demonstrators were also made. From this was derived the single deck Cygnet and double deck Daring, distinguished by a new style of radiator shell with a central dividing strip. Southampton took four Daring DD chassis with Park Royal H28/26R bodies in 1933, and these were powered by the 7.76 litre AC6 ohv petrol engine. In the following year another Daring arrived in the fleet, making a total of just five, but this had the first production example of Thornycroft’s 7.88 litre DC6 diesel engine, an indirect injection design yielding 98 bhp at 2100 rpm. A Park Royal H26/24R body was fitted, the different seating from the earlier Darings possibly arising from a repositioned bulkhead to accommodate the diesel engine. (The 6LW powered Darings of SHMD had similar modest seating capacities.) Peter Gould’s list shows this bus as having the AC6 petrol engine, and it may well have been initially so fitted, but the bus ran in service with the diesel. The success of this unit may be gauged by the fact that Southampton’s next bus orders went to Guy and Gardner. All Southampton’s five Darings were subsequently re-engined with 5LWs. OBP has an post on these buses (Southampton Corporation – Thornycroft Daring – OW 3434 – 9), and the picture submitted above by Chris H is a “hand coloured” version of a pre delivery photo of the same bus:- www.bobmockford.co.uk/museum/
Meanwhile, in the trying trading conditions of the mid 1930s – serious losses were incurred between 1932 and 1936 – differences in opinion arose at the Thornycroft board level. Tom Thornycroft, an advocate of the company’s involvement in the bus and coach market, resigned from the firm. The limited sales of Darings and Cygnets convinced the board that there was no future for the company in the passenger chassis market, and the company withdrew all bespoke bus/coach models from 1936. In post war Southampton, the change in supplier from Guy to Leyland and AEC followed the retirement of Manager Percival Baker in 1954. As so often occurred elsewhere in municipal bus management, his successor clearly took a different view on bus procurement matters. The next double deck orders were not placed until 1960/61, by which time Guy was again offering the Arab. (The above information on Thornycroft bus chassis has been derived from several sources, but particularly from Alan Townsin’s book on the manufacturer.)

Roger Cox

31/08/16 – 06:43

David Field’s comments about the interior lights on Provincial’s ex SCT Arabs is interesting. My memory of the post war Arabs in the Southampton fleet is that they had glass covers / shades on all interior cabin lights and that the only pre 1950 Arabs with a sliding window behind the driver’s were those vehicles used for driving training (Fleet nos 114, 129 and 150 ) none of which were sold to Provincial.

Peter Elliott

31/08/16 – 06:43

With regard to the Darings, Nottingham purchased 4 second hand from Southampton in 1947, but according to a book I possess (including a corroborating photograph) these were Southampton 6, 60, 61 and 61 (OW9932 and AOW263-5) supposedly supplied originally in 1936 and 1937 respectively. (Unfortunately I am not at home at the moment, so I cannot say which of the 4 appears in the photo). They were bought to cover post-war shortages, but apparently found little favour, and were withdrawn within a year – largely, no doubt, because they were non-standard.

Stephen Ford

31/08/16 – 09:23

Yes, you’re right, Stephen, and so is Chris H. I completely overlooked the four later deliveries. Southampton took those Darings after trying the early Guy Arab, which itself virtually disappeared from the market after 1936. Perhaps Thornycroft, having lost interest in the heavy psv market, was particularly tardy in completing the order, for those Darings – no.6 was delivered in 1936 and nos.60/1/2 a year later – were the very last of their kind. The model was officially withdrawn in 1936, though a few more single deck Cygnets were made for export. Southampton seems to have been reviewing its double deck needs at that time, as, mixed up amongst the Thornycrofts and Guys was a single Leyland TD4, surely a more advanced vehicle than the Wolverhampton and Basingstoke offerings at that time. This fact must have finally registered because the TD4 and then the TD5 became the standard Southampton double decker until the advent of the wartime Arabs.

Roger Cox

31/08/16 – 16:08

Living in Burgess Road in the 1950’s, most of the Arabs I travelled in were on the relatively easy 15 & 15A routes, so I wonder if these were actually Arab II in their last lives. This would explain things like the exposed bulb interior lights (set in a conical mount as I recall). I can also recall how dim these lights were when the buses were stopped at Swaythling, with engines either idling or possibly even stopped. When it was time to move off, the interior became a veritable blaze of light as the generator kicked in. I don’t think batteries were high on the Council’s spending priorities! There was no need to go to Southsea funfair for a roller coaster ride, all you had to do was get on an Arab LUF single decker that was running late and go down Lances Hill…far scarier than the roller coaster & cheaper too.

David field

01/09/16 – 06:37

Incidentally, Southampton Corp’n were so enamoured with Thornycroft vehicles, the Borough Engineer’s Dep’t, bought dustcarts with Daring-type rads – see //tinyurl.com/hb6h68a
And, as another aside, I saw a Dennis ‘dustcart’ yesterday, an Elite6 model. I’d assumed that Dennis had given up making all but Alex-Dennis buses. Seems not.

Chris Hebbron

01/09/16 – 06:38

David, in MacFarlane-Watt’s book, he lists the Arab II members of the fleet, in the DTR series, and says they were delivered in 1944 to 1946. Most were 5LW but DTR907 onwards were 6LW. The first of the Arab III 6LW fleet is reported as being FCR194, delivered in 1948.

Pete Davies

01/09/16 – 10:08

One of my earliest posts was an ex – Southampton Thornycroft Daring in service in London in 1949. Here is the link
The last SHMD Daring survived with them until 1959! So those few buyers had their moneysworth out of them.It is a shame that none survived.
Thx, Andy H, for the headsup on books with photos of coach/dual-purpose Pompey vehicles.

Chris Hebbron

01/09/16 – 10:09

Chris, the Dennis Eagle dustcart business in Warwick is an entirely separate manufacturing concern from ADL in Guildford. When Dennis fell into the clutches of Mayflower, that ill fated outfit rebranded the Guildford business with the juvenile name “TransBus”. It sold off the Dennis Eagle municipal vehicle side in 1999, and that, together with the “Dennis” name, is now owned by the Spanish firm Ros Roca, which still has a manufacturing base in Warwick. The Guildford factory also made the well known fire appliances until 2007 when the reality of meeting spasmodic and small orders to differing specifications made production uneconomic. The Sabre and Rapier fire engines are regarded as the best machines of their type ever made, but nowadays appliances are built on much cheaper modified standard lorry chassis. Fire engine bodywork is still constructed in Guildford on all makes of chassis by John Dennis Coachbuilders, formed in 1985 by a grandson of one of the family company founders. An interesting point – in the Econic, Mercedes have copied the Dennis dustcart chassis concept whereby the engine is set back to give a low, unobstructed cab. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, and Dennis Eagle generally supply the dustcart body anyway.

Roger Cox

02/09/16 – 06:43

Thanks for the information Roger. I – and I’m sure many other people – had simply thought that a modern Dennis was a Dennis, whether it be a ‘dustcart’ or a bus. It just shows how the modern vehicle markets have evolved. I suppose it is not dis-similar to Volvo, where the car business was sold to Ford some years ago, yet the Volvo name continued to appear on both the cars and the commercial vehicles. (Following it’s later sale by Ford, Volvo Cars is I believe now owned by a Chinese company). Although it is somewhat sad to learn that Dennis Eagle is now under foreign ownership, at least – as is the case with DAF Trucks in Leyland – production remains in the UK, and continues to provide much-needed jobs in the engineering sector.

Brendan Smith

02/09/16 – 06:43

What a complex world we live in nowadays, Roger, but your clearly explained post makes the position clear. Underneath the huge chromed DENNIS name was a circular chrome disc with a complex pattern not decipherable at a distance. At least one member of the iconic Dennis family is still in business. This story is slightly less complex than that of Dunlop, which can be read in Wikipedia, if anyone has an hour to spare!!

