Photographer unknown – if you took this photo please go to the copyright page.
London Transport 1964 AEC-Park Royal Routemaster Park Royal H28/36R
Here is a nice action shot of a standard Routemaster, and it’s probable out accelerating the mini next to it. This particular vehicle had the Leyland O600 9.8 litre diesel engine and it would of had a throatier sound than the AEC engine. This was due to the fact that London Transport did not use air filters for some reason and it was the air entering the Leyland engine rather than the exhaust that produced the throaty sound. If memory serves me correct I think the London Transport practice of not fitting air filters meant that the RT had that lower bonnet line than the Provincial Regent. The main reason for posting this shot is I visited Southport recently and found an excellent second hand bookshop that had a good selection of bus books and was lucky enough to get a copy of “Blue Triangle” by Alan Townsin. One thing I noticed in the chapter for the Routemaster was that the prototypes had the radiator and fan positioned under the floor behind the engine bay. This explains how the first RM prototype achieved engine cooling when having no radiator just a solid panel with a London underground type logo on it, I have searched high and low for a shot on the internet to no avail I’m afraid. But fortunately by the time the first production model RM 8 appeared in 1958 the radiator and fan had been moved back to the normal position in front of the engine. This meant that the bonnet length had to be increased by 4 inch though to accommodate them and the good looking Routemaster that we all know came to be.
A full list of Routemaster codes can be seen here.
Bus tickets issued by this operator can be viewed here.
Photograph taken by Colin Tait in 1955
Here is a photo of RM1 SLT 56 with the solid front plate and bullseye motif, it’s worth observing that this prototype had no opening windows in the upstairs front. Photograph courtesy of the London Transport Museum.
Chris Hebbron
The final design was far more balanced, and arguably more attractive, than the original. There was an interim design of grille which had the LT bulls-eye on the round protuberance (just visible above the grille in the first photograph) and no “AEC” triangle at the top of the grille divider. The final version (shown) had the LT bulls-eye but not the letters “AEC” on a triangle in the usual place. There were, over a period of time, variations in the depth of the ventilation grille beneath the destination/route number indicators. (RM 1 is shown with standard route indicators – which it did not carry originally).
David Oldfield
Your comment about the throaty sound of the Leyland-engined RMs brought back fond memories of riding on one or two of them while I was on a week-long course at CAV in Acton in the early 80’s. The induction roar was absolutely gorgeous, and all the more audible as you say, due to the lack of an air filter. West Yorkshire Road Car had some Bristol RELH coaches (ECW and Plaxton bodies) fitted with 0.680 Leyland engines, which always sounded grand on the road. However, they had a similar induction roar when being tested on WY’s dynamometers at Central Works, as they were tested without air filters. I used to love running such engines in, and then fully bench-testing them on the dynamometers after overhaul. It was lovely (and quite addictive) to hear that roar – even with ear protectors on! The Routemasters had a lovely ‘song’ whether AEC or Leyland powered, as the accompanying melody from the transmission was so gentle and tuneful. Sadly, the tune went off somewhat when they were re-engined and re-gearboxed later in life, but at least it kept them running. P.S. Does anyone else think that someone has lost the plot somewhere with the ‘Borismaster’?
Brendan Smith
Simple answer – “Yes” I drove for Reading Mainline on a casual basis. Everyone knows I’m an A(mbassador) for E(xcellent) C(oaches) – and buses – but our two “Leyland” Routemasters were great fun and didn’t half shift (especially up – and down – Norcot Hill).
David Oldfield
22/04/12 – 07:34
Brendan, I’m so glad someone else is clearly so addicted to the Routemaster “melody”. I fell in love with the Routemaster sound as a young lad and, some 40 years later, I am still totally absorbed by the unique harmonies of the engine (has to be AEC or Leyland) and the various parts of the transmission.
Mike Wakeford
22/04/12 – 16:10
What engines were used to re-engine the RM’s? I understood at one time that they were Italian, but would like to know if this was so.
Chris Hebbron
23/04/12 – 05:44
Chris, some of the power units used to re-engine the Routemasters were indeed Italian, these being of Iveco manufacture. Iveco is owned by FIAT, but I seem to recall it collaborated with Magirus and Ford to produce a range of commercial vehicles in the 1980s/90s. (The Ford/Iveco EuroCargo truck springs to mind). Other engines were also fitted to the Routemasters in later life, notably by Cummins and Scania. It was rumoured that Ken Livingston had planned to have the original Routemaster engines replaced with Gardner units at one point, as they had an excellent reliability record, were very economical, and were of British manufacture. The cost of the programme was said to have been too great however, given the perceived extended lifespan of the RMs/RMLs at the time, and so mass-produced engines were used instead. One also wonders if Gardner would have been able to fulfil an order for over 500 engines in time. Their engines were all hand-built from start to finish, and as well as building bespoke engines for the automotive industry, Gardner also built engines (plus gearboxes and pumps) for marine use. Therefore it would probably have been difficult to increase production simply by speeding up the various processes, or transferring production from marine to automotive. Such a shame though that we were cheated out of hearing the sounds of a ‘Gardner Routemaster’. I’m sure Mike and I would have found such a gentle beast just as delightful to the ear as the original AEC and Leyland-powered ones had been.
Brendan Smith
23/04/12 – 05:45
Chris. Three different engines were originally tried out and used to re-engine RMs. Cummins C (ie 8.3 Dennis Javelin), Scania DS 9 and IVECO 7.7. There was at least one DAF tried as well. The majority were Cummins, minority Scania, IVECO somewhere in the middle. IVECO is Italian (FIAT), but most of their PSV output is made in Spain. Later re-engines (like the “Heritage” RMs in Central London) have the Cummins B (5.9) as in the Dennis Dart and are know – less than affectionately – as Dartmasters. The well preserved RML that I drive regularly has the IVECO engine – not a patch on the AEC or Leyland originals.
David Oldfield
23/04/12 – 05:46
I heard they (or some of them) were “Fix It Again Tomorrow’s.”
The Northern General Transport Company 1964 AEC-Park Royal Routemaster Park Royal H41/31F
Pictured at the Seaburn Bus Rally, this 1964 Routemaster has been beautifully restored to its original livery and is now part of the North East Bus Preservation Trust Ltd collection; it was one of the second batch to be delivered. I know the two batches differed slightly, but I’m not sure if it was only that the first ones had rear wheel spats. Prior to the Routmasters, the last front engine half cabs to carry the Northern name were the 1958 PD3’s with Orion bodies ‘Sunderland District’s were rear door Burlingham bodies’ before the Routemasters arrived on the scene their were then three or possibly four batches of PDR1 Atlanteans with both MCW and Roe bodies. Northern ran a lot of longer routes alongside United, when they introduced the front entrance Bristol Lodekkas Northern decided it was time to replace the rear door Park Royal bodied PD2’s on these routes with a more modern vehicle, but rather than use Atlanteans they bought the Routemasters specifically for the purpose. I think reliability may have been a factor as the early Atlanteans were ‘A tad temperamental’ Northern specified the Leyland O600 engine and the same gearing as the Green Line RMC’s, as far as I’m aware they gave excellent service and reliability was never a problem. Our depot didn’t have any so I must be one of the few drivers at Percy Main to have driven one on service, I was on the number 1 which ran between Whitley Bay and Lobbly Hill Gateshead, my bus ‘an Atlantean’ broke down at Team Valley and a replacement was sent out from Bensham depot, it turned out to be a Routemaster. I only drove it for a couple of hours but found it a very nice vehicle to drive.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Ronnie Hoye
13/05/12 – 08:41
…..and I spent many a happy hour driving AEC and Leyland engined ex LT RMs in Reading for Reading Mainline. I now have the occasional charge of a preserved green RML. Still nice to drive but unfortunately, like most RMLs, re-engined.
David Oldfield
13/05/12 – 18:49
What make was/were the replacement engine(s) and did the conversion entail any gearbox/transmission changes, David? In the back of my mind, Iveco comes to mind.
Chris Hebbron
14/05/12 – 07:43
There several experiments using Cummins C (Javelin 8.2), Scania (9.2), DAF (?) and IVECO (7) engines. DAF never got beyond the one experimental, the others went into “mass” production. I don’t know the numbers, nor how it was decided to allocate which engines to which (batches of) vehicles. These vehicles tended to keep their AEC/LT (semi)automatic gear-change. The vehicle I regularly drive – and will be doing so next week in Slough – is a 1966 RML with IVECO engine with original gearbox which still operates in either semi or fully automatic modes. From the cab it is very obviously a re-engine although, surprisingly, from the saloon it sounds more like a “proper” vehicle. I can only surmise that this is because it still has the original gearbox. It does not, however, have the performance of an AV590 or 0.600 – nor the real sound. The last refurbishments, however, were also made to comply with “Euro…” regulations and have the Cummins B (5.9) engine and Allison fully automatic gearbox both found on the Dennis Dart. They are therefore cruelly, but aptly, known as “Dartmasters”. The latter have also totally changed the character of the cab.
David Oldfield
14/05/12 – 09:29
Thanks, David, for that interesting background information. It’s also interesting that the original engines performed better than their replacements. Maybe some of it is strapping the engines up with ‘save the world’ technology, understandable, but not conducive to performance or fuel consumption!
Chris Hebbron
14/05/12 – 14:57
As a P.S. to my comments above. It’s all speculation, but given the reputation for build quality and reliability that the Routemaster built up with Northern, I think it’s safe to assume that if the RML had gone into production AEC would have loaned a couple to Northern for evaluation purposes, then who knows?
Ronnie Hoye
14/05/12 – 18:30
Ronnie; do you mean RML or FRM? The Northerns were front entrance RMLs (or RMFs in London language). FRM1 was the rear-engined prototype which Leyland knocked on the head because it competed with its own new Atlantean. There should have been three prototype FRMs – one of the other in Sheffield Transport colours. Alan Townsin said that both Yorkshire Traction and Northern General had already shown an interest in the new model “off the drawing board”. Having tested it for “Bus and Coach” in August 1967 he concluded that “…..the general impression was of a vehicle which made everything previous seem out of date, in much the same way as the RT in its day.”
David Oldfield
14/05/12 – 18:46
It’s an age thing David, I did mean the RMF
Ronnie Hoye
15/05/12 – 07:34
It’s an age thing for most of us who use this site! What day is it nurse?
David Oldfield
15/05/12 – 07:36
I wish I’d been issued with fingers instead of thumbs, FRM, the one that Leyland couldn’t wait to kill off, in much the same way that they did with the Fleetline, as the Americans say ‘if you can’t beat them, buy them’
Ronnie Hoye
15/05/12 – 07:38
Chris, can I just point out that David’s comment about the performance of replacement engines was specific to IVECO, which was the smallest of the units in the original experiment. I recently had a ride on an RM with a Scania engine and it went like a bat out of hell! It also made some nice traditional sounds which were entirely compatible with the RM’s transmission. As regards FRM1, this still exists of course, and it is very special. I once had the pleasure of riding on it, and it felt like meeting the Queen!
