Tag: Leyland

Wallace Arnold Tours – Leyland Tiger – LNW 262


Photograph by “unknown” – if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Wallace Arnold Tours Ltd
1947/1950
Leyland Tiger PS1
Burlingham FC33F

This photograph is yet another from my dusty collection, taken by an unknown photographer. It shows Wallace Arnold LNW 262, one of a large batch of Leyland PS1s purchase in the immediate post-war years to get a head start on the newly-emerging leisure and coaching market. It was bought in 1947 with a Burlingham C33F half-cab body. In 1950, following the trend towards “modernisation”, it reappeared as an FC33F.
At the time, WA were constantly swapping bodies and rebodying chassis to create an up-to-date image at the lowest cost, so I’m not sure if this was a completely new body or simply a rebuilt front end. If it was a new body, what happened to its 3-year old original body?
It was withdrawn in 1957 and saw further service with Wilsons of Hunwick, Prospect of Ferryhill, McClean of Govan and finally to Austins of Stafford in 1963 where it seems to have joined its sister LNW 263.
The only sure thing about this photo is the location – the WA depot and workshops, Chadwick Street, Leeds.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Paul Haywood

30/09/12 – 10:44

I’m sorry, but I’ve always preferred the half-cab version of this body. It just looks better. This “grinning” style looks to have been taken as the inspiration for those ‘smiley’ characters which appear on the forum sections of some websites. Was this style of front end some form of inspiration for that variant of the Seagull which appeared on Bedford SB coaches?

Pete Davies

30/09/12 – 12:19

If that’s a conversion it’s been done very neatly!
Interesting to note the sign in the background, as Wilks and Meade were coachbuilders themselves!

David Beilby

30/09/12 – 12:20

I cant argue with that, Pete. Just one point, some of Northern’s Beadle re-bodies didn’t have a bulkhead behind the driver, but its hard to tell if this one does or not, it may only be a half one, in which case the object of the exercise may have been to leave the passengers feeling less cut off from the driver, that said, I still don’t like it.

Ronnie Hoye

30/09/12 – 12:21

My opinion of these sacrilegious “facelifts” intended to deceive the customers in some way is unprintable on a refined Forum like this one. Samuel Ledgard bought a batch of eight most handsome PS1 Tigers with Duple “porch entrance” bodies in 1948. During the madness years of the 1950s these beautiful coaches were subjected to this indignity by the Samlesbury Engineering Company – the first to be treated, LUB 675, was the worst – with small rectangular windscreens with level lower edges – absolutely awful.
Also, in the marketing “spin” frenzy, operators appeared completely oblivious to the maintenance difficulties and to the misting of windscreens which came with these “improvements.”

Chris Youhill

02/10/12 – 15:28

Wilkes and Meade were a Leeds firm who were bought by Wallace Arnold. They were then set to work on the convoluted post war bodying, re-bodying and partial re-bodying programme (putting full fronts on half cabs). They built many new coaches in the late forties – some for outside customers, and also some buses for Sheffield Corporation. They were finally integrated into Wallace Arnold’s maintenance division and the name disappeared into obscurity.

David Oldfield

02/10/12 – 15:30

David B, Wilkes and Meade were actually part of the Wallace Arnold empire so may have had a hand in the rebuilding. It was bought to provide body building/repair facilities for the coach fleet

Chris Hough

02/10/12 – 15:32

This looks like a completely new body to me. The trim above and below the windows, and around the wheel arches, belong to the same style of body as the front end, not to the half-cab style. If it is a conversion then it’s a wholesale update, not just a front-end job. Incidentally the trim above and below the windows was carried forward to the Seagull.

Peter Williamson

02/10/12 – 15:34

Notwithstanding the impracticalities of full-fronted designs that Chris mentions, but just accepting that it was just the ‘done thing’ at the time, I rather liked the Burlingham ‘SunSaloon’. The grille was a touch flashy and garish I know – so were very many other coach builders’ features in the early fifties – but I always thought that these were very neatly shaped at the front, just as their half cabs had been. Whilst most of us are traditionalists and would much more prefer halfcabs, I think one can understand why coachbuilders turned to full-fronts and full-front rebuilds in the circumstances of the time – it’s just that so many made a dog’s breakfast of the job.

John Stringer

02/10/12 – 15:35

This was a new body, a Burlingham Sun Saloon built in 1950. The original body was transferred to a prewar Leyland or AEC as part of the modernisation programme. Wilks & Meade supplied WA with a total of 40 bodies on new and recon chassis in the period 1946-1950, as well as carrying out a good deal of refurbishment and rebuilding work for the operator. A small number of bodied were also built by Wilks & Meade for other concerns. Quite why this coach was at Wilks & Meade’s premises is not clear, one supposes it had been receiving some attention to its body.

Philip Lamb

03/10/12 – 06:16

Excellent observations, gentlemen, thank you.
Philip, the Wilks & Meade sign was attached to the side of WA’s workshop/office/canteen building and the Wilks & Meade workshop was further up Chadwick Street. WA’s large depot had entrances from Chadwick Street and the parallel Sayner Road, so this coach was probably parked awaiting duty or mechanical attention.
When WA moved to Donisthorpe Street as a (long-term) temporary measure, prior to the completion of their Tour Terminal, depot and workshops in Gelderd Road, this whole site was taken over by Wallace Arnold Sales & Service, a Vauxhall main dealership – and is now owned by Evans Halshaw. You can still see the footprint of the old depot on Google.
In my time with WA (mid 60s) there was only one chap still employed from the Wilks & Meades days, a very fine man called Jack Lye, who was obviously much used for body repairs etc. I can still see him walking up the street carrying long lengths of beading to be cut, drilled and applied to some accident damaged coach.

Paul Haywood

03/10/12 – 10:38

LUA 747_lr

Austin of Woodseaves collected quite a large fleet of Tigers which had started life with Wallace Arnold. If you think the Burlingham Sunsaloon body was an abomination, perhaps you should compare it with this one. LUA 747 started life with a Duple “A type” half-cab body, but was modified with a full-front by their in house bodybuilder Wilks and Meade as shown here. Wilks and Meade produced quite a few similar conversions, all of them using the distinctive tin-front and unmistakable “propeller in an oval” design more usually associated with Plaxtons. Odd that Plaxton should allow this – does anybody know why? (copyright unknown)

Neville Mercer

03/10/12 – 17:50

Looks to me as if a complete Plaxton Consort front up to and including the cab window, not just the grille, has been skilfully grafted on. Presumably this was supplied by Plaxton. Makes for an interesting combination!

Philip Lamb

04/10/12 – 07:29

Thurgood also produced some bodies (usually on Bedford SB chassis) in the late 1950s/early 1960s which used an almost identical “Plaxton Venturer” front. I also seem to recall that Dodd of Troon (AA Motor Services) had a Foden PVSC6 with a very similar full front rebuild, although this may have originally been bodied, as a half-cab, by Burlingham. My copy of the Foden chassis list is out on loan at the moment, so I can’t check this. Are there no old-time Plaxton employees on this website who might clarify the reason for all these Venturer lookalikes?

Neville Mercer

04/10/12 – 07:30

Is the result of the grafting known as a “Duplax”?