Chris Hebbron

02/09/16 – 06:43

Peter Davies’ reference to A K MacFarlane Watt’s book on Southampton City Transport (1977) both helps and hinders on two recently posted topics.
First, pages 50 and 51 clearly show the interior lighting of the post war Arabs and presumably also extant on the lower decks of 164 and 167 and on both decks of 71.
His fleet listing of the Mk III does contain a major inconsistency; in that the chassis numbers carried by 104,106-108, 111-112 and 114 were a continuation of the Mk II series.The PSV Circle Fleet History (1993) has got this matter ‘spot-on’.
A key difference could be found in the cab layout:- the Mark II’s had the instruments display mounted in a wooden frame attached to the body below the driver’s windscreen; the Mk IIIs had the display mounted below the steering wheel contained in a black bakelite housing.
The comments about dim lights rings a very familiar bell!
When I worked at SCT in the mid 60’s, drivers were instructed never to leave a full ‘set on’ when the engine was off! Most of the time however the 12volt system worked pretty well and considerable attention was paid by the maintenance staff to keep vehicles’ batteries in good order.

Peter Elliott

02/09/16 – 06:44

Thanks for that info, Peter. I can remember the DTR regd Arabs, I’m sure on the 15A route. So these are probably what I’m thinking about. Would I be right in thinking they had fabricated rear & possibly front domes? So would have been utility bodies?

David Field

05/09/16 – 06:22

All bar one of the DTR utilities had been withdrawn by 1952 bar one which was eventually rebuilt into a tree lopper. I cannot recall therefore any detail relating to their bodywork.

Peter Elliott

16/12/16 – 15:09

I can vaguely remember that the colour scheme of the Southampton Corporation buses was changed around about the same time that Southampton was awarded City Status. I remember that the older buses that ran when I was a child had the indicator blinds that read TOWN CENTRE whilst the newer buses had the blinds that read CITY CENTRE. So I think that the colour scheme was changed when Southampton gained city status. My elderly parents both who came from Southampton advised me that back in the 1930s whilst the buses were blue and cream, the trams were red and cream. I do remember being taken on the old number 5 route on a bus that had a silver roof circa 1964. It would have the Blind indicator set for WOOLSTON (floating bridge) via Butts Road

C Phillips

17/12/16 – 13:32

C Phillips (16/12/16 – 15:09) refers to a change of colour scheme around the time Southampton gained city status.
Southampton was granted city status in 1964, but the change from the blue livery to red for the buses took place in 1945. Ashley Macfarlane-Watt’s book confirms Roger’s explanation above, i.e. that the blue livery did not wear well. To be fair, it would have been thoroughly tested in the previous 6 years, but I can also recall an article in “Buses” in the 1970s referring to problems of durability with blue paint, and hence the relative rarity of blue liveries.
The first 12 Leyland PD2s (301-12) were delivered in a red livery with just 2 narrow cream bands, but this did nothing to enhance the overall beauty of the PD2/Park Royal combination, so the livery was changed to include larger areas of cream fairly soon after those buses were delivered. As I understand it, from Mr Macfarlane-Watt’s book and contemporary photos, it was only those first Titans that ever carried that livery, and the subsequent Park Royal-bodied AEC Regent Vs and Leyland PD2As all carried the livery with more cream from new. The main roof panels (excepting the front and rear dome sections) were silver, but some buses ran with all cream roofs for a time. These vehicles retained their silver roofs throughout the rest of their careers with SCT.
When the East Lancs-bodied Regent Vs commenced delivery a year or so later, these carried all cream roofs, and had a deeper cream band below the upper deck windows.
There were, therefore, minor changes to the livery for some vehicles “around” the time that Southampton gained city status, but Mr Phillips’ recollection of a bus with a silver roof in 1964 would almost certainly be correct – at that stage, most of the fleet had them.

Nigel Frampton

18/12/16 – 07:13

Going further back in this thread, Chris Hebbron (22/08/16 – 09:23) says, with respect to private hires outside the Portsmouth city area: “However, some arrangement enabled the open-topped TD4’s to go to the Epsom Derby.”
This was probably allowed because the buses were not hired as a means of transport, but as mobile grandstands. Southampton used to hire their open top Arab for the same purpose, but they didn’t carry any passengers to or from the Derby.
I believe some operators did carry passengers on open toppers going to the Derby, but I would think those were for shorter distances. The prospect of 60 or 70 miles at a maximum of 35 m.p.h. on the top deck of an open topper would probably not appeal to most visitors to the Derby!

Nigel Frampton

18/12/16 – 13:26

Your comment about long journeys by bus, Nigel, reminds me of the London Transport RT’s which used to come to Southsea on Summer garage outings up to the early 1970’s. They would park on Southsea Common by Clarence Pier and the families would disgorge for the day. They would invariably display the home garage on the blind display, along with PRIVATE in the main box. I always recall a green one displaying Watford Garage, which, according to a quick look at G Maps, was nigh on 90 miles away, but there were no motorways/dual carriageways then, apart from the Kingston and Milford by-passes and a short straight stretch north of Horndean. A break at Hindhead and something like 40mph max would have taken about 4 hours. I’m assuming that crates of beer, with concomitant extra stops, were not in the equation!

Chris Hebbron

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

21/12/16 – 06:23

I am interested to find out what year Southampton Corporation did away with the rear destination blinds on their rear platform buses. When I lived in Southampton back in the 60’s, all of the buses as I recall had a destination blinds at the front and at the rear along with the route number. I recall on a trip back to Southampton finding that all of the buses had had their rear indicator blind windows painted over and only the route number was being shown.

C. Phillips

Bournemouth Corporation – Guy Arab II – FRU 223 – 16

Copyright Ray Soper

Bournemouth Corporation
1943
Guy Arab II 5LW
Weymann OB35F

This shot is from the Ray Soper “Gallery” contribution A Trolleybus tour in Bournemouth click on the title if you would like to view his Gallery and comments to it.
The shot is shown here for indexing purposes but please feel free to make any comment regarding this vehicle either here or on the gallery.

Yorkshire Woollen District – Guy Arab II – GKP 4 – 506

Yorkshire Woollen District - Guy Arab II 6LW - GKP 4 - 506

Yorkshire Woollen District Transport
1943
Guy Arab II 6LW
Roe H56R

Not the best photo but the subject is, this Guy was ex Maidstone & District. From my research there seems to some information that it was re-bodied in 1952 but nine years is not a long time to require a new body unless it was a single decker originally. Photo taken at Dewsbury bus station on a very dull wet day.
If you know about the re-body issue or have information about the bus when at Maidstone & District please let me know.

The early re-bodying issue is simple. Almost all bus bodies built from the middle war years used unseasoned (green) wood and sheet steel. The austerity design only required semi-skilled labour, hence no panel-beating and the bodies were only single-skinned inside. Even the ‘green’ wood provided was not what the bodies would usually be built from, such as ash. Thus, the bodies rusted and the wood framing literally disappeared with the years passing. At least, this was the experience of London Transport, who gave up their usual high standard of body maintenance on these vehicles as too expensive and disposed of the vehicles with indecent haste around 1952-53! Ironically, the chassis would have lasted forever! Oddly, Northern Counties were given permission to continue building metal-framed bodies during the war, which did make their bodies more durable than the others.

Chris Hebbron

Chris is right. Bodywork built during wartime was to a “Utility” design necessitated by the circumstances at the time, and most were clapped out by the early 1950s. This one was originally built in 1943 with a Weymann utility body, and was one of eight acquired by Yorkshire Woollen from Maidstone & District in 1945 as a direct swap for the same number of Daimlers which had been allocated, but not delivered, to Yorkshire. All the Guys were rebodied by Roe between December 1952 and January 1955, with this particular one being done in January 1953.

