Tag: Leyland

Yorkshire Woollen District – Leyland Titan – UTF 930 – 773


Copyright Bob Gell

Yorkshire Woollen District
1954
Leyland Titan PD2/20
MCW H34/29R

The above shot was sent to me by Bob Gell with the following comment:

There is correspondence under the Yorkshire Woollen District Tiger PS1 posting about this vehicle – I took the attached photo in July 1969 at Dewsbury Bus Station.

I’m intrigued by the total lack of opening windows on each side upstairs, with ventilation only from the two vents in the front windows – presumably part of its ‘spec’ as a demonstrator. I wonder if it was built around the same time as the Edinburgh lightweights, the ‘Monstrous mass of shivering tin’, as they were known in Edinburgh?

The vehicle was actually an ex Leyland Motors demonstrator and I think it was built to Edinburgh specification it does look very similar. I am not sure what year the vehicle entered service with Yorkshire Woollen District but my thanks to John Blackburn who informed me that it was renumbered 54 in 1967 and withdrawn in 1970 going to Norths of Sherburn in Elmet in 1971 and presumably scrapped. If you wish to read the comments on the Yorkshire Woollen District Tiger PS1 posting click here.

Photograph contributed by Bob Gell

06/02/11 – 09:12

This former Leyland demonstrator did indeed have an MCW body to Edinburgh specification hence the strip bell (see Tiger comments) It also had an Edinburgh blind layout. I only ever saw it once whizzing up Whitehall Road Leeds at a great rate of knots with its exhaust booming off the surrounding buildings

Chris Hough

06/02/11 – 09:12

With regards to Y.W.D. 773 [later 54] this was a standard Edinburgh Corporation PD2 that was taken from a batch that were being built for them. An Edinburgh Baille once described them as being monstrous pieces of shivering tin. Anyway I always liked it. The crews liked it too because of the Edinburgh style destination box it could show a lazy blind of the two ends of a route.

Philip Carlton

07/02/11 – 20:11

Edinburgh’s Titans may well have been monstrous masses of shivering tin but most of them gave up to 20 years service. Their grey and red interiors were still being used until the advent of low floor deckers in Edinburgh I well remember my first visit to Edinburgh in 1971 when every bus seemed to be one of the Titans. The other gems such as the Alexander bodied Guys just paled into insignificance alongside the Titans

Chris Hough

07/02/11 – 20:37

I had never noticed its lack of upper deck ventilation windows until now. Looking at views of its Edinburgh contemporaries I note that they all had two upper and two lower ventilators. Was the lack of upper deck ventilators on the demonstrator a one-off or was it a YWD alteration?

Paul Haywood

10/02/11 – 05:48

I worked for YWD at the time UTF 930 or 773 as it was known and loved was in service, this was the BEST vehicle on the fleet. As I said in another reply this vehicle was the most reliable vehicle we ever had!. It used to go out on duty and was forgotten until some one remembered it may need cleaning, a liner check, or greasing/oilchange The vehicle was fitted with Vacuum brakes and Leylands RP (Ratchet Paul) brake adjusters which worked perfectly (If maintained correctly) and only came in when it required a reline. Unlike modern day practice of relining an axle set we only relined one corner at a time, with NO problems!! The driver would fight over it!! And it made the most wonderful noise when accelerating (almost like a Ferrari!!!). I just wish someone had had the money to preserve it but alas it went to the big bus haven in Sherburn in Elmet, Norths Scrap Yard.(unless some one can tell me different!!)

Chris Bligh

10/02/11 – 09:07

Chris Hough’s comment on the Edinburgh “shivering masses of tin” took me back many years to when a temporary shortage of buses in Sheffield resulted in a batch of those splendid vehicles being sent south on loan. Visiting the Steel city with a friend one evening we took a random ride on one for the experience and were most impressed by its incredibly good condition. I don’t know the Sheffield routes at all really, but would I be right in thinking that it was on service 75 or 76 to Low Edges ?? The bus was full to capacity and on one very steep street in particular we were treated to one of the most masterly pieces of driving – starting off in first gear and going to full revs the driver changed beautifully into second without a click or a jerk of any kind – and the conductress was an immaculate efficient Caribbean lady with a cultured “BBC” accent and the politest of manners – a lovely journey to recall.

Chris Youhill

10/02/11 – 10:14

I wasn’t living in Sheffield during the “shortage” but still have family there and visit regularly. If it were a 76 Lowdedges then the steep hill would have been Woodseats Road. Had it been a 75 Bradway, it could also have been Meadowhead.
I was brought up in the Lowedges area of Greenhill which was originally serviced by the 38 (later by 42/53), the 75/75 originally serviced by the 59. The stop at the bottom of Meadowhead was a classic test of hill starting with a full bus with a crippling gradient. The 38 was basically an AEC route with Leyland input. The AECs posed no problems by the PD3s sorted the men from the boys with grinds, grauches and lurches! This stop was notorious and was subsequently moved back to a flat approach to Meadowhead, nearer Graves Park’s Woodseats entrance, to avoid the hill start.

David Oldfield

11/02/11 – 06:59

Thank you David for the information on those forbidding Sheffield hills – whichever was the one that I remember so well it was a most creditable performance by the driver – he must without doubt have been one of those chaps with a genuine interest in the job and a real pride in his work.

Chris Youhill

16/04/11 – 05:00

The reason they lasted so long in Edinburgh was the fact that the bodies were rebuilt every 6 years. The quoted phrase was – “They are ungainly, inelegant, monstrous masses of shivering tin. They are modern to the extent of becoming able to produce a perfect synchronization of rock `n` roll”. As far as Edinburgh went the bodies were a disaster,with front and back domes breaking free and the odd staircase detaching itself from the top deck among the other numerous problems such as cracking the nearside chassis rail, which resulted in expensive and time consuming body off repairs. The Edinburgh cobbles did these bodies no favours.

Brian Melrose

02/01/14 – 17:24

Most deckers of PD2s and 3s suffered this complaint of broken chassis rails which when you think about it all the swaying with a full top load of passengers over 10 years or more did these buses no favours l hope this may answer your questions on this matter. I am a bus enthusiast and have been for the last 50 years or so.

JohnE

03/01/14 – 07:55

Sheffield had their own almost identical batch of 20 Weymann/ PD2/30 but with more ventilation. The bodies were a nadir – and most unworthy of the name Weymann. Later deliveries were to a higher standard – more like earlier Weymanns. Going back to Chris Y’s earlier comments; in retrospect, my memories of STD drivers in the PD2/PD3 era are that they were well trained and generally drove very well.

David Oldfield

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

24/09/14 – 08:38

I congratulate all those who knows which bus is made by who, all I was interested in was getting from A to B; never trusted any of the service buses, there was never any guarantees I would finish with the same bus I started with!
From Frost Hill, I did Batley/Birks, Dewsbury/Cleckheaton, Halifax/Leeds, Dewsbury/Bradford, but that was a story of its own, Huddersfield/Leeds, Elland/Leeds including Rastrick, but by gum, I don’t know or remember anything about bus types, models or the likes, I just drove them, so God bless those who remember so much. To me, they were Leyland with a cab, Leyland Atlantean, Leyland air/auto, Guy bronze box and crash box, and that includes double and single deckers; but, does anyone remember the new coach we got at Frost Hill in 1968 that was all electric push button geared, now that was a coach worth taking to the footy matches, but I made sure I was last there and first out, especially when Leeds played at home!

Donald Campbell

25/09/14 – 16:11

What was a Guy Bronze box?
Was it anything to signify the H pattern being different for gear changes?

John Blackburn

26/09/14 – 05:41

The original Guy Arab of 1933 had a four speed sliding mesh (crash) gearbox with “right to left” upward gear selection positions, and this box was used in the wartime Arab utilities. Towards the end of 1945, Arabs were delivered with a new constant mesh gearbox which had conventional gear selector positions. I would think that Donald was unlikely to have experienced the old Guy crash gearbox.

Roger Cox

27/09/14 – 07:09

Roger.I had the pleasure of driving former Burton Corporation Guy Arab 111/Massey no 18 when first preserved and this also had the right to left gearbox. YWD also re-bodied many wartime Arabs so they could still have this gearbox.

Geoff S

Sheffield Corporation – Leyland Titan PD2 – PWA 258 – 158

   Copyright Ian Wild

Sheffield Corporation
1953
Leyland PD2/12
Weymann H32/26R

Sheffield operated a number of occasional services to small villages and hamlets to the north west of the City. Ewden Valley Village lay about a mile off the main Sheffield to Stocksbridge route 57 via a Sheffield Corporation Waterworks private road and was primarily home to workers at the adjacent reservoir. Service 164 was sparse but included this Saturday morning journey taken in February 1963 with a few villagers complete with shopping leaving Weymann bodied Leyland PD2/12 at the terminus in the snow. The bus which was allocated to Herries Road Garage was one of the 1953 B fleet batch of 26 such buses originally numbered 142-167 but renumbered later in 1963 with the addition of 2000 to their fleet numbers.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

24/02/11 – 08:10

Coincidence. Was just looking at 687 on the South Yorkshire site before I came here to find 158.
Ewden Valley is part of the beautiful Sheffield “Lake District” of reservoirs (and forestry) to the north of the city. Originally part of the West Riding, the area came into the city with the 1974 Local Government reorganisation.
Note the treacherous conditions with “raw” snow. At least the driver had a manual gearbox to help him cope. I drove part time for Reading Mainline in the ’90s and remember a happy Saturday morning in Reading when none of the side roads had been gritted. [I had never been skating before this…..]

David Oldfield

24/02/11 – 09:19

I worked in Sheffield during that winter. I can’t remember the buses ever stopping, but perhaps they did. I don’t think I missed a day’s work. This bus has- it seems- reversed into its terminus gritless. Presumably with a gentle bit of clutch work it will set off on that lock? Are today’s buses not gritless but gutless- these people wouldn’t have seen one for weeks? Despite the weight at the rear, does the transmission stop them getting a grip or are they just too long to control and the rear weight just makes them jack-knife?

Joe

24/02/11 – 10:11

Joe, I lived through some pretty harsh Sheffield winters in my childhood – notably 1962. Once the ploughs and gritters had been out, the buses emerged. The STD buses very rarely failed the burghers of Sheffield.
With a clutch there is far more control than any sort of automatic gives. This is one reason that all STD buses from 1951 to 1959 were manual. (The advent of “no-choice” on Atlanteans and Fleetlines put an end to this – and possibly the fact that the Atlantean killed off the last trams and was easier to convert tram drivers.)

David Oldfield

24/02/11 – 10:13

Joe – Many of us older drivers know that, in snow, you need grip, not power. The answer is to pull away and accelerate in a higher gear than usual, easy with a manual gearbox.
Also, modern buses have smaller wheels, I’m sure, so a smaller ‘footprint’ in the snow.
There may be other considerations, too, of which I can’t think offhand.

Chris Hebbron

24/02/11 – 21:33

What a handsome body was this penultimate Weymann style, before the advent of the “Orion”. I believe that this style was heavier than the Orion, and that it continued after the 1954 Orion body and was known as “Aurora”, availability continuing until the late 50s. In fact, Bournemouth`s MF2B trolleys owe much to this design. Not sure about my facts here, if anyone can clarify, but, as an enthusiast, I remember their gradual demise with some regret. They were, in my view, the most handsome of all bus bodies, and were a real “classic”, their ancestry being traceable back to the first Weymann metal bodies of 1933. A truly evocative photograph!