Phil Blinkhorn

06/10/12 – 07:24

The fitting of the new front end end was done in 1954. From 1952 WA began ordering coach bodies from Plaxton, Plaxton would have been keen to retain their business. Although the work is described as Wilks and Meade to Plaxton design, most, if not all the components must have been supplied by Plaxton. Wilkes and Meade had previously done similar conversions to Yeates design at the same time as Yeates had converted some of WA’s coaches themselves-was this an exercise in keeping Wilks and Meades workshop occupied between car related jobs?

David Hick

11/10/12 – 16:04

As mentioned, Wallace Arnold’s rebodying and rebuilding programme in the late 40s/early 50s was complex, and is documented in PSV Circle publications. In fact the featured coach, LNW 262, was one of four in a chain of body changes.
(1) LNW 262, as has been mentioned, was a 1947 Leyland PS1 with Burlingham half cab C33F body, which it carried till winter 1952/3.
(2) HUA 904, a 1939 Leyland TS8 then received the half cab Burlingham body from LNW 262.
(3) APT 464, formerley Wilkinson’s of Sedgefield, was fitted with the 1939 Duple C32F from HUA 904 by Comberhill Motors (dealer).
(4) NUA 753 was a 1950 Leyland PS2/3/Burlingham FC33F whose body was then transferred to LNW 262 to produce the coach depicted. Its chassis then went to Plaxtons for a new Venturer FC35F8 body.

David Williamson

12/10/12 – 08:12

David, many thanks for the comprehensive body juggling information. As mentioned in other threads and discussions, WA were very money conscious and never failed to spot a bargain when one arose, and they must have calculated that these complex activities were worthwhile. The strange thing is, I doubt if Mr & Mrs Tourist would have been too bothered about touring in a half-cab or a full-front as long as the seats were comfy and the price was right.

Paul Haywood

13/10/12 – 06:33

Interesting point, Paul. It is well known that as soon as underfloor engined coaches made their appearance, halfcabs were considered dead in the water. Despite the regulated environment there was still real competition in the coaching world, and operators could not bear to see a rival operator with more up-to-date stock than they had. And yet, as you say, this may actually have had very little to do with their customers. My family only used coaches for excursions, but I’m quite sure my parents never noticed which of the Albions used by our local operator had full fronts and which were halfcabs. I did of course, but then at the age of 8 I was already a bus freak!

Peter Williamson

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

16/12/12 – 07:37

Regarding Jack Lye from Wilks and Meads (03/10/12 above), there was a George Lye who used to work occasionally in the WA Gelderd Road bodyshop when he was well into his eighties. He loved the job, and was ex Wilks and Meads – could they be the same man? I was at WA 1978 to the end in 2005.

Jon Hartley

16/12/12 – 08:38

Jon – George it was! Thanks for that memory jog. Pleased to learn that he was still involved with WA so late on. Every time I pass the Gelderd Road “wasteland” I can’t believe how such a comparatively modern hive of activity could have disappeared so quickly. As you were there to the “bitter end”, you must share those sentiments. How are the mighty fallen!

Paul Haywood

Sheffield Corporation – Leyland Tiger PS1 – KWJ 103 – 103

Sheffield Corporation - Leyland Tiger - KWJ 103 - 103

Sheffield Corporation
1949
Leyland Tiger PS1 
Cawood B34F

When the Sheffield Strachan-bodied Leyland Tigers were discussed in a previous posting there was mention of a couple of batches bearing Cawood bodies. 103 was one of five for the Joint Committee (B fleet) another five were delivered to the Corporation (A fleet). I think this is parked outside Leadmill garage, waiting its turn for the washer and refuelling as was the norm at Leadmill. If my memory serves me well, the 29 at that time was for Ringinglow, which was a Leadmill route. Behind is TD5/Cravens H55R of 1937 which by the time of the pic was an instruction vehicle. This picture appears in Sheffield Transport by Chas.C. Hall, though I bought mine from RHG Simpson.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Les Dickinson

27/12/12 – 17:05

No. 27 was the Ringinglow route Les. No.29 was a City (Fitzalan Square) to Blackburn (Shardlow’s Works) and was jointly operated with Rotherham CT Dept.

John Darwent

27/12/12 – 17:23

Another example of a ‘B’ fleet bus on a Corporation ‘A’ route.
Would Leadmill garage have that many ‘B’ routes other than Chesterfield via Dronfield and Holmesfield?

Andrew Beever

28/12/12 – 06:40

I believe that the 29 to Blackburn (not the one in Lancashire!) required single deck buses because of a low railway bridge just off Ecclesfield Road. Rotherham used to use centre entrance Bristol single decks for their contribution to the service.

Ian Wild

28/12/12 – 06:41

These PS1’s were allocated to Townhead Street, and I’m pretty sure that’s where this picture is actually taken, on the parking area at the side of the garage where a lot of Townhead’s single-deck allocation were frequently parked, along with several of the training buses. The workers 29 service was, I believe, originally a Townhead duty that eventually ended up being the responsibility of East Bank.

Dave Careless

28/12/12 – 06:44

I rather think the location is Tenter st where single deckers were parked alongside the garage wall as was the norm.

David Grant

28/12/12 – 11:01

Thanks for the info everyone. Leadmill had several B routes Andrew. My home route was the 83 to Birley. Holmesfield (86??) was another, 57 Bradway another. Happy New Year to you all.

Les Dickinson

29/12/12 – 07:00

Interesting that 29 was an “A” route, although it ran outside the city boundary, likewise 69 to Rotherham. I think this was because these ran direct from the city into Rotherham Corporation’s area and did not enter the “B” area.

Geoff Kerr

30/12/12 – 07:21

Les, I’m sure it was a typo, but the 59 was the Bradway route.
Putting B fleet buses on A fleet routes was not unusual as they were jointly owned and could be deployed as required – if not required on B duties. Indeed, at times of heavy transport usage, A fleet buses would be used on B and, sometimes, C fleet routes – especially Easter and Whit Bank Holidays.
B and C fleets were for Railway (rural) routes outside the city area. 29 and 69 were joint agreements with a neighbouring (operating) authority rather than a route taken over with the railway agreement.

David Oldfield

30/12/12 – 07:21

Nobody seems to have asked the vital question.Who were Cawood and where did they come from? Did they build other bodies?

Philip Carlton

30/12/12 – 08:36

David, As a boy I could remember every single route. However there have been many changes since, and I’ve moved around the country a lot. Somewhere along the way I lost my fifties and sixties timetables so depend a lot on memory. (Now what was I saying?) Oh yes, what you say is absolutely correct. I’ve been at Bakewell on a Bank Holiday weekend and seen buses from all three fleets arriving there. My home route, 83 Birley, was a B route but now and again would have one of the 700 series Regents on there. At that time the 95 to Intake was covered by the 700/800 Regents with an odd appearance of a 1200 series Regent. Prior to moving away with my job in 1967 I never ever saw a Leyland on the 95 though I have seen pictures of this since then. 95 was also a Leadmill route. Phillip, there is some explanation of Cawood in another article (about Sheffield’s Strachan bodies I think).

Les Dickinson

30/12/12 – 08:36

Good point, Philip…..

David Oldfield

30/12/12 – 08:49

Dave Careless and David Grant comment on Townhead Street and Tenter Street garages. These were one over the other and in Sheffield’s tram days Tenter Street housed trams. “Sheffield Transport” by Chas Hall shows a line up of the superb Roberts trams on the last day of tram operation by the city.

