E J Deeble Liskeard 1955 Leyland PSUC1/2 Harrington C41C
E J Deeble operated some local services in the Liskeard area of Cornwall. In June 1978 this coach originally owned by Silver Star, Porton Down who sold out to Wilts and Dorset in the 1960s was operating a service outside Liskeard Railway Station – a commendable bus/rail link. Note the raised front headboard above the destination boxes where the Silver Star motif was originally fitted. This bus can’t have been ideal for local service work because of its centre entrance.
I have been interested in this operator since I first saw a picture of 2 of their Leylands, a Cub and Comet in the book ‘Buses in Camera South West’ by Norman Aish, published in 1977. About 25 odd years ago returning from Cornwall to the Midlands I decided to take detour to Upton Cross, there I found in a Portacabin office a Mr Deeble who explained to me he was the son of the founder. He went on to chat about the company saying where ever possible they bought Leylands . He also related the story of a new Comet chassis that was shipped to a local bodybuilder (non PSV, I can’t remember the name). When the vehicle was complete it was found to be too tall to exit the building. The answer was to remove the wheels and drag the vehicle out on its hubs! (I have no idea if this is true but it is what I was told). Mr Deeble also said that the single vehicle garage next door, was not only built by his father, but he made the bricks as well! I could have chatted for ages but as my wife was waiting patiently in the car I decided it best to resume my journey to the Midlands. So a random detour proved very successful on that occasion.
John Rentell
06/05/20 – 07:21
Further to my post above concerning the Deeble Leyland Comet with a locally built body I have come across the following details in a list kindly supplied by Roger Grimley some years ago.MRL 910, Leyland Comet with a 33 seat Mashford body new on 5/50 and withdrawn on 5/71 after accident damage. As I have not heard of Mashford previously I am wondering if this is the vehicle Mr Deeble was referring to as a local body builder. If anyone has a picture I’d love to see it.
John R, no picture, I’m afraid, but apparently Mashford Brothers were boat builders who had a go at building coaches for a while. They were/are based in Cremyll, Cornwall and it seems they are still in business today as boat repairers.
Chris Barker
08/05/20 – 06:19
John, there’s a photo of MRL 910 (when past its best) on flickr – https://flic.kr/p/RMTprx – new to Deeble 5/50. According to James Taylor in his book A-Z of British Bus Bodies, Mashford built six bodies at their boatyard at Cremyll, two in 1948, two in 1949 and two in 1955. The first two were Bedford OB, ECO 746 and ECO 997 for Millbrook Steamboat and Trading Company. The remaining four are captured by photographs on flickr. MRL 764, Austin for Hawkey, Wadebridge – https://flic.kr/p/xXkkAf MRL 910 as above and URL 838/9 for Willis, Bodmin – https://flic.kr/p/xYtRjG
David Williamson
10/05/20 – 06:52
David, thank you for sending these links. When the first Mashford body appeared on my screen I was not sure what to expect, however I think they look pretty good, identifiable by there own style side flashes. The Deeble Comet looks to have suffered serious damage to the off-side front, so understandably it was withdrawn, but apart from that it looks OK for a 20+ year old motor. If I can just master printing from FLICKR I can add these shots to my lists of these operators.
West Bromwich (County Borough of) Transport Department 1958 Leyland Tiger Cub PSUC1/4 Mulliner B39R
This was one of three buses purchased by West Bromwich in 1958, which were unusual for two reasons. Firstly they represent a rare foray by Mulliner into the full size bus market; they were known for their bodies on smaller Bedfords, with substantial numbers delivered to the armed forces. Secondly, the provision of a rear entrance on a single deck vehicle was completely out of fashion by this stage, and I am unaware of any other examples on underfloor chassis types. One wonders what the reasoning behind this was, as well as the choice of Mulliner for the bodywork. I can only hazard a guess that none of the major bodybuilders were prepared to do so as they had by this stage all settled on a standard forward entrance design, whereas Mulliner were prepared to build to a bespoke design. Subsequent single deck purchases like 250 to its left were conventional; by this time Mulliner had ceased coachbuilding.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Alan Murray-Rust
15/02/21 – 06:07
Although not common rear entrances on underfloor engined single deckers did exist elsewhere. Accrington had them on East Lancs bodied Guy Arab LUF’s and Manchester on Leyland Royal Tigers bodied by Northern Counties. North Western had some Weymann bodied Atkinsons also. I think Southdown and Aldershot & District also had some but I would bow to our southern experts on that.
Philip Halstead
15/02/21 – 06:08
There were other examples of underfloor single deck service buses without front entrances. Sheffield had a couple of Royal Tigers with open platform rear entrances and Doncaster (Regal IV) and SHMD (Atkinson) had centre door configurations. I believe there were similar examples in Scotland which I am sure other contributors will be able to list.
Andrew Charles
15/02/21 – 06:09
North Western Road Car Company had rear entrance single deckers. Here is a picture of Atkinson Alpha, fleet number 512, (FDB 512) with a B44R Willowbrook body.
