Blackburn Corporation – Blackburn Borough Transport 1962 Leyland Titan PD2A/24 East Lancs H35/28R
The local government reorganisation of 1974 resulted in the merger of the municipal fleets of Blackburn and Darwen. The initial livery was a compromise, using Darwen’s red and Blackburn’s green, although the shades of these colours were rather brighter than those previously used. The combined undertaking was titled “Blackburn Borough Transport”, the word “Corporation” ceased to be used at this time (at least for bus fleets) except in Douglas The main subject of this picture is 25 (PCB 25) a Leyland Titan PD2A/24 with East Lancs H35/28R bodywork, one of twelve delivered to Blackburn Corporation in 1962; a further twelve identical vehicles followed in 1964. These followed batches of Guy Arab IV’s, and I’m sure the drivers will have appreciated the semi-automatic gearboxes on these Titans. Other vehicles of both Blackburn and Ribble can be seen, including the rear of an Atlantean in the previous Blackburn livery. After a few years a version of the latter livery was applied to the whole fleet.
The photograph was taken at The Boulevard bus terminus, which was right outside Blackburn Railway Station. This terminus served the town well until recently, but at the time of writing this area is a building site, with temporary traffic lights causing delays to buses entering or leaving the town from the south. A new bus station is under construction near to the market hall, and a temporary bus station has been built nearby. Nowadays the former municipal services are operated by Transdev Lancashire United, which revives a once proud name, although not in it’s original operating area.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Don McKeown
11/09/14 – 077:00
Don, there was another exception – Barrow-in-Furness Corporation Transport. Buses proudly carried the fleet name ‘Barrow Corporation’ well into the 1980s. They retained their smart cream and dark blue livery and a coat of arms too. Nice picture with plenty of background interest which captures the era well.
Mike Morton
13/09/14 – 06:35
The semi-automatic PD2 (as opposed to PD3) was a pretty rare vehicle really. And I don’t recall the centrifugal clutches rattling on these PD2s the way they did on Ribble, Wigan, Preston etc PD3s when idling.
Michael Keeley
14/09/14 – 07:26
There were indeed more semi-automatic PD3s built for UK operators than semi-automatic PD2s, but not all that many more. I can think of 391 PD2s, whereas the total for PD3s was, I think, about 580. The main customer for two-pedal PD2s was Glasgow Corporation Transport, which took 325. Others operators which spring to mind are Blackburn (24), Leeds (20), Huddersfield (6), Manchester (6), Swindon (5), King Alfred (2), Ramsbottom (1), Walsall (1), Demonstrator (1). Taking Glasgow out of the equation gives 66 PD2s and about 440 PD3s, so, outside Glasgow, two-pedal PD2s were indeed relatively rare. There’s no way a centrifugal clutch couldn’t rattle, so if the Blackburn PD2A/24s didn’t rattle then there’s no way they could have been centrifugal clutch, they must have been fluid flywheel, which is what I would have said they were anyway. Of the Ribble two-pedal PD3s, only 1706-1800 were centrifugal clutch, the final batch (1815-50) being fluid flywheel. All two-pedal Preston PD3s were centrifugal clutch, but they only took the one batch (of seven), choosing manual transmissions for all subsequent PD3s. I never seriously encountered the Wigan PD3s, sorry.
David Call
16/09/14 – 07:52
Never realised Glasgow had so many, their half-cabs were long gone by the first time I visited that city. Come to think of it, it was only the Ribble 1700s that rattled. The Wigans rattled with a vengeance as evidenced by the video of HEK 705 on Youtube. Some early Atlanteans had centrifugal clutches I believe, but had them quickly replaced by fluid flywheels, what did they sound like I wonder.
Michael Keeley
13/08/20 – 10:26
Brighton buses also proclaimed “Brighton Corporation” well into the eighties.
Newport Corporation 1958 Leyland Titan PD2/40 Longwell Green H30/28R
I don’t recall seeing any example of Longwell Green bodywork on here, so here it is. This Leyland Titan PD2/40 was new to Newport as their number 178 in 1958. Seating arrangement is H30/28R. An unusual feature is the upward bow of the canopy line. This picture was taken at Bus & Coach Wales, in Merthyr Tydfil, 14/09/2014, She looks good for 56 years old!
Photograph and Copy contributed by Les Dickinson
22/09/14 – 07:15
The upward bow to the canopy gave a rather old fashioned look to a late 1950’s bus. Otherwise this design seems to have similarities to Burlingham bodies of the same era. The fairly heavily radiused windows being the major similarity. This is a totally different design to the Stockport PD2’s which were the only Longwell Green bodies I was familiar with. The Stockport bodies were more akin to a Park Royal style.
Philip Halstead
22/09/14 – 15:01
You notice one thing & others follow…Whence came those funny bobble indicator lights? You can’t see them when alongside. A lot of “standard” sets (behind cab & rear) were retrofitted, I know, and there was a brief time of jumbo-trafficators but were they compulsory & in orange by this date? Deep top panel of windscreen- when did these become generally one-piece and why two piece for so long? Small front saloon window- heater? Windows seem proud……. Lovely looking restoration.
Joe
22/09/14 – 15:02
Philip, I beg to differ. The Stockport vehicles were very much based on the Burlingham design. See my article “Stockport Corporation Transport 1958-1969. The Stockport bodies had no relationship to the Park Royal design. You are thinking of the previous batch of PD2s which were Crossley bodies built to Park Royal drawings as Crossley were under the same ownership as Park Royal.
Phil Blinkhorn
22/09/14 – 15:02
Copyright tarboat – Flickr
Stockport’s Longwell Green bodies are thought to have been built using Burlingham frames and from the rear look very similar to the two batches of Burlingham bodies supplied to Manchester (TNA 471-579). There are other similarities too in the radii used on the number blinds etc. The windows look different partly because of Stockport’s preference for wind down windows and the associated drip rails. However the Stockport buses that look really akin to the Park Royal style are the Crossley bodied PD2s delivered in 1958 which were built on Park Royal 4 bay frames.