Les Dickinson

31/12/12 – 17:19

If I remember correctly from my student days in the 60s, all five Sheffield depots in operation then had a mix of A and B routes, but the C routes were concentrated at East Bank and Townhead Street.
Bramall Lane depot was before my time in Sheffield so I don’t know the position there.
Naturally this wasn’t part of my university course and I had to work it out for myself!

Geoff Kerr

01/01/13 – 07:09

There was nothing quite as fascinating as a bus garage when you were a schoolboy bus enthusiast. Being a Rotherham lad, I spent many hours peering through the railings outside the Corporation depot at Rawmarsh Road, but stumbling across one in Sheffield that had trams in the basement and buses on top was truly mind boggling. I’d never scribbled numbers down quite that fast before!
All the Sheffield garages were something special back in those days; Leadmill Road, with the castle-like turrets at each each side of what had been the main doorway when it was Shoreham Street tram depot, was a fascinating building, and the then modern garages at Herries Road and Greenland Road, although perhaps not as architecturally pleasing, were truly a sight to behold late at night, with lights blazing and the forecourts stuffed full of AEC’s and Leyland’s in that remarkable Sheffield livery. Talk about nirvana.
All these years later, in Canada, I have a purpose-built glass-fronted display cabinet in the lounge, full of EFE’s and the like on several shelves. Granted it’s only a display cabinet, but after dark, when I plug in the subdued fluorescent lighting in it, it immediately ceases to be a model cabinet and magically becomes Herries Road garage in 1964!!

Dave Careless

01/01/13 – 07:10

Les. Like you, I am baffled – having only memories of AECs on the 95. [Presumably we have both seen the same picture of a PD2/Weymann.] My maternal grandmother lived on Woodhouse Road and the 95 was in weekly use!
I think Bramhall Lane had Chesterfields before Leadmill – they certainly had the 13** Regent Vs that ran them.
I “left” in 1971, but still have brothers, aunts and uncles whom I visit – as I did last week. I was day-dreaming of Regent IIIs and Chesterfield PD2s passing by my hotel on Chesterfield Road (in the grounds of what was once Jordanthorpe School). Well I am getting old and nostalgic…..

David Oldfield

01/01/13 – 11:18

Does anyone know when Lincs Road Car started their joint service 85 with SJOC between Sheffield and Gainsborough by any chance ? Was it late 60`s ?
Visiting Sheffield to see relatives in the early sixties , I was amazed with the variety in the bus station . Blue Crossley training buses, new Atlanteans ( wow ! ) lots of different types of AECs – nice livery and red wheels . Dead classy I thought !

Steve Milner

01/01/13 – 13:31

The transfer of certain ex Sheffield ‘C’ routes including the 85 was made on 1st January 1970, exactly 43 years ago!

Andrew Beever

01/01/13 – 13:38

Is this an urban myth? I was once told that when the Tories were in power on the City Council the wheels were painted blue and when Labour was in power the wheels were painted red!!!

Philip Carlton

01/01/13 – 16:34

I’ve read this but apparently blue wheels first appeared on the 1966 delivery of Atlanteans when Labour controlled the City Council. The change back to red occurred because no doubt someone decided they looked better.
Service 85 became jointly operated by Sheffield Transport, Lincolnshire Road Car and East Midland as part of the disposal of the JOC C fleet, most of which went to the NBC, as you say, 43 years ago.

Geoff Kerr

01/01/13 – 16:35

Philip no urban myth, I don’t think there was enough time to paint all of them blue.
I must confess I liked the red ones better
Better still one of the local golf courses managed to renegotiate it’s lease with the council at that time.

Andrew Beever

01/01/13 – 17:30

Cheers for the info re the 85 . I have seen a few photos of LHs and REs on the route – no MWs though .

Steve Milner

02/01/13 – 07:28

Some years ago, when the Big Ben’s clock face was being renovated, they found that the black numbers were originally blue. There was some discussion about returning them to blue in the interest of historical accuracy, but Labour objected because it would favour the Tories, so black remained. Childish? Yes! True? Oh, Yes!

Chris Hebbron

02/01/13 – 07:29

Although the agreement relating to the sharing-out of “C” services between Sheffield Corporation and NBC came into effect on 01.01.1970 joint operation of the Gainsborough service didn’t start until the 18th – in the interim period four former “C” fleet Leopards were loaned to the Corporation to maintain the service. Thereafter, Sheffield provided one full-day and two part day duties from Greenland Road (generally using AEC Swifts which had been downseated to provide extra luggage capacity), East Midland provided two all-day duties from Worksop depot (generally using Leopards or REs), whilst Lincolnshire provided one all-day duty from its Retford depot (initially using a newly-allocated LH, but replaced the same year by an RE). Lincolnshire closed its Retford depot on 01.05.72, when most duties on the 85 transferred to Gainsborough depot, though a couple of buses were out stationed at East Midlands Retford depot.
Sheffield continued to outstation one bus at Retford, formerly used on the 85 pre-1970, until the end of April 1972: in recognition of their long service the Retford crew that used to work the 85 were given a duty at East Bank garage which allowed them to run light from Retford to South Anston each morning to pick up service on one of the Dinnington routes to run into Sheffield, work other routes as required, change buses, run back out to South Anston in service, and then light back to Retford – this arrangement ended when the conductor retired, after which the driver travelled to and from Sheffield as a passenger on the 85 to work as a spare driver, until he too retired the following year.

Philip Rushworth

02/01/13 – 09:04

Les, I have found my box of time tables and I have a Sheffield 11/63 to 05/64 #182 if you want to know anything just ask.

Peter

02/01/13 – 14:26

The timetable shows that through passengers on 85 had to change buses at Retford as double-deckers could not work to Gainsborough. In 1969 single-deckers began to run throughout and the 85 was operationally linked to a short A route to Parkway Markets (121).
This practice continued after the 85 had become joint, resulting in the odd sight of an East Midland bus working a Sheffield City service “on hire” – but the Lincolnshire bus did not apparently take part.

Geoff Kerr

05/01/13 – 05:44

Thanks Philip and Geoff for the extra info – great !

Steve Milner

08/01/13 – 07:41

Peter, thanks for the note on timetables – I’ll keep that in mind for my next “starter for 10”. A fascinating garage was Eastbank as it had an extensive roof-top parking area which was often used by withdrawn vehicles, each with the Sheffields lettering / insignia and fleet numbers blacked our prior to sale or disposal.

Les Dickinson

18/01/13 – 16:55

I can recall the rather unusual Cawood bodied Leyland PS1’s running out of Pond Street in the early 50’s on the 21 route to Swallownest via Catcliffe and Treeton. I seem to remember they were used on short workings to Treeton on occasion.

Jerry Wilkes

24/03/13 – 08:03

The very first vehicle to receive blue wheel hubs was No340, Atlantean/Park Royal the Earls Court show vehicle of 1964. The Daimler Fleetline/Park Royals which were delivered that same year had the normal red hubs as did the Neepsend bodied Atlanteans of 1964/5. However, all vehicles delivered during 1966 Atlantean/Park Royal, Atlantean/Neepsend and the Craven bodied Bedford had blue wheel hubs and this was the year in which the Tory party was in charge. Incidentally, No340 was the first in the fleet with blue moquette seats on both decks, the Fleetlines being red/beige on lower deck and red leather upstairs.

Trev Weckert

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

15/02/14 – 06:03

On the subject of Cawoods, it is worth noting that just after WW2 the Thames Valley company was so desperate to rebuild many of its war-worn fleet that a number of them were sent all the way up to Cawoods, including Harrington-bodied Leyland Tiger TS8 coaches and some of the Tiger TS3 and TS4’s re-purchased after being with the military. Full details are in my History of the Thames Valley Traction. Co. Ltd. 1931-1945 and 1946-1960 volumes.