Peter Williamson
15/05/12 – 13:31
Very interesting comments, David, on the FRM. I never saw the ‘Bus and Coach’ article, (yes, I ought to have seen it!), and have never seen any pictures of the prototypes, but it sounds as if it had great potential. Leyland, as Ronnie points out, were eager to kill off anything that competed with a Leyland product. Operationally, the Fleetline was a far better bet than early Atlanteans, being more economical and less expensive to maintain, and it would have been a boon to the industry to have had an AEC alternative, too. Leyland’s arrogance, which manifested itself in many ways at that time, was a tragedy for the whole of the British motor industry.
Roy Burke
15/05/12 – 18:00
There were other interesting possibilities which Leyland killed at birth. The only really decent and successful rear-engined single-decker was the Bristol RE. It eventually had the option of Leyland engines (which I approve of) but another option “on the books” which was neither promoted nor taken up was of the AH691 AEC engine. Ulsterbus (and all offshoots) had shown a great interest in the AEC option but were dissuaded by Leyland from taking it up – just as later, New Zealand were “persuaded” to take the Leyland 510.
David Oldfield
16/05/12 – 07:47
In some ways fitting a Scania engine into a Routemaster is the supreme irony. The Routemaster started life with AEC, they in turn became part of British Leyland ‘not to be confused with Leyland Motors’ At the time of the ‘merger’ AEC had designs for a new vehicle, but BL in their wisdom or otherwise decided not to go ahead with it, all the plans ‘including those for a new engine’ were sold to Saab and the result was the 80 and 100 series and every vehicle since, so I suppose you could argue that by using an AEC designed Scania engine in a Routemaster the wheel has in effect turned full circle
Ronnie Hoye
22/09/13 – 07:51
Regarding the allocation of re-engined Routemasters in London, the rough rule was by operating group: South London and London General got Iveco re-engines and everywhere else got Cummins. The reasoning was, the DMS buses also had Iveco engines at these garages. I used to like the Routemasters on the 130 from Newcastle to Sunderland as a boy.
Mick
22/09/13 – 14:35
When were the last of these vehicles withdrawn and what happened to them afterwards?
Chris Hebbron
23/09/13 – 05:57
The answer to the first question is that Northern last used them in service on 16th December 1980. Someone else will have to answer the second bit!
Dave Towers
25/09/13 – 18:18
I have a Classic Bus magazine from 1994. The article must have been about the late 1950s, when they were in the process of creating the Atlantean. In it were clear, side by side pictures of the two prototype Leyland’s running on a route for evaluation by a bus company. One had the engine in front of the front axle, with a front wheel drive. It made the steering very heavy & would tilt up without the conductor on the rear platform. During tests they always made sure they had a conductor on. The other type had the engine on the rear platform & a full front. There is also a rear view picture of a top secret third type, which from memory only got to the test track at night, but was later broken up & the parts used on a conventional layout. If anyone would like further information I will read it again for more accuracy. If anyone would like the magazine, you can have it, for postage costs only.
Andy Fisher
26/09/13 – 06:30
I drove a Routemaster just once, at an LT Open Day – OK I paid a few circuits “on” so had a few laps. Compared to the PD3 on which I did my PSV training the Routemaster felt like a real driver’s bus – everything light to the touch and set up just right, although the horizontal gear-selection gate felt odd to start with. However, I’d take a PD2/3 over a Lodekka anytime – for me the Lodekka’s driving position, with that raked steering-wheel, was just uncomfortable/awful.
Philip Rushworth
26/09/13 – 14:53
Philip, don’t forget that the horizontal gear-selection gate was probably specified to replicate the pre-selector used on the many thousands of RTs with which all LT drivers would have been familiar (to say nothing of the many municipalities who operated pre-selector Regents).
Stephen Ford
26/09/13 – 14:53
The disposal details of all 50 Northern General Routemasters (2085-2134) are to be found at www.countrybus.org/RMF/RMFa.html This site, Ian’s Bus Stop, has full life histories for most London Tansport classes and closely related classes, e.g. London Country Leyland Nationals. Well worth a visit.
Dave Farrier
28/09/13 – 16:14
Thx, Dave F.
Chris Hebbron
01/10/13 – 06:30
Whilst on the subject of the Routemaster, has anyone seen a photo of the Chinese Youtong-built vehicle destined for Macedonia, designed with more than a nod at London’s Transport’s ubiquitous product! (Copyright unknown).
Chris Hebbron
01/10/13 – 10:45
Oh – if only Colin Curtis could see this!!!!!
Michael Hampton
01/10/13 – 17:46
The Youtong vehicles were ordered as an up to date version of the buses that Skopje took second hand from LT in the early 1960s. Those of course were RTs but they have always been regarded as something special in the minds of the citizens and, obviously, the authorities. As they didn’t buy any second hand Routemasters at the time LT were withdrawing them, the new vehicles can probably be regarded as competing with the Borisbus in terms of using old shapes and ideas in a modern format. Neither would win a beauty contest but both are at least interesting and controversial. Just a pity that no British manufacturer could cater for Skopje’s needs.
Phil Blinkhorn
01/10/13 – 17:47
Yes, he only missed out on the news by a few months.
Chris Hebbron
01/10/13 – 17:48
Is this going straight into the Uglibus section?
Joe
26/10/13 – 17:11
I was very interested in your section on Routemasters, particularly in the Tyne and Wear, County Durham areas 1970’s. One of your correspondents notes the 130 route, Newcastle to Sunderland. I can remember this being route 40 prior to 13O and continuing to Hartlepool or Middlesbrough. I am interested in obtaining any further info on this. I am also keen to bring back some more memories of routes south of the Tyne from this period and can recall a lot of them but would like to see a list. Do you have any idea where I can access such detail?
Dave Alcock
27/10/13 – 16:12
The 40 was a rather hybrid route, dating historically to the owners of various parts of it before ‘grouping’. From the thirties until NBC days it was really two overlapping routes; United’s 40 ran from Middlesbrough to Sunderland via West Hartlepool, and that of Northern / SDO ran from West Hartlepoool to Newcastle via Sunderland. The overlapping section was a joint operation, with all of the companies running journeys from West Hartlepool to Sunderland to give a more frequent headway. The United / Northern territorial boundary was at Easington Village, where passengers had to rebook, and United would run further short workings within their section, as well as frequent duplicates to fit in with mining shift times. In the same way Northern had short workings between Newcastle and Sunderland. The United timetable only showed the Newcastle journeys as brief details, and the Northern timetable ignored the Middlesbrough section altogether (indeed anyone travelling from Sunderland to Middlesbrough would have found the Durham District routes D1 / D2 to be quicker.
David Todd
31/12/13 – 07:20
It’s great reading all your comments,I was a conductor on the trollybusses in NW London 1958-1961 then went onto the RMs we changed overnight. The RM was a wonderful bus but in those early days some of them were experimental. We had RM 1134 at Stonebridge Park and the first time I took it out as a driver I pulled into a bus stop applied the brakes which came on then went off I braked harder and was nearly thrown through the windscreen. Then we had different suspension Dunlopillow was one where after a short while the conductor was sick because the rear of the bus just kept bouncing up and down all day. All garages were told to drive the bus in different ways we were told to drive in automatic at all times, Cricklewood were told to drive in manual it was supposed to save on fuel, I found that when the bus was fully loaded in the rush hour because the gear change from 1st to 2nd was so quick you lost all power so I used to pull away in auto click into second manually gun it then back into top. I last drove an RM in 1965 when I left, I am now 72 and have the chance to climb back into that wonderful bus for one more run {only on the test track at Canvey Island Essex} but I am looking forward to it you never forget how to drive them.
Bix Curtis
24/04/18 – 06:47
Just to say in my opinion the last Routemasters front design was the best looking and handsome bus to this day. The bonnet, grill, lights etc., never seem to get dated. Anybody agree? A real Bus!
Chris Campbell
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
10/06/18 – 08:50
Can anyone help me with info for a model of a Northern Routemaster in yellow. Three were painted in yellow for Tyneside area operation but one carried ‘GATESHEAD’ fleetnames, the other 2 ‘Northern’. Can anyone tell me which one it was that carried ‘Gateshead’ please.
Rob
11/06/18 – 05:56
Whilst the undermentioned website lists all 50 Northern General Routemasters with photographs of each one (and in some cases a history of allocations, liveries etc) some vehicles have only the dates new, date renumbered and date sold. //www.northernroutemaster.co.uk/ There is a photograph of FPT 595C (Fleet number 2125 renumbered to 3109) in yellow but I can’t read the fleetname but it looks like Northern. On the SCT61 website there is a photograph of RCN 687 (Fleet number 2125 renumbered to 3109) in yellow with the Northern fleetname. On the Northern Routemaster website there is a note regarding this vehicle: ‘In August 1975 this was one of two Routemasters to receive a less striking version of the Newcastle PTE yellow livery’. Photo here: //www.sct61.org.uk/ng3071 Hope the above helps narrow down your quest I don’t know.
David Slater
23/06/18 – 06:51
These pictures of a Northern General Routemaster in a sorry state were taken in June 2014 at the yard of Carnell’s Coaches, Long Sutton , Lincolnshire. Carnell’s had previously gone into liquidation in November 2013, though the site still seemed to be in use, though access was not possible when I took the pictures. I cannot identify the actual bus because no number plate or fleet number can be seen. The destination blind shows “Eastbourne”, and “Hailsham” is also just visible, which might give some clue to its earlier operation and hence identity. I returned to the site again shortly after to take another look, but the vehicle had then gone.
London Transport 1960 AEC Routemaster 4/5RM5/4 Park Royal H36/28R
The 630 trolleybus route took over from the former South Metropolitan tramway that ran between West Croydon and Mitcham on 12 September 1937, and was extended northwards over ex LCC tramway routes to a destination that, on the vehicle blinds, rather indecisively declared itself to be “Nr. Willesden Junction”. It was actually about half a mile short of that point, and, many years later, the displayed destination was amended to “Harlesden”. The 630 trolleys ran speedily, quietly and reliably for 23 years, until the cheapness of diesel fuel against the price of electricity, coupled with the costs of overhead maintenance, spelt the doom of the trolleybus, not just in London, but nationwide. The 630 route fell victim to the diesel bus after operation on 19 July 1960, and brand new Routemasters on rebranded route 220 took over the following day. Here is RM 339, delivered to LT on 16 May 1960, approaching the West Croydon terminal point shortly after the introduction of the 220 route – the trolleybus overhead wires are still in situ. Today, the Croydon transport scene has changed beyond recognition, and route 220 no longer serves the town.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
23/10/16 – 13:37
As we know, hindsight is a exact science, and it was probably a mistake to get rid of trolleybuses. They were quick, clean and quiet, but they were restricted to where they could go by the overhead wires, they were capable of traveling short distances when disconnected, and had they been allowed to advance, its quite possible they would now be able to store energy and travel quite long distances when disconnected. They could use a pantograph instead of poles which could be dropped at the push of a button, thus allowing them to overtake each other, or go away from the wires altogether, and a single wire would probably be sufficient. Given the world we live in today, the biggest problem would probably be cable theft, or am I just being cynical?