Orla Nutting
23/02/15 – 07:25
I remember these buses being newly delivered. One bus, the first, ODW 298 had a straight front. The flashing indicators were fitted from new if memory serves me well. This vehicle passed to a local scout group and was repurchased by N.C.T.
Brian
04/02/22 – 05:47
Opening windscreens on PSVs was mandatory until around 1957/8 in theory so the driver could open the windscreen for better vision in fog. Whilst coaches adopted large curve fixed windscreens almost immediately service buses continued with tradition until the early 60s (Routemasters until end of production except for the NGT & BEA ones).
Liverpool City Transport 1956 Leyland Titan PD2/20 Crossley H33/29R
New in November 1956, L255 was one of a batch of 65 Leyland Titan PD2/20 chassis that had been ordered back in 1955, partly to enable the 19 & 44 tram routes to be converted to bus operation. It was originally painted in the Dark green livery with two cream bands. When new L255 was allocated to Carnegie Road garage, but its stay there was only short lived as it was transferred to Walton in March 1957. There it was used on routes such as 19/44/92/93 serving the new expanding housing estates of Kirkby, Southdene and Tower Hill as well as the Corporations own Kirkby Industrial Estate. where it lives today! When Walton closed for rebuilding in October 1962, L255, along with the majority of Waltons allocation moved to the new Gillmoss garage . Following overhauls in 1966 and 1971 it returned to Gillmoss. It then moved to Litherland garage in August 1973 and saw use on services 28,51,52,53,55,55A,56,57,57A,58,59 to Ford, Netherton and Sefton. L255’s stay at Litherland was a short one as it was transferred for the last time in April 1975 to Green Lane. There it was used mainly on peak hour extras and industrial workings until it was finally withdrawn from service in March 1976. Purchased for preservation in May 1976 and joined the other vehicles in the growing Mersey and Calder Preservation group in 1977. As L255 was in basically good condition it was soon rubbed down and painted back into the early 1960’s livery of green with cream staircase panel and window surrounds. In 1996 after more than 20 years in active preservation and with more than 25 years since a major overhaul, it was time for some major body restoration. After stripping every external panel off the bus, it was soon found that there was a fair amount of work involved. Following a flurry of activity in early 2007, L255 was eventually completed finally passing the MOT 2 days before the Mersey Transport Trust’s annual running day in September 2007, proving a popular attraction during the day. During 2009 a rechromed drivers window surround was fitted and in 2010 side adverts were added much improving its appearance. It is seen at the 2014 Kirkby running day.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ken Jones
28/10/14 – 07:03
I always thought that the Liverpool bonnet assembly detracted from the overall look of these buses. The flush windscreen and unusual livery application didn’t really help either
Chris Hough
29/10/14 – 07:12
Totally agree Chris. Much better looking examples of what was a PRV design were operated in the North West by Oldham and Stockport.
Phil Blinkhorn
29/10/14 – 15:59
When compared to other tin fronts of the period, the front panel and the area around the windscreen, give it a sort of DIY in-house accident repair appearance, rather than one that was built that way in the first place.
Ronnie Hoye
30/10/14 – 07:16
There is a lot of confusion about Crossley bodies of this period. Despite employing the PRV rear emergency window, I don’t believe this was the PRV design (as supplied later to Stockport and Oldham), and neither does the Crossley book (Eyre Heaps & Townsin). Mind you, that book isn’t foolproof; identical bodies supplied to Darwen are coded as the PRV design, while those supplied to Sunderland are coded as a Liverpool design. The flat front to the upper deck is something specifically requested by Liverpool and used on Crossley bodies elsewhere. The standard Midland Red assembly would not have allowed this, and in fact later Liverpool bodies with the Midland Red assembly had bow-fronted bodies by Duple and Alexander.
Peter Williamson
31/10/14 – 06:27
As the owner of the bus, I can confirm that the Crossley body is of Park Royal design, I have restored both L255 & Park Royal bodied Barrow 170 CEO 957, the only difference being the window frames. Liverpool using glass mounted from the inside with a window ledge inside as against the Standard Park Royal body on 170 with windows mounted from the outside with a ledge outside. The last true Crossley designed body supplied to Liverpool was L224, L225 to L244 also carried Crossley framework but the coachwork was completed by LCPT at Edge lane works. I hope this clarifies it more.
Rob Wilson
03/11/14 – 06:34
Thanks for your clarification, Rob. It probably means I’ve been spouting rubbish on various forums for some time, thanks to believing what experts write in books. One thing that fooled me (not clear in this view but there are plenty of other photos around) was the small rectangular windows in the front bulkhead, which Crossley had used on their own-framed bodies. On other Park Royal-framed Crossley bodies the bulkhead is the standard Park Royal type with a deeply arched lower rail to the windows. Perhaps this is again due to the different glazing system used for Liverpool (and Darwen, Sunderland and Aberdeen).
Peter Williamson
03/11/14 – 10:19
A quick scan on SCT61 pages suggests that Liverpool specified that size of front bulkhead window on all their contemporary Leyland deckers be they Saunders-Roe, Duple, Alexander or Crossley bodied. On Stockport’s Crossley bodied Leyland deckers with PRV frames the bulkhead window bottom rail does follow the line of the engine cover but it, and those on the next batch of Longwell Green bodies, is still a very narrow window (made to look even more so by the top opening vent) compared with that fitted to their later East Lancs bodied St Helens front PD2s.
Orla Nutting
03/11/14 – 16:28
Liverpool made a habit of taking framed chassis from the likes of Weymann and Crossley but then changing the profiles. There were some very odd Weymann/Liverpool bodies on Regent IIs with an upright profile which ruined the general style of the Weymann original – and I believe they also had non-Weymann upper deck tear emergency exits. Even the Met-Camm Orion Regent Vs were not standard Met-Camm. That accolade went to the the famous Nottingham PD2s famous because they were the first Nottingham PD2s.