Stephen Howarth
15/02/21 – 15:19
What an unusual vehicle! Not just the body builder and entrance layout but the chassis as well. PSUC1/4 refers to a 7’6″ wide pneumocyclic gearbox version. I would think that is a pretty rare beast.
Ian Wild
15/02/21 – 15:20
East Yorkshire stuck with rear entrances into the underfloor-engined era, having Royal Tigers with Windover Kingsway coach bodies and Brush and Weymann bus bodies (the Weymann ones being later rebuilt as front entrance by Roe). Both East Yorkshire and Yorkshire Traction had Tiger Cubs with Willowbrook DP rear entrance bodies. Pontypridd UDC had some Arab LUFs with Roe bodies, and Edinburgh had one Leyland/MCW Olympic.
Southdown did indeed have a batch of 10 Royal Tigers No’s 1500-1509 with East Lancs B40R bodies delivered in 1952. In 1953 these were followed by a further batch of 30 similar but centre entrance bodies again by East Lancs all of which were converted to front entrance for one man operation in the early sixties and very comfortable buses they were too.
David Lennard
16/02/21 – 05:49
Another unusual, even unique, feature of these Mulliner Tiger Cubs was that they had full bulkheads, confining the driver to his own full width cab. It can be made out in this photo – https://flic.kr/p/wXJyEo Another website explains that rear entrances were specified because the spacing of town centre bus stops was based on rear entrance buses and it was felt that front entrance buses would lead to bus stop congestion. This view no longer prevailed when the next single deckers were acquired.
David Williamson
16/02/21 – 05:50
Thanks to all for the pointers to other rear entrance/underfloor vehicles. I suspect that it was a result of my not really becoming interested in buses until the mid 1960s that I was unaware that there were in fact quite so many, as I suspect that the majority had relatively short lives due to being unsuitable for OPO. Trawling BLOTW shows that the bulk of them date from between 1951 and 1954. The stand-out ones are Accrington (1956) and Pontypridd (1957), but as far as I can see, the West Brom ones were the last of the breed. It was the late date of construction for the layout that surprised me. Of particular interest are the two Royal Tigers for Sheffield, which are shown as B31R, which the discussion here //www.sct61.org.uk/sh222a shows is the result of the buses being designed for a significant number (26 to 31 depending on the source!). That page also drew my attention to another real oddity – the set of 8 Dennis lancet UF2 with unusual Davies bodies that Newport purchased in 1956/7. I should have remembered as I do have a picture of one of them!
Alan Murray-Rust
18/02/21 – 07:18
Referring back to the original post which suggests that this bus was a rare foray by Mulliner into the full size bus market. In the same year as the three West Bromwich examples were produced Mulliner also built a pair of bodies on AEC Reliance chassis for Douglas Corporation, these followed on from five normal control Guys delivered the previous year.
Andrew Charles
18/02/21 – 07:18
An illustrated short history of Mulliners may be found on the Local Transport History Library site. Select General History, and on that Coach Builders page click on PDF-129-1. Mulliners is near the bottom.
Roger Cox
20/02/21 – 07:17
Municipal ordering begins with an invitation to tender. It’s doubtful if Mulliners would normally have responded to these. However, if Bedford chassis lists are anything to go by, it seems that their military work dried up in mid-1957, hence perhaps the turn towards mainstream PSV work illustrated by their bizarre full-size coach for the 1958 Commercial Motor Show. Even if their tender for this small batch of very non-standard Tiger Cubs (7’6″ wide as well as rear-entrance) was not the only one received, it could well have been the lowest. It seems that they gave up and sold out shortly after.
Alpine Travel 1958 Leyland Tiger Cub PSUC1/2 Duple Britannia C41F
Photographed in Llandudno some ten years ago is this Hughes Bros Alpine Tours Tiger Cub WND 477, which started life in August 1958 with Spencer Tours of Manchester. This firm merged with Smiths of Wigan which later became part of Shearings. On my several visits to Llandudno over past years it has always been this coach waiting in readiness for its Great Orme trip, and I have never encountered its fellow Tiger Cub BCJ 710B with Harrington Grenadier C45F coachwork of July 1964.
Kingston upon Hull Corporation Transport Leyland TB2 1937 Weymann H28/26R
The first trolleybus route in Hull commenced in June, 1937. It replaced the tram route SWC, but not directly, as a short lived motorbus service, numbered 12 ran in the interval between the end of the trams and the start of the trolleybuses. The route ran along Spring Bank, Spring Bank West and Chanterlands Avenue. A new route number series for trolleybuses was instituted at this time, the first number being 61, along with a short working to Goddard Avenue turning circle, which was numbered 61A. This latter was renumbered to 65 in 1943. To start the service, along with the Newland Avenue (62, 62A) routes, 26 trolleybus chassis were purchased from Leyland. These were of the TB2 type, equivalent to the Titan TD2 chassis. Numbers were 1 to 26, which commenced a separate series from the motorbuses. Registrations were CRH 925-50. The trolleybuses carried the newly introduced streamline livery. During the war, in 1941, due to service cuts four trolleybuses (1 to 4) were loaned to Pontypridd UDC, being returned the following year. No 3 is shown at the Old Bridge in Pontypridd, seeming to be causing interest to the gentleman on the bridge! Although still carrying the streamline livery, the white has been over painted in a light blue colour, making the livery a two-tone blue. Of note is the pre-war “HULL” on the upper deck side panels, and “Corporation Transport” being on white lozenges. I have seen this batch also quoted as being of the TB4 type, but if anyone can provide a definitive answer I would be grateful. Chassis numbers were in the series 12280 to 12306.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Keith Easton
I wonder who over-painted the white to light blue – Hull or Pontypridd? Interesting photo – not many wartime photos exist, especially of those who went to foreign climes for a while! Headlamps restricted and white painting around the front edge, but no window netting. Maybe they didn’t feel there was a strong likelihood of air raids in that area. Pontypridd must have had an acute shortage of buses/trolleybuses in the war, for Portsmouth Corporation sent several trolleybuses there, too. Imagine having to tow and steer these vehicles such long distances!