John Whitaker

24/02/11 – 21:58

In reply to Joe, I am pretty sure that the bus as pictured had driven in to that position, it would reverse to the right of the photo before returning to the main A616 and the City down the private road which is to the left of the picture.
The nearest bus route to my home was on a pretty steep hill and I can remember in the snow drivers would go as slow as possible at the bus stop whilst the passengers jumped on the rear platform. Rarely did the buses miss in those days. My first two winters at work were 1962 and 1963. The first I was at Rotherham, the second on the edge of Sheffield City Centre, as well as two nights a week at night school. I cannot remember missing either work or night school during those winters due to the weather. I remember the single skin upper saloon domes with ice on the inside – no saloon heaters in those days!

Ian Wild

25/02/11 – 08:38

Rochdale received the Aurora on Regent Vs until 1959 (including the famous Gardners in about 1956) and Bournemouth was receiving the Sunbeams until 1962. The Bournemouths were the same design – except they had five short bays – just as the Rotherham CVG6s, contemporary to 158, had five short bays (and were also 7’6″ wide).
The Orion is much maligned – often unfairly – but there is no doubt that this is a far better and more attractive design. Only the roof of the domes was single skinned on the Aurora. Around the front (and front side) windows was double skinned, as was the area around the rear emergency exit. All of this area was single skinned on the Orion.
As I’ve said before, the first upper deck heating on STD buses was the 1325-1349 Regent V/Roes of 1960.

David Oldfield

25/02/11 – 09:37

I can’t quite work it out on the photo, and it might be a trick of the eye with dirt/snow along the bottom, but does this body have the Weymann flair? If so, it would be quite late to have this feature.

Chris Hebbron

25/02/11 – 11:18

Yes, 158 had the Weymann flaired skirt. Also, PD2’s 668 to 687 of 1953 and 688-723 of 1954 had the flair. Straight ‘skirts’ were fitted to this body style for the Regent 3’s of 1954, nos. 178-199, 724-735 and 1154-55. Further deliveries thereafter were Orions.

John Darwent

28/02/11 – 06:59

This body design came out in 1952 or 1953. I have been aware for some time that Croft of Glasgow built similar-looking bodies, and have always assumed that they were Weymann-based – until I discovered that Croft were actually building them several years before Weymann! The one at this link must have looked incredibly modern in 1949.

Peter Williamson

02/03/11

Thanks for the Albion-Croft link, Peter W. The Croft body’s modern look is emphasized by the wonderfully thirties-looking Albion chassis–especially the radiator!

Ian Thompson

06/03/11 – 08:18

The Rochdale 1959 Regent V’s were probably the final incarnation of the Aurora design and what magnificent vehicles they were. When originally delivered in Rochdale’s majestic blue and cream streamlined livery they looked superb. The last four 319-322(TDK 319-322) had platform doors, believed to have been added to the spec so as not to be outdone by Bury Corporation whose Orion bodied PD3’s had this feature and operated on the joint routes 19 and 21T between the two towns. Compared to the Bury vehicles which I always found noisy and rough, the Rochdale Regent V’s with their semi-automatic gearboxes, were much more refined.
One of these vehicles was preserved at Sheffield Bus Museum. Is it still there? One of the 1956 Gardners is in the collection at Boyle Street, Manchester.

Philip Halstead

06/03/11 – 09:09

Yes, it’s still at Rotherham. [The museum moved!]

David Oldfield

07/03/11 – 09:27

I remember the Rochdale Regent Vs (and the preceding Daimlers with basically similar bodies) very well as I used to use the 17 service in Manchester regularly. What impressed me even more than the features Philip mentions was the interiors. They were fairly basic really, with leatherette seats and painted metal window cappings, but who would have thought that two shades of blue, together with a strangely translucent white on the ceiling, could be so restful? With those colours, the smoothness of the drive train and the soporific crooning of the transmission, a 12-minute journey on one of those was almost enough to induce an altered state of consciousness!

Peter Williamson

12/03/11 – 08:00

I agree with Peter, the Rochdale interiors were plain but very clean and fresh feeling. As a child I was a bit susceptible to travel sickness and somehow the Rochdale interiors seemed to calm my problem. It is surprising how interior features stick in ones mind from those childhood days. Manchester’s ‘standard’ bodies were very dark and oppressive inside with dark moquette seats and dark varnished woodwork. In the days of almost universal adult smoking the moquette seating seemed to soak up the stale tobacco fumes even in the lower saloon. We used to travel into Manchester from Rochdale on the 24/90 service, jointly worked by Manchester, Oldham and Rochdale corporations and I would always hope our bus would be a Rochdale vehicle.
The Oldham buses had some distinctive internal features I well remember. Hanging leather straps in the lower saloon with handles similar to horse-riding stirrups. A row of domestic style Bakelite light switches with porcelain fuse holders on the front lower saloon bulkhead above the driver’s cab window. The words ‘Oldham Corporation’ were emblazoned across the front bulkhead in gold lettering – civic pride still existed in those days! And finally the ‘Honesty Box’ on the rear platform. Did anybody ever put anything into it, I wonder? I also remember the Oldham Roe bodies were a bit short on bell pushes in the upper saloon and conductors would give the starting signal from the front with a couple of heavy stamps of the foot on the floor above the cab!
We seem to concentrate our interest in the exteriors of buses but not much is written or photographed about the insides.

Philip Halstead

13/03/11 – 08:05

Philip, I fully agree regarding bus interiors. That was the environment in which you travelled, and it was often very distinctive – location and style of bell pushes (or cords or strips), pattern of light fittings (before the arrival of standard fluorescent strip lights), seats and upholstery – even smells. Perhaps there are a few more interior shots out there to add another dimension?

Stephen Ford

04/06/18 – 07:03

This is a few years after Stephen’s comment which I’ve only just read, but with regard to ‘smells’, I used to love getting a green West Riding tin-front Guy from Sheffield to Ecclesfield back in the 1950’s. Unlike the STD buses, they were cleaned with a pleasant, perfumed disinfectant which I can still ‘smell’ to this day.
At that time, I think both West Riding and Yorkshire Traction buses carried posters on the windows stating ‘Cut the fuel tax. We don’t like it, you don’t like it, it must GO!’. Anyone else remember that ?

Mike C

PMT – Leyland Titan PD2/20 – 203 BEH – L679


Copyright Ian Wild

Potteries Motor Traction
1957
Leyland Titan PD2/20
Willowbrook L27/28R

This bus was new to Baxters of Hanley as their fleet number 11 in March 1957 and was acquired by PMT when they bought out the Baxter business in December 1958. It was somewhat different from the contemporary PMT purchased Leylands having a concealed radiator and rear entrance and by 1968 was one of only three double deckers in the fleet without platform doors. A similar but slightly older bus from the Baxter fleet became PMT L510 which was rebuilt with a MCW style top deck after an altercation with the notorious Glebe Street railway bridge adjacent to Stoke Station. L679 was allocated to Stoke Garage and is seen in Woodhouse Street outside its home depot on 10th October 1970. By this time it was normally only used for a morning and afternoon peak hour working on the Longton to Newcastle Estates group of services (numbers 98-103) where it was odd man out amongst the Atlanteans and Fleetlines. By the date of this photo was used in between peaks for driver training – note the slot for an L plate above the radiator grille. It became a permanent driver training vehicle in December 1972 and was withdrawn for disposal in 1976.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

A full list of Titan codes can be seen here.

06/04/11 – 05:00

Would I be correct in thinking that these ex Baxters vehicles were the only PD2’s ever bodied by Willowbrook in this style? By 1957, Willowbrook had changed their design for deckers to the more rounded style, as on the Barton PS1 rebuilds and several deliveries to that design actually pre-date the vehicle shown. I believe the very last one to this ‘old’ design was a Daimler CVG6 supplied to Blue Bus Services in 1960.

Chris Barker

08/04/11 – 05:00

Yes I did a bit of driver training in this vehicle but I must admit I liked my normal training bus better which was LEH 745 L337 NCME body.

Michael Crofts

28/04/11 – 06:36

I passed my PSV test in 1968 on L337, I preferred my training turns on L466 (now preserved) as it had a sliding cab door which I was able to leave open. I remember struggling with hill starts on Penkhull New Road!!
The Chief Instructor / Examiner was George Clews but I don’t remember the names of the other two Instructors. Rather unusually the Driving School reported to the Chief Engineer rather than the Traffic Manager.

Ian Wild

06/05/11 – 06:46

Hi Ian, Yes my instructor was George Clews but my examiner was from the D.O.T he took me into a cul-de-sac by mistake and I had a devil of a job doing a shunt to turn around with 337. Yes those were the days on Penkhull bank….

Michael Crofts

Sheffield Corporation – Leyland Titan PD2/20 – YWB 294 – 1294


Copyright Ian Wild

Sheffield Corporation
1957
Leyland PD2/20
ECW H31/28R

Sheffield Joint Omnibus Committee took delivery of eight Leyland PD2/20 in 1957 of which five had Eastern Coachworks bodies and the remaining three were bodied by Roe.
The purchase of the three B fleet and two C fleet ECW bodied buses was made possible by the connection with the BTC through the part ownership of the Joint Committee fleets by British Railways.
These bodies were very similar to the those built around the same time on the final Bristol KSW chassis for Brighton Hove and District. They were certainly unique and the first bodies built on non Bristol chassis by ECW for a number of years.
1294 is seen on 31st March 1973 at the remote terminus at Wyming Brook which was an occasional extension of service 51 which normally terminated at Lodge Moor Hospital. The bus is about to reverse into the side road past the conductor who is nonchalantly leaning on what appears to be a rubbish bin watching me take the photograph. By this date the Joint Omnibus Committee was in the past and the bus is displaying Sheffield Transport fleet names but without the City Coat of Arms.
The front fleet number fits very snugly into the blank space originally provided for the Midland Red logo whilst the square front number plate seems to me to give the bus a ‘rabbits teeth’ appearance. I seem to recall that sister buses 1292 and 1293 had more conventional rectangular front number plates.
The bus was withdrawn later in 1973 thus having completed a creditable sixteen years in service.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

A full list of Titan codes can be seen here.

18/05/11 – 06:58

A very smart-looking vehicle in the round. Even when told that it has an ECW body, the BMMO front somehow fools you into not realising it!
The only other non-Bristols I can readily think of as having ECW bodies, were the private-hire AEC Regal IV’s delivered to London Transport in 1951. Their bodies were unique, looking like nothing ECW had produced either before or after! As a nationalised concern, LTE was always subject to its chassis being ECW-bodied, but ECW was never able to cope with the volume demanded of it – with just 15, the RFW’s were an exception.

Chris Hebbron

18/05/11 – 10:20

Yes, Chris – it seems strange to see a non-Bristol with an ECW body, but there were a surprising number of exceptions. LTE not only had the RFWs, but also the Guy Specials (GS). Apart from rebuilds, other examples were the Southdown and East Yorkshire PS1s, the Eastern National and Bristol Omnibus PD1As, the Lowestoft Regent IIs, the Red & White Albions, and the Middlesbrough PD1s and Guys. Yet another example of how fascinating the bus scene was in those days, and I’m sure others can add to the list.