Ronnie Hoye
23/10/16 – 13:37
I bet a lot of people wish the trolleybuses had stayed, given current concerns over pollution in towns, not to mention fluctuating fuel prices. They were quiet, comfortable and electricity could be generated in many different ways.
David Wragg
24/10/16 – 07:15
How would a trolley with pantograph and a single wire work without a return to earth. Surely a conducting strip rubbing on the road surface wouldn’t work.
John Lomas
24/10/16 – 07:16
I have seen photos of early trolleybuses, where the vehicle had a half-cab layout and even a representation of a radiator. Seeing this one under the wires, I wonder why I looked for the poles on the roof!
Pete Davies
24/10/16 – 07:18
And it’s a further irony that this section of road supports the overhead wires of the Croydon Tramlink. The wheel has turned full circle, but I do regret the passing of London’s fabulous trolleybus system.
Petras409
24/10/16 – 07:19
The 830 route reminds me of my having a girlfriend who lived in Croydon and I used to catch the last trolleybus across to Mitcham – they could do 60mph across the common, according to a driver, with a lot of shuddering! I’d then get a 118 to Morden and walk the last two miles home. It will cause no surprise to learn that the relationship was short-lived! We did go to the Majestic Cinema at Fair Green a couple of times. London’s trolleybuses were quite sophisticated, with regenerative braking and many had chassisless bodies, not repeated until the Routemaster. LTE had to pay a wayleave on each pole, unlike municipal operators. Also, much of the electrical infrastructure dated back to the trams and was worn out, as were the trolleybuses by the 1960’s. Electricity costs (already mentioned)and limited flexibility with route changes or new, expensive suburb extensions sealed their fate. However, to ride on them with their silence, amazing acceleration and hill-climbing ability was exhilarating!
Chris Hebbron
24/10/16 – 08:58
I think I’m right in saying that in the initial stages of design of the Routemaster there was the possibility of a trolleybus version being made.
David Chapman
24/10/16 – 10:28
John, I don’t know the ins and outs of how it would work, but I’m sure its not beyond the bounds of possibility. Remember, in 1969, the Americans sent a man to the Moon with less computer technology than there is in today’s mobile phones
Ronnie Hoye
24/10/16 – 13:22
Ah, Ronnie, you’re referring to what my son calls a camera that makes phone calls!
Pete Davies
25/10/16 – 06:41
I don’t think a pantograph would work as the big advantage of trolley poles was that if a trolleybus had broken down, all that had to be done was to lower the poles and following vehicles could then creep past it – there was that amount of leeway in the system. As a matter of interest, the very early and very short-lived Dundee system used buses with single trolleys, with the current being returned to the road surface using a trailing metal strip.
David Wragg
25/10/16 – 08:07
Never heard of that method before, David W. Why was the system shortlived; for being quirky or some other?
Chris Hebbron
25/10/16 – 14:00
The use of a single trolley pole with a return via the ground was used in the early days of trolleybuses when operators were testing them on existing tram routes. The trolleybus took the positive feed from the single overhead tram wire and used a skate running in the tram track for the negative return. I am pretty sure it was only ever used as a temporary measure under trial conditions.
Philip Halstead
25/10/16 – 14:01
This Dundee link shows picture of the first Dundee trolley which seems to have double poles/wires. www.dmoft.co.uk/2011/04
John Lomas
25/10/16 – 17:02
The system was short-lived because of the damage the trolleybus wheels inflicted on the poor road surfaces and the damage the road surfaces inflicted on the trolleybuses. As John L writes, the image he refers to does show twin trolley poles, but ‘British Trolleybus Systems’ by Messrs Joyce, King and Newman says that the trolleybuses used the existing tram overhead. The whole concept was seen as a feeder to the trams, not a replacement, giving the impression that once traffic built up or the city’s residential area expanded, the trolleybuses would be replaced by trams. The system operated from September 1912 to May 1914, so it was Britain’s first trolleybus system, and also the first to be abandoned.
David Wragg
26/10/16 – 06:16
David, perhaps the Dundee trolleybuses were the first to operate in Scotland, as the first trolleybuses to operate in the UK were those of the Bradford and Leeds Transport Departments in 1911. Both undertakings first operated their trolleybuses on 20th June 1911 on their respective inaugural runs, but whereas Leeds then continued to operate them in service from that date, Bradford’s entered public service a few days later on June 24th. The Bradford vehicles operated on a short route from Thornbury to Dudley Hill via Laisterdyke, and connected with the tram routes on Leeds Road and Wakefield Road at either end. Leeds decided to close its system in 1928, when the trolleybuses and electrical equipment were apparently in need of replacement. In contrast however, Bradford continued to expand its network over the years and operated trolleybuses very successfully until March 1972 – the system being the last to operate in the UK.
Brendan Smith
26/10/16 – 06:17
Birmingham used the Skate to travel between depots and their overhaul works probably at night I guess.
Patrtick Armstrong
26/10/16 – 06:19
Two of those Dundee trolleybuses went to Halifax for the Corporation’s only trolley route between Pellon and Wainstalls. They were joined by a new Tilling-Stevens machine, but the route operated only from 1921 until 1926, when trolleybuses were abandoned forever by Halifax. During those five years, the trolleys ran between Pellon and Skircoat Road depot by connecting the positive trolley boom to the tram overhead and dragging a metal skid in the tram track to give the negative return to earth.
Roger Cox
27/10/16 – 08:19
If you would like an idea of what a Routemaster trolleybus might have looked like go here www.britmodeller.com/forums/ to see one modeller’s ideas and how he developed the idea and the advice he received.
Phil Blinkhorn
02/11/16 – 05:55
In Ken Blackers book he does mention that the option of electric power was considered,although given that by this times sentence had been passed on the trolleybus. The trolleybus route 630 was intended to be worked from Thornton Heath and crews from there were provided with a staff bus whilst waiting for the wires to reach into Surrey which they unfortunately never did. Trolleybuses should be the environmental public transport vehicle of choice, cheaper and more flexible than Trams
Patrtick Armstrong
03/11/16 – 06:20
Not quite sure, Patrick, what you mean about “the wires reaching into Surrey which, unfortunately, they never did”. Croydon and Thornton Heath were in Surrey until 1973. Even Mitcham was, if I recall rightly.
Chris Hebbron
03/11/16 – 14:45
Here is another shot (rather less clear – it was taken in a heavy thunderstorm) of a Routemaster under the trolleybus wires at West Croydon. This is RM 334, taken into LT stock on 12 May 1960. If there ever was a project to make a trolleybus version of the Routemaster, it must have been abandoned early in the development programme, since the decision to abandon London’s trolleys was absolutely cast in stone by 1954, the year in which RM 1 appeared. On the subject of trolleybuses running in Surrey, parts of Croydon may well have been in the postal district of Surrey (some fell within the London SW postal area), but it was a self governing County Borough from 1889 until 1965 when it was incorporated into the GLC. Thus, trolleybuses never did run in the county of Surrey proper.
Roger Cox
04/11/16 – 06:16
With apologies to Chris H, he is right. Mitcham was a municipal borough in Surrey from 1915 to 1965, so yes, trolleybuses on route 630 did just enter the very northern tip of that county.
Roger Cox
06/11/16 – 09:52
That’s a lovely shot of RM334, Roger, ploughing through rain. I like evocative photos like this, as my recently-posted one of Morden Tube Station forecourt, in driving snow, testifies. Apologies graciously accepted about the 630 route going through Surrey! I had kept some of my powder dry to mention the Fulwell Depot trolley routes 601-605, some of them working their way through Kingston to Tolworth and Wimbledon. Kingston-upon-Thames was only a borough, albeit a Royal one (I’m on one knee as I type this)! I’m old enough to recall travelling from Raynes Park to Kingston/Hampton Court) on the ‘Diddlers’ that frequented the 604/605. Poor things, sound chassis but frail bodies, even when extensively rebuilt, they creaked their way around and were replaced none too soon. I’d hazard a guess that they were the most worn-out vehicles London Transport ran at that time, lasting from 1931 to 1948. But I digress (again)!
British European Airways 1967 AEC Routemaster Park Royal H32/24F
From 6 October 1957 until 1 January 1974, British European Airways operated a passenger transfer service between its West London Air Terminal at Cromwell Road, Kensington and Heathrow Airport. The rolling stock fleet was staffed and maintained by London Transport, and this was reflected in the vehicle types operated. By the 1960s, the increase in size of airliners meant that the BEA fleet of AEC Regal IV observation coaches of 1952/3 vintage were offering inadequate capacity, and were approaching replacement anyway. In 1961 an evaluation of the practicability of employing double deckers for the job was undertaken, initially using AEC Regent V, 220 CXK fitted with a Park Royal H38/17F body, the limited lower deck capacity arising from its adaptation to accommodate luggage in the rear portion. Between 1964-66, the 30 ft long front entrance Routemaster RM 1254 was tried out towing a separate luggage trailer, and this experiment was deemed to be successful. Thus, in 1966/67, BEA took delivery of 65 front entrance Routemasters of the shorter 27ft 8ins length with the slightly reduced seating of 56 to allow space for hand luggage at the rear of the lower deck. They had semi automatic gearboxes and AEC AV 590 engines, but were geared for 70 mph running with trailers on the M4 motorway, which would surely not be allowed today. Marshall constructed 88 luggage trailers so that the buses would not suffer luggage loading/unloading delays at the terminals. The Routemasters were delivered and initially operated in the traditional airline livery of blue and white, but, in 1969 the emerging distressing vogue for the use of orange in bus liveries gravely infected the BEA fleet. Mercifully, the merger of BEA and BOAC into British Airways in September 1973 saw the consignment of the execrable orange to oblivion with the restoration of a blue /white livery. The RMAs were progressively withdrawn from airport work from January 1975 until mid 1979, when the entire fleet of 65 was sold to London Transport, thereafter to suffer a curiously chequered, and somewhat wasteful career. In the photo taken at Heathrow in March 1972, orange adorned BEA 41, NMY 641E stands alongside BEA 32, NMY 632E. These vehicles were renumbered RMA 53 and 49 respectively on acquisition by London Transport in 1979. It is thought that both survive – somewhere!
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
06/09/17 – 07:00
Not one vestige of luxury abounded these vehicles – just a normal inside. Not the way to start an air flight, even with non-Transatlantic flights. Was there an equivalent BOAC system such as the one BEA operated here, or did one have to make one’s own way to Heathrow?
Chris Hebbron
06/09/17 – 09:19
BOAC operated some Metro-Cammell bodied Leyland Atlanteans during the 1960s between Buckingham Palace Road, London and Heathrow Airport. They were fitted with higher backed coach type seats more suitable to long-haul airline passengers. Photographs may be seen here: www.sct61.org.uk/zzlyf313d www.sct61.org.uk/zzlyf311d
David Slater
07/09/17 – 07:36
BOAC’s fleet pre-dated the Atlanteans and consisted of a fleet of single-deck vehicles, although I am not sure about the technical details. Unlike BEA, operations were not subcontracted to London Transport.