Chris Hebbron
I believe that Hull was responsible for the over-painting, as native buses and trolleybuses were also treated similarly. I cant say about window netting, as I’m not quite that old! Hull certainly did have some air-raids during the war, and lost 35% of the bus fleet in May, 1941. No trolleybuses were affected, however.
Keith Easton
The over painting was carried out by the Transport Department over a period of ten days in late May 1941. All trolleybuses were parked along main roads at night to prevent their loss if a garage was hit by bombs but the white could be seen from the air and the undertaking was asked to do it, Geoff O’Connell (whose father was an inspector) told me that he remembered seeing TB7 no 52 being all blue at the front and offside but with normal livery on the other!
Malcolm Wells
Hi Malcolm, can we can confirm that these trolleys were actually TB4 and not TB2? I have seen them quoted with both model types but the date would make TB4 more likely. I have a photocopy sheet from Geoff, which shows the layout of the original Black on white blinds, with routes 61, 61A, 62, 62A, 62B, 62C, 63, 63A, 64, 64A, 65 and 66. Of course the 65 and 66 were not operated as such, but were the 62B and 62C ever operated? The ‘A’ route numbers are shown as being blanked out along with 65 and 66. You mention the Anlaby Road route as being 99, but I have no record of this, was it actually used in service?
Keith Easton
Do not know if the following will help but the dates below are for when the TDs first appeared.
The reference to service 99 was a typing error – it was 69. Leylands 1 to 26 were designated TD4 in the original tender from Leyland Motors in July 1936 and this was quoted in the minutes but was subsequently altered to TB4. The 62B and 62C were never operated but no reason for doing so has ever come to light although a difference in headways might have contributed – there were more trolleybuses per hour on Beverley Road than on Newland Avenue.
Malcolm Wells
I’m sure most people who have posted on this subject already know this but there are some really fantastic short videos on YouTube concerning Hull trolleys and motor buses from before WW2 to the present day. It seems Hull has been more fortunate than many places in having such a wonderful pictorial transport record!
Chris Barker
25/02/14 – 16:12
Having lived in Hull from 1946 to 1963, I can clarify the route number situation. 61 was Chantlands Avenue (up to Cottingham Road) 65 was the shortened version of 61 terminating about 200 yds from the start of Chantlands Avenue- peak only 62 was Princes Av/Newlands Av (to Cottingham Road) 66 was the shortened version of 62 terminating at Pearson’s Park. 63 was Beverley Road (up to Cottingham Road) 67 was the shortened version of 63 up to Pearson’s Park – peak only All of the above originally ran on the pre-war Leyland Buses, but were replaced in 1950 by the forward control dual entrance and dual staircase Sunbeams – which were supposed to have counters on the stairs with the forward staircase for ascending and the mid-bus staircase for descending- this was not a success. 64 was Holderness Road 68 was the shortened version up to East Park – peak only. These used the 1940 Leyland vehicles for the duration of the trolleybus system 69 Analby Road – almost to Boothferry Park (There were 169 and 269 shortened but these did not come about until after the end of the trolleybus system) 70 Hessle Road – almost to City Limits (a shortened version (170 or 270) ran but only after the end of the trolleybus system. All 69’s and 70’s used 1948 vehicles which (from memory) were B.E.T. (which was a joint A.E.C./Leyland venture) for the duration of the trolleybus system.
Frank Burgess
26/02/14 – 07:52
The joint Leyland and AEC was actually BUT. They also supplied engines for early railway Diesel Multiple Units. The sight of Hull trolleys in Pontypridd must have confused any potential German Spies!!!!
Philip Carlton
26/02/14 – 12:13
Chris Hebbron is certainly right in an early comment that Pontypridd needed extra vehicles during the war. However the Portsmouth and Hull trolley-buses were probably not operated concurrently. The main caption above mentions the Hull quartet on loan to Pontypridd in 1941 to 1942. The Portsmouth quartet went to Wales in August 1942, so presumably were replacements for the Hull ones returning north. Pontypridd gained an extra six seats per vehicle. But they lost out on standardisation, as two Portsmouth vehicles were AEC 663T, and two were Sunbeam MS3s. Two had MCCW, and two EEC bodies, one on each make of chassis. Also two had EEC motors, but one regen the other augmented field, the other two having BTH motors, one regen, the other regulated field. Such was Portsmouth’s desire to experiment! None of them had traction batteries, and had been in storage at Portsmouth since c.1940 so that they wouldn’t block the streets in the event of power cuts due to bombings etc. Three of them stayed at Pontypridd until November 1945, the fourth returning in August 1946.