David Oldfield
04/11/14 – 06:45
…..and of course there were the 1949 all Crossley DD42s that Sheffield acquired new as a cancelled Liverpool order. These were neither the popularly remembered Crossley outline, nor did they have the PRV framed body. These were identical to the Regent IIIs and the first Regent Vs which Liverpool took delivery of and kept hold of. Although L255 is obviously based on the PRV design, there are also elements of the earlier design around the front (especially upper deck).
David Oldfield
05/11/14 – 06:40
Hopefully a rather extensive restoration of Barrow 170 will be completed soon by the Barrow Transport group. So I hope that when it ventures to our NWVRT Open day at Kirkby (plug 31/5/2015)we can get them parked together to record similarities. Another Park Royal trait that L255 carries internally is the pressed out lighting mounts along the cove panels in the upper saloon ,just like the ones on 170 & Park Royal bodied Liverpool E1. The Crossley Bodies AEC’s and the Liverpool PD2’s up to L224 had their lights at the edge of the ceiling . Was this a standard Crossley practice ?
Rob Wilson
11/11/14 – 18:20
I now have to eat some more of my words. Earlier I said that use of the standard Leyland (originally Midland Red) bonnet assembly would not have allowed Liverpool to have their much-loved flat-fronted upper deck. I got this idea from Alan Townsin’s Duple book, which says that the uncharacteristic bow fronts of the Duple bodies on L91-140 were dictated by the design of the Leyland tin-front. However, I now find that Darwen’s pair of Crossley-bodied PD2/20s managed to incorporate both the Leyland tin front and the Liverpool-style flat-fronted upper deck perfectly well – see www.sct61.org.uk/dw15 I also think I have solved the conundrum of the bulkhead window. Other photos of L255 show it to have a much wider bulkhead window than the Crossley-framed bodies, and the reason for departing from the standard PRV window was almost certainly the rearward-facing seat behind the bulkhead, which I had forgotten about. I have reverted to my earlier belief that other Crossley bodies with the narrow window (Darwen, Sunderland, Aberdeen) were Crossley-framed.
Peter Williamson
04/06/16 – 07:07
I thought I had a photo of a Liverpool Crossley DD42 and have now found it. C642 taken at Pier Head on July 5, 1962, still in cream bands livery and by this time only appearing on school, university and short workings.
Geoff Pullin
08/01/21 – 07:33
I loved the batch of Leylands that replaced the trams. When I became a bus spotter circa 1962, the fleet still had remnants of pre war buses when it was difficult to buy one. When Leyland Atlanteans were used on my school route 61 to Aigburth, occasionally in the peak hours you would get a 1947/8 Leyland Titan PD2/1 (L425-428) with Leyland coachwork with moquette seats, very harsh with short kegs (trousers). They were almost posh for their time and its such a shame that none of them were saved. I believe L316-318 were not painted as A40. Shame they were not saved as well. I used to go to the Edge Lane depot and walk around the withdrawals, Daimlers, early AEC Regent IIIs (grim). Those lovely enamelled AEC badges on the radiators and bell pushes…… I was only 11.
North Western Road Car Co 1956 Leyland Titan PD2/21 Weymann L30/28RD
Until the arrival of ten of these in the North Western fleet in 1956, previous examples of the Leyland PD2 had featured traditional exposed radiators and bodywork by either Leyland themselves, or by Weymann, who had supplied six lightweight but otherwise classically styled bodies in 1953. This last batch featured the PD2/21 chassis with the concealed front – originally designed for Midland Red’s LD8 class, then adopted as standard by Leyland, even leaving the oddly shaped blank space above the grille slots intended for the BMMO badge. The PD2/21 was the less common air-braked variant of the more common vacuum-braked PD2/20. The bodywork was the lowbridge manifestation of the MCW organisation’s lightweight Orion, regarded by many as being particularly slab-sided and ugly, though personally I always felt that the equal depth windows (compared with the unequal ones of the highbridge version) at least improved the overall proportions. It seems that they were generally unpopular with crews and most local enthusiasts, being accused of being very hard riding. They were quite a familiar site to me – particularly on Summer Saturdays when the usual ‘blacktop’ Tiger Cubs or Reliances were needed for greater things – as they would often pass through my home town of Halifax working on the X12 between Manchester and Bradford. Although this service passed our house, the limited stop conditions on that section left it out of bounds to us locals, so I never got to ride on one. Although the other nine were scrapped, Neville Mercer has said that 666 was exported to Canada, so there is a remote chance that it could still exist. Similar looking examples were also bought by East Midland, and the Corporations of Luton and Southend. Here 666 is seen on the parking ground off Wood Street in Stockport, alongside 258, a Leopard PSU4/4R with Duple Commander III C41F body of 1968.
Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer
29/10/14 – 17:07
When I worked at Sharston (near Northenden) 666 from Manchester depot, took me on the first leg of my journey home to Royton. It was on the 64 service to Piccadilly (from Ringway) almost every day. I hated it. The suspension was indeed very hard. I usually sat on the front nearside seat in the lower deck, which was not too bumpy. The North Western drivers always gave me a fast run into town – they made good time by ignoring one or two intending passengers. As for sound effects, the journey was accompanied by sneezing noises from the air brakes! At summer weekends it sometimes appeared on X12, Manchester – Halifax – Bradford. I had the misfortune to ride on it one Saturday from Bradford to Oldham. The West Riding road surfaces made for a miserable journey! Wouldn’t mind a ride on it now though!!
Peter G
29/10/14 – 17:08
John mentions that these lowbridge PD2’s were familiar to him as they regularly passed through Halifax on the X12. This one actually passed through Halifax, Nova Scotia in 1972, on its way west, it certainly took me by surprise when I caught a glimpse of it. I’m not sure if it still exists or not, or just where it might be.