Paul Haywood

18/05/11 – 10:22

This bus like its brethren ended up with Yorkshire Woollen when they had a severe vehicle shortage in the early seventies It joined the ex West Yorks Bristols and South Wales Bridgemasters already shown on this site. Some early Atlanteans also went north to Dewsbury from Sheffield YWD used the top destination box on both ex SWT and Sheffield vehicles to display a fleet name The ex York Bristols had only single aperture boxes and just showed a destination.

Chris Hough

18/05/11 – 10:46

As I keep telling people here in Surrey, half of Sheffield is countryside, a third even in the Peak District. This area was always in Sheffield – certainly post WW 2 and close to where some of my family lived – typical B Fleet country. I always liked the Bristol and Lincolnshire highbridge KSWs, so I had a soft spot for these handsome ECW PD2s. [The C Fleet pair had platform doors – apparently retrofitted at Queens Road.] Sheffield also had B and C Fleet ECW Leopard coaches.
If we’re talking pre 1965 and the Leyland induced freedom, there were at least two other example of non Bristol ECW bodies.
They were:
(i) the 1947(?) AEC Regent II (with bodies like the 7’6″ Bristol K highbridge bodies – again see Lincolnshire) delivered to ECWs local authority at Lowestoft, resplendent in very un Tilling maroon and (ii) AEC Regal III for Lough Swilly in Northern Ireland with Bristol L style bodies.

David Oldfield

18/05/11 – 14:12

Are you sure this one went to YWD? They were the C Fleet buses in 1970, after the formation of NBC. STD lost the C Fleet routes and fleet but retained the B fleet buses and most of the routes.

David Oldfield

18/05/11 – 21:55

Sorry for the wrong information about these going to YWD it was the C fleet examples which went north

Chris Hough

18/05/11 – 21:57

As far as I am aware the B and C fleet vehicles never carried the Corporation crest.
1294 and 1296 were still in service in Sheffield in the summer of 1973.

Stephen Bloomfield

18/05/11 – 21:59

If I might hazard a guess (which may be wrong!) the previous non-Bristol deckers bodied by ECW prior to these were a batch of seven for Midland General in 1955. Six were re-bodies on Guy Arab II’s and the seventh was an AEC Regent III whose original Weymann body had been badly damaged in an accident. All were highbridge. I believe the AEC was the only Regent III ever to be bodied by ECW.
As an aside, it’s just possible that the MGO Guys and the Sheffield PD2’s could have met in Chesterfield, albeit working to different termini.

Chris Barker

19/05/11 – 06:38

The MGO Guys and ECW bodied PD2’s could have met at the same terminal in Chesterfield, Beetwell Street. Could have operated on service 99 and possibly one other.
Between 1951 and 1953 Western S.M.T rebodied Guy Arab II’s, Daimler CWA6’s, Albion Venturers and some Leyland PD1’S.

Stephen Bloomfield

19/05/11 – 09:38

C fleet 1153 was sent to Dewsbury in 1970 and lasted until 1972

Chris Hough

20/05/11 – 06:56

Sheffield Joint Omnibus Committee service 99 was a single deck route due to very low bridges at Barrow Hill.

Ken Wragg

22/05/11 – 08:37

With respect to the two ‘C’ fleet ECW PD2’s that were transferred to Yorkshire Woollen in 1970, an interesting point is that although they were transferred to YWD ‘on paper’ as of January 1st, 1970, due to a shortage of buses in Sheffield at the time, 3152/3 (YWB 152/3) were operated by STD from Greenland Road garage ‘on hire’ from the National Bus Company until the 1st of May that year, when they were finally sent up the road to Dewsbury!
Presumably the legal lettering on these buses would have been changed to reflect their new owner as of the beginning of the year. That being the case, I wonder then if they operated for those four months with ‘On Hire to STD’ posters displayed in the front nearside window? If so, this would have looked quite odd, considering they were in full Sheffield livery at the time!

Dave Careless

31/05/16 – 06:20

ECW bodies built until around 1950 were ordered prior to Transport Act 1947 provisions coming in, they prevented ECW building for anyone other than 100% state-owned operators, like (in Sheffield’s case) the British Railway’s board.
Not only did that stop (Bristol and) ECW supplying previously loyal customers on the home market but it also killed a promising export trade, in ECW’s case including AEC Regals for the Londonderry & Lough Swilly Railway and Leyland Tigers for Isle of Man Road Transport.
One ECW body for London Transport mentioned was the fourth prototype Routemaster.
In 1965 Leyland Motor Corporation exchanged a 30% holding in Park Royal Vehicles and Charles H. Roe for a 25% interest in Bristol Commercial Vehicles and Eastern Coach Works, by the end of 1966 Bristol and ECW products were back on open sale.

Stephen Allcroft

Leeds City Transport – Leyland Titan PD2/1 – NNW 380 – 380

Leeds City Transport - Leyland Titan PD2/1 - NNW 380 - 380

Leeds City Transport
1950
Leyland Titan PD2/1
Leyland H30/26R

This Leeds City Transport bus is at the Rivelin Dams, Norfolk Arms terminus of Sheffield service 54 whilst on a tour of Sheffield routes on 19th June 1966 organised by The Leeds and District Transport News (still in production today as Metro Transport News). Sheffield 545 which appeared on this site some months ago accompanied the Leeds bus on the tour. The notes provided with the tour suggest that 380 was one of the last of its batch in service.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

24/07/11 – 10:53

A vehicle very dear to me – NNW 380 was to become number 13 in the Learner Fleet and was used to weigh up job applicants as it had, of course, a “live” gearbox and clutch. In October 1969 I applied for a job as a “direct driver” and reported to the Swinegate Headquarters at 5.00pm one weekday rush hour. The strict but kindly chap in charge of the Driving School, Senior Inspector Albert Bradley, directed me to 380 in the yard, settled himself in the front passenger seat behind the “missing” window, and off we went into the thick of it. The bus behaved impeccably, like a dream, as we went to Beeston, reversing into an awkward side street on the notoriously steep Beeston Hill (air brakes on the trams) and performing a hill start as well. Then into the long flat Old Lane – by now I was very comfortable indeed and enjoying the trip – where Mr. Bradley said “That’s OK, just go straight down Dewsbury Road back to the yard.” I said that I was really enjoying the vehicle and so he said “Oh, well then, go up the Ring Road and through Middleton and Belle Isle and Hunslet.” That shows what a genuine and respected gentleman he was, in allowing me to spend an extra few of the Department’s shillings in fuel on a pleasure jaunt !! I suppose in a way I was cheating a little, as I had quite a lot of experience in driving PD2s elsewhere, but I got the job and that involved being a “driver/conductor” for six months – although a chronic shortage of willing drivers and the need to accelerate the One Man Operated conversion programme meant that I did slightly less before qualifying for those.

Chris Youhill

24/07/11 – 17:48

The only Leyland bodies bought by Leeds 340-399 entered service in 1949-1950 Mainly allocated to Bramley these were stalwart performers on such routes as the 54 Halton Moor-Rodley and 23 Leeds -Intake for most of their lives. My dad was a conductor for LCT for almost thirty years and always maintained that these were the best buses he ever worked on.
Does any other Leeds bus fan remember the coin tester in the lower saloon ceiling and the huge circulation area at the top of the stairs.
Like a number of AEC Regents these buses retained the old style Leeds blind with via points to the end

Chris Hough

25/07/11 – 08:48

AEC man agrees that there is little to compare with an all-Leyland PD2 and I remember coin testers on Sheffield buses – but I had forgotten about them until you jogged my memory!

David Oldfield

25/07/11 – 09:03

From personal experience I don’t know much about LCT buses but Chris’s mention of the coin tester reminds me of a similar device that Huddersfield Corporation/JOC used. It was a metal bar about an inch and a half long with various sized slots cut into it for testing the authenticity of coins. It was usually located (on rear entrance buses) on the bulkhead underneath the staircase along with a wood and glass holder which contained (if I remember rightly) a booklet with the Corporation/JOC byelaws and regulations. Strangely, I can’t remember either the coin tester or booklet holder being fitted to front entrance half cab buses. However,this may be due to the fact that on rear entrance buses my favourite seat was the long inward facing seat over the rear near side wheel-arch, thus I was facing the staircase bulkhead and its fittings on most journeys, whereas on front entrance half cabs I would sit anywhere in the lower saloon so wouldn’t always be facing the staircase bulkhead to make the same observations. Has anybody else any memories of riding on “proper” buses.

Eric

25/07/11 – 09:04

Well Chris H you certainly have me there !! Having worked on many Leyland bodied PD1s/2s over the years I’ve no idea what a “coin tester” was in the lower saloon ceiling – please let us know. The Bramley vehicles also figured prominently on the 65 Bus Station to Pudsey route, including the days when that service terminated in Rockingham Street. I do, though, well remember the large circulating area upstairs – this was indeed excessive and some operators took advantage of this by putting an extra seat on the offside, thereby increasing the seating capacity to H32/26R. Samuel Ledgard treated most, if not all, of their large fleet of these bodies – new and second hand – in this manner. Even after this the step top area remained adequate for passenger flow. The retention of the original destination blinds caused a wonderful anomaly in later years – Torre Road Depot had a handful of the PD2s and often used them on a teatime peak journey on the 36 route which by then was a different service altogether and went from the Bus Station to Tinshill – still displaying “36 Harehills Oakwood” from the original itinerary in North East Leeds. By the way, although I was at Headingley as a driver and later a “bookman” I did quite frequently work at Bramley and I’m sure I remember your Dad very well indeed – Happy days !!

Chris Youhill

25/07/11 – 15:32

The “coin tester” was a small protuberance in the lower deck ceiling at the front of the bus shaped like half an orange split in two and around the size of a large grape I’ve only ever seen this on the Leeds Titans and was told it was a coin tester as a child Leeds were never lavish with bell provision on their buses until the advent of strip bells in the sixties I’ve seen a full bus started away from stops by a sharp rap from a coin on the driver’s bulkhead window on many occasions! One other LCT idiosyncrasy was the provision of a curtain blind on the passenger front bulkhead window for night time running was this unique to Leeds? The one on the drivers bulkhead window often had a small aperture in the top corner for the driver to see the inside of the lower deck.

Chris Hough

25/07/11 – 20:57

A blind on the passenger front bulkhead? I remember those in Nottingham in the early 1960s. Always annoyed me because I wanted to look out of the window and pretend to be a driver

A Non

25/07/11 – 20:58

Chris, Sheffield had coin testers and the blinds – inside the cab for the driver (with hole) and in the saloon on the nearside.

David Oldfield

25/07/11 – 20:59

As far as I’m aware Chris H, night curtains were legally obligatory on both front windows of the old style vehicles.