Michael Hampton
26/02/14 – 16:40
Can I provide the following route details at 1 January 1958: 61 Chanterlands Avenue North 62 Newland Avenue (Cottingham Road) 63 Endike Lane – much further north than Cottingham Road – there were no turning facilities at the eastern part of Pearson Park on Beverley Road 64 Ings Road 65 Goddard Avenue – short working of the 61 – originally the main service – was used at peaks and during the day in later years 66 Pearson Park – short working of the 62 – used only in days immediately preceding holidays such as Christmas 68 East Park – short working of the 68 – alternate trolleybuses turned here from 29 June 1952 69 Meadowbank Road – extended from the roundabout at the Boothferry Road junction on 30 March 1947 70 Dairycoates – well short (over a mile ) of the city boundary. 71 Boulevard – short working of the 69 – used for rubgy league specials on Saturdays (mainly) The twenty Leyland TB7s (nos 47-66) were delivered in the Summer of 1939 – Nos 47/48/51/52 were licensed from 1 August 1939. By December 1960 only seven were left (48/54/55/61/63/64/66) and several Crossley TDD4s were sent to Holderness Road to maintain the 64/68 service. All seven were withdrawn on 28 January 1961 when service 70 was withdrawn. KHCT never operated BUT trolleybuses – the 1948 vehicles were Sunbeam F4 with Roe H60R bodies (8 feet wide). All ten entered service on 1 June 1948 but were later split between the 69 and 70. The dual door trolleybuses were Sunbeam MFsBs with Roe H54D bodies. No. 101 arrived in later 1952 whilst the further fifteen entered service from November 1954 to May 1955. they were intended for one-man operation using tokens and tickets – no cash and Mr Pulfrey, the GM, wanted the 63 to be the trial route but due to Union opposition they never ran in that form. No. 116 was fitted with an electronic counter on both stairs but it was not successful. No. 116 also had a Grant farebox fitted but never ran in service as such. They gained the nick name “Coronations” as no. 101 entered service in January 1953. The service 67 was the renumbered 63A which ran to Chanterlands Avenue North via Beverley Road and Cottingham Road at times during the war and for a short time thereafter. The Original 63A was intended for short workings to Haworth Arms. KHCT wanted a roundabout here so that alternate vehicles on Beverley Road could turn here but nothing came of this partly due to the start of the war. The 61/62 were the preserve of Leyland TB4s pre-war whilst the Crossleys ran the 63 – they were kept apart in Cottingham Road garage! Nos 1 to 4 were recalled from Pontypridd to permit the Anlaby Road tram route to be converted to trolleybus operation. Full details of the fleet list were posted on this site by Keith Easton some time ago and can be viewed at this link.
Kingston upon Hull Corporation Transport 1940 Leyland TB7CN East Lancs H28/26R
The Holderness Road trolleybus route conversion was about to get underway, but the outbreak of World War 2, intervened. Much of the overhead equipment was already on hand or on order at this point, added to which the tramway was getting in need of replacement. Hull Corporation therefore applied for Parliamentary permission to convert the route to trolleybus operation. Permission was forthcoming and the route was duly converted. To operate the service, which was given the route numbers 64 and 64A. The latter was a short working to East Park, used mainly to turn duplicates off the main route which terminated at the Ings Road junction. To operate the service twenty Leyland TB7CN chassis were purchased and these were bodied by East Lancashire Coachbuilders, a company new to Hull Corporation. Initially the seating was H28/26R, but was later up-seated to H31/29R. Bus number 64 (FRH 564) is shown operating along Holderness Road. The photograph may have been taken in Coronation year, 1953, if the flags and bunting on the buildings are anything to go by.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Keith Easton
Just curious about this TB7CN – TB for Trolleybus, 7 for the 7th model possible the numbers were linked to the Titan TD numbers, but what did the CN stand for?
Spencer
You have me on this one, all I can say is that this type was on a fleet list obtained from Geoff O’Connell, whose knowledge of KHCT was second to none. He was the Assistant GM at the time I knew him. I believe that the TB series numbers were linked to the Titan series, with regard to chassis improvements, but I’ve not seen any confirmation of this.
Keith Easton
The batch was just designated TB7 – I have copies of the specification and tender forms from Leyland. All twenty were built in 1939 being delivered in the late Summer of 1939. Nos 47/8/51/2 entered service on 31 August 1939. The TB designation was linked with the TD series – the tender for nos 1-26 actually quoted TD4 chassis – later changed to TB4 The Corporation already had permission to convert the route but, owing to the War, no Ministry of Transport inspection would be made it being up to the General Manager to authorise it. The Transport Committee being uncertain about the war situation at first declined to convert the route (originally scheduled for September 1939) and not until February 1940 did it agree. Geoff O’Connell was never the Assistant GM but was in the Traffic Office. For more details see my book “Kingston upon Hull Trolleybuses” published by Trolleybooks in 1996.