Dave Jessop

County Motors – Guy Arab II – CCX 801 – 70

Photo by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

County Motors
1945
Guy Arab II
Roe L27/26R

This photo was taken at the Huddersfield terminus and the bus behind is a Guy Wulfrunian probably owned by West Riding. The Wulfrunian was said to be very advanced for the time, but I have read somewhere that the only advanced thing about it was the all round air suspension, lets face it the rather strange layout of the engine and stairs didn”t exactly catch on did it, if you disagree leave a comment.
But back to the County Motors Arab II this bus apparently has been preserved but at the moment I have not been able to come up with a link to a dedicated website, if you know, let me know.
It started life with a wartime utility body but was re-bodied in 1953 by C. H. Roe Leeds and ended up two seats less at the end of it.
Hard to tell which engine this bus had as all Arab IIs had the extended radiator to accept either the six cylinder Gardner (6LW) engine of 8.4 litre or the shorter five cylinder 7.0 litre Gardner (5LW) engine. Although knowing Huddersfield as I do then I think this bus would of handled the surrounding hills much better with the larger 6LW engine, either that or the driver would have to be very good at changing gear, especially down.

Anything—pictures or info—on Guy Arabs is fascinating. Greatly enjoyed pictures and comments.
In Reading we had utility Arab 5LWs and 6LWs until 1949-50, when they were sold on. No 27 seemed to be everyone’s favourite. How I wish one had been preserved…!

Ian Thompson

I can confirm that County 70 has a 6LW engine. At the time of re-bodying in 1953 it was fitted with a transmission of contemporary (i.e. Arab IV) design, which makes it much easier to drive than the original twin-plate clutch and sliding-mesh gearbox of the Arab II. This bus is currently in the Dewsbury Bus Museum.

Peter Williamson

10/02/21 – 07:13

County 70 is preserved and is now semi-restored at the Dewsbury Bus Museum awaiting a full repaint.
Can confirm it is a West Riding Guy Wulfrunian behind. The other advanced engineering on it was that Wulfrunians had disc brakes.

Graham Crawshaw

11/02/21 – 07:17

Graham’s post has drawn my attention to my earlier statement about 70’s transmission. Since writing that, I have discovered that the last Arab IIs to be built had the constant mesh gearbox from new, and so it may be that 70’s transmission is original. Sorry about that.

Peter Williamson

12/02/21 – 06:10

The transmission of the wartime Guy Arab consisted of a twin plate clutch and a four speed sliding mesh (crash) gearbox that dated from the 1920s, in which the gear selector operated from right to left for upward changes. During the summer of 1945 Guy began fitting the Arab with a single plate clutch coupled with its new all constant mesh gearbox, in which, unusually for the time, even first gear had constant mesh engagement. This gearbox, which selected gears in the by then conventional left to right sequence, was designed and developed during the conflict, but pressures of wartime delayed its appearance in service. This transmission proved to be immensely robust and reliable and remained an option right to the end of Arab production.

Roger Cox

12/02/21 – 12:12

I was for a time part-owner of Provincial 55 which has the reverse gearbox. The gear lever was fitted with a red knob rather than a black one to indicate this; I am not sure whether this was an original Guy feature, or fitted by Provincial, but I believe the former. I don’t recall the box as being tricky to master, other that having to remember where to put the stick!

Alan Murray-Rust

13/02/21 – 07:07

My Arab which also has a reverse gearbox has a black knob. Issue with the gearbox is that unlike Leylands or Bristols you have to place the gear lever the others allowing you to use the selector box sides for guidance.

Roger Burdett

13/02/21 – 07:08

The red gear lever knob was originally fitted to the later constant mesh box to indicate the correct left to right sequence. The old Guy gearbox had a black knob. No doubt things got swapped about in the course of time.

Roger Cox

13/02/21 – 07:09

I’ve not met any Guys with the reverse gearbox, but those with the constant-mesh box usually had maroon gear lever knobs. Even the Daimler CCG models, which had the same Guy gearbox, had maroon knobs.

Peter Williamson

14/02/21 – 07:00

London Transport lopped a couple of inches off their reverse gearbox Arabs., compared with the later ones.

Chris Hebbron

Yorkshire Woollen District – Guy Arab II – HD 7424 – 500

Photograph by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Yorkshire Woollen District
1943
Guy Arab II 6LW
Roe H56R

Here is a a good shot of a Guy Arab II going about its business in the Yorkshire mill town area of Dewsbury. The 6LW after the make and model means that this bus had a Gardner 8.4 litre 6 cylinder diesel engine there was only one alternative at the time a Gardner 5LW 7.0 litre 5 cylinder diesel engine. This bus had a straight forward four speed crash gearbox and a vacuum assisted hydraulic braking system, the original body on this bus would have been of a utility style, all very basic but then it was built during wartime. It was rebodied around 1953 there is more on that subject and an excellent comment for the reason why here.

12/08/12 – 07:29

Please could anyone tell me what year Central Works Savile town closed as I worked their from 1973 to 1978

Ray

22/10/12 – 16:56

In answer to Ray’s question, when did YWD Central Works Dewsbury close, the time was August 1983 when the entire operation, including staff was transferred to Belle Isle at Wakefield. The function was then combined with the West Riding central works. A new machine shop and fuel injection-“pump” shop was then established as previously all fuel injection work was carried out at the Dewsbury site. I too worked at YWD, and started work there as an apprentice fitter in July 1963

David Howram

Blue Line – Guy Arab II – FPT 205

Blue Line (Samuel Morgan) Ltd.
1943
Guy Arab II
Roe H31/25R

Yet another Independent bus operator from the Doncaster area, the Samuel Morgan part of the name is from a take over in 1930, Samuel Morgan operated under the name of Gwen Motors.
The above bus was not new to Blue Line it was originally owned by Sunderland District and was number 176 in there fleet until 1961 when purchased by Blue Line. Of course with a build date of 1943 it would of had a utility body, not sure who built the original body but it was rebodied by Roe in 1953, if you know leave a comment.
Blue Line also owned Reliance who they took over in 1949 and carried on running it under its own name they also had an ex Sunderland District Guy Arab II registration FPT 207.

I can remember the 2 old guys known as 205 & 207. One had a conventional 4 speed Westlinghouse crash gearbox the other a so called Chinese gearbox where 1st gear was where 3rd should be and 2nd where 4th should have been this could cause all sorts of gear grating if you forgot which bus you were driving.

David A Oglesby

I know the feeling only too well David – the two Guy Arabs that we had at Samuel Ledgard (JUA 762/3) had the “back to front” gearboxes and often caught out the less interested among the driving staff. They were fitted with dark maroon knobs on the gear levers – a somewhat optimistic method of alerting drivers, especially in the dark !!

Chris Youhill

I think I read somewhere on the net that the above bus came to a sorry end, on its side in a field, having got too close to the ditch at the side of the road, no one injured.

Spencer

London Transport also had a a sizeable number of austerity Guys with both reverse and conventional gearbox ‘gates’. If my memory serves me right, they got over the problem by sawing 2-3 inches off the non-standard gear levers. No problem in the dark, but whether the drivers got backache from bending to the left with every gear change is not recorded!

Chris Hebbron

19/10/11 – 16:15

Regarding Spencer’s note above, here //www.flickr.com/photos/8755708@N07/4423130081/in/photostream/ is a set of pictures showing the accident and recovery operations. It was the end of it’s life but reading that the others like it were withdrawn in 1968 and noting that the Honda Cub moped carries a 1967 registration, it probably only hastened it’s demise by a short time. There are some nice pictures in the series contained in the link.

Richard Leaman

21/10/11 – 06:45

I was once a member of the now defunct Spenborough Bus Enthusiasts Club in Cleckheaton and we organised a trip in a similar Roe bodied Guy Arab of Yorkshire Woollen District to view the Blue Line Arab. Somewhere along the way in Doncaster a wrong turning was taken and a low railway bridge was encountered which entailed a long reverse manoeuvre. I recall the drivers name was David Rothery last heard of at East Yorkshire Motor Services. I wonder if anybody else can remember the trip. It was in the early 60s.

Philip Carlton

13/04/20 – 07:51

FPT 207 and probably 205 were built with Picktree utility bodies.