Chris Youhill

27/07/11 – 08:00

I am sure that London Transport RT / RM buses had nearside front window blinds – the ones on RMs didn’t go quite the full width of the window – see photo here //www.ltmcollection.org/images/webmax/xs/i00000xs.jpg
I can’t remember them being used in the 70s or later

Jon

27/07/11 – 12:07

This batch of LCT Titans always fascinated me as we drove through the Bramley area from Bradford on a frequent basis, and they always seemed to be concentrated in that area of Leeds.
As a Bradford lad, I was always fascinated by the differences compared to our own BCPT Titans.
The NNW series were almost to Farington style, with flush mounted fully radiused windows, and no rain shields, giving an ultra modern look which seemed enhanced by the 7ft.6ins. width. Most contemporary Titans at that time did not have this modernised “cleaned up” look, and I am wondering if LCT played some part in the development programme which led up to the Farington style which became more common with the advent of the post 1951 longer chassis.
Or did Leyland offer this style at this early date, and, if so, which other fleets received them on PD2/1 or PD2/3 chassis in 1949/50?
They were certainly very handsome vehicles, and, like all Leyland bodies, had a good life span.

John Whitaker

28/07/11 – 06:16

There has been a lot of misunderstanding about the so-called “Farington style” Leyland bodies. The latest thinking is that the name refers to this version rather than the later one. I do agree that it is visually enhanced by the 7’6″ width when compared to, say Manchester’s “salmon tins”, one of which is seen here //www.sct61.org.uk/mn3290.htm  Southport also had some, see //www.sct61.org.uk/sp106a.htm and Sheffield //www.sct61.org.uk/sh621.htm  and I’m sure there were others.

Peter Williamson

28/07/11 – 15:20

This style IS the Farington – experts now tell us that the final version is NOT. There does not, however seem to be a name for it. Sheffield had two batches of true Faringtons, like these Leeds examples, in 1949 – so they were not an exclusive, nor an experimental model.

David Oldfield

28/07/11 – 15:22

I’ve always understood that this version was known as the ‘Farington style’ Perhaps the reason that many people applied the same name (incorrectly) to the later and final version was simply because no one ever gave it a name of it’s own. I must say that the Southport example looks particularly fine!

Chris Barker

28/07/11 – 15:24

John W mentions he always saw lots of Leyland bodied Titans in the Bramley area. This was definitely home ground to these buses as most of them spent their entire working lives at Bramley depot which for most of its postwar existence was 100% Leyland. It got its first 30ft long vehicles (PD3A/2) in 1962/63
Bramley was a former tram depot which presented some operating problems the main being the fact that being built on a hill the ground sloped away from the original entrance on Henconneer Lane To ease access and manoeuvrability problems a second exit was made but this needed a ramp to ground level.
The original depot was closed and demolished in 1969 being replaced by a large purpose built one a few hundred yards away this is still in use by First.

Chris Hough

30/07/11 – 07:57

Sheffield had 64 ‘Farington’ style Leyland bodies in all, spread over all three fleets, 52 in the ‘A’, 10 sprinkled throughout the jointly owned ‘B’, and 2 in the ‘C’ fleet which was wholly owned by British Railways. Interestingly they were all painted in a variation of the standard Sheffield livery, which for many years came to be reserved for ‘Farington’ bodied Titans and anything with a body from Charles H. Roe!
Ironically, when LCT 380 came to town on its enthusiast’s excursion, it was one of the the first batch of Sheffield PD2’s, dating from 1947, that accompanied it around the city! Despite the body on STD 545 KWA545 being only two years older than the first ‘Farington’s,’ the contrast between it and the very elegant Leeds machine was stark, to say the least.

Dave Careless

08/08/11 – 10:20

MEMORIES !!
I was a “Bramley Lad” in the 60s and these bus’s were VERY close to my heart as my Dad drove for the Bramley Depot!
I have fond and vivid memories of the move to the new Towns End Depot, there was a very exciting open day where we got to ride the new one man bus’s through the Bus Wash !!! We lost Dad 3 years ago, I wish we had found this forum before he went he would have filled this sight with Facts and Figures.

Graham Morton

02/08/12 – 07:22

I’m surprised no one mentioned that some members of the 340-399 batch of Leylands were fixtures on the 38 Moortown-Whitkirk from many years between 1949 and at least 1956; I rode the route fairly frequently, waited for buses and trams at Moortown corner at least twice daily and remember seeing nothing else on that route, though I know other types did show up occasionally.

Andrew Young

02/08/12 – 11:25

There were in fact only a very small handful of the batch allocated to Torre Road Depot – a strange situation really, as you would have thought an “all at Bramley” allocation would have better suited their manual transmission specification. The 38 service, on a half hourly frequency and one hour a round trip, required only two vehicles and so its not really surprising that the “NNW”s gave the impression of being the universal type.

Chris Youhill

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

15/11/15 – 16:14

I worked at Bramley depot and drove on the 54, 65 and 77 routes. It was these routes that helped me learn how to do “snatch” gear changes, especially on Kirkstall Hill. The only problem with these buses was brake fade, after two applications of the footbrake (no air brakes) the vacuum brakes were useless. I can recall having a brand new Mini brake suddenly in front of me, and I hit it from the rear making it a “short wheelbase” Mini. I will always remember the PD2/1s as being a sturdy vehicle.

David Thorpe

16/11/15 – 05:37

I agree with you wholeheartedly David regarding the vacuum brakes on the PD2s – and believe me the brakes on the 30 foot elegant PD3s were even worse. As local folks will know, The Leeds PD3s in their time bore the brunt of the extremely busy Moortown/Roundhay/Middleton/Belle Isle former tram routes and I’ve had some alarming near misses with them when fully laden, and I think I can honestly claim not have been a “nutter” putting timekeeping above all else like some ill advised chaps did. I’ve driven PD2s/PD3s for several operators and the same problem has arisen with them all, and I’m sure that this was n reflection on maintenance – it was simply a characteristic of the Leyland design. In fact a very good friend of mine, a conscientious driver, had his own method of ensuring that the PD3s would stop safely – on approaching every stop he would apply maximum revs and execute a faultless change down from top to third – I doubt if this reflected favourably on fuel consumption but I’m sure that LCT could stand that due to their well known “run ’em on fresh air” policy. Now very oddly, I’ve driven a heck of lot of PD1s – one of my very favourite models and very appealing too – but their brakes always seemed far more up to the job. This is most strange because in size, weight and passenger capacity they were virtually the same as the PD2 and no doubt had similar or identical braking systems. Despite the enormous and widespread success and popularity of the PD2s/PD3s this aspect will no doubt remain a mystery for ever.

Chris Youhill

16/11/15 – 15:22

I paid a visit to the excellent Dewsbury Bus Museum open day yesterday. The highlight for me was a trip on the superbly restored West Riding lowbridge all Leyland PD2/1. What a tribute to Leyland quality – and I’d forgotten that Leyland pre dated the lightweight Orion with no interior panels below the upper deck waist rail. David comments on the all Leylands being a sturdy vehicle, this is borne out by my experience of the Sheffield buses of this type, especially the 1947/8 builds with the polished interior wood finish. Chris Y comments on brake performance on PD2s and PD3s. My experience is that the air braked PD2 was ok, the air braked PD3 less so. Spare a thought for drivers with the sole vacuum braked PD3/3 with PMT (see elsewhere on this site for H811) whilst all its brethren were air braked.

Ian Wild

17/11/15 – 11:01

Most interesting views Ian, and to be honest I’ve never driven an air braked PD2, all mine have been vacuum – apart perhaps for the one “RTL” that I drove, that being one of the ten Leeds City Transport preselector models 301 – 310. I had booked overtime at a different garage to my own in order to enjoy such a drive when the class of ten was down to two of three. I was so delighted by the experience that I don’t recall any issue with the brakes on the three hour piece of rather “gentle” work, consisting of dead mileage and duplicates.

Chris Youhill

17/11/15 – 13:40

I recall a photo of an impeccable SL “RT” on the roof of a garage, some time ago, Chris Y. You’ve also driven an “RTL”. What characteristics were different between the two? Or maybe you don’t remember, so relaxing was the experience with the RTL!

Could someone explain what the little white oblong box under the canopy, centre-front was all about?

Chris Hebbron

18/11/15 – 07:18

Chris H – well in simple terms Chris “everything was different” as with any AEC/Leyland comparison. The Leyland steering was far more positive and the AEC steady tickover produced a totally different effect from the flywheel/gearbox than did the delightful “hunting and gentle wobbling” of the Leyland. I don’t know if there was much difference in top speed but perhaps the Leyland might have just had the edge, and certainly had less tendency to alarming leaning when loaded. Both vehicles of course wonderful and highly successful in their different ways, such is the delight of variety. The rooftop garage that you mention would of course be Armley – the rooftop park was exactly the same size as the garage beneath and must have been capable of carrying an unbelievable weight. When Samuel Ledgard died in 1952 practically every withdrawn vehicle from Day One was up there – yes, including the original charabancs from 1912 – if only the preservation funds and movement had been as prolific then !!
Regarding the picture of NNW 380 in this topic, the little white box is the illuminated “Limited” sign – a moderately successful device for discouraging passengers from boarding on certain peak services where boarding and alighting stops were “limited” for the benefit of longer distance passengers. Quite a number of the blighters though were adept at taking a calculated risk by paying the minimum fare applicable but baling out in the heavy traffic which they knew was to be expected – they considered that the dearer fare was worth it for a quicker journey home. This was really anti social in perhaps the same way as people nowadays who operate pelican crossings and then cross against the red man causing traffic to halt for nothing later.

Chris Youhill

18/11/15 – 07:20

I asked this in another forum a couple of weeks ago Chris, and was informed it was to display ‘LIMITED STOP’.

Stephen Howarth

18/11/15 – 07:27

Even I can tell you that the little white oblong box could be illuminated to say “Limited”, Chris.
My memories of LCT were certainly these and those bare metal engine covers, which seemed to appear about the time of the tram replacement scheme in the 1950’s. That’s why that similarly treated “classic” Crossley is a mystery: as well as a few cranked seats, did other 50’s Leeds buses have rearward facing front bulkhead seats?
Did you notice, too, that the 1952 Regent III in the Gallery is from Roe’s big window period, whilst the Daimler/Orion shows, by contrast, what a miserable looking design these were. Good Pics though.
What a smart livery, anywhere, any bus. Progress is not inevitable…pink and puce?

Joe

Sheffield Corporation – Leyland Titan PD2 – RWJ 713 – 713


Copyright Ian Wild

Sheffield Corporation
1954
Leyland Titan PD2/12
Weymann H32/26R

It’s 27th April 1968 and Sheffield 713 turns from Leopold Street terminus into West Street on another trip out into the country at Rivelin Dams.
713 was one of the batch of 56 (the largest single batch of buses purchased by Sheffield) delivered in March/April 1954 to replace trams on the Ecclesall – City – Middlewood route. Apart from accident victim 707, all the batch were withdrawn in 1967 and 1968 so 713 had only a short service life left by the time of this picture.
Nowadays Sheffield Supertram runs through the middle of this picture on its way to Middlewood but via a different route that 713 and its sister vehicles would have taken countless times during their 13/14 year life.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Ian Wild

A full list of Titan codes can be seen here.

13/09/11 – 07:53

April 1968 – my last few months in Sheffield as a student and I well remember these PD2s. Service 54 ran to a reservoir/control room just over the border in Derbyshire but was nevertheless a Corporation A route rather than a Joint Omnibus Committee B route, as was generally the case with cross-boundary services. The terminus was at the Norfolk Arms, now no more.