Paul Lacey

Sheffield Corporation – Leyland Tiger – MWA 757 – 57


Copyright R H G Simpson

Sheffield Corporation
1950
Leyland Tiger PS2/1
Strachans B34R

Despite the low fleet number, 57, this was a B fleet vehicle. The computer hadn’t taken over yet. This was one of a batch of eight delivered in 1950. Seen here in Pond Street Bus Station before the concrete and glass version. It could be cold and breezy then but us northerners are made of stern stuff. Ready for service 6 to Kiveton Park in this view but I remember boarding one of these to Eyam on one occasion in the dim and distant past. Photo bought from R H G Simpson many moons ago.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Les Dickinson

10/02/13 – 08:06

Sheffield bought hoards of PS1 Tigers from 1947 but only eleven PS2s. These were a last (half-cab) gasp, the three Weymann examples had been delivered earlier. Apart from the PS1s, there were Weymann/Regals and apart from Weymann PS1s there were five Wilkes and Meade and ten Cawood, already seen on these pages.

David Oldfield

11/02/13 – 07:10

These used to my favourite Sheffield half cab single deckers. I always thought they looked really elegant-but that was from the frontal aspect. This photo shows them to have deep side skirt panels with correspondingly shallow saloon windows. A childhood impression shattered in one photo!!! The 6 to Kiveton Park would be converted to double deck operation in the mid 50s with the arrival of the lowbridge Weymann bodied AECs.

Ian Wild

11/02/13 – 10:19

Yes Ian, but with the 0.600 they would shift…..

David Oldfield

11/02/13 – 10:21

Nice view, Les, but you seem to have caused distress to at least one reader. Go and sit in a darkened room for a week, Ian. You might feel better! I had similar thoughts years ago about a particular steam locomotive. After first seeing it, I spent many years under the impression it was an A4, but it wasn’t . . .

Pete Davies

12/02/13 – 07:03

Yes David, superb performers on the 48 to Manchester

Ian Wild

12/02/13 – 07:04

Going “off piste” mention of A4, I was surprised when I saw a photo of the controls lay out of the recently built “Tornado”, that the controls were exactly the same as the 2-6-2 LNER, Doncaster built tank engine No. 498 which usually pulled our school train to Hamilton (which we sometimes rode illegally on the footplate)

Jim Hepburn

12/02/13 – 10:42

Oh the joys of living pre Health & Safety, Jim.

David Oldfield

12/02/13 – 14:49

On the theme of pre Health & Safety, my friend John Whitaker and I had the free run of climbing into the drivers’ cab of any of the buses at the Bradford Corporation Ludlam Street bus depot on a Sunday morning when it was quiet and there were no bosses around. We were given this freedom by a good neighbour who was a mechanic there, but with the strict instruction not to press the starter button of any of the buses which we pretended to drive. We were still about 11/12 years of age at this time, but what wonderful freedom and trust given by our parents and our neighbour Tony.

Richard Fieldhouse

12/02/13 – 14:50

Ah but never forget, even pre-Health and Safety, it was officially “strengst verboten”! OK Pete, you can’t keep us in suspense any longer. What was the quasi-A4 really and where did you see it? One of the streamlined “East Anglian” B17s or the seemingly jinxed W1 rebuild?

Stephen Ford

12/02/13 – 17:01

An A3, actually, Stephen! 60095 FLAMINGO, at Carlisle in about 1960 or 61. I am supposing it had come off the Waverley route. Looking at views of the two types now, I can understand where I went wrong! It was because of the shape of the firebox. Ah, well!

Pete Davies

Scarlet Pimpernel Motors – Leyland Tiger – JYC 855

Scarlet Pimpernel Motors - Leyland Tiger - JYC 855

Scarlet Pimpernel Motors
1947
Leyland Tiger PS1
Harrington C33F

JYC 855 is a Leyland PS1 with a Harrington Fin C33F body dating from 1947 and registered in March 1948 to Scarlet Pimpernel Motors of Minehead in Somerset, and is now part of the Roger Burdett collection.
It was new to Porlock Weir Motor Services (trading as Blue Motors) in March 1948 with a glorious Harrington “fin” body (the fin is not visible in this picture but you can see it at this Old Bus Photos link). Blue Motors and Scarlet Pimpernel joined to form a new company – “Scarlet and Blue” – in April 1954, into which both fleets were incorporated and progressively repainted into a new red and blue livery, although JYC 855 was an exception and remained in blue. In 1960 the coach moved on to Mulleys Motorways wearing ‘Corona Coaches’ titles for their London-Stowmarket express route.
In the 1970s it moved on to Ebdons of Sidcup (although was probably not actually operated by them) and eventually Toppings Coaches of Liverpool in 1992 (who definitely didn’t operate it). At this point it entered a life of preservation with Essex-based John Brenson in 1995. While there, it was repainted into the Scarlet and Blue two-colour livery and given “Scarlet Pimpernel” titles. It has for about 10 years been the proud possession of Roger Burdett in Coventry. It even has semaphore trafficators! It also happens to be one of my favourite vehicles
Text by Ken Jones & Nick Webster [via Dick Gilbert]
Picture by Ken Jones – taken at Winchester Bus Station 1/1/13 – in “reflective mode”

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ken Jones

02/05/13 – 18:29

We were obviously both at Winchester this New Year – and I had a ride on this impressive vehicle, impressively driven. I am a PD2/PS2 man but, like Granville Smith’s PS1/Plaxton, I couldn’t fault the Scarlet Pimpernel. As they say, when he’s due to appear on a running day – “They seek him here, they seek him there…..”

David Oldfield

03/05/13 – 07:48

Ken, that’s a great bit of photography using the shadows light and reflection almost to perfection. What a pity the slight wind rippled the puddle. I suppose you’ll now tell everyone it was a point and shoot effort. Even if it was it’s a great photo of an historic vehicle.

Phil Blinkhorn

03/05/13 – 07:51

You’ve caught that reflection very well, Ken! Thanks for posting.

Pete Davies

03/05/13 – 07:51

Excellent another perfect capture.

Alan Coulson

03/05/13 – 08:49

It wasn’t quite point and shoot – but it was hand held – no tripod and other fancy gimmicks, plus the coach was moving. Sorry about the ripples at least it was real water. On the positive side the people with the reflective jackets are not in the reflection -pure luck

Ken Jones

11/01/14 – 07:49

SP Poster

I was looking the Scarlet Pimpernel image above and realised I had purchased an original leaflet/handbill? from a transport memorabilia shop on the Wirral.
I hope it maybe of interest.

Harry Cameron

Barton Transport – Leyland Tiger – WAL 782 – 782

Barton Transport - Leyland Tiger - WAL 782 - 782

Barton Transport
1957
Leyland Tiger PS1/B
Willowbrook L61RD

This evocative shot was taken at the 2011 Heart of the Pennines event, and shows the splendid Willowbrook-bodied Tiger rebuild of 1957 arriving at The Piece Hall in Halifax. Not only did it look great, it sounded great too. Barton’s wonderful fleet had many of these rebuilds.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Les Dickinson

31/05/13 – 06:40

And luckily Les, we have the sound of one of them right here on this site. Time for another listen on the ‘Old Bus Sounds’ page!