Duncan Robinson

15/04/20 – 06:33

Wouldn’t the body builder have been Pickering of Wishaw, near Glasgow rather than Picktree, who I think only worked post-war on buses for Northern General and associated companies? Looking at one of the entries under the Picktree bodywork entry, it’s stated that the firm was founded on 6th Sept 1947, lasting as a coach builder till c.1954, but continuing until later in the car business. Pickering was one of the designated body-builders of WWII, although not one of the major participants. Their bodies were not renowned for being a long-lasting product, even if many utilities could be suspect in durability!

Michael Hampton

Llandudno and Colwyn Bay – Guy Arab II – GUF 159 – 3

Photograph by “unknown” if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Llandudno and Colwyn Bay Electric Railway Co
1945
Guy Arab II
Northern Counties UH30/26R

I am, basically, a tram and trolleybus enthusiast, and, unfortunately, I never had the pleasure of sampling the delights of the LCBER. By 1955, money was in short supply, and the trams were just about worn away, and the company decided to switch to motorbus operation.
I did sample these, in 1956/7, and remember them with great affection. I think that the history of these buses, which succumbed to the mighty Crosville in 1961, has been largely overlooked, perhaps because of the nature of the tram to bus conversion, which was particularly noxious for a hard-core of true bred tramway enthusiasts!
There were a dozen or so ex Southdown utility Arab 11s (as shot above), with 3 makes of body, supplemented by 2 later East Kent examples. There was also an ex-East Kent TD5 used only for the initial phase of driver training, and 2 ex Newcastle NCB bodied Daimler COG5s of 1939 vintage. One of the latter was converted to open top in 1956, and there were plans to likewise convert some of the Guys. I can vividly remember riding on the Guys, which reminded me at the time, of Bristol K5Gs, probably because of the crunchy gear change, not always well executed, and the growl of the 5LW.
It would be very interesting to hear if other enthusiasts remember this fleet with the same affection as I do, and if there are any other photos out there!
I do have an exact fleet list should interest demand it!

Photograph and Copy contributed by John Whitaker

11/05/12 – 08:09

Looks like Mostyn Street, Llandudno. Can anybody with more detailed knowledge of the area confirm or otherwise?

Stephen Ford

11/05/12 – 09:38

This photo has brought very fond memories of by first visit to Llandudno in 1956. Seeing these Guy Arabs operating as an independent Tramway Company gave me a feeling of David and Goliath as Crosville seemed to be the main operator in the area.
For once I ignored the Crosville buses and rode on the LCBER buses to their depot at Rhos-on-Sea where a few trams still remained in the yard. I have always found bus companies operating with Tramway names fascinating as they reflect a proud heritage. How many other bus companies were operating with Tramway Company names in the fifties? Sadly LCBER was taken over by Crosville in 1961.

Richard Fieldhouse

11/05/12 – 12:00

One company that springs to mind is the Northern subsidiary Tyneside Tramways and Tramroads. A title they kept until they disappeared into the parent company in the seventies.

Chris Hough

12/05/12 – 07:44

I think Bristol Tramways and Carriage Company Limited was not renamed Bristol Omnibus Company Limited until the 1950s. Now First Somerset & Avon Limited it must surely be one of the oldest legal entities in the public transport field still operating as it was incorporated on October 1st 1887

Nigel Turner

12/05/12 – 07:46

Great posting and wonderful photo John, thanks very much. It just goes to show that many of the most interesting items on OBP are about lesser known operators, and LCBER are an excellent example of that. They were clearly very cost conscious, buying wartime bodied Guy Arabs; many operators had rebodied such vehicles years earlier, and 11/12 year old ones were hardly in the first flush of youth. It’s also interesting that they bought a Leyland TD5 for driver training when they had no Leylands in service, as is the decision to buy the two Daimlers with, presumably, pre-selector gearboxes, amongst the (very) crash gearbox Guys. And how did passengers react to the replacement of smooth and quiet electric traction with trundling 5LW’s? A final question, John – what was LCBER’s livery? It looks smart in your photo, I must say.

Roy Burke

12/05/12 – 07:49

I can remember Bristol, and Bath Tramways in the 1950s when I was stationed at RAF Yatesbury in Wiltshire.

Jim Hepburn

12/05/12 – 07:51

I think this bus’s registration is GUF 153, which was Southdown’s 453, a Guy Arab II, 5LW. (Ch: FD27379), built Feb 1945. Its Northern Counties body (3737) started as H30/26R, was rebuilt to H28/26R and re-engined as a 6LW in Dec 1950, then re-engined to 5LW again prior to withdrawal and sale in July 1956. It was one to escape being converted to an open-topper, like many of its cousins.
Whether they realised it or not, they bought wisely with a Guy with Northern Counties bodies, who were given dispensation during the war to build metal-framed bodies, which would have given them far longer lives then their ‘green’-wood, wooden-framed cousins. The windows were rather shallow and out-of-proportion, but they were still rather handsome beasts and looked just as nice beheaded!

Chris Hebbron

12/05/12 – 07:53

Sadly, Chris, the Tyneside and Tramroads name was abandoned in 1965 and thereafter the rather more prosaic Tyneside Omnibus Company had to suffice until it became one of the last Northern subsidiaries (along with Gateshead) to be fully absorbed in, I think, 1976.

Alan Hall

12/05/12 – 08:15

Apologies for the wrong registration GUF 351. Later access to a fleet list, and closer perusal of the photo, has shown this bus to be GUF 159.
As Stephen says, it is in Mostyn Street, Llandudno as far as I can tell.
This bus was the second No.3, being purchased in 1957, to replace an identical vehicle, original No.3, GUF 128.
The Northern Counties bodied examples were metal framed, and this would explain the earlier withdrawal of these buses compared to their Weymann and Park Royal sisters. It would have been much easier for former tramway engineers to maintain a composite body! I understand that a bus fleet list for LCBER will shortly be included in the fleet list section

John Whitaker

12/05/12 – 17:15

Didn’t Bath Electric Tramways and Bath Tramways Motor Co survive until c.1972, when absorbed into BOC?

Philip Rushworth

12/05/12 – 17:26

Just to answer Roy`s question about the LCBER bus livery; this was a deep crimson and cream, being the original tram colours from opening in 1907, until the green livery was adopted in the mid 1920s
I presume they did not continue with the green livery after tramway abandonment, in order to differentiate their vehicles from the Tilling green of Crosville.
As Richard says, it was also very unusual for me too, to let Bristols go by, but this was a notable and worthy exception!

John Whitaker

19/05/12 – 15:18

Further to my previous comment, I can now confirm the change of names for the following-
Gateshead & District Tramways Co.Ltd. became Gateshead & District Omnibus Co. Ltd. on July 12th 1950
Bristol Tramways & Carriage Co Ltd became Bristol Omnibus Co Ltd on May 16th 1957
Tyneside Tramways & Tramroads Co.Ltd. became Tyneside Omnibus Co.Ltd. on March 4th 1965
and surely last of all –
Bath Tramways Motor Co. Ltd. became Wessex National Ltd. on August 9th 1974

Nigel Turner

21/05/12 – 17:23

Having asked the question, many thanks Nigel for the details of ex Tramway Companies operating buses in England. Another one that I am aware of is the Rothesay Tramway Company that ceased tramway operations on the Isle of Bute in 1936 but was operating bus services on the Isle with the tramway name to at least to 1951. Scottish postings do seem to be absent at moment so perhaps someone with Rothesay details can assist.

Richard Fieldhouse

23/06/12 – 05:57

I’ve only ever visited Llandudno once, and I must have been 6 or younger, as we went by bus from Bolton – moved from there in 1954, when I was 6 – to Liverpool, then by steamer to Llandudno. It was a day trip, and my parents commented frequently about the fact that it was so foggy on the way, we were in time to disembark and join the queue to return. So, I never saw the trams or their replacement buses!