Dave Careless
30/10/14 – 07:18
The problem of harsh riding given by the lightweight Orion and its clones was shared by other makes of chassis, all of which were sprung to carry the typical weight of traditional, decent quality bodywork.
Roger Cox
30/10/14 – 07:19
Not only were they hard riding, they were finished to a cheap specification, rattled a lot and the crews hated the rear doors. All in all not the finest NWRCC vehicles.
Phil Blinkhorn
30/10/14 – 07:20
It’s lovely to see a photo of the registration number KDB 666 as nature intended, adorning a North Western Leyland Titan. In the late 1970’s the registration number could often be seen around Harrogate, attached to a very nice green Rover 3500. The bus connection was maintained however, as the Rover was used by one of NBC/West Yorkshire Road Car’s senior managers.
Brendan Smith
05/11/14 – 06:29
I have a note of seeing this bus in Frank Cowley’s yard in Fallowfield, re-registered KDB 499, in January 1972. I wonder what that mark was transferred from?
Michael Keeley
05/11/14 – 11:36
I’ve long wondered if “KDB 499” was a real registration mark. Given the fundamentalist tendencies of many North Americans I can understand why Cowley (given a Canadian buyer for the vehicle) might have decided to remove the original “Number of the Beast” plate, but would they really have gone to the trouble of officially re-registering it with a similar mark? My suspicion is that the plate was for purely cosmetic purposes. Back in the late 60s I saw a few withdrawn NWRCC vehicles being ferried to Cowley’s Salford and Fallowfield premises using the dealer’s “BA” trade plates, and once the PD2/21 had gotten there its next trip was on a boat. I’d also be interested to find out when the WYRCC staff-car received the registration. Was there a noticeable gap? The PSV Circle’s NWRCC fleet history asserts that KDB 499 was a genuine registration, but as aficionados of these histories will be aware the level of accuracy in this is not up to their usual standard. Does anybody have a record of Stockport registrations?
Neville Mercer
06/11/14 – 06:08
KDB 499 may well have been a real registration mark but not to NWRCC for a PSV. They had KDB 631 to KDB 700, all but 661-670 being applied to Tiger Cub deliveries in 1956 and 1957.
Orla Nutting
06/11/14 – 11:42
Hi Orla, I think you’ve forgotten the batch of Weymann Fanfares that started at KDB 626, making a total of 75 vehicles in the block allocation. KDB 499 was presumably allocated to a private car, and I really can’t understand why NWRCC would go to the trouble of re-registering the vehicle before selling it to Cowley. Back in those days this would have involved buying the previous vehicle to wear the marks – a rather expensive manoeuvre merely to get rid of one old bus. There’s obviously another story going on here – the allocation of 666’s old registration number to the WYRCC staff car. I appreciate that “KDB” looks vaguely like a WYRCC fleet number, but a staff car would look nothing like a Keighley based Bristol double-decker! Why would anybody (especially a no-nonsense THC subsidiary) pay good money to do this? Do we have any ex-WYRCC readers who can throw further light on this?
Neville Mercer
06/11/14 – 14:15
Ah, yes. The AEC Reliances. I had forgotten them.
Orla Nutting
07/11/14 – 13:17
Neville, the senior member of staff arrived in Harrogate from elsewhere in the National Bus Company empire, and the Rover came with him, already bearing its KDB 666 registration. Maybe he had a soft spot for this particular bus (666) or perhaps there was something of significance in the registration. Alas we’ll probably never know.
Brendan Smith
11/11/14 – 18:18
I’ve done some digging in my records and find that KDB 666 was on a Rover 3500 that came under West Yorkshire admin on 16/1/75. However, it runs in my mind that the NBC ‘senior member’ was Robert Brook, and that he didn’t come to Yorkshire to join West Yorkshire, but to live. Certainly, it’s shown as being the ‘Chief Executive’s’ car. At about this time, if you remember, NBC was also running an area office in Darlington, to which Bill Stephen had been ‘shunted’ when he was removed as WY Chief Engineer, but whether that was where Mr Brook also worked I can’t now remember. I suspect he probably spent a lot of time commuting to London!
Trevor Leach
12/11/14 – 05:36
Presumably the Robert Brook who was General Manager of North Western at the time it was broken up? I seem to recall that there was another Robert Brook, although I might just have been confused by rapid ‘career moves’!
Nigel Frampton
09/04/15 – 07:05
I remember seeing a beige Rover in Cheadle in the late sixties or early seventies with the reg KDB 666. I loved occasionally having a lowbridge Titan on my journey to school. The routes 29, 30, 52 and 52A were predominantly Daimler Fleetlines, Dennis Lolines 2 and 3 and AEC Renowns (my favourite bus ever was AJA 121B one of the second batch with moquette upholstery on the upper deck) so a lowbridge Titan was quite a novelty.
Graham Bloxsome
23/05/15 – 07:05
There’s no mystery. Robert Brook was the last GM of North Western and he took the registration with him for his car when he left at the end of 1972. He also left with a photo I prepared for him of 666 as delivered in the old cream roof black wings livery. He and I left the Manchester area at the same time and he kindly let me speak to him in his office knowing my interest in North Western and as owner of CDB 206.
Bob Bracegirdle
01/09/17 – 15:14
I’ve just read through this thread and can definitely clarify, if there’s still any uncertainty, that Robert Brook was overall Chairman of NBC in 1978-80 at a time when Linda Chalker was Minister for Transport. My GM at the time would say ‘Oh dear, we’ve got another Dear Robert, love Linda.’ i.e. another memo from the Minister to our lord and master that had to be dealt with. Presumably Bob B’s ‘left’ didn’t mean retirement, or could have referred to another RB?