Chris Barker

31/05/13 – 07:00

Yes, the Barton rebuilds, the Willowbrook batch were modern-looking with clean lines, but then, see how the rear wheels were set well in, betraying their 7`6 heritage. Looking around inside, they were obviously an economy product – very basic lightweight construction and lots of brown paint, but surely that was their specification and in that respect they delivered. I first encountered this one parked outside Loughborough Central station years ago, and was amazed to realise it had survived, a Barton rebuild!!
Never thought I would see one again.

WAL 782_2

Later, I encountered it again, and I attach one of my pics, here at the LVVS open day in November 2010, where it was a regular performer on trips into Lincoln City Centre but here parked among representatives of many past decades. Needless to say, I contrived to be aboard for some of these journeys, and the sound effects revived old memories. On the straight sections, it managed to trigger off the 30mph warning signs.

Rob Hancock

31/05/13 – 17:58

Was the need for the extra short top deck bay structural as it spoils an otherwise well balanced design?

Phil Blinkhorn

31/05/13 – 17:59

I recall about 1964 one of these was hired for an evening educational visit from Long Eaton Grammar School to Breedon on the Hill, out beyond Castle Donington on the old A453. It was a novel experience, as the arched 13ft 9in headroom railway bridge at Sawley Junction (now Long Eaton) station precluded the use of double deckers on the service buses (3, 3C, 10 and 11) that went in that direction. [Most of you will know that the experimental lowbridge layout Dennis Loline 861HAL was a bid to overcome this obstacle, but as even 861 had to take the centre of the road to clear the bridge, its use in service was not permitted – otherwise, who knows, there might have been a fleet of them.] Anyway, back to the Tiger rebuild, our trip left Long Eaton by Derby Road to Breaston, where it turned sharp left over the Old Sawley level crossing, to reach the A453 after a detour of 2 or 3 miles.

Stephen Ford

01/06/13 – 06:23

Phil, I tend to agree with you about the extra short bay spoiling the balance of the design. These vehicles were built to PS1 length and no doubt Willowbrook used their standard length window bays and needed to stick in an extra bit to make up the greater length. The following batch however were bodied by Northern Counties to a nice four bay design and looked much neater. I liked them both though and I had some memorable journeys on them in the early 1970’s on the X42 Derby – Nottingham express via the A52 by-pass!

Chris Barker

24/08/13 – 06:17

WAL 782_2

I was looking through Eddie Collings collection of photos for something and came across the above shot. It is WAL 782 not in Barton livery, it is in preservation and looking at other shots it is at a rally, more than likely down south with the Hastings trolleybus behind it. Was it in service with another operator between Barton and preservation this may explain the different livery.

Peter

29/04/14 – 08:20

These PD1s were always second rate vehicles, still at school l travelled on one on its maiden voyage, school run, later l worked for Barton Transport Ltd and sad to say 6 weeks redundancy under Trent, urrgh, l was in the engine shop, l was for a long time oil engineer (oil changes) l got top money for an unskilled job, but l could do breakdowns recovery the best later on nights running repairs emergency PSV driving, recovery and breakdowns, local and distance, l done the very last run to Skegness with a decker 823, a PD2, l hate the day Trent took us over the family and staff did not want it, have many things to remember it by and my full uniform still fits,

Bill Redfern

29/04/14 – 16:45

A (very) belated reply to Peter’s query on intermediate owners of WAL 782.
According to the PSVC fleet history, 782 was sold to Ensign in 1974; then to Williams, Llangollen, Hollis Queensferry and Cross Roads Travel, Warrington in fairly quick time, before passing to preservationists in Kent in 1978, moving within preservation by 1996 in the Medway area. In recent years it was owned by Quantock MS; I believe it is currently owned by the Barton family, as part of their collection.

Bob Gell

30/04/14 – 07:22

It looks as if it could have been in poppy red and white. Heaven forbid!

Chris Barker

25/05/14 – 14:41

WAL 782

I’ve been going through the “Past Comments” and found this entry which I seem to have missed previously. I note comments about her history. Above is a view of her with Durrant, Sidcup, whilst in the Southsea Spectacular on 8 June 1980. Relax, folks, not poppy red as Chris feared! I believe she was actually new to Bolton Corporation, before her time with Barton.

Pete Davies

25/05/14 – 17:41

The only information I have managed to unearth on the net says that the chassis of WAL 782 was new in 1948 to Knowles & Son of Bolton, registered CWH 262, carrying a Santus C33F coach body. One of the sources is the Classic Bus Website, which is reasonably trustworthy.
The chassis is given as PS1/1 – does PS1/B (top of this page) indicate a Barton rebuild? If so, whose designation is it? I haven’t come across any suggestion that Barton used the vehicle in its coach form, but someone with a Barton fleet history should be able to say one way or the other.

David Call

30/05/14 – 13:04

The Circle fleet history of Barton confirms David’s information above – new in 1/48 as CWH 262 to Knowles of Bolton, with a Santus C33F body; to Enterprise Motors (Blackpool) Ltd in 5/53; then to Goulding and Smyth, Hooton, Cheshire and to Millburn Motors, Preston (dealer), who sold it to Barton. I doubt if it ran for Barton as acquired – more likely it was simply a source of a chassis for rebodying.
According to Alan Oxley’s book on Barton, relaxation of the double deck length to 30 feet allowed PS1 chassis from 27’6” to be rebuilt as double deckers and comply with regulations. He also states 782 and others, were standard Leyland PS1 products, which Barton coded for their own reference as PS1/B. The Circle fleet history records the chassis number as the original Leyland number with a B prefix.

Bob Gell

30/05/14 – 14:43

What do we know about Santus? I’ve never heard of them.

Chris Hebbron

30/05/14 – 15:05

Santus was a coach builder based in Wigan, along with Northern Counties and Massey. At one time there was a preserved Wigan Corporation Leyland Tiger (TS4?) with a Santus body. There was an article in Classic Bus magazine a few years ago about the firm. Apparently there is no connection between the Santus body builder and another firm of the same name also in Wigan which made toffees! Unfortunately I cannot now recall the fate of the Santus body-building company, only that they built saloons and coaches in pre-war days, and possibly early post-war. Can’t access the magazine article at present – Sorry.

Michael Hampton

30/05/14 – 18:13

There is a bit more about Santus on this site- a Bedford OB, it is thought (!) on the Isles of Scilly.

Joe

30/05/14 – 18:14

So, once again, my sources of information are found wanting (NOT Bolton CT!)

 
The Santus-bodied Tiger is indeed a TS4, and I attach a view of her at the WETC open day on 7 October 2012

Pete Davies

30/05/14 – 18:17

Chris, our very well informed fellow contributor to this site, Neville Mercer, has given some information about Santus under the OBP entry for Vics Tours (Isles of Scilly) – Bedford OB.

Roger Cox

31/05/14 – 08:06

Well, once again my knowledge of something somewhat obscure has been satisfied by some knowledgeable folk. Thank you all. Remarkable that Wigan had at least three bus bodybuilders. Did Wigan Corporation show local loyalty by buying examples from all three companies?