Pete Davies

23/06/12 – 21:23

When I was about five years old (1958ish) I took a steamer ride out into the Irish Sea from Llandudno aboard a vessel called the St Tudno. A few years later it sank. Moving back to the buses, Pete must have had a very long day to go and see some fog. There were no direct bus routes from Bolton to Liverpool until after deregulation (and even then Merseybus’s 510 service was short-lived), so the trip would have involved changing at Wigan (to the 320) or Atherton (to the 39 from “Manchester” – actually Salford).

Incidentally (here comes a bit of shameless self-promotion!) my new book on “Independent Buses in North Wales” will be out in the next few weeks and it includes the history of the L&CBER along with 29 other indies in the region. Just thought I’d let you know.

Neville Mercer

21/10/12 – 08:02

Lovely photograph of No 3 on Mostyn Street. I was captivated by the trams in 1943 and was heartbroken when they finished in 1956. I was 13 at the time and, like another contributor, only rode on the “Red Buses” when visiting the area. I am currently developing the definitive history of the L&CBER and am constantly looking for personal memories, photographs and memorabilia, particularly geographical tickets and timetables. Good photocopies are all that is required – not original documents, as it is the information only that I require. Should anyone be able to help, it would be very much appreciated and they could contact me through this site.

Geoff Price

06/01/14 – 07:45

I remember these buses when I used to go to stay at my Nains in Penrhynside. They were not liked by myself or the locals who did not want the trams to stop running.
Locals referred to them as the “Rock & Roll” buses which summed up the ride they gave.

Trefor Davies

06/01/14 – 09:30

That’s a turnaround, Trefor. My experience and that of many others was that it was the trams which gave you the ‘Rock ‘n Roll’ treatment, especially those with four-wheel trucks. I travelled a lot on trams when a boy (London) and am glad to say that an aunt of mine humoured me by going on them for me instead of the far faster Tube trains, bless her!

Chris Hebbron

06/01/14 – 09:36

In the early 1950s the delightful Hastings trolleybuses – by then operated by Maidstone and District – proudly carried the fleetname “Hastings Tramways Company.” As a young enthusiast I found this delightful – and I also loved the description of the majestic Hastings and St.Leonards Promenade on the destination blinds – “FRONT.”

Chris Youhill

06/01/14 – 14:16

Re Chris Y’s comment on the Hastings destination “Front” if you go to the outer Hebrides you will find buses in Stornoway bearing the destination “Back” – a village around 6 miles out on the road to North Tolsta.

Stephen Ford

06/01/14 – 16:44

“Front” and “Back”! Now that would make quite a route to rival Lands End to John O’Groats, especially if it were undertaken in a 5LW powered utility Guy Arab (max speed 28mph).

Roger Cox

07/01/14 – 06:59

And, of course, on the return journey southward you would be travelling Back to Front!

Stephen Ford

07/01/14 – 08:14

Reminds me of the WWI newspaper headline: Haigh flies back to front.

David Oldfield

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

03/02/14 – 07:24

I used to catch the bus home from this stop when at Mostyn school its out side a the bakers Dale Jones which we nicknamed stale Jones We would try and catch a “red” bus because we discovered we could open the destination board on the top deck and wind it on, As these still had the previous routes on them it was great fun to watch the waiting customers at the next stops hoping to catch a bus to Rhos on Sea as the Glasgow city centre only pulled up, as they say Happy days

Edinburgh Corporation – Guy Arab II – JWS 594 – 314

Edinburgh Corporation
1943
Guy Arab II
Duple/Nudd H31/24R

This unusual but nonetheless attractive-looking Guy Arab II was new in 1943 to London Transport as its G77 (GLL 577), and was originally fitted with utility bodywork by Park Royal. A Gardner 5LW engine provided the power. It was withdrawn from London service in 1952 and sold to Edinburgh C.T, who had the chassis rebodied by Duple/Nudd in 1953. As can be seen, it was given a full front and concealed radiator by the bodybuilder. However, the front nearside ‘windscreen’ and side window next to the bonnet were not glazed, probably as an aid to maintenance as regards access to the engine. Interestingly it was re-registered by ECT on rebodying. Could this indicate that the chassis was fully overhauled by ECT prior to the new body being fitted? The photo shows the vehicle in preservation, and isn’t that livery just beautiful?

Photograph and Copy contributed by Brendan Smith

29/12/13 – 10:00

Thanks for posting, Brendan. I’ve not yet seen this vehicle “in the flesh” since I started photographing buses, but I do recall seeing other Edinburgh vehicles with the strange feature you mention. I think the others were Leyland Titans.

Pete Davies

29/12/13 – 14:57

My knowledge of Nudd Bros as a bodybuilder is practically zero but the one useless piece of information that I do recall is that Mrs. Nudd was formerly a Miss. Mabel Barton whose father was not exactly unknown in the bus world.

Nigel Turner

30/12/13 – 07:18

In an era when there was still a shortage of buses, London Transport were forbidden from selling surplus buses to BET competitors, a ridiculous restriction. So, apart from many going abroad, the largest single other purchases were 100 Daimler CWA6’s to Belfast Corporation and 60 LT austerity Guy Arabs were bought by Edinburgh Corporation buses, I think, for tram replacement. They were given fleet numbers 301 to 360 (JWS 581 to 640). Leyland-style glass-fibre fronts replaced the originals when they were overhauled in 1959. Most of them lasted until the late 1960’s. I wonder if the registrations were changed just for the sake of having Scottish ones.

Chris Hebbron

30/12/13 – 07:18

There were sixty of these buses, purchased to enable the Edinburgh tramway system to be abandoned within very tight budgetary constraints. London Transport wanted to get rid of all its utilities as soon as possible. The Guy Arabs, many of which had crash gearboxes with the “wrong way round” (upwards from right to left) gear selection, were the least popular of the four utility types in the fleet. The unfrozen TD7 STDs were pretty unpopular with drivers too, but there were only eleven of these buses compared with 435 of the Guys. Understandably, LT wanted to get the best price possible for these quite young machines of relatively low mileage, but the British Transport Commission, to which LT had to accede, stipulated that no BTC vehicle disposals were to be sold outside the group, unless for export or non psv use. This was a time of an ascendant public transport industry, and the BTC’s paranoia in respect of independent and even municipal operators surely cried out for some Freudian counselling. The LT Bristol Ks were passed on painlessly to Crosville, Lincolnshire and Brighton, Hove & District, and the Daimler D fleet, with preselective gearboxes and, for the most part, AEC 7.7 engines, could be kept a bit longer, but the Guys posed a problem. The Scottish Bus Group would certainly take some, but no other market within BTC existed. Several did go for export, but many ended up languishing in Cohen’s scrapyard at Feltham. Determined to get a better price for its Guys, LT turned to W. North of Leeds, who became the main purchaser of ex London buses for several years. Under pressure from all sides both within and without the bus industry, the BTC finally relaxed its embargo on sales outside the group in December 1952. However, before this, in November 1951, Edinburgh Corporation approached Guy Motors with a proposal to purchase 60 ex LT wartime Arab chassis that Guy would renovate and update for rebodying. Entirely happy to comply, LT found itself up against the BTC rule, but, not wishing to lose such a satisfactory unit price for these Guys, LT approached James Amos of SBG to intercede on its behalf. Despite being in different ownership camps, the SBG and Edinburgh Corporation had a harmonious relationship, particularly as Scottish Omnibuses stood to take over the Musselburgh tram route when it was abandoned. The ploy succeeded, though the buses were sold direct to Edinburgh, not via Guy Motors, on the strict understanding that they were to be scrapped when Edinburgh had finally finished with them. Edinburgh’s engineers were permitted to pick their own vehicles from the withdrawn fleet, and collected their chosen sixty from Edgware garage in April and May 1952. The bodies were removed and scrapped, and the chassis were overhauled and updated to such an extent that they were given new chassis numbers, and hence new registrations. The Gardner 5LW powerplant was retained, though 314 received a 6LW in 1963. New Duple H31/25R bodywork of lightweight construction was ordered, though the major part of the work was undertaken at Nudd Bros and Lockyer in Kegworth, Leicestershire, later to be renamed Duple Midland. These bodies were of a truly spartan specification, to be emulated later by the early examples of the MCW group Orion. The complete vehicle weighed only 6tons 14cwt 1qtr. No opening windows were originally provided, and the apparent full front lacked glazing round the bonnet, possibly to improve engine access, but equally probably to save weight. Originally, the front panels had a set of horizontal polished strips, but in 1958/9 a glass fibre front panel visually similar to the standard Leyland tin front was fitted. Opening windows to the saloons were provided at the same time. To be pedantic, the solitary preserved Arab above – Edinburgh kept its promise to scrap these buses upon their withdrawal between 1967 and 1969, and only No. 314 survives – has the original form of shiny stripwork applied over the later extended Leyland clone bonnet for its 6LW, and is thus not entirely accurate, but this is a minor point. It is good to see this preserved example of a truly remarkable fleet of buses. I must acknowledge that the bulk of this detail has been gleaned from Ken Blacker’s excellent comprehensive book “London’s Utility Buses” (published by Capital Transport).