W. Alexander & Sons Ltd. 1953 Leyland Titan PD2/12 Alexander L27/26R
W. Alexander & Sons Ltd Leyland Titan PD2/12 with Alexander lowbridge bodywork RB161 DWG 917, ‘Bus Lists on the Web’ have it listed as new to Alexander in 1952, ‘British Bus Fleets have RB160 DWG 916 listed at 1953, though not all of the batch are listed. But other sources on the web have it dated at 1954, clarification on this matter may prove interesting.
As can be seen below the RB161 fleet number plate is a small plate with the letters ‘BN’ which stood for the ‘Bannockburn’ depot. It is seen at A-Bus in October 2014 on a trip in connection with the Bristol Vintage Bus Group running day.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ken Jones
06/11/14 – 08:23
This bus is not in Alexander (Midland) livery, but in the W. Alexander livery that existed until 1961 when the fleet was split into three – Midland, Fife and Northern. The fleet numbers were then prefixed with M, F or N respectively. This bus latterly ran in the attractive yellow and cream colour scheme of Alexander (Northern) and is seen in the attached photo along with sister NRB163 at Elgin depot on 6th September 1970, complete with E’ depot plate.
David Beilby
06/11/14 – 08:25
I have changed the header and copy to remove the (Midland) part.
Peter
06/11/14 – 09:06
W.Alexander & Sons Leyland Titan, DWG 917 was first registered on 4th June 1953. As part of the new vehicle licencing system the DVLA has a public website which shows if your vehicle is currently road taxed, it also shows when a vehicle was first registered, just google “vehicle enquiry service.gov.uk”, enter your registration and chassis type to check if your vehicle is covered.
A 1950 H30/26R all Leyland Titan of Newcastle Corporation. One of 52 of the type delivered between 1948 and 1950. PD2/1 1948 registrations LVK 115/136 fleet numbers 115/136 1950 registrations NBB 281 – 300 fleet numbers 281/300 PD2/3 1950 registrations NVK 301/310 fleet numbers 301/310 In addition, there were six L27/26R PD2/1 low bridge versions 1949 registrations LVK 6/11 fleet numbers 6/11 The all Leyland Titan was well built and reliable, and as good a looking vehicle as anything else that was around at the time, but sometimes its what’s in the background that makes a photo interesting rather than the subject matter itself. NBB 286 is heading south towards Newcastle City Centre and is about enter Barras Bridge. The large building is the Hancock Museum, which is at the junction of Claremont Road, what looks like a Duple butterfly ‘chassis unknown’ heading north on the Great North Road, which at that time was still the A1. A 1949/50 MCCW bodied BUT 9641T trolleybus is coming out of Jesmond Road, so the year is pre 1966. Behind it is a Percy Main vehicle which will be on the service 3 – 5 or 11, it could be either an Atlantean or a Weymann bodied Daimler Fleetline. One Titan from the Newcastle fleet has survived LVK 123 and is in its original 1948 blue livery, but bearing in mind the number that were produced, it seems that not that many are still around.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye
02/12/14 – 05:29
Ronnie, I think that this photograph was taken before May 1965 when the trolleybus services along Jesmond Road were converted to motorbus operation. I always thought that there was something magical and special about the cypher A1 and name ‘Great North Road’. Over the years the A1 has had quite a few different routes through Tyneside and the numbers now allocated to former sections of the route give few clues to their former glory.
Another from Newcastle City Libraries archives. From the caption at the bottom, the location is West Clayton Street Newcastle, which is literally just round the corner from the Central Station. The date is 1952; the buses are lined up ready to depart for Gosforth Park Racecourse, about three miles north of the City. I suspect it would be on the day of the Northumberland Plate, know as the Pitman’s Derby, this race meeting always attracts huge crowds, and is run on the last Saturday in June. An interesting line up, headed by an all Leyland Titan PD2/3 from 1950, NVK 304; then two MCCW bodied Daimlers, the one in front is one of the 1947/8 KVK registered CV6G series, the second could be from the same batch, or it could be a 1938 FVK registered CW5G. Next in line, looks like a 1947/8 Roe bodied Daimler CV6G, they were also KVK registrations. Looking at the outward swoop of the lower body panels, my guess would be that number five is a 1946 Weymann bodied AEC Regent II. I can’t make out enough detail to have a stab at the rest.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye
23/12/14 – 17:12
A very appetising line-up! Never realised until recently that Newcastle had had any Birmingham-style MCCW-bodied Daimlers. How did that come about? One of my very favourite bus designs, by the way.
Ian T
06/01/15 – 16:24
I believe Newcastle Transport was desperate for new stock, and Daimler and Metro-Cammell could offer quick delivery. The bodies were to Birmingham spec, including the single aperture front destination blind, though livery and upholstery were to Newcastle standard. They were delivered in the blue and cream livery. There’s a photo of one in the later yellow and cream livery but with its Birmingham style indicators in Alan Townsin’s Best Best of British Buses volume 11, post war Daimlers. The destination blinds must have been changed to the standard Newcastle pattern quite quickly. I’ve seen a photo of one on Facebook dated 1950 so,fitted.
Richard S
06/01/15 – 16:26
There is a follow-up to this post with pictures at this link.