Geoff Kerr

13/09/11 – 17:00

Can anybody please enlighten me on the road layout at this point in 1968. On the face of it, there is a roundabout with yellow flowers but behind PD2 No. 713 is a rear engined machine seemingly turning right into Church Street ‘wrong way’. Also, there is a ‘No Entry’ sign at the Leopold Street corner.

John Darwent

14/09/11 – 07:43

Would that be The Norfolk Arms at Ringinglow Geoff ?

Roger Broughton

14/09/11 – 07:44

You’re not the only one who is intrigued, John. I was in the fourth form at school along the route of 713 when this was taken and cannot remember this odd layout – which is at the confluence of Leopold Street (to right), West Street (where 713 is entering), Church Street (where early Atlantean is heading) and Town Head Street (off to the left). The spire in the background is Sheffield Cathedral.
The Norfolk Arms was always well within the city limits. Even though they are different and wider now, there was always a great deal of countryside on the south and west side. In the post 1974 Sheffield, half the area is countryside, a third of it in the Peak District National Park.

David Oldfield

14/09/11 – 07:45

A one way loop had been introduced earlier in the 1960s comprising Leopold St, Church St and Fargate. Coming along Leopold St, traffic could turn left into West Street(as 713), right (wrong side of the roundabout)into Church St(as the Atlantean) or go straight ahead down Townhead St. Similarly traffic inbound on West St could use the roundabout in the conventional way and access Church St merging with the loop traffic from Leopold St. Sounds complicated written down but hope this assists.

Ian Wild

14/09/11 – 07:47

Nice buses these, but to me they always seemed slow and ponderous compared to the SWE-registered Regents with the same style of Weymann body, except for the outswept panels.
The AEC’s had that barking exhaust, and would come tearing out of the platforms in the bus station on their way to Hackenthorpe and Hemsworth, making Pond Street sound more like a racing car circuit than a municipal bus station. They had a smarter style of wheel nut ring as well, but I’d better not get going on that topic or there’ll be no end to it. What a splendid city for buses though, in those days.

Dave Careless

14/09/11 – 16:56

The Norfolk Arms mentioned above was on Manchester Road. The Norfolk Arms at Ringinglow is still very much in existence.

Stephen Bloomfield

14/09/11 – 16:56

What can I do, Dave, but agree with you. I had far more contact with the Regent IIIs than the PD2s – and did not regret it for one minute.

David Oldfield

15/09/11 – 09:27

Thank you for the explanation Ian. I worked in George Street from 1961 through 1964 but cannot for the life of me remember the one-way loop. Probably attentions towards the fairer sex had taken over at that time.
Ah well.

John Darwent

16/09/11 – 09:26

John, I think the one way loop came in later than 1964 which is why you wouldn’t recall it.

Ian Wild

17/09/11 – 08:04

Thanks Stephen, yes I know, we often call in when been out walking.

Roger Broughton

18/09/11 – 06:10

Photographs of this batch of buses always make me think of Endcliffe Park in Sheffield; you could see and hear them through the trees at the edge of the park, running along Rustlings Road every few minutes back and forth to Fulwood on the busy 88 service.
I remember going to the park on one of these one summer afternoon with my mother in the early sixties, and on getting off the bus, seeing for the first time in a toy shop window on Ecclesall Road an ‘Exide’ version of the Dinky Toys double decker. I pleaded for one, but it wasn’t in the equation, as despite whining and moaning all afternoon, it was apparent that an ice cream was as good as it was going to get! About four years ago, I finally bought one on eBay; it didn’t have a box, but it was considerably more than the modern day equivalent of 4/2 !!

Dave Careless

23/10/11 – 07:43

Hi very interesting site, much enjoyed. On this page, however, there is an error The Route 54 Rivelin Dams ran out of Pinfold Lane. The Route 51 Lodge Moor ran from Leopold Street. Route 51 was my first route as a rookie driver. The buses on that route during the 60s were AECs and on my first ever trip I was unable to get the handbrake off. I never experienced an AEC in driving school and was unaware that it was necessary to put ones foot down on the footbrake in order to release it. See this photo of mine of a PD2 I had driven to Rivelin Dams – //www.geograph.org.uk/

Dave Hitchborne

23/10/11 – 08:10

Sorry to argue, Dave, but the 51 and 50 left from Pinfold Lane – not far from Scout HQ and shop. I was a regular on the 51 from a young age, visiting family.

David Oldfield

04/12/11 – 07:46

Did the 54 later only go to Wyming Brook?

James Walker

15/03/12 – 09:30

Sorry, but I’m going to argue the point on this till the cows come home and my wife/clippie and I remember the Dore 50 and the Rivelin Dams 54 running from Pinfold Street and the Lodge Moor 51 ran from Leopold Street. Another reason for remembering the 51 running from Leopold Street is that it went from town via West Street and came back via Division Street and Barker’s Pool. On one occasion I was waiting to turn out of Barker’s Pool onto Leopold Street with a sports car in front when the driver of a Walkley 95 waived us both to proceed into Leopold Street. The sports car set off and I followed waiving and thanking the 95 driver when I suddenly realised that the sports car had stopped around the corner at the pedestrian crossing and I was inches away from it when I stamped on the brakes. The bus stopped, but my reserve conductor was hurled to the front of the bus where I heard him whack the bulkhead behind me. He then spent about 10 mins in Leopold Street instructing me on his knowledge of the English language. I believe his name was Abdul Roafe and I have a photo of him.

Dave Hitchborne

16/03/12 – 12:45

Regarding the debate on the 50, 51 and 54, I have had a look in the STD Timetable and the following is stated;

October 1951 T/T
50 Departs City (Trippett Lane) *
51 City (Pinfold Street)
54 and 55 City (Leopold Street)

May 1960 T/T
50 Departs City (Pinfold Street) *
51 City (Pinfold Street)
54 and 55 City (Leopold Street)

So, apart from the 50 moving a few yards to align with the 51 at Pinfold Street, they all remained more or less the same during this time scale. If there were subsequent alterations in the 1960’s, I can’t say as I don’t have the records but it seems that, at the moment, David O is ahead on points! Perhaps someone has a timetable to confirm departure points and routes taken in subsequent years.

John Darwent

17/03/12 – 06:22

Thank you for your defence, John. On reading Dave H’s post, something occurred to me. The 51 eventually became a cross city service to Gleadless/Herdings. At that point it would have travelled along Leopold Street from Gleadless to Lodge Moor. It would then go down Townhead Street and turn up broad Lane. In the other direction it left Broad Lane to end up going down Trippett Lane.

David Oldfield

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

18/03/12 – 07:46

Regarding Sheffield Corporation buses in the 1950s does anybody remember a bizarre religious sect who took advertisement space with such warnings as ‘The Wages of Sin is Death’ and other warnings. Bringing the subject right up to date I notice that here at Lothian Buses we have a number of buses with the advertisement ‘Try Praying’.

Philip Carlton

19/03/12 – 09:18

Interesting observation Philip. Is the advertisement aimed at Edinburgh citizens in general, or just passengers waiting for buses provided by one of Lothian RT’s major competitors do you think?

Brendan Smith

Stockport Corporation – Leyland Titan PD2 – EDB 547 – 293


Copyright Roger Cox

Stockport Corporation
1951
Leyland Titan PD2/1
Leyland H30/26R

I note with some surprise that Stockport Corporation does not feature in the list of operators on the website, so perhaps this picture of two of Stockport’s excellently proportioned all Leyland PD2s might redress this omission. I believe that I took this photograph, which dates from 1969, somewhere in the Manchester area. I have no doubt that our Forum experts will identify the location. No 293, EDB 547, and its fellow parked behind it (No.294, I think) was a Leyland PD2/1 with Leyland H30/26R bodywork delivered in 1951, and was representative of a batch of 44 of such buses taken into stock from 1949 onwards. They were preceded by some 40 Crossley DD42s, all with Crossley bodies, and the Corporation’s experience of these machines was such that the Leylands were chosen for the 1949-51 deliveries. However, Crossley, whose post war factory was in Errwood Park, used the “local employment” argument to secure the subsequent order for 24 DD42/7 buses with Crossley H30/26R bodies, much against the wishes of the Transport Department. Thereafter, however, Leylands reigned supreme in the Stockport fleet. No 293 passed to the new SELNEC PTE in 1969, no doubt ultimately to suffer the appalling indignity of being repainted into the truly ghastly orange and white garb of that organisation. In any list of the worst bus liveries of all time, the SELNEC effort must surely rank near the top, even against strong challenges from the present day privatised crop of aesthetic abominations.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox

A full list of Titan codes can be seen here.

06/10/11 – 07:12

Could we have a league table of hideous liveries? South Yorkshire’s bilious yellow & red was pretty bad- Yorkshire Rider wasn’t wonderful as isn’t Fussy First either, but the award surely goes to Lincs Roadcar/Yorkshire Traction (did both have it?) low floor purple and yellow. For sheer design boredom, we have to go back to NBC who also managed to pick some pretty horrid shades, which takes some doing in red and green.

Joe

06/10/11 – 07:13

This photograph is taken in early SELNEC days (they have SELNEC legal lettering). These were the first of a variety of Stockport buses to work from the former SHMD depot in Stalybridge. They were most of the remaining Leyland-bodied PD2s from Stockport – 293, 297-9 and 303-306 (EDB 547/51-3/7-60).
These ran for a couple of years and survived to be given their SELNEC fleet numbers (5913/7-9/23-6). However, for some time two of them (297/8) received SHMD fleet numbers 51/2, using standard SHMD transfers. Remarkably, 52 was fully repainted in SHMD green. (It is perhaps worth noting here that Stockport 302 was transferred to Oldham and repainted in Oldham pommard and cream, in this instance initially being numbered 5202 as if it was a former Oldham bus. This was soon changed to the correct 5922.)
The renumbering took place, from memory in early 1971 so I suspect your shot is from 1970. It is in Stalybridge bus station. For comparison there is a photo of my own on this site in almost exactly the same location at this link.
Whilst I understand your sentiments about the orange livery as it didn’t generally sit very well on older buses, I think it served its political (i.e. neutral) objectives and orange became very successfully synonymous with Manchester area buses for many years.

David Beilby

06/10/11 – 07:14

Quite a number of this batch were sold to Berresfords of Cheddleton and were a familiar sight at Longton Bus Station still in Stockport livery having worked on the service from Leek.

Ian Wild

All Leyland PD2s rank among my all time favourites. I never really came across these, despite being a student in Manchester from 1971 – 1975 (and then ’til 1976 in Warrington).
Living in South Manchester I was very aware of the Stockport East Lancs PD2s (and the Crossley PD2s as well). What immediately struck one was how superbly turned out and maintained they were in stark contrast to the Manchester fleet. The “all red” Manchester livery with painted window surrounds must have been an all time low – pictures of the earlier Red/Cream looked so much better.

David Oldfield

07/10/11 – 13:25

Manchester buses in the early 1960’s (pre-Bennett era) always gave me the impression they were painted by some sort of dipping process. Everything apart from the tyres and glass was red! The fleet at this time really had a careworn appearance.
On the subject of Crossleys, the company seemed to get a lot of business on the basis of the ‘local jobs’ card in the early post-war era. Not only Stockport but Manchester and Oldham took large deliveries and one detects local politicians overriding the wishes of the professionals when these decisions were made.