Malcolm Wells
16/02/20 – 06:14
Just for the record, I was told that Arthur (staff and later Chief) Handley was the only driver that could take North Bridge at speed and keep his trolleys on. Arthur, a gentle giant died from skin cancer in the early 1980’s just after being made up.
Barnsley & District 1913 Leyland S3.30.T Brush B27F
Here are two views of HE 12, a Leyland S3. 30.T from 1913. The body is a Brush B27F and she is in the livery of Barnsley & District (fleet number 5) – a precursor of the famous Yorkshire Traction. She’s seen on display at Longcross, near Chobham, on 1 April 2007. This was the London Bus Preservation Group event, normally held at Wisley airfield.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
26/04/13 – 07:43
Looks like one of Mike Sutcliffe’s immaculate restorations. Magnificent machine. Only 14 years before the TD1 appeared!
Ian Thompson
26/04/13 – 08:48
I was at that event Pete and Ian, and the restoration of this vehicle is superb beyond description. Incidentally the annual “Cobham” event is no longer held at the windswept and inhospitable Wisley Airfield. We went last weekend and it is now held at Brooklands Motor Museum, where the splendid new bus exhibition is now open.
Chris Youhill
27/04/13 – 07:55
Did you notice, Chris, the careful positioning of the stop for the horse-drawn “STAR OMNIBUS” and Concorde? Quite a dramatic contrast!
Pete Davies
27/04/13 – 09:22
I did indeed Pete notice just the fascinating contrast that you mention, and here “hot off the press” is the picture I took on Sunday having had the same feeling about the wonderful “ancient and modern” scene. The horse bus was well patronised most of the day and its rather strange to reflect that it has stayed in service far longer than the ill fated Concorde. The beautiful Belgian horses must have thought that it was their birthday as they were plied with mints and biscuits by delighted onlookers at every “terminus.”
Chris Youhill
27/04/13 – 09:50
Great pictures Pete, thanks for posting. Thanks also to whoever has put in the work to achieve this result!
Les Dickinson
27/04/13 – 13:14
At the rate fuel is rising in price, there could be a renaissance in horse buses! With such proud and beautiful horses, many would welcome it! A truly moving photo, Chris Y, and thx so much for posting it.
Chris Hebbron
28/04/13 – 08:19
There is, of course, the difference in opinion about a horse: 1) It’s a form of transport, it keeps the grass down, and feeds the roses. 2) It’s dangerous! The front bites, the middle sags, and the back kicks. I vote for option 1!
Pete Davies
28/04/13 – 09:28
…..but like any motor vehicle, Pete, option 2 only applies when there is misuse or abuse from the driver…..
David Oldfield
29/04/13 – 16:01
Not sure about that David. I seem to remember that in the olden days, one of the first things children were taught was “Never go close behind a horse” – and it wasn’t for what might drop on your shoes either!
Stephen Ford
30/04/13 – 05:36
Just for kicks?
David Oldfield
30/04/13 – 05:37
Don’t forget, if you abused the mechanical gear change pedal on a pre-selector Daimler you got similar results as…. …. the back leg of an abused horse!
Eric Bawden
30/04/13 – 13:17
(Copyright unknown)
It’s always been a source of wonderment that horsebuses and the like often appeared to run top-heavy, yet didn’t turn over. However, maybe they did! An extreme example is this 1910 photo of a staff outing of the wonderfully-named Portsea Island Gas, Light & Coke Co., which is likely to have some 20 folk aboard, with perhaps one inside! I’m assuming that climbing Portsdown Hill was a No-No!
Chris Hebbron
22/05/13 – 17:48
“The Muggleton Inn” (Wetherspoon) in Maidstone displays a photo of D 9717 1913 Leyland acquired second-hand by Maidstone & District from an unknown operator in 1914. But Wetherspoon’s have wrongly captioned the photo as a Tilling-Stevens!
John Humphrey
15/11/13 – 08:51
I have produced a CAD Line drawing of this bus and would like to forward a copy to the owners. Does anyone know how to contact them?
London & North Western Railway 1914 Leyland S4.36.T3 Leyland 32
CC 1087 is a Leyland S4.36.T3 and was new in 1914. Previous registrations are LP 8597 and XA 8086. The Leyland body has 32 seats in Charabanc formation, and she carries fleet number 59. Some viewers may be wondering, and I can confirm that she is indeed one of the famous Sutcliffe restorations. She is seen at Duxford on 24 September 2000.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
22/10/15 – 10:58
A wonderful photo shot and vehicle restoration; charabancs have a real fascination for me. One tends to think of railway companies showing an interest in the rapidly expanding bus industry in the late ‘twenties and ‘thirties, but LNWR were really ahead of the game in 1914! I have to wonder, though, whether it was used for shuttle services, or tours (of the Lake District, perhaps. Assuming a fleet of at least 59 passenger-carrying vehicles, both types might well have been operated.