David Wragg
08/09/17 – 06:42
We have to remember the vogue for these colours in the 70’s- bright and striking and definitely non-traditional- a reaction against formal “liveries”. Having said that it was a bit dire! What does seem naff is the choice of vehicle- high floor with perhaps a noisy transmission and speeds for which it was not really designed- with trailer! A Neoplan Skyliner type would be better- but a lot dearer and less patriotic?! Was luggage checked in at the city terminal- so why not just use a van?
Joe
09/09/17 – 06:41
Here is a shot of one of the Routemasters at the west London Air Terminal in 1969 in the original livery: www.flickr.com/photos/ At the same time BEA was still using the one an a half deck AEC Regal IVs from London Transport. they were new in 1953 and had Park Royal bodies. BOAC also had their own fleet of vehicles which operated from their terminal close to Victoria Coach Station. In 1966 they acquired a fleet of Leyland Atlanteans with MCW bodies.
Stephen Bloomfield
09/09/17 – 06:42
Joe – I think you’ll find BOAC left Buckingham Palace Road in the early/mid 70s. My 1978 office looked out on to it and I can remember, at one point, it being used for South Western Services on peak days to relieve pressure on the Coach Station itself. In the days of much smaller coaches they were accommodated in the underground car park of the Coach Station but I feel we’re talking about an era far before Neoplans came on the scene with Trathens.
Nick Turner
10/09/17 – 06:38
Nick- the Skyliner is celebrating 50 years this year – would it have filled the bill?! So would the Atlantean or even Bristol VR but they weren’t Routemasters!
Joe
11/09/17 – 06:26
I bow to your knowledge, Joe, but I can recall when Trathens of Plymouth introduced them to their London – Exeter and Plymouth contract for the newly created ‘Rapide’ brand, they were billed as state of the art. Certainly new to the likes of me. They must have been in use elsewhere, I presume, but they’d certainly have done the job!
Nick Turner
11/09/17 – 06:28
The BEA Routemasters were fitted with AV690 175 bhp engines. In my opinion, these vehicles were the right ones for the job. They had well padded comfortable seats , superb suspension, were nimble and quiet (certainly no problem with transmission noise). They were also a reliable and proven design. The Atlantean may have looked better, but as a tool for the job, would have been inferior.
Allan White
11/09/17 – 06:32
I can vouch for the basic seating of these RM’s, plus also on the “smart” clippies that made a lot of money because arriving travellers had no sterling.
Stuart Emmet
11/09/17 – 09:07
Re: Joe’s question “Why not a van?” Surely using a trailer made it much more likely that the luggage got on the same plane as the passengers.
John Lomas
12/09/17 – 06:39
Why not a van? Why not? One summer, I drove for a major London Operator – a cruise transfer from Central London to the Liner at the coast. American Tourists with huge amounts of luggage. How will I fit it all in? Oh, don’t worry, there will be a van for that. ….. and there was, a big curtain sided vehicle just for the luggage.
David Oldfield
12/09/17 – 06:41
Nick, Although launched in 1967, the first right-hand drive UK versions were in service in 1981. Joe, Regarding a van: I was working in Cork in 1975 when the hotel was invaded by by a C.I.E. coach with 40+ American tourists doing the Irish heritage circuit. As they all had about 5 large suitcases, the coach was accompanied by a C.I.E. container wagon.
Dave Farrier
12/09/17 – 14:44
Regarding the trailer, it was seen as a simple, effective solution whereby passengers and luggage travelled together. Even in 1960s London traffic, a bus and a van could easily have become well separated and the essence of the operation was to check in passengers at Cromwell Rd and give a smooth transit at Heathrow for both passengers and luggage. Keeping them together was the key to this. The RM was chosen because BEA had long used LT as its contractor and the RM was its current vehicle just as the Regal was the basis for the half deck coaches and LT’s RF in the 1950s. The shorter version of the RM was chosen as BEA Tridents, Vanguards and 1-11s in service by the late 1960s had seating capacities between 100 and 135. Based on experience of the split between passengers checking in at the airport and those using Cromwell Rd, 56 seats was deemed to be the most viable option allowing room inside for hand baggage. Outbound to Heathrow vehicles were assigned to specific flights with the luggage in the trailers going directly to the aircraft. There were enough vehicles for duplicates if necessary, but in practice this was rare. Inbound passengers picked the first available bus and trailer as they had to pick their luggage in arrivals and, if necessary, clear customs, so it was impossible to keep passengers from any given flight together. Buses departed for London either when full or after a predetermined time after the first passenger had boarded so as not to delay arrival in Cromwell Rd. BOAC and TWA both successfully used Atlanteans with internal luggage space between city terminals in London and Heathrow. To say the Atlantean was inferior is a nonsense as BOAC re-ordered Atlanteans and TWA’s contract with Hall’s of Hounslow specified the Atlantean based on BOAC’s experience.
Phil Blinkhorn
13/09/17 – 06:34
As Allan White correctly states, these did have AV690 11.3 litre engines, though I suspect that they might have been de-rated a bit. This, however, raises an interesting point. If these powerful, very highly geared, fluid flywheel coupled double deckers could run regularly at high speeds without problems, why did the Halifax Lolines suffer such transmission trouble?
Roger Cox
14/09/17 – 06:53
Maybe something to do with the terrain
Roger Burdett
14/09/17 – 06:55
Forgive me for straying from the main subject to mention the problems with Halifax’s Lolines for a moment. A mechanic (and also an enthusiast) at Halifax Corporation with first hand experience of dealing with their five Lolines once wrote a piece in the local bus club’s newsletter (and I am taking the liberty of quoting him here): “The transmission was unusual in that there was a transfer box at the rear of the engine which altered the rotation of the propellor shaft and gearbox, but allowed the propellor shaft to run along the chassis side, thus permitting a low floor level. The Dennis mechanic from their Manchester service depot spent so much time at Skircoat Garage that it began to be said he was on the payroll. He was an odd fellow in that he would not show anyone how to do the job or even let them see him working. If an HPT mechanic passed near him he would stop work and cover the job up……………….. …………….Mounted at the back of the engine was the fluid flywheel coupling driving into the transfer box. A major fault on this was a lack of ventilation around the flywheel and transfer box for cooling purposes. So the flywheel got hot, then hotter and hotter still until the oil within it boiled, leaked through and spoiled the oil retaining seal. Alternatively the same might happen to the transfer box. Whichever it was, it was expensive – for Dennis Bros. anyway! The other main problem was the gearbox. Most gearboxes have the input and output shafts rotating the same way i.e. anticlockwise – the same as the engine – but the Lolines were different, they had to have non-standard clockwise rotating gearboxes which were almost impossible to obtain, as no-one else used them. The verdict? It was a love/hate relationship. When they were healthy (and new) most drivers (only short men could drive them comfortably) seemed to like them, but when they were poorly the Lolines were unloved (and unlovely). My opinion? Best left unrepeated!” I do remember being told his opinion – and it was indeed best left unrepeated! I knew many Halifax drivers who had driven them and most agreed that as long as they were going they were great buses to drive (but then to many bus drivers of my acquaintance A Fast Bus=A Good Bus. The main complaint seemed to be that they didn’t like the driving position, with the raked steering wheel (i.e. different to what they were used to) and that the cab roof was too low and had a prominent section of trunking passing across it just above where the driver’s head would be, causing taller drivers to constantly be striking their heads on it. Otherwise they would have to lower the seat to the point where they had to adopt an uncomfortable posture. Speaking purely as a passenger with enthusiast tendencies at the time, I thought they were marvellous vehicles. Even Hilditch later went on to imply that it was a shame at the time he sold them that he hadn’t known that his undertaking would shortly afterwards take over Todmorden JOC with its requirement for low-height double deckers – so even he must have still have harboured positive thoughts about them. Could there have been a certain amount of pressure within the NBC/APT part of the JOC to help West Riding out with Wulfrunian replacements and slightly raise the age profile of the fleet with these comparatively new buses (considering all the older Lodekkas they were having to take on) and it just seemed like a good idea at the time – especially if they’d offered a good price for them ? Who knows ?
John Stringer
14/09/17 – 07:01
Dave – I now live 50 miles from Cork City and was actually there yesterday. I think the governing factor behind the CIE van in ’75 would have revolved around the fact that Ireland only established bespoke bus/coach licences comparatively recently. With trailers already a reality, anyone being tested without a trailer on the back of the vehicle would have received a simple ‘D’ entitlement. Now, old fogeys like me, as long as we took our tests on a decker with manual box, would be entitled to an ‘All Types PSV’ which was literally converted to ‘D+E’ when trailers became recognised. When I arrived here in 2007, and not being averse to a few extra Euros in my pocket, I spotted an ad in the local paper for D+E Drivers to drive a tourist road train round a local town. I got the job and found the other, main driver was also English. Any Irish drivers had worked in the UK where they, too, got an old ‘All Types’ licence but actual native D+E licences were as rare as hen’s teeth and I’m suspecting CIE had no option but to use a separate vehicle if they had no D+E drivers.
Nick Turner
15/09/17 – 06:37
An enlightening posting, John. However, several batches of Lodekkas had the SCG semi auto four/five speed gearbox, and this driveline must have incorporated a step down box in the transmission, reversing the direction of rotation, unless an intermediate cog was used to turn it back the “right” way. Does anyone on here know anything about the Bristol/SCG setup? As for the Dennis engineer’s singular secrecy, perhaps he was out of his depth himself, and didn’t want the customer to witness his struggles. The Lodekka/Loline driving position issue is often debated, and surely comes down to a matter of familiarity – the unusual is generally unpopular with bus drivers (enthusiast types like us are exceptions, of course). All I can say is that I liked it.
Roger Cox
15/09/17 – 06:39
The Routemaster, having a conventional height chassis and the gearbox remotely mounted towards the back axle, has much more room for cooling air to flow around it. Unlike the Loline which hasn’t. That could have also been a factor.I assume, because of constraints of space under the chassis, the Loline and the Lodekka had their semi auto gearboxes close coupled to the engine, under the stairs, where air flow over them would be even more restricted. Maybe it would have been kinder in retrospect, to have ripped the semi auto boxes out and retro fitted them with constant mesh units. Although, given the hilly terrain of Halifax, that may have created more problems than answers. It would be interesting to know how the West Riding Auto Co. got on with their acquired Lolines. Maybe someone out there knows. Regarding the Dennis fitter. If you are called upon to solve a problem, but are mainly used to working on refuse disposal vehicles and not too sure how to go about working on a bus and its added complications, it must be tempting to avoid public scrutiny, retain an air of mystique, and hide what you are doing from people, who you feel may know far more than you do. But I bet the Lolines must have given him many sleepless nights! Regarding the reversal of drive through the transfer box into the gearbox on a Loline/Lodekka reminds me of a story. In the mid 1970s the Northern General Transport Group, found themselves short of serviceable vehicles, which prompted them to acquire a number of ex Crosville Bristol LD6Bs. It was not long however before the driving staff were complaining about their low power Bristol AVW engines and slow change constant mesh ‘boxes. In an attempt to remedy this the engineering staff successfully managed to fit a Leyland 0600 engine into one of these Lodekkas. However they must have forgotten about the transfer box and its reversal of drive, as they ended up with one forward and five reverse gears. Under those circumstances I do not know whether you would be tempted to laugh or cry!