Philip Halstead

08/10/11 – 05:22

I read recently the phrase “distress purchasing” referring to what people buy that they can afford, or what is available, as opposed to what they really wanted (eg Korean or Communist block cars of time gone by). Just about all post war Crossleys were distress purchases. People bought whatever was available in a bid to buy sufficient vehicles to replace those worn out by war time privation. Very few chose to buy Crossley. It is well documented that Stuart Pilcher (Manchester) always wanted to buy AECs but the Manchester Councillors always blocked it, insisting on Crossleys because they were local. Sheffield’s post war Crossleys were all transferred from orders made by other authorities – their preferred AECs, not to mention Weymann bodies, not available in sufficient numbers.

David Oldfield

11/10/11 – 05:23

I really must spring to the defence of the original SELNEC livery. At the time I didn’t like it either, since it obliterated all those splendid municipal liveries, and there’s no doubt it looked pretty awful when applied to some older types, and when it was badly weathered. However, if you look at the SELNEC Standards, for which it was designed, the proportions of the paint perfectly complement the body style. Looking back forty years on, it was light years ahead of the ghastly insipid schemes adopted by all the other PTEs and NBC, and was a real trend-setter. And (whisper it softly) a few of the older buses actually looked quite well in it: Stockport’s East-Lancs PDs being a notable case.

David Jones

11/10/11 – 05:24

General opinion seems to be that there was nothing wrong with the postwar Crossley except its engine. The same could also be said of that other postwar “distress purchase” the Daimler CVD6, necessitated mainly by a shortage of Gardner engines. Birmingham numbered both types among its tin-front standards, but by the time those Crossleys were delivered, AEC had purchased Crossley and sorted out its engine problems. I once met someone from Birmingham who had worked on both types, and he said that the Crossleys were far superior to the Daimlers!

Peter Williamson

11/10/11 – 12:03

The engine is rather important, though. Sheffield had some distress purchased CV6s as well. Again, the engine was rather critical. [Earlier posts on this web-site tell of the Daimler engines’ weaknesses better than I.] Having said that, all that Peter says is true.

David Oldfield

11/10/11 – 12:05

Certainly the basic Crossley chassis was well engineered, but in addition to the engine, which AEC improved, but could never make into a really sound unit, Crossley steering was always exceedingly heavy, and the three axle Dominion trolleybuses were nigh on impossible in this respect. The characteristic that emerges from Crossley, apparently due in no small part to the personality of Managing Director Arthur Hubble, is the refusal to listen to or learn from customers.

Roger Cox

09/04/12 – 06:42

I agree with the defence of the Selnec livery. I actually quite liked the original orange and white and some buses looked good in it, the Mancunians and Selnec Standards particularly so. I also thought some of Manchesters late batches of PD2s in the 36xx and 37xx series suited it too, in an odd way.
I didn’t like the later GMT livery which incorporated brown however.

David Pomfret

13/05/12 – 08:39

I used these buses regularly in the 1960s on the 92 route mainly but also on the 74 and 40. The Leylands were superb so the drivers of the underdog Crossleys often needed to prove that actually they were better. However sometimes from the back of the depot a couple of Guy Arabs emerged. These had protruding radiators and wartime blackout blinds in their rear upstairs windows. It was almost a privilege to get a ride on one of these. They all seemed like they would last for ever but they are probably all gone now.

Malcolm

12/06/12 – 18:56

As a youngster in Stockport during the 1950’s I was always struck by the different sounds which came from the Leylands and the Crossleys. The Leylands seem to have a ‘breathy, wheezing’ sound, whereas the Crossleys would give out a ‘groaning, grinding’ sound…
That said, there was nothing better than to stand at the roadside and hear (were they the last batch bought by Stockport??) the newer Crossleys on the ‘flagship’ 33 route from Manchester to Romiley – a limited stop route where much higher than normal speeds were evident between stops which were sometimes almost a mile apart….
A bit off track, and apologies, but I wonder if anyone has any pictures or remembers the rather unique ten Leylands purchased by Stockport which had Longwell Green bodies ? I think that they were perhaps the last vehicles ever purchased by Stockport, and eventually replaced the Crossleys on the 33 route before passing over to SELNEC. Vivid memories of using them, although I’ve never been able to track down a picture of them – even here we don’t list Longwell Green amongst the body builders and maybe Stockport’s were the only examples in municipal service.

Stuart C

13/06/12 – 08:06

Stuart there are shots of the Longwell Green PD2s on www.sct61.org.uk dating from 1960 these unusual buses always looked very ECW in appearance to my mind. From 1962 Stockport bought exposed radiator East Lancs bodied PD2s and finally PD3s with front entrance bodywork. They actually ordered Bristol VRs but these were written off in the East Lancs fire.

Chris Hough

13/06/12 – 08:07

Stuart, I’d forgotten about the Longwell Greens until you mentioned them. [I was a student and then worked in the South Manchester area from 1971 – 1980.] The last Leylands for Stockport were PD3/East Lancs in 1968/9. Longwell Green, I believe came from the Bristol area but were very popular for a time with Newport (South Wales) Corporation.

David Oldfield

13/06/12 – 08:10

Ref the comment about Municipal operation of Longwell Green bodies. There were certainly LG bodies on Leylands at Newport and from memory a number of the smaller Welsh municipalities also used this bodybuilder.

Andrew

13/06/12 – 08:11

Stuart…Might this be a picture of the Leyland/Longwell Green buses that you recall? It is quite a handsome design with interesting and unusual details. //www.flickr.com/

Richard Leaman

13/06/12 – 08:12

I have a couple of photographs of these Longwell Green bodies online and visible here  and here  Both show these buses working from Oldham in 1973, but still in Stockport livery. I don’t believe any ran in service in orange but many of the batch did get the orange livery as they became training buses, in which role they ended up being seen all over Manchester. The EDB Crossleys would have been more lively than the earlier examples as they had the later and more effective downdraught engine – probably why they were used on that service. Longwell Green were based in Bristol and did quite a bit of rebuilding as well as new bodies. They seemed to find a market in South Wales with Newport in particular buying a lot of (exposed-radiator) PD2s with their bodies. The last I’m aware of were two 1966 AEC Regent Vs with front-entrance bodies for Pontypridd Urban District Council in 1966.

David Beilby

13/06/12 – 16:58

Thanks everyone….And particularly to Chris for his link to PJA 913….I’ve spent a couple of years trying to find a photo of this batch, and I’d have to say that having seen this one last night they were as elegant as my memory would have it….Different enough to be different enough, if you know what I mean….Does anyone have any idea why, out of the blue, Stockport chose Longwell Green ??
Also on the same page is a wonderful picture of EDB 578, one of the final Crossleys that I was talking about – and wouldn’t you know, operating the 33 route from Manchester to Romiley and ( on this picture ) Greave….I can’t remember if the 33 route was a joint operation with Manchester, perhaps it was, but there also used to be the older Manchester Crossleys which always operated the Manchester only 109 route from Reddish via Gorton to Manchester City Centre….Memories of taking both routes on the same day and even as a youngster being aware of the difference in acceleration and speed between the older Manchester vehicles and the then cream-of-the-fleet Stockport vehicles….
Terrific memories….

Stuart C

14/06/12 – 07:38

Sorry to wander away from Stockport Corporation a little but there’s something odd about the vehicle in Richard’s link. The date of the Longwell Green body is given as 1955 and I took it to be a PD2 at first glance but the registration, EBX, was issued in March 1948. The radiator suggests that it could be a re-bodied PD1. The date of the body would be correct, it’s certainly not a 1948 body. There was an article on here a while ago which I think had a link to a James fleet history but I’m unable to find it now. Does anyone have the details about this vehicle?

Chris Barker

26/09/12 – 06:57

Stockport ordered Longwell Green bodies due to price and the demise of its traditional bodybuilders- Crossley and Leyland. Apart from the English Electric bodied pre-war Tigers, and the wartime Guy Arabs (in that instance Stockport didn’t have a choice) the fleet was traditionally Leyland and Crossley bodied.
From conversations with people in the works and depot in the 1960s the bodies were excellent but no repeat order was made as Stockport’s manager, Eric Baxter,was due to retire in 1962 and wanted to start a fleet renewal policy with a standard vehicle, before he went. He thus ordered PD2s again but, needing continuity of supply and the possibility of large (for Stockport) orders by the middle of the decade, he needed a larger builder than Longwell Green which mixed bus building with its main occupation of van building.
Frank Brimelow replaced Eric Baxter and by 1963 had worked with East Lancs to refine a very traditional body to Stockport’s needs, a lineage that lasted until SELNEC took over. Ironically East Lancs couldn’t cope with Stockport’s needs by the middle of the decade and had to sub let one order to its Neepsend subsidiary.
There are comments that the Longwell Green bodies have an ECW look. This may be so but the story I was told was that the frames were from Burlingham who ceased double deck production in 1960. Stockport had wanted Burlingham to tender as Baxter greatly admired the Manchester Burlingham bodies delivered from the mid 50s. As Stockport had not needed new vehicles between the all Leyland and all Crossley buses of the early 1950s, his only chance to order Burlingham bodies came with the 1957 order for PD2s which higher authority insisted was given to Crossley – a bad decision as Crossley closed down before the order was completed and some of the bodies were finished by the Corporation.

Phil Blinkhorn

26/09/12 – 16:01

Chris B: Well spotted – EBX 663 was a rebodied PS1. According to the PSV Circle fleet history of South Wales Transport, who took over James in 1962, it was new in 1948 to James; in 1954, it was converted to PD1 spec including new chassis frames, by Western Welsh at their Ely Works, then rebodied by Longwell Green. No details of the original bodywork,unfortunately.

Bob Gell

26/09/12 – 17:23

New chassis frames – new body – sounds a bit like Paddy’s original brush, or Caesar’s original penknife. (Accountant’s rebuilds as certain classes of Great Western Railway steam locos were laughingly called!)

Stephen Ford

03/10/12 – 06:12

PHIL…
Thanks for the detailed info/explanation…
I always wondered how and /or why these Longwell Green bodies arrived in Stockport’s fleet…As I said earlier, complete oddballs in the North West of the 60’s…
You say that they were ‘excellent’ although of course, I didn’t really notice or appreciate engineering quality in those days – it was all about the ‘look’…
But any idea what happened to this batch after SELNEC ?? Straight to a date with a blowtorch, or did they live on somewhere, hopefully in a less ‘garish’ livery….
Thanks again…

Stuart C

03/10/12 – 10:18

To the best of my knowledge all the Longwell Green PD2s went to the breakers after further service with SELNEC.
They fell victim to both SELNEC’s reduced life policy and the drive to change all services to OMO around 1973, though 348 (PJA 918) stayed on as TV1 (Training Vehicle 1) in the driver training fleet. I don’t have a date for withdrawal.
As SELNEC maintained a wide range of MCTD policies, almost all vehicles withdrawn went for scrap (a policy which left large gaps in the range of MCTD vehicles available for preservation) and this also reduced the availability of vehicles from other fleets absorbed.