Chris Hebbron
18/04/21 – 06:35
This coach is featured in the series: “Britain’s Greatest Machines with Chris Barrie – The 1910’s”
ex Guernseybus 1950 Leyland RTL Park Royal H29/23F
A couple of weeks back we had a question on the ‘Q&As’ page regarding front entrance ex London Transport Leyland RTLs. In response Bob Gell contributed the above shots which were taken at the North Weald Rally, 6 July 2008 and the following information of an ex Guernseybus converted RTL. As can be seen it is now preserved and back to carrying its original London Transport fleet number of RTL 1004 but not quite the original livery. Bob is led to believe that KYY 647 was converted by Guernseybus in their own workshops, for use as back up on inclement days to their open top RTs one of which was was RT 2494 registration KXW 123 with a Weymann body; it carried Guernsey registration number 54636. Guernseybus may have moved the entrance to the front, which I will come back to later, but as can be seen from the insert shot the staircase was only moved towards the centre of the bus and the stairs went rearwards. The subject of the original query, JXN 366, the former RTL 43, new to London Transport in 1949 joined the A1 Services fleet in February 1958, owned by T & E Docherty of Irvine. A photo of that vehicle can be seen here. It is thought to have been converted ‘in house’ in this case, the staircase was moved to the front as per normal front entrance vehicles. In 1971, it passed to Duff, a fellow member of A1 Services, who operated it until December 1973. It is now in preservation. Two questions arise out of this posting there is always at least one, firstly, KYY 647 carried two registrations 47312 and 995 during its time on Guernsey does anyone know why. Secondly whilst researching into these conversions other sites and documentation described the conversion of them to forward entrance not front entrance, Bob thinks that could spark a whole debate on its own, I think he could be right.
Photographs and Information contributed by Bob Gell
By common consent, Front entrance means just that – at the front, by the driver. Forward entrance means as far forward as possible – ie just behind the front axle (and engine) of a standard half-cab (or full-fronted) vehicle.
David Oldfield
I am guilty of using ‘front’ entrance for such vehicles but reading supports the use of ‘forward’ entrance. It seems that front entrance should be used for more modern vehicles, such as the Atlantean, Fleetline, etc. I think some confusion arises where fleet lists show anything not centre or rear entrance as a code ‘F’.
Scott Anderson
Not one, but two forward-entrance RTL’s from different sources. These were complete news to me. Thanks for the interesting post.
Chris Hebbron
The first picture gives the impression that the main object of the modification may have been one man operation – i.e. angled window on left hand side of cab, as was done to various half-cab single deckers by sundry operators.
Stephen Ford
I had quite a few enquirers regarding what the conversion of the rear entrance looked like, well, Bob obliged with the following shot.
Peter
Wow – art deco rounded glass at the rear – very expensive, I’d have thought. Better to see an off-centre rear view than full rear one, because the large rear pane of glass downstairs would be off-centre and the overall look quite asymmetric. Also the offside window ahead of the rounded one seems higher than its counterpart this side and the other side windows. In general, though, a neat job.
Chris Hebbron
Hi Chris I think the higher window you refer to is the new Emergency Door see the little shot inserted in the text.
Spencer
Ah Yes, Spencer, I missed the little photo: the door isn’t so clear on the upper photos. Thanks for clarifying.
Chris Hebbron
06/07/11 – 07:21
The team of inhouse coachbuilders at the then operating Guernseybus were tasked with relocating the rear entrance forward in order to allow the company to continue to operate its entire fleet with just a driver onboard – which was standard practice on the island. As for the registration number changes, between 47312 and 995, it’s mainly to do with a relatively lucrative market for cherished number plates in Guernsey, which has numeric only registrations. The number 995 may well have been sold (or indeed bought as an investment) by Guernseybus during the double deckers tenure in the island. 47312 would, as a registration number have very little value.
Neil (Guernsey)
31/03/13 – 07:52
You have a photo of my guernsey bus I restored this bus in 1984 the reg on it was JPA 81V as this was the year it came over from the island it was sold for £65 and then it cost £110 pounds on the fery. I got Swansea to give me a reg for it’s year 1958 it was then LSV 748. Hope you find this of use.
John Sergeant
14/09/14 – 07:21
RTL 1004 was the Lambeth Safety Bus in the 1970. The Abbots Langley Transport Circle bought it from a scape yard in Essex near Ongar. We had the bus for a number of years. We had to sell the bus on when we lost our parking space, and was unable to find another close to our base in Abbots Langley Herts’.
Stephen Norman
23/01/17 – 07:30
I use to own this bus wondered where it ended up and what is it doing now.