Roger Cox

30/12/13 – 07:19

Got a bit complicated – but when was it ever any different? Nudd Bros was renamed Duple (Midland) and produced metal framed (mostly) buses. Willowbrook was then purchased, but strictly speaking remained separate. Eventually Yeates was taken on board. All three were Loughborough based and became the Duple (Midland) operation – Duple (Northern) being the former Burlingham. Nudd Bros, Burlingham and Yeates were dropped as marques but Willowbrook became the “face” of Duple (Midland). During this time, it built many double deck buses – mostly Regent Vs and Atlanteans. When Duple began to feel the pinch, Willowbrook was sold off as a going concern. [It produced it’s own designs from then on but increasingly it depended on work from NBC – often by under-cutting Duple and Plaxton on tenders. The quality was, by now, very suspect.]

David Oldfield

30/12/13 – 09:27

Nudd Brothers and Lockyer, were originally based at a small workshop in Chilwell, Nottinghamshire which was opposite the R.E.M.E 38 Central Workshop.

Roger Broughton

30/12/13 – 10:08

Thx, Roger, for fleshing out my more meagre story of LT’s dilemma in selling perfectly good buses (well chassis at least), but many had had their bodies ovehauled or had sound NCB-bodied Guys. I do recall that 314 was due to be converted to a tree-lopper and skulled around for some time waiting for it to be done. In the end, it never happened and the vehicle went for preservation, happily, for the story of these buses, especially 314’s, is really unusual and interesting.

Chris Hebbron

30/12/13 – 11:12

For anyone with an interest in Londons utility buses, I really must recommend the Capital Transport publication by Ken Blacker. “Londons Utility Buses”. It is an absolute gem, full of detail, superb photographs, and disposal references, and is a must for all who loved the “utilities” in any fleet!
Alan Townsin’s TP book, “The Utilities”, is, of course, the complete reference work.

John Whitaker

30/12/13 – 14:46

I have been searching, but to no avail, for details of Edinburgh’s other utility rebuilds, with Alexander bodies. I believe these were all Daimlers, some of the CWG5 variety, but seem to remember reading that some were CWA6, and that they were “Gardnerised” upon rebuilding. This was, if correct, a most rare occurrence!
Can any of you experts throw any light on this happening, or is my memory finally collapsing?!

John Whitaker

31/12/13 – 07:16

Am I correct in thinking that some of these were sold to the SBG and were lengthened and given saloon bodies or did I dream it?

Chris Hough

31/12/13 – 12:07

S.M.T did indeed rebuild utility Guys ex London Transport into 30ft single deckers.

Stephen Bloomfield

01/01/14 – 09:07

re my last comment:
S.O.L. dismantled 23 ex London Transport Guy utilities. Each chassis was lengthened to 30ft and rebodied, 17 with S.O.L. B39F bodies and 6 with S.O.L. C35F bodies. As with the Edinburgh vehicles they were re-registered JWS 122 TO 131, KSC 918/919 and LSC 91 TO 101. 5 bus bodied vehicles went to S.O.L and the remainder to Highland Omnibuses.
Also the first two vehicles rebuilt for Edinburgh received Duple bodies.
Western S.M.T also rebodied a number of ex London Transport Utilities. As with the Edinburgh and S.O.L. vehicles they were reregistered.
This information came from my own records and also from a recent publication by the PSV Circle about Guy Heavy Chassis.

Stephen Bloomfield

01/01/14 – 09:08

Stephen, I wasn`t aware SMT had body building facilities.
Are you sure this work wasn`t done by Alexanders?

Jim Hepburn

01/01/14 – 12:38

S.O.L constructed the bodies at their Marine Works using Alexander frames. Marine Works subsequently became part of Scottish Bus Group Engineering in 1985.
Marine Works also constructed 32 Duple Vista style bodies on to Bedford OB chassis. 20 of these vehicles were subsequently rebodied by Burlingham.
The same works also constructed 60 Bedford OWBs to a design very similar to Duple.
In 1955 S.O.L also bodied a single decker using Albion Claymore parts. Fleet number S1 LWS 926.

Stephen Bloomfield

01/01/14 – 13:20

Didn’t SMT also build utility bodies on Bedford OWB chassis during WW2? I think they were undistinguishable from the Duple and Mulliner versions.

Michael Hampton

02/01/14 – 08:27

David, Alan Townsin’s book on Duple doesn’t quite agree with your history of Duple Midland. Nudd Bros & Lockyer were the original Duple Midland, but they were at Kegworth, not Loughborough. New premises in Loughborough were obtained by Duple, and the operation was in the process of gradually moving there when Willowbrook were acquired, making three Midland factories in all. Rationalisation (largely glossed over) eventually resulted in only the Willowbrook factory remaining open, using Duple (Midland) as a badge name for some products. There is no mention of Yeates at all, and I have no reason to believe they were ever involved with Duple; as I recall it they simply stopped building bodies and remained as a dealer.

Peter Williamson

02/01/14 – 09:29

As I’ve said before, Peter, when you provide a thumbnail you provide the opportunity for mis-reading or mis-interpretation. Your accurate reading of Alan Townsin’s book doesn’t substantially disagree with my thumbnail. As for Yeates. I only recently discovered that myself – but cannot for the life of me find the source. They “closed” in 1964 and it could be a case of the “NCBs”. The Yeates company didn’t fold, they just closed the coachworks. When NCB did fold, the machinery and an amount of timber were sold to C H Roe. Possibly the same happened with Yeates – selling machinery and parts to Duple (Midland)/Willowbrook.

David Oldfield

03/01/14 – 12:51

Re David Oldfields comments about Yeates. The link below may shed more light on the closure of the coachbuilding section of Yeates :- //archive.commercialmotor.com/

Stephen Bloomfield

04/01/14 – 07:55

Thanks for this, Stephen. The link goes to the archive home page, but the issue in question is 4th October 1963.
Duple took over Yeates body works (next door to Willowbrook) but not the staff, and agreed to complete outstanding work and continue to service and repair Yeates coachwork.
I’m surprised the Duple book doesn’t mention this.

Peter Williamson

My fault that. Link fixed.