Phil Blinkhorn

15/10/12 – 07:37

There are numerous references in a variety of publications and forum posts to the Stockport Longwell Green PD2 having a look of ECW about them and, in fairness, the output from ECW on Leyland PD1s do seem to have some resemblance. http.www.sct61.org.uk/nw217.
The Stockport bodies were almost the ultimate development of the Longwell Green genre which had been around for half a decade or more.
Before leaving on my trip I tried to research any link between Longwell Green, Bristol and ECW. The only link I can find is that Bristol built bus bodies until around 1955 which, after WW2, resembled ECW products, ECW at that time of course was THE builder on Bristol chassis for the Tilling Group.
At the same time Bristol was building cabs for its trucks. When it closed the Brislington bodyshop it transferred the cab jigs to Longwell Green.
Other than that there seems to be no link.
The Longwell Green/Burlingham link is equally difficult to prove. Apart from what I was told at Stockport the body style looks like a toned down version of the Burlingham product, the spectacle type of rear upper deck emergency exit windows being the major visual link.
As Longwell Green used the style well in advance of Burlingham finishing double decker production, I assume there must be some record somewhere of an agreement.

Phil Blinkhorn

15/10/12 – 09:44

Phil..Could the link between Longwell Green and ECW be as simple as LG Coachworks being in Bristol (about five miles from the Bristol factory) and simply that the designers were surrounded every day by ECW designs and so copied a lot of the detail into their work. ECW bodies were in my opinion beautifully built and highly workmanlike so maybe they thought that was a good one to emulate.

Richard Leaman

15/10/12 – 16:56

Richard,
That is, of course, possible.

Phil Blinkhorn

24/10/12 – 11:19

As Phil Blinkhorn says, the main key to the belief that the Longwell Green bodies are on Burlingham frames is in the rear profile of these buses. Search Flikr for “Stockport Corporation Bus” and a picture of #343 parked up on route #40 should emerge. There are other steers too. The radius on the window frames and more so on the destination and route number frames suggest that there are Burlingham influences there too.
Many prefer the Burlingham bodied batch of PD2’s that Manchester Corporation to the contemporaneous MCW products. Not I, nor the Burlingham bodied CVG’s that Manchester acquired at the same time.
Despite all the problems that Stockport Corporation had in obtaining (and finishing some of) the Crossley bodied PD2’s they remain quite my favourite combination of PD2 bodies for SCTD. 4 bays beat 5 in my book on 27′ double deckers.
And finally, how nice to see a SCTD Crossley bodied Leyland running around Stockport again after all these years. I refer of course to Tiger Cub #403.

Orla Nutting

Vehicle reminder shot for this posting

03/06/13 – 06:55

One of the Longwell Greens certainly did run in service in orange – 5947 (347). I remember being surprised in the autumn of 1974 when, after having been the last one remaining in service for some time and I assumed due for early withdrawal(although many others had of course become trainers in orange)it reappeared in the then-new darker orange GMT livery. It then lasted until about October 1978 I think. These bodies may have been excellent but the two things I noticed about them was the finish inside, which wasn’t really up to the later East Lancs standard, no grab rails at the front upstairs for instance, and the extreme degree of body roll when cornering, again compared to the EL ones.

Michael Keeley

03/06/13 – 08:35

I feel that I must speak in favour of the Yorkshire Rider livery. It was bold but professional and very dignified in rich green and cream, and the prominent red fleetname with former districts’ identities was quite masterly – especially since the Company name and the livery had to be devised with indecent haste in the unbelievable confusion leading up to De-regulation Day in October 1986.

Chris Youhill

04/06/13 – 06:46

The Yorkshire Rider livery was bold and contemporary with out being overly so. It had more presence than the PTE livery and was a million times better than the First fading scheme and the current pale pastel which always reminds me of some wartime austerity livery. Although the use of local fleet names is a step in the right direction. But they need to make a bold statement with a strong livery.

Chris Hough

Oldham Corporation – Leyland Titan – PBU 943 – 443


Copyright Stephen Howarth

Oldham Corporation
1958
Leyland Titan PD2/30
Roe H37/28R

I have been having a rummage through a few pictures and came across this one. Whilst it is not the best photograph in the world, I am sure it is of historical interest.
The vehicle on the right is one of Oldham Corporations 1958 “Tin front” Titans fleet number 443, it was transferred to SELNEC on November 1969, and re-numbered 5343 in that fleet. In this photograph it is still in the Crimson and White lined out livery, which Oldham used until 1966, when replaced with Pommard and Devon Cream. It is photographed in Lever Street Manchester, (destination blinds showed Stephenson Square), operating the service 13 to Uppermill via Oldham and Scouthead. This service was a Limited Stop service operated jointly with Manchester Corporation Transport.
What is interesting with the photograph is that I caught a Maynes of Manchester AEC Regent operating on their service between Droylsden and Manchester Dale Street. Unfortunately the speed of the bus has made the registration unreadable, and there is no record on the rear of the photograph. But it looks like one of their AEC Regent V, with Park Royal H41/32R bodies.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Stephen Howarth

A full list of Titan codes can be seen here.

06/11/11 – 12:25

Aah, my favourite vehicle from my favourite batch of Oldham’s buses. These PD2s were superb inside and out, but sadly got more and more disfigured over the years with moquette seats replaced by vinyl ones and the original elaborately lined-out livery changing first to an unlined version, then pommard and cream and finally, for some, SELNEC’s orange and white.
443 escaped some of these treatments. As the batch were being worked through for re-certification when twelve years old the policy was changed so the earlier examples received orange and a five year ticket. 443 was done later and only got three years in total. To cut down on costs it wasn’t fully repainted but tidied up in pommard. This work was done at Stockport and as a consequence the original interior survived largely intact.
It survived a bit longer as it was used as a skid pan bus at Hyde Road for a while after withdrawal. I have a photo of it there carrying the grille (and therefore registration) off 442 – very confusing!
The Mayne’s bus will be on the Audenshaw to Dale Street service – the Droylsden service was numbered 46 and more significantly, ran to Stevenson Square, although both traversed this section of Lever Street. It can be identified as 6974 ND, a 1961 AEC Regent V 2D3RA with Park Royal H41/32R body of a particularly ugly design.
The photograph will have been taken just before quarter past the even hour, as that is when Oldham’s bus on the 13 left, the other bus after the odd hour being a Manchester one. North Western worked the opposite way round to Uppermill via Lees on the 14, then returning via Scouthead to Manchester as a 13.

David Beilby

06/11/11 – 17:03

A close colleague of the (A) Mayne’s bus is already on this site at this link. Doesn’t it look like a Bridgemaster – & the height is not all perspective, has it – no dome?

Joe

07/11/11 – 07:39

It’s exactly the same as the second Bridgemaster body – except, obviously, for the height. If you mean does it have a flat roof profile, the answer is yes.

David Oldfield

07/11/11 – 07:40

As David B said, the Park Royal bodies on that batch of Maynes Regent Vs were particularly ugly, and they were the last ones bought before Maynes switched to East Lancs. As an enthusiast I have always liked to think there is a connection between those two facts, but I have no evidence for this.

Peter Williamson

07/11/11 – 12:11

Well the East Lancs bodies were a distinct improvement aesthetically – but were they East Lancs or Neepsend?

David Oldfield

08/11/11 – 06:40

I agree with David Beilby, these Oldham PD2’s always exuded an air of quality with their comfortable interiors and lined out livery. I rode on them regularly on the 9 (Rochdale-Oldham-Ashton) and 24/90 (Rochdale- Manchester) routes. On the 90 Limited Stop service which ran non-stop from Royton into Manchester they could turn in a fair pace along Broadway if they got the many sets of traffic lights in their favour.
Regarding the ugly Park Royal bodies on the Maynes AEC, I did once read somewhere that Southampton turned away from Park Royal and moved to East Lancs after being very unimpressed with the abominations Park Royal inflicted on them on both Leyland PD2 and AEC Regent V chassis using the Bridgemaster derived design. I don’t know if this was true or even if operators cared about the appearance of their buses from a design point of view. Perhaps some did.

Philip Halstead

08/11/11 – 10:45

Well Philip, they certainly forsook the same PRV abominations for East Lancs/Neepsend – whatever the reason. [Swindon, Yorkshire Traction and Yorkshire Woolen also had versions – the latter two by Roe – not to mention the first ACV Atlanteans, again built by Roe.]

David Oldfield

10/11/11 – 07:37

Similar very ugly Park Royal bodies were bought on a batch of PD2s by Southampton. These seemed incredibly top heavy due to their short length.

Chris Hough

10/11/11 – 07:38

I am sure that the Southampton story is true. Possibly not all, but certainly many municipal General Managers had definite ideas about the standards of vehicle design and appearance. Inevitably, the name of Geoff Hilditch springs to mind, but he was by no means alone in holding such views, and the municipal GMs held regular get togethers at which opinions were frankly exchanged. I have some Southampton pictures that I will submit in due course.

Roger Cox

10/11/11 – 07:39

To answer David’s question, Maynes had two Regent Vs bodied by East Lancs in 1964 and three by Neepsend in 1965.

Peter Williamson

10/11/11 – 17:02

Thanks, Peter

David Oldfield

20/12/11 – 06:40

I too agree with David Beilby’s comments about the Leyland/Roe Titans 429-452. I remember riding on them to and from college/Oldham Music Centre, on the 9 (409) bus route (437,443 and 449) in the mid 1960’s when they still carried their original livery. Around 1964/5 I recollect seeing a few examples on our route (B, Fitton Hill-Middleton Junction), and off their usual routes. It was the elaborate lined livery which caught my eye, as the usual buses on this route were unlined by that time or indeed like Leylands 388-407 and 413-418 (NBU 488-507 and NBU 513-518), never had been. I used to take notes of the bus numbers over a period of twelve months in 1964/5. I rode on 432,433,438,446,447,448,451 and 452 – to and from school in Fitton Hill. Since they were used primarily on the trunk routes I couldn’t understand why; even so, with their increased seating capacity of 65 they were a welcome sight. By this time they were looking tired (435,440 and 452 particularly so) and before long a simplified livery was applied-what a disappointment!
By mid July 1966 they were introduced to our route in number, having been cascaded from the trunk routes when the Leyland Atlantean invasion gained ground.

D. Butterworth

Oldham Corporation – Leyland Titan – PBU 951 – 451


Copyright David Butterworth

Oldham Corporation
1958
Leyland Titan PD2/30
Roe H35/28R

I Would like to contribute the above photo of Oldham Corporation 451 taken after its first repaint – so minus the waistrail white stripe and the intricate lining out (abandoned when these vehicles were repainted in 1965). The interior paintwork was changed also from the original hammered metal finish to a plain cream finish on the majority of the buses.
The first example of this batch to receive a repaint was 439, in January 1965, after substantial repairs following a serious front end collision the previous summer, when it had ploughed into a terraced house on Manchester Road whilst operating on route 98. The Oldham Chronicle carried a story with a photo of 439 embedded in the house with its crumpled bodywork surrounded a pile of bricks. No one was injured apparently.
I well remember riding on it from school to home one evening in January 1965 on the B (later 21) route.

Photograph and Copy contributed by David Butterworth

A full list of Titan codes can be seen here.