John Anderson
15/09/17 – 06:40
The lack of DE licences in Eire might have been a factor in 2007, but surely not in ’75 when Dave saws the CIE container. D and DE categories only came into being in June 1990 before that HGV and PSV licences were separate documents.
John Lomas
16/09/17 – 06:51
My reasoning, John, is that, whereas I’m told the UK introduced bespoke PSV licences in 1931, it could have been well into the ’70s before they were brought in in Ireland and, if they were already aware that trailers existed, there MAY have been some sort of exclusion written into them. I honestly don’t know, so it could have simply been that CIE didn’t have vehicles with tow hooks or trailers to put on them. As something of a side issue, I remember petrol companies advertising for tanker drivers with a note ‘PSV drivers preferred’ because, in those days, you could drive 5,000 gallons of petrol around on a car licence.
Nick Turner
16/09/17 – 06:52
Roger Burdett’s comment about terrain deserves further exploration. The BEA Routemasters were dedicated to one service which involved sustained high-speed running, without, I imagine, a lot of gear changing. I wonder also if perhaps they had dedicated drivers. The Halifax Lolines were purchased for a long-distance contract, but were also used on local work in hilly terrain, for which their gearing must have been wildly unsuitable. Drivers switching between high and low geared vehicles do not always make the necessary adjustment in driving style. I certainly experienced this every evening going home from work in Bristol, when a cascaded RELH was allocated to one trip on a service otherwise worked by RELLs. None of the drivers seemed to know what to do with it, and the transmission must have suffered significant punishment from being in too high a gear most of the time.
Peter Williamson
17/09/17 – 06:50
A few observations about the operation of the BEA and later BA Routemasters. Whilst geared for high speed running, the first 4.4 miles from the Cromwell Rd Terminal to the end of the M4 was through London Traffic which, even in the early days of the service, could be very slow. The motorway sector to the airport was just over 9.5 miles but though the vehicles could attain 70 mph, they rarely did. From personal observation regularly driving that stretch of the M4 between 1967 and 1976 and, from time to time using the service, 50-60 mph was the norm, as traffic permitted on the motorway sector. The first trailers were built by Marshalls. With different baggage limits in those days, a full bus could be pulling a fully laden trailer with a gross weight of 2 tons. The trailers were replaced in 1973 when check in was moved to the airport.
Phil Blinkhorn
17/09/17 – 06:51
The semi-automatic Lodekka had its gearbox amidship, there being a raised cover beneath one of the offside pairs of seats. The Loline, I am not sure about, but a photograph of the flywheel and step down gear cover in “A Further Look At Buses” (G.G.Hilditch) shows that, next in line, is a U/J and shaft, thereby implying a remote gearbox.
Allan White
18/09/17 – 07:25
This has turned into a most fascinating thread: Front entrance Routemasters v Atlanteans; trailers v vans; BEA livery variations; Halifax Lolines; Loline and Lodekka transmission differences. Wonderful stuff and all grist to the mill. John(S), I enjoyed reading your comments regarding the semi-auto Dennnis Lolines and how and why they performed as they did (or didn’t!) at Halifax. Roger(C), you may well have hit the nail on the head with your point about the Dennis fitter being out of his depth with the foibles of the semi-auto Loline, hence his secrecy – or could he have held the view that “knowledge is power” and didn’t want to share it? Fortunately most manufacturers’ technicians I came into contact with were generally very helpful in troubleshooting, problem solving, offering advice and giving useful tips, but as the saying goes, “there’s always one”. Relating to Lodekka gearboxes, the design of the manual gearbox was quite clever. Most gearboxes on a conventional chassis of the time would have the input and output shafts on the same plane, rotating in the same direction, with a layshaft running underneath allowing the various gears to be selected. With the Lodekka having a dropped-centre rear axle and consequently requiring a lower transmission line to match up with it, the drive from the rear of the engine had to be taken down to a lower level in order to mate up with the prop shaft. Bristol did this in effect by using the gearbox layshaft as an output shaft. The input shaft remained at the usual level, but the layshaft beneath now became the output shaft, giving the required drop for the transmission line. (The engine also sloped down slightly to the rear and across slightly to the offside to assist with this). However, by utilising the layshaft in this way, the direction of drive from the output end was reversed, but as the dropped-centre rear axle took the drive from the lower level back up to wheel-centre level by means of an extra gear, the correct rotation of drive to the wheels was restored. Simples! (I do hope all this makes some sense). The manual gearbox was bolted onto the rear of the engine. On rear entrance Lodekkas it was partly beneath the rearward facing seat for five behind the front bulkhead, whereas on front entrance models there was a small protruding cover on the front bulkhead at floor level to accommodate the shape of the gearbox. When semi-automatic transmission became an option on the front entrance Lodekka in late 1966 (the last year of rear-entrance Lodekka production), the semi-auto gearbox was squarer and a little bulkier than the manual version, and couldn’t be mounted in the usual position. Bristol solved the problem by mounting the semi-auto ‘box remotely under the floor partway down the offside of the chassis. (Locating the semi-auto ‘box under the stairs was not really an option, as on F-series Lodekkas that position was taken up by the fuel tank). As Allan mentions, a shallow cover under a pair of seats on the offside gave the game away as to the transmission type. In order to bring the drive down from fluid flywheel to prop shaft level, Bristol used a pair of transfer gears behind the fluid flywheel, which gave rise to the distinctive transmission whine of the semi-auto FLFs. I am unfamiliar with the transmission layout of the semi-auto Loline, but it sounds like it may have been similar in principle to that of the semi-auto Lodekka. Peter, you may be on to something regarding Roger(B)’s comment about terrain being a factor in the Lolines’ reliability problems. Presumably they would have had higher ratio rear axles for their higher speed duties, but which would have made them sluggish on town work. Does anyone know if West Riding considered fitting lower ratio diffs to improve reliability and performance or had they settled down by then on suitable routes? Also, does anyone know of any problems encountered with the semi-auto FLFs, and if so, what were the remedies?
Brendan Smith
21/09/17 – 06:34
The statement by Geoffrey Hilditch in in his book “A Further Look At Buses” suggesting that the five speed gearboxes of the Halifax Lolines were unique to the batch was certainly true when the vehicles were delivered, as the semi auto version of the FLF Lodekka was still several months in the future. However, Dennis had pioneered a four speed semi automatic transmission option right at the beginning of Loline III production in 1961, when it supplied a solitary example to Belfast, and built another for the China Bus Company. A year later the semi auto demonstrator EPG 179B appeared. It must be the case, therefore, that the semi automatic drive line, including the step down gear train, was designed by Dennis. The step down gearing must have been quite costly to produce, particularly since only three examples were made up to the delivery of the five Halifax Lolines in February/March 1967. The Halifax order was preceded by a batch of eight (constant mesh) buses to Reading in December 1966 which marked the resumption of Loline production after a gap of no less than 13 months. These Reading Lolines were fitted with the Bristol gearbox and rear axle, whereas all previous Lolines had Dennis’s own gearbox and axle options. The Halifax Lolines also had Bristol rear axles. By late 1966 it must have been apparent to the Guildford firm that the limited future demand for the Loline did not justify the resumption of manufacturing penny numbers of its own gears and axles when entirely suitable Bristol components could be bought off the shelf. One wonders, then – did Dennis really retain all the casting/tooling equipment from five years previously just to manufacture a mere five more of the complicated step down gear train behind the flywheel, which surely cannot have been a cost effective exercise for Dennis. We know that there was contact between Dennis and Bristol during the Loline production period. Did Dennis subsequently make the step down gears for Bristol, or did the Guildford firm, perhaps, sell/pass on its design work and tooling to Bristol for its own semi auto version of the Lodekka? If only we knew for certain.
Roger Cox
22/09/17 – 07:11
Roger – Your mention of The China Bus Co (Hong Kong?) reminds me that that was the destination for the Southdown Guys (Arab IVs) when they were eventually pensioned off, but one modification they underwent for service there was some form of auto or semi auto gearbox, much to the disgust of most of us. Does this tie in in any way with your last post?
Nick Turner
27/09/17 – 06:16
Where did the problem with the Halifax Lolines transmission lie? Was it the fluid coupling, gearbox, back axle or all three, does anyone know. Eastern National’s semi auto FLF coaches must have been high geared also, although their operating territory flatter than Halifax. I would have thought that as Dennis presumably owned the the tooling for the step down gears they would supply Bristol, if an apropriate price could be be negotiated. But its little more than a guess.
John Anderson
24/10/17 – 06:51
Even today “airline” luggage presents problems for coach operations. For many years I was involved in dealing with moving passengers from flights by road and each task had to be looked at specifically. A 49 seat coach could often only carry around 25 passengers because of the weight and amount of passengers baggage and it really depended on the airline and the destination/origin on the passengers concerned. We used trailers and even drafted in Pickfords on occasions. For one task we undertook to move an entire cruise from Liverpool Docks by road to Southampton. For this job we drafted in a large number of Pickfords pantechnicons to carry the luggage as it was so much easier. Luggage was sorted into appropriate vehicles prior to loading and was delivered to the right points on the quay for immediate loading. Meanwhile some 40 coaches moved all the passengers without problem as the nightmare of baggage had been removed!
Bill Headley
26/01/19 – 06:42
In response to John Anderson, one particular feature of the Halifax Lolines that was a cause for trouble was that it was not a ‘pure’ fluid flywheel but the type with a lock up clutch: to paraphrase the late GGH, this was to give engine braking, but if done wrongly engine breaking is what happened.
Stephen Allcroft
07/10/19 – 07:12
This picture now appears in an intriguing little book published by https://www.safehavenbooks.co.uk called ‘Seats of London’ by Andrew Martin, best known as the author of a series of novels about a Victorian railway detective, and also as the presenter of some informed (as distinct from ‘celebrity’ auto cue fronted) television programmes on railway subjects. It covers in great detail the many varied moquettes that have graced the seats of London’s trains, trams, buses and trolleybuses for over a century, and is a fascinating look into a hitherto unresearched world. Within Andrew Martin makes some references to Old Bus Photos, which he describes as, ‘an excellent website that does what it says on the tin’.