05/01/14 – 16:46

Roger, I had no idea of the spartan and lightweight nature of the Duple/Nudd-bodied Guys. The fully-fronted styling and ornamentation around the grille give the impression of something ‘a cut above’, whereas in reality it sounds like, as my late Grandma would have said, a case of “all outward show”. Sadly, as you mention, ECT persisted with this back to basics policy and followed on with the infamous Orion-bodied Titans. At least the beautiful livery was retained as a saving grace. David O, thanks for clarifying the situation re Duple, Nudd, Willowbrook, Yeates and Burlingham. As you say, it did get a bit complicated. Willowbrook’s quality certainly was suspect, following its sell- off. West Yorkshire were to have taken delivery of fifteen Willowbrook coach-bodied Leyland Leopards in 1981, but in the end only received six (2594-99). They were not well received, and passengers complained that the seats were very uncomfortable, especially on long-distance journeys. The overall finish appeared cheap and cheerful when compared to Plaxton’s products, and the Willowbrooks were soon down graded to dual-purpose vehicles. The remaining nine Leopard chassis were temporarily stored for some months at WY’s Harrogate depot, as Willowbrook were experiencing a backlog of work and hadn’t room to store them. The chassis were later despatched to Duple for bodying, becoming WY’s 2600-08. What a sad end for Willowbrook, and who would have guessed that Duple would eventually close its doors some years later?

Brendan Smith

06/01/14 – 07:59

Duple was a national giant when Plaxton was still a local upstart in the early fifties. At the same time Silver Service Darley Dale were receiving Regal IVs with Willowbrook coach bodies and a little later Black & White Motorways received slightly more modern versions of the same body on Reliances. These were full blown coaches – as were the later Viscount and Viceroys – and ranked among close seconds to Burlingham’s Seagull for style. [These were also Willowbrook names before Duple hi-jacked them.] Yes Brendan, with Duple and Willowbrook both, how are the mighty fallen.

David Oldfield

22/05/21 – 06:49

re Roger Cox’s comments on 314. I recall frequent meetings with it when it was first preserved and on many occasions afterwards. It had the 6LW removed and a 5LW installed, and at the same time the nose was restored to the original profile and a replica chrome front constructed as shown in the photograph. I have photos in my collection showing the 6LW ‘snout’ and the revised profile after it was re-engined.

Dr. George Fairbairn

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

07/02/22 – 06:33

I have a BSA Bantam D1 ?1952, Registration No. JWS 495. I have no paperwork for this vehicle and am trying to trace its origins in order to, hopefully, keep its Reg.
I noticed, in the above photo, that the bus Reg. was JWS 594.
I wonder if my Bantam and this bus were registered in the same area and if so, if there might be some existing County documentation on my BSA which I might be able to present to the DVLA in order to keep the Bantam’s original Reg.

John Boyd

08/02/22 – 06:12

Bus Lists on the Web shows a few JWS registered vehicles. The WS registration series was issued in Edinburgh.
Edinburgh Corporation had four new buses (JWS 67-70) which are shown as new in July 1952. They also had about sixty former London Transport Guy Arab buses rebuilt which were re-registered JWS 581-640. JWS 581 is shown as registered in November 1952. This was followed by JWS 582-640 which are shown as registered between February and July 1953.
Looking at the list it can be seen that these were delivered quite randomly therefore it can be said that the block of registrations would have been reserved in advance.
To obtain the list of the above go to www.buslistsontheweb Search, Registration, Key â€˜JWS’ to see the whole series
Highland Omnibuses also had some single deck Guy rebuilds which became JWS 122-131. The exact months for these are not shown, only the years – 1952 (JWS 122-127) and 1953 (JWS 128-131).

David Slater

London Transport – Guy Arab II – HGC 130 – G351

London Transport
1946
Guy Arab II 5LW
Park Royal H30/26R

Here we have a Guy Arab II with a Park Royal H56R body, new to London Transport. This vehicle is part of the London Bus Preservation Trust collection, formerly at Cobham but now at Brooklands. Once more, we have a difference of information between Jenkinson and PSVC2012. Jenkinson says it has a UH56R body and dates from 1945, while the PSVC does not mention the utility element and says it dates from 1946. I’m sure that they cannot both be right, unless it was built in 1945 but did not enter service until 1946. Someone out there will know no doubt!

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

03/03/16 – 15:02

It looks like a utility to me,although possibly one of the ‘relaxed’ utility batch judging by the number of opening windows.

David Wragg

03/03/16 – 15:04

According to Ken Glazier’s London Bus File, G351 was taken into stock on 5 January 1946. Bodies constructed in 1945 were to relaxed Austerity specification with rounded front and rear domes.

John Gibson

03/03/16 – 15:05

Pete, according to the excellent Ian’s Bus Stop website, many of these Park Royal/NCB Utility-specification buses (G319-G357) didn’t enter service until January/February/March 1946. G351 is documented as entering service in February 1946. There can be little doubt that they were in fact built in late 1945 to wartime specifications, but it depends on which date we prefer to use.

Paul Haywood

03/03/16 – 15:06

I seem to have omitted the location and date when I submitted this to Peter for consideration: Wisley Airfield, on 5 April 2009.

Pete Davies

04/03/16 – 05:53

The unimpeachable authority on this subject is Ken Blacker’s book ‘London’s Utility Buses’. The final LT consignment of Park Royal H30/26R bodies on Guy Arab II chassis was delivered in two batches. G319 to 357 arrived at Chiswick between 17 November 1945 and 3 March 1946. G351 itself was accepted into stock on 3 January 1946, which certainly means that it was constructed in the last weeks of 1945. G431 to 435, the final batch of these buses and London Transport’s very last utility Guys, were accepted between 18 and 30 March 1946, and probably were built earlier in that year. G319 to 339 retained the old sliding mesh gearbox with ‘back to front’ gear lever positions and the two plate clutch inherited from the pre war Arab model. Those from G340 onwards had the new constant mesh gearbox with conventional selector positions coupled with a single plate clutch, a specification that was carried forward into the postwar Arab III. The Park Royal bodies on these last LPTB Guys made no concessions in appearance whatsoever towards the relaxed utility specifications by then prevailing. Even the stark upper deck front ventilators were retained after Weymann and Northern Counties had abandoned this feature. In fact the only ‘relaxations’ incorporated were tubular framed (cushioned) seats and winding windows. The complete vehicle with its composite construction bodywork weighed 7 tons 5 cwts, compared with 7 tons 6 cwts for the last Weymann bodied London Guy utilities and 7 tons 13 cwts for the excellent metal framed Northern Counties Arabs. All the London Transport Arabs had been withdrawn by December 1952, the newest then being just over six years old, though the indifferent quality of construction materials was evident in bodywork deterioration. Upon its sale by LT, HGC 130, the former G351, went in 1953 to the very satisfied Guy Arab operator, Burton-on-Trent Corporation who had the bodywork refurbished by Roe. Burton then ran it until withdrawal in 1967, after which it thankfully found its way into preservation.

Here are some pictures of this bus taken during the HCVC Brighton runs between 1969 and 1972 by which time some sag in the body waistrail was beginning to become evident.

Roger Cox

04/03/16 – 06:44

Thank you, gents, for your thoughts on the true date of this bus.

Pete Davies

07/03/16 – 06:23

Age apart, it is one of the most attractive utilities I have seen, only those from Southdown come anywhere near. It just shows that a good livery can lift even a mundane design.

David Wragg

27/08/17 – 09:08

I was the very lucky person who purchased G351, or Burton 70 as it was then, in 1967. I met Reg Stack a former Park Royal employee and he stated that the body was built in October 1945 and it was delivered to London Transport in November 1945, thus to my mind it is a 1945 vehicle but of course some of the ‘anoraks’ would insist that it was a 1946 vehicle. I presently own two Guy Arabs that were first licensed on the 1st January 1956 and again the ‘anoraks’ insist that they are 1956 vehicles. All I can say is that Guy Motors and Park Royal were very clever in constructing two chassis and bodies in one day and delivering to their operator!!!