A. H. Kearsey 1949 Leyland 7RT RTL Park Royal H30/26R
The London Transport RTL class, known to LT as the 7RT, appeared from 1948, and consisted of a modified Titan PD2 chassis frame to accord with features of the AEC Regent RT, enabling the interchangeability of bodywork between the two types. Though fitted with the standard O600 engine, the gearbox was the AEC preselective epicyclic of the RT class, a transmission option that was not a standard offering by Leyland to operators elsewhere. A total of 1631 RTL buses was made, though, as with the 4826 of the RT class, that number never ran together in service. The majority of RTLs had Park Royal bodies, though 32 were originally fitted with Weymann and 500 with Metro Cammell bodywork. To these were added 500 of the mechanically similar eight feet wide RTW class, all of which had Metro Cammell bodies. Under the LT Aldenham overhaul system, bodywork became swapped about between chassis on passing through the works, and tracing individual bodies to chassis during their London Transport lifetimes is complicated. With characteristic profligacy, LT went ahead with developing its new wonder, the Routemaster, from 1954, despite the fact that large numbers of brand new RT and RTL buses were then languishing in store without ever having turned a wheel in revenue earning service. Four years later these stored buses eventually took to the road in 1958, the year before the first production Routemasters began appearing in volume, and they then began displacing the perfectly sound earlier RTLs of 1948/49 after a service lifetime of a mere nine to eleven years, during which full chassis/body overhauls had been undertaken. These withdrawn RTLs, in fine mechanical and body condition, soon found favour with operators at home and abroad (many went to Ceylon) where they rendered years of reliable service. The former RTL 133, KGK 797, delivered to London Transport in February 1949, was sold in January 1959, despite having received a full Aldenham overhaul in 1956, when its original body was replaced with another, also by Park Royal. It was then bought by A. H. Kearsey of Cheltenham, together with RTLs 138/149, KGK 802/813, and all remained with that operator when it was taken over by Marchant’s Coaches in January 1968. In the August 1970 picture above KGK 797, fleet number 62, in Kearsey’s sombre grey and blue livery, is seen (if I recollect correctly, though hesitantly after half a century) in Bishop’s Cleeve. Marchant’s continued to serve this area right up to October 2019 when all its bus routes were withdrawn following issues with Gloucestershire County Council over funding. More Kearsey pictures may be found here:- www.flickr.com/photos/tags/kearsey/
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
08/03/20 – 12:29
A minor correction to the details given here by Roger. The 500 Leyland 6RT, RTW class, had Leyland bodies and not Metro Cammell ones.
John Kaye
09/03/20 – 06:32
You’re right John. My error.
Roger Cox
09/03/20 – 06:33
Did some also have Cravens bodies?
Roger Ward
10/03/20 – 06:03
I think that there were some Saunders Roe bodied RT’s as well?
Andrew Charles
10/03/20 – 06:06
The Cravens bodies, as with the Saunders bodies, were on the RT class, A.E.C. Regent III. RT1402-1521 had Cravens bodies, whilst RT1152-1401 and RT4218-4267 had Saunders bodies.
John Kaye
11/03/20 – 06:25
The bus has generous destination panels, yet, Kearsey left the bus completely ignore every one of them! Marchant’s Coaches, Cheltenham, are still in fine fettle, with some 7 local school bus services, private hire and mystery tours, and regular day-out tours to places like Legoland. Nice to mention a well-established family concern not in trouble or to announce its demise.
Chris Hebbron
12/03/20 – 06:07
……though they recently pulled out of local service operation, citing too much bureaucracy amongst other issues. Until, I think, the 1980s, they had an amazing network of stage routes around the Cotswolds, worked from a base at Aldsworth, the timings of which they seemed to regard as a state secrets – the recently dropped work around Cheltenham had come from other sources, notably replacing the estimable Castleways when that concern closed.
Phil Drake
15/03/20 – 06:47
Those painted-over destination boxes bothered me as well. I grew up in a place and an era when the buses I saw displayed half a dozen via points on the front, back and nearside, and showed the destination front and back, and even now TfL buses have some route information on the front. So I’m baffled – how did Kearsey’s passengers know where the RTL was going? Was it only ever on one route, which was known to everybody who was likely to use it, or did the conductor shout from the platform “We’re only going to the Town Hall today, love, but we can drop you off at the shops if you like? No sir, we don’t go to the station, not on a Wednesday!”?
Don Davis
Like it, Don; good point well made. Mind you, there were good displays, but confusing ones, too. Portsmouth Corporation, in its middle years, had double-lettered routes. ‘A’ one way and ‘B’ coming back. there was never mention anywhere of this and folk would wait for an ‘A’ return journey and ignore the ‘B,s going by! And this at a seaside resort with lots of holidaymakers. I grew up with suffix letters on route numbers in London, although they never went very high,, but Portsmouth had one route, 143, which went from ‘A’ to ‘F’. ‘A’ was the whole route, then the higher the suffix the shorter the route. Much higher than ‘F’ and the route travelled would have been about a hundred yards! Incidentally, Cheltenham, which historically only had numbered routes, now has some with letters. I’m surprised that Gloucestershire County Council, which controls bus route numbers, hasn’t forced a change.
Chris Hebbron
16/03/20 – 06:50
The mention by Phil Drake of Castleways of Winchcombe reminded me of this photo taken in November 1973 of their Leopard PSU3B/4 Plaxton Panorama C49F, apparently named Countess, new in November 1972 looking absolutely stunning in their dark blue and silver grey livery. Taken in Cheltenhams somewhat bleak bus station amongst the autumn leaves.