Chris Hebbron

01/06/14 – 09:33

Yes Chris, Wigan did support all three Wigan coach builders in pre-war days. I’ve checked my Leyland Society book on the Leylands of Wigan Corporation. This shows Leyland TD1’s purchased and bodied by Leyland itself, plus the three Wigan builders in 1931. Santus also figures as the builder of single-deckers on TS4 and TS7 chassis, like the one shown earlier, now preserved. I think it owes it’s survival to being used as a library for several years. However after 1936, the Corporation used only NCME and Massey, and Leyland itself for its contracts. One batch was bodied by English Electric in 1939. Post-war, the body builder spread continued to be Leyland, NCME and Massey, but not Santus. The book I referred to doesn’t mention any reason for the Corporation excluding Santus from the order book in the later 1930’s. Apparently those supplied were to and “old fashioned” appearance, but this seems to have been a Wigan requirement, and also applied to those buses supplied by the other manufacturers. This still applied to the 1937 TD4s, whose bodied closely followed the 1929 Leyland TD1 design (piano front, etc)!

Michael Hampton

Chris, Wigan Corporation did indeed show loyalty to local manufacturers, as I believe that from 1929 onwards (apart possibly from wartime allocations) it sourced chassis solely from Leyland, and bodywork from either Northern Counties or Massey Brothers, although I’m not sure how many Santus-bodied buses it operated. However, it was no doubt prudent of the Corporation to help the local economy in this way, as many of the bodybuilders’ employees were likely to use the Corporation’s buses to get to and from work etc, thus helping swell the council’s coffers.

Brendan Smith

01/06/14 – 09:35

Certainly not post-war Chris H because Santus didn’t build double deckers. You really should have a look at their coaches though because they were quite unlike any others, I’ve always had a fascination for them and it’s a pity that there are no survivors but build quality put paid to that. They did body just about every chassis going though even if few of them had long lives, I suppose this Barton PS1 was typical, lasting less than ten years with it’s coach body.
It was actually revealed after the article in Classic Bus that the coach building and the confectionery business were in fact related so even though there are no remaining coaches, at least you can treat yourself to a bag of Uncle Joe’s Mint Balls!

Chris Barker

02/06/14 – 07:24

Perhaps the excessive amount of sugar in the mint balls help to speed the decay of the vehicle body. Oh, we’re wandering off topic again!

Pete Davies

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

02/06/14 – 07:26

There is an example of postwar Santus coachwork in preservation, an unusual Seddon Mk IV registered DPR 518. It’s not been active for some time and I only discovered recently that it’s owned by someone I know (albeit not too well). I understand work is progressing on it very well.
With 74 PD1s and 42 PD2s with Leyland bodies and the first postwar Northern Counties and Massey double-deckers not delivered until 1956/7 I wouldn’t actually describe Wigan as loyal to the coachbuilders of the town. They bought just a handful of single-deckers prior to 1956, all with Northern Counties bodies. They clearly liked the Leyland body.

David Beilby

03/06/14 – 07:40

Well David that will ‘learn me’ to read my books more thoroughly, and also to clean my glasses more frequently. When I fished out my book on Northern Counties again, regarding Wigan Corporation it states that from 1930 onwards “bodywork was always built in the County Of Lancashire, and more often than not, supplied by either Northern Counties or Massey Brothers of Wigan”. It was the “more often than not” that failed to register I’m afraid. I should have remembered the Leyland-bodied Leyland Titan PDs, which might have prompted me to think more broadly with ‘local’ meaning Lancashire rather than solely Wigan!

Brendan Smith

Exeter Corporation – Leyland Tiger – EFJ 666 – 66

Exeter Corporation - Leyland Tiger - EFJ 666 - 66

Exeter Corporation
1938
Leyland Tiger TS8
Cravens B32R

Here we have Exeter City 66, a Leyland Tiger TS8 with Cravens B32R body and dates from 1938. It is owned by Colin Shears and is part of the West of England Transport Collection based at Winkleigh in North Devon. Here it is seen in the late evening working a run to the Top of Pennsylvania during the Exeter nocturnal event on 13 /11 2011. I realise there are already pictures of this vehicle on the site but I thought the night shot was a little different.
The next Winkleigh open day is Sunday 6th October 2013 and the next Exeter Twilight event is Sunday 10th November 2013.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ken Jones

02/06/13 – 08:44

A beautiful photo indeed Ken, and the bus stands out bright and clear in the night sky – quite an exceptionally professional exposure I think. On seeing the destination display I couldn’t help being reminded of some other famous buses – in very similar Southdown hues – which carried us to “97 Top of Beachy Head.”

Chris Youhill

02/06/13 – 18:26

The destination Pensylvania reminded me when staying with my aunt and uncle in the village of Staincross to the north of Barnsley, there was a district called California. Are you familiar with this area Chris?

Jim Hepburn

03/06/13 – 07:12

Not sure, but I might have been down this road before – Lincolnshire Road Car used to serve Jericho, Jerusalem and New York, amongst other quaintly-named, and even more quaintly-pronounced places!

Stephen Ford

03/06/13 – 07:13

Photography of the highest standard. Ken never fails on subject and quality.

Alan Coulson

03/06/13 – 07:13

Yes Jim, I have visited friends at Staincross so I know it from that point of view. However the only bus route into Barnsley that I ever worked was the South Yorkshire Road Transport one from Pontefract via Hemsworth, Shafton, Cudworth and Oakwell – jointly operated with Yorkshire Traction who took over all the mileage when we were sold out to West Riding in 1994

Chris Youhill

03/06/13 – 08:38

EFJ 666_2

Here is the same wonderful machine in daylight at South Cerney in 2011. Very rare to see open platform single-deckers at shows. This one was a treat to see and hear.

Les Dickinson

04/06/13 – 06:59

There’s also a Jericho in Bury and Rhodesia near Worksop.

Geoff Kerr

04/06/13 – 09:41

EFJ 666_3

“I’d say that preserved rear-platform single deckers are rare period.
Here’s a photo I took of LGOC T31/UU 6646. at Cobham 2007, showing the rear platform in all its glory.
Interesting that the rear offside seat went all the way to the rear of the vehicle.
Was this common on all such vehicles?”

Chris Hebbron

04/06/13 – 09:42

….and Hermon, Hebron and Bethlehem, all in Pembrokeshire…

Les Dickinson

04/06/13 – 14:29

A ten minute walk down the road Geoff and you’ll find First has a farestage on the T6/T8 Mankinholes Circular called ‘California’.

John Stringer

20/06/13 – 07:11

Could someone tell me what were the oblong tanks for, below the N/S/F windows please?

Andy Fisher

20/06/13 – 13:23

That looks to me like an Autovac, which was in simple terms a header tank for the fuel. I’ve not had much involvement with it but I think it was a system that used induction vacuum to pull air up from the tank. By having a reservoir it ensured that some fuel was available to start the engine.
The alternative method of getting fuel up from the tank was the lift pump which was usually on the side of the injection pump.

David Beilby

20/06/13 – 13:23

In answer to Andy Fisher, the tank is an Autovac, which draws fuel up from the tank and supplies it as needed to the fuel injection pump. I always feel that a visible Autovac adds something to the look of a bus.

Ian Thompson

20/06/13 – 13:24

No problem Andy – the little tanks are for for the “Autovac” fuel lift system and for some reason, even in my infancy, they fascinated me and caused me to view any vehicle without one as “lacking in style.” Of course in those early days I had no idea what they were for !!
As can be seen in the photo, the Autovac caused little forward distraction to front seat passengers on the Exeter Leyland, but on the Bristol/ECW it is more visible from within – no detriment of course to the superb Bristol vehicles.