London Transport 1965 AEC Routemaster Park Royal H40/32R
OBP seems yet to have a picture of Routemasters in the Country Area livery, so here is one. RML 2308, delivered to London Transport in November 1965, is seen at Biggin Hill in the following year. These green buses, which totalled one hundred in two batches of fifty, RML 2306- 2355 in 1965 and RML 2411 -2460 in 1966, were all powered by the AEC AV590 engine de-rated to 115bhp, the same setting used in the earlier RT type, though the RML was 5cwt heavier. Semi automatic gearboxes were fitted rather than the fully automatic variety used in the Central Bus Routemaster fleet. The 410 ran between Bromley and Reigate on an hourly headway, with intervening “short” journeys between Bromley and Biggin Hill; the picture above shows RML 2308 operating such a “short”. Because of a low railway bridge near Oxted station, the 410 route was run for many years by lowbridge double deckers, notably by the “Godstone” STLs ((Godstone being the operating garage) and then by the RLH class (20 diverted Regent IIIs from a Midland General order for 30, and a further 56 built for LT). In the early 1960s LT(CB&C) yearned to standardise the Godstone fleet on RTs, and became impatient about the delays to the promised lowering of the roadway beneath the Oxted bridge. I was then a clerk in the South Divisional Office at Reigate, and pointed out that the offending bridge could be circumnavigated easily via Station Road East, then under the high bridge on the A25, and back into Oxted via East Hill Road. This solution was eagerly leapt upon, and RTs replaced the Godstone RLH fleet in November 1964. This allowed full interworking of the routes 409 (West Croydon – Godstone – Forest Row) 410 (Bromley – Godstone – Reigate) and 411 West Croydon – Godstone – Reigate). When the roadway under the Oxted Station bridge was ultimately lowered some time later, the 410 reverted to its original route. The LT Country Bus business passed to the National Bus Company in January 1970 under the name London Country. In 1978, with Routemaster mechanical spares becoming akin to hens teeth, and London Transport snapping up such parts as did become available, the entire London Country RML fleet was sold to LT, who repainted most of the vehicles red for service in London, though RMLs 2306, 2337, 2417, 2420, 2421, 2423, 2424, 2425, 2426, 2427, 2433, 2436, 2438, 2448, 2449, 2458 and 2459 were immediately scrapped for spares. In the early 1990s LT replaced all the original power plants in the survivors with Iveco and Cummins engines, RM 2308 suffering the inflicted indignity of a Cummins motor in 1993. It continued to serve London Transport until its withdrawal in March 2004.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox
02/12/19 – 06:37
In actual fact, the Central London RM’s and RML’s had an either/or gearbox. If top gear was selected when stationary, the bus would be in automatic mode, however, the driver had the option of driving them as a semi auto, and changing gear manually. Unless fully loaded, or pulling away uphill, second was usually selected to pull away. It may well be that in later life they were all converted to fully auto, but they weren’t when new.
Ronnie Hoye
02/12/19 – 09:46
The Central Bus Routemasters had fully automatic gearboxes with manual over-ride, a feature of auto boxes that continued into the later age of buses with auto transmissions by ZF and Allison, though not with the (dreadful) three speed Voith. Nowadays it seems that this feature has gone for buses, and the driver’s only over-ride option is kick-down. The Country area RMCs, RMLs and RCLs were semi auto only.
Roger Cox
03/12/19 – 06:30
I don’t know if its the way they’re set up, but some buses are awful. They seem to snatch when they change up, and lurch when changing down. The poor driver always gets the blame, but in reality there’s not a lot He/She can do about it. Driver properly, a bus with a manual box, be it three pedals or semi auto, will always give a smoother ride than an automatic.
Ronnie Hoye
03/12/19 – 06:32
I had the pleasure, until recently, when prevented by ill health, of being a regular driver of RML 2440 a refurbished and re-engined bus – owned by Peter Cartwright. This most definitely was of the Fully automatic type. The coaches were semi-auto only – RMC and RCL.
David Oldfield
03/12/19 – 09:15
RML 2440 was sold by LCBS to London Transport in June 1979. It then went into Aldenham for conversion to LT specifications, including the addition of full auto operation of the gearbox before entering service as a red bus. In ‘Country’ service it was semi auto only.
Roger Cox
06/12/19 – 06:51
Your suggestion, Roger, about avoiding the low bridge at Oxted, which presumably was not greatly disadvantageous to passengers, is typical of a situation whereby nobody thinks of a solution for decades and it’s staring them in the face! It certainly seems odd to my eyes in seeing a bus routed for 410 which is not lowbridge. I’m sure I’ve said before that the unique lowbridge STL’s (always with their sliding doors open, to avoid being illegal) would appear from time to time at Morden to cover overhauls of the lowbridge red D’s on the 127 and latterly lowbridge Tilling Bristol K’s, sometimes green and sometimes red! With the ex-Romford Green Line D’s coming to Merton Garage, which took a while to repaint them into red, pre-war RT’s on the 93 and Maidstone Corporation Daimler CWG6’s, Morden Station’s Forecourt was was a real hotchpotch of colour, types and companies. Wonderful!
Chris Hebbron
08/12/19 – 06:18
There is a lot of truth in what Chris says, especially in large organisations. People become blinkered, because things have always been done in a certain way. A new employee with fresh set of eyes can often reveal new ways of doing things, that no one has previously thought of. It’s all a bit like the Hans Christian Aderson’s “The King’s New Suit of Clothes”. Send for Danny Kaye!
Mr Anon
09/12/19 – 06:25
Ah, Danny Kaye. I always recall “The Court Jester” – The constant muddling up of “The pellet with the poison’s in the vessel with the pestle; the chalice from the palace has the brew that is true!” Classic!
Chris Hebbron
09/12/19 – 12:20
Chris, if memory serves the quote from Danny Kaye went something like, “The flagon with the dragon is the chalice with the malice, the vessel with the pestle is the brew that is true”. How do I remember that?
East Yorkshire Motor Services 1966 AEC Renown 3B3R Park Royal H38/30F
This was taken at Flamborough on 12 June 1968 in glorious sunshine and about to head off on a Bridlington cross town service. The top deck has the characteristic East Yorkshire inward taper to allow safe passage through the North Bar at Beverley and what an elegant and distinctive livery!! This must have been the last batch of front engined buses for East Yorkshire.
I know that the AV590/AH590 engines were a little suspect and that the Regent III/RT was better regarded but I still don’t think you can do much better than the Regent V. [Sheffield’s certainly acquitted themselves well in the mountains close to – and in – the Peak District.] After the commercially unsuccessful Bridgemaster came the low floor Regent V – otherwise known as the Renown. I was particularly fond of the North Western beasts which batted down the A34 during my time as a student in Manchester. How true, though, about the elegant livery of EYMS. The Bridgemaster was ungainly and almost ugly. The similar body on the Renown was just different enough that I think it avoided the vices of its big brother. It was the right bus at the wrong time, though. Time and the Atlantean overhauled it – and then came the Fleetline as well.
David Oldfield
Some of the 1966 East Yorkshire Renowns were swapped for some older Fleetlines with the Northern General Group in the early days of the NBC. Many of these ended up in NBC yellow as they ran in the Tyne and Wear PTE area. The sharp eyed may spot one in the film version of the Likely Lads
Chris Hough
Quite prescient, that. Many big fleets dual sourced and many, like Sheffield, went over to Daimler Fleetlines from AEC Regent Vs and Renowns. Although AEC deckers lasted to the end (1968/9), like most other half-cabs, they were a spent force by 1966 – very few being delivered in the last few years. [Regrettably, much the same thing happened with the Reliance about ten years later. Killed off for an inferior life-form. Tragic!]
David Oldfield
I always thought the Renowns bodied by builders outside the AEC/PRV group were very handsome buses. The East Lancs examples of Leigh Leicester and West Bridgford spring to mind The later NCME examples used by City of Oxford were also a smart vehicle.
Chris Hough
I remember reading, when AEC’s intention to build the Renown was first announced, that it was to replace the Regent V as well as the Bridgemaster. At a time of dwindling sales for front-engined buses, rationalisation did make a sort of sense. I imagine that the reason it didn’t come to pass was because, once built, the Renown was probably too pricey for operators who didn’t really need the low floor, and would have driven traditional Regent V customers to Leyland.
Peter Williamson
Chris. I couldn’t agree with you more about Leigh and W Bridgford’s East Lancs Renowns. very handsome. Peter. You’re probably right about the expense. Bristol had a guaranteed customer base and so achieved it with the Lodekka. Strange that Bristol managed two world beaters (Lodekka and RE) in particular market segments where the two giants (AEC and Leyland) could hack it.
David Oldfield
04/10/11 – 21:06
I was at Northern’s Percy Main depot at the time the Renown’s arrived. By that time most of our half cabs had gone, but we still had a few PD2’s & 3’s. They all had sliding cab doors on the inside that opened towards the front, however, the cab door on a Renown is on the outside and opens back over, a few drivers found to their cost that when going through the wash the cab door had to be held firmly shut or the brushes could quite easily open it and leave the driver a bit on the damp side.
North Western Road Car 1964 AEC Renown 3B3RA Park Royal H42/30F
This former North Western bus still in its original livery but with SELNEC (Cheshire) fleetnames is at the Norfolk Arms terminus in Glossop in May 1972 not long after North Western was split between SELNEC, Trent and Crosville. This was one of the second batch of these buses bought by North Western in this case with forced ventilation evidenced by the lack of opening windows. I wonder how effective this was in dispersing the cigarette smog more or less standard on the upper decks of buses in those days. I pass this location from time to time and wonder at how there could have been a busy bus terminus at such a busy location.
The Norfolk Arms was busy and similar to the LPTB Hounslow trolleys, the traffic signals were controlled by the driver when ready to depart. I think it was mounted on the pole just by the driver’s cab in the picture. This turned the High St W and E, Victoria St and Norfolk St lights to red and then the bus would sweep out. I have it on good authority this led to at least one conductor being left behind. The old North Westerns from Glossop had a few characters.
Mike Franks
28/08/12 – 18:03
I felt bereft, as a student in Manchester, missing my AECs from STD, SUT and the local coach operators. Luckily North Western plied down the Wilmslow and Palatine Roads in student land. It might have been a Fleetline or a Loline but my day was always made when one of these Renowns turned up to take me home. These PRV bodies have, unfairly in my opinion, been called ugly. Compared with Bridgemasters – especially the forward entrance version – these were positively beautiful, and in their own right were better looking than many contemporaries.
David Oldfield
28/08/12 – 18:04
When NBC was set up many fleets were shuffled around like decks of cards, and Northern General was no exception. At Percy Main ‘Tynemouth and Wakefields’ we had a number of Daimler Fleetlines sent off to different areas and got all sorts in return, among the number were six Renown’s that came from East Yorkshire’s fleet. I was in the minority but I quite liked them, especially if you got one on the likes of the 306 or 308 where you had some long gaps between stops, but they could be hard work on some of the town service routes that stopped at every other lamp post.
Ronnie Hoye
29/08/12 – 07:59
I have to agree with David that this version of the Park Royal body, combined with North Western’s style of applying the livery, is FAR better than the version on the Bridgemaster or on Southampton’s Regents and PD2As. Those things were little better than shoe boxes with windows. It’s not far off the style Oxford had on their …CWL Regents, and it really was quite good!