David Lennard
17/03/20 – 07:07
My delight with Castleways was seeing their Temsa Safari coach, which looked absolutely gorgeous in the black with gold band livery. (Photo by R Sharman). On one occasion, I took their coach on their route to Stratford-upon-Avon. Cheltenham Bus Station, although the late 1940s reinforced concrete shelters have now been replaced by light metal glazed ones, is as bleak, draughty and lacking any comforts as it ever was. Not even a toilet. Perhaps the bus is too uncomfortably reminding them of the Great Unwashed!
Chris Hebbron
18/03/20 – 07:02
They used single deckers on their routes, and the double deckers on schools/factories and as duplicates on stage services. They were well kept up until Marchants took over. They lost the ladies college work and other work to Castleways and started to go down hill. Marchants was always to be avoided if possible. Its only in the past 20/30 years that Marchants have improved.
A number of years ago Cheltenham and Gloucester used the same numbers, so country routes were adjusted to 3 numbers, and some renumbered, Cheltenham went to letters, Red and White Forest routes renumbered.
Mike
19/03/20 – 06:39
Thx, Mike for that info.
Chris Hebbron
19/03/20 – 06:41
Chris Hebbron mentions Portsmouth’s confusing route numbers. Another seaside resort determined to baffle holidaymakers was Southport. Most routes were cross-town, and the route number went with the destination, so if you went from the town centre to Woodvale on an 11, you would return on a 10 bound for Preston New Road. Then when there was a timetable change, the routes would swap partners, and the 11 to Woodvale might return as a 2 to Marshfield!
Peter Williamson
19/03/20 – 06:52
Middlesbrough Corporation Transport used all the letters A – Z. That all changed when TRTB, MCT and Stockton were merged into TMT. Then they moved to numbers, as TRTB and Stockton used numbers. The “O” Bus or “0” ZERO was a joint Stockton/Middlesbrough Bus. 46 and 47 routes later. United then had to add a “2” so the 63 became the 263 to avoid confusion. Then it became Cleveland Transit, a disaster. Then Thatcher scrapped the buses!
Mr Anon
20/03/20 – 06:22
Castleways livery may have looked Black but was Trafalgar Blue.
Tim Presley
21/03/20 – 06:45
As my wife will testify, with a tut and a sigh, Tim, (“Do you think this colour suits me?”) I’m colour blind!
Chris Hebbron
21/03/20 – 06:47
Morecambe managed without route numbers until the sixties as did Ledgard until the very end of the company.
Chris Hough
21/03/20 – 06:50
Checked to see if my comment came and then thought no that’s not right it’s Wellington Blue.
Doncaster Corporation 1969 Leyland Royal Tiger Cub Roe B45D
A very rare Leyland, for these shores at any rate, was the Royal Tiger Cub. Designed as an export chassis it sold in respectable numbers from Finland to New Zealand, even (when supplied as a kit of running gear) incorporated in DAB (Danish Automobile Building) integrals. The only chassis sold on the home market were for Doncaster Corporation who took twenty 33ft Roe bodied examples in two batches of ten in 1965 (type RTC1/1) and 1968 (type RTC1/2). Although all were 33ft two door examples the body style differed between the two batches, the Roe bodywork on the second batch were similar to that supplied to Leeds and Huddersfield on their AEC Swifts. The photo shows preserved number 55 which is an RTC1/2 of the second batch.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Andrew Charles
The Royal Tiger Cub was very much an anomaly. The Leopard – which became a classic – first arrived as a special for Sheffield (Corporation) Transport Department. Bodied as Weymann Fanfare coaches in summer 1959, the first six predated the Scottish Show model by several months and were recorded in Leyland books as PSUC1 (Tiger Cub) specials. By the time of the official launch in Glasgow later in the year, the Leopard L2/Plaxton of Milburn Motors introduced a new name and series. The Leopard was, therefore, a Tiger Cub but with 0.600 engine and Titan gearbox. The only noticeable difference between the Royal Tiger Cub and Leopard was the 33′ length. Another case of micro managing slight differences in specification. The first Doncaster RTC1 had “Real” Roe bodies – as seen just behind No 55 in the above shot. As stated, 55 had Roe bodywork similar to Leeds, Huddersfield (and Sheffield) Swifts – on Park Royal frames.
David Oldfield
Just to offer photographic assistance to the comment made by one of your contributors about the body style of the first batch of Royal Tiger Cubs bought by DCT. See below for a better shot of the vehicle he refers to (which was partially hidden behind the subject of the original photo). In fact the first batch of RTC were not of this style Roe body but more like the batch prior to this which were on AEC Reliance chassis. I don’t know whether those bodies had any Park Royal input but there were similarities in design features with Yorkshire Traction’s Park Royal Tiger Cubs, trim etc was different but there were similarities in appearance. A significant difference was the absence of the traditional Roe ‘Trade rail’ below the windows although comparison with the Roe bodied ex Felix Reliance parked next to 33 shows that the trade rail was by no means a standard feature.