Chris Youhill

20/06/13 – 13:26

Andy the tank is the Autovac. Some useful info here: //www.autovac.co.uk/

Phil Blinkhorn

21/06/13 – 09:59

One other preserved rear entrance open platform saloon is an Edinburgh Guy Arab III with MCW bodywork. For some of its life it was a driver trainer and had the offside bulkhead window removed. A ride on this proved perhaps the noisiest ride on a bus I’ve ever had! Five cylinder Gardners and Halifax hills don’t mix!

Chris Hough

28/07/14 – 17:52

There is a link here to another Craven bodied single decker, but this one is a Karrier built for the LMS and operating on the road in Stratford upon Avon but it then went by rail to Blissworth.
There is a family similarity about the contours of the cab/roof area. //railwaywondersoftheworld.com/coaches-rail.html

John Lomas

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

26/02/19 – 07:13

Used in the final 10 minutes of the film “The Remains of the Day” 1993, where Anthony Hopkins and Emma Thompson say their farewell…..Sorry if someone else has already listed this.

Mark Jordan

West Riding – Leyland Tiger PS2 – EHL 336 – 725

EHL 336

West Riding Automobile
1953
Leyland Tiger PS2/12
Roe C35F

EHL 336 affectionately known as Ethel, or if you are a chemist like me Ethyl, is a Leyland PS2 from 1953 with imposing 30ft x 8ft body. It was new as West Riding fleet number 725, and saw further use with Boddys of Bridlington before being preserved. Restoration was completed in 2011, the year this picture was taken. It is part of the Roger Burdett collection. This year (2013) sees it celebrating its 60th birthday – that’s only a year younger than the photographer.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ken Jones

08/08/13 – 07:36

Oh what a beauty! Needs little elaboration.

David Oldfield

08/08/13 – 07:36

Part of Roger’s collection, and among Ken’s photographs. Only three words: “Thank you” and “Excellent!”

Pete Davies

08/08/13 – 10:25

EHL 336_2

I was the last Boddys driver to drive EHL from Hull to Brid were it was parked awaiting collection by the West Riding Group.

Ken Wragg

08/08/13 – 19:16

What a gem! Everything about the design and livery works a treat. The preservationists have done a superb job.

Chris Hebbron

09/08/13 – 07:51

Charles H Roe at his/their best. I suppose this is basically the same body as Lancashire United’s Guy Arab III coaches.

David Oldfield

09/08/13 – 15:28

To my eye, this body looks similar to Duple C33F of 1948 of Wallace Arnold as shown on this site under Duple.

Jim Hepburn

10/08/13 – 09:26

Lovely coach – a true classic. It’s interesting however that the two biggest independents in those days, West Riding and LUT, both went for traditional half cab coaches when the underfloor models were virtually the norm for most operators of heavyweights by 1953.
If West Riding had adopted a similar traditional approach a few years later for their double-deck purchases and gone for the Guy Arab rather than the revolutionary but ill-fated Wulfrunian (as indeed LUT did) they might have stayed in business as an independent for a lot longer. But then hindsight is something we don’t always have.

Philip Halstead

10/08/13 – 12:00

To be fair, Philip, they did. They had quite a few Arab IVs prior to the Wulfrunians – which were a joint development (even at the prompting of West Riding). As you said, interesting – but more so that they had the same design of Roe coach.

David Oldfield

10/08/13 – 18:42

The Arab IVs seemed to go on and on. We have discussed the Wulfrunian here before, but it could be that despite its inherent flaws, the winners are writing the history books. Leyland produced a bit of a lemon too in the Atlantean, but had the clout to make it work. Now what was wrong with the AEC Q?

Joe

11/08/13 – 06:53

There’s a challenge to the engineers and traffic officers…. What made the Fleetline so good and reliable and the Atlantean a lemon? Why was the AN68, in contrast, so good? What was wrong with the Q? Just too advanced for its time.

David Oldfield

26/08/14 – 06:46

Where is EHL 335 on view? I missed it at Heath Common.

Tim Thomas

26/08/14 – 10:44

EHL 336_2
EHL 336_3

I attach a couple of views of the wonderful West Riding vehicle which already appears on your pages. These were taken by myself at the Gloucestershire Steam Fair in 2011. It not only looked good but sounded good too.

Les Dickinson

26/08/14 – 13:48

Sister vehicle EHL 335 is now in the care of the Aire Valley Transport Group.

Chris Hough

Joe asks why the Q didn’t work. It did as a single decker, provided it was London Transport running them. The double decker did not work for a number of reasons but the main ones were cooling or the lack of and the dodgy handling that was caused by the short rear overhang and the single rear wheels.
The combination of the two and other weaknesses led to most being sold early.
Geoffrey Hillditch’s Another Look at Buses goes into some detail, including looking at the maintenance records of the sole Halifax bus.

Stephen Allcroft

Wakefields Motors – Leyland Tiger TS8 – FT 45?4 – 104


Photograph by “unknown” – if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

Wakefields Motors
1937
Leyland Tiger TS8
Duple C30F

Regarded by many as one of the most handsome pre war coach bodies, if my information is correct, Wakefields Motors had four of these C30F Duple Coronations. FT 45?4/7 – 104/7, from 1937, were on a Leyland Tiger TS8 chassis.


Photograph by “unknown” – if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.

They were followed in 1938 by another four FT 49?? 108/11 but this time they were AEC Regals. The four Leylands spent some of the war years in Ireland on hire to the Northern Ireland Transport board. As a young boy of eight, I can remember them still being at Percy Main when the Beadle rebodied AEC’s arrived in 1952 & 53, they were eventually replaced by the Weymann Fanfares of 1955. I know many quality pre war chassis were being rebodied at that time, but I don’t know if these were. For those who don’t remember real money, the board at the front of the AEC, two shillings, 2/- is 10p.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye

14/04/15 – 06:59

The AEC is standing at the top of South Parade outside Quickfalls shop in Whitley Bay, who acted as booking agent for Wakefields. After picking up here, the coach would then pick up at Cullercoats, Tynemouth, North Shields and Wallsend. When I was quite young, my parents took me on a half-day tour to Rothbury and Cragside, for which one of the pre-war half-cab coaches was provided, although I don’t recall if it was an AEC or Leyland. For a tour like this going north, it would start in Wallsend with Whitley Bay as the last picking up point. The route then taken would be via Seaton Delaval and the A192 to Morpeth and then I think via Longhorsley, returning via Scotsgap or vice versa. On the return journey, there would be a break at Morpeth. Rothbury was a place we enjoyed visiting, and we used at one time or another all three tour operators from Whitley Bay, the others being Priory Coaches and United. Priory’s booking agent and pickup point was at the foot of North Parade, and as far as I can recall, they provided a Bedford SB coach. United, of course used the Bus Station and regrettably, provided a bus for the tour, admittedly an almost new Bristol LS5G, but still a bus, which did nothing to improve my parents low opinion of United as a tour operator. On the whole, we much preferred Wakefields, and over the years travelled on most of their day and half-day tours.

John Gibson

15/05/15 – 06:36

Just a shot in the dark on behalf of a friend. Did Wakefields by any chance have a livery of green and cream, presumably before WW2, and did they ever have any of the Northern GT “SE4 or SE6 saloons ??
Any pertinent information would be much appreciated thanks.