Pete Davies
29/08/12 – 08:00
I agree with David that the Park Royal Renowns were a big improvement on the Bridgemaster but I wouldn’t go as far as to say they were beautiful. The only Renowns that can justify that accolade in my opinion were the East Lancs bodied versions operated by Leigh Corporation. There were both rear and forward entrance versions in a wonderful blue and cream livery. Fortunately one of the forward entrance vehicles is still with us at Boyle Street museum in Manchester.
Philip Halstead
29/08/12 – 08:02
Wearing my driver’s hat, I can imagine a Fleetlines’s attraction for stop start over a manual AEC – much as I personally prefer the latter. Significantly, the North Western Renowns had been “downgraded” from long trunk routes, only to be reinstated by Crosville when they had taken over the Cheshire operations. They claimed they were better out on the open road and could maintain “a head of steam”!
David Oldfield
29/08/12 – 10:17
Philip. I did say compared with the Bridgemaster. I would definitely agree with you about the Leigh buses. I used them on the Warrington service when I was doing my post-graduate teacher training at Padgate in the mid ’70s. One or two were still in blue and cream but orange and white was the order of the day. [For new vehicles, I think SELNEC/GMT orange and white was actually quite good even though it did spoil older vehicles in “better” municipal colours.]
David Oldfield
29/08/12 – 12:24
As I’ve already said I quite liked the Renown’s, but by the time they came to us most of the routes for which they would have been ideally suited had either gone over to, or were in the process of being changed to OPO, as for them having “a head of steam” they could clip on a bit, and unlike the PD3’s, where after a prolonged spell of stop start braking where the brakes become a tad warm and tend to fade, you could guarantee the Renown’s would stop when asked to.
Ronnie Hoye
29/08/12 – 12:24
East Lancs also bodied Renowns for Leicester in both front and rear entrance versions on of the front entrance ones regularly appeared on the rally circuit 190 DBC 190C. My own favourite Renowns were the ones owned by East Yorks in their traditional livery complete with modified upper deck window pillars to negotiate Beverly Bar.
Chris Hough
29/08/12 – 12:26
Regarding the beautiful East Lancs-bodied Leigh Renowns, Philip Halstead mentions there is a forward entrance example preserved at the Manchester Museum. Their rear entrance Renowns were always great favourites of mine ever since I saw the front and rear view photographs of one of them in Buses Illustrated when new. In 1976 I bought 28 (1975 TJ) for preservation from GMPTE, but in the 1980’s sold it and it then passed through several subsequent owners – maintaining a very low profile in the process. Only last week I learned that it been acquired by Tony Blackman for continued preservation, and who knows…..maybe operation in his Yorkshire Heritage Buses wedding hire fleet, though I do hope that it doesn’t turn black and white in the process. The beautiful azure blue and cream Leigh livery would be very much in demand by would-be happy couples I would imagine – it would match the bridesmaids’ dresses and floral arrangements !
John Stringer
30/08/12 – 06:49
Leigh 28 at Luddenden Foot, it has been working hard this summer for Yorkshire Heritage Buses. This shot was on her first day in service and as can be seen it is in black & white John.
Geoff S
30/08/12 – 07:09
Here is a picture of fellow Renown AJA 129B in Manchester, en route to Alderley in true North Western days. I have to admit that personally I much preferred the North Western Loline IIIs to the Renowns in both appearance and performance, but it would be nice to be able to detect something of the variety and individuality of the psv designs of those times in the present day crop of tediously indistinguishable bus types.
Roger Cox
31/08/12 – 07:33
Thanks Geoff S. for sending the photo. I hadn’t realised its restoration had advanced so far, I may well then have seen it at a distance and mistaken it for the ex-Southampton Regent V. As for the livery……….I’ll say no more.
John Stringer
31/08/12 – 09:35
Black marks for the new livery, then, John?
David Oldfield
31/08/12 – 09:45
Is black a good colour for a wedding or do they do funerals as well.
Spencer
So where have you been for the past year and a bit? Have you forgot how to send emails?
Peter
31/08/12 – 12:28
It’s a dual-purpose vehicle, Spencer; white for weddings; black for funerals!
Chris Hebbron
31/08/12 – 12:29
Tony Blackman’s “new” livery is in fact that of Lockey of West Auckland, and presumably was prompted by his acquisition of a full-fronted Regent V/Park Royal which (although new to East Kent) had been operated by that famous County Durham independent. That particular vehicle also carries Lockeys titles while the rest of the heritage fleet don’t. We all have a lot to thank Tony for – in my personal case for an unforgettable ride through the Mersey Tunnel on his ex-Halifax Regent III. What a pity that his revived Halifax JOC no longer operates stage services in the original glorious livery!
Neville Mercer
31/08/12 – 12:30
I suppose so David, but the thought of how it could have looked in its proper livery leaves me feeling blue.
John Stringer
31/08/12 – 12:32
The black and cream livery used by Yorkshire heritage buses is derived from the colours on a former East Kent AEC Regent V which is in the livery of its last owner Lockey of St Helens Auckland I saw the ex Darlington Guy saloon in the livery recently and it looked very good indeed. Better in a livery than a scrap yard!
Chris Hough
02/09/12 – 07:10
The trouble with Bridgemasters and lowheight Renowns was that there was no inward tapering at the front, creating a profile that was squat and square. That’s why the Beverley Bar treatment is such an improvement – it adds a much-needed bit of shape. Don’t forget Northern Counties www.flickr.com/
Peter Williamson
03/10/12 – 06:07
I used to drive these Renowns, 127b, & 129b, in the 60s at the North Western Altrincham Depot , a nice drive but a bit on the ‘Bouncy’ side!!
Roger Williams
Vehicle reminder shot for this posting
13/11/12 – 08:44
I was a summer guard with NWRCC at Glossop Garage between 1960 and 1962. It was the guard that operated the lights at the Norfolk Arms terminus and you had to be mighty quick to get back to the platform, clutching Setright and money bag to grasp the platform pole before the driver moved off. Bristol K5G’s were OK but a PD2 was fast off the mark and you held on like grim death for the swing round. Those were the days – swinging loads on the old 125 to Manchester and overloads on the 85 to Buxton on summer days. It was a great company with great mates at Glossop depot. Public service at its best!
Roger Chadwick
13/11/12 – 12:57
Roger, be thankful it was a PD2 and not a trolleybus or you’d have been left standing.
Ronnie Hoye
23/11/12 – 10:03
Roger, Myself and two colleagues have been researching the North Western driver and conductor duties. Would you have kept any information when you worked at Glossop in the 60’s
Keith Hampton
22/01/13 – 06:33
Roger, Being one of the Two colleagues that Keith refers to can you supply any names of staff at all. All part of an on going, and growing, North Western project of ours.
King Alfred Motor Services 1964 AEC Renown 3B2RA Park Royal H44/31F
595 and 596 LCG are AEC Renown 3B2RA vehicles with Park Royal H72F bodywork from the fleet of King Alfred Motor Services of Winchester, and date from 1964. They are both seen during one of the famous Running Days on 1 January 2009. Note the different applications of the livery.
Photograph and Copy contributed by Pete Davies
07/08/14 – 17:16
Are you sure it’s different livery and not different light? [The mirror is in a different position though.] They are a rather splendid pair. We await developments with a replacement for the New Year running days.
David Oldfield
08/08/14 – 06:02
According to the FoKAB website the event will be 3rd(eve)/4th May next year
Ian Comley
08/08/14 – 06:06
David, Thanks for your comment. Yes, it most certainly is a different green. The two photos were taken on the same day and in similar conditions. I compare it to the different applications of Aldershot & District or West Riding against Southdown.
Pete Davies
08/08/14 – 06:07
I do believe that 595 is lighter green.
Mike Morton
08/08/14 – 06:08
On my computer screen the greens look fairly similar or “why bother with two such similar colours” but on an ipad (“Retina” screen?) they look distinctly different.
Joe
08/08/14 – 06:09
Like David, I suspect that this is a trick of the light. I saw the King Alfred (R. Chisnell) fleet pretty frequently, and rode on it occasionally, when I lived in Hampshire from 1966 to 1975, and I recall only one shade of green being used. In fact, I did attend an interview in 1971 to see about a job in the Traffic Dept., but I was less than impressed with the outfit at that stage and didn’t pursue the matter. It was no surprise when it simply folded two years later.
Roger Cox
08/08/14 – 06:10
King Alfred did change their livery in the last years of operation. The upper picture of 595 LCG has the later (final) livery, all the same shade of green. The lower 596 LCG has the earlier livery with the darker shade of green at lower deck level. I think I have stated this correctly, unless the old grey cells are misfiring. (There was a coach livery too in the fifties and sixties, described as “eau-de-nil” – a sort of pale green, with a green stripe or flash related to bodywork embellishments).
Michael Hampton
13/08/14 – 07:05
According to “King Alfred Motor Services: the Story of a Winchester Family Business” (James Freeman & Robert Jowitt, Kingfisher, 1984), the later livery first appeared on the four Leyland Atlantean PDR1/2s (589-592) as a result of a mistake by the Roe paint-shop. Not only was the Brunswick green omitted from the lower panels, but the wheel centres were painted red – this was because these four vehicles followed on from a larger batch (101-125) of almost identical vehicles for West Riding, in whose livery they were mistakenly painted. Apparently, the Chisnell family (the Directors of KAMS) were quite taken with the result, and decided to adopt the simplified livery (although, I think, without the red wheel centres) as the fleet standard. This raises a number of questions! Firstly, how can a paint-shop get things so wrong? – even though the application of the KAMS livery was in the same proportions as WRAC’s surely the different destination apertures and application of KAMS fleet-names/legal lettering etc. might have suggested that the four Atlanteans concerned should have not received WRAC livery? . . . and what about final quality control? Secondly, the light green – was the KAMS light green exactly the same shade as WRAC green? – Freeman and Jowitts’ story suggests that the same light green was used on both the WRAC and KAMS buses. So. Were KAMS offered a cheaper price by Roe if they took the four Atlanteans to more-or-less West Riding specification as a follow-on order? – the bodies are more-or-less identical except for destination aperture, an extra horizontal grab-rail behind the near-side windscreen on the West Riding bodies, and the Atlantean badge on the front of the KAMS buses. Were KAMS persuaded also to use West Riding green as being very close to their own light green? . . . and was that mis-interpreted in the Roe paint-shop as an instruction to use WRAC livery, full-stop?