Southdown Motor Services Ltd 1950 Leyland PD2/12 Northern Counties FCH28/16RD
In the post about Southdown’s Leyland Titan PD2 756 (MUF 456), Diesel Dave made mention of Southdown’s one-off 700 and Michael Hampton said he saw it in Bognor Depot’s Yard. KUF 700 was Southdown’s 700, a 1950 Leyland Titan PD2/12 with Northern Counties FCH28/16RD bodywork and was intended to be the first of a fleet of such vehicles for use on express services from the South Coast to London. It began work on the Eastbourne to London service, but proved totally unsuitable, suffering excessive body-roll and under-performance, being overweight and therefore under-powered. By 1952, it was relegated to private hire and bus work. This photo was taken at Bognor Depot in 1959, with the bus still looking remarkably chipper and still possessing its coach seats, although with its roof lights painted over. In this limbo situation, it somehow survived in service until 1966, when it was taken into Portslade works for conversion to a breakdown tender, but the work remained unfinished and the vehicle languished there for some six years, eventually being scrapped there in 1973. Sixteen years active life for a bus, which was somewhat of an embarrassment, could be considered quite an achievement, as it happens. The lower front bears a definite resemblance to Southdown’s later Queen Mary’s and the body, as a whole, still has the overall look of NCME’s pre-war models, notably the Leicester AEC Renowns of 1939, a design not destined to last much longer.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Chris Hebbron
15/01/15 – 06:10
It is wonderful to see Chris’s colour photo of Southdown 700 as I only have a B/W photo which I bought in 1958 from the late Eric Surfleet of Lancing. This shows 700 on an excursion still in it’s original livery which had green window surrounds and the usual dark green lining on the horizontal beading also the corner bumpers on the front and rear,the bumpers are still on the front at least even after it’s repaint. The top deck coving panels were I believe always translucent and not clear glass. Sad to say despite living in the area at the time, and attending school in Hailsham which was on it’s route, I don’t recall seeing this fine vehicle.
Diesel Dave
15/01/15 – 09:31
Thanks to Chris for the great colour shot of 700, and Diesel Dave for it in it’s earlier more public life. As I said in the earlier posting, my usual sightings of it were c. 1960-62, and it was always in the Bognor yard. But it was always in a different position, so clearly saw some use. It does seem strange that East Yorkshire and Ribble operated a small fleet of such vehicles with (presumably) some success, while Southdown, usually effective in their plans, found they could not make 700 work on the coach work originally envisaged. A fleet of such vehicles on the 31 had to wait until the Queen Mary PD3s arrived, and they didn’t have coach seats!
Michael Hampton
15/01/15 – 10:32
What a wonderful photo – thanks Chris for posting it. As many readers will know, this vehicle has generated interested on the SCT61 website and it is good to see these two further views of this magnificent coach. When it was downgraded to bus duties, did it keep the luggage areas in the lower saloon? If so, a capacity of just 16 must have been a major factor in its demise. A similar fate befell the East Yorkshire and Ribble d/d coaches but at least they managed to get 20 and 22 seats respectively in their lower saloons.
Paul Haywood
15/01/15 – 11:21
Following Michael H’s comments, here’s a photo of a Leyland PD2 49-seat Ribble White Lady. There were 50 of them, in two batches, with bodies (5-bay) by Burlingham and 4-bay East Lancs ones. There seems an irony to put a lowbridge body on a so-called coach, but it did not seem to affect custom!. Ribble – //tinyurl.com/os4f47k And here’s a photo of East Yorkshire’s Leyland PD2 with Roe normal height body. East Yorkshire – //www.sct61.org.uk/ey568 There was something very satisfying about double-deck coach design of this period, even conventional half-cab types. I recall the West Yorkshire version of a Bristol K6B Scarborough Express, way down the OBP page, the upper photo, not the lower abomination! SEE //tinyurl.com/ono24n2
Chris Hebbron
23/02/15 – 14:31
I remember 700 KUF 700 very well as a school boy in Bognor yard where I spent most of my after school time. Bob Mustchin the foreman in the garage took me under his wing and many a time I helped him shunt it around the yard when it been dumped from a private hire or bus relief working. This led to me buying one of the left luggage offices D689 HCD 449 which has been fantastically restored now by Bob Gray. The yard has a vivid memory for me with a flint stone boundary with access only through the bus station rear doors until the retail development created an entrance from Queeensway giving access directly into the yard and changing the in/out pattern for local services and coaches. I remember the transition from TD5’s TS7/8’s with PD2 1’s through to underfloor Leylands and the arrival of PD2/12’s to PD 3’s
Clifford Jones
13/03/15 – 07:12
I have posted my memories of this vehicle already however I would like to add that the B/W photo of it showing an excursion blind in taken in Bognor Regis High Street with 700 heading west as Lloyds bank is in the background. My family banked there with the International store visible to the right including trees in the foreground which were a feature in the High Street of that era. I have a photo of 700 solitarily languishing in the corner of Bognor yard against a corner of the flint wall overshadowing the Queensway development which would shortly see the demise of the wall. My memories of Southdown in Bognor my birth place are being prepared.
Clifford Jones
13/03/15 – 16:52
I, for one, will look forward to your jottings of Southdown in Bognor Regis, Clifford. I lived in Pompey for 20 years, the Western boundary of Southdown. I travelled on its two most Westerly routes (I think), from Portsmouth to Warsash and Portsmouth to the somewhat mundane place name, Meon Hut! Your mention of International Stores reminds me of all the other grocery stores of the time: Home & Colonial, Pearks, Maypole Dairies, David Greig and, of course, Sainsbury, before it became a supermarket. Other, later stores/supermarkets were MacFisheries (our first local supermarket), Victor Value (bought by Tesco), Bejam, Kwiksave and Somerfield. But I digress!
Chris Hebbron
14/03/15 – 12:50
Chris, you left out Lipton’s, another of the names from our nostalgic past before the present age of bland uniformity.
Roger Cox
14/03/15 – 16:14
Chris, the place you are thinking of west of Portsmouth on a Southdown route is the West Meon Hut. It’s a pub at the junction of the A32 and A272. The actual West Meon village is nearby. A friend of mine once owned an RM stored near here, and it could be a useful venue once we returned from a rally day when the RM had finished it’s day out. I don’t think the Southdown route terminated here, though short workings might have done. It was the 38, and in the 1950’s I remember Guy Arab utilities thundering up Southwick Hill Road out of Cosham heading for Southwick, Wickham and Droxford. At some point a railway closure entered the picture, and the route was extended to Alton. However, the usual buses then were saloons, such as the 1500 series Royal Tigers or 620 series Tiger Cubs. Strangely, I don’t recall these so well, but have seen photos in various Southdown books in my collection. I too will be interested to see Clifford’s Bognor Regis notes – I was always fascinated with the occasional visit to Chichester and Bognor with their own set of routes down to the Witterings, Sidlesham, etc.