23/01/12 – 07:52

These buses were a great favourite of mine. The Roe bodies were very well appointed and in the original livery with the red lining out they looked very classy. I rode on them frequently on the 9 route from Rochdale travelling to Watersheddings to watch the rugby. They were extremely comfortable and smooth riding. Oldham had a good team in those days and invariably beat Rochdale Hornets in the local derbies.
I agree the buses lost a bit of their class in the simplified livery, initially retaining the original maroon to be replaced later by the Pommard and Cream livery which Oldham adopted up to absorption into SELNEC. I understand there were problems with the maroon fading which led to the ultimate change to the purpley red shade of Pommard. Like most of the Manchester area half-cabs they didn’t look too good in the SELNEC orange and white.
They had a fair turn of speed and were much faster than Rochdale’s Gardner engined Regent V’s which often operated the Rochdale share of the 9 route which was jointly operated by Ashton, Oldham and Rochdale Corporations.
They also worked on the 24/90 Limited Stop service between Rochdale and Manchester where they could show their paces to good effect, particularly on the 90 which ran non-stop between Royton and Manchester.
The Roe bodied examples of Oldham’s large fleet of PD2’s always seemed to be a cut above the Northern Counties and Crossley bodied examples and there was definitely no contest with the Metro-Cammell Orions which were positively spartan by comparison.
The photo also shows us that Oldham was among the small band of operators that used route letters for some of their services. To set the hare running I can bring to mind others as Middlesbrough, Portsmouth and Exeter. I am sure someone will soon add some more!

Philip Halstead

23/01/12 – 10:15

Yorkshire Woollen District used route letters on their Dewsbury area tram replacement services.

John Stringer

24/01/12 – 05:57

Lettered bus routes sometimes came about when the bus routes came along in conjunction with the trams. The trams had the numbers, so the buses got the letters.
I’m intrigued about a reverse situation with Cheltenham, which always had route numbers, tram and bus, but, at some point, in recent years, changed over to letters.
Bizarre!

Chris Hebbron

24/01/12 – 15:45

Mexborough and Swinton used route letters until the trolleybuses were phased out in March, 1961, at which time they switched over to numbers.
Rotherham Corporation ran jointly on the trolleybus routes to Mexborough and Conisborough, the Rotherham saloons showing either 8 or 9, and the Mexboro’ Sunbeams ‘A’ or ‘B’ respectively, until the changeover.

Dave Careless

24/01/12 – 15:46

I seem to remember (from 1956) that Great Yarmouth had a mix of lettered and numbered routes. I think all the lettered ones went to Gorlestone, but not all Gorlestone services were lettered ones. I have the distinct memory that route 3 started from Newtown on the northern edge of Yarmouth, and terminated at “Gorlestone (Green Ace)” – presumably a hostelry!

Stephen Ford

25/01/12 – 13:14

Middlesbrough Corporation also used route letters. Teesside Municipal Transport carried on this tradition for a number of years.

Stephen Bloomfield

20/02/12 – 13:38

Cheltenham switched to letters in the late 1980s when the Gloucester and Swindon operation was separated from Bristol. Both Gloucester and Cheltenham started minibus operations under the Metro name, and to avoid confusion Gloucester went for numbered routes and Cheltenham went for lettered. The one Cheltenham town route that kept a number for a while longer was the Prestbury-town-Coronation Square route 2 (which had full sized buses), but that eventually became the A.

James McLaren

20/02/12 – 17:12

Thx, James, for the answer to my question. A strange decision, really, since that neither towns’ local services ever strayed beyond their boundaries before or after minibuses came along. Still, it makes for variety. Does anyone know of any other bus companies currently using lettered routes?

Chris Hebbron

21/02/12 – 07:15

The Hebden Bridge local services supported by Metro and operated by Tyrer Tours use letters A – E. These were introduced in 2003 when First commenced operating the revised services with Optare Solos and Aleros supplied by Metro.

Ian Wild

21/02/12 – 07:18

Stagecoach Devon’s Exeter city services are still designated by letters, and it seems that to a large extent they are the initial letters of the suburbs to which they run – e.g. P – Pennsylvania; A – Alphington.

Stephen Ford

12/01/13 – 16:15

Try Preston corporation buses. Fp was Farringdon Park and there would have been others.

Andrew

Jersey Motor Transport – Leyland Titan – J 16522 – 21


Copyright Stephen Howarth

Jersey Motor Transport
1955
Leyland Titan PD2/22
Metro Cammell H31/26R

When Leyland Motors finished building bus bodies, the Jersey Motor Transport Company went to M.C.W. for their next double deck bodies. Two were bought in 1955, the other being J 16521, fleet number 20. They were the first Double Decker’s in the fleet with ‘Tin Fronts’ and Lightweight bodies. It was reported that the seats were hard, and the bodywork rattled. But the Drivers liked them because they were nippy vehicles.
They served in the fleet for 16 years, being withdrawn in 1971, when Bob Lewis, from Trimdon Motor Services bought the J.M.T., and brought in more saloons, and gradually replaced Double Decker’s and Conductors. He also repainted the fleet in to a Blue livery getting rid of the Green/Cream used for many years. This was so vehicles could be moved between Trimdon and St Helier without repaint. J 16522 No 21 is seen here at the Corbiere Terminus of Route 12.  Incidentally both vehicles 20 and 21 were actually scrapped on the island of Jersey. 
In this photograph the Driver has changed the blind to St Helier, but the Conductor has yet to change the platform blind from Corbiere.
The advert is for Jersey’s Famous Beer ‘MARY ANN’ which has been Jersey’s local brew for over the last 100 years. Most of JMT buses through out the years carried an advert for ‘MARY ANN’ in one form or another. The building in the back ground is the old Corbiere Terminus Station (it is now a private residence) of the Jersey Railways & Tramways Limited, this company taking over the assets of the Jersey Railway Company Limited on 1st February 1896. The extension from St Aubin’s (the original terminus) to Corbiere being opened in 1899. The whole railway shut, after a fire broke out in St Aubin’s Station in the early hours of 18th October 1936, when the station buildings were badly damaged and 16 of the best carriages were destroyed.

Photograph and Copy contributed by Stephen Howarth

A full list of Titan codes can be seen here.

14/02/12 – 07:51

This is another example of the much maligned Orion design looking quite attractive. This is helped by the layout of the livery, a style which suited the Orion very well. The ones at Brighton which had the same livery layout but red instead of green always looked attractive to me.
I always thought JMT was owned by the Jersey Government and had no idea it was bought by Trimdon Motor Services. That seems a strange commitment for a relatively small North East based independent. My former employers did some construction work in Jersey (nothing to do with transport) and found it a difficult place to operate. Shall we just say there were a lot of ‘vested interests’!

Philip Halstead

14/02/12 – 07:53

The Orion body was not the most attractive of designs and adding it to the tin front ‘Midland Red’ Leyland chassis did it no favours. Mix that with a 7’6″ wide chassis as in the case of JMT 21 and the result is positively undesirable, in my opinion. It looks narrow and top heavy, and that is from a side view!
Having said that the Orion body could be made to look quite reasonable if painted in a smart livery with lining out, for example, Halifax, Bradford or West Bromwich.
Equally, the BMMO style tin front Titan could be made to look quite attractive if it was fitted with a good looking body and smart livery, such as the Roe bodied Sheffield PD3’s shown in the previous posting. Perhaps a smart livery and body style draws the eye away from the plain BMMO style Leyland front. Who knows, beauty is in the eye of the beholder!

Eric

14/02/12 – 08:50

Know what you mean, Eric. I generally prefer exposed radiator PD3s – especially the Stockport’s. Sheffield’s tin fronts, however, do work.
As Charles Roe’s biggest fan, how is this for a variation on a theme (of livery improving an Orion)? Of all the many variations on offer, I found the worst looking one to be the front entrance PD3 – with several Doncaster operators, including the Corporation. Over the Pennines in Oldham (HQ of the Roe appreciation society?) their last traditional buses were front engined Roe/PD3s – which looked superb in their smart livery. So it can work both ways!

David Oldfield

14/02/12 – 11:27

Newcastle Transport had some very similar ‘tin front’ Orion PD2’s but Tyneside’s were the exposed radiator type, whilst the rest of the Northern groups Orions were Guy Arab’s They were all what could be best described as ‘cheap and chatty’ on the upper deck, with single skins and exposed frame’s, hence all the knocks bangs rattles and squeaks, but to be fair to the later PD3’s, although apart from being longer they looked very much the same from the outside, they were an entirely different beast inside, with double skins and sound proofing.

Ronnie Hoye

14/02/12 – 16:29

I should have mentioned in my original description that there is a Society devoted to the Channel Islands Bus scene.
This is the Channel Islands Bus Society.
Details can be obtained (please enclose a SAE), from
Dr Jim Young, 67 Boston Avenue, Southend on Sea, Essex, SS2 6JH.
Newsletters are published in Spring, Summer, Autumn, and Winter. Subscriptions are £14 per year for UK and CI residents or £17 for other EU countries.

Stephen Howarth

14/02/12 – 16:31

The demise of the Leyland bus-body building activities 1954 was a great loss to the bus industry. The alternatives such as the MCW Orion body must have been a great disappointment yet this style of body started a trend by other body builders such as Park Royal and Roe who attempted to copy and go lightweight.
However a good livery such as on the JMT Leyland does improve matters a little but inside comforts and appearances such as front dome of rough fibre-glass make me wonder how Weymann and MCCW could change from their previous classical and quality bodywork finishes.
My first view of a MCW Orion body was Yorkshire Woollen Leyland PD1 in overall red livery in Leeds in 1955, which was a shock to my senses.
Fortunately some operators such as Liverpool CT demanded a better specification and MCW gradually changed and improved their designs in the sixties.

Richard Fieldhouse

10/04/12 – 06:24

I wasn’t keen on the Leyland tin front either and another Orion/Tin front combination which looked awful was a batch of PD2s delivered to Bolton which had the full front design, also used by Blackpool.

David Pomfret

11/04/12 – 06:05

Regarding the comment by Mr Fieldhouse regarding the Yorkshire Woollen bus he saw just to set the record straight this was not a PD1 these buses were rebodied Leyland PS1s. Their Orion bodies were actually lighter than their original Brush single deck bodies. They were always called Cans or Salmon Cans by us enthusiasts. My wife used to conduct on them and she always said they were very cold in winter possibly because they had no internal lining panels to keep the weight down.

Philip Carlton

11/04/12 – 15:35

Edinburgh bought many MCW bodied PD2s with tin fronts for tram replacement. This lead a councillor to comment on them by calling them Monstrous masses of shivering tin the only modern thing about them is their approximation of rock and roll when moving! Edinburgh liked the Leyland tin front so much they retro fitted it to some exposed radiator PD2s and also some rebuilt Guys. They also continued to fit it to new deliveries until 1966 long after the St Helens version superceded the original. In the end they built their own fibre glass version in house.

Chris Hough

22/04/12 – 16:13

Nice to see a picture of JMT 21 taken when new at the Corbiere terminus Route 12. I have seen a pre-delivery shot of the sister J16521 but not 21 new.
Does the copyright owner have any other pictures of any other vehicle in Jersey at this time? I have a good collection of Jersey photos both pre and post war, but I am always looking to add to my collection.

John Luce