John Lines

13/02/21 – 07:23

As an old Burtonian I remember HGC 130 shortly after it was integrated into the Burton Corporation fleet. It was purchased from LT along with five other utility 5LW Arab IIs, probably in 1953, and added to Burton’s modest fleet of utility Arab IIs and immediate post war Arab IIIs, all 5LW. The ex LT buses were numbered 65-70 in the Burton fleet, and were slightly different from the Burton Arab IIs in that they had smaller headlights and rails along the underside of the body, which the Burton buses didn’t have. All had Park Royal bodies except 66 which was Weymann. All the ex-LT buses were refurbished before being put out to service, and I read somewhere that the refurbishment costs exceeded the purchase cost of the original buses. They all mostly kept their utility look throughout their life, except 68 which was alleged to have collided with a low bridge not long after it arrived in Burton, and this may explain why it acquired a more modern looking front upper deck section compared to earlier. Nearly all the ex-LT buses lasted longer than the original Burton utility Arab IIs and were withdrawn 1964 to 1967. Finally as far as HGC130 or Burton 70 as I knew it, I travelled on it many times in service, and probably thought nothing much of it at the time, it was just another old bus, but would never have imagined that over 50 years on it would be preserved, and certainly in better condition than when I used it.

Old Burtonian

Premier Travel – Guy Arab II – CDR 750 – 110

Premier Travel (Cambridge)
1944
Guy Arab II 5LW
Roe L27/28R

By 1957, Premier Travel of Cambridge was looking to replace the remainder of its rather tired ex LPTB STLs and the second hand utility CWA6s from Huddersfield, Glasgow and Mansfield. It turned to the rugged Gardner 5LW powered Guy Arab II, choosing seven ex Southdown highbridge examples with the well constructed Northern Counties UH30/26R bodywork, and these were supplemented by three lowbridge machines from Plymouth Corporation with rebuilt Roe UL27/28R bodies. Allocated the fleet numbers from 102 to 111 inclusive, these became the only Guy buses ever to enter the Premier fleet. The Guys proved to be very economical and reliable, but the Plymouth examples had severely governed engines that limited road performance, even in the relatively flat lands of their operating territory. Given its sparsely populated rural network, Premier ran very close to the breadline. Nonetheless, one wonders why the company did not simply get the fuel pumps recalibrated to the manufacturer’s standard setting, but this apparently never happened. The Guys lasted with Premier for some four to five years before being replaced by “White Lady” Leyland PD2s from Ribble. The picture shows the crew of No. 110, ex Plymouth Arab II CDR 750, taking a layover break in Cambridge Drummer Street Bus Station on 26 August 1959.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

31/05/16 – 09:35

The conductress appears to be taking the term “layover just a bit too literally!!

Chris Youhill

01/06/16 – 06:54

The Premier Travel company has a curious link with the present day state of the bus industry. In 1950, a certain John Alfred Blythe Hibbs, after working for the company in his second year as part of his degree studies at Birmingham (Woodbrooke) University, was appointed in 1950 as Personal Assistant to Arthur Lainson, the boss of Premier Travel. The precarious financial state of the company saw the departure of Hibbs in 1952, whereupon he became a ‘transport consultant’. In 1954 he completed a Masters degree thesis on the shortcomings (as he saw them) of the Road Service Licensing system. Then, in 1956, he and a partner bought Corona Coaches of Acton, near Sudbury, Suffolk, and then purchased the nearby business of A. J. Long of Glemsford in 1958. Almost exactly one year later, in August 1959, the entire business failed, and Hibbs once again became a consultant cum journalist until he found a job with British Railways in 1961 as Traffic Survey Officer, Eastern Region, at Liverpool Street. After several job reclassifications, he left BR in 1967 for the academic world where he thereafter remained, loudly proclaiming his views, until retirement. Thus, his entire practical knowledge of bus operation was gained with Premier Travel for two to three years, and then for a further three years with his disastrous Corona venture. This, then, was the “expert” whose “experience” saw him recruited by Ridley to give a cover of academic justification to the industry death knell called deregulation. You couldn’t make it up. Then, with the ‘success’ of deregulation behind him, Hibbs was then involved in the equally catastrophic privatisation of the railway system, yet another industry in which his experience was minimal. As George Bernard Shaw said, “Those who can, do; those who can’t, teach”.

Roger Cox

01/06/16 – 09:13

Wonderful comments there Roger, and I fear that virtually everyone has now forgotten the scandalous Hereford and Worcester trial of 1985 – a handful of rural bus routes were allowed to be operated by “competent” small coach companies in order to prove that de-regulation would be in the interests of healthy competition and passenger benefit. Breaches of the embryo stern measures proposed were rife, but still the move went through and that’s where we are today !! A classic lesson in the need to stamp out a fresh virus before it it becomes a Nationwide uncontrollable epidemic.

Chris Youhill

01/06/16 – 17:24

My views on Ridiculous Nicolas have been aired here and elsewhere before. The man had one of the brownest noses of any of Thatcher’s sycophants and Roger’s comments come as no surprise. Having spent many years organising and operating conferences around the world for many disciplines in both academia and industry and having seen how the two interface, whenever an academic “expert” is asked to spout on television or in the press on how industry or the economy should deal with a problem, or should be run, unless I know they have years of practical experience alongside, or before, their being closeted in some think tank or hall of academe, I mentally switch off. Time after time these experts have been relied on to give their dubious weight to politicians’ hairbrained schemes, not just in the UK. The “reasoning” seems to be that the brightest brains are academics. That’s as maybe but translating theories into practice in established and sometimes in need of help industries needs real time, hands on, knowledge as well as hours sitting thinking and theorising.

Phil Blinkhorn

01/06/16 – 17:26

And back to the bus CDR 750 ended up next on a farm in Essex as a lorry and there was a article in a old Buses Annual and is now rebuilt back to a utility bus at the Scottish Vintage Bus Museum.

Ken Wragg

12/06/16 – 06:48

Something has been sticking in my mind…the company replaced its “preowned” utility Daimlers with some dependable and snouty Guys: and what did we get? proudly named “Premier”, a presumably solvent and possibly affordable local bus service on a shoestring, as were a number of municipalities: no leased leviathans then with their dodgem transmissions and (often) miserable drivers… right, back to reality….

Joe

12/06/16 – 09:11

Blame ‘Economics’, Joe, manifest in the form of One Person Operation. Back then, a driver was just that, able to concentrate on the job, and a conductor spent the whole time with passengers. Realistically, in modern road conditions, something like the sedate 5LW Arab would struggle to keep time, though some of the present day bus timings are absurdly fast. Even so, the operating costs of modern buses are much higher than those of the Arabs, PD2s et al of the past, yet the reliability is far lower. Years ago, a bus ride was a pleasant experience. I don’t find that to be true today.

Roger Cox

Southampton Corporation1954Guy Arab III 6LWPark Royal H30/26R

Bournemouth Corporation1943Guy Arab II 5LWWeymann OB35F

Yorkshire Woollen District Transport1943Guy Arab II 6LWRoe H56R

County Motors1945Guy Arab IIRoe L27/26R

Yorkshire Woollen District1943Guy Arab II 6LWRoe H56R

Blue Line (Samuel Morgan) Ltd.1943Guy Arab IIRoe H31/25R

Llandudno and Colwyn Bay Electric Railway Co1945Guy Arab II Northern Counties UH30/26R

Edinburgh Corporation1943Guy Arab IIDuple/Nudd H31/24R

London Transport1946Guy Arab II 5LWPark Royal H30/26R

Premier Travel (Cambridge)1944Guy Arab II 5LWRoe L27/28R

Southampton Corporation
1954
Guy Arab III 6LW
Park Royal H30/26R

Bournemouth Corporation
1943
Guy Arab II 5LW
Weymann OB35F

Yorkshire Woollen District Transport
1943
Guy Arab II 6LW
Roe H56R

County Motors
1945
Guy Arab II
Roe L27/26R

Yorkshire Woollen District
1943
Guy Arab II 6LW
Roe H56R

Blue Line (Samuel Morgan) Ltd.
1943
Guy Arab II
Roe H31/25R

Llandudno and Colwyn Bay Electric Railway Co
1945
Guy Arab II
Northern Counties UH30/26R

Edinburgh Corporation
1943
Guy Arab II
Duple/Nudd H31/24R

London Transport
1946
Guy Arab II 5LW
Park Royal H30/26R

Premier Travel (Cambridge)
1944
Guy Arab II 5LW
Roe L27/28R