Michael Hampton
16/03/15 – 06:43
Roger C – I should have remembered Liptons, but there wasn’t one around my area. Michael H – It was a 1500 series Royal Tiger around 1964, after they’d been converted to OMO operation. I went with GF and friend with his GF, too. We had lunch at the pub there. The bus performed well, but was a bit creaky, I recall. Nice-looking vehicles, though. You mention the austerity Guy Arabs thundering up the hill. Did they have 5 or 6LW engines, or a mixture of both, or did Southdown upgrade them at some time. I only travelled on them to and from the Hayling Ferry, when they were open-toppers and never noticed what they were on dead-flat Hayling Island!
Chris Hebbron
16/03/15 – 11:54
Chris, I don’t recall whether the Guys I remember had 5LW or 6LW engines. I don’t have access to my SEC books at the moment, but I think Southdown had a mixture as new in the war, and they did swap engines around afterwards, too. Will have to investigate later, unless others have more immediate knowledge.
Michael Hampton
17/03/15 – 06:16
Economic, Grandways, Gateway (didn’t they become Somerfield?), Hillards, and perhaps most recently Jacksons. I think Economic, Grandways, and Hillards were local to the Yorkshire area. I wonder if there is an “Old Grocery Photos” website where people are posting “not really to do with grocery shops but County Motors . . .”. Local ITV stations seem to have disappeared. One, very small, thing that seems to have bucked the trend is bus stop flags: the old Department for the Environment standard style of the early 1970s now seems to be in retreat in many places . . . such a shame about the buses stopping at them.
Philip Rushworth
17/03/15 – 16:49
They must be Yorkshire ones, Philip, I’ve only heard of Gateway/Somerfield, the latter of which has become the Co-op. I believe, which we’ve all heard of! The simple black on white bus stop flags are disappearing fast, in favour of ‘busy’ multi-coloured ones where the bus image is hardly discernable; at least that’s ‘the Stagecoach way’. I thought the original ones were an early attempt at helping those with impaired vision – they certainly don’t help now!
Chris Hebbron
18/03/15 – 06:58
This is only the beginning… Maypole, Meadow Dairy, Gallons, Thrift Stores, Melias, Home & Colonial… then there were the prominent grocers/bakers in every town – Arthur Davy in Sheffield, Hagenbachs, Hodgson & Hepworths in Doncaster, Vaux Bros in Ponty (Chris), Websters in Wakefield, Silvios in Bradford… how do I connect this to Old Bus Photos? Many Doncaster Corporation Buses had a big sunburst tween decks, advertising Dysons Flour, and these seemed always to be on derelict deckers in scrapyards or the “bus” ? canteen at Marshgate in Doncaster which peeped over the North Bridge Wall. How accurate is that bit of nostalgia therapy?
Joe
18/03/15 – 06:59
I’ve found some facts about the utility Guys and here are a few pertinent ones. Southdown received 100 examples: only the first two were Arab I’s. About 25% in total received 6LW engines, randomly supplied. Many 6LW-engined ones had engine swaps with 5LW engines before disposal. Not all open-topped conversions were fitted with 6LW engines, but those climbing to Beachy Head were. All the Arabs had gone by 1964. One survives into preservation.
Chris Hebbron
19/03/15 – 07:11
Thanks Chris H for the 5LW/6LW info – I’m away from my resources until the end of the month! The Portsmouth Arabs may have been 5LWs as delivered as Pompey is a flat area (Southwick Hill Road being a minor exception, although all cars bound for Waterlooville and northwards would have had the slog up the main London Road). However by the late 50’s those used on the 38 to Droxford etc may well have been upgraded. Just listening to some of the Guy Arabs in the sounds section of this site is an aural delight, too.
Michael Hampton
19/03/15 – 07:12
Bus stop signs: The bus logo on the stop plate was not for visibility. When introduced it formed part of the TRO (Traffic regulation order) that made parking restrictions enforceable – which is why it has the same outline as the bus on bus lane signs. Whether legislation has changed since I don’t know.
Alan Murray-Rust
12/04/15 – 07:10
Thank you for your comments while waiting for my observations. I was born in Bognor Regis in 1947 when my parents moved down from Croydon. My mother had a dress making shop with a flat above opposite the General Post Office which is how I became a bus enthusiast looking out of the window at the Southdown pre war buses stopping opposite and the occasional appearance of a Green Goddess fire engine when the siren went off. My memories are currently being compiled taking me from an enthusiast to a bus operator in Brighton. Look out for it on Classic Bus web site SCT’6.
Clifford Jones
09/01/16 – 17:46
Hi, just seen this article and comments. I remember this bus being in the Bognor area when I was young and for a while it ran on the 31 Portsmouth to Brighton service, and at the time was common knowledge that it had been exhibited at the Festival of Britain on the South Bank, showing the future of British Transport. Assuming this is correct then it is a pity it came to a disappointing end.
Brian Allsopp
10/01/16 – 05:57
Alan, with regard to your post of March 2015 [which I seem to have missed] in respect of the bus stop poles and signs, they are in the Department For Transport’s (or whatever that outfit is called this week!) Traffic Signs Manual, which prescribes the assorted outlines typefaces and dimensions. The picture of the bus was supposed to be the right sign before I retired, and it was black on a white background. Yes, I know, an increasing number of operators use their own, which makes me wonder if the rules have changed in the not too distant past! Equally, the post ‘shall’ – the manual used to say – be black or silver. So much for the operator’s livery colour!
Pete Davies
10/01/16 – 10:53
I always imagined that bold ‘black bus on white background’ consistency was introduced to help those with sight impairment, entirely logical, but perhaps misguided by the way it’s fast disappearing. Stagecoach are introducing such multi-coloured ones with fancy writing/numbers, that I, who suffer from colour-blindness, has difficulty making out the dedicated route numbers on the various signs. I must look out for the manual you mention, Pete. Maybe I can throw a spanner in the works!