Crosville Motor Services 1963 AEC Renown 3B3RA Park Royal H43/32F
Despite acquiring a good number of AEC Reliance single deckers during the late 1950’s and early 1960’s, North Western Road Car Co. had opted for the Dennis Loline for its double deck purchases during that period. It then perhaps came as a surprise when in late 1963 they received eighteen AEC Renowns (964-981, VDB 964-981) with Park Royal H43/32F bodies, followed by a further fifteen (115-129, AJA 115-129B) with H42/30F bodies in 1964. However in 1972 the NWRCC depots and operations at Stockport, Oldham, Glossop, Altrincham and Urmston passed to the SELNEC PTE, a separate company – the SELNEC Cheshire Bus Company Ltd. – being created to take over these along with an appropriate number of vehicles. All other depots and operations were taken over by Crosville, except those at Buxton and Matlock which passed to Trent, and the Manchester depot which was retained as a coaching unit only before forming the basis of National Travel (North West) in 1974. The Renown fleet was divided between Crosville and SELNEC Cheshire, who soon repainted them into their own liveries. Here we see one of each – Crosville DAA501 (VDB 964) formerly 964 and SELNEC Cheshire 9122 (AJA 122B) formerly 122, posed for an enthusiasts’ visit to Northwich depot. The Crosville bus displays the recently introduced brighter green livery. AJA 122B was later withdrawn following a low bridge accident, but sold to Churchbridge Motors of Cannock, Staffordshire, who had it repaired by Lawton Coachworks and ran it in their blue and white livery for a time.
Photograph and Copy contributed by John Stringer
05/06/17 – 07:00
The change in vehicle policy by certain BET companies that became evident from about 1960 derived from BET central purchasing decisions which saw virtually all manufacturers other than AEC and Leyland being “delisted” as approved suppliers of heavyweight chassis, though Daimler was added later when the merits of the Fleetline in comparison with the early Atlantean became apparent. The last Dennis Lolines for North Western, which were delivered early in 1962, would have been ordered about a year before, and (excluding Aldershot & District) they were the the last company orders for that chassis. The A&D case is rather special in that the shareholding for that firm was split into three roughly equal parts, BET, THC and private ownership, which allowed a degree of independent policy in purchasing matters, hence the arrival of Lolines up to 1965.
Roger Cox
06/06/17 – 06:58
To amplify and expand on Roger’s comments, NWRCC’s purchase of the Renowns was the end of a saga started when, as part of he 1947 Transport Act, North Western found itself in the BET camp on 1/1/1948. Denied of its beloved Gardner engined Bristols, the last of which arrived in 1950,it worked with Atkinson to build a Bristol/Gardner clone. When the first small batch proved successful it applied to BET for a sanction to buy 100 more. When this was denied and NWRCC found themselves “stuck” with the groups AEC/Leyland purchasing policy, it had already decided to rebody the bulk of its Bristols and Gardner engined Guys. With double deckers forming the minority of the fleet the rebodied Bristols and Guys were added to by small batches of PD2s. By 1958 something more modern was needed and using Aldershot and District’s purchase of Dennis Lolines as a precedent, bought two batches of the Lodekka clone at a time when BET’s low height double decker preference was the Bridgemaster. Given the poor response to the Bridgemaster, AEC refined its ideas and produced the Renown. By this time many BET companies had bought the low height version of the Atlantean and NWRCC had tried both Atlantean and Fleetline demonstrators. With its low height potential, a straight through upper deck gangway and, more importantly, a Gardner engine, the Fleetline was NWRCC’s choice. For the third time in just over a decade the company found itself at odds with BET’s policy of ordering Leylands and AECs. Whilst the Atkinson episode ended with NWRCC’s Chief Engineer resigning, 1962 saw the order for Fleetlines agreed. But there was a quid pro quo. BET had discount arrangements with both AEC and Leyland and the take up of Renowns had not been enough to meet agreed targets. The first two Fleetline orders were reduced from the numbers required, the numbers being made up with Renowns and, with NWRCC’s single deck policy from 1962 being wedded to the Leyland Leopard, the company took a large batch of AEC Reliances which were offset for discount purposes against the reluctance of BET companies to purchase the Renown. As it turned out, the Renowns were very satisfactory. They also looked good in the Crosville livery as shown, the black wheels and mudguards contrasting with the green.
Phil Blinkhorn
07/06/17 – 05:35
I never realised the unusual financial makeup of A&D, Roger. And London Transport’s is another one. I assume it was in some sort of public ownership, yet it seemed to have shareholders, because Frank Pick resigned from his post in 1940 because he felt the they were not getting a fair deal at that time. If anybody can shed light on this, I’d appreciate it.
Chris Hebbron
07/06/17 – 05:37
A few extra points to Phil’s comprehensive comment. North Western was set up in 1924 when BAT and Tilling, who were then operating together in harmony, reallocated their resources in the area by forming the new company centred on Stockport. In practice, the Tilling philosophy prevailed in operating matters, and this was reflected in vehicle purchasing policies. Tilling-Stevens models were favoured during the late 1920s until 1931, by which time Tilling had ended its financial involvement with the Maidstone maker and acquired the Bristol Tramways & Carriage Company together with its manufacturing arm. Under Tilling’s abrasive new Chairman, J.F. Heaton, Bristol became the preferred chassis supplier for Tilling companies, including North Western, who adopted the make as standard from 1936. In 1942, the fractious association of BAT/BET and Heaton finally disintegrated, and companies were reallocated between the two groups. Rather surprisingly, given the strong Tilling direction of its management policies, North Western was allotted to the BET empire, but apart from some Guy wartime utilities, Bristol continued to be the chosen chassis make until nationalisation led to the withdrawal of that supplier from the open market. As Phil indicates above, North Western sought a “Bristol/Gardner clone” by approaching Atkinson, but BET top brass were having none of it, and the company had to conform with the AEC/Leyland regime of its group masters. Quite how North Western managed to succeed in its choice of the Dennis Loline (I quibble at the description “Lodekka clone” – the Loline III in particular incorporated several design improvements over the Bristol) I know not, but the Loline proved to be a good machine for North Western. More might well have been ordered had BET not enforced its AEC/Leyland diktat. Another factor could have been the decision taken by Dennis in 1962 to withdraw the Loline from the market, but this might well have been a chicken and egg issue influenced by the enforcement of BET central policies, leaving Dennis with only the Municipal and Independent markets at its disposal. Dennis revoked that idea very quickly, and continued to supply the Loline up to 1967. A comparison of the respective merits of the Loline and the Renown inevitably reflects one’s personal preferences, but in only one feature can the Renown claim an advantage – the incorporation of a synchromesh gearbox making life easier for the driver. On the other hand, the Loline was offered with optional four or five speed gearboxes, and North Western had examples of both. The Renown came with four speeds only, and the North Western ones seem to have had quite a high rear axle ratio which might have left rather wide gaps between the gears on the road. Having driven the Loline III in service with A&D, I am well acquainted with the model’s refined qualities. My experiences of Bridgemasters and Renowns are limited to modest trips as a passenger on the City of Oxford examples, and the Renown seemed to give a rather pitchy ride quality. The harsh engine noise, screaming gearbox note and juddery clutch action reminded me of the closely related Regent V type that I did drive around Halifax. The design was inferior also in that, in the somewhat tortuous driveline, the separate location of the gearbox on the offside behind the driver’s cab dictated the intrusive positioning of the staircase into the entrance platform. I remember the slightly sunken lower deck gangway of the Bridgemaster (like the LD Lodekka and Loline I and II) but cannot now recall if this feature was true also of the Renown – the Loline III had a completely flat floor throughout. (Like much in life, you pays your money and you takes your choice, but I know which I prefer.)
You are quite right, Chris. The London Passenger Transport Board financial structure was not the same as that of outright nationalisation, which did not occur until the London Transport Executive was set up on 1st January 1948. When the LPTB was formed in 1933, the companies taken over, notably the Underground Group and Tilling’s London operations, were “bought” partially with cash and partially by the issue of interest bearing stock – C stock – authorised by the enabling Act, which meant that those former businesses continued to earn yields from their holdings. However, by 1938, the net financial performance of the Board was so weak (partly because of the truly massive investment in high standard Underground equipment and buildings, bus fleet renewal, and a serious strike in 1937) that the future of the entire LPTB concept was temporarily placed in doubt. In the previous two years the Board paid only 4% instead of the agreed rate of 5.1% on the C stock held by the former transport operators, and suggestions were made that a receiver should be appointed run LPTB matters. In fact, the stockholders had not lost any capital value on their holdings as the purchasing terms in 1933 had been somewhat generous. Evolving international events in the months following, which escalated into WW2, led to attention being directed elsewhere, though clearly Frank Pick was not mollified. In the postwar years, London Transport became a component of the Labour government’s nationalisation programme.
Roger Cox
08/06/17 – 07:57
Roger, when I used to hang around Charles St in the late 1950s/early 1960s, I got to know a good number of people in the garage, workshops and offices. In those days there was a culture of encouraging young enthusiasts and I was told many tales by people who had served with the company from pre-war days. From what I was told, the company fought hard to be moved from BET to the Tilling empire once the ramifications of the 1947 Transport Act became clear and at one time was led to believe that a transfer would take place. The story goes that either Crosville or Cumberland, both major Leyland users, would take NWRCC’s place. Now I have never been able to prove the truth of the story with documentary evidence but given the sources, the enthusiasm of NWRCC for Bristol products and its continuing attempts to thwart BET’s purchasing policies it has a ring of truth. As far as calling the Loline a Lodekka clone is concerned, I understood all chassis were produced under licence and whilst the MK3 was very much a Dennis vehicle, the arrangement held. I doubt that NWRCC would have ordered any more Lolines. Its surrounding BET companies were already using Atlanteans and the Fleetline was on the wish list of some of them. Dennis’s temporary withdrawal of the type was probably co-incidental given the Fleetline trials prior to the withdrawal. As I said, and this comes from conversations as late as 1965, the Renowns were a quid pro quo situation and were not a Loline substitute.
Philip Blinkhorn
11/06/17 – 06:08
Chris, I think the last straw for Frank Pick was the compensation enforced by the government for taking control of the railways in wartime. The arrangements for repairs, including war damage, were also harsh. The railways accepted these conditions reluctantly but without protest as fears of an invasion were very much to the fore at the time. Bus services were also slashed with little thought at the outset of the differing conditions of the operators.
David Wragg
09/10/19 – 06:31
Just to add a couple of comments :- On the split of the Company 964 to 969 and 972 to 981 passed to Crosville, whilst 970 and 971 went to Selnec Cheshire. The Selnec Renown carried fleet number 1922 and not 9122. I believe the renumbering of the batch took place after the formation of GMT.
Leekensian
10/10/19 – 05:20
When I first started work the morning journey to Manchester on the 31 was always operated by North Western. Either by any of the Lolines, Renowns or Fleetlines. Without the best and fastest journeys were always those when one the Alexander Bodied Lolines were allocated with Renown operated journeys not far behind on performance
Halifax Corporation Transport and Joint Omnibus Committee 1954 AEC Reliance MU3RV202 Park Royal C41C
This shot is from the Roger Cox gallery contribution titled “Halifax Coaches” click on the title if you would like to view his Gallery and comments. The shot is shown here for indexing purposes but please feel free to make any comment regarding this vehicle either here or on the gallery.