Chris Youhill

15/05/15 – 11:40

Chris, this is a round the houses way of saying, I don’t know, but my records would suggest that if the livery was green, it would be pre 1929. Wakefields Motors Limited, were founded in 1919, their depot was in Church Way North Shields. At a date I have not been able to establish, they became a subsidiary of The London North Eastern Railway Company. In 1929, they bought Archer Bros of North Shields, this increased the fleet to 43, 31 buses and 12 coaches, also in 1929, L.N.E.R purchased an interest in the NGT group, the name was retained, but Wakefields adopted NGT livery, and all new vehicles were numbered as part of the Tynemouth & District fleet, but they had a ‘W’ prefix. In 1933, NGT opened a new depot at Percy Main, all T&D and Wakefields vehicles were rehoused there, the remaining Wakefields vehicles were also renumbered. The Wakefields depot was sold off, as was the T&D depot in Suez Street North Shields, but the depot in John Street Cullercoats became the NGT group body and paint shop. Percy Main had eight NGT/SE6 vehicles, FT 3478/3482 – 82/86 from 1935; and FT 3903/3905 – 90/92 from 1936; to the best of my knowledge, none of them carried the Wakefields name. Until 1970, the name was in continuous use on some service buses, and all Percy Main based coaches, in 1975 all P/M vehicles were renamed Northern.

Ronnie Hoye

East Kent – Leyland Tiger – CFN 104

East Kent - Leyland Tiger - CFN 104

East Kent
1948
Leyland Tiger PS1/1
Park Royal C32R

CFN 104 is a Tiger PS1/1 from the East Kent fleet. She has Park Royal body, listed as C32R. It has been discussed at length on these pages in the past, but I find it annoying that the vehicle clearly has a door, but the standard PSVC terminology doesn’t mention the feature. She is seen in the shot above at Amberley on 13 September 2009.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

02/07/14 – 11:02

To my eye the best-looking of all postwar coaches: straight waistline, restrained curvature elsewhere, radiator unashamed to be what it is, perfect choice of colours in simple livery. But I still wish that Leyland had offered a 5-speed box for the PD1/PS1; I’m not sure whether the advertised prewar 0.77:1 bolt-on overdrive (does anyone know of any actual examples?) was still available after the war. I suspect not.
Thanks for the posting, Pete.

Ian T

02/07/14 – 17:57

Quite simply, a glorious dignified classic vehicle – today’s designers and marketing gurus please note. What I would give to drive this wonderful vehicle for a good distance, or at all !! I must say that I was unaware of an optional overdrive (or “super top”) being offered on the prewar range, and no doubt such a fitting would have given the vehicles a higher top speed with economy, but perhaps Company engineers had some fear of torque issues – just an uninformed thought !!

Chris Youhill

02/07/14 – 17:59

There was always something special about these East Kent coaches, although I only saw a few of them when living in London, with an occasional trip to Dartford.
I love the light paintwork where the side-board is. I seem to recall that the pre-war overdrive unit was not carried forward postwar, Ian. Did they offer two-speed or re-geared rear axle, perhaps?

Chris Hebbron

13/06/17 – 07:31

I was wondering why the writer was surprised that the vehicle in question should not have a rear passenger door.
Thanks for interesting site.

Garth Wyver

13/06/17 – 09:14

Like Ian T, I know of no Leyland Tigers or Titans with an overdrive fitment. I am sure that, had one been available for the PS1, East Kent would have tried it out. The Company had a sizeable fleet of Dennis Lancet buses and coaches, all with the five speed ‘O’ type gearbox, and these, even the pre war four cylinder O4 powered versions, could really fly on an open road.

Roger Cox

15/06/17 – 07:13

In response to Garth’s comment, I was not surprised that the coach has a door with a rear-entrance. I would expect one wherever the entrance is, as in CxxF, CxxC or CxxR. I have never understood the idea which came (I believe in the 1930s) from the PSV Circle and the Omnibus Society that only double deckers should have the RD or R suffix. If you’re doing it for a double, why not for a single? Never mind – I’ve mentioned before in these columns that I’m glad am I not and never have been a member of either group. If I had been, they’d have roasted me for heresy years ago!
Oh, and what a wonderful Captcha code on this RM54

Pete Davies

09/08/19 – 08:52

Please can you tell me why the seats are not side by side but slightly back by about 2 inches? The driver at Tinkers Park was not sure why

Anon

10/08/19 – 07:40

My understanding of the seat situation is that it emphasised the luxury coach aspect of these vehicles. The passenger nearest to the gangway could see past the passenger nearer to the body side more easily for the view out of the windows – “oh! look at that lovely valley / hill / church / pub” or whatever. Otherwise the inside passenger is always having to lean forward, instead of enjoying the luxury seating.
Re the PSV Circle designation of CxxR, without a D for the door; when the codes were drawn up in the 1940’s virtually all rear-entrance coaches would have had a door as standard, to ensure passenger comfort and safety. However vehicles on bus work with a rear entrance were nearly all open platform – doors were exceptional until the mid-fifties, and by no means universal from then. So presumably the PSVC experts decided to only draw attention to the exceptions rather than the regular understood usages of the day. Of course, fashions and designs in coaching and service buses change, so these designations are presumably reviewed by those who decide such things, while trying to be consistent with past practice. I’m not a committee member of PSVC, only just commenting on my observations over the years.

Michael Hampton

10/08/19 – 07:42

At a guess, the offside emergency exit at the front would make it desirable for the seats to be set further back to give sufficient clearance. In contrast the seats on the nearside will be constrained by the rear doorway.
There is no real reason for the seats to be in line and the seat pitches can vary as they are spread out to fit the available space which is likely to be different on each side.

David Beilby

Ribble – Leyland Tiger – FV 5737 – 753

Ribble - Leyland Tiger - FV 5737 - 753

Ribble Motor Services
1936
Leyland Tiger TS7
Duple C31F

FV 5737, Leyland Tiger TS7, was new to W C Standerwick of Blackpool in 1936. In the post-war years, she was transferred across to the Ribble fleet and given this Duple C31F body in 1950. In the renumbering system, she became 753. She’s seen at the Winkleigh Open Day on 7 October 2012.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies

14/02/15 – 13:03

It would appear that the petrol engine was changed for an oil engine at the same time as the re-body. It still kept its starting handle but I doubt it was ever used I have heard you could do yourself some serious injury if you didn’t get it quite right.

Trevor Knowles

14/02/15 – 17:14

These had been rebodied with 8ft. wide bodies, resulting in a nice looking coach, just spoilt by having to retain the original 7ft 6in. wide axles and resulting in the wheels being set back inside the wings and wheelarches. I suppose since prewar chassis were never built to the greater width, the wider axles would not be available as they would be with postwar models.

John Stringer

14/02/15 – 18:21

Trevor, I have heard a similar story about fairly serious consequences arising if the user of the starting handle didn’t keep out of its way!
Yes, John, it does skew the appearance a bit, but I suppose the other side of the coin is that the wheels are further into the mudguards, so there’s less of a “splash factor” for other road users to suffer.

Pete Davies

16/02/15 – 06:48

I served a 6 year apprenticeship at Ribble main workshop Frenchwood Preston till about 1961. I do remember foreman Sid Liptrot using a heavy chain to start a diesel Tiger, must have been mad. The petrol engine Cheetah sounded like a Rolls Royce. Probably best company in UK.

Raymond Hollebone

24/09/19 – 04:22

New in 1935 and rebodied in 1948 (I should know I spent my childhood on 753 rallying every weekend).

Peter Robinson