Chris Hebbron
11/01/16 – 09:26
Paul H (15/01/15 – 10:32) implies that, like Southdown’s KUF 700, Ribble’s early post-war double-deck coaches were, in due course, downgraded to buses. In fact, that only happened in respect of the first 30 (2518-47: BRN 261-90 – later renumbered 1201-30), which were actually PD1/3, only the last 20 being PD2/3. From the mid-1950s they were demoted to bus work, with the luggage pens replaced by seats, presumably raising capacity to 53. They were also repainted in bus livery, but I understand that these things (demoting/increasing capacity/repainting) did not necessarily all occur at the same time. After becoming buses, they were particularly associated with Ribble’s Furness operating area. The later PD2/3s (1231-50: DCK 202-21) were never downgraded to buses, they remained on medium distance express services until replaced by Atlanteans 1266-85 (RRN 415-34) in 1962.
David Call
11/01/16 – 13:37
Brian A above says No 700 was at the Festival of Britain in 1951. I’m not sure about that, as I thought it was one of the standard Leyland-bodied PD2/12s on show at that event. In C. Carter’s book “The Heyday of the Bus, the Postwar Years”, there is a picture of No.701 (KUF 701) on a plinth there. This was the first of 24 such vehicles, followed by another 30 (Later ones had bodies by other makers). If 700 visited as well, was it just on an excursion, or was it an additional exhibit?
Michael Hampton
15/12/18 – 06:38
I was a regular in Bognor Regis bus garage from 1964 to 1973 and I never saw KUF 700 do any other work than an occasional schools bus service.
Jersey Motor Transport 1959 Leyland Titan PD2/31 Reading H31/28R
780 JGY is a Leyland Titan PD2/31 with H59R body by Readings of Portsmouth. She was new in 1959, as J 8588, for the Jersey Motor Transport fleet and carries the usual advert for Mary Ann. Is my eyesight playing tricks again or does the bodywork look a bit “Park Royal”? She’s at Amberley on 21 September 1997.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
12/06/15 – 06:11
Did Readings use Park Royal frames hence the similarity?
Philip Halstead
12/06/15 – 07:54
I’m not aware that they ever did, Philip. They always seemed to plough their own furrow and were quite happy to do one-off orders to an individual design. Granted, this body shape is a bit Park Royal’ish, though. Was this one bus the total order for JMT, of its type? It certainly looks very smart, stylish and airy inside.
Chris Hebbron
16/06/15 – 06:51
The Ian Allan ABC British Bus Fleets ‘West of England’ (May 1964) included details of the JMT fleet and has a photograph of number 27 is included. The fleet list shows a batch of 5 Reading bodied Leyland Titan PD2/31s. They were numbered 16 (J 1583); 22 (J 8587); 27 (J 8588); 47 (J 1588) and 52 (J 1528). The dates new are given as 1958 (16, 47 and 52) and 1959 (22 and 27). Whether they all looked similar I don’t know.
David Slater
18/06/15 – 06:11
Jersey Motor Transport (JMT) J 8587 (22) and J 8588 (27) were the second batch of Reading bodied PD2/31 Titans delivered to JMT, arriving in June 1959. These were of a 4 bay design, where as the first batch had 5 bays {please see picture of J 1588 (47)}. No.27 was the last double decker bought new by JMT, ex London Transport RTLs being bought after that.
Also shown is a picture of sister vehicle J 8587 in service in Jersey at The Weighbridge Bus Station for many years the main departure point for JMT services. The rear of J 1528 (52), one of the first batch is seen on the extreme right.
Barrow In Furness Corporation 1958 Leyland Titan PD2/40 Park Royal H33/28R
CEO 956 is a Leyland PD2/40 with Park Royal H61R bodywork from 1958. She was built for Barrow In Furness Corporation (fleet number 169) and we see her parked on Middle Walk, Blackpool, on 29 September 1985. This is a date some of the readership will recognise, as being Blackpool’s Tramway Centenary day and she was taking part in a rally as part of the celebrations.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
03/09/15 – 07:17
What a handsome bus – helped by an attractive livery.
David Wragg
04/09/15 – 07:17
Thank you, David. I’ve always thought the livery bore some affinity with the Birmingham one, likewise that of St Helens (only in red).
Pete Davies
11/09/15 – 07:07
This vehicle along with No.170 (CEO 957), passed to the Furness Transport Group in the late 1970s, subsequently passing on to the Mersey and Calder Group. On Saturday 25th October 1986 it was hired back for one day by Barrow Corporation Transport and operated the final service journey (11pm Town Hall – Abbey Road – Harrel Lane – Washington – Town Hall), thus marking the end of 66 years of municipal transport in the Borough.
Larry B
12/09/15 – 14:22
Honourably bringing up the rear, behind this fabulous Barrow vehicle, is surely one of the splendid Lytham St Annes Leylands too. Those were the days indeed.
Chris Youhill
13/09/15 – 05:49
There’s a name I’m glad to see here again – not Leyland or even Park Royal… or Barrow – but Youhill!
Joe
13/09/15 – 11:15
Thank you so much Joe , that is very kind indeed. I have been through the mill to some tune this last couple of months but am now making the best of it – what else can one do ?? I am definitely not one of those to burden everyone else with my difficulties as this does neither party any good I always feel, so no morbid details here. Thank you once again though for your greatly appreciated concern – I have had many good wishes from various quarters and forums (fora I suppose for Latin aficionado’s) and these of course mean a lot.
Chris Youhill
13/09/15 – 11:15
Enthusiastically seconded, Joe!
Chris Hebbron
15/09/15 – 06:41
Correct, CY, and welcome back. The vehicle concerned is GTB 903. I feel the original is too close-up for submission for Peter to consider.
